Saints and Sinners - Round 1 Vs West Coast

[westdog54]

This will be the first edition of the weekly "Saints and Sinners" thread. Once the game against West Coast is concluded post your nominations for no more than three "Saints", who did something positive that caught your eye, and three "sinners", who are in your scopes for criticism.

Please limit it to no more than three of each, but feel free to make honourable/dishonourable mentions.

[SlimPickens]

Saints-
- Dahlhaus enough said.
-Clay Smith
- Liam Picken-just ask Daniel Kerr!

Sinners
-Boydy for *!*!*!*! sake bring the jam tins to training and kick over them...pathetic.

-Big Will- So very disappointed with his effort today had his chance and just didn't take it.

- Jones- could have given us a real sniff in the third and just couldn't get the job done.

[Ghost Dog]

Saints -
- as above
Liam Picken for shutting Kerr out of the game
Libba - battled manfully, ended the game in classic Liberatore style; claret pouring out his honker.

Sinners
Shaggy, couldn't kick to save himself today
Grant, What's going on in his mind? Looks sedated.
Brian - Had shovels of attitude for Josh Hill and Nicnat but was beaten, and threw in a few stupid free kicks just to add insult to injury.

[Rance Fan]

Saints -
Dahl - created heaps of opportunities
Smith - 4 Goals in game one..Great!
Libba/Picken - never quit, always in and under

Sinners -
Addison - struggled to punch the positions marking attempt at times, and Hill kicked 3 on him!
Jones - needs to kick goals and make most of his chances
WB as a team - kicking skills and decision making needs to improve

[Remi Moses]

Saints - Hopefully Port murder them
Dahlhaus and Smith outstanding

Sinners- Markovic ( got murdered one on one)
Minson - Sorry he ain't going to get there
Boyd- disappointing
Tackling- Ahhh chaps around the neck is a free kick
Grant - Comes on and runs around like he's playing a park match:mad:


Going to be a long year unfortunately:(

[Ghost Dog]

Saints - Hopefully Port murder them
Dahlhaus and Smith outstanding

Sinners- Markovic ( got murdered one on one)
Minson - Sorry he ain't going to get there
Boyd- disappointing
Tackling- Ahhh chaps around the neck is a free kick
Grant - Comes on and runs around like he's playing a park match:mad:


Going to be a long year unfortunately:(

Marko did better than expected I reckon against a bigger, more mature player. More than once he managed to defend the mark.
Boyd, as usual, got so many possessions and such a good leader, he's hard to criticize but his bloopers reel is painful to watch.
Grant needs a shot of adreniline before he walks out on the field. So frustrating

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

Saints - Dahlhaus, Smith (Callan Who?), Picken, T-Bone

Sinners, Grant (WTF?), Jones (you have two hands), Boyd (disposal)

[Happy Days]

Marko did better than expected I reckon against a bigger, more mature player. More than once he managed to defend the mark.


???

He had 7 goals kicked on him, 7.

[LostDoggy]

???

He had 7 goals kicked on him, 7.

7 is less than 8 I suppose.
Markovic was awful, not sure why McCartney left him on him so long.

[Ghost Dog]

???

He had 7 goals kicked on him, 7.

Better than expected - last year he kicked 10. I didn't say he had a great day.

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

???

He had 7 goals kicked on him, 7.

It was ten last year. Is it too soon for The Positive Thread?

[LostDoggy]

I don't know why Grant was the sub. Either you start him or you don't play him at all. He was on a hiding to nothing given the game was cooked when he came on.

[SonofScray]

Saints:

Smith, an excellent debut.
Picken, towelled up Kerr, should goto the most dangerous mid.
Libba, appeared to be very efficient.

Sinners:

Wood, just fluffed everything he went near.
Higgins, need more from him. Either produces as a forward or needs to go.
Grant, not mentally up to it.

[Remi Moses]

Marko did better than expected I reckon against a bigger, more mature player. More than once he managed to defend the mark.
Boyd, as usual, got so many possessions and such a good leader, he's hard to criticize but his bloopers reel is painful to watch.
Grant needs a shot of adreniline before he walks out on the field. So frustrating

Got his pantsed pulled down. Not good enough

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Saints - Smith, Libba, Dahlaus, Murphy & Picken

Sinners - Jones that 3rd quarter really killed us, Higgins, that 3rd quarter playing as a loose man in the back line he couldn't impact the game with no opponent. Gia and Boyd for poor kicking.

[Remi Moses]

Better than expected - last year he kicked 10. I didn't say he had a great day.

Sorry, that's not better than expected when your opponent kicks 7 on you!
What's a poor game 14?

[LostDoggy]

Jones had a poor game but it's not like he was only one or the worst. We are expecting to much from him, continually he was out numbered and the delivery wasn't great either.

[LostDoggy]

Not sure about these threads, a lot of negativity gets generated against players.

I thought Minno was ok against monsters and covered a lot of ground. Boyd did a lot of good but all we hear about is his mistakes.

Libba, Smith and Dahlhaus were awesome but I don't wish to call them Saints.
Attack on the ball was great for much of the game.

[always right]

Saints:
Dahlhaus put many more senior teammates to shame with his effort. What a little gun.
Smith was just so impressive.
Was encouraged by Roughy's game. Didn't star but looked like he belonged out there.

Sinners:
Wood need to play like Tarzan...not just look like him. He was a liability out there today.
Boyd tried as usual but was ineffective
Macca.....going in with only two key defenders against that mob was a strange decision.

[Ghost Dog]

Sorry, that's not better than expected when your opponent kicks 7 on you!
What's a poor game 14?

Well who else would you have played in that position? I thought Marko did the best he could on the day. He was beaten by a better player, but battled manfully. He got plenty of possessions and rarely butchered the ball.

[Ghost Dog]

Saints:
Dahlhaus put many more senior teammates to shame with his effort. What a little gun.
Smith was just so impressive.
Was encouraged by Roughy's game. Didn't star but looked like he belonged out there.

Sinners:
Wood need to play like Tarzan...not just look like him. He was a liability out there today.
Boyd tried as usual but was ineffective
Macca.....going in with only two key defenders against that mob was a strange decision.

I reckon that's unfair. Boyd got plenty of it. He had a few clangers, but did well generally I thought.

Wood need to play like Tarzan...not just look like him. <<< -- made me laugh out loud.

[SonofScray]

I reckon that's unfair. Boyd got plenty of it. He had a few clangers, but did well generally I thought.



He gets plenty of it, no doubt. There has to be a question mark over his ability to make a high percentage of them count though. I wonder if Boyd will see some time in the forward line as was suggested in the preseason? I think he could add some value there, even if it meant he got less possessions in total.

[bornadog]

He gets plenty of it, no doubt. There has to be a question mark over his ability to make a high percentage of them count though. I wonder if Boyd will see some time in the forward line as was suggested in the preseason? I think he could add some value there, even if it meant he got less possessions in total.

He played forward in the last quarter today.

[ReLoad]

Saints:
Dahl, Smith and I really was happy with Minson. He is never going to out leap Nic Nat (nobody can for that matter) but he presented and presented and presented again, at CHF half the time. He would have covered a lot of ground, for his size, I thought he was great.

Sinners:
Jones, maybe a bad day at the office, but kick those couple the game could have gone very differently.
Wallis, Totally ineffective, didn't present, cant lay a tackle, did nothing.
Addison, Played the whole game on Josh Hill who not only kicked 3, but zoned off him the entire match, but didn't provide any rebound at all, no good.
Lastly, Melbourne FC for picking Watts over Nic Nat.

[Rance Fan]

Ok so Markovic struggled, but likely he would of killed whoever we put on him.
Bring back Mulligan! :-)
Seriously i think we should of had Cordy in to play in the back half. Maybe next week!
Also I think Campbell we also need in up forward.
Hmm it may be a long year!

[Mantis]

Wood need to play like Tarzan...not just look like him. <<< -- made me laugh out loud.

Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane.

[Greystache]

Winners

Young kids-

Smith
Dahlhaus
Libba

All sensational. Generally the best users of the ball too.

Sinners

Boyd- 38 disposals and zero positive impact. I wonder at times if he even cares if his disposals provide advantage to his team mate up the field.

Markovic- Was on a hiding to nothing, but he was awful nonetheless.

Skills- They are just abysmal. Enough said.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Winners
Boyd- 38 disposals and zero positive impact. I wonder at times if he even cares if his disposals provide advantage to his team mate up the field.

I cant believe Boyd had 38 disposals, if you get that many in a game you should have had a stand out game, not get over shadowed by a first gamer.

[comrade]

Winners

Dahlhaus is a gun. Lock him up now.
Smith was good on debut. Do we need all of Boyd, Cross and Smith in the same team?

Sinners

Our decision making at times was beyond belief. Kicking to disadvantage, playing on into trouble, ridiculous defensive efforts.

Macca has his hands full developing a game plan that accounts for so many players with little nous.

[soupman]

The positives:

Smith: For obvious reasons.
Dahlhaus: Most exciting player on our list.
Minson: Worked hard against a superior ruck combo and I thought his around the ground work was decent.

The negatives:

Easton Wood: Had a putrid day.
Liam Jones: Struggled to do things right. His disposal was very average and whilst I really do like him, I expect him to be much better when he gets the ball because he only gets it a couple of times a quarter.
Daniel Giansiracusa: Went missing after the first quarter, which was solid. Needed him to get more involved as as our best half forward link man we need him feeding guys like Jones.

Our Supporters: Seriously, WTF is going on?

Booing the subbing off of Clay Smith (he is 18, in his first match, and has clearly worked his arse off and is buggered), getting stuck into the usual scapegoats Dylan Addison, Will Minson etc, and whilst Higgins does frustrate me too, can we treat him a bit more fairly? There were times today where he did no worse than any other player would have, and still copped the usual abuse about being soft, and not trying and stuff.

Lastly, and this is directed to the two guys sitting near us who decided to commentate the entire match, complete with blow by blow replays of what was going through the umpires mind, and give us their ideas on how we should be playing, despite not seeming to grasp the most basic concept of a switch. These two guys were also major culprits from the aforementioned "supporters" section.

[Mofra]

Well who else would you have played in that position? I thought Marko did the best he could on the day. He was beaten by a better player, but battled manfully. He got plenty of possessions and rarely butchered the ball.
I was wondering why the switch to Lake on Kennedy wasn't made earlier. He kicked 5 in the first half, and not one of those goals he was without an opponent.


Saints:
Minson was better than many give him credit for - his ability to put the fall of the ball to our advantage in the F50 was very good
As mentioned by everyone else, Smith, Dalhaus & Libba - guns

Sinners:
Addison losing the ball in flight, not good enough
Wood's handballing; it's a simple skill Easton, especially when you're not under a pack
Marko, battles hard but he is a very limited footballer
Wallis is going to take time, and started woefully - another pre-season or two. Priddis didn't really make it until his early 20s did he? Similar type to Wallis, can find plenty of the ball as an inside mid, good engine and not a long kick

[anfo27]

Winners

Dahlhaus is a gun. Lock him up now.
Smith was good on debut. Do we need all of Boyd, Cross and Smith in the same team?

Sinners

Our decision making at times was beyond belief. Kicking to disadvantage, playing on into trouble, ridiculous defensive efforts.

Macca has his hands full developing a game plan that accounts for so many players with little nous.

Spot on with your sinners comrade. Just can't understand whats some of those guys are thinking at times.
Its like night and day when you compare those guys to Dahlhaus who knows exactly what to do with it all the time.

[Dog54]

Saints

Smith first game 4 goals and tough as nails will play 200 games

Picken put Kerr to shame and subbed him out of the game

Dalhaus gave us spark and took the game on


Sinners

Coach for not playing Cordy could have been handy back or Forward

Dickson no inside 50 pressure got a chance and missed it. Make the bloke earn a game not just hand him one. The guy had zero tackles!

Liam Jones has had a whole summer to improve his kicking. Take chances we don't get flogged. Play Panos at least he is a dead eye dick.

Interesting stat bulldogs had 1 player between 50-100 games the Eagles had 9. This is a concern. You need a strong experienced core and we lack in this area.

[The Underdog]

Saints



Interesting stat bulldogs had 1 player between 1-50 games the Eagles had 9. This is a concern. You need a strong experienced core and we lack in this area.

Huh? We had 12 players with under 50 games if my count is correct.

[LostDoggy]

I reckon that's unfair. Boyd got plenty of it. He had a few clangers, but did well generally I thought.

Wood need to play like Tarzan...not just look like him. <<< -- made me laugh out loud.

The post match summary on ABC Radio was scathing of Boyd's ineffective/turnover disposal. Stan Alves even suggested he would be a better player if he just got 20 possessions and made them count.

Pretty sure the same has been suggested on other post match reviews too. Would love to know what Mick Malthouse had to say on 3AW.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Booing the subbing off of Clay Smith (he is 18, in his first match, and has clearly worked his arse off and is buggered), getting stuck into the usual scapegoats Dylan Addison, Will Minson etc, and whilst Higgins does frustrate me too, can we treat him a bit more fairly? There were times today where he did no worse than any other player would have, and still copped the usual abuse about being soft, and not trying and stuff.

I suspect most of the supporters felt he was a large part of the reason we were still in the game, but as you said -- he was buggered.

I saw him clutch at his hamstring and he looked pretty tight and sore, so it was a good decision to sub him off.

-------------------------------------

Saints:

Dahl: Alongside Griffen for our most effective players. He pretty much does everything right. A real joy to watch.

Libba: Solid game -- more of the same from him.

Smith: Extremely impressive debut. Worked his backside off, pressured well and kicked 4 goals. He's obviously going to be a good player -- personally, i think he makes Cross redundant now.

Sinners:

Markovic: I know that Kennedy is a great player, but Marko was pretty poor in every aspect.

Skills.

Cross: Too slow. He takes too long to dispose of the ball too. Not clean enough with his hands either.

Boyd: Defensive efforts were poor. He was unaccountable, missed tacklesand his disposal was terrible.

Wood: Absolutely terrible today.

Jones: He missed some straight forward shots. Disappointing.

Skills.

Decision making.

Skills.

[Dog54]

Huh? We had 12 players with under 50 games if my count is correct.

Correction I meant between 50 and 100 games we had more than 10 players less than 50 games

[AndrewP6]

Saints: Smith: hard at it, kept on going and showed nous in front of goal. Terrific first game!
Dahlhaus, great energy, exciting to watch him weave through the lines.

Honorable mention to Willbur, I thought he wasnt bad around the ground.

Sinners McCartney - did he enjoy watching Marko getting pantsed? Should've done something....anything.
Boyd ... Get fewer possessions and do something effective with them, and we'd be better off.
Grant... Whilst the sub role isn't his best role, he just gives us nothing. Passage of play late, when he ran down the wing and promptly kicked it to no one, sums him up, IMO.

Dishonorable mention: Jones. Two misses from about 15m out? Please....

[Ghost Dog]

The post match summary on ABC Radio was scathing of Boyd's ineffective/turnover disposal. Stan Alves even suggested he would be a better player if he just got 20 possessions and made them count.

Pretty sure the same has been suggested on other post match reviews too. Would love to know what Mick Malthouse had to say on 3AW.

I agree, I agree. It' a fair assessment of his ineffective / turnover rate. but other aspects of his game are good. He had a mixed day.
Anyway, beyond individualization, How did we play as a team?

Did we protect the ball carrier?
Did we kick straight?
Did we win the hard ball?
did we tackle hard?

As we failed on these, we lost. simple. And nobody was perfect today in any of these.

[bornadog]

Correction I meant between 50 and 100 games we had more than 10 players less than 50 games

We had 11 less than 50, WC 5

3 , 50 - 99 to 9

1, 100 - 149 to 2

and over 150 7 to 6

[G-Mo77]

Saints:
Dahlhaus was electric. He was like King Midas everything he touched turned to gold.

Libba. Has complete disregard for his own body and just continues to win the ball. I am in love with the kid!

Smith. 4 Goals on debut. WOWEE!!!!

Picken's hit on that little worm Kerr which left him laying. :D

Sinners
Sloppy tackling. Continuous high tackles which gave them a free kick. I think I saw Picken give away 3 maybe 4 of the same.

Jones' misses on goal. Destroyed the momentum we had and it started getting ugly after that.

Grant as sub. We would have been much better of with DJ or Vez there.

[Ghost Dog]

Ok so Markovic struggled, but likely he would of killed whoever we put on him.
Bring back Mulligan! :-)
Seriously i think we should of had Cordy in to play in the back half. Maybe next week!
Also I think Campbell we also need in up forward.
Hmm it may be a long year!



As for a self-assessment, McCartney said, "I'll go home tonight (and) there's probably one or two things on reflection we may have been able to do a bit earlier," he said.

One was moving Lukas Markovic off Kennedy. But McCartney backed his defender.

"I like the way Lukas Markovic goes about his football.

"Yeah, he got beaten a couple of times, and there were a few times (where) it wouldn’t have mattered who we had on (Kennedy). But there's also some times where his efforts were pretty good.

"I can remember some young defenders a long time ago that I worked closely with that got beaten early in their careers and became better players off the back of it, and I think he'll be one of those."

[The Underdog]

Saints (and I'm no fan of using that in a positive way either):
Smith: um, just wow. He was as advertised, pushed himself to the limit to get to repeat contests. Should be a rising star nom on the basis of 2 and a half quarters.

Libba: keeps on improving. Got plenty of it and used it pretty well. Also strong in the contest defensively.

Dahlhaus: I wasn't sure how he'd cope with the 2nd year blues but he worked his arse off continually, even when he had nothing left. His kicking seems to have a bit more depth to it too.

Apologies to Minson and Picken for solid jobs.

Sinners:
Boyd: Harsh probably, but why does 38 possessions start to seem like an indictment rather than an achievement.

Team; Too much left to individuals, particularly inexperienced ones. When the team got tired the structure fell away and it looked a hell of a lot like last year.

Hargrave: His field kicking was shitful

[Mantis]

If I had written the script before today's game it would have went something like:

Libba & Dahlhaus - continue to impress
Jones - kicking lets him down
Cross & Boyd - big numbers, no value
Higgins - tease
Addison - not up to it
Markovic - struggles against quality
Cooney - shadow of former self.

It's just all too predictable.

[LostDoggy]

Macca has his hands full developing a game plan that accounts for so many players with little nous.

That absolutely sums it up for me. It seems like the punters get very defensive when guys who rack up big stats get bagged, but it's simply not just about effort.

In international soccer, England has always put up a good effort but never get anywhere against teams with more nous and tactical intelligence. Boydy and Crossy are our Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard -- two physical, dogged, absolute triers who do great things on the stat-sheet but are generally ineffective at the highest level where much smarter and cunning guys like Xavi and Mesut Ozil can think their way around you.

I am struck by this comparison when I watch the work of guys like Sam Mitchell or Pendlebury vs. our two champions. NO QUESTION Boydy and Crossy give their all every time, but when you watch just the smarts of a Mitchell or Sewell or Pendles as they think their way through traffic, where it's not just about getting the ball at any cost, but also about the way they position themselves just before picking up the ball, the way they turn their hands at the last minute to ensure a perfect angle for their disposal, how far they let the ball run before intercepting it, how they've summed up a situation before they make a decision.

I hate to say this, but Boydy and Crossy can learn a lot about these intangibles from Libba Jr. -- which makes me think that they can learn a lot from Libba Snr (as I imagine he would have been the one to drill this football intelligence into Jr.). What price Libba Snr for midfield coach?

[Desipura]

If I had written the script before today's game it would have went something like:

Libba & Dahlhaus - continue to impress
Jones - kicking lets him down
Cross & Boyd - big numbers, no value
Higgins - tease
Addison - not up to it
Markovic - struggles against quality
Cooney - shadow of former self.

It's just all too predictable.
That pretty much sums it up. I would add Smith has alot of mongrel about him which we will like. Gave Shuey a nice hip and shoulder right in front of me after he disposed of it.
The crowd loved the sound of the bump as I did to!

[Ghost Dog]

That absolutely sums it up for me. It seems like the punters get very defensive when guys who rack up big stats get bagged, but it's simply not just about effort.

In international soccer, England has always put up a good effort but never get anywhere against teams with more nous and tactical intelligence. Boydy and Crossy are our Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard -- two physical, dogged, absolute triers who do great things on the stat-sheet but are generally ineffective at the highest level where much smarter and cunning guys like Xavi and Mesut Ozil can think their way around you.

I am struck by this comparison when I watch the work of guys like Sam Mitchell or Pendlebury vs. our two champions. NO QUESTION Boydy and Crossy give their all every time, but when you watch just the smarts of a Mitchell or Sewell or Pendles as they think their way through traffic, where it's not just about getting the ball at any cost, but also about the way they position themselves just before picking up the ball, the way they turn their hands at the last minute to ensure a perfect angle for their disposal, how far they let the ball run before intercepting it, how they've summed up a situation before they make a decision.

I hate to say this, but Boydy and Crossy can learn a lot about these intangibles from Libba Jr. -- which makes me think that they can learn a lot from Libba Snr (as I imagine he would have been the one to drill this football intelligence into Jr.). What price Libba Snr for midfield coach?

Well, they are the best ball winners we have and no one is coming through to replace them. Have to work with what we have. Don't you agree that perhaps they should both try and do a little less at times, but do it better? If fatigue was an issue in the legs, surely better to get subbed off than kick it to the opposition.

[Mofra]

Well, they are the best ball winners we have and no one is coming through to replace them. Have to work with what we have. Don't you agree that perhaps they should both try and do a little less at times, but do it better? If fatigue was an issue in the legs, surely better to get subbed off than kick it to the opposition.
Libba, Smith & Wallis will develop as the inside team in time, but only Libba is really ready yet to perform consistently.

I have to wonder if we have a wider mental issue of the players putting too much pressure on themselves; Jones was mentioned in the press conference, Grant was mentioned last year, Boyd & Cross are football fanatics who obsess over every detail.
Cooney & Lake are two of the more relaxed players at the club, and when fit they are our two best.

[LostDoggy]

I have to wonder if we have a wider mental issue of the players putting too much pressure on themselves; Jones was mentioned in the press conference, Grant was mentioned last year, Boyd & Cross are football fanatics who obsess over every detail.
Cooney & Lake are two of the more relaxed players at the club, and when fit they are our two best.

There's probably something to this. When I used to play tennis I used to read a lot about the mental side of sport, and it was interesting how many coaches used to say that they wanted their players to be intense in training but as relaxed as possible out on court, because there would already be a natural tension that would take over in any case and if you are putting even more pressure on yourself you're only going to make mistakes, crack, or not have the mental space to make good decisions.

You see the extreme example in Cyril -- he's clearly put a lot of intensity into the physical side of his game ie. his chasing etc, but the mental side of his game is very relaxed; he looks like he's making decisions sitting in the lounge room watching the game, so while people are running around him like headless chooks he can stop, prop, lean one way, handball the other way right into the path of a running player. Aker was like this too -- it's like the game runs in slow-mo in their heads.

In contrast, it seems like with some of our more intense dudes, when things aren't going their way their natural instinct is to try even harder or become even more intense, and in tennis parlance, their unforced error count just keeps going up and up because they get tunnel vision like a bull charging at a red rag and can't think clearly.

You know, extending the bullfighting metaphor: in 99.9% of cases the bull gets killed in the end -- it's the smart, savvy, cool-headed matador that prevails.

[LostDoggy]

ps. It seems like I have a lot of Hawthorn examples when it comes to players with nous: Mitchell, Sewell, Cyril etc.

Is it just coincidence or is it a result of good recruiting (picking the right skillset) and good teaching by the coaching staff?

[Ghost Dog]

There's probably something to this. When I used to play tennis I used to read a lot about the mental side of sport, and it was interesting how many coaches used to say that they wanted their players to be intense in training but as relaxed as possible out on court, because there would already be a natural tension that would take over in any case and if you are putting even more pressure on yourself you're only going to make mistakes, crack, or not have the mental space to make good decisions.

You see the extreme example in Cyril -- he's clearly put a lot of intensity into the physical side of his game ie. his chasing etc, but the mental side of his game is very relaxed; he looks like he's making decisions sitting in the lounge room watching the game, so while people are running around him like headless chooks he can stop, prop, lean one way, handball the other way right into the path of a running player. Aker was like this too -- it's like the game runs in slow-mo in their heads.

In contrast, it seems like with some of our more intense dudes, when things aren't going their way their natural instinct is to try even harder or become even more intense, and in tennis parlance, their unforced error count just keeps going up and up because they get tunnel vision like a bull charging at a red rag and can't think clearly.

You know, extending the bullfighting metaphor: in 99.9% of cases the bull gets killed in the end -- it's the smart, savvy, cool-headed matador that prevails.

:rolleyes: let's not forget the matador has a sword...

[Ghost Dog]

Libba, Smith & Wallis will develop as the inside team in time, but only Libba is really ready yet to perform consistently.

I have to wonder if we have a wider mental issue of the players putting too much pressure on themselves; Jones was mentioned in the press conference, Grant was mentioned last year, Boyd & Cross are football fanatics who obsess over every detail.
Cooney & Lake are two of the more relaxed players at the club, and when fit they are our two best.

very good points mofra. Something in this observation - had not thought about it before.

[Mofra]

When I used to play tennis I used to read a lot about the mental side of sport, and it was interesting how many coaches used to say that they wanted their players to be intense in training but as relaxed as possible out on court, because there would already be a natural tension that would take over in any case and if you are putting even more pressure on yourself you're only going to make mistakes, crack, or not have the mental space to make good decisions.

You see the extreme example in Cyril -- he's clearly put a lot of intensity into the physical side of his game ie. his chasing etc, but the mental side of his game is very relaxed; he looks like he's making decisions sitting in the lounge room watching the game, so while people are running around him like headless chooks he can stop, prop, lean one way, handball the other way right into the path of a running player. Aker was like this too -- it's like the game runs in slow-mo in their heads.

In contrast, it seems like with some of our more intense dudes, when things aren't going their way their natural instinct is to try even harder or become even more intense, and in tennis parlance, their unforced error count just keeps going up and up because they get tunnel vision like a bull charging at a red rag and can't think clearly.
Out of interest, what methods did your coaches of dealing with this?

I do remember Turtle saying his goal kicking yips were 100% mental, and when he ignored the sticks and started passing to someone in the crowd his accuracy % improved drastically. It's interesting to hear about how coaches & players deal with the mental side of the game.


Is it just coincidence or is it a result of good recruiting (picking the right skillset) and good teaching by the coaching staff?
To use a Hawthorn example, they're premiership favourites and Boumann is getting a game for them.
Their 2nd hand players (Hale, Gibson) tend to thrive their too.

Sydney seem to turn opposition fringe types into better players too - Kennedy looks set to become A grade, Everitt looks like an AFL player, they never seem to recruit ruckmen.

[Daughter of the West]

There's probably something to this. When I used to play tennis I used to read a lot about the mental side of sport, and it was interesting how many coaches used to say that they wanted their players to be intense in training but as relaxed as possible out on court, because there would already be a natural tension that would take over in any case and if you are putting even more pressure on yourself you're only going to make mistakes, crack, or not have the mental space to make good decisions.

I had a tennis coach years ago that gave me a video related to the "zone". It talked about types of performance being like rings around a target, and the centre of the target was the "Ideal Performance State (IPS)" - where your best tennis just seemed to come completely naturally.

The rings around IPS were (from the outside in):
1. tanking - having given up and not trying;
2. anger - which was closer to the target because you actually care and are getting frustrated; and
3. choking - which up to a point, was considered a good sign because you were closest to the target

We appear to be perpetually stuck at the choking stage.

I don't actually remember how you got from choking to IPS though, mum taped over the video! :(
I do think there is merit in the overthinking/overtrying theory though - you only get more and more wound up when you make a mistake and it ends up being a downward spiral.

[Pedro Sanchez]

7 is less than 8 I suppose.
Markovic was awful, not sure why McCartney left him on him so long.

I dont think Markovic was awful, it was more that Kennedy was very very good.

[LostDoggy]

That absolutely sums it up for me. It seems like the punters get very defensive when guys who rack up big stats get bagged, but it's simply not just about effort.

In international soccer, England has always put up a good effort but never get anywhere against teams with more nous and tactical intelligence. Boydy and Crossy are our Steven Gerrard and Frank Lampard -- two physical, dogged, absolute triers who do great things on the stat-sheet but are generally ineffective at the highest level where much smarter and cunning guys like Xavi and Mesut Ozil can think their way around you.

I am struck by this comparison when I watch the work of guys like Sam Mitchell or Pendlebury vs. our two champions. NO QUESTION Boydy and Crossy give their all every time, but when you watch just the smarts of a Mitchell or Sewell or Pendles as they think their way through traffic, where it's not just about getting the ball at any cost, but also about the way they position themselves just before picking up the ball, the way they turn their hands at the last minute to ensure a perfect angle for their disposal, how far they let the ball run before intercepting it, how they've summed up a situation before they make a decision.

I hate to say this, but Boydy and Crossy can learn a lot about these intangibles from Libba Jr. -- which makes me think that they can learn a lot from Libba Snr (as I imagine he would have been the one to drill this football intelligence into Jr.). What price Libba Snr for midfield coach?

Each of the aforementioned players from other teams have a hell of alot of silk backing them up at Geelong, Collingwood and Hawthorn. What is killing us at the moment is poor drafting, development and retention of first and second round picks who can give these guys a chop out (really over last 5-10 years). And I'm not talking about speculative late draft picks such as Dahlhaus, Harbrow, etc.. Both these guys (Boyd and Cross) have their faults, but what do expect of late draft and rookie picks.

Maybe they are at fault for thinking they have to do it all themselves, but maybe they have to - especially when Cooney is running at 50% and Griffen out. As an aside, I think this year's draft is so important to us and really need to draft some players who a) get the ball and b) can use it.

Whilst I am on the topic of midfielders I think it really stood out that only one player in our team blocked with intent for his teammates. An indictment on the club that it was Clay Smith.

[Ozza]

Saints:

Daulhaus makes things happen with the ball.
Libba - super in close.
Picko - kept Kerr to 7 possessions for 3 quarters. Enough said.

Sinners:
Brian Lake - pretty woeful.
Markovic - obviously a shocker.
Easton Wood's handballing. His kicking too actually.
Roughead - doesn't go hard enough.

[Ghost Dog]

Saints:

Daulhaus makes things happen with the ball.
Libba - super in close.
Picko - kept Kerr to 7 possessions for 3 quarters. Enough said.

Sinners:
Brian Lake - pretty woeful.
Markovic - obviously a shocker.
Easton Wood's handballing. His kicking too actually.
Roughead - doesn't go hard enough.

Wait - define a sinner for us. Ok he had a shocking day against a very good player. Another poster put it well. The opposition on Marko was very very good. Even premier backmen, mick martin of old on Ablett, Lake on Buddy, get beaten up now and then. Does this make them sinners?
The coach discussed moving him off, decided not to- figured it was a good development move. How does that make him a sinner exactly?
Turnover city caused a flood into our defensive 50 and so you whack Marko for that. Hardly fair.

[AndrewP6]

Wait - define a sinner for us. Why was it a shocker? Another poster put it well. The opposition on Marko was very very good. Even premier backmen, mick martin of old on Ablett, Lake on Buddy, get beaten up now and then. Does this make them sinners?
The coach discussed moving him off, decided not to- figured it was a good development move. How does that make him a sinner exactly?
Sorry, but I'm sticking up for Marko. he followed his orders to the best of his ability and not a single player would have done better.

That's why I nominated the coach in this category. There's development, and there's demoralisation. What McCartney did falls in the latter for mine.

[LostDoggy]

Saints

The kids. Dalhaus, Libba, Smith leading the way.

Special mention to Picken, love the way he goes at it, so hard, didn't let Kerr have any space, and his tackling was excellent. I'd love to have a team of Liam Pickens.

Sinners

I'll leave that for next week to see if any of the players already mentioned turn it around.

[mjp]

I will leave the Saints / Sinners thing for now, but I was very disappointed by the number of easy possessions the WCE outside runners - Rosa, Gaff and Shuey - etc were allowed to have. Rosa had 31 touches - far over the odds.

I would have thought that the primary problem to solve on the weekend was not the backline - but rather the ability of the WC runners to carry the lines unimpeded. Our plan should have been to keep the ball inside the game and ensure defensive cover on the outside players...we didn't and it cost us.

Our ferocity at the contest was to be admired - is there a bit too much 'at the ball' stuff and not quite enough time spent cutting off opposition receiving options?

[Sedat]

I will leave the Saints / Sinners thing for now, but I was very disappointed by the number of easy possessions the WCE outside runners - Rosa, Gaff and Shuey - etc were allowed to have. Rosa had 31 touches - far over the odds.
Exactly the same thing happened in the 1st half of the return Etihad match last season. Gaff especially was given acres of space to run riot early in that match, which ultimately meant we played catch-up in the 2nd half.

Our inability to clear the congestion and run the lines will be a major issue for the new coaching panel to fix. We simply have too many one-paced mids and runners who cannot clear the congestion and deliver further upfield under no pressure, which in turn makes it difficult for the forwards to create separation from their direct opponents.

[LostDoggy]

Our ferocity at the contest was to be admired - is there a bit too much 'at the ball' stuff and not quite enough time spent cutting off opposition receiving options?

Same problem as last year isn't it? Our guys are all 'at the ball' types, and we often see three or four heads over the ball and then no one covering outside. It was my biggest concern with Macca trying to fix the inside game and talking about intensity: none of our core midfielders in Griffen, Huddo (when he was here), Coons, Minnow, Boydy, Crossy, Addison, Ward (when he was here), Gia et al lack intensity or an inside game.

It's what we do once we're inside (keep it in, block runners, find our runners etc.) that has been the weak link for the past 12-18 months... I think giving Gia big minutes in the midfield rotation (and making him, rather than Boydy, the play caller) can be a good short-term fix. Between he and Libba they may be able to bring some smarts to the inside.

[Dazza]

Saints -

Most of the sides effort.
Libba, Smith, Dahlhaus.
Addison. Keep it up Dylan. Been good all year so far IMO.

Sinners -

Our disposal at times starting with the captain.
Mcartney not making a move on Kennedy early on.
Our ruckmen were beaten soundly. At least negate the play if you can't win it.
Jones goal kicking needs work.

[Desipura]

I will leave the Saints / Sinners thing for now, but I was very disappointed by the number of easy possessions the WCE outside runners - Rosa, Gaff and Shuey - etc were allowed to have. Rosa had 31 touches - far over the odds.

I would have thought that the primary problem to solve on the weekend was not the backline - but rather the ability of the WC runners to carry the lines unimpeded. Our plan should have been to keep the ball inside the game and ensure defensive cover on the outside players...we didn't and it cost us.

Our ferocity at the contest was to be admired - is there a bit too much 'at the ball' stuff and not quite enough time spent cutting off opposition receiving options?
Does not help when Cross is going up in the ruck leaving his opponent to get on a Nic Nat or Cox tap out.

[soupman]

I think giving Gia big minutes in the midfield rotation (and making him, rather than Boydy, the play caller) can be a good short-term fix. Between he and Libba they may be able to bring some smarts to the inside.

This isn't a bad idea. Gia is one of our best ball users under pressure, has shown he can be effecive in the midfield in both getting the ball and using it, and is eanough of a leader to direct a bit of play. The only downside is that it robs our forwardline of it's only established AFL forward.

[Mofra]

This isn't a bad idea. Gia is one of our best ball users under pressure, has shown he can be effecive in the midfield in both getting the ball and using it, and is eanough of a leader to direct a bit of play. The only downside is that it robs our forwardline of it's only established AFL forward.
Gia is also in the top few for cardio at the club so can run the game out.
I'm not against Gia spending more time in the middle with Cooney spending more time up forward to help the loss of experience there.
It's the main reason I'm not sure we should bring Cordy in this week (as per many of the match commitee suggestions) - if a lack of run is our problem, another tall isn't going to help us.

[bornadog]

Gia is also in the top few for cardio at the club so can run the game out.
I'm not against Gia spending more time in the middle with Cooney spending more time up forward to help the loss of experience there.
It's the main reason I'm not sure we should bring Cordy in this week (as per many of the match commitee suggestions) - if a lack of run is our problem, another tall isn't going to help us.

We mainly lost the game on Sunday due to centre bounce clearances. Nataniu out jumped our rucks and delivered the ball straight to the WC midfield who then banged it long to Kennedy. We also gave away 5 free kicks in front of goal and didn't take our chances when we had the opportunity to kick goals.

We need more output from the midfield so a Griffen, Sherman or DJ would help our cause.

[DragzLS1]

We need to not give away free's in front of Goal and take our chances.. If we didnt away 2 free kicks infront of Goal and Jones took 2 out of the 3 chances he had we would have been very close in the last Quarter.

Saints: Clay, Dahl and everybody that just put in, Maccas decision to leave Markovic on Kennedy (Markovic has to learn the hard way and Macca knows it, which will only benefit in the long run)

Sinners: Boyd with his disposal and misses easy goals that would have given us the momentum

All in all we know where we stand and what needs to be fixed this week. Bring on Adelaide!

[AndrewP6]

Saints: Maccas decision to leave Markovic on Kennedy (Markovic has to learn the hard way and Macca knows it, which will only benefit in the long run)


That's assuming Markovic is the kind of player who gains confidence from getting his arse kicked. I think it was a stupid move.

[SlimPickens]

That's assuming Markovic is the kind of player who gains confidence from getting his arse kicked. I think it was a stupid move.

Don't remember Brian Harris early in his career? It's not confidence but experience and knowledge that Marko will gain from "getting his arse kicked". I have no problem with Macca leaving Marko on one of the top forwards in the competition as it's going to help him learn and hopefully become a better player in the future.

[Mofra]

Don't remember Brian Harris early in his career? It's not confidence but experience and knowledge that Marko will gain from "getting his arse kicked". I have no problem with Macca leaving Marko on one of the top forwards in the competition as it's going to help him learn and hopefully become a better player in the future.
The then Harris had virtually no other talls to relieve him, and it was part of Eade's "settle the back 6" strategy that worked wonders after 12-18 months.

Marko had the Weagles game last year to learn how to have his arse kicked.

[DragzLS1]

The then Harris had virtually no other talls to relieve him, and it was part of Eade's "settle the back 6" strategy that worked wonders after 12-18 months.

Marko had the Weagles game last year to learn how to have his arse kicked.

He didnt have his arse kicked the whole game he got beat in the 1st qaurter and done alot better throughout the game. Then cops a stupid free when Marko won the ball brilliantly yet the ref decides to give Kennedy his 6th or 7th for the day. Lake needs to help out and go 3rd man up early which will help both of there confidence.

We got smashed in the first qaurter out of the centre and the ball was just flying in and let be honest they werent getting too many calls against them yet when we had in in our forward line they were all over Gia and Jones and nothing was done about it. Clay smiths 4th goal just shows them holding on to him but he still got boot to ball.

Either way im happy to eat my words if Marko doesnt prove me right over the next 4 weeks, starting this Saturday against Adelaide!

[Maddog37]

Tom Lonergan from the Cats had his arse kicked quite often and looked very limited as a player but has developed ok. Not the most talented but plays his role. If Marko can play his role then it will be ok in time.

I do like the way he keeps his head up.

[SlimPickens]

The then Harris had virtually no other talls to relieve him, and it was part of Eade's "settle the back 6" strategy that worked wonders after 12-18 months.

Marko had the Weagles game last year to learn how to have his arse kicked.

The game where Tom Williams had 6 kicked on him by Kennedy? Oh Marko was the scapegoat that day as well. Obviously i'd prefer that he didn't have 6 kicked on him on sunday but to give Marko/BMac a spray for trying to develop is a bit rich.

How about you offer them the same time frame to Marko (17 games?) that worked wonders after 12-18 months for Lake as you mentioned above? He still has 6 months in my calculations.

[westbulldog]

Saints
Smith...class act with even better things to come.
Dalhaus - dazzling and committed.
Picken - great tagging job.

Sinners
Markovic on Kennedy - I'm watching the first quarter from o/s and thinking 2011 all over again - when is McCartney going to make the move ffs - how clear does it have to be ?
Jones - lots of promise but you're a foward son - forwards are there to kick goals not points.

[Mofra]

The game where Tom Williams had 6 kicked on him by Kennedy? Oh Marko was the scapegoat that day as well. Obviously i'd prefer that he didn't have 6 kicked on him on sunday but to give Marko/BMac a spray for trying to develop is a bit rich.

How about you offer them the same time frame to Marko (17 games?) that worked wonders after 12-18 months for Lake as you mentioned above? He still has 6 months in my calculations.
We are talking about this game though - there are people who are happy with his performance, and those of us who want him to do better. I want him to do better.

If you want to go back to that game, he was dropped the next week so the coaching panel also saw his performance that way last year.


He didnt have his arse kicked the whole game he got beat in the 1st qaurter and done alot better throughout the game. Then cops a stupid free when Marko won the ball brilliantly yet the ref decides to give Kennedy his 6th or 7th for the day. Lake needs to help out and go 3rd man up early which will help both of there confidence.
We had a spare man in defence in the 3rd which helped too, Higgins copped a beauty backing back into a pack with courage.

Marko was beaten by Kennedy though, I was at the game and I couldn't see it any differently. He only ever really bodies to the goal side of his opponent (which works against many forwards) and Kennedy worked this out early and carved him up doing it.

[DragzLS1]

We are talking about this game though - there are people who are happy with his performance, and those of us who want him to do better. I want him to do better.

If you want to go back to that game, he was dropped the next week so the coaching panel also saw his performance that way last year.


We had a spare man in defence in the 3rd which helped too, Higgins copped a beauty backing back into a pack with courage.

Marko was beaten by Kennedy though, I was at the game and I couldn't see it any differently. He only ever really bodies to the goal side of his opponent (which works against many forwards) and Kennedy worked this out early and carved him up doing it.

Exactly why he will learn for future reference ;)

Yes he was beat and we all obviously want him to do better who wouldnt? But the fact is Macca left him on Kennedy to learn from his mistakes. We should have played a spare man from the start imo but we didnt.. Think he will do better from here on. Give him a few more rounds to judge where he is at and atleast until next season until you judge soo critically. By then Talia should be due for a call up anyway ;)

[Ghost Dog]

Exactly why he will learn for future reference ;)

Yes he was beat and we all obviously want him to do better who wouldnt? But the fact is Macca left him on Kennedy to learn from his mistakes. We should have played a spare man from the start imo but we didnt.. Think he will do better from here on. Give him a few more rounds to judge where he is at and atleast until next season until you judge soo critically. By then Talia should be due for a call up anyway ;)

Well said.

wrote a letter to the club today to give to Marko. Encouraged and cheered his effort. Something along the lines of even elite defenders have a dirty day, especially at the start.
They said they gave it to him and he much appreciated it. so there you go. I've written plenty of letters in the past and never gotten a reply.

[bornadog]

Well said.

wrote a letter to the club today to give to Marko. Encouraged and cheered his effort. Something along the lines of even elite defenders have a dirty day, especially at the start.
They said they gave it to him and he much appreciated it. so there you go. I've written plenty of letters in the past and never gotten a reply.

Yours was probably the only positive one with the rest of the letters and emails being scathing:D

[Ghost Dog]

Yours was probably the only positive one with the rest of the letters and emails being scathing:D

Quality over quantity BAD :D GO DOGS!

[Mofra]

Exactly why he will learn for future reference ;)

Yes he was beat and we all obviously want him to do better who wouldnt? But the fact is Macca left him on Kennedy to learn from his mistakes. We should have played a spare man from the start imo but we didnt.. Think he will do better from here on. Give him a few more rounds to judge where he is at and atleast until next season until you judge soo critically. By then Talia should be due for a call up anyway ;)
Simple question - what will he learn from Kennedy in 2012 that he didn't learn from playing on him in 2011?

Nobody has demanded he be sacked/cut/beheaded. He got beat in Round 1 vs West Coast which is the thread topic - why can't we as supporters acknowledge it?

[DragzLS1]

Well said.

wrote a letter to the club today to give to Marko. Encouraged and cheered his effort. Something along the lines of even elite defenders have a dirty day, especially at the start.
They said they gave it to him and he much appreciated it. so there you go. I've written plenty of letters in the past and never gotten a reply.

Good on you im sure he would have appreciated it :)

[DragzLS1]

Simple question - what will he learn from Kennedy in 2012 that he didn't learn from playing on him in 2011?

Nobody has demanded he be sacked/cut/beheaded. He got beat in Round 1 vs West Coast which is the thread topic - why can't we as supporters acknowledge it?

He got beat I never said he didnt but its not the end of the world.

We have to start being more positive and encourage. For starters we should start cheering when any one of our players does something good.

When Marko did beat Kennedy with spoils ect we should start cheering! Not sit there in silence bitting our nails and hoping it doesnt go back there. He got smashed last year by him aswell but if I recall after he came back he was very solid for us! He even kept Franklin to 1 goal over 3 quarters until the game was out of our reach and Frankling kicked 4 on him in the final quarter when they were 40 points infront anyway.. Dont see why this wouldnt help him learn more.

He has played 17 games at AFL level so we need to give him some more time to prove himself. Nobody learns straight away, im sure you have made a mistake more then once before you have learnt how to do something better.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Simple question - what will he learn from Kennedy in 2012 that he didn't learn from playing on him in 2011?

Nobody has demanded he be sacked/cut/beheaded. He got beat in Round 1 vs West Coast which is the thread topic - why can't we as supporters acknowledge it?

My question is how long do we persist?

Markovic won't be in our next premiership challenging side. That's at least 3-4 years away. He's a mature aged player -- how much better can he actually get? I'd argue the scope is minimal.

It becomes a question of 'stop gap' vs. 'future'. He will get a few more opportunities, and rightfully so, but if he doesn't learn fast then I would rather us develop a young key back. Possibly Panos first, Talia second.

[SlimPickens]

My question is how long do we persist?

Markovic won't be in our next premiership challenging side. That's at least 3-4 years away. He's a mature aged player -- how much better can he actually get? I'd argue the scope is minimal.

It becomes a question of 'stop gap' vs. 'future'. He will get a few more opportunities, and rightfully so, but if he doesn't learn fast then I would rather us develop a young key back. Possibly Panos first, Talia second.

Marko is 25, thats younger than Williams. He finished top 10 in our B & F last year. I'd like to think he can be a 100 games player for the club. There are plenty of examples across the competition of mature age players having an mpact and Marko can be one of them.

[Greystache]

My question is how long do we persist?

Markovic won't be in our next premiership challenging side. That's at least 3-4 years away. He's a mature aged player -- how much better can he actually get? I'd argue the scope is minimal.

It becomes a question of 'stop gap' vs. 'future'. He will get a few more opportunities, and rightfully so, but if he doesn't learn fast then I would rather us develop a young key back. Possibly Panos first, Talia second.

As SlimPickens pointed out, Markovic is younger than Williams.

He is also taking more responsibility than Williams despite having played 57 fewer games. Markovic gets the best opposition forwards every week, whereas Williams has been protected his whole career, and even still only plays on a decent forward when we don't have any other options.

I'd like to see Markovic given an extended run, even if we have to suffer some pain in the short term. Because despite his limitations I'm of the opinion he's less limited than Williams and has potentially more upside.

Long term I'd also like to see us developing Talia to replace both players.

[bornadog]

As SlimPickens pointed out, Markovic is younger than Williams.

He is also taking more responsibility than Williams despite having played 57 fewer games. Markovic gets the best opposition forwards every week, whereas Williams has been protected his whole career, and even still only plays on a decent forward when we don't have any other options.

I'd like to see Markovic given an extended run, even if we have to suffer some pain in the short term. Because despite his limitations I'm of the opinion he's less limited than Williams and has potentially more upside.

Long term I'd also like to see us developing Talia to replace both players.

I don't agree with this. Williams has done very well on a few big name forwards over the past few years. He has Travis Cloke's measure by beating him in several games in the last few years including last year at the MCG and the qualifying final in 2010. We have seen him beat Buddy in Tassie as well. Williams just needs a good run injury free and to find some form and he will be a very solid CHB. His advantage over Markovic is his athleticism.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

As SlimPickens pointed out, Markovic is younger than Williams.

He is also taking more responsibility than Williams despite having played 57 fewer games. Markovic gets the best opposition forwards every week, whereas Williams has been protected his whole career, and even still only plays on a decent forward when we don't have any other options.

I'd like to see Markovic given an extended run, even if we have to suffer some pain in the short term. Because despite his limitations I'm of the opinion he's less limited than Williams and has potentially more upside.

Long term I'd also like to see us developing Talia to replace both players.

Has Markovic ever really done a decent job against a high quality opponent though? I know he's only played 17 games or so, but he's also played a fair bit down at Box Hill. He's not new to the position; I personally cannot see him getting any better than he is now.

Williams can be all over the shop, but he has done some good defensive jobs on quality opponents. Cloke and Brown come to mind. Tommy has at least shown an ability to keep up with the premier forwards, even if he's had some poor performances in between.

I think at present, he's slightly ahead of Markovic, and he's got a lot more upside.

Markovic's lack of pace is a real worry and his body on body game struggles against the monsters.

[Greystache]

I don't agree with this. Williams has done very well on a few big name forwards over the past few years. He has Travis Cloke's measure by beating him in several games in the last few years including last year at the MCG and the qualifying final in 2010. We have seen him beat Buddy in Tassie as well. Williams just needs a good run injury free and to find some form and he will be a very solid CHB. His advantage over Markovic is his athleticism.

I just don't get why so many supporters have this view that Williams will eventually develop into a good key defender.

In the past 4 years there's no more than a handful of games people can point to in which he's been serviceable. Keeping Buddy to 5 goals 4 years ago, Cloke to 1 goal in ankle deep water etc, hardly inspiring stuff.

He's hardly made any progress in 4 years, still doesn't take the best forwards unless we're out of options, yet Markovic gets lambasted by supporters for not doing a good enough job on the players we're hiding Williams from.

I'm clearly on my own, but I think if Williams had had a better run with injury we'd be talking about how he's not up to it.

[SlimPickens]

I don't agree with this. Williams has done very well on a few big name forwards over the past few years. He has Travis Cloke's measure by beating him in several games in the last few years including last year at the MCG and the qualifying final in 2010. We have seen him beat Buddy in Tassie as well. Williams just needs a good run injury free and to find some form and he will be a very solid CHB. His advantage over Markovic is his athleticism.

I love this reference as a break out game for Tommy, he did play very well and Buddy still kicked 5(Couple thanks to Crossy;)). I actually don't see Williams and Marko vying for the same place but rather one at CHB one at FB. Marko more suited to your stay at home forward and Williams against the bigger athletic type.

We need both of these players to step up and continue to develop with Lake and Hargrave getting towards the end.

[bornadog]

I just don't get why so many supporters have this view that Williams will eventually develop into a good key defender.

In the past 4 years there's no more than a handful of games people can point to in which he's been serviceable. Keeping Buddy to 5 goals 4 years ago, Cloke to 1 goal in ankle deep water etc, hardly inspiring stuff.

He's hardly made any progress in 4 years, still doesn't take the best forwards unless we're out of options, yet Markovic gets lambasted by supporters for not doing a good enough job on the players we're hiding Williams from.

I'm clearly on my own, but I think if Williams had had a better run with injury we'd be talking about how he's not up to it.

I guess we all have our opinions on Williams, but I don't agree he doesn't pick up the best players. He usually picks up whoever plays CHF and he regularly beats one of the best in the AFL in Cloke. If you look at his career, 2010 was his best year playing 23 games and playing very well.

As for Markovic, I have never lambasted him and thought the coaching panel should have moved him after Kennedy had kicked 4. Markovic could have picked up Cox or Nic Nat and Lake on Kennedy, but thats history now.

[Greystache]

Has Markovic ever really done a decent job against a high quality opponent though? I know he's only played 17 games or so, but he's also played a fair bit down at Box Hill. He's not new to the position; I personally cannot see him getting any better than he is now.

Williams can be all over the shop, but he has done some good defensive jobs on quality opponents. Cloke and Brown come to mind. Tommy has at least shown an ability to keep up with the premier forwards, even if he's had some poor performances in between.

I think at present, he's slightly ahead of Markovic, and he's got a lot more upside.

Markovic's lack of pace is a real worry and his body on body game struggles against the monsters.

He beat Hurley in a one sided massacre against Essendon last year, and to me he looked a dramatically improved player from that which we drafted in 2009. He may never be more than a serviceable stopper, but I'd be happy with that. Give him 73 games (which is what we've given Williams' development) and I believe his output will be better.

I have no more faith in Williams ability to a reliable job now than I did 3 years ago, that's my concern. I think his lack of progress gets swept aside by the by the lack of experience as a kid, and lack of continuity excuses, but I just don't accept it. He's been in the AFL system 7 years, at the rate he's progressing by the time he's ready to step up he'll be too old do utilize these athletic gifts we've invested in so heavily.

Either way, he seems to get a hell of a lot more leniency for his performances that Markovic does, even to the point where some people are convinced Kennedy kicked all 10 goals last year on Markovic and Williams didn't even play on him.

[AndrewP6]

Marko is 25, thats younger than Williams. He finished top 10 in our B & F last year. I'd like to think he can be a 100 games player for the club. There are plenty of examples across the competition of mature age players having an mpact and Marko can be one of them.

Marko recently turned 25, Williams is 26 in July. He's not years older.

[Mofra]

Williams can be all over the shop, but he has done some good defensive jobs on quality opponents. Cloke and Brown come to mind. Tommy has at least shown an ability to keep up with the premier forwards, even if he's had some poor performances in between.

I think at present, he's slightly ahead of Markovic, and he's got a lot more upside.
Williams does well when he gets some continuity to his game, he's had a stop/start career thus far except for one fairly uninjured season which was his best.

[Mofra]

He got beat I never said he didnt but its not the end of the world.

We have to start being more positive and encourage. For starters we should start cheering when any one of our players does something good.

When Marko did beat Kennedy with spoils ect we should start cheering! Not sit there in silence bitting our nails and hoping it doesnt go back there. He got smashed last year by him aswell but if I recall after he came back he was very solid for us! He even kept Franklin to 1 goal over 3 quarters until the game was out of our reach and Frankling kicked 4 on him in the final quarter when they were 40 points infront anyway.. Dont see why this wouldnt help him learn more.

He has played 17 games at AFL level so we need to give him some more time to prove himself. Nobody learns straight away, im sure you have made a mistake more then once before you have learnt how to do something better.
1. He got beat which was the topic of the thread, nobody has suggested ramifications. It's a saints and sinners thread, not the match committee thread, not a long term futures thread

2. Who doesn't cheer when a player does well in a contest? That's a big leap to make from mentioning a player was beaten in a single game

3. See point 2

3. FFS how many times do we need to go over this? He got beat in the West Coast game as per the point of this thread, but nobody has suggested he be dropped, or his career is over, in this or the match day thread. Where are you getting yoru assumed ramifications from?

[Ghost Dog]

1. He got beat which was the topic of the thread, nobody has suggested ramifications. It's a saints and sinners thread, not the match committee thread, not a long term futures thread

2. Who doesn't cheer when a player does well in a contest? That's a big leap to make from mentioning a player was beaten in a single game

3. See point 2

3. FFS how many times do we need to go over this? He got beat in the West Coast game as per the point of this thread, but nobody has suggested he be dropped, or his career is over, in this or the match day thread. Where are you getting yoru assumed ramifications from?

Your sinner is McCartney, or our midfield, if anyone, but can hardly point the finger at Marko.

[always right]

He should be taking the third best forward. Unfortunately we don't have that luxury at the moment.

If we had Morris, he would have played on Kennedy, Lake on the ruckman and Marcovic on Lynch (instead of Shaggy). I would have been confident in his ability to beat Lynch but circumstances forced him onto Kennedy.

No body has mentioned why Lake wasnt played on Kennedy from the start. Is it simply because Macca thought Lake could be a more attacking playing on Cox/Natanui or does he have doubts about Lake playing on the opposition star? I actually think that's a more interesting topic than the debate over Marcovic's place in the side.

[Mofra]

Your sinner is McCartney, or our midfield, if anyone, but can hardly point the finger at Marko.
Ok.

By the standards of Woof, no key backman can be criticised, be it a single game or incident (unless their name is Mulligan).

Got it.

[Mofra]

I actually think that's a more interesting topic than the debate over Marcovic's place in the side.
There is no debate over his place in the side though :confused:

[bornadog]

No body has mentioned why Lake wasnt played on Kennedy from the start. Is it simply because Macca thought Lake could be a more attacking playing on Cox/Natanui or does he have doubts about Lake playing on the opposition star? I actually think that's a more interesting topic than the debate over Marcovic's place in the side.

I think because it was Lakes first game back after a long spell, they didn't want to expose him and thought he may get beaten anyway. As it turned out it wasn't Lake's best game and about what I believe the coaches expected.

[bornadog]

Ok.

By the standards of Woof, no key backman can be criticised, be it a single game or incident (unless their name is Mulligan).

Got it.

Mofra you made me laugh with this:D

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Your sinner is McCartney, or our midfield, if anyone, but can hardly point the finger at Marko.

Markovic was crap, particularly in that first quarter. There's no two ways about it.

He was out-bodied, out-positioned and out-played in every single facet of the game. Usually Markovic reads the play OK -- but a few times Kennedy took uncontested marks because Lucas was miles behind.

Defending a player is fine -- but he got hammered. Brutally. Not sure why some are dancing around this fact.

I disagreed with McCartney's teaching stance -- Lake should have played on Kennedy from the beginning, let alone after the first three goals.

[DragzLS1]

1. He got beat which was the topic of the thread, nobody has suggested ramifications. It's a saints and sinners thread, not the match committee thread, not a long term futures thread

2. Who doesn't cheer when a player does well in a contest? That's a big leap to make from mentioning a player was beaten in a single game

3. See point 2

3. FFS how many times do we need to go over this? He got beat in the West Coast game as per the point of this thread, but nobody has suggested he be dropped, or his career is over, in this or the match day thread. Where are you getting yoru assumed ramifications from?


refering to your point 2 - Im just saying from where I sit we dont make enough noise. If a player is having a shocker, lets get behind them and lift their confidence. You will be suprised howm uch that helps!

And I never assumed anybody wanted him dropped or his carrer was over, dont know where your getting your assumed ramifications from..? :s

I agreed that he got beat - But by understanding what i meant you will realise I was getting to the point that he will be better in the coming games, I dont know how you took it but I never said anything about people wanting him to be dropped and that he had a great game either.

next time Ill leave it to 1 line sentences and I wont go in to detail, might make it clearer for you....

But I like your passion and hope to see more of it! aslong as it is positive on game day (you can have what ever view you like on a forum, obviously nothing wrong with that)

Lake had a shocker aswell but first game in and we were never in with a chance against west coast, lets be honest.

[Mofra]

refering to your point 2 - Im just saying from where I sit we dont make enough noise. If a player is having a shocker, lets get behind them and lift their confidence. You will be suprised howm uch that helps!

And I never assumed anybody wanted him dropped or his carrer was over, dont know where your getting your assumed ramifications from..? :s

I agreed that he got beat - But by understanding what i meant you will realise I was getting to the point that he will be better in the coming games, I dont know how you took it but I never said anything about people wanting him to be dropped and that he had a great game either.

next time Ill leave it to 1 line sentences and I wont go in to detail, might make it clearer for you....

But I like your passion and hope to see more of it! aslong as it is positive on game day (you can have what ever view you like on a forum, obviously nothing wrong with that)

Lake had a shocker aswell but first game in and we were never in with a chance against west coast, lets be honest.
Detail is fine, derailling a comment and misrepresenting what someone else says is a bit far IMO.

Eg. "Give him more time to prove himself" is clearly a defence against being dropped or not writing him off - which nobody has done.

[DragzLS1]

Detail is fine, derailling a comment and misrepresenting what someone else says is a bit far IMO.

Eg. "Give him more time to prove himself" is clearly a defence against being dropped or not writing him off - which nobody has done.


I suppose I say it out loud like, ohh I reckon maybe we should give him some more time and then we will have a clear picture on where he is at and wether we have a better option. So im sorry if it came across differently but I get how you could have read that.

LETS PUT THIS GAME BEHIND US AND FIRE UP AGAINST THE CROWS!! cant wait

[LostDoggy]

I just don't get why so many supporters have this view that Williams will eventually develop into a good key defender.

In the past 4 years there's no more than a handful of games people can point to in which he's been serviceable. Keeping Buddy to 5 goals 4 years ago, Cloke to 1 goal in ankle deep water etc, hardly inspiring stuff.

He's hardly made any progress in 4 years, still doesn't take the best forwards unless we're out of options, yet Markovic gets lambasted by supporters for not doing a good enough job on the players we're hiding Williams from.

I'm clearly on my own, but I think if Williams had had a better run with injury we'd be talking about how he's not up to it.

Your not on your own. Even if Williams is a better player, he seems unreliable, you need to build a strong back six by playing them together for a long period of time, especially the core players like CHB. They need to get to know each other. Markovich was in our top 10 last year because he was able to get on the park consistently. Williams gets injured in the most innocuous fashions. He was just knocking the ball out of play this time.

Another tough job ahead for Markovich this week. It seems he has until Williams is fit to prove himself. If Williams comes back in I will support him as well.

I do recognise they are different types of players that have their own strengths but they are vying for the second KPB spot.

[LostDoggy]

I just don't get why so many supporters have this view that Williams will eventually develop into a good key defender.

In the past 4 years there's no more than a handful of games people can point to in which he's been serviceable. Keeping Buddy to 5 goals 4 years ago, Cloke to 1 goal in ankle deep water etc, hardly inspiring stuff.

He's hardly made any progress in 4 years, still doesn't take the best forwards unless we're out of options, yet Markovic gets lambasted by supporters for not doing a good enough job on the players we're hiding Williams from.

I'm clearly on my own, but I think if Williams had had a better run with injury we'd be talking about how he's not up to it.

Definitely not on your own there.

I can't believe how many years a player can be considered 'still developing' in this caper. The dude is 26, far past the median age in the AFL, and was drafted in the Buddy draft (!) -- that's SEVEN seasons in the system. He's not a kid.

I mean, the likes of Minnow and Higgins still get excused after 6-10 seasons on the list because they are somehow 'still developing'. No doubt we'll hear the same about Howard and Wallis in their 8th season if they are still borderline (like Williams).

[Mofra]

LETS PUT THIS GAME BEHIND US AND FIRE UP AGAINST THE CROWS!! cant wait
Yep.

Sadly, I will only get score updates as I'll be partying like mad for 3 days away from civilisation.

[Mofra]

I can't believe how many years a player can be considered 'still developing' in this caper.
If you're after a benchmark for this, Jarrad Waite still had "potential" as a 28 year old ;)

[Sedat]

If you're after a benchmark for this, Jarrad Waite still had "potential" as a 28 year old ;)
Nick Holland has been retired for years and still has potential written all over him :D

[Greystache]

Nick Holland has been retired for years and still has potential written all over him :D

A couple more summers in the gym and Jeff White will be ready to explode! :D

[Greystache]

And Tim Walsh... Nah he'll always be shit

[LostDoggy]

Did I say seven seasons? My math is all over the shop -- that's what happens when you're writing on the run in a tram. Williams was taken in the 2004 draft. That's NINE seasons. At some point you're not developing anymore. Of course you can still improve, but it's LONG past when a player can be reasonably expected to start producing regularly.

[LostDoggy]

If you're after a benchmark for this, Jarrad Waite still had "potential" as a 28 year old ;)

So, so true. So, so funny. :D

[LostDoggy]

A couple more summers in the gym and Jeff White will be ready to explode! :D

Of course you pick Josh Fraser over Will Minson -- the kid is one good pre-season away from justifying his no.1 pick status!

[Sedat]

Markovic was crap, particularly in that first quarter. There's no two ways about it.Finally got around to seeing a replay last night, and Marko really did stink it up in that first qtr. Not only his poor positioning with Kennedy but his fumbling under no pressure, his lack of awareness re: Cox tackling him, and his lack of strong defensive intent to kill the aerial contest. Our rucks were also very disappointing - I know they against the best but their efforts were passive and they had no hurt factor at all going the other way.