Chris Grant on AFL 360

[Rocco Jones]

Did anyone else catch it? He was talking about why he took the role as our Footy Director. I know the whole 'Chris Grant is a great bloke' thing is going over old ground but wow!

'You hope you've been good for your club. I know for a fact they have been great for me as a person. I went in as a 16 year-old boy and came out a 34 year-old man and I feel like I'd like to give something back'.

The fact that a man who has given oh so much to our club actually thinks he owes us a heap, yeah.. I think I am always going to be a nine year-old fanboy when it comes to Granty.

[Go_Dogs]

It was very interesting - Granty spoke very well, actually a good little segment.

[jeemak]

I'm actually glad I've never met the guy.........because I'd turn in to an absolute fool if I did (well a bigger one than usual, anyway) and leer over him to the point where things would become uncomfortable and he might have to call for security.

He speaks very well, I don't watch many of the football shows for different reasons, it's times like these when it might almost be worthwhile to do so.

[LostDoggy]

Did anyone else catch it? He was talking about why he took the role as our Footy Director. I know the whole 'Chris Grant is a great bloke' thing is going over old ground but wow!

'You hope you've been good for your club. I know for a fact they have been great for me as a person. I went in as a 16 year-old boy and came out a 34 year-old man and I feel like I'd like to give something back'.

The fact that a man who has given oh so much to our club actually thinks he owes us a heap, yeah.. I think I am always going to be a nine year-old fanboy when it comes to Granty.

This is what makes him truly “great”, and separates him from blokes like Ward, Pendlebury, Ablett, Akermanis, etc.

He's the kind of guy you wish were in politics.

[Desipura]

This is what makes him truly “great”, and separates him from blokes like Ward, Pendlebury, Ablett, Akermanis, etc.

He's the kind of guy you wish were in politics.
What has Pendlebury done wrong?

[LostDoggy]

Didn't see the interview (no Foxtel) but not surprised at the great man! I've seen him round and about in Willie many times - he is always happy to stop for a chat or to just say g'day to people who acknowledge him. He is a true "man of the people", and we love him because of his loyalty, honesty and gee, he wasn't a bad footballer either!

[stefoid]

What has Pendlebury done wrong?

He plays for Collingwood!

[Bulldog Joe]

Didn't see the interview (no Foxtel) but not surprised at the great man! I've seen him round and about in Willie many times - he is always happy to stop for a chat or to just say g'day to people who acknowledge him. He is a true "man of the people", and we love him because of his loyalty, honesty and gee, he wasn't a bad footballer either!

I did watch and he also acknowledged Rocket for re-energising his playing career after Rhode. He also paid tribute to the footy club and taking him from boy to man.

He commented on the Dane Swan retirement article and the need for ex-players to still set an example as they will ALWAYS be public property.

A very sensible and well grounded individual is Chris Grant.

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

He plays for Collingwood!

Indeed

[Sedat]

Did anyone else catch it? He was talking about why he took the role as our Footy Director. I know the whole 'Chris Grant is a great bloke' thing is going over old ground but wow!

'You hope you've been good for your club. I know for a fact they have been great for me as a person. I went in as a 16 year-old boy and came out a 34 year-old man and I feel like I'd like to give something back'.

The fact that a man who has given oh so much to our club actually thinks he owes us a heap, yeah.. I think I am always going to be a nine year-old fanboy when it comes to Granty.
Our next president

[KT31]

Our next president

Wouldn't imagine he would want or even like the position.

[Sedat]

Wouldn't imagine he would want or even like the position.
His love for the club and his desire to give back to the club, coupled with his canny business acumen - I couldn't think of a better or more worthy successor to Smorgon

[Pickenitup]

Granty Is all class i absolutely Love this Bloke!

[LostDoggy]

What has Pendlebury done wrong?

Signing only a one-year contract extension, which many see as a sign he may go to GWS at the end of 2012. Even the story Collingwood gives about him “wanting to challenge himself” to be a better player than Dane Swan is based around Swan's pay. Although I admit I know nothing of the man personally, and I am going only by what's in the press, he however strikes me as a paycheck player. If Collingwood refuse to pay him more than Swan and GWS offer him the big bucks, I can see him going north.

And yes, he plays for Collingwood.

[Maddog37]

He has also been known to wear some questionable facial hair and a horrible Bali style beaded hairdo. Surely that must count against him!!!


Oh yeah......he also plays for Collingwood.

[Desipura]

Signing only a one-year contract extension, which many see as a sign he may go to GWS at the end of 2012. Even the story Collingwood gives about him “wanting to challenge himself” to be a better player than Dane Swan is based around Swan's pay. Although I admit I know nothing of the man personally, and I am going only by what's in the press, he however strikes me as a paycheck player. If Collingwood refuse to pay him more than Swan and GWS offer him the big bucks, I can see him going north.

And yes, he plays for Collingwood.

So he is a bad person because he is potentially making a good investment decision that will set him up for life? I get it. I smell tall poppy syndrome.
Supporters love for the club has nothing to do with the money, where there is a significant difference in pay, a player would be foolish to not take the money.

[Go_Dogs]

Supporters love for the club has nothing to do with the money, where there is a significant difference in pay, a player would be foolish to not take the money.

On the same panel, Cam Mooney basically said he'd leave (to go to GWS) for the money in a heartbeat, and any player would. Basically, gone are the days of people like Chris Grant (although I'd say we have a few like Griff etc) who make the choice not solely based on the financial gain.

[Dancin' Douggy]

On the same panel, Cam Mooney basically said he'd leave (to go to GWS) for the money in a heartbeat, and any player would. Basically, gone are the days of people like Chris Grant (although I'd say we have a few like Griff etc) who make the choice not solely based on the financial gain.

Have to say that Griffen's signing has been extremely undervalued by the footy world in General.

[Rocco Jones]

On the same panel, Cam Mooney basically said he'd leave (to go to GWS) for the money in a heartbeat, and any player would. Basically, gone are the days of people like Chris Grant (although I'd say we have a few like Griff etc) who make the choice not solely based on the financial gain.

I think it's too harsh/negative to use Grant as a benchmark on being a 'good' person. Instead of attacking those who don't live up to such high standards, I think we should celebrate guys like Grant. Sad that most of this thread is about negativity.

The players haven't changed, the game has. People say loyalty is dead but all things being relative, AFL footy is a very 'loyal' workplace/industry.

[mjp]

I think it's too harsh/negative to use Grant as a benchmark on being a 'good' person. Instead of attacking those who don't live up to such high standards, I think we should celebrate guys like Grant. Sad that most of this thread is about negativity.

The players haven't changed, the game has. People say loyalty is dead but all things being relative, AFL footy is a very 'loyal' workplace/industry.

Agree with all of this RJ.

The players do a lot and are very loyal to their clubs...and if you look at the amount of pixels on this site alone expended on the Griffen re-signing vs Ward leaving your first point is also patently true.

[Go_Dogs]

I think it's too harsh/negative to use Grant as a benchmark on being a 'good' person. Instead of attacking those who don't live up to such high standards, I think we should celebrate guys like Grant. Sad that most of this thread is about negativity.

The players haven't changed, the game has. People say loyalty is dead but all things being relative, AFL footy is a very 'loyal' workplace/industry.

I'd missed this till now, and I think you're right. Very interesting post.

I actually don't think this thread is really too negative, but the focus does seem to be on the negative rather than the positive more often than not (which is a reflection of society as a whole in my opinion and certainly not isolated to sport).

It may be quite unrealistic and unreasonable to expect everyone to show loyalty like Grant did, and there are a number of examples of loyalty that often go unnoticed.

I wonder how this perception/mindset could be changed?

[BornInDroopSt'54]

This is what makes him truly “great”, and separates him from blokes like Ward, Pendlebury, Ablett, Akermanis, etc.

He's the kind of guy you wish were in politics.

Yes. Yet Collins thought the opposite and believed he needed to be weeded out as a head hunter.

[chef]

What has Pendlebury done wrong?

He didn't get drafted by the Bulldogs;)

[LostDoggy]

So he is a bad person because he is potentially making a good investment decision that will set him up for life? I get it. I smell tall poppy syndrome.
Supporters love for the club has nothing to do with the money, where there is a significant difference in pay, a player would be foolish to not take the money.

Set him up for life. That's right. Himself. Him alone.

This is a team sport. Give me “tall poppy” bullshit if you must, but I find it difficult to respect selfish individuals playing a team sport.

[Desipura]

Set him up for life. That's right. Himself. Him alone.

This is a team sport. Give me “tall poppy” bullshit if you must, but I find it difficult to respect selfish individuals playing a team sport.

If you were working in a team for your employer and you got offered 3 times what you are currently earning, what would you do? Stay with your team?

[Sockeye Salmon]

If you were working in a team for your employer and you got offered 3 times what you are currently earning, what would you do? Stay with your team?

I really hate that analogy.

1) I'm not already being paid 5-10 times the average wage.
2) My primary objective is to get paid, and while job satisfaction is nice, I won't celebrate with my co-workers for week and get a tattoo if we win 'Best Widgets 2012'.
3) I don't have 10,000 kids wearing my number on their backs or asking me for autographs.

[Swoop]

I think Mooney was allluding to the situation where a cashed up side aka GWS who require experience offer him a lurcative contract for a 3 year term where his original club may only feel he has 1-2 years left on a incentive based contract. I thought his honesty was refreshing when he said other factors such as the financial security of his family would become his number 1 priority as he begins to contemplate life after football. I don't have an issue with it but understand why some other may, different strokes for different folks.

[Desipura]

I really hate that analogy.

1) I'm not already being paid 5-10 times the average wage.
2) My primary objective is to get paid, and while job satisfaction is nice, I won't celebrate with my co-workers for week and get a tattoo if we win 'Best Widgets 2012'.
3) I don't have 10,000 kids wearing my number on their backs or asking me for autographs.

I think you are still stuck in a time warp, duffel coats were in back in the 80s

[LostDoggy]

If you were working in a team for your employer and you got offered 3 times what you are currently earning, what would you do? Stay with your team?

I don't say this very often, but I've heard this analogy once too many times, so:

When I chose to move into the NGO sector my pay dropped to one quarter of what I was earning in the corporate world. So not only do people stay at a place for less money than they can make somewhere else, some of us take massive pay cuts in exchange for meaningful work.

You can't tell me that, in a team game, moving to a soulless start-up is more meaningful than staying at the place that gave you your start, with a million adoring fans, has all your mates in it, and is prepared to give you a shitload of money anyway (that should set one up for life anyway if one has any brains at all).

Sure, some of us value money more than all that "meaning", but don't then pretend that it's not the case, or get offended when people call a spade a spade. If it's for the money and for one's family, then own the decision and at least admit to what it is. At least people will respect you for being honest.

Also, don't just assume that because money is everything to you (not you, Desi, 'you' the player I'm addressing), that it's the same for everyone else, or assume that everyone would do the same thing if put in your shoes, so don't be surprised that a lot of people will not respect your decision. Sure it may not make you a 'bad' person per se, but people are well within their rights to call it a materialistic or shallow decision, especially if it's a cynical cash grab from a young player who hasn't achieved anything in their career to date.

[LostDoggy]

Look, it's also pretty easy to disprove the 'everyone would take the money' argument: like mjp says, most players are actually quite loyal, which is why such disloyalty stands out so much. If it is such a 'simple decision' to simply go for more money, why haven't more players gone to GWS and Gold Coast? Why did they have such a hard time getting real guns or players with deep leadership and character to go over? Why is GC full of mercenary types and GWS full of kids and retirees? If it's such an open and shut case, why didn't all the gun players of the league offer themselves to the start-ups? I'm sure Jimmy Bartel or Stevie Johnson or Nick Riewoldt or Griff or Goodes or Swan or Pav could have gotten a heck of a lot more money at GWS, so why haven't they all moved over?

[Murphy'sLore]

Isn't it also a bit simplistic to paint all those who do 'go over' as shallow/mercenary/bad people? None of us really know the whole story behind these decisions. Maybe they are motivated by wanting financial security for their families; maybe they're actually not happy at their existing club, for whatever reason; maybe they want a fresh start and a new adventure.
Look, it's great when players stay loyal and it's a happy story for everyone. But maybe we shouldn't be so quick to condemn those few who do make a different choice, without knowing the whole picture.

[LostDoggy]

If you were working in a team for your employer and you got offered 3 times what you are currently earning, what would you do? Stay with your team?

Whilst perhaps not to a magnitude of 3, I have been offered significantly more money to change before, and knocked it back to stay with my manager, who has for years had my back every step of the way and is a fantastic bloke, worthy of my loyalty.

And as SS says, I don't have 10,000 kids with my number on their back either.

How any Bulldogs fan in particular can be happy that loyalty may be dying in football circles simply astounds me. We don't have, nor will we have in the short to medium term, the resources to woo these paycheck players. Loyalty is something that is key to us ever being successful as a club.

[LostDoggy]

Whilst perhaps not to a magnitude of 3, I have been offered significantly more money to change before, and knocked it back to stay with my manager, who has for years had my back every step of the way and is a fantastic bloke, worthy of my loyalty.

And as SS says, I don't have 10,000 kids with my number on their back either.

How any Bulldogs fan in particular can be happy that loyalty may be dying in football circles simply astounds me. We don't have, nor will we have in the short to medium term, the resources to woo these paycheck players. Loyalty is something that is key to us ever being successful as a club.

This.

[Desipura]

Whilst perhaps not to a magnitude of 3, I have been offered significantly more money to change before, and knocked it back to stay with my manager, who has for years had my back every step of the way and is a fantastic bloke, worthy of my loyalty.

And as SS says, I don't have 10,000 kids with my number on their back either.

How any Bulldogs fan in particular can be happy that loyalty may be dying in football circles simply astounds me. We don't have, nor will we have in the short to medium term, the resources to woo these paycheck players. Loyalty is something that is key to us ever being successful as a club.
Full credit to you for staying loyal to your manager, if was offered slightly more money and was happy with my current employer (which I am), I to would stay loyal.

Having said that, I am looking at moving house at a more convenient location for all the family. It just so happens that this location is more expensive than where I currently live. If I was offered double or triple the money and not have worry about how much my next house is going to cost, I would be doing my family an injustice not to accept it.

[LostDoggy]

Having said that, I am looking at moving house at a more convenient location for all the family. It just so happens that this location is more expensive than where I currently live. If I was offered double or triple the money and not have worry about how much my next house is going to cost, I would be doing my family an injustice not to accept it.

Oh of course! You would be silly not to (all things being equal), but I just don't see how there's any comparison between that and, say, the Ward situation. As SS said, it's not like we were going to pay him minimum wage.

It's also slightly different in a corporate situation, as a company's money comes from profits and paying customers.

In an AFL situation, similar to my work with non-profits, a large chunk of money comes from fans and members (and from various donors in my case). It requires a whole different level of accountability because of where the money comes from. Sure, footy players can say the money is coming from Channel 9, and Channel 9 is getting the money from advertisers, but that only works because we care and put money into the game in the first place. There would be no billion dollar TV deal without the fans and members, and as members who collectively put in a good 15-20 million a year into the club's coffers from our own pockets, we are well within our rights to collectively expect some level of commitment from the employees of the place, surely?

[chef]

Wards just going from being very rich to being very, very rich.

[GVGjr]

I really hate that analogy.

1) I'm not already being paid 5-10 times the average wage.
2) My primary objective is to get paid, and while job satisfaction is nice, I won't celebrate with my co-workers for week and get a tattoo if we win 'Best Widgets 2012'.
3) I don't have 10,000 kids wearing my number on their backs or asking me for autographs.

You might not be getting paid the same sort of money but you have an infinitely longer window of opportunity to plan your eventual transition into retirement. If you are suddenly dismissed as part of restructure etc providing you have a reasonable tenure and the company is half decent you will also receive compensation in the form of redundancy and have your annual leave entitlements paid out.

Footballers can be dismissed from their club regardless if their form warrants it or not and it's not that easy to find another home in that field. This can also happen because the club has mismanaged their salary cap and has the convenience of an expiring player contract that just about makes the decision for them.

A fair portion of the players don't play 50 games of football and the tenure for a lot of players is often somewhere between 2 and 4 years.

I don't like the notion of greedy players but it's the price we pay for the so called professionalism era the AFL has entered.

I can't begin to describe how much I admire Chris Grant for knocking back Port and the way he conducted himself as a person but to use him as a yardstick to compare other players against isn't right. Chris had been in the the highest paid at the club bracket for years before he knocked back Port and he was probably getting 10 times plus more than some of the first and second year players at the club.
He deserved every cent of it though.

I don't buy the argument that because a sportsman is being paid exceptionally well he should just accept that his current employer will look after his best interest and that he should allow them to manage his career until they determine it's time for him to go.

[ledge]

Maybe he wants to have enough money in the bank to never have to work again after footy.
Nothing wrong with that.

[LostDoggy]

You might not be getting paid the same sort of money but you have an infinitely longer window of opportunity to plan your eventual transition into retirement.
I don't like that argument either. They finish football, its not like they are useless from then on and can't earn money elsewhere. I bet it opens a lot more doors for them.


If you are suddenly dismissed as part of restructure etc providing you have a reasonable tenure and the company is half decent you will also receive compensation in the form of redundancy and have your annual leave entitlements paid out.
You'll find this doesn't happen as much today in everyday jobs with rise in the number of casual, self employed or contract positions.

[GVGjr]

When I chose to move into the NGO sector my pay dropped to one quarter of what I was earning in the corporate world. So not only do people stay at a place for less money than they can make somewhere else, some of us take massive pay cuts in exchange for meaningful work.



I have a few question that I think might help me understand the context of what you are saying and how it might actually compare to a footballer.

- How many years in the workplace (at a what appears to be a very high corporate salary) had you completed before you made the decision to drop the wage by 75%?

Most footballers earn good money for just a few years but sure the elite ones do well over a far longer journey

- Did you have the luxury of getting your finances in order beforehand and if so did that assist with the decision you made?

Some footballers are managed out before they have had a chance to secure their future

- Did you make that decision at the age of 21 or 22 or were you at that age just starting on your path to earning big money?

I might be wrong but your decision sounds like one made by a highly educated mature minded person not someone who is just 2 or 3 years out of high school

Now this will sound silly but:
- Was you departure from the corporate world job regarded by all and sundry as a low act or were you congratulated on your gutsy decision and given a fitting farewell?




You can't tell me that, in a team game, moving to a soulless start-up is more meaningful than staying at the place that gave you your start, with a million adoring fans, has all your mates in it, and is prepared to give you a shitload of money anyway (that should set one up for life anyway if one has any brains at all).


I talked to Tony McGuinness years ago and it meant a lot to him to join the Crows from day one. Of course he had emotional ties to Adelaide unlike those moving to GWS and GC so it's not a great rebuke of what you have written but at the time it was certainly entering a new frontier in the way fans started questioning the loyalties and intentions of players.
I just don't know how we can second guess peoples intentions and just sign it off as a mercenary act because it can't be that black and white.

[GVGjr]

I don't like that argument either. They finish football, its not like they are useless from then on and can't earn money elsewhere. I bet it open a lot more doors for them.


Of course it isn't but the door to their chosen field can be slammed shut on them and they have no say in it. I think doors might open for them if they have been successful footballers but the below averages ones have to find their own way.
.



You'll find this doesn't happen as much today in everyday jobs with rise in the number of casual, self employed or contract positions.
The question posed is around who is regarded as loyal and contractors aren't always treated with loyalty by employers
Footballers are very much contract workers and that's why they need luck and a good club to ensure they can transition to life after football successfully.

[LostDoggy]

Of course it isn't but the door to their chosen field can be slammed shut on them and they have no say in it. I think doors might open for them if they have been successful footballers but the below averages ones have to find their own way.
I wanted to be a football or cricket star too but through lack of ability that door shut for me too. Little difference from anyone else. People also change careers all the time.
Not sure as many people get a job they love even for 1 or 2 years together with a great wage.


The question posed is around who is regarded as loyal and contractors aren't always treated with loyalty by employers
Footballers are very much contract workers and that's why they need luck and a good club to ensure they can transition to life after football successfully.
And they are renumerated as well paid contractors. Thats the trade off.
Its still very different to your everyday contractor say in IT, a casual employee or someone self employed. They have long terms(even 1 year is long in IT). Many regular people have no union helping them out (unlike the AFLPA). Insurance is usually up to you. Sick pay (well unless you planed for it you aren't covered) and annual leave is similar (don't work you don't get paid). They are also sponsered and kitted out as well.

[GVGjr]

Whilst perhaps not to a magnitude of 3, I have been offered significantly more money to change before, and knocked it back to stay with my manager, who has for years had my back every step of the way and is a fantastic bloke, worthy of my loyalty.

.

It's good that you feel secure and the fact that you trust your company and your direct manager but I wonder how many footballers actually feel the same level of trust and security that you do?
If you didn't get on that great with your boss and you weren't sure of your future with your company would you confident that you still would have dismissed a bigger offer from a prospective employer as quickly?

[Ghost Dog]

I wanted to be a football or cricket star too but through lack of ability that door shut for me too. Little difference from anyone else. People also change careers all the time.
Not sure as many people get a job they love even for 1 or 2 years together with a great wage.


And they are renumerated as well paid contractors. Thats the trade off.
Its still very different to your everyday contractor say in IT, a casual employee or someone self employed. They have long terms(even 1 year is long in IT). Many regular people have no union helping them out (unlike the AFLPA). Insurance is usually up to you. Sick pay (well unless you planed for it you aren't covered) and annual leave is similar (don't work you don't get paid). They are also sponsered and kitted out as well.

Not many jobs you can loose a kidney in. Look at JBrown. I see someone kneed him in the head again today. That bloke's skull must have more plates than a greek restaurant.

[westdog54]

I wanted to be a football or cricket star too but through lack of ability that door shut for me too. Little difference from anyone else. People also change careers all the time.
Not sure as many people get a job they love even for 1 or 2 years together with a great wage.


And they are renumerated as well paid contractors. Thats the trade off.
Its still very different to your everyday contractor say in IT, a casual employee or someone self employed. They have long terms(even 1 year is long in IT). Many regular people have no union helping them out (unlike the AFLPA). Insurance is usually up to you. Sick pay (well unless you planed for it you aren't covered) and annual leave is similar (don't work you don't get paid). They are also sponsered and kitted out as well.

1) Massive generalisation
2) Average career expectancy for an AFL footballer is about 4 years. Not employer, career.
3) There's a union for just about every profession out there if one is willing to join it. The Police Association has about a 98% membership rate.

[LostDoggy]

Not many jobs you can loose a kidney in. Look at JBrown. I see someone kneed him in the head again today. That bloke's skull must have more plates than a greek restaurant.

Again he gets paid accordingly. I'll be backing into packs with his size and on his pay.
There are riskier jobs around anyway. Ask west dog. He won't be on J Brown's pay.

[LostDoggy]

1) Massive generalisation
Why is it a generalization that footballers are well paid? it's known.

2) Average career expectancy for an AFL footballer is about 4 years. Not employer, career.
Not sure the point of this? Already mentioned their life isn't over once they stop football. There are plenty of other careers. Many of us will take 4 years of football over a lifetime of regular work. Probably earn as much.


3) There's a union for just about every profession out there if one is willing to join it. The Police Association has about a 98% membership rate.
Fair enough. In IT there wasn't one that was easily accessible nor were the benefits worthwhile.
As a self employed person you get bugger all. Not sure about casuals.

[Swoop]

[QUOTE=Chops;257492]Why is it a generalization that footballers are well paid? it's known.

I'm sure the story of Cam Pedersen from North Melbourne is well known but for those that don't know it, last year Brad Scott approached him as he was twice caught falling asleep in team meetings. It was discovered that after being rookie listed he was obviously forced to quit his full time employment and his 36k rookie salary wasn't enough to support his family so he had been working nightshift at Bunnings. After learning this the club arranged for him to get some part time work around the club in order to make the difference and still accommodate his football commitments.

Yes the average footballer is paid well, however the average footballer has less than 5 years in the game and even half the average are able to forge ten year careers out of the game. We're all trying to argue our own black and white points and refuse to accept any grey in-between. Footballers are people who happen to be extraordinarily good at a game but unfortunately that doesn't necessarily make them good people or role models. I would argue most of them are but nonetheless just like society they are made up of all kinds from all corners of the nation and even the globe. Some of them have different priorities and place higher values on different things, it is their right, what is most annoying is people casting generalizations based on ones decision without knowing the person or any of the factors that made up their whole decision. Furthermore those who judge in comparison to themselves, two different people with a million different factors, upbringing & priorities none any more correct than the other but at the end of the day they are elite athletes and the scrutiny & opinion is a by-product of the industry they are in.

[Ghost Dog]

[QUOTE=Chops;257492]Why is it a generalization that footballers are well paid? it's known.

I'm sure the story of Cam Pedersen from North Melbourne is well known but for those that don't know it, last year Brad Scott approached him as he was twice caught falling asleep in team meetings. It was discovered that after being rookie listed he was obviously forced to quit his full time employment and his 36k rookie salary wasn't enough to support his family so he had been working nightshift at Bunnings. After learning this the club arranged for him to get some part time work around the club in order to make the difference and still accommodate his football commitments.

Yes the average footballer is paid well, however the average footballer has less than 5 years in the game and even half the average are able to forge ten year careers out of the game. We're all trying to argue our own black and white points and refuse to accept any grey in-between. Footballers are people who happen to be extraordinarily good at a game but unfortunately that doesn't necessarily make them good people or role models. I would argue most of them are but nonetheless just like society they are made up of all kinds from all corners of the nation and even the globe. Some of them have different priorities and place higher values on different things, it is their right, what is most annoying is people casting generalizations based on ones decision without knowing the person or any of the factors that made up their whole decision. Furthermore those who judge in comparison to themselves, two different people with a million different factors, upbringing & priorities none any more correct than the other but at the end of the day they are elite athletes and the scrutiny & opinion is a by-product of the industry they are in.


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[LostDoggy]

I'm sure the story of Cam Pedersen from North Melbourne is well known but for those that don't know it, last year Brad Scott approached him as he was twice caught falling asleep in team meetings. It was discovered that after being rookie listed he was obviously forced to quit his full time employment and his 36k rookie salary wasn't enough to support his family so he had been working nightshift at Bunnings. After learning this the club arranged for him to get some part time work around the club in order to make the difference and still accommodate his football commitments.



I'm pretty sure an apprentice at the same age as Pederson get less the 36K pa. Again they are better paid than the general public.

[Dancin' Douggy]

If you were working in a team for your employer and you got offered 3 times what you are currently earning, what would you do? Stay with your team?

Chris Grant did. That's what this whole discussion is about. It's about glory, commitment, sacrifice, not what your accountant would advise.

[Mantis]

I'm pretty sure an apprentice at the same age as Pederson get less the 36K pa. Again they are better paid than the general public.

How many apprentices do you know who are 24? ( Pederson's age last year)

[LostDoggy]

How many apprentices do you know who are 24? ( Pederson's age last year)

I don't know any but I bet there are and older ones as well.

The comparison was made between those at the bottom level at afl level. The first thing I thought of was an apprentice. There are people worse off in terms of wages than apprentices. Eg some on disability payments, pension or dole.

I just don't get this. 'Poor is me, I'm an afl footballer'

[Sockeye Salmon]

They are also only doing this football thing part time.


Most are studying, or if they aren't it's their own fault because they should be.

Most uni students are waiting tables to pay the rent.

[strebla]

I talked to Tony McGuinness years ago and it meant a lot to him to join the Crows from day one. Of course he had emotional ties to Adelaide unlike those moving to GWS and GC so it's not a great rebuke of what you have written but at the time it was certainly entering a new frontier in the way fans started questioning the loyalties and intentions of players.
I just don't know how we can second guess peoples intentions and just sign it off as a mercenary act because it can't be that black and white.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry but Tony was a loyal and honest bulldog I asked him halfway through his last year at the club what he would do and he said if there is ab team in Adelaide I am going home. None of this I don't know yet bullshit or waiting to see how much he could get paid he wanted to go home and that's it yes it hurt but his honesty to me has always stuck with me which is why lays year pissed me off so much!!

[Mofra]

Yes the average footballer is paid well, however the average footballer has less than 5 years in the game and even half the average are able to forge ten year careers out of the game.
5 years is longer than many people spend in their respective careers though.

Only one of my 4 "careers" I've had lasted longer than 5 years - I'm always looking to move onto to something different if I get itchy feet or sniff out an opportunity.
Starting a new career (even if the last one has given you a leg-up, such as the enourmous networking opportunities afforded to AFL players) is simply not as scary a proposition as some try to make out.

[LostDoggy]

Of course it isn't but the door to their chosen field can be slammed shut on them and they have no say in it. I think doors might open for them if they have been successful footballers but the below averages ones have to find their own way.

The question posed is around who is regarded as loyal and contractors aren't always treated with loyalty by employers
Footballers are very much contract workers and that's why they need luck and a good club to ensure they can transition to life after football successfully.

My first career path in life was in the Navy. It's what I'd always wanted to do since a very young age. I won't bore you with my whole life story, but basically I was forced to leave the RAN after only 4 years.

What did I do? I got on with my life. Footballers can do the same.


It's good that you feel secure and the fact that you trust your company and your direct manager but I wonder how many footballers actually feel the same level of trust and security that you do?
If you didn't get on that great with your boss and you weren't sure of your future with your company would you confident that you still would have dismissed a bigger offer from a prospective employer as quickly?

I get your point here and agree with you on this one. However, I must say, players aren't leaving to GWS because they don't like the people at the Dogs, and if they are, they're not saying so. In fact, they're saying the opposite. The only defense used is “How can I refuse that much money?”


Not many jobs you can loose a kidney in. Look at JBrown. I see someone kneed him in the head again today. That bloke's skull must have more plates than a greek restaurant.

This is a great point, I must admit.


They are also only doing this football thing part time.

Most are studying, or if they aren't it's their own fault because they should be.

Most uni students are waiting tables to pay the rent.

Exactly. They can easily develop a false view of reality.


5 years is longer than many people spend in their respective careers though.

Only one of my 4 "careers" I've had lasted longer than 5 years - I'm always looking to move onto to something different if I get itchy feet or sniff out an opportunity.
Starting a new career (even if the last one has given you a leg-up, such as the enourmous networking opportunities afforded to AFL players) is simply not as scary a proposition as some try to make out.

You are usually forced to start again at the bottom of the chain, but if you're a driven, motivated and able person, you can very easily climb back up.

[bornadog]

How many apprentices do you know who are 24? ( Pederson's age last year)

Pederson chose to play footy, thats the pay so bad luck



I just don't get this. 'Poor is me, I'm an afl footballer'

Couldn't agree more. Being paid to play sport to me is the ultimate.

[LostDoggy]

I have a few question that I think might help me understand the context of what you are saying and how it might actually compare to a footballer.

- How many years in the workplace (at a what appears to be a very high corporate salary) had you completed before you made the decision to drop the wage by 75%?

- Did you have the luxury of getting your finances in order beforehand and if so did that assist with the decision you made?

- Did you make that decision at the age of 21 or 22 or were you at that age just starting on your path to earning big money?

Now this will sound silly but:
- Was you departure from the corporate world job regarded by all and sundry as a low act or were you congratulated on your gutsy decision and given a fitting farewell?



Hi GVG -- haha, didn't expect my life story to be plastered over WOOF, but it's fair enough I suppose if I'm going to criticize to expect some scrutiny.

Okay, I won't go into every detail of everything, but I suppose I can say that by no means did I have my finances sorted when I made a decision to take the cut in income. I don't think that makes me a martyr -- the reality is that I've always turned down higher paying opportunities if a more meaningful option was available. For example, when I first graduated from architecture (early 20s) I was working with an architecture firm (architecture graduates are among the lowest paid anyway) but I decided to go do a research and infrastructure project in rural India for three years on a tiny scholarship that only covered my very basic accommodation there. I came back and worked for a few years consulting but I had barely climbed into a basic professional wage (you'll just have to trust me when I say it wasn't much) when I then took a leap back into postgraduate study. I was lucky enough to be on a scholarship that covered my fees, but anyone who's ever done a PhD here will know that you're basically skint the whole time.

When I came out after finishing my post-doctorate study I did have some very good offers and I took one of them, which was the most money I had ever made. However, I only stayed there for a year before jumping off into NGO work. I have to say that at the point of decision I was also offered another corporate job that was nearly double what I was then being paid, but I went with the NGO job, so not only did I go down to a quarter of my then salary, but actually closer to 1/8th of the other job offer (which I didn't consider seriously anyway, because it had nothing else going for it other than the money and I would have had to sell my soul to take the job -- hmm, sound familiar?)

Now, I don't say all this with any sense of self-righteousness whatsoever. In fact, I don't really think of it as all that much of a sacrifice, and actually think I'm pretty lucky to have had the choice of meaningful work, regardless of pay. It's also pretty interesting work, and there are good perks like travel (although a lot of the travel is actually anything but glamorous.. believe me).

Was I financially set up? Well, maybe you should ask my (now) wife, but at the time we weren't married, and I had to defer proposing to her, and I moved to a much smaller place, until I could save up again. Nonetheless, I've always saved like crazy so I've been able to set a few things up since then, and I do think we are lucky and some of the richest people in the world (even though I swear you would NOT think I was making a lot if I told you the number, at least in an Australian context). It's just that we forget how rich we really are as a nation sometimes, and how much we spend on crap that we don't need! :)

Did I get any personal kudos for making the switch? Nope. If anything, my cred took a big hit in the corporate world because some corporate assholes use your income as a scorecard, so I was seen as stupid. I still cop that sometimes. My family and my wife have come around to it, especially since they've realised that you can actually live reasonably comfortably here on low-ish salaries. Finally, my career realignment was a pretty major one, and like some have said here, you go pretty close to the bottom of the ladder when you do that, so I think the hardest thing to give up was just being seen as an 'expert' and all the reputation I had built up in my previous industry. I've built that back up again over the last decade, but it hasn't always been easy. I have also been offered a few opportunities to go back to the corporate world for significantly better pay, but I've never really been tempted, even though this is NOT an easy industry to work in. Sure I was probably more mature than some of these footballers, but it's not necessarily an age thing.. when I made my jump nearly 10 years ago I was not much older than a lot of these guys, and even in my early 20s I found it pretty easy to forego commercially attractive opportunities for meaningful work like the India opportunity.

Again, I don't think this makes me special in any way: I'm comfortable enough, and I don't expect that everyone will choose my path -- but I just think that if you're given a choice between making a truckload of money vs. making a slightly smaller truckload of money and staying with your mates at a club that loves you and having a chance to achieve something meaningful with them and you choose the meaningless bigger truckload, it's not unreasonable for you to be called a mercenary. It's also not unreasonable for a lot of people to choose not to respect you for being a mercenary and to think that you are a shallow douchebag.

Now, it's understandable that an easy way to justify that to yourself is to claim that everyone else is also a mercenary, but it's simply not true, and LOTS of people will actually choose the more meaningful option (A Footscray boy going to GWS is not even comparable to a SA native going back to Adelaide).

[LostDoggy]

Apologies for the lengthy post. If it was painful to read just at least be thankful you didn't have to live through it! Haha. :D

[bornadog]

Apologies for the lengthy post. If it was painful to read just at least be thankful you didn't have to live through it! Haha. :D

I thought it was one of your shorter posts:D

[LostDoggy]

I thought it was one of your shorter posts:D

Haha good one. :D

[strebla]

Apologies for the lengthy post. If it was painful to read just at least be thankful you didn't have to live through it! Haha. :D

Great post really enjoyed it Lantern.

[mjp]

Great post really enjoyed it Lantern.

Me too.

[GVGjr]

I get your point here and agree with you on this one. However, I must say, players aren't leaving to GWS because they don't like the people at the Dogs, and if they are, they're not saying so. In fact, they're saying the opposite. The only defense used is “How can I refuse that much money?”



This is the point I don't get. How many players did GWS actually get from other clubs outside of the ones they traded for? Some carry like they ripped the heart out of our side. We lost one that we wanted to keep and we traded one who we didn't have a position for and thats all. The club is bigger than that but some seem hell bent on questioning the integrity of any player that puts a premium on earning as many dollars as they can in the time that they have in the game.
Sure there are players like Chris Grant that bucked the trend but as I have previously explained he was a very highly paid player anyway and the decision might have been an easier one for him to make. I just don't have the time to wallow in the fact that Ward left us for more money. He's made the decision and I think it was the wrong one but the club will receive compensation for it and hopefully get on with the job at hand.

I just find it interesting that Ward receives all the lumps and Harbrow escapes any sort of scrutiny. Harbrow just dressed up the reason why he accepted the money a bit better than most but lets gets serious, he was never going to leave us to go to Brisbane.

[LostDoggy]

I just find it interesting that Ward receives all the lumps and Harbrow escapes any sort of scrutiny. Harbrow just dressed up the reason why he accepted the money a bit better than most but lets gets serious, he was never going to leave us to go to Brisbane.

This is an absolutely valid point -- everywhere I've said "Ward" you can interchange with "Harbrow".

I just wanted to quickly say also that, contrary to appearances, I've moved on quite a bit from the trade -- my intention in writing about this 'issue' in the last few days was not to revisit the trade, but just to counter the assertion that it's somehow 'normal' for money to be the sole motivating factor in life decisions. I'm sure many, many posters on WOOF have taken financial hits to set up businesses, or to become their own boss, or take care of family, or take on what may be more meaningful work, and I just found that assertion disrespectful, that's all.

If anything, I set up the 'In Appreciation of Loyalty' thread because I wanted the focus to go the other way; to spend as much time and pixel-counts as possible on those who have stayed, not those who have left.

Ward can do whatever he likes! :)

[Topdog]

In a question of loyalty and tripling your salary why are AFL rookies and AFL players that have careers lasting less than 5 years even being discussed?

[Bulldog4life]

How many apprentices do you know who are 24? ( Pederson's age last year)

Under the Adult Apprenticeship Scheme I'm sure there would be hundreds at least. I know one who is 39 years old!

[Hotdog60]

Under the Adult Apprenticeship Scheme I'm sure there would be hundreds at least. I know one who is 39 years old!

I know a bloke from work who quit to become an Electrician at 34, there are government incentives for mature age apprentices.

[LostDoggy]

This is the point I don't get. How many players did GWS actually get from other clubs outside of the ones they traded for? Some carry like they ripped the heart out of our side. We lost one that we wanted to keep and we traded one who we didn't have a position for and thats all. The club is bigger than that but some seem hell bent on questioning the integrity of any player that puts a premium on earning as many dollars as they can in the time that they have in the game.
Sure there are players like Chris Grant that bucked the trend but as I have previously explained he was a very highly paid player anyway and the decision might have been an easier one for him to make. I just don't have the time to wallow in the fact that Ward left us for more money. He's made the decision and I think it was the wrong one but the club will receive compensation for it and hopefully get on with the job at hand.

I just find it interesting that Ward receives all the lumps and Harbrow escapes any sort of scrutiny. Harbrow just dressed up the reason why he accepted the money a bit better than most but lets gets serious, he was never going to leave us to go to Brisbane.

I should have said “because they don't like the people at their club”. I was referring to players from all clubs. Like Scully as another example. Went for the money.

If that's what they want, good luck to them. But they don't get my respect, and when we play them, they are the enemy. That's what they chose, that's what they're being paid for.

[Remi Moses]

I guess I was vocal because I think it's important to leave a legacy in the game.
I'll have forgotten Callan by the time we get our priority.

[immortalmike]

I guess I was vocal because I think it's important to leave a legacy in the game.
I'll have forgotten Callan by the time we get our priority.

With the way young Cassius played in the NAB I've already forgotten the Million Dollar Bouffant.

[jeemak]

Something we all need to consider is the game has taken a significant step forward in terms of player management and rewards since the Great Man decided to stick with us.

Chris Grant did something that was not expected from a top line player in his day, and that was over 15 years ago. The game has changed in so many ways since then, and I really don't think the culture of loyalty and "one player, one team" resonates with the younger players that are coming in to the system today.

The elite kids that enter the system these days have already had to make the decision to disregard their local or school teams (unless they're fortunate enough to get a private education) many times over before they've even been drafted, because they've had to chase the squad positions to get ahead of their peers.

I don't like it anymore than the next person of course, but the next groups of players that come out of the junior system are going to be more inclined to chase the option that can maximise their income and get themselves ahead more than we've seen already. It's a downside of professional sport, and something that people in Chris Grant's era didn't have to deal with from such a young age, by and large.

[Scraggers]

Great post really enjoyed it Lantern.


Me too.

As did I !!

[immortalmike]

Something we all need to consider is the game has taken a significant step forward in terms of player management and rewards since the Great Man decided to stick with us.

Chris Grant did something that was not expected from a top line player in his day, and that was over 15 years ago. The game has changed in so many ways since then, and I really don't think the culture of loyalty and "one player, one team" resonates with the younger players that are coming in to the system today.

The elite kids that enter the system these days have already had to make the decision to disregard their local or school teams (unless they're fortunate enough to get a private education) many times over before they've even been drafted, because they've had to chase the squad positions to get ahead of their peers.

I don't like it anymore than the next person of course, but the next groups of players that come out of the junior system are going to be more inclined to chase the option that can maximise their income and get themselves ahead more than we've seen already. It's a downside of professional sport, and something that people in Chris Grant's era didn't have to deal with from such a young age, by and large.

If this is true we are in deep trouble. Fortunately I disagree with you and I think you'll find that there has been just as many displays of loyalty recently as there have been Ward type mercs. It has always been this way and hopefully will always be this way. Some players have character and loyalty and some don't, Ward didn't but Higgins (whatever you may think of him), Swallow and Martin did. Much like Buckley didn't and Grant did.

[LostDoggy]

Signing only a one-year contract extension, which many see as a sign he may go to GWS at the end of 2012. Even the story Collingwood gives about him “wanting to challenge himself” to be a better player than Dane Swan is based around Swan's pay. Although I admit I know nothing of the man personally, and I am going only by what's in the press, he however strikes me as a paycheck player. If Collingwood refuse to pay him more than Swan and GWS offer him the big bucks, I can see him going north.

And yes, he plays for Collingwood.

I'll be the first to admit I was wrong. I'm sure Collingwood paid through the nose, and I hope it's all within the cap without dodgy third-party agreements, but the fact is I misread and misjudged the man.

[stefoid]

Collingwood will look after him, they have more money than they know what to do with - he will get a job studding boots for $300K a year or running a collingwood pub or something after he retires. They call it 'culture.'

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Cloke's an interesting one too.

It's hard to picture him leaving, but putting off talks is never a great sign IMO. It says to me he's open to persuasion.

[SlimPickens]

Cloke's an interesting one too.

It's hard to picture him leaving, but putting off talks is never a great sign IMO. It says to me he's open to persuasion.

Jason has been spruiking he is gone!

[Maddog37]

I know nothing about it but I reckon he is gone too.

Reckon Sheeds is into Paddy Ryder also, just a hunch but probably wrong.

[Sedat]

Cloke's an interesting one too.

It's hard to picture him leaving, but putting off talks is never a great sign IMO. It says to me he's open to persuasion.
Cloke Snr is one of the biggest cash-whores going around. The previous contract negotiations with the Clokes were messy, protracted and uncomfortable, with David going to the media to turn the heat right on Collingwood. I have no doubt that Cloke Snr's penchant for the folding stuff will end up with Travis heading to Falafel Country for a great big wad of cash and locked into a long term deal.

To be honest, he would be the perfect player for GWS to mould their team around. Imaging Cloke roaming across half forward in 3 years time with a mature monster like Patton stationed inside 50 rag-dolling opposition forwards. I've got no doubt they are targeting an established quality ruckman as well to top off their list.

[azabob]

I know nothing about it but I reckon he is gone too.

Reckon Sheeds is into Paddy Ryder also, just a hunch but probably wrong.

Nah Sheeds would be after Keepler Bradley!! :eek:

[jeemak]

Cloke Snr is one of the biggest cash-whores going around. The previous contract negotiations with the Clokes were messy, protracted and uncomfortable, with David going to the media to turn the heat right on Collingwood. I have no doubt that Cloke Snr's penchant for the folding stuff will end up with Travis heading to Falafel Country for a great big wad of cash and locked into a long term deal.

To be honest, he would be the perfect player for GWS to mould their team around. Imaging Cloke roaming across half forward in 3 years time with a mature monster like Patton stationed inside 50 rag-dolling opposition forwards. I've got no doubt they are targeting an established quality ruckman as well to top off their list.

Remember when Jason was at the tribunal during Grand Final week and David Cloke was there supporting his son in a Mike's Hard Lemonade t-shirt, while everyone else was wearing suits. Sums the guy up, really.

[Greystache]

Remember when Jason was at the tribunal during Grand Final week and David Cloke was there supporting his son in a Mike's Hard Lemonade t-shirt, while everyone else was wearing suits. Sums the guy up, really.

Which he got for free from Jimmy Rowes in Acot Vale, where he worked on Thursday nights picking up empty glasses in exchange for free drinks.