King at home among Dogs

[The Coon Dog]

Jon Pierik - The Age - 30 October

http://images.theage.com.au/2011/10/29/2739100/DB__20111029183353605555-420x0.jpg
The four new coaches at The Western Bulldogs for season
2012 - from left Steven King, head coach Brendan McCartney,
Shannon Grant and Rohan Smith.

WHILE he has barely had time to fit out his office at Whitten Oval, new Western Bulldogs assistant coach Steven King has already turned his mind to what he can do to help the club return to the finals next season.

King, the former ruckman who played 240 matches with Geelong and St Kilda, opted against remaining as an assistant with the Saints under new coach Scott Watters to link with a familiar face in rookie Bulldogs coach Brendan McCartney.

King, part of Geelong's 2007 premiership side, has a long history with McCartney, who helped shape the modern Cats dynasty that continues to this day. McCartney, at one stage, was the Cats' ruck coach, and helped King emerge as a club captain and No. 1 big man.

Article in full... (http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/king-at-home-among-dogs-20111029-1mpmn.html)

[ledge]

Looks like Wil is finally getting a go at settling in.

[LostDoggy]

If King can help Will become a big physical dominant AFL ruckman he will be a godsend.

[1eyedog]

If King can help Will become a big physical dominant AFL ruckman he will be a godsend.

It ain't gonna happen, but he can become a better player more consistently. It's Will's time, Ayce and Roughie are no where near up to it yet.

[Ghost Dog]

It ain't gonna happen, but he can become a better player more consistently. It's Will's time, Ayce and Roughie are no where near up to it yet.

State your case. Why not?

[chef]

State your case. Why not?

Because he would have established himself by now if he was ever going to.

[ratsmac]

I think (hope) Will can answer a lot of his critics next season. I really thought that he was going to have a big season this year but as we saw it didn't happen. I like Will and I hope McCartney and King can get the best out of him.
I really like this coaching panel, not sure why though. Maybe it's just the fresh new faces. But I do like the fact we have a good insight to Geelong's game tactics and Stkilda's tactics, two dominant teams over the last 5 or so years, with McCartney and King. Do they have the cattle though???

[1eyedog]

Because he would have established himself by now if he was ever going to.

This.

Will has played 115 games now and is turning 27. I understand that Jamar didn't come on until he was the same age but he had played 30 games less than Will has now when he really started to show some signs. Big men take time but I cannot see Will being a dominant ruckman in the AFL.

I am hoping that some continuity will improve his output and make him very competitive for us for the next few years while Ayce/Roughie continue their slow development.

[Ghost Dog]

This.

Will has played 115 games now and is turning 27. I understand that Jamar didn't come on until he was the same age but he had played 30 games less than Will has now when he really started to show some signs. Big men take time but I cannot see Will being a dominant ruckman in the AFL.

I am hoping that some continuity will improve his output and make him very competitive for us for the next few years while Ayce/Roughie continue their slow development.

Chef / 1eye
Agree, Will did not come along early in his career as we hoped. However, in recent times....
Do you or do you not think Will was unlucky to miss out on senior selection in 2011?

If he had been offered as a trade, do you think he would have been picked up rather quickly? I suspect so. His size makes for a very hard match up. We'll get a fair bit out of him if he performs with some consistency.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Minson is a better player than he is given credit for.

He was too much like Hudson to have them both in the same team, without Hudson in the way, lets see how he goes.

[Ghost Dog]

Because he would have established himself by now if he was ever going to.

You assume, but can't say

So let's toss up a few names of Big men / players who bloomed late...Leigh Brown, Podsiadly, Shane Mumford...
Wills problem is he often doesn't play to his strengths.

[chef]

You assume, but can't say

So let's toss up a few names of Big men / players who bloomed late...Leigh Brown, Podsiadly, Shane Mumford...

Has only just turned 25 and has been a very good player for the last two years, I don't think you should be comparing him to Will.

[chef]

You assume, but can't say

So let's toss up a few names of Big men / players who bloomed late...Leigh Brown, Podsiadly, Shane Mumford...
Wills problem is he often doesn't play to his strengths.

What are his strengths?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Has only just turned 25 and has been a very good player for the last two years, I don't think you should be comparing him to Will.

Unlike Minson who is a has been at 26?

[chef]

Unlike Minson who is a has been at 26?

To me Minson isn't a has been, he's a never was or will. But that's just my opinion and I would love nothing better than for him to make me look stupid.

But don't go comparing him to Mumford just because they have age(and that is it) in common. Mumford is arguably the best ruck in the league and has been a very good player from the time he started a the Cats.

[chef]

You assume, but can't say

So let's toss up a few names of Big men / players who bloomed late...Leigh Brown, Podsiadly, Shane Mumford...
Wills problem is he often doesn't play to his strengths.

His results speak for themselves IMO. Very good VFL player but not up to AFL standard.

[Desipura]

I have been waiting for that breakout year for Minson however it has never eventuated. No doubt he will play more regularly in 2012 due to Huddo moving on.
Will really should be better than he is given he has been in the AFL system for some 7-8 years.

[Ghost Dog]

Has only just turned 25 and has been a very good player for the last two years, I don't think you should be comparing him to Will.

2 out of three aint bad chef.
Let's see what Will offers us in 2012.
If Rocket were still here I would agree, more of the same to come. but for two reasons, I think he is a chance to see his stocks go up. 1. His role in the team is going to be under more scrutiny because of new coaching staff. Fresh eyes and a chance to re-assess his game.

2. With Huddo out and a developing side, he'll be able to assume more leadership and responsibility having a more available slot - more so than in the past. Got to be good for him. Either way, I feel it's unfair to write him off just yet.

Re his strengths, we have been underdone in the smaller, running, crumbing type bar Dahlhaus for sometime. Lacking in successful combinations at present in attacking half.
Am sure it's hard to find anyone with faith here in Will's abilities in f50 but can see his type working well in other teams ( Ohalpin, Brown in combination with smaller runners ) so can't see why it won't work for us.

Ok, so shoot me down, whatever. At least there is some logic here rather than just slapping the reject label on him when there is still time left on the clock - not to mention some faith from the coaching circle. These guys are not idiots.

[bornadog]

Are we at least one assistant short?

[KT31]

You assume, but can't say

So let's toss up a few names of Big men / players who bloomed late...Leigh Brown, Podsiadly, Shane Mumford...
Wills problem is he often doesn't play to his strengths.

Didn't bloom late, just grabbed his chance when a team finaly gave him a shot.

[bornadog]

Didn't bloom late, just grabbed his chance when a team finaly gave him a shot.

He was given a shot with Essendon (I think) but didn't make it. I think he is a late bloomer, but possibly could have played at AFL level at say 25 years old. It was only when he became the fitness coach at Geelong that he was given a shot by them. Perhaps his own fitness to play at AFL level was not up there when he was younger.

[KT31]

Are we at least one assistant short?

If we follow the Pie's lead, we are about ten short.:D

[GVGjr]

I have been waiting for that breakout year for Minson however it has never eventuated. No doubt he will play more regularly in 2012 due to Huddo moving on.
Will really should be better than he is given he has been in the AFL system for some 7-8 years.

2012 is his year to stand up and be counted and I'm happy to wait and see how he performs.
Roughead and Cordy aren't ready yet so I'm hoping Steven King can improve him

[Desipura]

2012 is his year to stand up and be counted and I'm happy to wait and see how he performs.
Roughead and Cordy aren't ready yet so I'm hoping Steven King can improve him
King will only be able to do so much. Not too sure he can improve his footy smarts, may be able to improve his positioning in a marking/ruck contest. I hope he at least is able to play some consistent footy for a whole season.

[GVGjr]

King will only be able to do so much. Not too sure he can improve his footy smarts, may be able to improve his positioning in a marking/ruck contest. I hope he at least is able to play some consistent footy for a whole season.

You make Minson sound like a lost cause and I don't see it that way. If King can improve Minson's marking that will be a huge benefit for the side and if he can make Roughead better around the ground then that will help significantly with his development.

I'm prepared to give Minson his chance.

[LostDoggy]

Minson -- not the greatest ruckman going around, but not the worst by a long shot. A solid, middle of the road ruckman is not the worst thing in the world. Coxs and Kings don't grow on trees -- it's not an either-or proposition for me unlike some here who seem to be saying that he should be delisted because he's not Mumford or Jamar (!), and I am happy as long as he's a consistent contributor (which he will be).

My biggest problem with Will is that he's a liability in defence against the gun forward rucks (Ottens, Nicnat, Cox etc.) but so was Huddo (and let's face it, most rucks struggle defensively against those guys) -- we just need a better tall defensive option when an opposition ruck goes forward. Will playing 20% ruck and giving us nothing else around the ground was a problem re: team balance. Will playing 80% in the ruck will be fine.

There are bigger problems on the list than Will.

[Desipura]

You make Minson sound like a lost cause and I don't see it that way. If King can improve Minson's marking that will be a huge benefit for the side and if he can make Roughead better around the ground then that will help significantly with his development.

I'm prepared to give Minson his chance.
I could argue you make King sound like he can turn him into something he never will be.
We have had a number of ruck/forward coaches who were not able to improve his marking.
That said, I too am prepared to give him a final chance.

[GVGjr]

I could argue you make King sound like he can turn him into something he never will be.
We have had a number of ruck/forward coaches who were not able to improve his marking.
That said, I too am prepared to give him a final chance.

It's not what I have said. King was a pretty good ruckman and Will has his chance to be the number one ruckman with us after spending a few years as Hudson's back-up. If King can make some subtle improvements with Will's ruckwork or to improve his marking around the ground then that will be good for the club and player.
I'm not 100% convinced that Will can be as good as we need him to be but I am convinced we need to give him a sustained go at it next season because we don't have the alternatives.

[bornadog]

It's not what I have said. King was a pretty good ruckman and Will has his chance to be the number one ruckman with us after spending a few years as Hudson's back-up. If King can make some subtle improvements with Will's ruckwork or to improve his marking around the ground then that will be good for the club and player.
I'm not 100% convinced that Will can be as good as we need him to be but I am convinced we need to give him a sustained go at it next season because we don't have the alternatives.

As you said earlier Roughhead and Cordy are not ready yet and Will is all we have, so no choice there.

Having said that, Will now has an opportunity to show us he can be the number one ruck and its all up to him whether he is willing to grasp that opportunity. I am confident that King is the right choice to coach him and I am sure he will learn alot.

[chef]

2 out of three aint bad chef.
Let's see what Will offers us in 2012.
If Rocket were still here I would agree, more of the same to come. but for two reasons, I think he is a chance to see his stocks go up. 1. His role in the team is going to be under more scrutiny because of new coaching staff. Fresh eyes and a chance to re-assess his game.

2. With Huddo out and a developing side, he'll be able to assume more leadership and responsibility having a more available slot - more so than in the past. Got to be good for him. Either way, I feel it's unfair to write him off just yet.

Re his strengths, we have been underdone in the smaller, running, crumbing type bar Dahlhaus for sometime. Lacking in successful combinations at present in attacking half.
Am sure it's hard to find anyone with faith here in Will's abilities in f50 but can see his type working well in other teams ( Ohalpin, Brown in combination with smaller runners ) so can't see why it won't work for us.

Ok, so shoot me down, whatever. At least there is some logic here rather than just slapping the reject label on him when there is still time left on the clock - not to mention some faith from the coaching circle. These guys are not idiots.

So if someone thinks he's not up to AFL standard after watching him play they have no logic in their opinion?

[chef]

2 out of three aint bad chef.
Let's see what Will offers us in 2012.
If Rocket were still here I would agree, more of the same to come. but for two reasons, I think he is a chance to see his stocks go up. 1. His role in the team is going to be under more scrutiny because of new coaching staff. Fresh eyes and a chance to re-assess his game.

2. With Huddo out and a developing side, he'll be able to assume more leadership and responsibility having a more available slot - more so than in the past. Got to be good for him. Either way, I feel it's unfair to write him off just yet.

Re his strengths, we have been underdone in the smaller, running, crumbing type bar Dahlhaus for sometime. Lacking in successful combinations at present in attacking half.
Am sure it's hard to find anyone with faith here in Will's abilities in f50 but can see his type working well in other teams ( Ohalpin, Brown in combination with smaller runners ) so can't see why it won't work for us.

Ok, so shoot me down, whatever. At least there is some logic here rather than just slapping the reject label on him when there is still time left on the clock - not to mention some faith from the coaching circle. These guys are not idiots.

Isn't that a team weakness, not one of Willies strengths?

To me, his weakness's are a lack of mobility, agility, speed, footy smarts and he isn't a great mark.

His strength would be his aggression at the contest(which can be a weakness when used in the wrong way) and his tap work. He is one of the better tap ruckmen in the league but he needs at least another string to his bow to command a best 22 spot.

I do hope he can add something else to his game as we don't have much depth in our rucking department and our drafting in this area isn't great.

[Ghost Dog]

Isn't that a team weakness, not one of Willies strengths?

To me, his weakness's are a lack of mobility, agility, speed, footy smarts and he isn't a great mark.

His strength would be his aggression at the contest(which can be a weakness when used in the wrong way) and his tap work. He is one of the better tap ruckmen in the league but he needs at least another string to his bow to command a best 22 spot.

I do hope he can add something else to his game as we don't have much depth in our rucking department and our drafting in this area isn't great.

Valid points. Much better than 'not up to AFL standard'.

Much maligned under Rocket, not a great ball user, but does make a contest for others to grab the thing and use it. My point is, he is going to look much better on field with the right kind of support / combination of players.

Some players simply don't get a look in and coaches have their favourites. Will wasn't one of Rocket's, that's for sure

[chef]

Valid points. Much better than 'not up to AFL standard'.

Much maligned under Rocket, not a great ball user, but does make a contest for others to grab the thing and use it. My point is, he is going to look much better on field with the right kind of support / combination of players.

Some players simply don't get a look in and coaches have their favourites. Will wasn't one of Rocket's, that's for sure

Fair enough, to me that sums it up perfectly.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I think Will can be an inspiring competitor.

He's not a good enough contested mark to count as a ruck/forward.

But as a No.1 Ruckman week in week out I think he can rise to be a powerful presence.

Was Hudson a threat sneaking/resting forward? No.

Will's time is now, and I have faith in him as a powerhouse smash and bash ruckman.
We all know Eade had his starting 22 locked in every week and changes were really only made for injuries or truly appalling long term form.
Hudson had the number one ruck role and that meant Will couldn't get a game.

I'm in his corner and have faith he will deliver.

[1eyedog]

I'm sorry I have more faith in Roughie being a dangerous forward/ruck than Will. Will has hard hands. His strengths are his competitive nature and desire for the contest, but this is also his down fall because he (at least appears) to give away a lot of free kicks. He has the ability to spark his team mates with something quite brilliant but then lets the coaching staff down by doing something stupid. He must be a frustrating player to coach. I think King can help grow his confidence, which must surely be low playing second fiddle to Hudson for so long. If King can do this, and sustain this, I think the battle is half won because it will create a vastly superior player to what we have thus far seen.

[LostDoggy]

Because he would have established himself by now if he was ever going to.

I don't agree, the beard was preferred to Will on many occasions and maybe undeservedly.

[Remi Moses]

I think Will can be an inspiring competitor.

He's not a good enough contested mark to count as a ruck/forward.

But as a No.1 Ruckman week in week out I think he can rise to be a powerful presence.

Was Hudson a threat sneaking/resting forward? No.

Will's time is now, and I have faith in him as a powerhouse smash and bash ruckman.
We all know Eade had his starting 22 locked in every week and changes were really only made for injuries or truly appalling long term form.
Hudson had the number one ruck role and that meant Will couldn't get a game.

I'm in his corner and have faith he will deliver.

Agree with this. Personally think Will won't make it ( hope I'm wrong)No more excuses for Big Will and if he doesn't come through it's time to go.

[Mofra]

His strength would be his aggression at the contest(which can be a weakness when used in the wrong way) and his tap work. He is one of the better tap ruckmen in the league but he needs at least another string to his bow to command a best 22 spot.
Get King to work on his ability to use his body to create space in close - arguably the biggest unique attribute a ruckman can bring to the side, and something I admit I underrated until I was playing ruck this year.

It's not pretty, doesn't get stats and is probably missed by most fans watching the game, but it makes a massive difference and Minson with his natural aggression should lap it up.

[immortalmike]

I don't agree, the beard was preferred to Will on many occasions and maybe undeservedly.
In 2011 yes, but for the bulk of Huddo's time he was one of the biggest (pun slightly intended) reasons we were top 4. Don't forget the year before we got Huddo we were 4th last and the year later we were top 4.


Get King to work on his ability to use his body to create space in close - arguably the biggest unique attribute a ruckman can bring to the side, and something I admit I underrated until I was playing ruck this year.

It's not pretty, doesn't get stats and is probably missed by most fans watching the game, but it makes a massive difference and Minson with his natural aggression should lap it up.

This was something Hudson did very, very well. We will miss this if Wil can't provide it.

[azabob]

Get King to work on his ability to use his body to create space in close - arguably the biggest unique attribute a ruckman can bring to the side, and something I admit I underrated until I was playing ruck this year.

It's not pretty, doesn't get stats and is probably missed by most fans watching the game, but it makes a massive difference and Minson with his natural aggression should lap it up.

Great point. Hudson was brilliant at this and this is probably the biggest reason he was ahead of Minson.

As you say hopefully Minson can master this.

I don't see why he can't as he appears to be willing to learn and isn't afraid of getting his hands dirty.

[divvydan]

There's no doubt in my mind that Minson is, in how he plays, a more natural number one ruckman than a relieving second ruckman/resting forward.

Just thinking back through his career, I can't really remember a time when he was the first choice ruckman for a sustained period of time, with Darcy, Street and Hudson all playing that role ahead of him.

[Ghost Dog]

Great point. Hudson was brilliant at this and this is probably the biggest reason he was ahead of Minson.

As you say hopefully Minson can master this.

I don't see why he can't as he appears to be willing to learn and isn't afraid of getting his hands dirty.

Well, I'm going out on a limb. Will seems to me a really intelligent young guy, who doesn't lack love of a contest, something the new coach is really keen on. I feel he will really respond to Bmac's more cerebral style of coaching in a 'teacherly' way.
Backing Will to eclipse his past efforts in 2012.

[1eyedog]

Get King to work on his ability to use his body to create space in close - arguably the biggest unique attribute a ruckman can bring to the side, and something I admit I underrated until I was playing ruck this year.

It's not pretty, doesn't get stats and is probably missed by most fans watching the game, but it makes a massive difference and Minson with his natural aggression should lap it up.

This is getting harder and harder to do for all ruckmen. The ones who try it are usually bereft of talent, too short and very heavy but I agree it is valuable because it not only creates space but it is the only way to combat the leap of Nic Nat and the sheer height of Sandilands. The trouble with Will is using his body and natural aggression usually always result in opposition free kicks. If King can teach it and more importantly Will can learn it all the better.

[Mofra]

This is getting harder and harder to do for all ruckmen. The ones who try it are usually bereft of talent, too short and very heavy but I agree it is valuable because it not only creates space but it is the only way to combat the leap of Nic Nat and the sheer height of Sandilands. The trouble with Will is using his body and natural aggression usually always result in opposition free kicks. If King can teach it and more importantly Will can learn it all the better.
Will is about where Hudson was when he started with the Crows - I certainly haven't shut the door on Minson improving, considering he is playing the no 1 ruck role (his more natural role) and has the most important attribute a ruckman can have - an appetite for the contest.

[1eyedog]

Will is about where Hudson was when he started with the Crows - I certainly haven't shut the door on Minson improving, considering he is playing the no 1 ruck role (his more natural role) and has the most important attribute a ruckman can have - an appetite for the contest.

If this is your opinion this is troubling. Huddo hadn't played a game of AFL when he was drafted to the Crows from Werribee as a 25 year old. Will has played 115 games of senior AFL footballer. Will has rucked a fair few times for us without Hudson with questionable results.

My thought is that there is not a lot of improvement left in Will and he is just filling in a gap until (if) Roughead/Cordy can find some aggression and ruck for us one day.

[1eyedog]

There's no doubt in my mind that Minson is, in how he plays, a more natural number one ruckman than a relieving second ruckman/resting forward.

Just thinking back through his career, I can't really remember a time when he was the first choice ruckman for a sustained period of time, with Darcy, Street and Hudson all playing that role ahead of him.

It's a sad story that the MC feel that Street is before you as the No. 1 ruckman.

[Bulldog Joe]

If this is your opinion this is troubling. Huddo hadn't played a game of AFL when he was drafted to the Crows from Werribee as a 25 year old. Will has played 115 games of senior AFL footballer. Will has rucked a fair few times for us without Hudson with questionable results.My thought is that there is not a lot of improvement left in Will and he is just filling in a gap until (if) Roughead/Cordy can find some aggression and ruck for us one day.

I disagree on the mixed results view. Will has generally done very well, but mostly got shunted forward to accommodate Hudson.


It's a sad story that the MC feel that Street is before you as the No. 1 ruckman.

I think you will find that for a lot of the time when Street was No 1 ruck (2006), Minson was out of the side with a broken leg. He also had some injury issues in 2007.

Minson has played as No 1 ruck intermittently with generally good results. Perhaps the 2005 game against Brisbane showed he does have plenty to offer in the role.

[soupman]

If this is your opinion this is troubling. Huddo hadn't played a game of AFL when he was drafted to the Crows from Werribee as a 25 year old. Will has played 115 games of senior AFL footballer. Will has rucked a fair few times for us without Hudson with questionable results.

My thought is that there is not a lot of improvement left in Will and he is just filling in a gap until (if) Roughead/Cordy can find some aggression and ruck for us one day.


It's a sad story that the MC feel that Street is before you as the No. 1 ruckman.

The year Street was our number 1 ruck was the year Minson had his chance at establishing himself in the position. It was 2007 IIRC. I remeber being excited because prior to that Minson had shown he was more than capable in the ruck, and has had periods of matches where he combined really well with our mid's at centre bounces (the Brisbane game in 2005 with Cooney is the best example of this).

In 2007 we played Adelaide and Richmond at the MCG early with Minson as our number 1 ruck, and he was atrocious. But it was for stupid reasons. Instead of focusing on using his body and good tapwork in those games, Minson pretty much just ran into the other ruck, barely watched the ball and gave away a lot of free's. I remember getting frustrated because it was stupid ruckwork, and it cost him his chance at the number 1 spot that year. I'm curious as to how much of that was to coaches instructions. Maybe to wear down the opposing ruck. But it didn't work to Minsons strengths at all and they were very dissapointing performances.

Since then he's never really been afforded a regular run in the ruck, either getting to play primarily as a forward or rucking for a 1-2 game stint before getting dropped. I'm hoping ith some continuity, and the incentive that he won't be dropped for Hudson when the latter is in average form can really improve him, because he has certainly shown signs of being a good, not great, ruckman.

[1eyedog]

Fair enough, but you've both highlighted the Brisbane game so one game certainly doesn't give me a lot of confidence to believe that Will has what it takes. I am a Minson fan and I like what he brings to the contest so I will leave it up to him to prove me wrong as the No. 1 ruckman for us in 2012.