Credit where it is due

[Ghost Dog]

Last night a great deal many individuals who are often potted on these forums had amazing match day moments. These are not consistent efforts over a period of time, granted.
However, time to identify which player often frustrates you, and why they surprised you last night.

Was out of my seat with Easton Wood's game. The obvious turnaround in form.

Cross was great last night, and was an important player. Someone mentioned 91% by foot. Well done Crossy.

[LostDoggy]

Too much credit I believe. Great effort but we lost.

[Ghost Dog]

Too much credit I believe. Great effort but we lost.

If fans are only going to measure our performance on a few turnovers and missed set shots, then it's a cheap sort of analysis. Several of our players won their battle last night. In some cases it was surprising.

[LostDoggy]

Mark Austin just knuckled down and competed with Dawes , got out positioned a couple of times and was caught out by Dawes ability to tap to advantage but he justified the faith in him to get the job done , we threw him a lifeline to get his career back on track , with Williams out and Markovic out we needed another tall defender to shoulder the load and Mark certainly took up the challenge

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/AFL+Rd+6+Western+Bulldogs+v+Collingwood+B-NrBsP7Lpsl.jpg


.

[always right]

Too much credit I believe. Great effort but we lost.

Hope we're not going down the old path of criticizing supporters for accepting mediocrity again. Reality is most on this board expected a humiliation last night including me. Was pleasantly surprised in the performance. Still a long way to go but I think most are simply looking for continuous improvement.

Next week will tell the real story. We need to back up that effort with more of the same.

[craigsahibee]

There weren't too many passengers last night.

Crossy's efficiency by foot was by far his best ever. Addison was great. Wood's best game for the season by far but sadly will be missing for a month. Lake's confidence and self belief grew as the game progressed. Not happy with the result but the effort was fantastic.

Need to back it up now.

[Cyberdoggie]

There weren't too many passengers last night.

Crossy's efficiency by foot was by far his best ever. Addison was great. Wood's best game for the season by far but sadly will be missing for a month. Lake's confidence and self belief grew as the game progressed. Not happy with the result but the effort was fantastic.

Need to back it up now.

Except for the howler that gave them the game.

Can add Murphy, Cross and Higgins in there with those poor errors in defence.

Having said that the game was over in the last quarter when we stopped try to move the ball through the middle and just banged it on the boot whenever we got it, gifting it to the pies.

A lot to be positive about for once this year though.

Now if we can only find a tall forward who can take a grab, Jones has lost his mojo and needs to go back to Willy. If i had a dollar for every time he leaped at the ball underneath the flight i'd be rich.

[Ghost Dog]

Except for the howler that gave them the game.

Can add Murphy, Cross and Higgins in there with those poor errors in defence.

Having said that the game was over in the last quarter when we stopped try to move the ball through the middle and just banged it on the boot whenever we got it, gifting it to the pies.

A lot to be positive about for once this year though.

Now if we can only find a tall forward who can take a grab, Jones has lost his mojo and needs to go back to Willy. If i had a dollar for every time he leaped at the ball underneath the flight i'd be rich.

Jones is young and gets pushed under the ball a lot. I would prefer not to drop him, play him further up on the wing or closer to the square - go with a small forward line as we did last night.
Dropping him is just an easy way out. He needs as much game time as possible. KF players are just too rare to skimp on their development.

[LostDoggy]

Hope we're not going down the old path of criticizing supporters for accepting mediocrity again. Reality is most on this board expected a humiliation last night including me. Was pleasantly surprised in the performance. Still a long way to go but I think most are simply looking for continuous improvement.

Next week will tell the real story. We need to back up that effort with more of the same.

You are mistaking me if you I'm one of the accept mediocrity brigade. I was pleased with the effort but would take an ugly win over a spirited loss every time.

The fact is you measure the performance on win or losses. Credit for the effort only to a point.

[Eastdog]

A lot of positives from that game last night. Lake, Hargrave, Murph and Wood all played good games in defence. Our Mids Cross, Griff, and Boyd were very good as well. The forward line was the downfall but Gia worked and kicked a couple. Jones I think we criticise him a lot but I say his only 20 and can become a good player if he inprooves his kicking as he is a good contested mark. What pleased me the most was the effort shown. That is what I expect when we come out each week.

[OLD SCRAGGer]

Jones is young and gets pushed under the ball a lot. I would prefer not to drop him, play him further up on the wing or closer to the square - go with a small forward line as we did last night.
Dropping him is just an easy way out. He needs as much game time as possible. KF players are just too rare to skimp on their development.

I'd love to see Jonesy play CHF & give young Tommy Hill a run at FF..but hey, I'm a female, what would I know :D:eek:

[Eastdog]

I'd love to see Jonesy play CHF & give young Tommy Hill a run at FF..but hey, I'm a female, what would I know :D:eek:

It would be good to see Tommy Hill play at FF. He is a tall player and would suite up forward.

[westdog54]

You are mistaking me if you I'm one of the accept mediocrity brigade. I was pleased with the effort but would take an ugly win over a spirited loss every time.

The fact is you measure the performance on win or losses. Credit for the effort only to a point.

I had to re-readboth posts a few times, but Chops is right. He hates the 'accepting mediocrity' mantra and fires up whenever it is brought up.

Having said that, given what we'd seen in the last month or so, mediocrity would have been an improvement.

I said in the preview thread that if we couldn't keep their half backs accountable it was game over. While Shaw played well I thought O'Brien and Maxwell were non factors, so hats off to our half forwards in that regard.

I put the 'Anchor' tag on Addison but I thought he completed reasonably well. I'm still unsure of whether he'll still be on the list at years end but he gets a pass mark.

Its never easy to come on as a Sub, but Wallis' endeavour at the contest last night was heartening. Another hint that he'll make it as a quality footballer.

Easton, Easton, Easton, you poor bastard. You finally show the brilliance as a running half back that we know your capable of, then your hammy goes. Getter better soon and lets see more of the same. When he took that pack mark in the 2nd I had to do a double take to make sure it was him.

Crossy played his best game in a long time, his disposal and decision making were excellent and the grunt side of his game was still there. Couldn't be happier.

Mark Austin battled bravely against a very strong full forward and I was happy with how he went.

[EasternWest]

Its never easy to come on as a Sub, but Wallis' endeavour at the contest last night was heartening. Another hint that he'll make it as a quality footballer.


Provided his form warrants it, my preference would be for Wallis to play every game. He seems to have improved in every aspect of his game and I think his development will skyrocket if he can get some continuity at the top level. Looks to have turned a corner IMO, and is a player in the making.

[Desipura]

I hope we are not going down the path of clapping our team off the ground after a creditable loss.

[Ghost Dog]

I hope we are not going down the path of clapping our team off the ground after a creditable loss.

Some fans subscribe to a 'winning the game is everything " mentality. But there are individual wins as well. The player who wins his own personal game. There are other threads, if the mood in this one is not to your liking folks! Feel free to find one better suited to your supporting philosophy.

[Desipura]

Regardless of whether the thread is to my liking or not, I have every right to give my opinion, or would you only prefer people to respond when they agree with you?

[LostDoggy]

Some fans subscribe to a 'winning the game is everything " mentality. But there are individual wins as well. The player who wins his own personal game. There are other threads if the mood in this one is not to your liking.

What's this 'individual wins'? Is it tennis or golf?
It's a team game. Who barracks for one player?

[SonofScray]

I hope we are not going down the path of clapping our team off the ground after a creditable loss.

Agree, those days are gone surely? Not so much the clapping off but the idea that keeping up with the 'big' clubs is an achievement. That being said, I think you can acknowledge the effort without actually accepting the defeat.

There were some very solid individual performances.

[F'scary]

I agree whole heartedly that we should not accept mediocrity by being happy with creditable losses.

However, because of our form to round 5, I was really pleased to see how well the Doggies went last night, they defied the predictions of the "experts" and they played like they wanted to win, got pipped late but I reckon if they can perform to that standard every week and keep improving a bit we'll be back as a side that wins more than it loses.:D

[Ghost Dog]

Regardless of whether the thread is to my liking or not, I have every right to give my opinion, or would you only prefer people to respond when they agree with you?

That's right. And others have the right to cheer an honorable loss. So why knock them for it?

[Desipura]

Agree, those days are gone surely? Not so much the clapping off but the idea that keeping up with the 'big' clubs is an achievement. That being said, I think you can acknowledge the effort without actually accepting the defeat.

There were some very solid individual performances.

I totally agree with this. Not sure where I was criticizing anyone

[Mofra]

Good thread.

I hope we're not back to the simplistic "we lost, therefore our entire team is shit" vs "we won, everything is wonderful" argument.

There are positives in a loss as much as there are negatives in a win - nothing wrong with acknowledging both.

[bornadog]

I hope we are not going down the path of clapping our team off the ground after a creditable loss.

Apparently Macca was pissed off when some fans were clapping the team off the ground.

We lost and I hate that, especially when it was winnable.

[Ghost Dog]

What's this 'individual wins'? Is it tennis or golf?
It's a team game. Who barracks for one player?

Oh so when we lose from now on, you will not be picking out individuals for criticism. After all, it is a team game :rolleyes:

[Desipura]

Apparently Macca was pissed off when some fans were clapping the team off the ground.

We lost and I hate that, especially when it was winnable.

There you go, I'm not the only one.

[Ghost Dog]

Apparently Macca was pissed off when some fans were clapping the team off the ground.

We lost and I hate that, especially when it was winnable.


Press conf suggests otherwise.

[Ghost Dog]

There you go, I'm not the only one.

No proof he thought this. Just what someone thought someone else said or did.
The presser was quite balanced, and the tone positive. As in keeping with the overall game.

[bornadog]

Press conf suggests otherwise.

Listening to him on the radio and also Chris Grant is different than what you are saying.

[Eastdog]

I 100% agree that when we lose it is not a good thing at all and that we need to see areas we need to improve but as Ghost Dog has said at the same time I do agree that you can have a gallant defeat like the one we had last night and still be fairly happy walking away from the ground. The problem for me is we just don't have those 'match winners' in our team and that is one thing that let us down in us not winning because we were with the Pies for the whole night.

[Ghost Dog]

I totally agree with this. Not sure where I was criticizing anyone
"Surely we are not going back to the days of celebrating an honorable loss"
That sounds like something you would rather fans didn't.

[bornadog]

"Surely we are not going back to the days of celebrating an honorable loss"
That sounds like something you would rather fans didn't.

Sounds like your the one celebrating an honourable loss. I for one hate honourable losses.

[Ghost Dog]

Sounds like your the one celebrating an honourable loss. I for one hate honourable losses.

Last night was an entertaining battle, good to watch, with lots of promise for the future. Lots of previously maligned players did great things. That's worth getting excited about. Boyd had a cracker of a game. That smother to stop a goal was awesome. Lake, who had a shocking year last year looked up and about. Easton Wood did the things you know he is capable of against a strong side: not just a minor opponent.
Hargrave, who has battled with injury and had woeful form kept us in it. Mitch Wallis, who this time last year some thought might need another few years in the seconds, came on and immediately found the ball. Gia, a much maligned player on the forums did a fantastic job against Harry O, a taller and stronger opponent. He outsmarted him.
Cross, who's kicking has been his weakness was an important link player. There were positives all over the ground, that, unfortunately, we just couldn't sustain.

[Eastdog]

Sounds like your the one celebrating an honourable loss. I for one hate honourable losses.

Do you believe bornadog though that it was a gallant defeat with the way we have gone in the season in our 6 matches so far.

[Stefcep]

I wonder if we'd ever see threads like these on Collingwood forums?

When the final siren blew, they cut to a close up of Pendlebury's face. A smug wink to a team mate that to me said: "Job done, 4 points. Like it was never in doubt. Let them be happy with their honourable loss"

[bornadog]

Do you believe bornadog though that it was a gallant defeat with the way we have gone in the season in our 6 matches so far.

I believe we should have won and some seniors players let is down in the last quarter with their turnovers and I am disppointed.

[GVGjr]

Too much credit I believe. Great effort but we lost.

So it's as simple as a win is good and a loss is bad? I actually thought we played better last night with the loss than we did last week with the win.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

However, because of our form to round 5, I was really pleased to see how well the Doggies went last night, they defied the predictions of the "experts" and they played like they wanted to win, got pipped late but I reckon if they can perform to that standard every week and keep improving a bit we'll be back as a side that wins more than it loses.:D

Not sure about the above statement, we have only put in one really poor performance this year. And it was extremely disappointing.

For me we seem to work better than other games and our back line was again the highlight with the midfield not far behind, I still have concerns about our delivery into the forward line and why the hell we let them have a spare man in defense in the 3rd quarter. maned him up in the last but the horse had bolted.

poor coaching cost us this one and I thought it was the most even team effort all year. lets hope the boys can build on this effort as Norf next week will be a tougher game than last night.

[Ghost Dog]

I wonder if we'd ever see threads like these on Collingwood forums?

When the final siren blew, they cut to a close up of Pendlebury's face. A smug wink to a team mate that to me said: "Job done, 4 points. Like it was never in doubt. Let them be happy with their honourable loss"

By the way how much did you predict we would be beaten by?
Save me the trouble of going to find the post on the game prediction thread.

[LostDoggy]

Oh so when we lose from now on, you will not be picking out individuals for criticism. After all, it is a team game :rolleyes:

I look for the team result first and foremost. Dont understand why anyone would look at it diferently. Individual wins or loses come well after.

If was just barracking for or critisizing individuals then I wouldn't bother with team sports.

[Ghost Dog]

I look for the team result first and foremost. Dont understand why anyone would look at it diferently. Individual wins or loses come well after.

If was just barracking for or critisizing individuals then I wouldn't bother with team sports.

They had a 9 day break. They had quality players in their forward and backline ( All Australian quality ) YET we worked ourselves into a winning position.
How much did you predict we would lose by last week?

[LostDoggy]

So it's as simple as a win is good and a loss is bad? I actually thought we played better last night with the loss than we did last week with the win.
Probably. Result first, way we played second priority.
We might have played better this week but at least we got the points.
My gripe is either way. We win ugly and all we get is negative threads, now it's a spirited loss, we way too many positive spin threads.

[LostDoggy]

They had a 9 day break. They had quality players in their forward and backline ( All Australian quality ) YET we worked ourselves into a winning position.
How much did you predict we would lose by last week?

? I want us to win every week.

[Ghost Dog]

? I want us to win every week.

What was your game day prediction last week? I think most posters suggested we would lose badly.

[westdog54]

Probably. Result first, way we played second priority.
We might have played better this week but at least we got the points.
My gripe is either way. We win ugly and all we get is negative threads, now it's a spirited loss, we way too many positive spin threads.

When we are where we're at as a club I don't agree that its 'result first', as you put it, or at least not the way you mean it.

For me, Easton Wood playing the way he did before he went off is a good result. Libba and Roughead playing the way they did is a his result. Lake back to his best is a good result. I could go on.

Results to me mean more than wins or losses. Results mean premierships and last night was a step along the path.

Surely we're allowed to pick out a few individual performances from last night and applaud them, whilst still being disappointed that we lost. Why does out have to be one or the other?

[Eastdog]

? I want us to win every week.

We wish that was the case.

[Remi Moses]

Press conf suggests otherwise.

Chris Grant begs to differ. He confirmed the coach was peed off with fans clapping the team off.
I love it !!! We're in the win loss business, not honorable losses.

[Eastdog]

Chris Grant begs to differ. He confirmed the coach was peed off with fans clapping the team off.
I love it !!! We're in the win loss business, not honorable losses.

Agree with what your saying Remi Moses but do you think when Ghost Dog suggests in that it was a good performance despite losing in that we are a club that has gone down from the heights of 08-10 and the expectations are not as high as they were given the current list.

[Remi Moses]

Agree with what your saying Remi Moses but do you think when Ghost Dog suggests in that it was a good performance despite losing in that we are a club that has gone down from the heights of 08-10 and the expectations are not as high as they were given the current list.

Agree, we're all happy with the effort.
But I'm with the coach, in no clapping of "effort".

[Remi Moses]

Probably. Result first, way we played second priority.
We might have played better this week but at least we got the points.
My gripe is either way. We win ugly and all we get is negative threads, now it's a spirited loss, we way too many positive spin threads.

It will be interesting how we go next week!

[Ghost Dog]

Chris Grant begs to differ. He confirmed the coach was peed off with fans clapping the team off.
I love it !!! We're in the win loss business, not honorable losses.

Bmac

" No, it wasn't a disappointing night " ( But was disappointing for the club )
" We did a lot right"
" We made some errors but every team makes them"
" We will become a club that fights to the death"

Reporter: " Was tonight encouraging Brendan?"
Bmac: " Oh definitely"

Do you forgive the costly turnovers?
" Absolutely"

So if fans can't express this sentiment in their own way, well too bad for those who don't like it.

[Stefcep]

By the way how much did you predict we would be beaten by?
Save me the trouble of going to find the post on the game prediction thread.

I didn't. Mainly because this Collingwood team is hard to guage. (My personal view of them is that they're a team of plodders made into a champion team by Mathouse, a case of the net being greater than the sum of its parts. Now that he's gone I think thats starting to show.)

Now here's some more of my ramblings: historically we seem to perform above expectations in games where we are the under-dogs, and then go to water when we're expectations are high eg recent pre-lims. (I am more worried about the North game than I was about this game) This is a cultural problem at the club, that gets transferred from senior players to junior players cyclically. Collingwood is not a team of gifted stars. Their poster boy Swan was put out of business by a simple hard-working toiler in Picken. But when a kid goes to club with lots of success, sees the Cups, sees the names, mingles with winning players he develops the mentality of a winner. They learn to expect to win. Its a confidence thing. And nothing generates confidence like winning.

What I would like to see the club do is to create a winning mentality, to get to that point where we EXPECT to win, so we too can wink to one another about finding a way to win. Even have an arrogance about us.

Whilst we are losing, yes acknowledge the improvement, but be much tougher on ourselves for the failings.

[Eastdog]

I didn't. Mainly because this Collingwood team is hard to guage. (My personal view of them is that they're a team of plodders made into a champion team by Mathouse, a case of the net being greater than the sum of its parts. Now that he's gone I think thats starting to show.)

Now here's some more of my ramblings: historically we seem to perform above expectations in games where we are the under-dogs, and then go to water when we're expectations are high eg recent pre-lims. (I am more worried about the North game than I was about this game) This is a cultural problem at the club, that gets transferred from senior players to junior players cyclically. Collingwood is not a team of gifted stars. Their poster boy Swan was put out of business by a simple hard-working toiler in Picken. But when a kid goes to club with lots of success, sees the Cups, sees the names, mingles with winning players he develops the mentality of a winner. They learn to expect to win. Its a confidence thing. And nothing generates confidence like winning.

What I would like to see the club do is to create a winning mentality, to get to that point where we EXPECT to win, so we too can wink to one another about finding a way to win. Even have an arrogance about us.

Whilst we are losing, yes acknowledge the improvement, but be much tougher on ourselves for the failings.

Agree. We should be more like that.

[Remi Moses]

Bmac

" No, it wasn't a disappointing night " ( But was disappointing for the club )
" We did a lot right"
" We made some errors but every team makes them"
" We will become a club that fights to the death"

Reporter: " Was tonight encouraging Brendan?"
Bmac: " Oh definitely"

Do you forgive the costly turnovers?
" Absolutely"

So if fans can't express this sentiment in their own way, well too bad for those who don't like it.
That's all good and well. You don't clap losses .
PERIOD

[Remi Moses]

I didn't. Mainly because this Collingwood team is hard to guage. (My personal view of them is that they're a team of plodders made into a champion team by Mathouse, a case of the net being greater than the sum of its parts. Now that he's gone I think thats starting to show.)

Now here's some more of my ramblings: historically we seem to perform above expectations in games where we are the under-dogs, and then go to water when we're expectations are high eg recent pre-lims. (I am more worried about the North game than I was about this game) This is a cultural problem at the club, that gets transferred from senior players to junior players cyclically. Collingwood is not a team of gifted stars. Their poster boy Swan was put out of business by a simple hard-working toiler in Picken. But when a kid goes to club with lots of success, sees the Cups, sees the names, mingles with winning players he develops the mentality of a winner. They learn to expect to win. Its a confidence thing. And nothing generates confidence like winning.

What I would like to see the club do is to create a winning mentality, to get to that point where we EXPECT to win, so we too can wink to one another about finding a way to win. Even have an arrogance about us.

Whilst we are losing, yes acknowledge the improvement, but be much tougher on ourselves for the failings.
Great post

[Ghost Dog]

That's all good and well. You don't clap losses .
PERIOD

You support you way. Others will do it their way.

[Ghost Dog]

Collingwood is not a team of gifted stars. Their poster boy Swan was put out of business by a simple hard-working toiler in Picken. But when a kid goes to club with lots of success, sees the Cups, sees the names, mingles with winning players he develops the mentality of a winner. They learn to expect to win. Its a confidence thing. And nothing generates confidence like winning.

What I would like to see the club do is to create a winning mentality, to get to that point where we EXPECT to win, so we too can wink to one another about finding a way to win. Even have an arrogance about us.

Whilst we are losing, yes acknowledge the improvement, but be much tougher on ourselves for the failings.

Pendlebury is not a gifted star? Cloke has no talent? Sidebottom? These are premiership, All Australians. Not a team of stars, they had a few outs, but they had some very good players on the park last night.

Acknowledging improvement is what the thread is all about. Everyone wants to build a ruthless, winning culture. And some of what we saw last night showed glimpses of it. Worth noting.

[Stefcep]

You support you way. Others will do it there way.

their

[Ghost Dog]

their

Nothing to do with grammar. Spelling :D

[Stefcep]

Pendlebury is not a gifted star? Cloke has no talent? Sidebottom? These are premiership, All Australians. Not a team of stars, they had a few outs, but they had some very good players on the park last night.

Acknowledging improvement is what the thread is all about. Everyone wants to build a ruthless, winning culture. And some of what we saw last night showed glimpses of it. Worth noting.

it wasn't that long ago that Pendlebury was a pimple-faced skinny kid getting knocked off the ball who wore long sleeves to hide his absence of muscle. It wasn't that long ago that Cloke was one of the least accurate forwards going around. Its not that long ago that we had a side full of players that toyed with Collingwood.


We had the players to win at least 3 flags in the not too distant past. Collingwood took it to the next level, and we got nada.We choked. Its mental.

[Stefcep]

Nothing to do with grammar. Spelling :D

yeah you will say that now:)

[Maddog37]

I am happy to clap and support the players when they have given an honest effort.

Not rapturous standing ovations for getting close but an acknowledgement and encouragement to persist.

[F'scary]

Not sure about the above statement, we have only put in one really poor performance this year. And it was extremely disappointing.

For me we seem to work better than other games and our back line was again the highlight with the midfield not far behind, I still have concerns about our delivery into the forward line and why the hell we let them have a spare man in defense in the 3rd quarter. maned him up in the last but the horse had bolted.

poor coaching cost us this one and I thought it was the most even team effort all year. lets hope the boys can build on this effort as Norf next week will be a tougher game than last night.

I guess I was referring to the past 3 matches: StK, Dees & GWS. (You are no doubt referring to the StK game). Yes, we won the latter two. But we didn't look much better than the opposition who are generally considered in the three worst teams in the competition. In those 3 matches, we appeared to have gone backwards a long way from the first two games. It was a big shock.

Coaching: While the spare man in defence tactic worries me a bit too, I think Macca is doing well, certainly he hasn't put his foot in it like Neeld has in his short time at Melbourne.

[F'scary]

Bmac

" No, it wasn't a disappointing night " ( But was disappointing for the club )
" We did a lot right"
" We made some errors but every team makes them"
" We will become a club that fights to the death"

Reporter: " Was tonight encouraging Brendan?"
Bmac: " Oh definitely"

Do you forgive the costly turnovers?
" Absolutely"

So if fans can't express this sentiment in their own way, well too bad for those who don't like it.

On the coaching, Macca has shown in his short time in the chair that he knows how to deal with the media. He has shown he knows how to keep the players with him. This is good. Contrast Macca with Neeld to see how not to publically coach your side. It's taken Neeld one preseason & a few matches to have lost the players, to have set players against each other, to have lost the whole hearted support of the board & the football department & the supporters. Macca on the other hand has slotted in like an old pro. Mind you, Eade was similar.

[Eastdog]

I am happy to clap and support the players when they have given an honest effort.

Not rapturous standing ovations for getting close but an acknowledgement and encouragement to persist.

That's a good reaction to the game last night.

[AndrewP6]

On the coaching, Macca has shown in his short time in the chair that he knows how to deal with the media. He has shown he knows how to keep the players with him. This is good. Contrast Macca with Neeld to see how not to publically coach your side. It's taken Neeld one preseason & a few matches to have lost the players, to have set players against each other, to have lost the whole hearted support of the board & the football department & the supporters. Macca on the other hand has slotted in like an old pro. Mind you, Eade was similar.

Massive, massive call to say Neeld has lost the players and the club. Gut feeling or do you have proof of this? Which of their players has he "set against each other" ?

[LostDoggy]

Perspective here people. This wasn't Collingwood 2010/11 that we got close to last night. Why is it a big achievement to get close to a 6-9 position side? If it was WCE in subiaco I could understand the "wow what a great effort" posts. But 2012 Collingwood @ Etihad?
I'm happy some players found some form but will take an undefeated sloppy season over an well played loss. Unfortunately this mentality has been tattooed into the club and needs some serious laser surgery to remove it.

[Eastdog]

Perspective here people. This wasn't Collingwood 2010/11 that we got close to last night. Why is it a big achievement to get close to a 6-9 position side? If it was WCE in subiaco I could understand the "wow what a great effort" posts. But 2012 Collingwood @ Etihad?
I'm happy some players found some form but will take an undefeated sloppy season over an well played loss. Unfortunately this mentality has been tattooed into the club and needs some serious laser surgery to remove it.

We need to change that mentality and get that 'winning culture' at the club.

[AndrewP6]

Perspective here people. This wasn't Collingwood 2010/11 that we got close to last night. Why is it a big achievement to get close to a 6-9 position side? If it was WCE in subiaco I could understand the "wow what a great effort" posts. But 2012 Collingwood @ Etihad?
I'm happy some players found some form but will take an undefeated sloppy season over an well played loss. Unfortunately this mentality has been tattooed into the club and needs some serious laser surgery to remove it.

Because we can only dream of being sixth to 9th.

[Maddog37]

Regardless of who we play, it is about effort. Last night the effort was there. We are not that good at the moment but all you can ask is they play at 100%.

[AndrewP6]

We need to change that mentality and get that 'winning culture' at the club.

Tends to come with actually winning.

[LostDoggy]

Because we can only dream of being sixth to 9th.

Maybe, but it isn't an achievement to get close to beating them. Even if your having a bottom 3 season you don't hang your hat on a "almost beat the team that finished 6th".
To lay it out:

1. We won convincingly.
2. We won ugly.
3. Draw.
4. We lost honorably.
5. We got smashed.

People are saying "I am happy with #4 on this list. And if the Team, Coach, president thinks this way it equals "54 & no more" to quote someone on this forum? I know the team is rebuilding but please don't be happy about a loss, because our culture will never change.

[w3design]

GD, thanks for this thread. It's an interesting debate in a club like ours. Applauding good effort isn't the same as accepting mediocrity, or at least not in my book. Enjoying individual improvements, or being pleased to see a 'game within a game' where we can be happy that one player has improved or had a fantastic game, even within an overall disappointing performance.. They're not the same thing either, surely?

In a club like ours with so little success, they're valid questions though. I think of that stirring terry Wallace speech when, ironically enough, fans were clapping a gallant loss v the pies, and he screamed he would spew up if that kept happening. That footage was in that great doco Year of the Dogs, where we also saw those 2 wonderful female fans, mother and daughter, there rain, hail or shine, clapping the team as they ran the boundary at training, in one of our worst years. Who's to say they're wrong with their unwavering loyalty to the team, and who's to say that Wallace isn't right that our happy acceptance of a good effort isn't part of what's wrong with the very fabric of our club?

No answers from me, but I like reflecting on all the points of view in this debate.

[AndrewP6]

Maybe, but it isn't an achievement to get close to beating them. Even if your having a bottom 3 season you don't hang your hat on a "almost beat the team that finished 6th".
To lay it out:

1. We won convincingly.
2. We won ugly.
3. Draw.
4. We lost honorably.
5. We got smashed.

People are saying "I am happy with #4 on this list. And if the Team, Coach, president thinks this way it equals "54 & no more" to quote someone on this forum? I know the team is rebuilding but please don't be happy about a loss, because our culture will never change.

I'm not happy about it as such, but I went in there (and posted as much on Facebook!) fully expecting to get absolutely trounced, and we didn't. And that made it easier to handle the loss.

[Ghost Dog]

Maybe, but it isn't an achievement to get close to beating them. Even if your having a bottom 3 season you don't hang your hat on a "almost beat the team that finished 6th".
To lay it out:

1. We won convincingly.
2. We won ugly.
3. Draw.
4. We lost honorably.
5. We got smashed.

People are saying "I am happy with #4 on this list. And if the Team, Coach, president thinks this way it equals "54 & no more" to quote someone on this forum? I know the team is rebuilding but please don't be happy about a loss, because our culture will never change.

Nobody said anything about being happy about a loss. I think you have it all wrong. It's about a massive improvement and several players having impressive games. There is a bankers and anchors thread. This thread, for mine, is looking a bit more closely at the bankers we have.

And if they keep doing it, it's only a matter of time until we jag a few of those close ones.

[Ghost Dog]

Who's to say they're wrong with their unwavering loyalty to the team, and who's to say that Wallace isn't right that our happy acceptance of a good effort isn't part of what's wrong with the very fabric of our club?

No answers from me, but I like reflecting on all the points of view in this debate.

Great post R54. Some very very good points.

[FrediKanoute]

Hope we're not going down the old path of criticizing supporters for accepting mediocrity again. Reality is most on this board expected a humiliation last night including me. Was pleasantly surprised in the performance. Still a long way to go but I think most are simply looking for continuous improvement.

Next week will tell the real story. We need to back up that effort with more of the same.

Couldn't agree more. I hate losing, but watching the guys keep it a contest and a winnable contest for 3.5 quarters was great. To me it showed that the game plan being developed is slowly starting to come together which bodes well for the latter part of 2012. Disappointing we lost but definitely encouraging signs.

[Desipura]

Sounds like your the one celebrating an honourable loss. I for one hate honourable losses.

I don't know what just happened there, Ghost dog was quoting himself but making out like I said it, bizarre.

[stefoid]

Too much credit I believe. Great effort but we lost.

Theres no 'we're good again' switch. Getting good again is going to take time. Last night was definitely improvement.

[Eastdog]

Theres no 'we're good again' switch. Getting good again is going to take time. Last night was definitely improvement.

It is a matter of patience. We will come good again but it will take time. I agree that last night was a good sign.

[FrediKanoute]

I hope we are not going down the path of clapping our team off the ground after a creditable loss.

I think we are in a rebuild so clapping effort is probably a realistic thing to be doing at the moment.....last night game was a great effort especially pleasing that the guys who played well were the younger guys and not the class of 2000.

[LostDoggy]

So it's as simple as a win is good and a loss is bad? .

Short answer. Yes


I actually thought we played better last night with the loss than we did last week with the win.

Don't worry about the "thought" we did play better against Collingwood. But which do you rather the loss or the win?

[The Underdog]

Is it possible that I like following football slightly less after reading this thread?
The theory that people can't clap their team off after a loss is frankly baffling. Football supporters do and will do whatever they want at the football. Is people clapping their players off after a loss worse than a supporter maligning a player from their own team for 120 minutes during a win? Does it contribute more to an overall losing aesthetic throughout the history of a team? Does it make a jot of *!*!*!*!ing difference? I'd suggest no. Are Geelong currently a successful team because their supporters stopped applauding effort around 2006 or because they drafted magnificently and installed a game plan that had complete buy in from those players?

I distinctly remember after a 1 point loss to Geelong at Docklands making the effort to walk over to the race and clap the players off, because they had played magnificently and left everything on the ground. Did my accepting effort over result contribute to us not winning the premiership that year or since?

Was I happy after Friday night?
Kind of. I thought our game had come together for longer and more completely than it had in any game this season and we'd shown improvement.
Was I disappointed at the result? Absolutely.
Maybe I'm too accepting of the middle ground but realistically among 25000 members, people will react differently to different situations and to say one is right or wrong when the ultimate influence on result is almost negligible, seems pointless.
Ghost Dog started this thread to acknowledge some positives out of Friday night. It's devolved into a back and forth about supporter involvement which I've now contributed to (or not). I don't think we can deny there were positives out of Friday. Winning the game wasn't one of them.

[LostDoggy]

It is a matter of patience. We will come good again but it will take time. I agree that last night was a good sign.

Sorry I'm a bit sick of being patience. Good times come again? Unfortunately I missed the one and only time.
Taking time? Isn't nearly 60 years enough.

[Ghost Dog]

I don't know what just happened there, Ghost dog was quoting himself but making out like I said it, bizarre.


I hope we are not going down the path of clapping our team off the ground after a creditable loss.

And I notice I\m not the only one that is happy to encourage a team in development, while being disappointed with the loss.

Proud of the effort the lads showed, but do not accept that is the best they can do.

[GVGjr]

Don't worry about the "thought" we did play better against Collingwood. But which do you rather the loss or the win?

Does this question really need to be asked? The thread title is "credit where it is due" and I think Friday nights effort was pretty good. We would all prefer a win but I see no problems with acknowledging a good performance even in a loss. Tough talk is just that and it won't change the outcome of games.

[LostDoggy]

Last night a great deal many individuals who are often potted on these forums had amazing match day moments. These are not consistent efforts over a period of time, granted.
However, time to identify which player has frustrated you, and why their effort and impact on the game was positive to you last night.

Was out of my seat with Easton Wood's game. The obvious turnaround in form.

Cross was great last night, and was an important player. Someone mentioned 91% by foot. Well done Crossy.

It really did,nt surprise me that your thread was detonated off the rails GD

I was happy to give Mark Austin some credit

It would be good if some posts were actually in line with the thread , I,m interested in reading about other peoples positive posts about an individual player

.

[Eastdog]

Is it possible that I like following football slightly less after reading this thread?
The theory that people can't clap their team off after a loss is frankly baffling. Football supporters do and will do whatever they want at the football. Is people clapping their players off after a loss worse than a supporter maligning a player from their own team for 120 minutes during a win? Does it contribute more to an overall losing aesthetic throughout the history of a team? Does it make a jot of *!*!*!*!ing difference? I'd suggest no. Are Geelong currently a successful team because their supporters stopped applauding effort around 2006 or because they drafted magnificently and installed a game plan that had complete buy in from those players?

I distinctly remember after a 1 point loss to Geelong at Docklands making the effort to walk over to the race and clap the players off, because they had played magnificently and left everything on the ground. Did my accepting effort over result contribute to us not winning the premiership that year or since?

Was I happy after Friday night?
Kind of. I thought our game had come together for longer and more completely than it had in any game this season and we'd shown improvement.
Was I disappointed at the result? Absolutely.
Maybe I'm too accepting of the middle ground but realistically among 25000 members, people will react differently to different situations and to say one is right or wrong when the ultimate influence on result is almost negligible, seems pointless.
Ghost Dog started this thread to acknowledge some positives out of Friday night. It's devolved into a back and forth about supporter involvement which I've now contributed to (or not). I don't think we can deny there were positives out of Friday. Winning the game wasn't one of them.

Good post The Underdog.

[F'scary]

Massive, massive call to say Neeld has lost the players and the club. Gut feeling or do you have proof of this? Which of their players has he "set against each other" ?

From reading the news in the papers (& sorry cannot lay hands on quotes), shortly after taking office, Neeld effectively demoted the players in the leadership group (including captains) & promoted young, more or less untried players into the leadership group, including a co-captaincy arrangement between two younger players. This has caused friction.

His manner at the first couple of post match press conferences came across as blame the players - e.g. he made a bitter sounding crack along the lines of "well, I won't be taking the same midfield with me" after round 1 in response about preparing for the next game. He then spent time during the week trying to water down or remodel how he had came across and what he had said.

Then there was the curious incident where Mifsud appeared to have disclosed a private conversation with Aaron Davey which he then belatedly had to backtrack on to, it seemed to me, avoid further harming Davey (who was also very angry with Mifsud) by saying he had misquoted or wrongly identified Davey. Either way you choose to interpret the incident there is a problem with the coach: if he didn't treat the indiginous players differently (patronisingly), then why did Davey, a senior player, have a conversation with Mifsud (whose side the AFL took) - implication is that he must have a serious problem with the coach. If Neeld did treat players differently, then he caused friction with one or more of his players. Of course, you may choose to believe that there was a complete misunderstanding between Mifsud & Davey over what was said in their conversation.

But maybe you are correct and I've made far to massive a call on Neeld. I just reckon Macca would have done things differently (& better) from day one based on what he has done with us.

[LostDoggy]

Does this question really need to be asked? The thread title is "credit where it is due" and I think Friday nights effort was pretty good. We would all prefer a win but I see no problems with acknowledging a good performance even in a loss. Tough talk is just that and it won't change the outcome of games.

As wont painting pretty pictures.
My gripe was that there were 2 positive post threads after the pies game before this thread was started.

[LostDoggy]

Mark Austin just knuckled down and competed with Dawes , got out positioned a couple of times and was caught out by Dawes ability to tap to advantage but he justified the faith in him to get the job done , we threw him a lifeline to get his career back on track , with Williams out and Markovic out we needed another tall defender to shoulder the load and Mark certainly took up the challenge

http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/AFL+Rd+6+Western+Bulldogs+v+Collingwood+B-NrBsP7Lpsl.jpg


.

Pleased to read this about Austin. Interestingly, I had a couple of mates who follow other teams comment that Mark Austin looked like a handy player too.

[bornadog]

Pleased to read this about Austin. Interestingly, I had a couple of mates who follow other teams comment that Mark Austin looked like a handy player too.

Played an excellent game and kept Dawes pretty quiet on the night. I think he will be very handy for us and still only 23.

[always right]

As wont painting pretty pictures.
My gripe was that there were 2 positive post threads after the pies game before this thread was started.

If you were quick enough you could have started your own critical thread first.

I'm not satisfied with the loss but considering where our team is at the moment, the fact we lack the quality of previous years, and the fact that the coach is only 6 rounds in.....I'm happy to acknowledge the improvement. Next week will tell the full story however.

[Eastdog]

If you were quick enough you could have started your own critical thread.

I'm not satisfied with the loss but considering where our team is at the moment, the fact we lack the quality of previous years, and the fact that the coach is only 6 rounds in.....I'm happy to acknowledge e improvement. Next week will tell the full story however.

Last year when we beat Carlton who were looking very strong the next week against North we struggled after everyone thought we were going to win. Hopefully next week this doesn't happen and we come out of the blocks once again. North will be coming of the Perth tdothan that might be in our favour. If we win against North then next match against GC should also be a win as well but we must take it one step at a time.

[LostDoggy]

The thread title is "credit where it is due" and I think Friday nights effort was pretty good.
Is pretty good = credit where it is due?
I guess I'm a bit like Chops, the culture needs to change. 60 yrs is long enough. I know we can't win 'em all but I can't be happy about almost beating a team that isn't a top 4 side.
The best way to put it is what was previously mentioned, "do you think a Collingwood, Essendon or Geelong forum would have a thread like this?"


. Tough talk is just that and it won't change the outcome of games.

What do you mean by tough talk?

[westdog54]

As wont painting pretty pictures.
My gripe was that there were 2 positive post threads after the pies game before this thread was started.

And you felt that derailing one of them was the way to go? I've known you for a while now, and I think you're better than that.

You've got a right to express an opinion but why pour scorn on those expressing a bit of optimism after a miserable month of football?


Is pretty good = credit where it is due?
I guess I'm a bit like Chops, the culture needs to change. 60 yrs is long enough. I know we can't win 'em all but I can't be happy about almost beating a team that isn't a top 4 side.
The best way to put it is what was previously mentioned, "do you think a Collingwood, Essendon or Geelong forum would have a thread like this?"


When we're a bottom six side who has played deat set terribly for 18 months, I'll happily pull a few positives from 'almost beating' a team that's made the last 2 grand finals and contains the likes of Cloke, Pendlebury, Swan, Sidebottom and H.Shaw, while still being dissapointed about the end result.

None of Collingwood, Essendon or Geelong will finish in the bottom six this year, so as far as I'm concerned your question isn't all that relevant at the moment.

[GVGjr]

What do you mean by tough talk?

"Tough talk" about not acknowledging a good effort in a loss. A lot of people can only focus on win when gauging the progress of a team and that is fair enough if you have a quality team but the fact is that our list has been poorly managed for a few seasons and we are paying the price for it. I'll continue to look a little deeper about how we are performing than just the win loss column.

In my opinion you don't have to win a Brownlow to be regarded as a good player (and I hope the umpires don't overlook the effort of Griffen on Friday night because we lost) and while we aren't genuine contenders I can accept some losses as still being a positive for the club.

[Rocco Jones]

I was very happy with the effort and not the result, the oppsite of last week against GWS.

I struggle to see how a Dogs fan can be happier with the performance against GWS than the Pies.t

There are so many elements in a game to be pleased/displeased about but overall I was very pleased with Friday night's performance. I loved our effort and for the majority of the game were we balanced toughness with increased spread and movement (my favourite part).

What I didn't like was when we stopped moving just before HT and seemingly lack the belief in clutch moments. I am with BMac with his approach to building confidence though. I don't think you do it by constantly blasting players.

[LostDoggy]

And you felt that derailing one of them was the way to go? I've known you for a while now, and I think you're better than that.
If I wanted to derail the thread, I didn't do it very well as this thread is now 5 pages long. It probably would have seen little activity if it was just all positive.
I merely said too much credit has been given in a game we lost.


You've got a right to express an opinion but why pour scorn on those expressing a bit of optimism after a miserable month of football?
Mainly because bit has turned into a lot.

[LostDoggy]

I was very happy with the effort and not the result, the oppsite of last week against GWS.

I struggle to see how a Dogs fan can be happier with the performance against GWS than the Pies.
I was happier because we got the points.
Last week to much was written on how badly we played. Gws set themselves for a win, we started poorly, they got the umpiring and we still won easily. This week they showed for 3 qtrs they aren't that bad.
This week it's the opposite.

[Raw Toast]

Is it possible that I like following football slightly less after reading this thread?
The theory that people can't clap their team off after a loss is frankly baffling. Football supporters do and will do whatever they want at the football. Is people clapping their players off after a loss worse than a supporter maligning a player from their own team for 120 minutes during a win? Does it contribute more to an overall losing aesthetic throughout the history of a team? Does it make a jot of *!*!*!*!ing difference? I'd suggest no. Are Geelong currently a successful team because their supporters stopped applauding effort around 2006 or because they drafted magnificently and installed a game plan that had complete buy in from those players?

I distinctly remember after a 1 point loss to Geelong at Docklands making the effort to walk over to the race and clap the players off, because they had played magnificently and left everything on the ground. Did my accepting effort over result contribute to us not winning the premiership that year or since?

Was I happy after Friday night?
Kind of. I thought our game had come together for longer and more completely than it had in any game this season and we'd shown improvement.
Was I disappointed at the result? Absolutely.
Maybe I'm too accepting of the middle ground but realistically among 25000 members, people will react differently to different situations and to say one is right or wrong when the ultimate influence on result is almost negligible, seems pointless.
Ghost Dog started this thread to acknowledge some positives out of Friday night. It's devolved into a back and forth about supporter involvement which I've now contributed to (or not). I don't think we can deny there were positives out of Friday. Winning the game wasn't one of them.

Great post Underdog.

I was very disappointed that we lost, but it was a heartening game in many ways.

It's not that it was an honorable loss, it's that we showed we could play a style of game that IF we can keep it up (and of course that is a fairly big if, but it is what we're building towards), will bring us back into contention (not this year of course, but you have to build towards sustained success and then hope for the luck that it takes to win a flag).

To be more precise, we showed for significant patches, that we could win the ball well and move it quickly, spreading the best we've done for awhile (and definitely under McCartney).

Not only that, certain players showed that they were developing and learning. Wood for instance, had a massive game where he showed that he was starting to 'get' what he has to do to be an effective player. That is, go for his marks (which he started doing late against the Dees I think, though it might have been the Saints), and then burst away from opponents. I really hope his hamstring doesn't curtail this, but it was the first time for ages that he looked like he knew what to do, and I think credit needs to be given to him and the coaches.

Among other bits, Austin showed that he has great hands once the ball hits the deck and is good in the air when (and again a big when) he doesn't allow the opponent to outbody him. Lake showed that he can recapture his elite form and dominated Cloke in a most pleasing manner (again, he stuffed up at a key moment, but was super impressive and you'd take that game from Lake every week I reckon).

There's still issues, the players couldn't continue to play the game style when they were very fatigued (though giving us a 6 day break compared to the Pies 10 day break seems a significant disadvantage). And BMac was grumpy about some of them running ahead of the ball at key moments. Nevertheless, the game was a positive sign that we are building in a good way, and if we can repeat the effort and continue to improve on the ball movement and spread then we'll soon be back to the joys of complaining about not winning in a perfect enough manner.

Another thing to add. We had some big moments in the first half where we seemed to be beating the Pies structurally, which is a big plus I think.

[LostDoggy]

"Tough talk" about not acknowledging a good effort in a loss. A lot of people can only focus on win when gauging the progress of a team and that is fair enough if you have a quality team but the fact is that our list has been poorly managed for a few seasons and we are paying the price for it. I'll continue to look a little deeper about how we are performing than just the win loss column.

In my opinion you don't have to win a Brownlow to be regarded as a good player (and I hope the umpires don't overlook the effort of Griffen on Friday night because we lost) and while we aren't genuine contenders I can accept some losses as still being a positive for the club.

I'm 50-50 with you on this one. #1 is the result and after that break apart the game and find what did and didn't work. I guess the "what worked" is what Ghosty was trying to get out of this topic. If so we kind of cover that in the Bankers and anchors.
But I cannot agree with your last statement, there is no positive in losses just learnings. Good and bad.
Each to their own though, I can respect your opinion.

[AndrewP6]

I'm 50-50 with you on this one. #1 is the result and after that break apart the game and find what did and didn't work. I guess the "what worked" is what Ghosty was trying to get out of this topic. If so we kind of cover that in the Bankers and anchors.
But I cannot agree with your last statement, there is no positive in losses just learnings. Good and bad.
Each to their own though, I can respect your opinion.

Learning is positive.

[LostDoggy]

Learning is positive.

Not when it's the same lesson that you thought you learnt already.

[comrade]

I was happier because we got the points.
Last week to much was written on how badly we played. Gws set themselves for a win, we started poorly, they got the umpiring and we still won easily. This week they showed for 3 qtrs they aren't that bad.
This week it's the opposite.

Of course, a win is better than a loss and you were happier with the result last week, but surely you can't have been happier with the performance.

[LostDoggy]

Of course, a win is better than a loss and you were happier with the result last week, but surely you can't have been happier with the performance.

Performance yes.
I already said I prefer an ugly win over a honorable loss.

[Ghost Dog]

Was I disappointed at the result? Absolutely.
Maybe I'm too accepting of the middle ground but realistically among 25000 members, people will react differently to different situations and to say one is right or wrong when the ultimate influence on result is almost negligible, seems pointless.
Ghost Dog started this thread to acknowledge some positives out of Friday night. It's devolved into a back and forth about supporter involvement which I've now contributed to (or not). I don't think we can deny there were positives out of Friday. Winning the game wasn't one of them.

Great post. The title of the thread was 'credit where it is due'. Perhaps I should have added the caveat, " and nothing more".




In addition, I don't think wins and losses can be viewed in isolation from both the season, and for what they reveal of future chances. So, an ugly win in which we play footy that won't have much chance of success against better teams, is not necessarily as heartening to me as a loss in which we show we're putting together some kind of fundamentals that are likely to bring lots of future success...

Right. Especially heartening at the START of a season, which gives the fans hope for more to come in 2012. Also, with early signs of improvement, it makes it clear the coach is getting through to the players.

[Raw Toast]

Performance yes.
I already said I prefer an ugly win over a honorable loss.

I sort of agree with you, but I also want us to be playing a style of footy that is enjoyable to watch - to be more precise, I want us to be winning the contested ball, and fierce at the contest generally, but also to move the ball quickly. In other words, more like Geelong than the Saints under Ross Lyon. And so I enjoyed the way we moved the ball, particularly early.

In addition, I don't think wins and losses can be viewed in isolation from both the season, and for what they reveal of future chances. So, an ugly win in which we play footy that won't have much chance of success against better teams, is not necessarily as heartening to me as a loss in which we show we're putting together some kind of fundamentals that are likely to bring lots of future success...

[AndrewP6]

Not when it's the same lesson that you thought you learnt already.

A good indication that the learning hasn't been effective.

On Friday night, I learnt that Easton Wood can offer us some great rebound and run from the back 50. I learnt that we are capable of run and spread (if only for a short while). I learnt that Brian Lake is not dead yet (to paraphrase Monty Python). I learnt that Mark Austin might just be handy for us.

[LostDoggy]

Learning is positive.

I'll meet you half way and say, the effective results from your learnings are a positive. So next week would tell that one?
If a Backman got 15 goals kicked on him and he learnt what he did wrong, then kept the next FWD kickless, his learning was a positive. Getting 15 goals kicked on you is not positive.

[AndrewP6]

I'll meet you half way and say, the effective results from your learnings are a positive. So next week would tell that one?
If a Backman got 15 goals kicked on him and he learnt what he did wrong, then kept the next FWD kickless, his learning was a positive. Getting 15 goals kicked on you is not positive.

I'm not sure of your point. The 'effective results' come as a result of learning. If you get 15 kicked on you, and the following week go out and make the same mistakes, then learning hasn't been successful - or you're too far off the mark for any learning to take place. Getting a bag (or in your example, a truckload) kicked on you can be used as a positive if you learn from what happened, and endeavour to modify your gameplay/rectify your mistakes.

[LostDoggy]

At the time though. Not positive.

[AndrewP6]

At the time though. Not positive.

Well, you could say that about a zillion games and events within games. Big picture is that positives can come from negatives.

[LostDoggy]

Well, you could say that about a zillion games and events within games. Big picture is that positives can come from negatives.

Exactly! That's why I'm saying learnings are not positives. Positive things can eventually come from learnings but at the time, a harsh negative is exactly that. What happens next is where your argument is going. eg. Learn from it, positive outcome etc.

[AndrewP6]

Exactly! That's why I'm saying learnings are not positives. Positive things can eventually come from learnings but at the time, a harsh negative is exactly that. What happens next is where your argument is going. eg. Learn from it, positive outcome etc.

OK fair enough, I just can't concur that learnings are not positives. Agree to disagree.

[LostDoggy]

OK fair enough, Agree to disagree.

Well we are Dogs supporters so we are probably both wrong? ;)

[AndrewP6]

Well we are Dogs supporters so we are probably both wrong? ;)

Hahaha...

[westbulldog]

I thought the game against Collingwood was a damn good effort. The team is re-building with some very talented young blokes coming along. i.e Dalhaus, Libba, Wallis, Wood, Markovic, Jones, Roughhead. Against Collingwood I thought Minson, Cross, Griffin, Picken, Lake and Hargrave all played well. A few turnovers cost us, so what, give them a break.

[Ozza]

I'm a little bit reserved in my judgement about the Collingwood game until I see how we play this week and next.

I left fairly satisfied that we played much better footy this week - and took it up to a good opponent. But if we play badly against North this week (and go backwards) then the 'honorable loss' and signs of improvement don't mean anything.

I just think it gets put into perspective a bit if the positive signs don't continue and get turned into wins.

I can understand the discontent about applauding an 'honorable loss'....as Plough would say "What does a good effort get you? You don't get a point, they don't give us anything!". But it was a far more enjoyable game to watch than the last time we were at Etihad!

[LostDoggy]

You are mistaking me if you I'm one of the accept mediocrity brigade. I was pleased with the effort but would take an ugly win over a spirited loss every time.

The fact is you measure the performance on win or losses. Credit for the effort only to a point.

When you're a serious flag contender, yes. When you're rebuilding your list (which we are, despite what the club might say to prospective members) then you need to dive a bit deeper than the win/loss column in the newspaper.

You don't like hearing positives after a win, and I can sympathise. I've been waiting 30 years for a flag myself, as we all have. In this case, it's your issue, not ours, and not really the clubs. They can't change the past mate.

Unless you want to specifically dispute the positives that others have raised — Mark Austin, Easton Wood, Cross's efficiency by foot, etc — then your argument really just reflects an impatience and is built on a bias due to weariness, the long years without any premiership success, rather than an honest, unbiased assessment of the game, played in a large part by young kids who weren't around the last time we fell short (2009 for mine was the last honest shot we had).


Provided his form warrants it, my preference would be for Wallis to play every game. He seems to have improved in every aspect of his game and I think his development will skyrocket if he can get some continuity at the top level. Looks to have turned a corner IMO, and is a player in the making.

Love the kid. But I've probably got a case of the rose-coloured-glasses as his old man is my all-time favourite player. His last few games have been something extra, and I can see him growing into a very handy player. He is a ball magnet.


I hope we are not going down the path of clapping our team off the ground after a creditable loss.

I hope we are not going down the path of writing off anything we try to build upon, as this path only ends with a prematurely-sacked coach and another rebuild.

We all need to remember that 60 years without a flag is not the fault of anybody at the club in this day and age. Lambast them for the last 10-15 years, by all means. But when you look at it that way, 10-15 years isn't so shameful as 60, is it?

I prefer to look at the hilt rather than the tip of the sword. We're a lot stronger than we were in the late 90s, in terms of club stability. We have a good coach, he may not be great yet, we don't know, but he's good enough for the job he has and so far he looks to be on the right track. That's what's important.

Geelong lost a bucketload of finals before they broke their drought. Stick fat.

[DragzLS1]

Some good posts here.

I think the fact that we are in a rebuilding stage has to be taken into consideration. If the younger players show signs of improvement (which they did Friday night) then we have to take that positive out of that game. We were giving it to them the whole time and the last 10min of the gameour best kick in Murphy made a shocking error! then that led to Higgens giving Harry a goal and Addison. So all but the last 10min of that game was positive and showed that we are improving.

I hate lossing as much as anybody! But will pay credit where it is due! And all the boys deserve a pat on the back for there performance. Then they can go into this week on a positive note and work on those errors made at the crucial time of the game. Lets be honest we arnt winning a premiership this year, so you would rather it happen now and the players learn as soona s possible then happen in 3-4 years time in a GF.

Lets go show north how its done now so we can have more positivity on this forum :)

[Greystache]

I hate losing, and think clapping the team off the ground and patting them on the back during the week for an honorable loss contributes to a losing culture, but I also accept that AFL is a cyclical competition these days, and we are at the bottom of a rebuild. So I think Friday was a good effort and something to build on, however if we're still dropping games like that in 2 years time I will be very unhappy.