McCartney – Caring Dad vs Angry Dad

[PedroArvy]

In days of yore, when a team got thumped like we did last night the coach changed his attitude to that of an angry father about to beat his boys up:

“That was unacceptable, we are going to make changes”
“It's going to be a tough session on the track this week”
“We will not tolerate that type of display”

But when I listened to the McCartney's press conference http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video%20%20audio/tabid/8663/contentid/440152/default.asp (http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video%20%20audio/tabid/8663/contentid/440152/default.aspx) I heard the exact opposite, the caring loving dad:

“There's no point making changes, we have to teach our boys the game”
“The club leaders are going to make a point of talking to the younger players”
“We are going to put time into decision making”

The coaches attitude implies that adding feelings of guilt will not help the team, even if performances were not acceptable. It's interesting how the coaches relationship has changed over the years from the fuming distant father to the new style ever present loving dad.

I thought a point of Boyd's was interesting in the post match. He said:

“We prepare for each game in the same way”

Well if that's the case and the team is worse than last year and seemingly getting worse match by match I see no reason why there would be an arrest to the current decline.

I'd like to see the coach with a bit more of a “you are going to get a boot up the arse” mentality, a bit of bleeding, a bit of passion but perhaps sports psychology theories has passed me by...

[Ghost Dog]

Guess we will have to wait to see what happens- if he can arrest the performance of the group. This is a coach with heaps of experience though.
he also said
"We know you can't serve up a performance like today. "
Fans need to hear that.

[westdog54]

Does what comes out of the press conference make a hell of a lot of difference as far as the club goes?

Mark Neeld came out swing broadsides left, right and centre after what they served up in round 1, and they continue to be an absolute rabble.

It might make some of us feel better listening to that sort of stuff, but if there are going to be boots up the backside let it happen behind closed doors within the club. Parading the players around for fans to bring out the rotting fruit won't make me feel any better.

[AndrewP6]

Does what comes out of the press conference make a hell of a lot of difference as far as the club goes?

Mark Neeld came out swing broadsides left, right and centre after what they served up in round 1, and they continue to be an absolute rabble.

It might make some of us feel better listening to that sort of stuff, but if there are going to be boots up the backside let it happen behind closed doors within the club. Parading the players around for fans to bring out the rotting fruit won't make me feel any better.

Might not directly impact the score line, but it would be nice to see some tangible evidence of commitment, desire, intensity.

[Sedat]

Exactly the right approach by McCartney. By contrast Neeld throws his toys out of the cot after Round 1 - he has nowhere to go after this, even though his team has arguably been even more pathetic in the next two rounds.

[AndrewP6]

Exactly the right approach by McCartney. By contrast Neeld throws his toys out of the cot after Round 1 - he has nowhere to go after this, even though his team has arguably been even more pathetic in the next two rounds.

We're getting worse week by week.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We're getting worse week by week.

How do you figure?

We were OK in round one, better in round two, dreadful in round three.

That reads as inconsistent to me -- not 'getting worse' by the week.

[SonofScray]

“There's no point making changes, we have to teach our boys the game”
“The club leaders are going to make a point of talking to the younger players”



Thats a worry for me. A lot of talk last year was around how poor our leaders are and IMO it hasn't changed at all. Why would anyone want to listen to blokes who repeatedly turn the ball over, cannot kick, play dumb footy, fail under pressure and ultimately have missed their chance?

[westdog54]

Might not directly impact the score line, but it would be nice to see some tangible evidence of commitment, desire, intensity.

But you're not going to get that out of the press room, it can only happen on the field.

[AndrewP6]

But you're not going to get that out of the press room, it can only happen on the field.

Don't agree, you can convey that impression in the way you act away from the field.

[Rocco Jones]

Thats a worry for me. A lot of talk last year was around how poor our leaders are and IMO it hasn't changed at all. Why would anyone want to listen to blokes who repeatedly turn the ball over, cannot kick, play dumb footy, fail under pressure and ultimately have missed their chance?

Perhaps the issue is that they are listening too much!

[always right]

Don't agree, you can convey that impression in the way you act away from the field.

I don't want to see false bravado in a press conference...meaningless. I do however expect blokes to be told some home truths in the club...no reason to think they won't be.

[LostDoggy]

At what point is McCartney allowed to be criticized?
I'm puzzled as to why we look like going backwards with supposedly better personel back.
None of the problems we saw last season look like being solved,in fact we look slower and our skills are becoming worse.

[Ghost Dog]

Exactly the right approach by McCartney. By contrast Neeld throws his toys out of the cot after Round 1 - he has nowhere to go after this, even though his team has arguably been even more pathetic in the next two rounds.

Well put Sedat. I feel the same way.Incidentally, doesn't Neeld have the funniest facial expressions?

[AndrewP6]

I don't want to see false bravado in a press conference...meaningless. I do however expect blokes to be told some home truths in the club...no reason to think they won't be.

The presser should be the same tone as the closed door discussion. I disagree that the words are meaningless, they are indicative of mindset. The way we're going, false bravado would be an improvement.

[GVGjr]

At what point is McCartney allowed to be criticized?
I'm puzzled as to why we look like going backwards with supposedly better personel back.
None of the problems we saw last season look like being solved,in fact we look slower and our skills are becoming worse.

It will take time for him to change things at the club and we need to be patient. As long as he makes changes at the selection table and learns by his mistakes I think we have to cut him some slack. Like it or not he inherited some problems that will take time to fix.

A step back to eventually move two forward isn't an unreasonable outcome

[AndrewP6]

At what point is McCartney allowed to be criticized?
I'm puzzled as to why we look like going backwards with supposedly better personel back.
None of the problems we saw last season look like being solved,in fact we look slower and our skills are becoming worse.

Hear hear.

[AndrewP6]

It will take time for him to change things at the club and we need to be patient. As long as he makes changes at the selection table and learns by his mistakes I think we have to cut him some slack. Like it or not he inherited some problems that will take time to fix.

A step back to eventually move two forward isn't an unreasonable outcome

I think we've taken three steps back.

[F'scary]

Exactly the right approach by McCartney. By contrast Neeld throws his toys out of the cot after Round 1 - he has nowhere to go after this, even though his team has arguably been even more pathetic in the next two rounds.

Agreed. Keep the recriminations in house.

Neeld's Round 1 post match press conference served only to feed the flames of the crisis story for the D's.

Eade was good at keeping it to the change room and the training track. By reputation he was extremely hard & volatile with the players. But you virtually never saw or heard it (except of course for the silent coach's box antics).

[GVGjr]

I think we've taken three steps back.

A well reasoned assessment on your behalf but within the big change that is being implemented we may very well lose ground in whatever degree you think is appropriate but ultimately start to take some steps forward. It's just way too early to call though.

[AndrewP6]

A well reasoned assessment on your behalf but within the big change that is being implemented we may very well lose ground in whatever degree you think is appropriate but ultimately start to take some steps forward. It's just way too early to call though.

I just think McCartney got it wrong in devoting so much time, energy and draft picks on "contested ball", and neglecting to address our deplorable skill level. I also think he's either tried to change us too much, too quickly - the players don't seem to be getting it, for mine. I hope he proves me wrong.

[Hotdog60]

A well reasoned assessment on your behalf but within the big change that is being implemented we may very well lose ground in whatever degree you think is appropriate but ultimately start to take some steps forward. It's just way too early to call though.

I think you can only start bagging the coach after he's had a fair go at the reins, as you say there will be some steps back before going forward. BMac will have a better idea on his list come the end of the year and it will be an interesting time to see who stays and who goes.

[GVGjr]

I just think McCartney got it wrong in devoting so much time, energy and draft picks on "contested ball", and neglecting to address our deplorable skill level. I also think he's either tried to change us too much, too quickly - the players don't seem to be getting it, for mine. I hope he proves me wrong.

He has his reasons and he is the one who will be measured on them and while I have challenged the logic of some of our selections of late I do hope he has got it right. It's 3 weeks into what was always going to be a long season so I'd rather not let the emotion of a bad defeat be the catalyst of non stop criticizing of the club.

We once were an exciting team to watch and we knew how to keep the scoreboard ticking over but we weren't developing the list correctly and took some short term solutions that we are paying for now. We all need to give him a lot more than 3 weeks before challenging his philosophies.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

At what point is McCartney allowed to be criticized?
I'm puzzled as to why we look like going backwards with supposedly better personel back.
None of the problems we saw last season look like being solved,in fact we look slower and our skills are becoming worse.

Better personel back?

Effectively we are without Hall, Ward, Williams, Morris and to a lesser degree Sherman, Tutt and Hudson.

I'm not defending McCartney here, and I have questioned parts of his coaching myself, but this post is a crack at the guy without any logic.



Hear hear.


I think we've taken three steps back.

Besides being an Eade fan boy, perhaps you should make some detailed analysis instead of pointless posts like these. They're all over the forum and I am already tired of reading them.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He has his reasons and he is the one who will be measured on them and while I have challenged the logic of some of our selections of late I do hope he has got it right. It's 3 weeks into what was always going to be a long season so I'd rather not let the emotion of a bad defeat be the catalyst of non stop criticizing of the club.

We once were an exciting team to watch and we knew how to keep the scoreboard ticking over but we weren't developing the list correctly and took some short term solutions that we are paying for now. We all need to give him a lot more than 3 weeks before challenging his philosophies.

This.

It's fine to question his methods and analyse them week to week, but some posters are taking it too far.

[azabob]

At what point is McCartney allowed to be criticized?
I'm puzzled as to why we look like going backwards with supposedly better personel back.
None of the problems we saw last season look like being solved,in fact we look slower and our skills are becoming worse.

We had 2 ok performances in round one and two and a terrible one in round three. In previous years we have always had unacceptable performances.

Eade (being the last coach) had 7 years with the group and we would get one or two games a year were we didn't give a yelp.

With the personnel back are you referring to Lake and Cooney? We have also lost good players Hall, Morris & Ward.

This time last week the majority were all in admiration of the club and how they responded at half time against the Crows.

[LostDoggy]

Better personel back?

Effectively we are without Hall, Ward, Williams, Morris and to a lesser degree Sherman, Tutt and Hudson.
That's at least balanced with Lake back. Cooney is back. Hargrave is back. We have 1 more year and another preseason on a lot younger platers. Minson, Higgins, etc have uninterrupted preps compare dto last year.
Sherman wasn't there a lot last year. Tutt play all of 4/5 games. Hudson was awful last year.
We got Smith too who is supposely a straight replacement of Ward.


I'm not defending McCartney here, and I have questioned parts of his coaching myself, but this post is a crack at the guy without any logic.
Why is asking the question, having a crack at the guy without logic? Where did I critisize him?

[LostDoggy]

This time last week the majority were all in admiration of the club and how they responded at half time against the Crows.

All?
I prefer we played crap yet we won.
The all the effort we put in the second half, it still didn't make up for how bad we were in the first. The final score proved that.

[GVGjr]

Why is asking the question, having a crack at the guy without logic? Where did I critisize him?

You didn't criticize him however, you clearly asked at what point should we start questioning him which indicates intent. From my point of view it's just way too early to run the ruler over him. He will make mistakes along the way but we owe it to him and the club a lot more than 3 weeks before questioning his approach.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

That's at least balanced with Lake back. Cooney is back. Hargrave is back. We have 1 more year and another preseason on a lot younger platers. Minson, Higgins, etc have uninterrupted preps compare dto last year.
Sherman wasn't there a lot last year. Tutt play all of 4/5 games. Hudson was awful last year.
We got Smith too who is supposely a straight replacement of Ward.

That is not even close to balanced.

Cooney is back? Where did he go? He played last year.

Lake and Hargrave are back, but as I said, they are offset by a core of experienced players who all -- at some point -- contributed last year. Hall and Ward were fantastic, whilst Williams and Morris were our two key backs. Sherman and Hudson contributed and offered more than Roughead/Dickson (for example). Tutt showed a bit late when we were OK in patches late last year, but he's already injured his hamstring twice in 2012.

Our personel at the best of times isn't (and wasn't) great, let alone compared to last year at this point.


Why is asking the question, having a crack at the guy without logic? Where did I critisize him?

See below.

You indicated that he should be put under the microscope and compared it to ours (and let's face it, Eade's) position last year. The two are uncomparable.


You didn't criticize him however, you clearly asked at what point should we start questioning him which indicates intent. From my point of view it's just way too early to run the ruler over him. He will make mistakes along the way but we owe it to him and the club a lot more than 3 weeks before questioning his approach.

[LostDoggy]

So just because he has only 3 games, he shouldn't be critisized.
Even though he was painted as the saviour and we are 'refreshing' not rebuilding.

Neeld has copped a lot worse by the way. Buckley hasn't escaped it either.

Also Roughead played last year. Cooney played maybe 1 really good game last year, his output this season is on at least a par.

My question was hardly a Fred Cook Cheap as chips post.

[PedroArvy]

I'd say the skill level has degenerated so massively that you can criticise the coach!

I wish I was a fly on the wall and knew exactly what was going on in this club. Pity that the truth is so elusive!!

[Scraggers]

I agree it's too early to criticise McCartney or throw the baby out with the bath water, but he doesn't get off 'scott free' either. He is the head of 'on field' club ... The buck stops with him.
As I said in the Game Day thread, he also needs to be accountable for last night's performance.

I don't expect that we will play finals, in fact I don't expect we will win more than a handful of games (after last night, maybe less). But I do expect that all those who take to the field or sit in the coaches box will do what they are paid (bloody) well to do. Last night, IMO there were not many on or off the field that earned their paycheques.

[bornadog]

Are both BMac and Neeld trying to force their players to play a certain way, (ala Geelong and Collingwood Press) but they are forgetting that the cattle is not there to play that way. Maybe they have to try and adapt to the type of players we have and devise a game plan around that. Its all well and good to be number one at contested footy but you have to do something with it and not just cough it up like we do.

When Eade came to the club, he looked at his players and thought, this mob cannot produce a super flood like the way the Swans do. He saw the club had recruited a lot of pace that was ideal to play at Eithad Stadium. So he changed the game plan and we became a running team moving the ball quickly from one end of the ground to the other.

Not sure how long BMAC will persist with the way he is coaching, but all I know is you have to assess the players you have and get them to play to their strengths.

[Ghost Dog]

Are both BMac and Neeld trying to force their players to play a certain way, (ala Geelong and Collingwood Press) but they are forgetting that the cattle is not there to play that way. Maybe they have to try and adapt to the type of players we have and devise a game plan around that. Its all well and good to be number one at contested footy but you have to do something with it and not just cough it up like we do.

When Eade came to the club, he looked at his players and thought, this mob cannot produce a super flood like the way the Swans do. He saw the club had recruited a lot of pace that was ideal to play at Eithad Stadium. So he changed the game plan and we became a running team moving the ball quickly from one end of the ground to the other.

Not sure how long BMAC will persist with the way he is coaching, but all I know is you have to assess the players you have and get them to play to their strengths.

Well the style he wants to implement suits the Smith, Boyd, Libba, Cross types. Problem is our skills are just not able to transfer the ball into the forward line, and our forward line is a bit of a mess.

[LostDoggy]

I'm on holidays in Europe and curiosity got the better of me so I checked the score. Wow, wish I didn't! Realistically, while we all hoped we'd make some quick improvement this year, we still have the same players who's skills are lacking or on the decline. We don't have enough forward firepower and our back line is unsettled. IMO we're tracking how I thought we would. It's going to hurt for a while but long term we'll be better off. Macca is an experienced guy and knows what he's doing. Hang tough everyone.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

What did we honestly expect? To start the season 2-1?

We were always most likely to go 0-3. The fact is we are in a rebuilding stage, and it has to start from the ground up.

Aside from Lake, Morris, Murphy, Boyd, Griffen, Cooney and Gia -- we've got guys that are either not up to it or are still very raw and inexperienced. Of that group mentioned above, Lake is returning from a long stint off footy, Morris is coming back from a broken leg and Cooney's body is realistically shot. When you add a few injuries to the likes of handy fringe players like Williams and Sherman, we were always going to struggle ALL over the field. That's not even going into our forward line woes, or our pathetic skill level that has existed since 2010.

FWIW I am not suggesting McCartney get a 'free ride', and in fact, I have already questioned our forward structures. It's also worth asking the question about the drafting of Smith, given our deplorable skill level.

But it's as though a lot of people on here (and at the ground last night) were thinking we were magically going to be a top 8 side again.

We copped a belting last night and rest assured, we'll cop a few more before we begin to get better.

[GVGjr]

So just because he has only 3 games, he shouldn't be critisized.


If there is some glaring coaching errors he has made on match day then yes of course. Ditto for team selections but if it's on the state of the list, skill errors and players adjusting to the game plan he was hired to implement then 3 games (or 12 games for that matter) is not something we should be jumping on him for.

Lets be specific for things we want to question him on but we just can't look at the scoreboard and blame the coach for it.

[Ghost Dog]

What did we honestly expect? To start the season 2-1?

We were always most likely to go 0-3. The fact is we are in a rebuilding stage, and it has to start from the ground up.

Aside from Lake, Morris, Murphy, Boyd, Griffen, Cooney and Gia -- we've got guys that are either not up to it or are still very raw and inexperienced. Of that group mentioned above, Lake is returning from a long stint off footy, Morris is coming back from a broken leg and Cooney's body is realistically shot. When you add a few injuries to the likes of handy fringe players like Williams and Sherman, we were always going to struggle ALL over the field. That's not even going into our forward line woes, or our pathetic skill level that has existed since 2010.

FWIW I am not suggesting McCartney get a 'free ride', and in fact, I have already questioned our forward structures. It's also worth asking the question about the drafting of Smith, given our deplorable skill level.

But it's as though a lot of people on here (and at the ground last night) were thinking we were magically going to be a top 8 side again.

We copped a belting last night and rest assured, we'll cop a few more before we begin to get better.

Sorry but I don't se the point in questioning Smith's selection. He's had such a short time to show his wares and to call his skills deplorable is a bit premature? The two sentences were side by side so the inference was there. Has been far from the worst player on our list skills wise.

[Ghost Dog]

At what point is McCartney allowed to be criticized?
I'm puzzled as to why we look like going backwards with supposedly better personel back.
None of the problems we saw last season look like being solved,in fact we look slower and our skills are becoming worse.

Sorry if I missed the post, but did you give a break down of your criticisms so far anywhere?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Sorry but I don't se the point in questioning Smith's selection. He's had such a short time to show his wares and to call his skills deplorable is a bit premature? The two sentences were side by side so the inference was there. Has been far from the worst player on our list skills wise.

Why don't you see the point in it?

We were either last or very close to it for disposal efficiency last year. We drafted Smith who was recognised pre-draft as an ordinary kick, and in his first 3 games, this has clearly been identified. The kid has some strong attributes and I have no doubt he will be a solid player, but kicking certainly isn't a strength of his.

I haven't got the stats of his DE over the past two weeks, but he has turned it over quite badly and it's not just a coincidence.

[LostDoggy]

Lets be specific for things we want to question him on but we just can't look at the scoreboard and blame the coach for it.

Ok already been written.
Why the focus on contested ball (a skill we weren't that bad at) and the lack of focus of speed and disposal skills(things we are going backwards in)?

[comrade]

Ok already been written.
Why the focus on contested ball (a skill we weren't that bad at) and the lack of focus of speed and disposal skills(things we are going backwards in)?

We were doing ball work earlier than any club this pre-season. Yes, a premium was placed on winning contested possession but I doubt 'skills' were just ignored.

The issue is that we have a list chock full of players that are slow and can't kick. No coach can change the inherent physical deficiencies over one pre-season.

One strike against Macca is his insistence on drafting Clay Smith, a player with ammo league foot skills.

Hopefully after seeing his list exposed in the field of battle will hammer home the need to bring in quality ball users over the next few years. If a player is not an elite-ish kick (or has the ability to become one), our instinct should be to pass.

[stefoid]

Our hardness around the ball kept us in the game despite our other shortcomings, but we lost that significant edge against the saints, leaving us completely exposed.

I think we were tired and sore and the saints were relatively fresh after their training run against the suns. We almost called Dickson in, probably to replace a sore libba or smith.

We will need to rotate the younger guys through the sub position I think.

[Greystache]

We were doing ball work earlier than any club this pre-season. Yes, a premium was placed on winning contested possession but I doubt 'skills' were just ignored.

The issue is that we have a list chock full of players that are slow and can't kick. No coach can change the inherent physical deficiencies over one pre-season.

One strike against Macca is his insistence on drafting Clay Smith, a player with ammo league foot skills.

Hopefully after seeing his list exposed in the field of battle will hammer home the need to bring in quality ball users over the next few years. If a player is not an elite-ish kick (or has the ability to become one), our instinct should be to pass.

Correct. We also made a strong focus of pressuring the ball carrier, and therefore of disposing the ball effectively under pressure. We're still very poor in this area, but we were 17th last year as well. It had fallen away badly over the past few years because it wasn't a priority previously. I think the new coaching team want to improve our disposal under pressure but we were starting at absolute zero.

[F'scary]

Ok already been written.
Why the focus on contested ball (a skill we weren't that bad at) and the lack of focus of speed and disposal skills(things we are going backwards in)?

Extremely interesting point. OMG, if you are right we're stuffed - doomed to play a bad version of rugby league all the way to the bottom of the ladder.

Some of the comments from posters who were at the game indicate that at times our overly exuberant "hardness at the ball" and our enthusiasm for "contested ball" was like a slapstick comedy routine.

[AndrewP6]

Besides being an Eade fan boy, perhaps you should make some detailed analysis instead of pointless posts like these. They're all over the forum and I am already tired of reading them.

Sorry, I didn't realize this had morphed into the "How to post incredible comments on WOOF" tutorial.

Yeah, I liked Eade, so what, we all have our favorites (and scapegoats). I'm not going to change my opinion , or stop putting it forward, because you don't hold the same view. As for the "I'm tired of reading them" comment, is that violins I hear playing? :rolleyes:

[AndrewP6]

How do you figure?

We were OK in round one, better in round two, dreadful in round three.

That reads as inconsistent to me -- not 'getting worse' by the week.

Because we have kept on making the same errors, and made the, all night last night.

[F'scary]

Sorry, I didn't realize this had morphed into the "How to post incredible comments on WOOF" tutorial.

Yeah, I liked Eade, so what, we all have our favorites (and scapegoats). I'm not going to change my opinion , or stop putting it forward, because you don't hold the same view. As for the "I'm tired of reading them" comment, is that violins I hear playing? :rolleyes:

Yep, I liked Eade too as a coach. When it happened I decided I had to accept the change but the jury is now out for me. I guess macca has to be given at least this season before the verdict is in. Maybe this year and next.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Sorry, I didn't realize this had morphed into the "How to post incredible comments on WOOF" tutorial.

Yeah, I liked Eade, so what, we all have our favorites (and scapegoats). I'm not going to change my opinion , or stop putting it forward, because you don't hold the same view. As for the "I'm tired of reading them" comment, is that violins I hear playing? :rolleyes:

Get over it. It's all you post about.


Because we have kept on making the same errors, and made the, all night last night.

That doesn't actually justify the 'getting worse by the week' comment. :rolleyes:

[AndrewP6]

Get over it. It's all you post about.

Oh, so you've read in depth then...over 4,000 posts and they've all been about McCartney. :rolleyes: As for 'get over it', funnily enough I was thinking the same.

Alright if it pleases you (and clearly that's imperative here) I'll just sing the coach's praises.

[Greystache]

Let's stay on topic shall we.

[Mofra]

Thats a worry for me. A lot of talk last year was around how poor our leaders are and IMO it hasn't changed at all. Why would anyone want to listen to blokes who repeatedly turn the ball over, cannot kick, play dumb footy, fail under pressure and ultimately have missed their chance?


Perhaps the issue is that they are listening too much!
Interesting to look at our leaders.

Boyd turns the ball over far too much, although his endeavour can't be faulted
Gia was a non-factor last night
Cross battled against Goddard who is bigger, stronger and quicker. Effort was there, not the effect (2 goals & 20 touches at 3/4 time for Goddard).
Murphy - one of our best, Milne got late goals after being well held when we were getting flogged.
Morris - injured

Only one of our leaders out there really won his position. It is starting to become a worry that we value effort over effect.
That does seem to be much of the message from B-Mac though. Time will tell how the "build from the inside out" mantra pans out.

[AndrewP6]

Interesting to look at our leaders.

Gia was a non-factor last night


I'm a fan, but boy he looked ordinary.

[Mofra]

I'm a fan, but boy he looked ordinary.
He ended up with 9 disposals and 1 tackle - from a senior player that is deplorable

Cordy, being double teamed for much of the night, also ended up with only 9 disposals - but managed 7 tackles. In his 3rd game.

[Mantis]

He ended up with 9 disposals and 1 tackle - from a senior player that is deplorable



I know he spent time in the midfield, but in an out-numbered forwardline you need to be able to catch someone to tackle them and Gia struggles to do that.

[Mofra]

I know he spent time in the midfield, but in an out-numbered forwardline you need to be able to catch someone to tackle them and Gia struggles to do that.
I still believe tackling is more about intent than leg-speed.

Cross is treacle but still managed 4. Cordy managed 7. Grant is a twig but managed to stick 5.

[comrade]

I know he spent time in the midfield, but in an out-numbered forwardline you need to be able to catch someone to tackle them and Gia struggles to do that.

Someone observed that Gia loses his feet all the time. Higgins does the same. When you're a plodder, it's better for your ego to fall over than stay on your feet and get burnt off.

Would we have the slowest 'best' 22 in the league?

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

If there is some glaring coaching errors he has made on match day then yes of course. Ditto for team selections but if it's on the state of the list, skill errors and players adjusting to the game plan he was hired to implement then 3 games (or 12 games for that matter) is not something we should be jumping on him for.

Lets be specific for things we want to question him on but we just can't look at the scoreboard and blame the coach for it.

I admire your support of the new coach. On sheer ability we are a long way off the three pre-lim finals teams under Rodney Eade. The losses of Hall Harbrow Johnson Eagleton, Gilbee, Hudson, Ward, Williams and Morris is severe. Cooney isn't the player he once was. Our current list is deficient in many areas in particular the attack where apart from Dahlhaus we do not have a stand out player. This is a very tough assignment for BMcC. He simply doesn't have the riches of being with an outstanding Geelong combination during his 10 year tenure. At this stage of the Club's development I would like to think he is the best available to rebuild our list. We are in for some tough times.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Guys we all are clearly stinging about the performance against the Saints, I don't think we should signal out a first year player or a young guy that is still learning his trade. We had a lot of passengers last night and we all more than likely sat their and asked why couldn't we man up, provide a chop out, fill a hole, lead up etc etc.

For me I am concerned about the message and or direction, I read the bulldog magazine and listen to BMAC and hear we will play a brand of footy that will be competitive and exciting to watch. Well that was OK the first two rounds and we all had been pretty happy to a degree.

What I can't understand and looking for now is what went wrong and what is going to be happening moving forward. If we are rebuilding drop a few guys and state it, if the team didn't do as asked, tell us then take it away to the Monday meetings with the captain.

I lost a little faith last night with the press conference in that "we will review the tapes Monday and address honestly with players"

Do you know what went wrong on the night? and why not state that we did x,y,z wrong and the players know who and what it is. From were i was sitting I had to ask what did the senior players or coaching staff do, We didn't try moving Murphy up forward and shaggy down back, Wood into the centre, lake at FF. If thing such as these had been tried and we still got flogged you would say that we tried.

I'm not 100% sure that the players or coaches gave it 100% against the Saints.

Is BMac the man for the Club, I hope so and I'm happy to bump and grind for the season but i want to see a Bulldog outfit that has a red hot go and if the skills let us down, well we know we have to fix that in the next few drafts.

[w3design]

He has his reasons and he is the one who will be measured on them and while I have challenged the logic of some of our selections of late I do hope he has got it right. It's 3 weeks into what was always going to be a long season so I'd rather not let the emotion of a bad defeat be the catalyst of non stop criticizing of the club.

We once were an exciting team to watch and we knew how to keep the scoreboard ticking over but we weren't developing the list correctly and took some short term solutions that we are paying for now. We all need to give him a lot more than 3 weeks before challenging his philosophies.

Well said agree totally give him a year playing the team delist at the end of the year and god get this draft right this year .

[LostDoggy]

My problem with all this wait and see is that Richmond gave Wallace 5 years and Melbourne gave Bailey 3 and they both ended up worse than before their tenures. We've also had our own debacle in Rohde.

I don't believe that you have to be shit for a few years before turning it around -- sure, 3 games in is very, very early days, and I said my timeframe to make a definitive call is 1.5 years, but the reality is that with a lot of these guys you can see the writing on the wall very early: no one other than Richmond die-hards thought Wallace was doing a good job, anyone with eyes could see that Melbourne was going nowhere fast etc., even after Bailey's first 3 games (where they got belted by 100 points each).

Very few coaches who start out absolutely terribly get a whole lot better. Voss looks like he may turn it around a bit, Clarkson was rocky early but you knew he was working towards something innovative, Hird and Thomson definitely gave Essendon a lift, and Rocket had a rocky first year here but at least there were always signs that we were heading in a hopeful direction. We haven't had any signs of that here. We haven't even had a little dead cat bounce on enthusiasm alone.

My absolute biggest worry, however, is the absolute lack of any sign of intelligence or creativity on or off the field. We've hitched our wagon to the wheel of honest graft and hard work, but I'm afraid that without intelligence and innovation we will hit a very real and immovable ceiling, especially with the head-start we give everyone else from a resourcing standpoint. As the poorest/one of the poorest teams around, relying on hard work is very well and good but without innovation we may as well resign ourselves to 20 years of being North Melbourne.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

My problem with all this wait and see is that Richmond gave Wallace 5 years and Melbourne gave Bailey 3 and they both ended up worse than before their tenures. We've also had our own debacle in Rohde.

I don't believe that you have to be shit for a few years before turning it around -- sure, 3 games in is very, very early days, and I said my timeframe to make a definitive call is 1.5 years, but the reality is that with a lot of these guys you can see the writing on the wall very early: no one other than Richmond die-hards thought Wallace was doing a good job, anyone with eyes could see that Melbourne was going nowhere fast etc., even after Bailey's first 3 games (where they got belted by 100 points each).

Very few coaches who start out absolutely terribly get a whole lot better. Voss looks like he may turn it around a bit, Clarkson was rocky early but you knew he was working towards something innovative, Hird and Thomson definitely gave Essendon a lift, and Rocket had a rocky first year here but at least there were always signs that we were heading in a hopeful direction. We haven't had any signs of that here. We haven't even had a little dead cat bounce on enthusiasm alone.

My absolute biggest worry, however, is the absolute lack of any sign of intelligence or creativity on or off the field. We've hitched our wagon to the wheel of honest graft and hard work, but I'm afraid that without intelligence and innovation we will hit a very real and immovable ceiling, especially with the head-start we give everyone else from a resourcing standpoint. As the poorest/one of the poorest teams around, relying on hard work is very well and good but without innovation we may as well resign ourselves to 20 years of being North Melbourne.

It all comes down to talent and there isn't a lot there at the moment. The forward line is deplorable with only Dahlhaus being a threat to opposing defences. This is going to be one long season. The effort against Adelaide was pretty good but the St. Kilda game was a disaster. The losses of Hall, Ward, Hudson, Williams and Morris and now Lake for a week has left us very undermanned. There is too much being left to too few each week with Boyd, Griffen, Picken and Dahlhaus the few standouts. We are all going to need plenty of patience. I also think your reference to a lack of intelligence and innovation has as much to do with wholesale changes at a MC level without prior knowledge of the players capabilities and dare I say it limitations.

[AndrewP6]

My problem with all this wait and see is that Richmond gave Wallace 5 years and Melbourne gave Bailey 3 and they both ended up worse than before their tenures. We've also had our own debacle in Rohde.

I don't believe that you have to be shit for a few years before turning it around -- sure, 3 games in is very, very early days, and I said my timeframe to make a definitive call is 1.5 years, but the reality is that with a lot of these guys you can see the writing on the wall very early: no one other than Richmond die-hards thought Wallace was doing a good job, anyone with eyes could see that Melbourne was going nowhere fast etc., even after Bailey's first 3 games (where they got belted by 100 points each).

Very few coaches who start out absolutely terribly get a whole lot better. Voss looks like he may turn it around a bit, Clarkson was rocky early but you knew he was working towards something innovative, Hird and Thomson definitely gave Essendon a lift, and Rocket had a rocky first year here but at least there were always signs that we were heading in a hopeful direction. We haven't had any signs of that here. We haven't even had a little dead cat bounce on enthusiasm alone.

My absolute biggest worry, however, is the absolute lack of any sign of intelligence or creativity on or off the field. We've hitched our wagon to the wheel of honest graft and hard work, but I'm afraid that without intelligence and innovation we will hit a very real and immovable ceiling, especially with the head-start we give everyone else from a resourcing standpoint. As the poorest/one of the poorest teams around, relying on hard work is very well and good but without innovation we may as well resign ourselves to 20 years of being North Melbourne.

Good post, well said.

[Ghost Dog]

My problem with all this wait and see is that Richmond gave Wallace 5 years and Melbourne gave Bailey 3 and they both ended up worse than before their tenures. We've also had our own debacle in Rohde.

I don't believe that you have to be shit for a few years before turning it around -- sure, 3 games in is very, very early days, and I said my timeframe to make a definitive call is 1.5 years, but the reality is that with a lot of these guys you can see the writing on the wall very early: no one other than Richmond die-hards thought Wallace was doing a good job, anyone with eyes could see that Melbourne was going nowhere fast etc., even after Bailey's first 3 games (where they got belted by 100 points each).

Very few coaches who start out absolutely terribly get a whole lot better. Voss looks like he may turn it around a bit, Clarkson was rocky early but you knew he was working towards something innovative, Hird and Thomson definitely gave Essendon a lift, and Rocket had a rocky first year here but at least there were always signs that we were heading in a hopeful direction. We haven't had any signs of that here. We haven't even had a little dead cat bounce on enthusiasm alone.

My absolute biggest worry, however, is the absolute lack of any sign of intelligence or creativity on or off the field. We've hitched our wagon to the wheel of honest graft and hard work, but I'm afraid that without intelligence and innovation we will hit a very real and immovable ceiling, especially with the head-start we give everyone else from a resourcing standpoint. As the poorest/one of the poorest teams around, relying on hard work is very well and good but without innovation we may as well resign ourselves to 20 years of being North Melbourne.

Good Post Lantern and some interesting reading.
Just to counter, may I ask, you would not call being in front against the Crows a glimmer of hope?

[westdog54]

Good Post Lantern and some interesting reading.
On the contrary, may I ask, you would not call being in front against the Crows a glimmer of hope?

While I can't speak for Lantern, if we're going to hang our hats on being in front for a brief period in a match we eventually lost, I think we're clutching at straws.

[Ghost Dog]

While I can't speak for Lantern, if we're going to hang our hats on being in front for a brief period in a match we eventually lost, I think we're clutching at straws.

Yet, to say there has been 100%, absolutely no signs of hope for this season's team would be an exaggeration would it not? We also showed the Eagles we can play and caused them some headaches. Moreover, our contested ball work is very good and that's a good first step. Teams like Melbourne and GWS, Richmond never had this to 'hang their hats on'. Even today, some years after the departure of Terry Wallace from Richmond, a double page spread is devoted to the Tiger's 'soft centre'.

[westdog54]

Yet, to say there has been 100%, absolutely no signs of hope for this season's team would be an exaggeration would it not? We also showed the Eagles we can play and caused them some headaches. Moreover, our contested ball work is very good and that's a good first step. Teams like Melbourne and GWS, Richmond never had this to 'hang their hats on'. Even today, some years after the departure of Terry Wallace from Richmond, a double page spread is devoted to the Tiger's 'soft centre'.

You're right in saying that there have been signs of hope, I just hope we start putting them altogether in 4 quarter efforts.

I'm not sure that the GWS comparison is a fair one at this stage. They're just getting started out and they'll have their speed bumps along the way. Melbourne and Richmond on the other hand got themselves smack bang in the middle of the messes they got themselves into.

[Happy Days]

Maybe we are building towards something?

We've been shit, no question about it. But it's undeniable that we're seeing something different in McCartney's "manly" footy than we did under Rocket; the game plan has clearly changed, did anyone seriously think that such a change would run totally smoothly after 3 games? It took the Saints 12 months to fully grasp and buy into Saints Footy, it's not something that can be done with one pre season.

FWIW, I think we've totally shot our wad at the minute on winning contested ball, and aren't doing the easy things any more (as reflected in us smashing in hard ball gets and getting flogged in loose ball gets). But rather than pay out the game plan as a flop, I'm waiting to see how it builds. It could be a case of cementing the fundamentals of it (contested ball) and then adding the other elements (loose/outside play, spreading from contests, etc) as we become more adept at fundamentals.

I'm not saying that this is what's happening, or even if it is, that it will work, but I think we need to give it more time to unfold.

[DragzLS1]

Maybe we are building towards something?

We've been shit, no question about it. But it's undeniable that we're seeing something different in McCartney's "manly" footy than we did under Rocket; the game plan has clearly changed, did anyone seriously think that such a change would run totally smoothly after 3 games? It took the Saints 12 months to fully grasp and buy into Saints Footy, it's not something that can be done with one pre season.

FWIW, I think we've totally shot our wad at the minute on winning contested ball, and aren't doing the easy things any more (as reflected in us smashing in hard ball gets and getting flogged in loose ball gets). But rather than pay out the game plan as a flop, I'm waiting to see how it builds. It could be a case of cementing the fundamentals of it (contested ball) and then adding the other elements (loose/outside play, spreading from contests, etc) as we become more adept at fundamentals.

I'm not saying that this is what's happening, or even if it is, that it will work, but I think we need to give it more time to unfold.


I think you are on the right track here. Clearly Macca wants us to win the hard ball gets first which we are doing very well. If we can then improve our spread ect.. we will be a very hard team to play against. Maybe we will still get smashed by the top 4-6 teams but we will dominate the mid - low table teams in contested ball and clearances giving us a good chance to beat them. I would rather be hard to play against and hard at it then soft with all flare (e.g Richmond).

[Ozza]

My problem with all this wait and see is that Richmond gave Wallace 5 years and Melbourne gave Bailey 3 and they both ended up worse than before their tenures. We've also had our own debacle in Rohde.

I don't believe that you have to be shit for a few years before turning it around -- sure, 3 games in is very, very early days, and I said my timeframe to make a definitive call is 1.5 years, but the reality is that with a lot of these guys you can see the writing on the wall very early: no one other than Richmond die-hards thought Wallace was doing a good job, anyone with eyes could see that Melbourne was going nowhere fast etc., even after Bailey's first 3 games (where they got belted by 100 points each).

Very few coaches who start out absolutely terribly get a whole lot better. Voss looks like he may turn it around a bit, Clarkson was rocky early but you knew he was working towards something innovative, Hird and Thomson definitely gave Essendon a lift, and Rocket had a rocky first year here but at least there were always signs that we were heading in a hopeful direction. We haven't had any signs of that here. We haven't even had a little dead cat bounce on enthusiasm alone.

My absolute biggest worry, however, is the absolute lack of any sign of intelligence or creativity on or off the field. We've hitched our wagon to the wheel of honest graft and hard work, but I'm afraid that without intelligence and innovation we will hit a very real and immovable ceiling, especially with the head-start we give everyone else from a resourcing standpoint. As the poorest/one of the poorest teams around, relying on hard work is very well and good but without innovation we may as well resign ourselves to 20 years of being North Melbourne.

I think its pretty early to be suggesting we are only relying hard work and honest graft - and not on innovation or intelligence. Its going to take time and evolvement of both the game plan and the playing list to get back up to the top. We may well struggle for most or all of this year to adapt to a different coaching/playing style or see the plans come into place at all during games.

As for the bolded section - and I'll preface this by saying I didn't want Rocket to be sacked - but its round 3 - what were you expecting? We've come into a season with an inferior list to what we've had previously, and have been ok in patches in 2 games and horrible in another. there's going to be a fair bit of pain first before we get better. We knew this whether it was Rocket coaching or Macca.

As far as the examples of Bailey and Wallace....there was also Thompson getting 7 years littered with strong criticism and speculation on whether he'd get the sack before a flag, and Malthouse took 11 years to get one at Collingwood. These examples aren't relevant - but they are equally as irrelevant as Wallace and Bailey.

My main argument is patience. McCartney has to take time to build the list, and the game plan and the development of players properly. With the Bailey example - he went in - Saw how Geelong played - tried to do the same staright away, took the quick route - and went backwards. Good teams are put together over time. All and sundry wanted to pot John Worsfold 2 years ago - every man on the street wanted to say he was a sh1t coach (even though he was already a Premiership coach) - and suddenly he's got arguably the most desirable list in the competition - on his second cycle.

[ledge]

Maybe we are building towards something?

We've been shit, no question about it. But it's undeniable that we're seeing something different in McCartney's "manly" footy than we did under Rocket; the game plan has clearly changed, did anyone seriously think that such a change would run totally smoothly after 3 games? It took the Saints 12 months to fully grasp and buy into Saints Footy, it's not something that can be done with one pre season.

FWIW, I think we've totally shot our wad at the minute on winning contested ball, and aren't doing the easy things any more (as reflected in us smashing in hard ball gets and getting flogged in loose ball gets). But rather than pay out the game plan as a flop, I'm waiting to see how it builds. It could be a case of cementing the fundamentals of it (contested ball) and then adding the other elements (loose/outside play, spreading from contests, etc) as we become more adept at fundamentals.

I'm not saying that this is what's happening, or even if it is, that it will work, but I think we need to give it more time to unfold.

^^^^What he said!!