Did we cut deep enough for 2011

[bornadog]

ADDITIONS
Luke Dahlhaus - Elevated Rookie
Matthew Panos - Elevated Rookie

DELETIONS
Barry Hall - Retired
Josh Hill - Traded to West Coast
Ben Hudson - Traded to the Brisbane Lions
Sam Reid - GWS Uncontracted Player
Brennan Stack - Delisted
Callan Ward - GWS Uncontracted Player

This means only four spots available? I would like to have seen at least one more spot open, can't see the point in keeping someone like Addison (or even Mulligan and Hooper, but I guess they are contracted and have youth on their side)

[GVGjr]

This means only four spots available? I would like to have seen at least one more spot open, can't see the point in keeping someone like Addison (or even Mulligan and Hooper, but I guess they are contracted and have youth on their side)

I'm not sure if it means we will definitely only have four primary spots for the drafts ahead and like you I think we need to cut a little deeper. As I said on another thread we never seem to go hard enough at it but if any year we have a plausible excuse then this is the one.

[westdog54]

I'm not sure if it means we will definitely only have four primary spots for the drafts ahead and like you I think we need to cut a little deeper. As I said on another thread we never seem to go hard enough at it but if any year we have a plausible excuse then this is the one.

Do you think we're waiting to see if there's anyone worth taking in the PSD?

I certainly think Addison and Mulligan are both extraordinarily fortunate.

[GVGjr]

Do you think we're waiting to see if there's anyone worth taking in the PSD?

I certainly think Addison and Mulligan are both extraordinarily fortunate.

It could be a variety of reasons
- Not wanting to break contracts
- Waiting to see how some surgeries go
- Waiting to see if someone is intending to retire
- Giving the new coach more time to assess

On face value there might be one or two very lucky but then again, I've been advocating more changes than we actually get for the last few years.

[Greystache]

I think as a minimum we need to cut one more. I think 5 picks in the draft is a minimum. We'll have a large number who'll go next year as well, so staggering the intake is important.

[Ghost Dog]

I think as a minimum we need to cut one more. I think 5 picks in the draft is a minimum. We'll have a large number who'll go next year as well, so staggering the intake is important.

Who would it be if you had the choice?

[Greystache]

Who would it be if you had the choice?
Take your choice, Hooper, Muligan, Gilbee, Addison, Moles

[Prince Imperial]

The five players mentioned along with Hargrave would be hot favourites to be retired/delisted at the end of next season. Given there may be others under some pressure too (Vez, Skinner) I agree that we need to cut harder now. Mulligan is simply nowhere near up to it and Addison has has six years and could only manage 4 ordinary senior games this year.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Take your choice, Hooper, Muligan, Gilbee, Addison, Moles

Mulligan. All the others, at a stretch, may offer something. But Mulligan........I mean really.

[BulldogBelle]

Mulligan. All the others, at a stretch, may offer something. But Mulligan........I mean really.



I wonder what we see in Mulligan?

Apart from a positive attitude I'm not 100% sure what else he brings to the table - poor decision making, poor disposal, simply not a footballer...

You would think a delisted player like Tom Collier would be an immediate replacement and a far better prospect than Mulligan - and hey he might already be mates with Sherman being a Tasmanian playing for the Lions

[LostDoggy]

The five players mentioned along with Hargrave would be hot favourites to be retired/delisted at the end of next season. Given there may be others under some pressure too (Vez, Skinner) I agree that we need to cut harder now. Mulligan is simply nowhere near up to it and Addison has has six years and could only manage 4 ordinary senior games this year.

Why Vez? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he have some injuries this year that kept him off the park for quite some time? He played some good footy when he got a chance.

[Prince Imperial]

Why Vez? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't he have some injuries this year that kept him off the park for quite some time? He played some good footy when he got a chance.

I quite like him and think he's a fair chance to make it but he was only given an opportunity when our season was completely done and dusted. He hurt his hand early in the season but then spent a long time in the VFL. I'm just a raising a question mark about him not saying he's definitely in the firing line. With a new coach I think he will be given every opportunity but he will have to produce next year (his 5th at AFL level) to stay on the list.

[bulldogsman]

I think as a minimum we need to cut one more. I think 5 picks in the draft is a minimum. We'll have a large number who'll go next year as well, so staggering the intake is important.

Agree with this, minimum of 5.

I can't understand why Mulligan would be kept on.

[Mantis]

I wonder what we see in Mulligan?


I wonder who see's it.

Someone must see something.... I don't know what it is.

[LostDoggy]

I wonder what we see in Mulligan?

Apart from a positive attitude I'm not 100% sure what else he brings to the table - poor decision making, poor disposal, simply not a footballer...

You would think a delisted player like Tom Collier would be an immediate replacement and a far better prospect than Mulligan - and hey he might already be mates with Sherman being a Tasmanian playing for the Lions

My thinking exactly in the delistings from other clubs thread.

[Sedat]

Agree with this, minimum of 5.

I can't understand why Mulligan would be kept on.
Irrespective of his contract status, he should not be on our list in 2012 full stop. Dead wood. Any suggestion that he remains on the list as key defensive cover can be taken with a grain of salt because he cannot defend.

[Desipura]

Irrespective of his contract status, he should not be on our list in 2012 full stop. Dead wood. Any suggestion that he remains on the list as key defensive cover can be taken with a grain of salt because he cannot defend.
Apparently he has a much older and some say extremely attractive girlfriend. I wonder whether this is the reason he is still on the list?
I cannot think of any other reason.

[The Cowshed]

It is beyond my comprehension why some players still remain on the list but all of the following should be gone by the end of next season and we are positioning ourselves to pillage the 2012 draft...

Retirees...

Gilbee
Hargrave
Giansiracusa

Simply not up to it...

Addison
Barlow
Djerrkura
Hooper
Moles
Mulligan
Schofield
Skinner
Vespremi

Therefore, maybe we could have cut 1 or 2 more this season but they need to turnover these players.

[ledge]

It is beyond my comprehension why some players still remain on the list but all of the following should be gone by the end of next season and we are positioning ourselves to pillage the 2012 draft...

Retirees...

Gilbee
Hargrave
Giansiracusa

Simply not up to it...

Addison
Barlow
Djerrkura
Hooper
Moles
Mulligan
SchofieldSkinner
Vespremi

Therefore, maybe we could have cut 1 or 2 more this season but they need to turnover these players.

How do you come to this conclusion?

[bornadog]

It is beyond my comprehension why some players still remain on the list but all of the following should be gone by the end of next season and we are positioning ourselves to pillage the 2012 draft...

Retirees...

Gilbee
Hargrave
Giansiracusa

Simply not up to it...

Addison
Barlow
Djerrkura
Hooper
Moles
Mulligan
Schofield
Skinner
Vespremi

Therefore, maybe we could have cut 1 or 2 more this season but they need to turnover these players.

Very harsh on Schofield?

The others are debatable.

[bulldogsman]

Irrespective of his contract status, he should not be on our list in 2012 full stop. Dead wood. Any suggestion that he remains on the list as key defensive cover can be taken with a grain of salt because he cannot defend.

I couldn't agree more.

He's been on our list for years and just hasn't shown much at all. The guy couldn't even get a game when 3 of our best tall defenders went down with injury, he doesn't have a hope. If we want back up, there's better options around.

[Ghost Dog]

It is beyond my comprehension why some players still remain on the list but all of the following should be gone by the end of next season and we are positioning ourselves to pillage the 2012 draft...

Retirees...

Gilbee
Hargrave
Giansiracusa

Simply not up to it...

Addison
Barlow
Djerrkura
Hooper
Moles ??
Mulligan
Schofield
Skinner
Vespremi

Therefore, maybe we could have cut 1 or 2 more this season but they need to turnover these players.

Disagree in Bold
Unproven and not enough evidence underlined

Barlow - a bit part player who showed just enough in 8 games to warrant a stay of execution. Similar to Will, he's a clumsy type who for some fans will never be a favourite. Despite this...

11th in the team for disposal average.

you would want to see what a new coach can do with him before writing him off?

Moles has injuries and not sure of the extent of them. Question mark there.

Djerrkura I was away for most of the games he played in. No idea about this guy.

Vezpremi shows slightly more promise than Everitt did. He is unproven, given lack of match time. Simply not enough evidence to write him off at senior level.

We all have our favourites, players we like for their style. But no use throwing out players who have not had the chance to show their worth one way or the other. One has to allow for improvement, change of coach, possible first year teething issues other factors.

Schofield played a total of 7 games. 7. I'm not sure what your expectations are of a 19 year old. He of all you mentioned has the youth and pep that signals he can improve and address his deficiencies.

Skinner is a wild card. Who knows really but you can't write off a player who only got one senior game unless you have some inside info? I have a few doubts he will make it, but it would be silly to cut him now as it takes some adjustment for indig players. We picked him, so no choice but to allow him to prove himself now. Otherwise, just not fair, and why pick him in the first place? have to see it through now.

[LongWait]

I'm wondering whether the strategy behind not cutting too deeply this year has something to do with not wanting to give 2 year contracts to players selected in the 5th and 6th rounds of, what is allegedly, a difficult and thin draft. That was a mouthfull.

If we draft a new youngster in the 2011 AFL Draft we are obliged to give them a 2 year contract IIRC. Why would we do this if we have little confidence in the quality at that stage of the 2011 draft, whereas we may suspect that 5th, 6th and 7th round selections next year are less of a gamble?

Additionally, the new coach may want to see who on the current list he is able to get playing his brand of contested, team-first footy.

[LostDoggy]

It is beyond my comprehension why some players still remain on the list but all of the following should be gone by the end of next season and we are positioning ourselves to pillage the 2012 draft...

Retirees...

Gilbee
Hargrave
Giansiracusa

Simply not up to it...

Addison
Barlow
Djerrkura
Hooper
Moles
Mulligan
Schofield
Skinner
Vespremi

Therefore, maybe we could have cut 1 or 2 more this season but they need to turnover these players.

Defend your decisions Cowshed, especially with Vez, Skinner, Schofield and DJ. :D

Skinner @ the club one year, showed glimpses of promise and needs a good preseason
Vez likewise on the fitness stage after battling with injury. One year at club.
Schofield. 7 games for gods sake in first year at club.
DJ and Barlow, again first years. Nobody thinks they're going to be champions but Bralow was more than useful as a rookie and DJ gained confidence towards the end of the season.

Not up to it is a very far stretch.

[stefoid]

I'm wondering whether the strategy behind not cutting too deeply this year has something to do with not wanting to give 2 year contracts to players selected in the 5th and 6th rounds of, what is allegedly, a difficult and thin draft. That was a mouthfull.

If we draft a new youngster in the 2011 AFL Draft we are obliged to give them a 2 year contract IIRC. Why would we do this if we have little confidence in the quality at that stage of the 2011 draft, whereas we may suspect that 5th, 6th and 7th round selections next year are less of a gamble?

Additionally, the new coach may want to see who on the current list he is able to get playing his brand of contested, team-first footy.

Makes sense. We armchair strategists tend to look at each year in isolation, but the recruiting department would be looking at kids as they come up the grades throughout the years and take a multi-year view.

Having said that, rookies are guarenteed only one season, so I dont see any reason not to turn over a high proprition of the rookie list each year. Rookies are basically pot luck - most wont make it no matter how long you give them, while every now and then a good one will identify himself, and usually quite quickly. How many elevated rookies on our list spent more than one year on the rookie list? Not many. Ignoring the Mulligan enimga for a moment, Panos is the only one I can think of and he spent 2 years on the rookie list.

[The Cowshed]

Defend your decisions Cowshed, especially with Vez, Skinner, Schofield and DJ. :D

Skinner @ the club one year, showed glimpses of promise and needs a good preseason
Vez likewise on the fitness stage after battling with injury. One year at club.
Schofield. 7 games for gods sake in first year at club.
DJ and Barlow, again first years. Nobody thinks they're going to be champions but Bralow was more than useful as a rookie and DJ gained confidence towards the end of the season.

Not up to it is a very far stretch.

I look for premiership players, players who carry carry you through a season, are winners and will rise to the occasion in the finals. The odd one can be carried and actually perform admirably in a final but unlikely to for 3-4 weeks of a finals series. Given I'm not part of the coaching staff and can't personally help them improve, sometimes its easier to spot their weakness' from over the fence as a supporter.

Vespremi...too slow, legs are to heavy...will never be any good (AFL wise) while he carries weight around the upper legs and bum, he's a nothing size, where do you play him, we are a slow team, he's only going to add to the likes of Cross, Boyd, Higgins, Libba, Wallis, Gia, Howard, Gilbee who give us a lack of leg speed

Skinner...no motor, doesn't get the ball enough although is smart and uses it well. He's not a key position so what is he?

Djerrkura...please, too small, not quick enough, not enough class. Can't believe some nuff nuff thought he had any value

Schofield...turns the ball over, no class, only got games because we had no one else to play and was perhaps a kneejerk selection to missing on Puopolo.

Play the above and all the others mentioned and we'll be in the doldrums for a number of years. We need to replace them by the end of next season and replenish with well chosen draft picks.

We had 15 players on our list who played in a VFL grand final and couldn't even win it, that spells trouble for us.

[bornadog]

I look for premiership players, players who carry carry you through a season, are winners and will rise to the occasion in the finals. The odd one can be carried and actually perform admirably in a final but unlikely to for 3-4 weeks of a finals series. Given I'm not part of the coaching staff and can't personally help them improve, sometimes its easier to spot their weakness' from over the fence as a supporter.

Vespremi...too slow, legs are to heavy...will never be any good (AFL wise) while he carries weight around the upper legs and bum, he's a nothing size, where do you play him, we are a slow team, he's only going to add to the likes of Cross, Boyd, Higgins, Libba, Wallis, Gia, Howard, Gilbee who give us a lack of leg speed

Skinner...no motor, doesn't get the ball enough although is smart and uses it well. He's not a key position so what is he?

Djerrkura...please, too small, not quick enough, not enough class. Can't believe some nuff nuff thought he had any value

Schofield...turns the ball over, no class, only got games because we had no one else to play and was perhaps a kneejerk selection to missing on Puopolo.

Play the above and all the others mentioned and we'll be in the doldrums for a number of years. We need to replace them by the end of next season and replenish with well chosen draft picks.

We had 15 players on our list who played in a VFL grand final and couldn't even win it, that spells trouble for us.

Agree the jury is out on some of those players, but still can't agree with your thoughts on Schofield. He is cool under pressure and has an efficiency disposal of 76%, so not sure where you got the stat for turnovers?:confused:

[The Cowshed]

I'm a hard task master!:D

[soupman]

I look for premiership players, players who carry carry you through a season, are winners and will rise to the occasion in the finals. The odd one can be carried and actually perform admirably in a final but unlikely to for 3-4 weeks of a finals series. Given I'm not part of the coaching staff and can't personally help them improve, sometimes its easier to spot their weakness' from over the fence as a supporter.


Zac Dawson, Farren Ray and Robert Eddy were a point off being premiership players. Mark Blake is one. So is Ashley Hansen. They don't need to all be stars.



Vespremi...too slow, legs are to heavy...will never be any good (AFL wise) while he carries weight around the upper legs and bum, he's a nothing size, where do you play him, we are a slow team, he's only going to add to the likes of Cross, Boyd, Higgins, Libba, Wallis, Gia, Howard, Gilbee who give us a lack of leg speed


Veszpremi has pace and acceleration, is a good finisher and has at least a bit of X factor about him. His problem has been fitness and attitude. He is easily quicker than all the blokes you mention there, and plays as a half forward.



Skinner...no motor, doesn't get the ball enough although is smart and uses it well. He's not a key position so what is he?

Djerrkura...please, too small, not quick enough, not enough class. Can't believe some nuff nuff thought he had any value


I'll pay both of these, but there's nothing to say Djerrkura can't perform a role.


Schofield...turns the ball over, no class, only got games because we had no one else to play and was perhaps a kneejerk selection to missing on Puopolo.


Very odd comment. Has been good this year, and even if he has turned it over a bit (which stats indicate he doesn't), it's his first year at AFL level as a 19 year old.


I Play the above and all the others mentioned and we'll be in the doldrums for a number of years. We need to replace them by the end of next season and replenish with well chosen draft picks.

So we'll get pick 74 for one of them, which last year got us Schofield. I'd say the chances of finding someone as good as Schofield with pick 74 again are less than even.


We had 15 players on our list who played in a VFL grand final and couldn't even win it, that spells trouble for us.

How many other sides had more players than that turn out for their VFL side and not even make finals. I'd rather make the granny and lose it than have 15 players in an average VFL side.

[Mitcha]

I look for premiership players, players who carry carry you through a season, are winners and will rise to the occasion in the finals. The odd one can be carried and actually perform admirably in a final but unlikely to for 3-4 weeks of a finals series. Given I'm not part of the coaching staff and can't personally help them improve, sometimes its easier to spot their weakness' from over the fence as a supporter.
Hard to find if you follow the Dogs, we have after all only won one of them, I look for players that can play a role within the structure of our side.
Vespremi...too slow, legs are to heavy...will never be any good (AFL wise) while he carries weight around the upper legs and bum, he's a nothing size, where do you play him, we are a slow team, he's only going to add to the likes of Cross, Boyd, Higgins, Libba, Wallis, Gia, Howard, Gilbee who give us a lack of leg speed
Skinner...no motor, doesn't get the ball enough although is smart and uses it well. He's not a key position so what is he?
Same size as Hargrave who has played as our tallish 3rd defender, why couldn't Skinner play as our tallish 3rd forward?
Djerrkura...please, too small, not quick enough, not enough class. Can't believe some nuff nuff thought he had any value
Jury is out but showed a bit towards the end of the season.
Schofield...turns the ball over, no class, only got games because we had no one else to play and was perhaps a kneejerk selection to missing on Puopolo.
Terrible call, far too early to right him off, give him time, he will be ok for us.
Play the above and all the others mentioned and we'll be in the doldrums for a number of years. We need to replace them by the end of next season and replenish with well chosen draft picks.
We had 15 players on our list who played in a VFL grand final and couldn't even win it, that spells trouble for us.
You are forgetting that Port Melbourne had a similar number playing who had been on AFL lists and everyone of them were bigger and stronger than our listed players who were mainly kids in their first or second year.

[The Cowshed]

Sorry Soupaman, not sure how to multiquote, so I'll do it the old fashioned way...

I did say we could carry the odd 'lesser light' but our team is a shell of a premiership team. these guys won't be around by the next time we challenge (please, please god). And to be honest, the players you mentioned were all important contributors in very good sides and not as poor as those I've stipulated.

Vespremi does not have pace, have you ever seen him chase or put pressure on when he doesn't have the ball? I could beat him and I'm 46. If he's got an attitude problem then that is more reason to give him his marching orders once his contract expires.

Hopefully, I'm wrong on Schofield and maybe he is worth the punt at that draft selection but I haven't liked what I've seen yet.

15 players and not one of them stood up in a grand final (o.k, Panos excluded). Bad, bad signs. That's 15 players who we hope to play seniors and beat other AFL sides...not gonna happen. Wallis worried me, was totally lost but when they work out his role, he should develop as I hear he is committed, just needs to realise where he fits.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I'm a hard task master!:D

Hey there Mr Cow shed sir.
I can't completely agree with your assessment of the list but I like the cut of your Jib.

[Sedat]

Additionally, the new coach may want to see who on the current list he is able to get playing his brand of contested, team-first footy.
I saw what you did there. I guess the problem all along has been the coach, that's why we haven't been able to beat those pesky Cats, Hawks, Saints and Pies in recent seasons, nothing at all to do with their top-end talent being far superior to ours. So it's all looking rosey in 2012 with the problem gone. Awesome!

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I saw what you did there. I guess the problem all along has been the coach, so it's all looking roses in 2012 with the problem gone. Cool!

Rocket never came up with a second gameplan, and this is ultimately what cost him the job IMO. Our 'plan' was the same in 2011 as it was in 2005, but with completely different playing lists.

The problem didn't/doesn't rest solely on the coach, but Eade most certainly contributed to his demise. I think it could be also why opposition clubs stayed away from him. Hell - Melbourne said as much. He has a stigma for not adjusting the gameplan.

[Sedat]

Rocket never came up with a second gameplan, and this is ultimately what cost him the job IMO. Our 'plan' was the same in 2011 as it was in 2005, but with completely different playing lists.

The problem didn't/doesn't rest solely on the coach, but Eade most certainly contributed to his demise. I think it could be also why opposition clubs stayed away from him. Hell - Melbourne said as much. He has a stigma for not adjusting the gameplan.
I subscribe to the talent > gameplan camp. Geelong could implement any game style they like and their sheer talent (injuries permitting) would come up trumps 9 times out of 10. IMO our top end talent paled in comparison to our fellow top 4 teams from 2008-2010, and certainly our injury depleted 2011 squad was nowhere near it. Talent ultimately dictates the effectiveness of the gameplan.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I subscribe to the talent > gameplan camp. Geelong could implement any game style they like and their sheer talent (injuries permitting) would come up trumps 9 times out of 10. IMO our top end talent paled in comparison to our fellow top 4 teams from 2008-2010, and certainly our injury depleted 2011 squad was nowhere near it. Talent ultimately dictates the effectiveness of the gameplan.

Geelong are a rare breed though. I'd be using them as the exception rather than the precedent.

Hawthorn tatically are a very good football side, despite not having the most talented list. They stole a flag in 08 and despite dreadful injuries, came close this year. Arguably if it was a talent based competition alone, Collingwood would have gone back to back. They were incredibly lucky to make the GF.

Melbourne are the other way around. Great talent, no gameplan.

St. Kilda's top 5 or 6 were very good, but the rest of their side was really ordinary. Their gameplan allowed them to compete (and beat) the best sides in the comp consistently. You didn't see St. Kilda playing to a style that didn't suit their list for basically 7 years. (Eg. Ray/Dawson had specific roles that they didn't stray away from).

Talent plays a big part, but if that's all you've got - you won't win anything.

[Remi Moses]

Addison and Mulligan are lucky .
I agree with Cowsheds list bar Schofield, possibly Skinner and Vez.

[LongWait]

I saw what you did there. I guess the problem all along has been the coach, that's why we haven't been able to beat those pesky Cats, Hawks, Saints and Pies in recent seasons, nothing at all to do with their top-end talent being far superior to ours. So it's all looking rosey in 2012 with the problem gone. Awesome!

If you say so.

[Maddog37]

I reckon theses sweeping, not good enough, type of statements could have been said about many players in their early games. Hawkins, Lonergan, Varcoe, Toovey, Ben Reid, Dawes and even Ottens.

If you get a couple right you can say, "I told you so" and feel like a big man. Good to have opinions but at least give people time to improve before writing them off.

[Desipura]

I reckon theses sweeping, not good enough, type of statements could have been said about many players in their early games. Hawkins, Lonergan, Varcoe, Toovey, Ben Reid, Dawes and even Ottens.

If you get a couple right you can say, "I told you so" and feel like a big man. Good to have opinions but at least give people time to improve before writing them off.

I agree with you in part however it is obvious to some when are player is not good enough pretty early on ie Hooper, Mulligan, Addison and Stack to name just a few.
Some do not have much improvement in them and even if they do show some improvement, it is not enough to be a long time AFL player.

[soupman]

I did say we could carry the odd 'lesser light' but our team is a shell of a premiership team. these guys won't be around by the next time we challenge (please, please god).


Thats very pessimistic. Veszpremi is 22, Schofield 19, Skinner about 22, Djerrkura 23 (all estimates but about right). So should they make it as AFL players and play until about 30 then that means you don't see us challenging for at least 8 years? I guess I can save myself some social membership fee's then.


the players you mentioned were all important contributors in very good sides and not as poor as those I've stipulated.


And what's to stop our guys being able to perform roles or be big contributors. Schofield has just as many AFL attributes as Farren Ray.


Vespremi does not have pace, have you ever seen him chase or put pressure on when he doesn't have the ball? I could beat him and I'm 46. If he's got an attitude problem then that is more reason to give him his marching orders once his contract expires.

Veszpremi has pace. He isn't Cyril Rioli quick but he would be one of the more powerful players at our club with that burst speed. He may not be able to sustain it for a long time but he certainly has that attribute. His issues this year were poor fitness, injuries at the wrong time and a perception that since he was too unfit to rotate through the midfield for an extended period then he was competing with Jones, Giansiracusa and Hall for the permanent forward spots.

If he can get his fitness up all those issues should dissipate. He has shown he can get the footy, he is a good finisher, he has good skills, he is attacking minded and he is big enough. I believe that his deficiencies are fixable. On his attributes alone he has the potential to make it, it's just whether he can work hard enough to be able to make the most of his talent.



Hopefully, I'm wrong on Schofield and maybe he is worth the punt at that draft selection but I haven't liked what I've seen yet.


Interesting because you are clearly the only one. What are the deficiencies that are holding him back from being an AFL player in your eyes?



15 players and not one of them stood up in a grand final (o.k, Panos excluded). Bad, bad signs. That's 15 players who we hope to play seniors and beat other AFL sides...not gonna happen. Wallis worried me, was totally lost but when they work out his role, he should develop as I hear he is committed, just needs to realise where he fits.

Wallis, Hahn, Reid, Stack, Hill, Addison, Roughead, Minson, Howard, Mulligan, Dj, Tutt, Hooper, Barlow, Panos.

They were our representatives. 4 won't be at the club next year, another 4 are unlikely to make it past next year. Panos played well and has since been promoted. Roughead, Tutt and Minson have all shown they can play good games at AFL level, but it remains to be seen whether they can become regular AFL players. Wallis, Howard and Dj have all looked out of their depth at times at AFL, but you'd expect them all to be given chances over the next 2 years to make it.

So of our 15 representatives there are only 7 we would see as long term players, one of whom played well. I'm dissapointed they didn't perform, but really they are all fringe players atm anyway, and the players we will be looking to to become our better players like Liberatore, Dahlhaus and Jones were all ineligible. The only players we see playing key roles in the future that underperformed were Roughead and to a lesser extent Wallis. Hardly worth getting suicidal about just yet.

[Ghost Dog]

I agree with you in part however it is obvious to some when are player is not good enough pretty early on ie Hooper, Mulligan, Addison and Stack to name just a few.
Some do not have much improvement in them and even if they do show some improvement, it is not enough to be a long time AFL player.

Decision making and ability to contest. Give me that and you can overcome all kinds of shortcomings ( libba - no pun intended! ) Even players like Boyd or Cross who have serious deficiencies in their game overcome them by firstly, willingness to bust a gut getting the thing, secondly, smart enough to work around their shortcomings ( most of the time )

Stack running around in circles in our back line for example. May as well have worn a neon sign saying ' de-list me! '

[Sedat]

Geelong are a rare breed though. I'd be using them as the exception rather than the precedent.

Hawthorn tatically are a very good football side, despite not having the most talented list. They stole a flag in 08 and despite dreadful injuries, came close this year. Arguably if it was a talent based competition alone, Collingwood would have gone back to back. They were incredibly lucky to make the GF.

Melbourne are the other way around. Great talent, no gameplan.

St. Kilda's top 5 or 6 were very good, but the rest of their side was really ordinary. Their gameplan allowed them to compete (and beat) the best sides in the comp consistently. You didn't see St. Kilda playing to a style that didn't suit their list for basically 7 years. (Eg. Ray/Dawson had specific roles that they didn't stray away from).

Talent plays a big part, but if that's all you've got - you won't win anything.
If you lined our best 8-10 players up against a wall and did the same with Collingwood, Hawthorn, Geelong and St Kilda, ours would be the weakest of the 5 teams. We probably bat deeper than Hawthorn and St Kilda from 10-22 but the top-shelf stars are where we lack. Increasingly I feel that this has been a key impediment in preventing us from winning a final against these teams. I don't think our game plan per se had any bearing ultimately in us being unsuccessful in any of these key finals.

Game plans of course are important but the talent needs to be there in the first place to execute the game plan. Look at West Coke in 2010 - wooden spooners and completely rubbish due to wholesale injuries to their list, despite their forward press game plan. Fast forward 12 months and their game plan is the same but the personnel is far better - result top 4 finish.

Anyway Macca has control of the reigns now and I for one am looking forward to seeing what he has in store for our playing list. He has a wonderful reputation as a teacher so I hope to see incremental improvement from every player on our list.

[Mantis]

Hawthorn tatically are a very good football side, despite not having the most talented list. They stole a flag in 08 and despite dreadful injuries, came close this year. Arguably if it was a talent based competition alone, Collingwood would have gone back to back. They were incredibly lucky to make the GF.



In 2008 'Buddy' Franklin kicked over 100 goals for the season and was a dominant force all year, especially in the QF against us where his 8 goals meant the Hawks were comfortable winners.

There are other star Luke Hodge was the player of the finals series.

It's easy for the rest to follow the lead when your absolute guns are at the peak of their powers.... In 2008 our gun was hobbling around with a bung knee.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

In 2008 'Buddy' Franklin kicked over 100 goals for the season and was a dominant force all year, especially in the QF against us where his 8 goals meant the Hawks were comfortable winners.

There are other star Luke Hodge was the player of the finals series.

It's easy for the rest to follow the lead when your absolute guns are at the peak of their powers.... In 2008 our gun was hobbling around with a bung knee.

We were still constantly beaten by sides above us and often little things like positioning at stoppages cost us. We lost that terrible St. Kilda game because of this, and also a close one v Hawthorn. Little things like that don't require the talent of a Franklin, Riewoldt etc.

We failed in the same areas, but Eade never changed his philosophy. We were never going to beat Geelong/Hawthorn/Collingwood/St. Kilda with a free wheeling game style, but we continually went down this path.

IMO it's an easy cop out to say we weren't good enough. We were close enough in several games and were often our own enemy.

Moot point anyway, as it's all advanced to the position we're in now. Hopefully the new coaching staff can implement their plans, and hopefully we draft well. We're going to need to.

[Mantis]

We were still constantly beaten by sides above us and often little things like positioning at stoppages cost us. We lost that terrible St. Kilda game because of this, and also a close one v Hawthorn. Little things like that don't require the talent of a Franklin, Riewoldt etc.

We failed in the same areas, but Eade never changed his philosophy. We were never going to beat Geelong/Hawthorn/Collingwood/St. Kilda with a free wheeling game style, but we continually went down this path.

IMO it's an easy cop out to say we weren't good enough. We were close enough in several games and were often our own enemy.

Moot point anyway, as it's all advanced to the position we're in now. Hopefully the new coaching staff can implement their plans, and hopefully we draft well. We're going to need to.

What was Eade's philosphy?

[Maddog37]

It seemed to me to be constant running and fast ball movement.

[mjp]

Please, please...enough of the Eade game-plan/no game-plan/no second game-plan debate...

Did we cut deep enough? Well, we didn't cut ANYONE did we?

The only delisting I am aware of is Stack - who supposedly was offered a contract but respectfully declined. Given that, and our 2011 win-loss ratio, the answer to the opening question is clearly NO. I completely disagree with the idea of delisting Schofield and Veszpremi at this point. I can see why people stand behind Skinner (though I disagree) and beyond that would happily see the end of Addison, Moles, Barlow, Mulligan and Hooper. Barlow is a rookie I guess, so no harm, no foul there...The others? Very lucky indeed.

On a positive note, I don't have to cheer for Josh Hill and Brennan Stack anymore.

[stefoid]

Decision making and ability to contest. Give me that and you can overcome all kinds of shortcomings ( libba - no pun intended! ) Even players like Boyd or Cross who have serious deficiencies in their game overcome them by firstly, willingness to bust a gut getting the thing, secondly, smart enough to work around their shortcomings ( most of the time )

Stack running around in circles in our back line for example. May as well have worn a neon sign saying ' de-list me! '

I agree - Geelong are the yardstick, and they have relatively few players with genuine pace - you could say their midfield was mostly 'one paced'. They have relatively few players with 'x-factor'.

What they do have is a lot of players who are good at contesting the ball and using it well under pressure when they get it. Tons of those guys.

Thats why I particularly like Libba and Dalhaus, and I hope that Adams falls to our pick in the draft. Thats why Ward's defection hurts a lot.

I really hope Wallis has these attributes, can anyone tell me?