Defensive Forward?

[Go_Dogs]

I find the proposition of a defensive forward very interesting. There are people who believe in the role, and others who think it's a role no one should ever play at AFL level.

In the modern game, it's near impossible to have players just doing a negating job. They need to be able to win their own ball, create an option when the ball's being brought forward and use it well when they take possession.

That being said, given the number of high class players who play off half back, the amount of run and drive that every side looks to create from their backline, it's still a role that I see potential in to a certain extent.

Quick players who can shut down space and like to tackle (Dahlhaus being our best example) are crucial in the forward half, and whilst they can't just focus on the defensive stuff, those who have a defensive intent and can execute are very valuable.

I don't class Dahlhaus as a defensive forward, I guess the term 'defensively capable forward' is the way I would phrase it, but this type of player is one I think is very important in modern footy, and one we need more of.

Thoughts?

[w3design]

Clay Smith could play as a defensive forward- I think he did a bit at u18 level. Tackles hard and can kick a goal.

[stefoid]

The best way to keep defenders honest is to threaten to kick a crap load of goals, isnt it?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

The best way to keep defenders honest is to threaten to kick a crap load of goals, isnt it?

You mean like how we used to?

Very simplistic way of looking at it. Much of the game's drive comes from the half back, so restricting their influence is critical. We've been very poor in this area for a while, even when we had Johnson/Akermanis etc.

It's not all just about attack.

[Greystache]

You mean like how we used to?

Very simplistic way of looking at it. Much of the game's drive comes from the half back, so restricting their influence is critical. We've been very poor in this area for a while, even when we had Johnson/Akermanis etc.

It's not all just about attack.

Totally agree.

I'm hoping our game plan under B Mac will evolve beyond just trying to win shoot outs, especially if Brian Lake is going to be restricted in his ability to cover for the number of easy forward fifty entries we have conceded in the past.

[jeemak]

Agree with Stefoid on this, the very good sides have dangerous goal kicking smalls that can also apply defensive pressure when needed.

A pure defensive forward isn't going to satisfy this need.

I've stated in another thread that we need to work on producing a forward line that is capable of kicking a winning score over the next couple of years. While I understand that a defensive player will assist in locking the ball in our forward line and create more scoring opportunities as a result, we need to put together a structure that doesn't allow opposition defenders the opportunity to move the ball out of our forward line on the back of our poor structure.

Get the structure and forward ball movement from defense right, and opposition defenders will need to be accountable for their opponents. Moving the ball forward effectively keeps our mid and small forwards in the contest, allowing them to provide defensive pressure if they don't win it.

In 2011 I paid close attention to Carlton and their small forwards like Garlett and Betts and how they were lauded for their defensive pressure. Whilst their attitude was great, their mandate was essentially to be at the fall of the ball when it came in to their forward line. This gave them a great opportunity to kick the odd crumbing goal however, importantly it provided them with with the opportunity to create defensive pressure after the ball fell to an opposition defender.

Over the last two years we haven't had the smalls to do what Carlton's managed, every time we entered the forward line it either went to Hall or Gia as a second or third option wide, and apart from Dahl there wasn't a small player to stick at their feet. I hope that Dahl takes another step forward, and DJ steps up to provide another crumbing option.

I don't have any hopes for Clay Smith providing assistance in this area this year, he's got a lot of development irrespective of how hard and built he is becomming. I also don't think Picken has a place in the side beyond being a run with mid prospect on a week to week basis.

Let's just get the scoring and forward movement structure in place this year. Once that's done and we need more defensive cover up forward we can address it then.

[LostDoggy]

Why is this role limited to one player and why does it seem to be the only role the player should have?
This is a team/game plan issue.
Seems a strange decision to pigeon hole our no.1 recruit straight away to do a role that we give to journeyman players that might not be up to it and we can't find a position for.

[Desipura]

Why is this role limited to one player and why does it seem to be the only role the player should have?
This is a team/game plan issue.
Seems a strange decision to pigeon hole our no.1 recruit straight away to do a role that we give to journeyman players that might not be up to it and we can't find a position for.

Have to agree totally with the above. You do not pick your no. 1 recruit to play a role that has historically been used on a player with limited ability.

[stefoid]

Totally agree.

I'm hoping our game plan under B Mac will evolve beyond just trying to win shoot outs, especially if Brian Lake is going to be restricted in his ability to cover for the number of easy forward fifty entries we have conceded in the past.

Not playing a defensive forward does not mean a shoot out. It just means not playing a defensive forward. Defending is everybodies responsibilities when we dont have the ball, but hard tags, whether they be in the midfield or the forward line are self defeating IMO.

Best thing to do is isolate the defenders - you dont want guys zoning off their opponent because they know he isnt dangerous. This increases your own chance to score and makes it harder for them to clear the ball effectively at the same time.

[Sedat]

The defensive forward role is no longer a set position for any one player, but I believe in a fanatical defensive workrate and ethic in all of our forward 50 players whenever the ball is in the opposition's hands. It is one of the few areas that we have been substandard at since 2008 - I would expect every single member of our forward line to be able to instinctively switch into this fanatical defensive mode once the opposition get control of the ball. It took an 18yo rookie listed player to show the rest of our list how it's done in 2011, which really was a poor reflection on the rest of the playing group.

I never again want to see the likes of Shaw and Harry O stream out of defensive 50 against us like it is a stroll in the park.

[GVGjr]

I find the proposition of a defensive forward very interesting. There are people who believe in the role, and others who think it's a role no one should ever play at AFL level.



I believe that on occasions a forward mainly focused on shutting down or limiting an otherwise damaging defender can be a positive for a side. There are some very attacking defenders in the AFL and a forward sacrificing his natural game to keep a defender honest is what I believe a defensive forward can do.

A couple of years back when Gilbee was in full flight off the half back flank I watched a very focused and disciplined Adelaide forward line keep dragging him back into the pocket and goal square and it really took him off his game. Every time he tried to switch with a team mate the Adelaide forwards would also switch. In the end any plans that Eade had of freeing up Gilbee to get off his opponent and create some run was blown away.



Quick players who can shut down space and like to tackle (Dahlhaus being our best example) are crucial in the forward half, and whilst they can't just focus on the defensive stuff, those who have a defensive intent and can execute are very valuable.

I don't class Dahlhaus as a defensive forward, I guess the term 'defensively capable forward' is the way I would phrase it, but this type of player is one I think is very important in modern footy, and one we need more of.

Thoughts?

I don't class Dahlhaus as a defensive forward in the slightest however, he does have a great defensive ethic in an otherwise attacking style. Like Sedat has just pointed out, it was a shame that a rookie listed player had to provide that sort of spark but we now need others to follow that lead.

I think at times B-Mac might employ a forward to specifically shut down or limited an opposition defender but it's more around the whole forward line creating a level of panic amongst opposition defenders to know that if they even fumble the ball in the slightest a Bulldog forward will be collaring them.

Players like Veszpremi should be trying to highlight to the new coach that he can do a similar job to Dahlhaus while still kicking a goal or two.

[AndrewP6]

The defensive forward role is no longer a set position for any one player, but I believe in a fanatical defensive workrate and ethic in all of our forward 50 players whenever the ball is in the opposition's hands. It is one of the few areas that we have been substandard at since 2008 - I would expect every single member of our forward line to be able to instinctively switch into this fanatical defensive mode once the opposition get control of the ball. It took an 18yo rookie listed player to show the rest of our list how it's done in 2011, which really was a poor reflection on the rest of the playing
I never again want to see the likes of Shaw and Harry O stream out of defensive 50 against us like it is a stroll in the park.

Sums it up for me.

[Go_Dogs]

The defensive forward role is no longer a set position for any one player, but I believe in a fanatical defensive workrate and ethic in all of our forward 50 players whenever the ball is in the opposition's hands.

Agree with that. Having players capable of being effective doing it (perhaps a slight distinction from work rate?) is crucial though. There is no reason why players like Sherman and Grant can't be as effective as Dahlhaus given their speed/ability to shut down space.

Based on what we know about the new coach, hopefully a much more complete effort from all our forwards working the other way will become the standard.


I don't class Dahlhaus as a defensive forward in the slightest however, he does have a great defensive ethic in an otherwise attacking style. Like Sedat has just pointed out, it was a shame that a rookie listed player had to provide that sort of spark but we now need others to follow that lead.

I think at times B-Mac might employ a forward to specifically shut down or limited an opposition defender but it's more around the whole forward line creating a level of panic amongst opposition defenders to know that if they even fumble the ball in the slightest a Bulldog forward will be collaring them.

Players like Veszpremi should be trying to highlight to the new coach that he can do a similar job to Dahlhaus while still kicking a goal or two.

Agree with all this too.

Hopefully Vez can become effective with his defensive efforts. Going to be a really interesting year for him. If his fitness is right to allow him multiple repeat efforts he should be a big improver and help with our defensive efforts in the forward half.

[mjp]

I never again want to see the likes of Shaw and Harry O stream out of defensive 50 against us like it is a stroll in the park.

Well - you will. And it wont really matter what we do we aren't going to stop this. When we say 'isolate the defenders', well, that is fine - but the opposition wont allow it and will start by rolling their wingers down and then roll down the high-half forwards and then roll down the forward pocket players and then etc etc.

From a contested ball situation - the opposition will work to block and create space for their run and carry types (such as O'Brien and Shaw). And guys like O'Brien and Shaw will further exacerbate the situation by utilising their license to roll the dice and depend on a combination of the contested area AND their team-mates covering their back to get sprung into space.

The reason defensive forwards and hard-tags etc are basically obselete is that rotations have - to a large degree - done away with about 13 or 14 positions on the field.

What can we do about defensive 50 runners? Two things really:

1/.Chase them hard from behind - no matter how futile it seems.
2/.Don't allow anyone ELSE to find space ahead of the ball...make them keep running (or ideally, slow down because of indecision). In other words - defenders hold their nerve and stay ON their men...don't provide an open kick-too target.

The end-result might be a running, bouncing goal from 55m...and if they are good enough to run 100m and kick a goal, good luck to them I reckon. More likely - they will kick it wide and it will roll out-of-bounds and it all starts again (but this time, WE spring our defensive runners and get the ball inside 50m in from of the fast moving Grant who kicks a goal) OR the guy chasing the runner - who slows due to indecision and lack of options - is able to pressure him into an error and we create a mid-field turnover.

Talking about isolation and such is all good in theory - and works well at junior (and even state level to be honest) but the AFL guys are too well drilled to allow it to be effective.

[Pembleton]

Well - you will. And it wont really matter what we do we aren't going to stop this. When we say 'isolate the defenders', well, that is fine - but the opposition wont allow it and will start by rolling their wingers down and then roll down the high-half forwards and then roll down the forward pocket players and then etc etc.

From a contested ball situation - the opposition will work to block and create space for their run and carry types (such as O'Brien and Shaw). And guys like O'Brien and Shaw will further exacerbate the situation by utilising their license to roll the dice and depend on a combination of the contested area AND their team-mates covering their back to get sprung into space.

The reason defensive forwards and hard-tags etc are basically obselete is that rotations have - to a large degree - done away with about 13 or 14 positions on the field.

What can we do about defensive 50 runners? Two things really:

1/.Chase them hard from behind - no matter how futile it seems.
2/.Don't allow anyone ELSE to find space ahead of the ball...make them keep running (or ideally, slow down because of indecision). In other words - defenders hold their nerve and stay ON their men...don't provide an open kick-too target.

The end-result might be a running, bouncing goal from 55m...and if they are good enough to run 100m and kick a goal, good luck to them I reckon. More likely - they will kick it wide and it will roll out-of-bounds and it all starts again (but this time, WE spring our defensive runners and get the ball inside 50m in from of the fast moving Grant who kicks a goal) OR the guy chasing the runner - who slows due to indecision and lack of options - is able to pressure him into an error and we create a mid-field turnover.

Talking about isolation and such is all good in theory - and works well at junior (and even state level to be honest) but the AFL guys are too well drilled to allow it to be effective.

I was going to say precisely the same thing, ofcourse, but given somebody else already has...

I lke reading posts that teach me stuff :)

[stefoid]

Well - you will. And it wont really matter what we do we aren't going to stop this. When we say 'isolate the defenders', well, that is fine - but the opposition wont allow it and will start by rolling their wingers down and then roll down the high-half forwards and then roll down the forward pocket players and then etc etc.

From a contested ball situation - the opposition will work to block and create space for their run and carry types (such as O'Brien and Shaw). And guys like O'Brien and Shaw will further exacerbate the situation by utilising their license to roll the dice and depend on a combination of the contested area AND their team-mates covering their back to get sprung into space.

.

Im not sure what you mean. Do you mean the opposition will flood their defence when we have the ball? That takes time. Obviously any attempt to isolate defenders is moot if the entire opposition side is in their back half.

These days the best chance to score is from a centre bounce or transitioning quickly from an opposition turnover. i.e. when the forwards have space. Thats when isolating the defenders is effective.

[chef]

Do we need a DF if we play with a forward press?

[mjp]

Im not sure what you mean. Do you mean the opposition will flood their defence when we have the ball? That takes time. Obviously any attempt to isolate defenders is moot if the entire opposition side is in their back half.

These days the best chance to score is from a centre bounce or transitioning quickly from an opposition turnover. i.e. when the forwards have space. Thats when isolating the defenders is effective.

You are right, which is why centre breaks and midfield/half-back turnovers are so important to scoring.

Isolating the defenders is still a challenge from set-plays...the opposition almost always roll an extra back and plonk them in between the most dangerous forwards. They also allow their opponents a 'boundary side' starting point and over-crowd corridor side...so if the centre break isn't really a 'break' - but a more usual force it forward kick - the defenders are in position 'a' and 'together' to provide a blocking/receiving option.

You can still isolate from forward line stoppages - to a point. You can open up the stoppage somewhat by moving a forward or two to a spot where they simply HAVE to be accounted for - but this doesn't really do much to restrict the opposition runners because they will never be the ones to leave the stoppage area to take up a defensive role.

I agree with you that establishing a forward line structure which forces the defenders to play one-on-one is a good idea as a starting point. It is leading patterns and support running to maintain that one-on-one structure when the ball is in transition that are more important though.

[Mofra]

Do we need a DF if we play with a forward press?
No, although I think the position is a load of bollocks anyway - if 1 forward doesn't chase, the opposition have a get out clause under no pressure (and pressure is the key).

"Defensive forward" is about as appropriate as "third tall"