Five Year Signings - good or risk?

[bornadog]

Are clubs taking a risk in signing players for 5 years or is this a smart move to tie your A graders to the club. Free agency is here, GWS is cashed up, Would you like to see Griffen sign a 5 year deal?

From the Age: Link (http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/bunch-of-fives-20120328-1vysi.html)

Controversial five-year deals

MARK MERCURI (signed in 2000)

Was one of Essendon's premier players in the dominant 2000 season as a silky midfielder and goalkicker. But he would lose form in subsequent years, attributed in part to his brother's death. The contract was cut short when he retired after the 2004 season.

ANTHONY KOUTOUFIDES (signed in 2000)

The Carlton utility was arguably the league's best player when he hurt his knee against Essendon in round 20, 2000. He returned to dominate the 2001 season but another knee injury against Richmond in the finals of that season, this time a torn anterior cruciate ligament, would mean he would never be the same player again. Played until 2007 and won another best and fairest.

AARON HAMILL (signed in 2004)

The rugged St Kilda forward played only 39 matches after hesigned his contract. He didn't play in 2007 and retired at the end of that season after enduring a torrid run with a degenerative knee.

DARREN GASPAR (signed 2001)

Enjoyed a stellar 2001 and received a lucrative offer from Fremantle. Tigers coach Danny Frawley pleaded with the key defender to stay. Deal turned sour in later years with Gaspar finishing his career in the VFL, taking a pay cut.


AND THE RECENT DEALS ...

Joel Selwood (Geelong)
Brett Deledio (Richmond)
Michael Hurley (Essendon)
Sam Reid (Sydney)

[Mantis]

No problems with the recent ones.... BTW Reid signed a 6 year deal.

From our club the only players I would sign to this type of deal would be Griffen, Jones & Libba.

[SlimPickens]

It's a tough one, although great for the PR spin that a club can achieve. To me it is fraught with danger, not only on relying on a player to perform for 5 years (Mercuri a classic example) but also the stress it can place on the future of clubs salary cap.

With free agency coming in, this will have ramifications on the club if a player has been tied up long term at generally a high price.
Richmond being a casing point- Deledio is on big money for five years, you would expect that the likes of Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt and to an extent someone like Vickery would be looking for more money in there next contract and a long term deal at that.
I can see Richmond losing a number of their next rung of players and possible future stars as they will be hamstrung by previous deals.

With Pendles effectively signing for 5 years with the Pies also, I just can't see how they will keep Cloke now.

List managers will have a nightmare down the track with such long term deals IMO. Shorter term deals allow for greater flexibility and i would be against anything over a 4 year deal.

[strebla]

5 year deals are a risk but if you don't take a risk you will not win a flag. Agree with mantis on the 3 we should sign though but think lesser players can also be signed on longer deals which could be a money saver I mean if you offered a Tutt or a Smith a 5 year deal I think it could be a safe bet so maybe a little thinking ahead might be in order .

[LostDoggy]

5 year deals are a risk but if you don't take a risk you will not win a flag. Agree with mantis on the 3 we should sign though but think lesser players can also be signed on longer deals which could be a money saver I mean if you offered a Tutt or a Smith a 5 year deal I think it could be a safe bet so maybe a little thinking ahead might be in order .

So you mean offer the longevity and security in exchange for a little less dollars?

[strebla]

So you mean offer the longevity and security in exchange for a little less dollars?

Absolutely these are the types of players required in each and every team yes you need to keep the stars but losing Harbrow hurt us so much more than losing Ward will in my opinion. So if we offer stability in exchange for some savings we have more in the pot when negotiations come around :o

[SlimPickens]

Absolutely these are the types of players required in each and every team yes you need to keep the stars but losing Harbrow hurt us so much more than losing Ward will in my opinion. So if we offer stability in exchange for some savings we have more in the pot when negotiations come around :o

Intersting point but don't you think a player would have an inflated idea of themselves if they are offered such a lengthy deal.

[Sedat]

DARREN GASPAR (signed 2001)

Enjoyed a stellar 2001 and received a lucrative offer from Fremantle. Tigers coach Danny Frawley pleaded with the key defender to stay. Deal turned sour in later years with Gaspar finishing his career in the VFL, taking a pay cut.
Gaspar was the king of playing out of his skin in the final year of his contract so that he could negotiate a fat contract next time around - did it 3 times (once at Sydney and twice at Richmond). He'd then do stuff-all for the next couple of years each time.

[bornadog]

5 year deals are a risk but if you don't take a risk you will not win a flag. Agree with mantis on the 3 we should sign though but think lesser players can also be signed on longer deals which could be a money saver I mean if you offered a Tutt or a Smith a 5 year deal I think it could be a safe bet so maybe a little thinking ahead might be in order .

I wouldn't be offering Smith or Tutt long term contracts as they are yet to prove themselves. We have seen a glimpse of Tutt but he has to perform consistently. I tend to agree with Mantis on the three, ie Griffen, Jones and Libba, but don't have too many other young guys at this stage with the proof in the pudding. Hopefully Cordy, Roughead show something in the next few years as well as Smith, Tutt, Wood etc.

[The Coon Dog]

I think it's a good idea in the current climate. With the changing landscape clubs have looked at how they can ward off such approaches (yes, I did that deliberately) from GWS & Free Agency. I'd be rapt if I supported one of those 4 clubs who've signed those players to 5 year deals.The uncertainty all last year had an impact, particularly at Melbourne.

[SlimPickens]

I think it's a good idea in the current climate. With the changing landscape clubs have looked at how they can ward off such approaches (yes, I did that deliberately) from GWS & Free Agency. I'd be rapt if I supported one of those 4 clubs who've signed those players to 5 year deals.The uncertainty all last year had an impact, particularly at Melbourne.

Considering young players aren't going to be effected by free agency would you still consider doing it now with anyone on our list? At the moment i would only consider Griffen.

Basically our senior players (boyd, cross, gia etc) are to old to worry about a long term deal and our younger players (Libba, Wallis etc) have 5 more years until they are available for free agency, at a pinch you may sign Libba to a long term deal in 3 years time. The only middle aged (in terms of career) you'd have to worry about is Higgins and i would spew if they club gave him anything close to a 5 year deal.

As our list is void of that 23-27 age bracket i can't see how a long term offer for any of our other players are required

[bornadog]

I guess the biggest risk to signing the 5 year deal is long term injuries. A good example is Cooney and his injury and will he ever be the same again. Personally I would still take the risk on any A graders.

[strebla]

I wouldn't be offering Smith or Tutt long term contracts as they are yet to prove themselves. We have seen a glimpse of Tutt but he has to perform consistently. I tend to agree with Mantis on the three, ie Griffen, Jones and Libba, but don't have too many other young guys at this stage with the proof in the pudding. Hopefully Cordy, Roughead show something in the next few years as well as Smith, Tutt, Wood etc.

I was using Tutt andSmith as examples if you like go back 5 years with Shaggy or even Picken these are the types I am taking about. I agree with what you are saying but why limit it to the stars be aggressive and shore up your core and future core players keep your list together just as the Cats ,hawks and Pies have that where flags come from forward thinking and belief in your system. While Tutt has only shown a little if he improves further this year along with all of our 20 to 23 year olds tie the up early giving us and them security. It is a gamble but losing players to marauders because you played safe will never ever see us win that elusive premiership we all desire these are just my thoughts on the issue and whilst I doubt many will agree I do not want to keep us leaking like a sieve every time someone waves a check book or a come home option in our young players face any more.

[strebla]

Considering young players aren't going to be effected by free agency would you still consider doing it now with anyone on our list? At the moment i would only consider Griffen.

Basically our senior players (boyd, cross, gia etc) are to old to worry about a long term deal and our younger players (Libba, Wallis etc) have 5 more years until they are available for free agency, at a pinch you may sign Libba to a long term deal in 3 years time. The only middle aged (in terms of career) you'd have to worry about is Higgins and i would spew if they club gave him anything close to a 5 year deal.

As our list is void of that 23-27 age bracket i can't see how a long term offer for any of our other players are required

So wait until they are at the peak in money terms at around 23 then pay top dollar for a 5 year contract . This makes no sense to me take a risk and build a long term list we have played safe for far too long and need to be aggressive .

[SlimPickens]

So wait until they are at the peak in money terms at around 23 then pay top dollar for a 5 year contract . This makes no sense to me take a risk and build a long term list we have played safe for far too long and need to be aggressive .

What player do you mean? What i'm saying is, if you use free agency as a reason to sign a young player at the moment like Libba it is pointless as he isn't available as a free agent for another 5 years.

Are you suggesting we sign one of our young guns for an even longer contract?

[strebla]

What player do you mean? What i'm saying is, if you use free agency as a reason to sign a young player at the moment like Libba it is pointless as he isn't available as a free agent for another 5 years.

Are you suggesting we sign one of our young guns for an even longer contract?

A player like Libba depending on the price absolutely why not ?

[SlimPickens]

A player like Libba depending on the price absolutely why not ?

He is a second year player.

I love Libba, but even so I would not offer him 5 years now. I'd be looking at a longer term deal for his next contract so we have him tied upin his peak years (23-28yo), and when free agency comes into play for him.

[strebla]

He is a second year player.

I love Libba, but even so I would not offer him 5 years now. I'd be looking at a longer term deal for his next contract so we have him tied upin his peak years (23-28yo), and when free agency comes into play for him.

If he continues to improve at the rate he has been and we wait untill he is 23 he will cost an absolute bucket load think ahead and tie him up IMHO . I can see your logic Slim but I do not want to lose any more players if need be offer him 7 years now if need be I don't care !

[LostDoggy]

The risk/reward equation is so bad for 5 year deals that very, very few players deserve them. In the current comp, the only people I can think of that it would have been justified for are guys like Selwood, Jon Brown, the Pav, Goodes, Riewoldt and the like. The only players that would CURRENTLY deserve a 5 year deal are probably Buddy and Swan.

Even so, the risks are massive -- not just injury, but also questionable character. Even players like Brown and Goodes have had bad injuries, and a club can't even renegotiate terms down once stuck with a player. Hurley and Deledio are NOT deserving of 5 year deals, and I really do believe the last couple of years of their contracts will just be a drag on their clubs' list management.

Having said that, in the era of free agency maybe you would want to tie your top 6-12 players to longer-term contracts in order to have better terms if they requested a trade, but if one were offering 5 or 6 year deals you would want the last 2 years of the contract to have appearance and performance stipulations on them.

Can/do clubs get injury insurance on contracts here in Australia? In the US, sports clubs (mainly NBA and NFL) get massive insurance deals for their long-term contracts so they (the club) can get a pay-out in case of career ending injuries and the like. (Some players can't be insured because of their bad injury records).

[DragzLS1]

If we give somebody like Libba a 5 yar contract now rather then wait for another 2 year and offer him a contract when he is starting to peak (if he doesnt already do so this year).
Example: Libba is on lets say a contract of $400k per year for the next 2 years then we offer him a 5 year contract thats worth $600k per year.. Or offer Libba $400 or $450k for the next 5 year and when the time comes we will only need to pay him top dollar for a shorter period of time.. Ultimately saving around $600k over 5 years.. That could be the difference with keeping Dahlhaus on the list in 2 years time or not..

It has been mentioned lets take a risk on Libba, Luke, Tutt, Smith, Jones and Roughead. I like Cambell so might not offer Cordy anything as of yet due to all his injuries..

Talia is a bulldogs man through and through so I wouldnt stress too much about him but Wood my be another 1 to consider.

That the Core of our team and in 3 years time when they are peaking and we might be challenging they will be half way through their contracts and would wouldve saved alot of money in the process.

The down side is if these players done perform or have serious injuries like Cooney where this plan back fires..

Some time you have to risk alot but its worth it imo. Its already been 60 odd years so why play it safe now?

Lock em in..

[Mofra]

They missed Ablett's contract at Geelong - was 5 years at a pretty low rate for a footballer wasn't it? Signed when he was a flanker/pocket type early in his career.

[SlimPickens]

If we give somebody like Libba a 5 yar contract now rather then wait for another 2 year and offer him a contract when he is starting to peak (if he doesnt already do so this year).
Example: Libba is on lets say a contract of $400k per year for the next 2 years then we offer him a 5 year contract thats worth $600k per year.. Or offer Libba $400 or $450k for the next 5 year and when the time comes we will only need to pay him top dollar for a shorter period of time.. Ultimately saving around $600k over 5 years.. That could be the difference with keeping Dahlhaus on the list in 2 years time or not..

It has been mentioned lets take a risk on Libba, Luke, Tutt, Smith, Jones and Roughead. I like Cambell so might not offer Cordy anything as of yet due to all his injuries..

Talia is a bulldogs man through and through so I wouldnt stress too much about him but Wood my be another 1 to consider.

That the Core of our team and in 3 years time when they are peaking and we might be challenging they will be half way through their contracts and would wouldve saved alot of money in the process.

The down side is if these players done perform or have serious injuries like Cooney where this plan back fires..

Some time you have to risk alot but its worth it imo. Its already been 60 odd years so why play it safe now?

Lock em in..

I don't even know where to start with this, you're system rewards potential to the extreme. I can't see how a club could be viable like this.

[Remi Moses]

To risky for mine,just can't see the logic in signing Deledio for five years.
The guy's 24 or 25 and plays a scroungy half back role.As the players above have shown it can turn sour quickly

[Ghost Dog]

To risky for mine,just can't see the logic in signing Deledio for five years.
The guy's 24 or 25 and plays a scroungy half back role.As the players above have shown it can turn sour quickly

Depends on the fine print, doesn't it? If you throw in KPI's, behavior clauses, injury stuff, maybe it's ok?

[DragzLS1]

I don't even know where to start with this, you're system rewards potential to the extreme. I can't see how a club could be viable like this.

Your telling me you dont already rate Libba and Dahlaus highly?

I can see what you mean about the rest of them potentia wise and thats fair enough but I would without hesitation give Libba and Dalh a 5 year contract tomorrow if possible.

[SlimPickens]

You're telling me you dont already rate Libba and Dahlaus highly?

I can see what you mean about the rest of them potentia wise and thats fair enough but I would without hesitation give Libba and Dalh a 5 year contract tomorrow if possible.

I wouldn't give anyone on our list a 5 year contract. Doesn't mean i don't rate them, it's just not how i would manage our list.

[strebla]

I like Lanterns idea of the last 2 years being performance based with injury clauses built in. Can see where you are comming from Slim but have to disagree with you yes we can end up with egg on our face but the reward is huge If it works in our favour .

[SlimPickens]

I like Lanterns idea of the last 2 years being performance based with injury clauses built in. Can see where you are comming from Slim but have to disagree with you yes we can end up with egg on our face but the reward is huge If it works in our favour .

i can agree with that :D

[ledge]

How about you offer Libba a 5 year deal then when in his second last year of that contract you add another 3 to it.
The trick is to tie them up one or 2 years before the previous contract finishes, that way you get in before other teams start sniffing around making outrageous offers.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Alistair Lynch signed a 10 year deal with Brisbane.

[bornadog]

Alistair Lynch signed a 10 year deal with Brisbane.

and he had Chronic fatigue syndrome.

[Desipura]

Alistair Lynch signed a 10 year deal with Brisbane.
that was a brilliant deal for Brisbane!

[Murphy'sLore]

Sounds like these long term deals are a kiss of death! Any examples of it actually being a good idea?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Sounds like these long term deals are a kiss of death! Any examples of it actually being a good idea?

Lynch was practically being paid like a draftee by the end of that deal.

It had seemed like a lot of money a decade before!

[LostDoggy]

The price of the roids Lynch took went up over 10 years more in comparision than his contract would of so it worked out better for him.

[Remi Moses]

Tiger fans turning on Deledio already:p
I'd have Cotchin on a fiver before him!

[strebla]

Tiger fans turning on Deledio already:p
I'd have Cotchin on a fiver before him!

I would have Martin before both of them the kids a star!!!!

[LostDoggy]

I would have Martin before both of them the kids a star!!!!

This!