Free Agency

[SlimPickens]

Free Agency is here, the AFL released today who is eligible from each club and an explanation of how it all works.

FREE AGENTS REVEALED

GEELONG star Steve Johnson and Hawthorn premiership heroes Luke Hodge and Sam Mitchell head the list of 62 unrestricted free agents announced by the AFL on Friday.

Cats veterans Matthew Scarlett, Paul Chapman and Corey Enright are also on the unrestricted list, as are Brisbane Lions champions Jonathan Brown and Simon Black, West Coast skipper Darren Glass and St Kilda's Leigh Montagna.

They are all free to leave their clubs at the end of this season if they choose, without being traded or entering the NAB AFL Draft.

And some of the game's biggest names also feature among 19 restricted free agents, including Collingwood's Travis Cloke, Saint Brendon Goddard and Richmond's Brett Deledio.

Restricted free agents can field offers from other clubs, but their club has the opportunity to keep them by matching the rival offer.

Link:http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/130821/default.aspx

[SlimPickens]

Dogs players available under free agency

Lindsay Gilbee-Unrestricted
Ryan Hargrave-Unrestricted
Will Minson- Unrestricted

[Greystache]

Dogs players available under free agency

Lindsay Gilbee-Unrestricted
Ryan Hargrave-Unrestricted
Will Minson- Unrestricted

We're safe this year then.

[chef]

Free agency is going to turn us into a feeder club.

[SlimPickens]

Free agency is going to turn us into a feeder club.

To a degree, still believe the salary cap will offer the clubs some protection.

[Greystache]

To a degree, still believe the salary cap will offer the clubs some protection.

It may actually lead to further transparency. If a restricted agent goes to a club because they outbid the current club then it is publicly (within the AFL circle) known how much that player is getting. It may stop the situation where a player is offered officially less than they're getting at their current club with a secret kicker outside of footy.

[LostDoggy]

To a degree, still believe the salary cap will offer the clubs some protection.

You have high hopes. Watch the afl allow more Judd style 3rd party agreements.

[bornadog]

You have high hopes. Watch the afl allow more Judd style 3rd party agreements.

Only for certain clubs and players;)

[SlimPickens]

It may actually lead to further transparency. If a restricted agent goes to a club because they outbid the current club then it is publicly (within the AFL circle) known how much that player is getting. It may stop the situation where a player is offered officially less than they're getting at their current club with a secret kicker outside of footy.

Obviously its all up in the air. Not sure we can rely on the AFL to be effective in monitoring 3rd party payments.

A clubs culture is going to be paramount in maintaining players. Doubt you'll see Mitchell or Hodge moving on for example.

[Remi Moses]

Waiting for Sockeye to enter the debate.

[The Underdog]

Waiting for Sockeye to enter the debate.

What do you think his position will be?:rolleyes:

Obviously as a financial lesser, free agency probably reduces the ability for us to remain competetive. The AFL needs to be strong on the salary cap and enforcing penalties for those who disregard it. Which is probably unlikely.
Good for top level players though and those who feel they could get more game time elsewhere.

[mjp]

I still say restricted free agency is good. If the original club wants to keep the player - match the offer. If they match, then the player MUST stay. The full offer must be visible to both clubs for the system to work.

Not sure how a 3rd party agreement can be used as inducement in such circumstances????

[Sockeye Salmon]

Ah, but ...


Oh, bugger it. You all know how I feel.

[bornadog]

Ah, but ...


Oh, bugger it. You all know how I feel.

SS smarter than Demetriou read here:D (http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=7303&highlight=free+agency)

[chef]

I still say restricted free agency is good. If the original club wants to keep the player - match the offer. If they match, then the player MUST stay. The full offer must be visible to both clubs for the system to work.

Not sure how a 3rd party agreement can be used as inducement in such circumstances????

But it won't stay restricted for very long IMO.

[chef]

SS smarter than Demetriou read here:D (http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=7303&highlight=free+agency)

This:(.

[Greystache]

I still say restricted free agency is good. If the original club wants to keep the player - match the offer. If they match, then the player MUST stay. The full offer must be visible to both clubs for the system to work.

Not sure how a 3rd party agreement can be used as inducement in such circumstances????

I agree. Restricted free agency should be a good thing for smaller clubs.

[mjp]

But it won't stay restricted for very long IMO.

Why? They are following the NFL model and restricted free agency is a large part of it.

You have to allow a bit of capitalism...and as an aside, the player still has to sign what the NFL'ers call an 'Offer Sheet' with a rival club before anything can happen at all.

[chef]

Why? They are following the NFL model and restricted free agency is a large part of it.

You have to allow a bit of capitalism...and as an aside, the player still has to sign what the NFL'ers call an 'Offer Sheet' with a rival club before anything can happen at all.

It's just the way we are headed IMO.

[Hotdog60]

Watched a movie called Moneyball, the first part of that movie looked scary for us in that I could see it happening.

I think the only difference will be the salary cap so I hope it's tighten up and I have a bad feeling we will be one of the first clubs to take a hit, just like in the Gold Coast, GWS draft situation.

[LostDoggy]

Free agency might be great for players and maybe for some of the clubs. I believe it's going to open more loopholes for the shrewd and rich clubs to manipulate. Already there is a gap between the have and have not clubs, free agency will just increase this gap.

What the attraction for a free agent to go to or stay at a poorer, less successful club?

[Rocco Jones]

I strongly agree with mjp on this point.

Going on from that, I really believe we cry poor way too much. I think we are fortunate to be in the most socialist professional sporting league you'll find. Free agency has to come in modern sport, it's either agree to a restricted model or be forced into a free market.

I agree that it could also add transparency, as mjp mentioned 3rd part payments won't be included so if a club wants to go that way it has to do so via the traditional trading method, nothing lost there.

I am totally with mjp's point about a degree of capitalism being needed. What's the point of Collingwood etc doing so well as a club if they are completely even with Port? I love socialism, not communism!

We can blame the powers that be all we what but at the end of the day it falls down to our club and it being as strong as possible. We need to move away from relying on the kindness of strangers, otherwise our fate will always be out of our hands.

[bornadog]

We can blame the powers that be all we what but at the end of the day it falls down to our club and it being as strong as possible. We need to move away from relying on the kindness of strangers, otherwise our fate will always be out of our hands.

But its not a level playing field now and that's why we have to rely on the kindness of strangers.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I strongly agree with mjp on this point.

Going on from that, I really believe we cry poor way too much. I think we are fortunate to be in the most socialist professional sporting league you'll find. Free agency has to come in modern sport, it's either agree to a restricted model or be forced into a free market.

I agree that it could also add transparency, as mjp mentioned 3rd part payments won't be included so if a club wants to go that way it has to do so via the traditional trading method, nothing lost there.

I am totally with mjp's point about a degree of capitalism being needed. What's the point of Collingwood etc doing so well as a club if they are completely even with Port? I love socialism, not communism!

We can blame the powers that be all we what but at the end of the day it falls down to our club and it being as strong as possible. We need to move away from relying on the kindness of strangers, otherwise our fate will always be out of our hands.

Very admirable.

Also crap.


When we get the same stadium deals as Collingwood and the same preferential treatment with regards to the draw and FTA TV, I'd maybe agree with you.


That will happen 20 minutes after hell freezes over.

[LostDoggy]

But its not a level playing field now and that's why we have to rely on the kindness of strangers.

What he said.

[Bulldog4life]

Very admirable.

Also crap.


When we get the same stadium deals as Collingwood and the same preferential treatment with regards to the draw and FTA TV, I'd maybe agree with you.


That will happen 20 minutes after hell freezes over.

And Free Agency should never had reared it's ugly head until all the above happened.

[Rocco Jones]

We have the 'unlevel' playing field because we are too weak to stand on our own. It's easy to blame others, truth hurts etc. We require extra assistance and as part of this, we have to pay the AFL back in other ways such as a crap fixture, Docklands deal etc.

Our club will have 30kish members, the big clubs have double that and more. Our only way out of relying on the kindness of strangers is by a massive increase in our membership, otherwise we have to cop being a lacky club.

[Bulldog4life]

We have the 'unlevel' playing field because we are too weak to stand on our own. It's easy to blame others, truth hurts etc. We require extra assistance and as part of this, we have to pay the AFL back in other ways such as a crap fixture, Docklands deal etc.

Our club will have 30kish members, the big clubs have double that and more. Our only way out of relying on the kindness of strangers is by a massive increase in our membership, otherwise we have to cop being a lacky club.

Irrespective of how many members Clubs have the draw should be equal. No matter how you put it you will never convince me it shouldn't be.

[bornadog]

We have the 'unlevel' playing field because we are too weak to stand on our own. It's easy to blame others, truth hurts etc. We require extra assistance and as part of this, we have to pay the AFL back in other ways such as a crap fixture, Docklands deal etc.

Our club will have 30kish members, the big clubs have double that and more. Our only way out of relying on the kindness of strangers is by a massive increase in our membership, otherwise we have to cop being a lacky club.

Lack of free to air, no blockbusters like ANZAC Day, stadium deals, etc etc all contribute to lack of exposure and therefore lack of new fans. Just imagine on ANZAC day, live coverage 100,000 at the MCG watching Collingwood and Essendon play and 1 million fans watching on live TV. What kid around 6 to 10 years old is going to say I barrack for the Bulldogs? And the more blockbusters played the more exposure and more kids picking Collingwood, Essendon and Carlton as their first team.

The club tries really hard to get more members but every year we have about 5 or 6 thousand that wait till round 3 or 4 to see if its worth joining again. Our supporters are pathetic to say the least, let alone trying to get new ones.

[Sockeye Salmon]

My son loves basketball (I have exactly zero interest in the sport) and is a Sydney Kings fan despite never having been to Sydney in his life.

He has seen the Kings on TV approximately 5,000 times though.

[ledge]

We have the 'unlevel' playing field because we are too weak to stand on our own. It's easy to blame others, truth hurts etc. We require extra assistance and as part of this, we have to pay the AFL back in other ways such as a crap fixture, Docklands deal etc.

Our club will have 30kish members, the big clubs have double that and more. Our only way out of relying on the kindness of strangers is by a massive increase in our membership, otherwise we have to cop being a lacky club.

It is not an unlevel playing field because we are weak it is an unfair to most clubs, the AFL say they want clubs to be even so bring in a draft but then are hypocritical by only giving certain teams big days to play on..
If they want even competition every club should have a turn in these games but because they dont the AFL gives money to these clubs to make up for it. Problem is it doesnt bring more supporters to clubs though as it does with those select clubs who get it every year.

Expose us every year on ANZAC day for 10 years and promote us the way those two clubs are promoted and our membership would soar too.

[Rocco Jones]

Lack of free to air, no blockbusters like ANZAC Day, stadium deals, etc etc all contribute to lack of exposure and therefore lack of new fans. Just imagine on ANZAC day, live coverage 100,000 at the MCG watching Collingwood and Essendon play and 1 million fans watching on live TV. What kid around 6 to 10 years old is going to say I barrack for the Bulldogs? And the more blockbusters played the more exposure and more kids picking Collingwood, Essendon and Carlton as their first team.

The club tries really hard to get more members but every year we have about 5 or 6 thousand that wait till round 3 or 4 to see if its worth joining again. Our supporters are pathetic to say the least, let alone trying to get new ones.

I think we actually agree. I am not blaming the club or the AFL, it's the circumstances. A club with literally less than half the membership base of others, is always going to struggle and rely on the kindness of strangers.

We do have a lot of members who are on again, off again but I think that is due to us needing to convert so many of our fans into members. I think we do well to get them on board but it's obviously hard to keep them as they aren't close to being hardcore.

Life's going to be tough when you are poor, don't have fans or success.

[Rocco Jones]

My son loves basketball (I have exactly zero interest in the sport) and is a Sydney Kings fan despite never having been to Sydney in his life.

He has seen the Kings on TV approximately 5,000 times though.

I am not disagreeing with the TV discussion. I definitely agree that we pay for our 'assistance'. I think it's a bit like needing to loan money from the mob. Our original poor position got us into it now it's a cycle, we need the assistance but the conditions mean we have to rely on it.

The kids at the school I teach at all come from ethnic backgrounds, vast majority are Somali. They love footy but don't have parents who support the game/go to games so they rely on TV to watch the game. Heaps go for interstate clubs, I think the only thing that makes a difference to them is winning. Only once they get to the age where they can go alone do they change to Melbourne based clubs.

[bornadog]

The kids at the school I teach at all come from ethnic backgrounds, vast majority are Somali. They love footy but don't have parents who support the game/go to games so they rely on TV to watch the game. Heaps go for interstate clubs, I think the only thing that makes a difference to them is winning. Only once they get to the age where they can go alone do they change to Melbourne based clubs.

This is where we should be converting these kids to Bulldogs fans. One free junior membership, a hat a scarf and a flag - cost say $50 x 5000 kids = $250,000. Great investment for the future.

Invite them to a train with the players day and hand it out, autographs, photos and away we go.

[Rocco Jones]

This is where we should be converting these kids to Bulldogs fans. One free junior membership, a hat a scarf and a flag - cost say $50 x 5000 kids = $250,000. Great investment for the future.

Invite them to a train with the players day and hand it out, autographs, photos and away we go.

Totally agree with that. I guess while we have empty seats at games, free junior memberships to kids who wouldn't go otherwise costs us nothing. I think we can produce a scarf, flag and hat for less than $50 but that just adds to your point. A friend of mine offered the suggestion of free junior memberships to any child attending a primary school in the west.

I hate us having to rely on these 'hand outs' btw because as you guys so rightly point out, they don't come for free and really stiffle our growth.

[divvydan]

The only extension to the free agency coming in at the end of this season that I could see happening in the next 15 years or so is the removal of the 'at one club' requirement currently stipulated. I suspect we'll get to the point where players, after a certain number of years in the competition, will be free to change clubs on multiple occasions if they so wish.

This assumes that there's not something drastic overlooked in the initial rules that creates an unforeseen loophole that has to be closed earlier on.

[SlimPickens]

Watched a movie called Moneyball, the first part of that movie looked scary for us in that I could see it happening.

I think the only difference will be the salary cap so I hope it's tighten up and I have a bad feeling we will be one of the first clubs to take a hit, just like in the Gold Coast, GWS draft situation.

We don't necessarily have a plethora of players in the age/experience bracket to be available for free agency. Griff was our number one concern and he re-signed.

[LostDoggy]

Very admirable.

Also crap.


When we get the same stadium deals as Collingwood and the same preferential treatment with regards to the draw and FTA TV, I'd maybe agree with you.


That will happen 20 minutes after hell freezes over.

Our supporters don't turn up now. Why on earth would the AFL give us Anzac Day only for our fans not to turn up, when Collingwood or Essendon are guaranteed to fill the back seats? They get the big games because they have the fans. They both had big fan bases long before Anzac Day became a regular fixture.

[LostDoggy]

Our supporters don't turn up now. Why on earth would the AFL give us Anzac Day only for our fans not to turn up, when Collingwood or Essendon are guaranteed to fill the back seats? They get the big games because they have the fans. They both had big fan bases long before Anzac Day became a regular fixture.

? So we have no opportunity to gain more fans while the other clubs do. We have to stay quiet and not complain.
Who cares if we get 30K to an ANZAC day clash. That's 30K we dont get now and 80K 2 already rich clubs miss out on.

[bornadog]

? So we have no opportunity to gain more fans while the other clubs do. We have to stay quiet and not complain.
Who cares if we get 30K to an ANZAC day clash. That's 30K we dont get now and 80K 2 already rich clubs miss out on.

We could get at least 60k year one and maybe more the following, but the TV exposure would be huge.

[LostDoggy]

? So we have no opportunity to gain more fans while the other clubs do. We have to stay quiet and not complain.
Who cares if we get 30K to an ANZAC day clash. That's 30K we dont get now and 80K 2 already rich clubs miss out on.


We could get at least 60k year one and maybe more the following, but the TV exposure would be huge.

And neither add up to money gained for the AFL. Who cares if we get 30K to an ANZAC day clash? The AFL and the TV networks, that's who. It's not just about attendance at the gate either, it's about TV ratings as well.

I'm not saying it's right, just that it's a pipe dream to think we'll ever play Anzac Day. Not until Dogs supporters start turning up to games, anyway.

[bornadog]

And neither add up to money gained for the AFL. Who cares if we get 30K to an ANZAC day clash? The AFL and the TV networks, that's who. It's not just about attendance at the gate either, it's about TV ratings as well.

I'm not saying it's right, just that it's a pipe dream to think we'll ever play Anzac Day. Not until Dogs supporters start turning up to games, anyway.

The current system is making the big clubs get bigger and bigger and the minnos will never ever catch up.

[LostDoggy]

And neither add up to money gained for the AFL. Who cares if we get 30K to an ANZAC day clash? The AFL and the TV networks, that's who. It's not just about attendance at the gate either, it's about TV ratings as well.

I'm not saying it's right, just that it's a pipe dream to think we'll ever play Anzac Day. Not until Dogs supporters start turning up to games, anyway.

So it's more important to please the TV networks than it is to run a fair competition.

How do you propose we get more members to turn up when we get little to no exposure?

[chef]

So it's more important to please the TV networks than it is to run a fair competition.

How do you propose we get more members to turn up when we get little to no exposure?

It's all about the $$$$.

[chef]

I see the AFL is already talking about lowering it 7 seasons. Players as young as 23 could be restricted free agents within the next couple of seasons.

[ledge]

I see the AFL is already talking about lowering it 7 seasons. Players as young as 23 could be restricted free agents within the next couple of seasons.

23 ? that means they signed up at 16.

[chef]

23 ? that means they signed up at 16.

17. I'm just going by what AD is saying.

[ledge]

17. I'm just going by what AD is saying.

Obviously he can only count if numbers have this $ in front of them:D

[chef]

Obviously he can only count if numbers have this $ in front of them:D

Or maybe he was talking about Crouch and O'Meara who will still be only 23 after 7 years on a list.

[chef]

Backroom spending could free AFL stars to go

AFL players have been handed a big bargaining chip in their bid to secure better conditions, with free agency to come in a year early if football's arms race spirals out of control.



The AFLPA last night confirmed that under the new collective bargaining agreement, free agency would start at seven seasons if football department spending eclipsed a set formula.

Clubs including Collingwood and Fremantle continue to spend big money on assistants, development coaches and technology such as high-altitude rooms.

Yet the AFL cried poor in negotiations with the players, denying them a fixed percentage of revenue.

Under the agreed formula, if the proportion of players' wages to average football department spending across the 18 clubs slipped below 55 per cent, free agency provisions would change.

It would see restricted free agents after seven years, unrestricted free agents after nine years and only half the number of players protected as restricted free agents.

The AFLPA said if football department spending continued to soar it would be proof clubs could afford to pay more for their players.

The triggers for free agency now are eight years for restricted free agents and 10 years for unrestricted free agents.

Instead of free agency's rules changing, the league and AFLPA could sit down and increase the salary cap, which is clearly the player union's preferred outcome.

The AFL has committed to a review of the CBA after three years of the five-season term, and in effect this clause guarantees both sides commit to the review.

Richmond's Brett Deledio is still only 24 but a restricted free agent, meaning players eligible for free agency after seven years would be as young as 23.

Collingwood turned over an extraordinary $75,592,030 last year but, given the salary cap was $8.21 million, the only way to find a competitive advantage was to boost football department spending.

The proportion of the salary cap to football department spending is hovering about 60 per cent, and dropping about 1.5 to 2 per cent a year.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/backroom-spending-could-free-afl-stars-to-go/story-e6freck3-1226309102533

[Remi Moses]

How many players don't get where they want under the old system?
Unjustified in my opinion.

[Hotdog60]

It's just a case of the rich clubs trying to outdo everyone by spending big in the footy dept. Now the have not will lose their better players sooner because of them.

[The Underdog]

So it's more important to please the TV networks than it is to run a fair competition.



It is if you're the AFL administration. But to be fair without the TV money, there is no equalisation fund either

[LostDoggy]

It is if you're the AFL administration. But to be fair without the TV money, there is no equalisation fund either
Could easily be argued the other way around, if we got better Tv coverage/more blockbusters/stadium deals, we wouldn't need the equalization fund.
Not sure when Profit became the AFLs main objective?

[GVGjr]

Could easily be argued the other way around, if we got better Tv coverage/more blockbusters/stadium deals, we wouldn't need the equalization fund.
Not sure when Profit became the AFLs main objective?

If we had 40,000 plus members we would probably be given more blockbusters and wouldn't be as reliant on the equalization fund. Becoming a more successful club with a strong supporter base is the key to just about everything. Free agency will be a nightmare for a lot of clubs not just the poorer ones.

[LostDoggy]

If we had 40,000 plus members we would probably be given more blockbusters and wouldn't be as reliant on the equalization fund. Becoming a more successful club with a strong supporter base is the key to just about everything. Free agency will be a nightmare for a lot of clubs not just the poorer ones.

We are going around in circle here.
How do you get more members when any new fans are pushed to the other clubs through their exposure and the lack of ours?

[ledge]

Catch 22 blame the AFL from the start they should have given every team a part in ANZAC day etc, I believe that game would be sold out no matter what by now, but alas once you start having favourite clubs you build your own grave with equalization monies.

[chef]

Catch 22 blame the AFL from the start they should have given every team a part in ANZAC day etc, I believe that game would be sold out no matter what by now, but alas once you start having favourite clubs you build your own grave with equalization monies.

Don't agree. Essendon and Collingwood fans have made it what it is today(they fill the G even if it was Christmas day).

No way it would be packed if us, Saints, Demons or Kanga's were involved.

[ledge]

Don't agree. Essendon and Collingwood fans have made it what it is today(they fill the G even if it was Christmas day).

No way it would be packed if us, Saints, Demons or Kanga's were involved.

The media has a lot to answer for on that.

[chef]

We are going around in circle here.
How do you get more members when any new fans are pushed to the other clubs through their exposure and the lack of ours?

The more households have foxtel the better now as every game is shown live, so it will come down to performances on the field and marketing of their product.

[chef]

The media has a lot to answer for on that.

So if we played the Saints on Anzac day we would get 100,000 people there to watch us?

They have a hell of a lot of history which started well before they started playing on Anzac day.

[ledge]

So if we played the Saints on Anzac day we would get 100,000 people there to watch us?

They have a hell of a lot of history which started well before they started playing on Anzac day.

If any two vic clubs were pumped up for it in the media for 15 years , it wouldnt surprise me at all.

A lot of people who dont support either clubs go every year.

Personally I think it should be the grand final replay, at least its earnt and a reward, not just handed to you so you get stronger and more media than any other club every year.

Thus more supporters while other clubs might get some money to make up for it but it doesnt make up for the exposure.

[chef]

If any two vic clubs were pumped up for it in the media for 15 years , it wouldnt surprise me at all.

A lot of people who dont support either clubs go every year.

Personally I think it should be the grand final replay, at least its earnt and a reward, not just handed to you so you get stronger and more media than any other club every year.

Thus more supporters while other clubs might get some money to make up for it but it doesnt make up for the exposure.

My preference would be to have the best two performed Vic clubs from the previous year, but I don't think you would get as big of crowd or the passion.

[Ghost Dog]

My preference would be to have the best two performed Vic clubs from the previous year, but I don't think you would get as big of crowd or the passion.

Personally, I don't like the idea of Anzac day military rhetoric mixed with football. Anyway. Back to Free Agency, a good summary of how it works is here


http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/westernbulldogsnewsfeatures/newsarticle/tabid/4112/newsid/130820/default.aspx

Glad Ryan is signed up. From what I read you have to serve a club for some time before you get the right to be a free agent. 8-10 seasons is fair service IMO.

The GWS year with Ward was a bit of anomaly and hurt to watch him running around out there. we got burnt. Water under the Sydney harbor bridge now.

[Hotdog60]

I was having a moment contemplating about free agency this morning and a thought crossed my mind.

If a club got really good at recruiting the more mature player with skills that develop slower than your star teenager, say he was a year away from hitting he's straps at say 22 or 23 by the time he is up for free agency he would be on the decline with age.

This way were not grooming a club for the wealthy.:D

[SlimPickens]

? So we have no opportunity to gain more fans while the other clubs do. We have to stay quiet and not complain.
Who cares if we get 30K to an ANZAC day clash. That's 30K we dont get now and 80K 2 already rich clubs miss out on.


We could get at least 60k year one and maybe more the following, but the TV exposure would be huge.


What does this have to do with free agency?

[SlimPickens]

Interesting point Hotdog60, trends in recruiting suggest that clubs are more likely to get a "ready made" player then in previous years. This will have to play a part in recruitment strategy.

[bornadog]

What does this have to do with free agency?

Obviously you didn't read all the posts as it steered away from free agency to how the dogs get screwed.:D

[SlimPickens]

Obviously you didn't read all the posts as it steered away from free agency to how the dogs get screwed.:D

yep gathered that, maybe we should start a doggie rogering thread;)