Saints and Sinners - Round 2 vs Adelaide

[GVGjr]

This is the 2nd edition of the weekly "Saints and Sinners" thread. Once the game against Adelaide Crows is concluded post your nominations for no more than three "Saints", who did something positive that caught your eye, and three "sinners", who are in your scopes for criticism. Try and make it constructive criticism.

Please limit it to no more than three of each, but feel free to make honourable/dishonourable mentions.

[LostDoggy]

Markovic's game was so up and down. Can't fault his endevour but make a few too many mistakes.
Sinners
Wood - disposal.
Hargrave possible injury
Saints
Boyd- lifted us
Lake - getting better but need to take more control.

[AndrewP6]

Saints
Boyd - redeemed himself with a couple of very nice goals, to go with his gazillion possessions ;)
Dahlhaus - love his endeavour, just keeps at them constantly, and tries to make things happen.
Marko - some really good passages of defensive work.
Honourable mention Murph.

Sinners
Jones - broken record, I know, but he really needs to convert chances.
Wood - I like him, but he's down at the moment.
Fox Footy Commentary team - between Dermie's incessant rambling, and Dwayne sounding like someone who has just won a competition to call a game, their work in the box is dreadful. Cliche City when they're on the mic.

As an aside, how are we going to go in this thread next week when we play the Saints? :D

[Sedat]

Saints - Griffen. Brilliant game, both inside and outside.
Saints - Cooney. Made some insightful runs and his delivery into forward 50 was telling (unlike most of his teammates.
Saints - Markovic - Made some heroic spoils and tried to initiate some run out of defensive 50.
(Honorable mentions to both ruckmen, who provided much better support to the mids this week when the ball hit the deck. Also Boyd who got less of it but got it in dangerous areas - brilliant 3rd qtr)

Sinners - Wood. Poor disposal under no pressure that coughed up easy ball and gifted the Crows on a couple of ill-timed occasions.
Sinners - Clay Smith. Field kicking is a worry for mine. Really love the way he cracks in but am very nervous when he has the ball in space.
Sinners - Markovic. Undid a lot of his great work with some panickly errors. Gave away free kicks when we had a numerical advantage down back. Messy disposals and missed tackles in defensive 50 that gave Adelaide some undeserved scorboard pressure.

[Remi Moses]

Saints - hopefully we break the duck next week
Lake- good signs tonight
Marko- better this week
Boyd- led the way after half time
Griffen- Great game
Dahlhaus- good again
Minson and Roughy - Better this week
Cooney - showed some good signs( won't be the player he was, but we know that)

Sinners- wood, to many turnovers, errors gotta be better
Jones- must convert more often
The new idea reporting on a Norf rookie and that Dud Pratt.
Would love to hear wTF happened to Hargrave, but had to endure this soap opera

[Remi Moses]

Saints - Griffen. Brilliant game, both inside and outside.
Saints - Cooney. Made some insightful runs and his delivery into forward 50 was telling (unlike most of his teammates.
Saints - Markovic - Made some heroic spoils and tried to initiate some run out of defensive 50.
(Honorable mentions to both ruckmen, who provided much better support to the mids this week when the ball hit the deck. Also Boyd who got less of it but got it in dangerous areas - brilliant 3rd qtr)

Sinners - Wood. Poor disposal under no pressure that coughed up easy ball and gifted the Crows on a couple of ill-timed occasions.
Sinners - Clay Smith. Field kicking is a worry for mine. Really love the way he cracks in but am very nervous when he has the ball in space.
Sinners - Markovic. Undid a lot of his great work with some panickly errors. Gave away free kicks when we had a numerical advantage down back. Messy disposals and missed tackles in defensive 50 that gave Adelaide some undeserved scorboard pressure.
Agree on Smith, just hope and pray he works at that aspect.
Just as long as he becomes an adequate kick.

[Greystache]

Saints

Griff- He's the only class player we have
Boyd- If you're going to rack them up at least hurt the opposition.
Markovic- If you were Williams this would be a break out game.

Sinners

Murphy- If you play in defence you have an opponent, how about about stopping them from slaughtering us. Two very poor games in a row.

Wood- someone in our jumper, just occasionally. Hargrave, see Wood but with 150 games more experience.

Forward 50 entries- Just look then kick, is it some foreign a concept. Look then kick!!

Ps- Minson- You're just not an AFL player, you try hard but it's rime to move on.

[jeemak]

Saints:

Griffen - Super competitive, hard and damaging
Boyd - Two excellent goals in the third, and was our only damaging midfielder with respect to the scoreboard (aside from the Picken goal)
Lake - Willingness to get involved and create this week was telling, still needs to tighten up on some smaller points with respect to defense but took a step forward today
Picken - Good numbers and scored a very valuable goal from reasonable distance

Sinners:

Wood - Needs to respect the football and understand how demoralising cheap skill errors can be for the team
Smith - Potentially a bit harsh due to his inexperience, though as a member of the senior side he needs to take more care with the ball
Liberatore - Ineffective today. Didn't make any glaring errors, though didn't get involved in the game at all

[GVGjr]

I'm having a think about who I would have as Saints and Sinners and to me Murphy seems to be a candidate for both, There was a couple of errors in marking him opponent mixed in with some great run and carry.

[Go_Dogs]

I'm having a think about who I would have as Saints and Sinners and to me Murphy seems to be a candidate for both, There was a couple of errors in marking him opponent mixed in with some great run and carry.

I gave him votes on the basis we really lacked run and he was one who consistently looked to provide it. He does need to tighten up a bit defensively, but opposition sides are going to look to play through his opponent as much as possible, so we need to be prepared to take the good with the bad.

Saints:
Griffen - We always looked dangerous when he had the ball in his hand. Looks set for his best year yet.
Lake - Just about back to his best tonight. Took a number of strong marks in defence and was instrumental (along with Markovic) in preventing the tall Crows forwards having a night out.
Giansiracusa - Just his finishing. Too many lack poise, pick the wrong option, or execute poorly to the right option. Gia with the ball 50-70m out will usually result in someone having a shot. Need to find a way to get more ball through Gia.

Sinners:
Wood- Did a few poor things, but also thought he did a few good things too. I'd really like to see us swing him forward/midfield, but without Morris and Williams we probably need him as that 3rd 'tall' defender.
Hargrave - Also did a few good things but still has a tendency to panic and kick when under pressure. He should be one of the senior guys with poise we rely on in those situations.

[angelopetraglia]

Saints

Lake - Welcome back Brian. Still a little rusty and that dropped mark in the last Q was costly. However, signs of the Brian of old last night. That will give him confidence.

Dalhaus - Just loving the Doll House. Just appears to create something every times he goes near it.

Boyd - was everywhere as per normal, but two super goals in the 3rd Q got us back in it. Two goals, led the team for tackles and clearances. Led from the front.

Sinnners

Minson - the big man had zero impact last night. Every time you think he has turned the corner he puts in a game like this. He is not a kid anymore. Disappointing.

Jones - Must take his chances. He didn't get many last night but that miss in the last Q was costly.

Higgins - See Jones. Needed to drill that goal in the 3rd Q when we had the momentum.

[The Pie Man]

Saints

Boyd - played the type of game we need from him. Despite efficiency woes, he's can kick 50+ comfortably and with an inexperienced forward line he needs to hit the scoreboard more often.

Dahl - just a super get from the rookie draft

Griffen - super talent on display last night

Sinners

Higgins - he was ok, but you feel the game complexion binging on his shot late in the 3rd. He should be nailing that

Jones - see Higgins. Bewildered he didn't try to snap that miss in the last. Was a crucial moment. Thought he was pretty good overall

Mixture of pride and annoyance from the game. Crows will feel deserved winners, but that feels like one that got away. The group needs a win, no better time than the Saints next week. Can't wait actually

[Sockeye Salmon]

Sinners

Murphy- If you play in defence you have an opponent, how about about stopping them from slaughtering us. Two very poor games in a row.



The one where Murphy was third man up and spilt the mark, we had a 4 on 2.

Liberatore was standing beside Petrenko when Murphy went for the mark but went hunting the ball instead of covering Murphy's arse.

[azabob]

Saints

As an aside, how are we going to go in this thread next week when we play the Saints? :D

Last season it wasn't called this, what was it called?

[always right]

Saints

Griff- He's the only class player we have
Boyd- If you're going to rack them up at least hurt the opposition.
Markovic- If you were Williams this would be a break out game.

Sinners

Murphy- If you play in defence you have an opponent, how about about stopping them from slaughtering us. Two very poor games in a row.

Wood- someone in our jumper, just occasionally. Hargrave, see Wood but with 150 games more experience.

Forward 50 entries- Just look then kick, is it some foreign a concept. Look then kick!!

Ps- Minson- You're just not an AFL player, you try hard but it's rime to move on.

If you expect Murphy to be more defensively minded then who do you want to provide the defensive rebound? The game changes when he has the ball in his hands running through the middle. You have to be prepared to wear a couple of goals as the flip side is a static defense.

[LostDoggy]

Saints
The effort overall was very good.

Sinners
Some of the defensive efforts from scapegoats.

[LostDoggy]

The one where Murphy was third man up and spilt the mark, we had a 4 on 2.

Liberatore was standing beside Petrenko when Murphy went for the mark but went hunting the ball instead of covering Murphy's arse.
Their first goal?
It was definetely Markovic right next to Petrenko.

[LostDoggy]

I didn't think Murphy was that bad apart his man kicking a few.
With ball in his hands we were more likely to score going forward than with the other defenders.

[LostDoggy]

I didn't think Murphy was that bad apart his man kicking a few.
With ball in his hands we were more likely to score going forward than with the other defenders.

I thought Murphy was very good but at the same time so was his opponent. I think he kicked a couple from memory and had a hand in others.

[The Coon Dog]

The one where Murphy was third man up and spilt the mark, we had a 4 on 2.

Liberatore was standing beside Petrenko when Murphy went for the mark but went hunting the ball instead of covering Murphy's arse.

Two of Adelaide's first qtr goals came about as a direct result of our defenders not getting the ball clear when spoiling. If you have 2 hands free, mark it, failing that you have to get the ball away from the danger zone.

[F'scary]

Just a suggestion: love the weekly post mortum thread but perhaps a better name for it would be:

The Good, the Bad & the Ugly

[Sockeye Salmon]

Their first goal?
It was definetely Markovic right next to Petrenko.

He wouldn't have been able to keep up with Petrenko but the point is still valid, 3rd man up was the right play from Murphy, he had another player on the ground to cover his arse but the bloke on the ground was ball watching.

[AndrewP6]

Last season it wasn't called this, what was it called?

We had Slaps and Sledges.

[F'scary]

We had Slaps and Sledges.

I like it :)

[immortalmike]

Saints

Griff- He's the only class player we have
Boyd- If you're going to rack them up at least hurt the opposition.
Markovic- If you were Williams this would be a break out game.

Sinners

Murphy- If you play in defence you have an opponent, how about about stopping them from slaughtering us. Two very poor games in a row.

Wood- someone in our jumper, just occasionally. Hargrave, see Wood but with 150 games more experience.

Forward 50 entries- Just look then kick, is it some foreign a concept. Look then kick!!

Ps- Minson- You're just not an AFL player, you try hard but it's rime to move on.

In Murph's defence he is trying to be attacking, it's up to the other defenders like Wood, Shaggy, and Addison to cover his man for him. To say it was a poor game is way over the top, he had plenty of the ball and used it beautifully, something that cannot be said for Griff (DE was 48%) who you praised...

Also while I agree Marko was pretty good if you think that would have been Williams' breakout game you might want to rewatch the Carlton game last year or maybe just all of last year...

[always right]

In Murph's defence he is trying to be attacking, it's up to the other defenders like Wood, Shaggy, and Addison to cover his man for him. To say it was a poor game is way over the top, he had plenty of the ball and used it beautifully, something that cannot be said for Griff (DE was 48%) who you praised...

Also while I agree Marko was pretty good if you think that would have been Williams' breakout game you might want to rewatch the Carlton game last year or maybe just all of last year...

Spot on

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Saints - Griffen. Brilliant game, both inside and outside.
Saints - Cooney. Made some insightful runs and his delivery into forward 50 was telling (unlike most of his teammates.
Saints - Markovic - Made some heroic spoils and tried to initiate some run out of defensive 50.
(Honorable mentions to both ruckmen, who provided much better support to the mids this week when the ball hit the deck. Also Boyd who got less of it but got it in dangerous areas - brilliant 3rd qtr)

Sinners - Wood. Poor disposal under no pressure that coughed up easy ball and gifted the Crows on a couple of ill-timed occasions.
Sinners - Clay Smith. Field kicking is a worry for mine. Really love the way he cracks in but am very nervous when he has the ball in space.
Sinners - Markovic. Undid a lot of his great work with some panickly errors. Gave away free kicks when we had a numerical advantage down back. Messy disposals and missed tackles in defensive 50 that gave Adelaide some undeserved scorboard pressure.
A bit tough on Markovic whose game was 200% on the previous week. Under extreme pressure all night, I felt it was one of his better games with the club. BMC's ringing endorsement of him during the week would have been a confidence booster.

[Greystache]

In Murph's defence he is trying to be attacking, it's up to the other defenders like Wood, Shaggy, and Addison to cover his man for him. To say it was a poor game is way over the top, he had plenty of the ball and used it beautifully, something that cannot be said for Griff (DE was 48%) who you praised...

Also while I agree Marko was pretty good if you think that would have been Williams' breakout game you might want to rewatch the Carlton game last year or maybe just all of last year...

If he's not the 7th defender he has an opponent, should Wood or Addison take two opponents at the same time?

Please, Williams played on Waite who was on one leg, went off at halftime, and didn't play again that year. That's how low our expectations of him are, that is his highlight reel. I'll say it again, the praise heaped on Williams and the scorn poured on Markovic are beyond ridiculous for what are almost identical outputs.

[Sedat]

A bit tough on Markovic whose game was 200% on the previous week. Under extreme pressure all night, I felt it was one of his better games with the club. BMC's ringing endorsement of him during the week would have been a confidence booster.
I loved many aspects of his game this week (particularly after qtr time). He smashed in and killed several contests (something he failed to do last week against Kennedy), and he also tried to initiate some run and carry which was very pleasing to see. However, his first qtr was ultimately very costly. He should have smashed Petrenko into the dirt instead of let him slip through the tackle. He conceded a dumb free to Walker when we had the numerical advantage at the aerial duel. He also fumbled and missed targets under no pressure by hand a couple of times, one of which was costly on the scoreboard. Adelaide got the jump on us early on and ultimately forced us to play catch-up most of the night, and to be honest I don't think Adelaide deserved to be 3 goals up at qtr time on general play. That is why I had him as both a saint and a sinner this week.

I like Markovic. He clearly values the opportunity he has been given and has worked extremely hard to become a better player at AFL level. It doen't mean that he should be given a free pass for missed tackles, unnecessary frees against or sloppy disposal under no pressure.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Saints - Griffen. Brilliant game, both inside and outside.
Saints - Cooney. Made some insightful runs and his delivery into forward 50 was telling (unlike most of his teammates.
Saints - Markovic - Made some heroic spoils and tried to initiate some run out of defensive 50.
(Honorable mentions to both ruckmen, who provided much better support to the mids this week when the ball hit the deck. Also Boyd who got less of it but got it in dangerous areas - brilliant 3rd qtr)

Sinners - Wood. Poor disposal under no pressure that coughed up easy ball and gifted the Crows on a couple of ill-timed occasions.
Sinners - Clay Smith. Field kicking is a worry for mine. Really love the way he cracks in but am very nervous when he has the ball in space.
Sinners - Markovic. Undid a lot of his great work with some panickly errors. Gave away free kicks when we had a numerical advantage down back. Messy disposals and missed tackles in defensive 50 that gave Adelaide some undeserved scorboard pressure.

I wonder whether Wood has the right attributes to play in defence. He has now had two poor games. The defence has been greatly weakened with the losses of Morris and Williams and throw in Harbrow previously. Easton Wood's style of play might be better suited to a wing position where his dash could be used to greater effect. Higgins could be used effectively at half back due to his superior skills and reading of the play, where he did perform well last year.

[bornadog]

I wonder whether Wood has the right attributes to play in defence. He has now had two poor games. The defence has been greatly weakened with the losses of Morris and Williams and throw in Harbrow previously. Easton Wood's style of play might be better suited to a wing position where his dash could be used to greater effect. Higgins could be used effectively at half back due to his superior skills and reading of the play, where he did perform well last year.

Wood is playing the same was he did last year, but a few posters saw him run and bounce the ball a couple of times and never analysed his whole game and therefore there was no criticism.

I agree perhaps a wing position would be better, or even try him up forward?

[Ozza]

Saints:

Cooney - good to see him in some good passages, breaking away from stoppages and being pretty creative.
Griffen/Dahlhaus/Murphy - with no real forward set up and numbers back, run and carry was really important - and these guys broke the lines.
Grant - from what we were able to see on TV - was chasing very hard, going hard at the footy, and making good decisions when he had the ball. Much improved approach to the game.

Special mention to Roughy - who wasn't great - but I potted him last week, and he was noticeably more physical this week.

Sinners:

Minson - couldn't catch a cold.
Wood - can't execute a handball.

[Rance Fan]

Last season it wasn't called this, what was it called?

Good. Bad ugly?

[LostDoggy]

Saint: Morris -- The greatest compliment I can think of is that his absence simply makes his value more apparent by the week. If he was on the park the loss against WCE would have been around the 20 point mark and we would have won our first game on the weekend.

Sinner: Bulldogs front office -- if WCE are a contender and Adelaide are top 4 hopefuls, then we are not far away at all (essentially one quality forward and a year or two of development for Jones away from having a quality forwardline to complement our other, reasonably functioning lines), and losing both Harbrow and Ward, who would both have been handy over the last two weeks, covered a lot of the deficiencies in quality that we're seeing, and are both still young enough to be part of our next flag tilt, was the biggest f-up of our last 20 years of chasing this elusive premiership. Losing both of those guys has had a massive knock-on effect on our list management. Even drafting Smith this year to cover for the loss of Ward has meant that we couldn't go after a quality young forward in the first round, and our forwardline woes continue to haunt us weekly. At this rate, unless we land an absolute gun forward this year with one of our special first two picks, we won't have a developed forwardline by the time we're ready to attack a premiership -- may have to trade in a couple of semi-established types in 2014 or 15 to compensate (probably from GC or GWS's surplus stock).

[immortalmike]

If he's not the 7th defender he has an opponent, should Wood or Addison take two opponents at the same time?

Please, Williams played on Waite who was on one leg, went off at halftime, and didn't play again that year. That's how low our expectations of him are, that is his highlight reel. I'll say it again, the praise heaped on Williams and the scorn poured on Markovic are beyond ridiculous for what are almost identical outputs.

So nobody is chasing Murphy when he attacks? A good defence/team covers for each other..

I'm not going to bother arguing for either Markovic or Williams as I actually like both of them as players, suffice to say that I think your denigration of Williams is too reactionary and not based entirely on reality. But I guess that is just a difference of opinion.

[SlimPickens]

Saints-

Boydy- Bounced back really well from last weeks disposal efforts.
Dahl- Just keeps on going
Grant- Defensive efforts were excellent and contributed very well.
Marco- Top effort, worked his butt off.

Sinners-
Wood- Disposal was terrible once again.
Shaggy- Ball use
Minson- Needs to have a greater impact

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Hargrave had a terrific pre-season, but has been terrible in his first two weeks. Especially last week v Adelaide.

Having both Shaggy and Wood peforming poorly has placed a LOT of pressure on Murphy.

[Go_Dogs]

Hargrave had a terrific pre-season, but has been terrible in his first two weeks. Especially last week v Adelaide.

Having both Shaggy and Wood peforming poorly has placed a LOT of pressure on Murphy.

Agreed. It's a big concern given Hargrave and Murphy are both getting on, and Wood the heir apparent still has a question mark over his ability to play the role. Hargrave's form is a concern, and given he's a senior player he simply must do better. Hopefully as he gets more game time he can readjust, but it appears the same areas of his game which have always been there are still his major issue. One I'm not convinced he can overcome.

[F'scary]

...losing both Harbrow and Ward, who would both have been handy over the last two weeks, covered a lot of the deficiencies in quality that we're seeing, and are both still young enough to be part of our next flag tilt, was the biggest f-up of our last 20 years of chasing this elusive premiership. Losing both of those guys has had a massive knock-on effect on our list management. Even drafting Smith this year to cover for the loss of Ward has meant that we couldn't go after a quality young forward in the first round, and our forwardline woes continue to haunt us weekly. At this rate, unless we land an absolute gun forward this year with one of our special first two picks, we won't have a developed forwardline by the time we're ready to attack a premiership -- may have to trade in a couple of semi-established types in 2014 or 15 to compensate (probably from GC or GWS's surplus stock).

Great insight. I, like everyone else here, was totally ticked off by the poaching of these two young top quality players but I had not thought about the effect of their loss from this perspective.