The loss we needed

[Topdog]

To get people to realise that we really are a long long way off and need an overhaul and not a "refresh".

It is going to be a very painful 2-3 years.

[LostDoggy]

It will be a painful 12 months but i can see massive upside in the list after that. I'm expecting a bottom 6 finish this year and pushing for finals as early as next year

[Eastdog]

We are well and truly come crashing down from where we were near the top a couple of years ago. We are now in a rebuilding phase and once again it is going to take time until we challenge. One thing we have struggled for a long time is getting KPP.

[Evel]

To get people to realise that we really are a long long way off and need an overhaul and not a "refresh".

It is going to be a very painful 2-3 years.

I agree that we do need to rejuvenate the team and find that next generation of players. Realistically we are probably a couple of drafts (with some likely early placed picks) away from getting these players.

To me the loss tonight was no different to the first two rounds in making me realize this. Round 1 in 2011 was the game where it hit home to me the current list was spent and needed a rebuild (or refresh or overhaul take your pick).

[AndrewP6]

No disrespect Topdog, but I sure as hell didn't need a demoralizing, humiliating loss like that. I've been pessimistic about this year since last year, now I know why. IMO we won't play finals for at least two years.

[jeemak]

I'm pretty disappointed with tonight's loss.

We were horrible, nothing more and nothing less. In just about every area of the game we let ourselves down and didn't account for ourselves like a professional football team should.

Make no mistake, tonight's effort was substandard and cheap. I have known for a while that we'd be lucky to break out of the bottom four to six teams, though I didn't think we'd disgrace ourselves so comprehesively against very ordinary opposition.

Beyond that, I'm speachless. I'll digest the game over the next 48 hours, though right now I'm feeling about as low as I've felt about our club and our side.

[westdog54]

I shook my head in disgust when David Smorgon said that the club needed a 'refresh' last year.

A club that falls from a preliminary final to 11th in the space of 12 months needs a hell of a lot more than a refresh. We've got an untried coach, an unbalanced list that chronically lacks pace, a slow as treacle midfield, a forward line in disarray and a 21 year old key forward who is getting double/triple teamed by opposition.

We're years off being a challenger again.

[Go_Dogs]

We were woeful last night, but nothing is ever as bad as it seems. No doubt we need a lot of improvement to become a genuine contender again, but at least we have a number of good young players coming through already. Some early draft picks this year and an astute trade or 2 and we could bounce back quickly.

We really need to accelerate the development of some younger players on our list, and IMO we simply must find game time for Wallis, Tutt and Howard once their back from injury, Panos and Vezspremi should also be given an opportunity to show what they can do in the not too distant future (form permitting).

Ryan Hargrave has been a fantastic player for the Dogs for a number of years, but some of his decision making under pressure was terrible. It's beyond rabbit in the headlights stuff. He's not going to improve, he's not going to be a part of our next crack, and what is he really adding at the moment anyway?

Shaun Higgins really needs to find a role for modern footy. At the moment he's a slow midfielder/forward who doesn't win many clearances, doesn't spread well and isn't kicking many goals. I'm not sure where we'll get value out of him but perhaps he needs to go back and dominate a few weeks at VFL level to get some confidence?

I'm not sure playing all of Minson, Roughead and Cordy worked very well last night - but we need to find another tall forward who can help out Jones. We need to get better at giving our young forwards a chance to break even in the contest too. Not sure if we persist or if a change needs to happen - but again, we need to continue to get games into Roughead and Cordy.

Our commitment to the contest over the first 2 rounds perhaps papered over the cracks, or perhaps we just had a very off night, but anyway there is a lot of work to do and hopefully we can see improvement over the course of the season.

[w3design]

Jeemak said it perfectly for me. I didn't have high expectations and saw this year as one where there would be a bit of pain. What I didn't expect was complete ineptitude and such a rapid stark decline from our senior core. Gia, Shaggy, Cross, Lake, Cooney are shadows of themselves. Minson and Higgins will never live up to the potential we once saw in them. What bothers me more is the uncertain quality of the kids below. Cordy is raw, roughead inconsistent, Mitch wallis, well still not sure, Howard and Tutt just not enough game time and continuity yet..but while some may make it (as in being 50-100 game players) I don't see a superstar among them. and I don't see the nucleus in terms of structure and gelling together to feel like, here is our next finals group.

It feels like we have skipped a footy generation.

[1eyedog]

The positive thing out of last night was that we have played more kids than the Aints over the past 2 years. They won't play in a Grand Final this year and will be 1-2 years behind us in development.

[The Underdog]

Look, I don't think any team needs a loss like that and I sure as hell was hoping for all of those who thought we'd be a top 8 team that we'd show something this year (and at times we have), but I predicted we'd be a bottom 5 team this year and there is pretty clear signs that that is about where we belong.
Losses like this have no positives as far as I can see, although given our draft pick situation, a bad year might have a decent roll on effect as far as getting young talent into the club.
We're pretty much what a lot of people thought we were before the season, if not worse. The list needs serious work and teams who can rebound and move the ball quickly are going to destroy us.

[LostDoggy]

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/3607/sadbulldog.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/sadbulldog.jpg/)



.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Really disappointed in the Club, I have not heard of any player, coach or committee member com out and bleed about the loss.

I would have thought publicly they would have come out and spoken like the Melbourne coach and put som heat on he players. I know in this day and age we are all sensitive and like the warm and fuzzy stuff, but for christ sake dogs harden up..

I asked Brendon last night (over the boundary line). What it was like to coach the Greater Western Bulldogs?

In which Fanta gave me a dirty look, well I make no excuses for the coaching staff and Fanta got his job on the back of Rocket and a Werribee issue. Now that's gone and so should Fanta. Save his wage and put a spin doctor on the staff as we are going to need one to ensure that the committee that recommended Brendon and he new coaching staff are the way forward.

The pin doctor old also start on the recurtment guys as well that saw he need o build he list that has no backbone or hunger for today's AFL.

[Sedat]

I'm pretty disappointed with tonight's loss.

We were horrible, nothing more and nothing less. In just about every area of the game we let ourselves down.Actually our contested ball numbers were on a par with St Kilda, we beat them in the clearances and we also beat them in the inside 50 count. And no I'm not searching for positives - these indicators make last night's result even more unpalatable. Either our 'manly' gameplan is horribly flawed, or our personnel are utterly incapable of carrying out the gameplan against any team semi-decent team.

[LostDoggy]

Three things that stood out for me.

1. Too slow to move ball from defence
2. One paced midfield.
3. Sainters have improved their speed and when clear moved the ball quickly to their 3 "power" forwards that stretched our undersized defence.

I dont think that I can see any KPP coming out of the big guys we drafted last year. After watching Willy yesterday, it appears that most of the taller players are ruckman size. Dont know if any of those guys will make a genuine KPP.

[bornadog]

Really disappointed in the Club, I have not heard of any player, coach or committee member com out and bleed about the loss.

I would have thought publicly they would have come out and spoken like the Melbourne coach and put som heat on he players. I know in this day and age we are all sensitive and like the warm and fuzzy stuff, but for christ sake dogs harden up..

I asked Brendon last night (over the boundary line). What it was like to coach the Greater Western Bulldogs?

In which Fanta gave me a dirty look, well I make no excuses for the coaching staff and Fanta got his job on the back of Rocket and a Werribee issue. Now that's gone and so should Fanta. Save his wage and put a spin doctor on the staff as we are going to need one to ensure that the committee that recommended Brendon and he new coaching staff are the way forward.

The pin doctor old also start on the recurtment guys as well that saw he need o build he list that has no backbone or hunger for today's AFL.

This^^^^

[always right]

Really disappointed in the Club, I have not heard of any player, coach or committee member com out and bleed about the loss.

I would have thought publicly they would have come out and spoken like the Melbourne coach and put som heat on he players. I know in this day and age we are all sensitive and like the warm and fuzzy stuff, but for christ sake dogs harden up..

I asked Brendon last night (over the boundary line). What it was like to coach the Greater Western Bulldogs?

In which Fanta gave me a dirty look, well I make no excuses for the coaching staff and Fanta got his job on the back of Rocket and a Werribee issue. Now that's gone and so should Fanta. Save his wage and put a spin doctor on the staff a:rolleyes:
s we are going to need one to ensure that the committee that recommended Brendon and he new coaching staff are the way forward.

The pin doctor old also start on the recurtment guys as well that saw he need o build he list that has no backbone or hunger for today's AFL.

You must have been so proud of yourself. I love sitting near supporters like you

[bornadog]

Actually our contested ball numbers were on a par with St Kilda, we beat them in the clearances and we also beat them in the inside 50 count. And no I'm not searching for positives - these indicators make last night's result even more unpalatable. Either our 'manly' gameplan is horribly flawed, or our personnel are utterly incapable of carrying out the gameplan against any team semi-decent team.

The trouble is we are doing this each week, but its no use getting the ball more times than the opposition if you just give it straight back to them. I don't think its the gameplan, I think we have lots of dumb footballers who can't cope under pressure.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Being able to hit the broad side of a barn by foot would help immensely

[Ghost Dog]

I shook my head in disgust when David Smorgon said that the club needed a 'refresh' last year.

A club that falls from a preliminary final to 11th in the space of 12 months needs a hell of a lot more than a refresh. We've got an untried coach, an unbalanced list that chronically lacks pace, a slow as treacle midfield, a forward line in disarray and a 21 year old key forward who is getting double/triple teamed by opposition.

We're years off being a challenger again.

If I hadn't seen the team up close myself in the pre-season I would agree. But I think we can be very competitive and hope tonight was an anomaly.

[AndrewP6]

If I hadn't seen the team up close myself in the pre-season I would agree. But I think we can be very competitive and hope tonight was an anomaly.

I reckon we're at least a couple of years off finals

[F'scary]

Before the season I got bagged a bit for suggesting we should have recruited a used power forward (Oh'ailpin who got picked up by GWS at pick 75 was my choice). I recanted after considering the list cloggers arguments that were put to me.

Now I'm not so sure again.

In the first 3 games we were right in there for the contested stuff, the inside 50's and a few other stats that indicate we have some of the basics right.

In the first 3 games, it seemed that our defence held up until the errors upfield eventually meant the seige gates had to give.

IMO, we need to sort out the forward line pretty soon or its Greater Western Bulldogs for 2012 (hat tip to whoever it was who came up with the GWB line, its a corker).

Suggestions:

1. We can't afford to have a resting ruckman in the FF line. Our guys just pose no threat, worse, they are a dead weight on the FF line: Minson is known to be terrible as forward - he is extremely weak in contested marking situations, overhead marking in general and can't even take a mark on a fast lead, including a chest mark. The first 3 games indicate Roughead is only going to the FF line for a rest, exactly that. There is only room for one of our ruckmen in the side and that is going to have to be on-the-ball for the whole game. This can be done by having him play a kick behind the play and not having to ruck in the forward line.
To keep ruckman fresh we should be rotating Minson, Roughead & Cordy THROUGH THE RESERVES. There ain't room for 3 of them in the side, let alone 2.

2. Jones cannot be the only forward focal point. He needs to be freed up from doubling teaming. One way would be to have him doing the forward line ruck work like last year. It will get him into the game - he is still building confidence and needs interaction, not isolation.

3. Put Lake to full-forward. Another suggestion I made pre-season that was pooh-poohed but now looks to me like something that has to be explored given the first 3 rounds. Alternatively, use the Gilbee long-term injury to promote Campbell and play him as a permanent full-forward. Apparently he is a far superior overhead mark to Minson, Roughead & Cordy.

4. Higgins needs to find form in the 2's or try again as a rebounding half-back.

5. Murphy to half-forward again (yet another of my suggestions that was roundly pissed on but now doesn't look so bad given the first 3 matches). Other sides have now got a tactic for Murphy as a half-back - make him play very close to goal against a major goal avenue. Give Higgins a go perhaps to free Murph up for the forward line.

6. Jarryd Grant just has to be put into a simple lead-up-from deep (FF/FP) role and told that that is what he has to do: lead, lead, lead. Up & double back. One side of the ground to the other. If he's not got form, back to the reserves and try Panos, who I understand is a lead up forward too.

7. Dalhaus to be allowed to play closer to goal. The poor guy at the moment looks as if he is trying to cover every deficiency in the team. Just waiting for him to have to go up in the ruck.

8. Try Veszpremi as a small forward again. That appears to be his specialty.

[DOG GOD]

I'd say more than a few years Andrew...gws will go past us in the next 2 years I have no doubt.

[LostDoggy]

I think this can turn around quickly once some of the younger guys can win there positions. The fact that not one forward has actually beaten an opponent consistently all year says volumes. Confidence is a funny thing and as a mid or back looking up and expected to kick to a bloke that you know will most likely be beaten must lower your confidence. Just need some kids to start winning there positions and this will give others more confidence in delivering the pill to them. The amount of times players are kicking to Dahlhaus instead of long to a tall is way to much for my liking. Unfortunately it takes games and times for young players to get up to speed. This season not the loss is the one we needed to have.

[AndrewP6]

I'd say more than a few years Andrew...gws will go past us in the next 2 years I have no doubt.

I was trying to be positive ;)

[jazzadogs]

Before the season I got bagged a bit for suggesting we should have recruited a used power forward (Oh'ailpin who got picked up by GWS at pick 75 was my choice). I recanted after considering the list cloggers arguments that were put to me.

Now I'm not so sure again.

In the first 3 games we were right in there for the contested stuff, the inside 50's and a few other stats that indicate we have some of the basics right.

In the first 3 games, it seemed that our defence held up until the errors upfield eventually meant the seige gates had to give.

IMO, we need to sort out the forward line pretty soon or its Greater Western Bulldogs for 2012 (hat tip to whoever it was who came up with the GWB line, its a corker).

Suggestions:

1. We can't afford to have a resting ruckman in the FF line. Our guys just pose no threat, worse, they are a dead weight on the FF line: Minson is known to be terrible as forward - he is extremely weak in contested marking situations, overhead marking in general and can't even take a mark on a fast lead, including a chest mark. The first 3 games indicate Roughead is only going to the FF line for a rest, exactly that. There is only room for one of our ruckmen in the side and that is going to have to be on-the-ball for the whole game. This can be done by having him play a kick behind the play and not having to ruck in the forward line.
To keep ruckman fresh we should be rotating Minson, Roughead & Cordy THROUGH THE RESERVES. There ain't room for 3 of them in the side, let alone 2.

2. Jones cannot be the only forward focal point. He needs to be freed up from doubling teaming. One way would be to have him doing the forward line ruck work like last year. It will get him into the game - he is still building confidence and needs interaction, not isolation.

3. Put Lake to full-forward. Another suggestion I made pre-season that was pooh-poohed but now looks to me like something that has to be explored given the first 3 rounds. Alternatively, use the Gilbee long-term injury to promote Campbell and play him as a permanent full-forward. Apparently he is a far superior overhead mark to Minson, Roughead & Cordy.

4. Higgins needs to find form in the 2's or try again as a rebounding half-back.

5. Murphy to half-forward again (yet another of my suggestions that was roundly pissed on but now doesn't look so bad given the first 3 matches). Other sides have now got a tactic for Murphy as a half-back - make him play very close to goal against a major goal avenue. Give Higgins a go perhaps to free Murph up for the forward line.

6. Jarryd Grant just has to be put into a simple lead-up-from deep (FF/FP) role and told that that is what he has to do: lead, lead, lead. Up & double back. One side of the ground to the other. If he's not got form, back to the reserves and try Panos, who I understand is a lead up forward too.

7. Dalhaus to be allowed to play closer to goal. The poor guy at the moment looks as if he is trying to cover every deficiency in the team. Just waiting for him to have to go up in the ruck.

8. Try Veszpremi as a small forward again. That appears to be his specialty.

Still don't think that drafting a O'Hailpin type would have been the right move. As much as Jones is being regularly beaten, we need him to learn how to be the number 1 forward, where to run etc (reading the play and running to the right spots is still his biggest issue IMO).

1) Minson, Rough, Cordy do not have the ability to play a full game in the ruck, need to have two with one resting forward. Campbell could be in with a shot soon enough, and has shown he has a significant presence in the forward line.

2) Don't want Jones to be the only forward target, which is why we need the resting ruckman playing forward. Or Grant to pull his finger out. Also need to use the mid-sized forwards on the lead more often.

3) Lake can't leave the backline. With Morris and Williams out, it's too much to just leave to Markovic. Austin had a good game last week, will be interesting to see if he or Campbell get promoted. Could promote Campbell, play him forward and get Cordy to take Lake's spot (seeing as Lake will most likely be suspended).

4) Not sure what to do with Higgins. Still not our worst, but he does need to improve.

5) Murphy's position is a real conundrem. He is extremely important to us off half-back, and I'm not sure Higgins or anyone else would be able to match his output. However the half-forward line is where we are falling down quite often now, so maybe he would be best there? Tough one for the coaches...I expect him to stay in the backline.

6) Grant has completely stagnated, I like the idea of just playing him out of the goal square but I don't know if he has the commitment to actually perform that role. We all know that he has talent, but I'd love for someone to explain why he doesn't show it.

7) Dahlhaus is too important through the middle as a run and carry player. Like Murphy, it's almost a case of needing two of him. We need a crumbing goalsneak, but we also need speed through the midfield. Hopefully Sherman can come in this week and fill one of those roles.

8) Macca seems to be committed to Vez as a rebounding defender...Dickson, Sherman would be next in line for a small forward role.

[MrMahatma]

We're St Kilda's bitches. Nothing more, nothing less. As soon as the draw is announced each year, those blokes must check to see if they're fortunate enough to get a free 8 points by playing us twice.

No way in hell would they take us seriously as a footy club.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

A few worries:

* As I have been saying for 2 years, Cross is finished. He offers us very little, aside from some desperation acts. Reality is, you can get that from any half decent player and much more. He's got to be the slowest player in the AFL, with terrible skills by foot and hand and VERY average decision making skills. I just can't understand why we would grant him a 2 year contract. Frustrates me no end. Been a solid player for the club, but he's done.

* Hargrave looks like he's 40. His decision making has always been a little questionable, but it's got worse in the first three rounds. Moreover, he's not defending well and he looks to have slowed down physically and mentally a few cogs. I think it's very likely to be his last year, which is unfortunate. He was a good player.

* Higgins. What more needs to be said? You can try to justify his selection by saying he "played okay" but that isn't why he's in the side. He's been in the system for 6 or so years and should be a 'leader'. He's not a midfielder because he doesn't win his own ball and he can't break away into space. He's no longer a forward because he can't get separation on the lead and isn't a natural crumber. He rarely gets into the right spots, he doesn't take marks anymore and most of all -- he doesn't kick goals.

Not saying either of these 3 should be dropped, but they all offer us nothing right now. In the case of Higgins, it's tragically disappointing.

[F'scary]

Still don't think that drafting a O'Hailpin type would have been the right move. As much as Jones is being regularly beaten, we need him to learn how to be the number 1 forward, where to run etc (reading the play and running to the right spots is still his biggest issue IMO).

1) Minson, Rough, Cordy do not have the ability to play a full game in the ruck, need to have two with one resting forward. Campbell could be in with a shot soon enough, and has shown he has a significant presence in the forward line.

2) Don't want Jones to be the only forward target, which is why we need the resting ruckman playing forward. Or Grant to pull his finger out. Also need to use the mid-sized forwards on the lead more often.

3) Lake can't leave the backline. With Morris and Williams out, it's too much to just leave to Markovic. Austin had a good game last week, will be interesting to see if he or Campbell get promoted. Could promote Campbell, play him forward and get Cordy to take Lake's spot (seeing as Lake will most likely be suspended).

4) Not sure what to do with Higgins. Still not our worst, but he does need to improve.

5) Murphy's position is a real conundrem. He is extremely important to us off half-back, and I'm not sure Higgins or anyone else would be able to match his output. However the half-forward line is where we are falling down quite often now, so maybe he would be best there? Tough one for the coaches...I expect him to stay in the backline.

6) Grant has completely stagnated, I like the idea of just playing him out of the goal square but I don't know if he has the commitment to actually perform that role. We all know that he has talent, but I'd love for someone to explain why he doesn't show it.

7) Dahlhaus is too important through the middle as a run and carry player. Like Murphy, it's almost a case of needing two of him. We need a crumbing goalsneak, but we also need speed through the midfield. Hopefully Sherman can come in this week and fill one of those roles.

8) Macca seems to be committed to Vez as a rebounding defender...Dickson, Sherman would be next in line for a small forward role.

Obviously we are in disagreement on all but a couple of points but I'm still working through the issues and enjoy other poster's thoughts. One reflection on the first 3 rounds that I have just had is that Macca has sacrificed forward structure for more men around the ball and in our defensive half. I think he is going to have to re-examine this and opt to take a few more risks with keeping some structure forward of the ball.

anyway cheers, I better go mow the lawn

regards:cool:

[The Bulldogs Bite]

One reflection on the first 3 rounds that I have just had is that Macca has sacrificed forward structure for more men around the ball and in our defensive half. I think he is going to have to re-examine this and opt to take a few more risks with keeping some structure forward of the ball.


This is one thing I absolutely hate seeing. Eade did it at times too, and it simply kills us every time.

Unless you have a Buddy Franklin or a Travis Cloke deep forward, you're shooting yourself in the foot by out-numbering yourself in your own forward line. Particularly when you've got poor decision makers and poor disposal players in your side.

[AndrewP6]

We're St Kilda's bitches. Nothing more, nothing less. As soon as the draw is announced each year, those blokes must check to see if they're fortunate enough to get a free 8 points by playing us twice.

No way in hell would they take us seriously as a footy club.


Don't think many would at the moment.

[LostDoggy]

This is one thing I absolutely hate seeing. Eade did it at times too, and it simply kills us every time.

Maybe when we were a better skilled side, able to hit targets and moved the ball quicker, it was more viable option. We ain't that side anymore.
Also for 2 seasons under Eade we have Hall who copped better 2 on 1 than younger players would.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Maybe when we were a better skilled side, able to hit targets and moved the ball quicker, it was more viable option. We ain't that side anymore.
Also for 2 seasons under Eade we have Hall who copped better 2 on 1 than younger players would.

Definitely, but we did it in 2010 and 2011 when our skills were ordinary too.

A lot of sides find themselves in similar positions (IE. Melbourne) and I cannot understand why we (and they) persist with it.

Nothing worse than seeing Jones and alike constantly out-numbered in the air and on the ground.

[LostDoggy]

Definitely, but we did it in 2010 and 2011 when our skills were ordinary too.

A lot of sides find themselves in similar positions (IE. Melbourne) and I cannot understand why we (and they) persist with it.

Nothing worse than seeing Jones and alike constantly out-numbered in the air and on the ground.

We might play 1 short up forward sometimes but being out numbered has more to do with slow and poor delivery than anything. Jones isn't standing still.

We persist with it cos we turn it over so much inmidfield, we need to stem the tide some how.

[LostDoggy]

8. Try Veszpremi as a small forward again. That appears to be his specialty.

More to the point, how about giving him a game. He was good down back in a couple of pre-season games and Hargrave and Wood arent exactly tearing the house down!

[FrediKanoute]

The positive thing out of last night was that we have played more kids than the Aints over the past 2 years. They won't play in a Grand Final this year and will be 1-2 years behind us in development.

Really? Their kids did ok last night. Armitage, Geary, McEvoy all had an impact last night. Ours (Dahlhaus aside) were passengers. What we are lacking is to see our boys take the game by the scruff of the neck. What we need are the young guys to realise that their time is now and they should step up and take that opportunity.

[bornadog]

A few worries:
Cross is finished. He's got to be the slowest player in the AFL, with terrible skills by foot and hand

I agree he is the slow, but his skills with foot and hand are very good and hits targets with a disposal efficiency of over 70% every week. A few years back at his peak it was 80% plus.

[FrediKanoute]

Still don't think that drafting a O'Hailpin type would have been the right move. As much as Jones is being regularly beaten, we need him to learn how to be the number 1 forward, where to run etc (reading the play and running to the right spots is still his biggest issue IMO).

If we keep playing Jones he way we do we will ruin him as a footballer. We will sap all his confidence and more than likely he will get injured. We need a big bodied guy in the forward line to draw away some of the attention from Jones.

[Ghost Dog]

If we keep playing Jones he way we do we will ruin him as a footballer. We will sap all his confidence and more than likely he will get injured. We need a big bodied guy in the forward line to draw away some of the attention from Jones.

Brad Johnson said something similar last year when Barry was out for a bit.

[Ghost Dog]

I'd say more than a few years Andrew...gws will go past us in the next 2 years I have no doubt.

Well watching GC last night I'm not that confident we can beat them either.

[G-Mo77]

What infuriated me last year and what I saw last night is no pride. Too often losses like this mount up and our boys and coaching staff just seem to take it and not give a stuff how deplorable performances like that hurt this club off the field. On that game alone we probably lost around 500 member sign ups and take another 1000 from the current members off the total in 2013. I don't care how young our list is we are better than that, play with some bloody heart!!!

[Ghost Dog]

What infuriated me last year and what I saw last night is no pride. Too often losses like this mount up and our boys and coaching staff just seem to take it and not give a stuff how deplorable performances like that hurt this club off the field. On that game alone we probably lost around 500 member sign ups and take another 1000 from the current members off the total in 2013. I don't care how young our list is we are better than that, play with some bloody heart!!!

How do you fix something like that? It takes time.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I agree he is the slow, but his skills with foot and hand are very good and hits targets with a disposal efficiency of over 70% every week. A few years back at his peak it was 80% plus.

Half of them put the receiver under immense pressure though, so even though they hit the target, they are stupid handballs over the head or to players running past with an opponent under their collar. Alternatively, he stops, props, goes left, right, then distributes the ball as the opposition have closed off his options.

I just don't see how Cross is damaging to anyone but us.

[G-Mo77]

How do you fix something like that? It takes time.

How long do they want? It's not something we lost this season.

[Ghost Dog]

How long do they want? It's not something we lost this season.


How do you suggest fixing what you see as being a problem at the heart of the club's culture?( if there is one )

[Greystache]

Half of them put the receiver under immense pressure though, so even though they hit the target, they are stupid handballs over the head or to players running past with an opponent under their collar. Alternatively, he stops, props, goes left, right, then distributes the ball as the opposition have closed off his options.

I just don't see how Cross is damaging to anyone but us.

Agree. Wallis is his heir apparent, we can't play them both in the same team, it's worth making the swap.

[G-Mo77]

How do you suggest fixing what you see as being a problem at the heart of the club's culture?( if there is one )

No idea. :confused:

Maybe its to do with the lack of success at the club?

[comrade]

Agree. Wallis is his heir apparent, we can't play them both in the same team, it's worth making the swap.

I think Cross is being sold a little short here.

I find myself getting frustrated during a game when Crossy gets on the end of a chain of possessions and then proceeds to stop and prop but he just works so much harder than most of his teammates to provide an option. It's an indictment on his teammates that he's constantly exposed in open play.

He's never going to change and every team needs hard working grunts to start the possession chain and feed it to the prime movers but Cross (and Boyd) is forced to be both the grunt and the polish due to a lack of (willing?) personnel.

Plus, we've got him for the rest of this season and the next on what I assume must be pretty good coin. For a small enterprise, it would be a shocking waste of money to have it languishing in the reserves.

[Greystache]

I think Cross is being sold a little short here.

I find myself getting frustrated during a game when Crossy gets on the end of a chain of possessions and then proceeds to stop and prop but he just works so much harder than most of his teammates to provide an option. It's an indictment on his teammates that he's constantly exposed in open play.

He's never going to change and every team needs hard working grunts to start the possession chain and feed it to the prime movers but Cross (and Boyd) is forced to be both the grunt and the polish due to a lack of (willing?) personnel.

Plus, we've got him for the rest of this season and the next on what I assume must be pretty good coin. For a small enterprise, it would be a shocking waste of money to have it languishing in the reserves.

I don't disagree with any of that, but eventually we have to look to the future.

The likelihood is we'll be cellar dwellers for the next 2 years, after that Cross will be gone. I think it's time to bite the bullet and start building for the future, play Wallis instead, we won't lose so much in the changeover, we're going to be losing anyway, plus we may develop a player who could play the role for another 10 years, and possibly do it better.

I said at the time 2 years for Cross was stupid, no other club was going to snatch him off us, and when his time comes it's always going to come quickly.

As a side note I think Boyd should be tagging and tagging only, but I can't see it happening.

[G-Mo77]

As a side note I think Boyd should be tagging and tagging only, but I can't see it happening.

That's something Cross did a few times last year and I recall did a pretty good job at it. Could we use him in that type of role on a more permanent basis?

[Eastdog]

I said on another thread that we should play that famous Ted Whitten Speech to the players to give them something. What I saw last night was pathetic and is not what the Bulldogs are about.

[Greystache]

That's something Cross did a few times last year and I recall did a pretty good job at it. Could we use him in that type of role on a more permanent basis?

Possibly, anything has got to be better than him getting the ball on the outside, and he doesn't win clearances. It would also provide more opportunity for kids to try to become our key ball winners.

[Remi Moses]

I said on another thread that we should play that famous Ted Whitten Speech to the players to give them something. What I saw last night was pathetic and is not what the Bulldogs are about.

That's cheesy gimmicky old school thinking .
I forecast some pain this year and next.
Must Must Must recruit polished types, No more in and under TYPES!!
No more smokey's, bolters, rugby athletes .

[Eastdog]

Possibly, anything has got to be better than him getting the ball on the outside, and he doesn't win clearances. It would also provide more opportunity for kids to try to become our key ball winners.

Boyd got 40 possessions last night but what was his efficiency in his ball use?

[Eastdog]

That's cheesy gimmicky old school thinking .
I forecast some pain this year and next.
Must Must Must recruit polished types, No more in and under TYPES!!
No more smokey's, bolters, rugby athletes .

Maybe that is a bit "old school" and probably won't make a difference. What do you think should be our aims then for the rest of the season.

[Greystache]

Boyd got 40 possessions last night but what was his efficiency in his ball use?

Try this

http://google.com.au

[Mantis]

As a side note I think Boyd should be tagging and tagging only, but I can't see it happening.

Our Gary Ablett tagging.. Not a *!*!*!*!ing chance.

[1eyedog]

Really? Their kids did ok last night. Armitage, Geary, McEvoy all had an impact last night. Ours (Dahlhaus aside) were passengers. What we are lacking is to see our boys take the game by the scruff of the neck. What we need are the young guys to realise that their time is now and they should step up and take that opportunity.

Any teams kids would have looked good against us last night. They came into the game when their guns took control and they grew in confidence because of it. Armitage is not a kid.

[Greystache]

Our Gary Ablett tagging.. Not a *!*!*!*!ing chance.

Indeed.

It's very sad we've reached this point, his disposal numbers go up every season and his impact on games goes down.

[Eastdog]

Any teams kids would have looked good against us last night. They came into the game when their guns took control and they grew in confidence because of it. Armitage is not a kid.

Im sure Macca gave them a grill after the match and hopefully we train well this week and come out a different side next week. Probably being optimistic but that what we all hope for.

[Eastdog]

Indeed.

It's very sad we've reached this point, his disposal numbers go up every season and his impact on games goes down.

From that I'm guessing his disposal efficiency was poor.

[1eyedog]

Half of them put the receiver under immense pressure though, so even though they hit the target, they are stupid handballs over the head or to players running past with an opponent under their collar. Alternatively, he stops, props, goes left, right, then distributes the ball as the opposition have closed off his options.

I just don't see how Cross is damaging to anyone but us.

Cross was far from our worse last night, he took care of Goddard for a good deal of the match, class won out. I can name half a dozen who turned the ball over more than Cross who had just as many disposals.

[1eyedog]

That's cheesy gimmicky old school thinking .
I forecast some pain this year and next.
Must Must Must recruit polished types, No more in and under TYPES!!
No more smokey's, bolters, rugby athletes .

Polished types are often soft. The good ones are flagged early and go to the bottom three teams each year (with the exception of the past two years). We get ones like Howard. We need about 3 Callan Wards and a decent key forward.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Possibly, anything has got to be better than him getting the ball on the outside, and he doesn't win clearances. It would also provide more opportunity for kids to try to become our key ball winners.

I just don't see where Cross fits into AFL footy. He doesn't have the skillset to be an extractor and he is far too slow to play on a wing or as a lockdown player.

What's worse is that I can't see us ever dropping him in favour of a younger player (eg. Wallis).

[SonofScray]

As a side note I think Boyd should be tagging and tagging only, but I can't see it happening.

I think this isn't too far off the mark at all. Some guys will need to go, some roles will need to change. Just no balance in the current midfield mix, both in type and what appears to be roles.

We're almost looking at another proposition like what was put to Libba Snr if he wanted to hang around for Wallaces' stint as coach.

[Eastdog]

I just don't see where Cross fits into AFL footy. He doesn't have the skillset to be an extractor and he is far too slow to play on a wing or as a lockdown player.

What's worse is that I can't see us ever dropping him in favour of a younger player (eg. Wallis).

This is something we should do. That may give Cross something to think about.

[EasternWest]

This is something we should do. That may give Cross something to think about.

Unfair on Cross. If he gets dropped its not because he needs to learn a lesson.

[Eastdog]

Unfair on Cross. If he gets dropped its not because he needs to learn a lesson.

Do you think though that Wallis should get a game? Who would we drop if we keep Cross.

[Remi Moses]

Polished types are often soft. The good ones are flagged early and go to the bottom three teams each year (with the exception of the past two years). We get ones like Howard. We need about 3 Callan Wards and a decent key forward.

Bit early to draw any assumption on Howard's career.
No point getting a contested footy and coughing it up, the turnover is a coach killer.
We actually miss players like the Eagle, with his run spread and wheeling left.
As People have stated we get the contested footy line, but teams still need some quality distribution and speed

[EasternWest]

Do you think though that Wallis should get a game? Who would we drop if we keep Cross.

I saw neither the Dogs nor Willy game so I can't comment on that. Wallis is obviously a player for the future and if Cross makes way so be it.

But I restate: Cross will never be dropped, and nor should he, to "give him something to think about".

[Eastdog]

I saw neither the Dogs nor Willy game so I can't comment on that. Wallis is obviously a player for the future and if Cross makes way so be it.

But I restate: Cross will never be dropped, and nor should he, to "give him something to think about".

I see what your saying EasternWest. It would be like if Boyd played one of his worst games he would not be dropped for the next game because of his position at the club as our captain.

[EasternWest]

I see what your saying EasternWest. It would be like if Boyd played one of his worst games he would not be dropped for the next game because of his position at the club as our captain.

No. That's not what I'm saying at all.

You're suggesting Cross be dropped to teach him something. I'm saying Cross has more than proven his commitment and dedication to our club. His professionalism is second to none and beyond reproach. Why would an example need to be made of him?

If his time is up because he's too slow/old/insert adjective here and it's the best thing for our club, I can accept that. But to suggest he be dropped as some kind of punishment is ludicrous.

[Eastdog]

No. That's not what I'm saying at all.

You're suggesting Cross be dropped to teach him something. I'm saying Cross has more than proven his commitment and dedication to our club. His professionalism is second to none and beyond reproach. Why would an example need to be made of him?

If his time is up because he's too slow/old/insert adjective here and it's the best thing for our club, I can accept that. But to suggest he be dropped as some kind of punishment is ludicrous.

Understand.