Our Shocking Lack of Depth

[F'scary]

Following the excellent WOOF threads on forwards, mids & backs, I had a little play around with possible selections for a full team. The surprise outcome for me in this exercise was the revelation of the complete lack of depth at our club. So grave is the situation, as I see it, that the wisdom of some of our new coaching team’s draft selections is called into question. It looks blatantly obvious to me that they went for too many ‘ready in 2 to 4 years’ and project players. In particular the selections of Dickson, Pearce and Fletcher look very questionable. In addition, the promotion of Panos from the rookie list and the delisting of Barlow (34 senior games) are questionable. The passing over of experienced delisted players like Setanta O’hAilpin, Mc Qualter, John McCarthy (Coll), Ed Lower, Ric Ladson, etc, etc (there was a lot of them, all shapes and sizes, available) for those 3 picks was a mistake given this appalling lack of depth.
Disagree with me as strongly as you like (after all it is the internet), but I have never been impressed with the “we’re planning for success in 5 years time” school of coaching a la Melbourne & Richmond. That's a con job. I think we should have gone for 3 ready-mades instead of Dickson, Pearce & Fletcher – to be precise, we should have gone for O’hAilpin, Lower and McCarthy. Before you bawl me out, take a look at the following. It may change your mind.

FB: Morris Markovic Addison
HB: Murphy Williams Hargrave
C: Picken Wood Higgins
HF: Dalhaus Jones Grant
FF: Giansiracusa Cooney Lake
R: Minson Griffen Boyd
Bench: Cross, Liberatore , Wallis, Sherman (sub)
Emerg: Roughead, Tutt, Djerrkura
Depth: Gilbee (202 games), Cordy (2), Moles (17), Howard (6), Hooper (6), Mulligan (3), Veszpremi (14).

Notes:
1. Against teams with strong ruck divisions & good midfields, include Roughead (forward pocket) for either Markovic or Addison with Lake switching to the full back line.
2. Wood has been promoted to centre based on excellent form in 2011, allowing Cooney to play full forward if knee conservation is required. If not, Wood to back pocket for Addison, Cooney to centre, Lake to full forward, Addison to bench for Wallis.
3. Lack of depth, this really shows up the impact of the poaching of Ward and Harbrow and the unanticipated decline of Josh Hill. With the exception of Gilbee, the listed players have each only played a handful of games. Others not listed have not played a senior game yet or were recruited in the latest drafts.

As, you can see, our first 25 look reasonable-to-damn good-in-fact excellent to me but there's not much beyond that (Moles impresses me). A few injuries and we're cactus for the season. As I understand it AFL clubs are using on average around 33 players a season (but can't find a source for this). We used 36 last year.

[bornadog]

FB: Morris Markovic Addison
HB: Murphy Williams Hargrave
C: Picken Wood Higgins
HF: Dalhaus Jones Grant
FF: Giansiracusa Cooney Lake
R: Minson Griffen Boyd
Bench: Cross, Liberatore , Wallis, Sherman (sub)
Emerg: Roughead, Tutt, Djerrkura
Depth: Gilbee (202 games), Cordy (2), Moles (17), Howard (6), Hooper (6), Mulligan (3), Veszpremi (14)..

Not sure why you don't have Lake in the starting line up in the FB position, and if I read one more post about Lake to Full forward I will spew up.

In my opinion Addison is not in our best 25 and I cannot see why Wood is in the centre as he in unproven in such a vital position.

I do agree we don't have depth.

[Cyberdoggie]

I think the coaching panel have made all the right picks so far.

All those recycled suggestions you have made are players i wouldn't want in the side as they aren't good enough to begin with (they have had their shot and have proven to be not good enough or merely bit players like Barlow). Dickson and Redpath are inexperienced but are ready to play build wise if they are good enough. It wouldn't surprise me to see Vezpremi and Dickson both play round 1 even though they are very similar players. Roughead and Minson will both play as will Gilbee, and Panos (perhaps maybe not round 1 for Panos).

Addison would surprise me if he gets a game and is basically only there for insurance matters.

Yes we are young and inexperienced but it's a young man's game and you pick the players you want to forge your team around, not fill it up with average recycled players who aren't going to improve because you don't have faith in the kids.

We need to get games into Libba, Wallis, Smith, Talia regularly this year. All of them are big enough and should be good enough to contribute (although Wallis hasn't shown much to date). Smith is big enough and if he adapts to the speed of the game will fit in easily. Talia is also a decent size and might get a couple of games if Hargrave and Williams struggle with injuries (quite likely).

Lake won't play forward, he's a defender is not going to be a better FF than he is a FB. We have more options to play up forward than we do at FB and his role is far more crucial.

The only depth issues i see is if we lose a ruckman or we struggle with outside running ability. Gilbee isn't much of an option anymore, which leaves Tutt, DJ, Cooney, Griffen, Wood, Murphy and Moles, and i'd really only say the first two are the more traditional 'wingman' type players.

[Greystache]

Brisbane loaded up on average depth players in "the right age bracket" back in 2009, look where that got them. Nuff said.

[LostDoggy]

It's true but it's hardily a surprise.

[always right]

Not denying we have depth issues but you have left out two players who will help. McCartney has declared that Dickson is a likely starter early in the season and has a strong body. Smith is impressing in the pre season and looks a likely replacement for Ward.

[F'scary]

Not sure why you don't have Lake in the starting line up in the FB position, and if I read one more post about Lake to Full forward I will spew up.

In my opinion Addison is not in our best 25 and I cannot see why Wood is in the centre as he in unproven in such a vital position.

I do agree we don't have depth.

Fair enough Bornadog, I was just playing around with the line up but wanted to communicate my shock at realising how little depth we have going in to 2012. cheers

[F'scary]

I think the coaching panel have made all the right picks so far.

All those recycled suggestions you have made are players i wouldn't want in the side as they aren't good enough to begin with (they have had their shot and have proven to be not good enough or merely bit players like Barlow). Dickson and Redpath are inexperienced but are ready to play build wise if they are good enough. It wouldn't surprise me to see Vezpremi and Dickson both play round 1 even though they are very similar players. Roughead and Minson will both play as will Gilbee, and Panos (perhaps maybe not round 1 for Panos).

Addison would surprise me if he gets a game and is basically only there for insurance matters.

Yes we are young and inexperienced but it's a young man's game and you pick the players you want to forge your team around, not fill it up with average recycled players who aren't going to improve because you don't have faith in the kids.

We need to get games into Libba, Wallis, Smith, Talia regularly this year. All of them are big enough and should be good enough to contribute (although Wallis hasn't shown much to date). Smith is big enough and if he adapts to the speed of the game will fit in easily. Talia is also a decent size and might get a couple of games if Hargrave and Williams struggle with injuries (quite likely).

Lake won't play forward, he's a defender is not going to be a better FF than he is a FB. We have more options to play up forward than we do at FB and his role is far more crucial.

The only depth issues i see is if we lose a ruckman or we struggle with outside running ability. Gilbee isn't much of an option anymore, which leaves Tutt, DJ, Cooney, Griffen, Wood, Murphy and Moles, and i'd really only say the first two are the more traditional 'wingman' type players.

fair enough, maybe I should get into the idea that we are substantially rebuilding. But I'm worried about a low finish now (10-14 at worst) for 2012, a few days ago I was more optimistic until my realisation that forms this thread. Maybe its got to be but the idea really irks me. I don't want our club to start doing what Richmond and Melbourne have been doing for at least a decade (the bs 5 year plan).

[F'scary]

It's true but it's hardily a surprise.

fair enough, I hadn't thought about the losses of Ward & Harbrow enough until now. A-graders, spotted and developed by us and now GONE. Thank you Dear Leader Demetriou for setting up a pillaging of our club for your new love children.

[F'scary]

Not denying we have depth issues but you have left out two players who will help. McCartney has declared that Dickson is a likely starter early in the season and has a strong body. Smith is impressing in the pre season and looks a likely replacement for Ward.

And Talia too, perhaps. Hope your right. cheers

[always right]

And Talia too, perhaps. Hope your right. cheers

It is what it is. Frankly I'm looking forward to the season. New game plan, new batch of young players, exciting talent in their second or third year. Not expecting a heap of wins but excited to see how the team develops.

[Remi Moses]

It is what it is. Frankly I'm looking forward to the season. New game plan, new batch of young players, exciting talent in their second or third year. Not expecting a heap of wins but excited to see how the team develops.

Agree ^^ Don't reckon we will set the world on fire .
Just wanna see a plan, hardness at the player and the ball.
Like to become hard to beat, a point Macca has continually pressed.

[kruder]

We lack class more than depth. Dickson I think we be a really good find and will add to the depth your looking for.

It it looks like the majority on here are really realistic with their assessments on 2012 which is refreshing.

[mjp]

I don't really think we are that much worse off than we were last year. It is up forward where the 'depth' issues are so marked - and those issues aren't even really about 'depth' - they are more related to exactly who we are going to play in the first place...though you could say the same thing about the ruck I suppose.

Our first choice midfield is still going to have Cooney, Griffen and Boyd running about - they are 'A'-grade players. Murphy will float around across half-back - and together with Williams, Morris and Wood (I will leave Lake out of the discussion for the moment) we will be OK down back. Gia is a known element up forward.

There are some question marks about our squad but only 12-months ago many posters were citing our 'impressive' depth and including guys such as Addison in the list of players who gave us evidence of that.

As always, things are never as good as you think or as bad as you fear...the truth for us at the moment is somewhere in the middle of those two points and I still believe our fate rests with the fragile bodies of Lake and Cooney.

[Before I Die]

We could have kept Stack, Hill and Barlow and then picked au Setanta and his reject buddies. Would that have then given us a "Shockingly Deep List" ? One year ago ago everyone was applauding Malthouse for sacking Fraser, Medhurst etc and placing faith in the kids. If we are going to win a premiership we need to develop champions, not clog up our list with journeymen. Jones, Grant, Roughead and Cordy may never be great players, but they have also shown enough to indicate that it is possible that they may, and I have never been able to say that about a group of four young talls before in more than 40 years as a supporter.

When Richo retired at Richmond it was all doom and gloom up forward, then Reiwoldt stood up. Not saying our boys will do the same, but they must be given the chance. The same goes for our young midfielders. Our depth is fine unless the A Graders go down, then, like all clubs, we would struggle.

[AndrewP6]

We could have kept Stack, Hill and Barlow and then picked au Setanta and his reject buddies. Would that have then given us a "Shockingly Deep List" ? One year ago ago everyone was applauding Malthouse for sacking Fraser, Medhurst etc and placing faith in the kids. If we are going to win a premiership we need to develop champions, not clog up our list with journeymen. Jones, Grant, Roughead and Cordy may never be great players, but they have also shown enough to indicate that it is possible that they may, and I have never been able to say that about a group of four young talls before in more than 40 years as a supporter.

When Richo retired at Richmond it was all doom and gloom up forward, then Reiwoldt stood up. Not saying our boys will do the same, but they must be given the chance. The same goes for our young midfielders. Our depth is fine unless the A Graders go down, then, like all clubs, we would struggle.

Coons is a week by week proposition who may never recapture his best, Lake is an uncertainty at this stage, Murph's body is not something I'd want to rest our fortunes on.

Our depth is ordinary, IMO.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Our lack of depth has been obvious for a long time. The inability to attract quality big players has been a constant thorn in being unable to bridge the gap in recent years. The thought of bringing to the Club the recycled players is hardly the way forward.
Lake will start in his rightful position at FB.
Roughead is our future number one ruckman and will share the duties with Minson.
Panos looks likely to start at FF. Addison a great trier but isn't up to the required standard.
Both Higgins and Grant would need to improve their attitude to become regulars.

[Before I Die]

Coons is a week by week proposition who may never recapture his best, Lake is an uncertainty at this stage, Murph's body is not something I'd want to rest our fortunes on.

Our depth is ordinary, IMO.

Is discussion about depth a discussion about our 23 to 30th ranked players or about the fitness of our A graders? Yes we have injury clouds hanging over key players, and yes if they don't stand up our depth will be tested. As was clearly demonstrated last year when we supposedly started the year with a very deep list. Are you suggesting that we would be better off if we recruited players delisted by other teams instead of going with youth, which seems to be the general thrust of the opening thread?

[AndrewP6]

Is discussion about depth a discussion about our 23 to 30th ranked players or about the fitness of our A graders? Yes we have injury clouds hanging over key players, and yes if they don't stand up our depth will be tested. As was clearly demonstrated last year when we supposedly started the year with a very deep list. Are you suggesting that we would be better off if we recruited players delisted by other teams instead of going with youth, which seems to be the general thrust of the opening thread?

All I'm saying is that the players I listed are somewhat dubious in terms of output/availability/health, therefore leaving it to the lesser lights... who I don't think are up to it. Or to put it another way, our depth is ordinary.

[KT31]

I am still a bit confused as to why this title has a smilie icon.:confused:

[Hotdog60]

It's all a bit speculative at the moment because we have a few variables this year to consider.
Will our wounded heroes be able to stay on the park and be productive if they can our depth suddenly gets a little deeper.
Will our young kids take another step forward and improve on their debuts from last year.
Can the new recruits make an immediate impact and hold a spot on the list.
The new coaching staff may invigorate the players that were looking as their time was near up.
And will the new game plan gel the team into playing to a consistent level.

Macca may take someone like Adison and give him a role that may cement him in our 22, Gilbee who many have said is cooked may not play the usual half back role and may thrive elsewhere on the field.

Do we have depth at the club? Six rounds in may give us that answer.

[Mantis]

Macca may take someone like Adison and give him a role that may cement him in our 22, Gilbee who many have said is cooked may not play the usual half back role and may thrive elsewhere on the field.

Do we have depth at the club? Six rounds in may give us that answer.

Where do you think Addison could play?

Same too with Gilbee who was tried as a forward last yera for mixed results?

[Hotdog60]

Where do you think Addison could play?

Same too with Gilbee who was tried as a forward last yera for mixed results?

I was just using these players as an example of one end of the scale, I have no idea of what they could play, it's more of let's wait and see if the new coaching panel can revive some careers hence we'll get a better idea a few games into the season.

I suppose a bit like Libba change of role under Wallace, Libba look gone but managed to hang around for a bit longer. I know footy has changed and I'd like to see how things progress this year.

It will be interesting come the end of the season to see who stay and who goes.

[w3design]

Because a smile don't cost a thing.

[always right]

All I'm saying is that the players I listed are somewhat dubious in terms of output/availability/health, therefore leaving it to the lesser lights... who I don't think are up to it. Or to put it another way, our depth is ordinary.

Almost no club has depth to replace their best players. At best they can help mitigate the loss of those players. Are we really any worse off than most other clubs? Until we see how quickly the new/young blokes develop I think the whole depth discussion is a little silly.

The big unknown is how the players adapt to the new gameplan. Many are writing off Addison which is understandable based on his career so far....but who's to say he isn't going to be a major beneficiary of the way McCartney wants to approach matches?

[F'scary]

We could have kept Stack, Hill and Barlow and then picked au Setanta and his reject buddies. Would that have then given us a "Shockingly Deep List" ? One year ago ago everyone was applauding Malthouse for sacking Fraser, Medhurst etc and placing faith in the kids. If we are going to win a premiership we need to develop champions, not clog up our list with journeymen. Jones, Grant, Roughead and Cordy may never be great players, but they have also shown enough to indicate that it is possible that they may, and I have never been able to say that about a group of four young talls before in more than 40 years as a supporter.

When Richo retired at Richmond it was all doom and gloom up forward, then Reiwoldt stood up. Not saying our boys will do the same, but they must be given the chance. The same goes for our young midfielders. Our depth is fine unless the A Graders go down, then, like all clubs, we would struggle.

Ok, maybe I panicked. And it looks like J Grant is the preferred full forward option with the majority of posters.

[F'scary]

I am still a bit confused as to why this title has a smilie icon.:confused:

maybe I clicked the wrong button.:o

[Remi Moses]

I am still a bit confused as to why this title has a smilie icon.:confused:

Didn't get that either.
It's pretty obvious losing so many players from the 08-11 period, that our depth has weakened.

[stefoid]

I agree with the lack of class. We have good depth in foot soldiers and a lot of those foot soldiers are on the young side.

I think we are more even that we used to be. Our top 6 are worse than they used to be but our bottom 6 are better.

Mcartneys job is to take an even team of foot soldiers and turn the whole into something greater than its parts. It has been done before.

The recruiters have to nail two A grade midfielders first up next year.

[Dazza]

Not fussed about a lack of depth. When you are rebuilding depth players become list cloggers.

[Maddog37]

Aussie cricket team lacked depth in pace bowlers three months ago. Things change quickly when you give youth a go.

[ledge]

How can anyone know we have a lack of depth at this time of year?
Someone has a crystal ball and no confidence in the players coming through.
Pre season training, new players, new positions, new coach, new game plan, no idea how this conclusion has come 1 month before a season starts.

[Sedat]

Where do you think Addison could play?

Same too with Gilbee who was tried as a forward last yera for mixed results?
Addison could play a poor man's inside midfield role in the event of a Boyd or Cross going down with a LTI. Otherwise he will see a lot of the Pt Gellibrand Oval in 2012.

Gilbee is still an elite kick which will always give him an advantage over his competitors for a spot in the best 22. Realistically he will be competing with Howard for a spot in the team, and whilst Howard has shown some promise, I'm still far from sold on him as a long term proposition.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Addison could play a poor man's inside midfield role in the event of a Boyd or Cross going down with a LTI. Otherwise he will see a lot of the Pt Gellibrand Oval in 2012.

Gilbee is still an elite kick which will always give him an advantage over his competitors for a spot in the best 22. Realistically he will be competing with Howard for a spot in the team, and whilst Howard has shown some promise, I'm still far from sold on him as a long term proposition.

The big test for players like Gilbee, Howard and add the likes of Higgins, Grant,Gia, Sherman and Moles is whether they have the mental fibre that the new coach will demand. A disappointing feature of too many of our players that BMcC identified in our team during his time at Geelong.

[Guido]

The passing over of experienced delisted players like Setanta O’hAilpin, Mc Qualter, John McCarthy (Coll), Ed Lower, Ric Ladson, etc, etc (there was a lot of them, all shapes and sizes, available) for those 3 picks was a mistake given this appalling lack of depth..
We've recuited about 30 recycled players over the past 16/17 years. I can count the ones that went on to play more than 50 quality games on one hand.

Assuming a conservative 30% strike rate at the draft table had we kept the majority of the selections pissed away on these recycled players, then this strategy has clearly cost the club some A grade talent over the years and most likely a premiership.

In particular the selections of Dickson, Pearce and Fletcher look very questionable.
On the other hand, if I was to do an analysis of mature aged second tier comp recruits across the league, I reckon I could almost muster up a premiership team.

Boyd, Morris, Harry Taylor, Sam Mitchell.. there's probably another half dozen who either have AA, B&F or permiership medallions around their necks, and there's probably at least another dozen solid 150+ AFL gamers picked up from the WAFL/SANFL/VFL over the past 7-8 years.

We've played the percentages. No guarantee of it succeeding, but IMO history suggests the path the club has chosen has more chance of delivering players that can consistently contribute to a top 4 side than O'Hailpin, McQualter, McCarthy, Stack and Barlow would have.

[Cyberdoggie]

Coons is a week by week proposition who may never recapture his best, Lake is an uncertainty at this stage, Murph's body is not something I'd want to rest our fortunes on.

Our depth is ordinary, IMO.

Perhaps you could rephrase that by saying we have a possible depth issue with our A graders, which is true. If Cooney and Lake don't play good regular football then we don't have too many A grade game winning footballers that we can see.

However we have a pretty good list and it's fairly balanced other than the injuries to the stars. Our kids have potential and although we are inexperienced up forward there are some positives with the young talls. There are several possible tall options up forward that look promising, i doubt you could say that about bulldog sides in years gone by.

Maybe i'm just a glass half full kind of guy but i expect to see a dramatic improvement in our players this year.

[AndrewP6]

Perhaps you could rephrase that by saying we have a possible depth issue with our A graders, which is true. If Cooney and Lake don't play good regular football then we don't have too many A grade game winning footballers that we can see.

However we have a pretty good list and it's fairly balanced other than the injuries to the stars. Our kids have potential and although we are inexperienced up forward there are some positives with the young talls. There are several possible tall options up forward that look promising, i doubt you could say that about bulldog sides in years gone by.

Maybe i'm just a glass half full kind of guy but i expect to see a dramatic improvement in our players this year.

Having depth refers to having players that you can call on if your top liners are unavailable. If Cooney/Lake/Murphy go down, I'm not sold on their replacements (Markovic for Lake OK). The inexperience up forward will be very tough for us IMO, I can't see us kicking a winning score enough. And potential is, as the young kids say "Meh". Shaun Higgins had (has?) potential.

Maybe I'm a glass half empty kind of guy. ;)

[Mantis]

However we have a pretty good list and it's fairly balanced other than the injuries to the stars. Our kids have potential and although we are inexperienced up forward there are some positives with the young talls. There are several possible tall options up forward that look promising, i doubt you could say that about bulldog sides in years gone by.

Maybe i'm just a glass half full kind of guy but i expect to see a dramatic improvement in our players this year.

Really?

How many players do we have in the 21 to 28 yo age bracket who play regular senior footy? How does this compare to other teams?

Without knowing I would say we wouldn't stack up all that well as we have a lot of older guys, a lot of young guys, but not much in the middle.

[Cyberdoggie]

Really?

How many players do we have in the 21 to 28 yo age bracket who play regular senior footy? How does this compare to other teams?

Without knowing I would say we wouldn't stack up all that well as we have a lot of older guys, a lot of young guys, but not much in the middle.

Balanced as in talent wise we are fairly even, certainly we are missing players in the middle age group of experience.

[stefoid]

Really?

How many players do we have in the 21 to 28 yo age bracket who play regular senior footy? How does this compare to other teams?

Without knowing I would say we wouldn't stack up all that well as we have a lot of older guys, a lot of young guys, but not much in the middle.

Well... true. But we have a lot of tall timber of all kinds on the list these days, which is a refreshing change. Surely some of them will make it. We will know more in 6 months time, but Im pretty confident our ruck and keypo situation is in hand. And we know we have more than enough big bodied inside mids now.

Add a few silky mids to the mix and we will be doing allright.

rucks: minson, roughy, cordy, cambell, (hill?)
key backs: marco, williams, talia, roberts ( I expect him to play defence), austin
key forwards: jones, panos (ff), hill, redpath

With the exception of fletcher, these guys are all physically ready to play seniors as soon as they can put the form together. (I hear cordy is big enough these days?)

[always right]

Having depth refers to having players that you can call on if your top liners are unavailable. If Cooney/Lake/Murphy go down, I'm not sold on their replacements (Markovic for Lake OK). The inexperience up forward will be very tough for us IMO, I can't see us kicking a winning score enough. And potential is, as the young kids say "Meh". Shaun Higgins had (has?) potential.

Maybe I'm a glass half empty kind of guy. ;)

Really? Seems as though we each haeve a different view as to what depth means. The vast majority of clubs can never cover their stars so rating a club's depth IMO is more about how deep you bat to cover your middle rung players if they are injured.