We need to talk about Liam

[Rocco Jones]

Pretty much everyon on the board seem to be of the view that Liam is really struggling short term but will be a valuable asset now. I think we need to look at 3 aspects of Liam at the moment. Confidence/long term development, form and value to the team/his replacement.

Confidence/long term development
I have seen posters calling for him to go back to Willy for confidence rather than not being up to it reasons, which I find understandable. I do however find dropping a guy (at the end of the day that's what it is) purely for confidence reasons a tad oxymoronic. No matter how you sweeten it, being dropped is a dent to the confidence. If he goes back and finds form at Willy, he will still come back with doubts because it's just not the same level. If he goes back to Willy and doesn't dominate, the monster just gets bigger.

Form
It's a real hard one. Fans are saying it's down but his stats are pretty much the same as last year. He is getting the ball kicked to him more often but he is also getting more attention from the opposition and no help from Hall. Just a look at the stats, almost identical.

Contested marks, his strength= top 10 like last season
Disposals= 0.7 per game up from last season
Goals= 0.05 per game up from last season :)
Tackles= 0.7 down

Incredible how close everything is. He has been such a consistently 1 goal, 4 marks and 10 disposals per game type of player. I think it's less about his form being down (as I have said, his form line is as consistent as it gets) and more about him just not being good enough yet to meet such high expectations/needs.

Value to the team/his replacement
Ideally we would be playing at least 1 more KP forward but aren't due to a lack of quality (rightly so IMO).

When thinking of his replacement we need to remember the player would go straight into the #1 KP forward role up against the likes of Glass and getting the ball bombed int rather than directed at him. Due to lack of (quality) tall team mates, he will also be strongly outnumbered most times. Sounds like fun.

It's a massive physical battle. While Jones is raw, I think he is a lot stronger/ready for that battle than the likes of Cordy, Panos and Hill.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Basically I think the issue is less about Jones struggling as an individual and predominately about his role outweighing his talent at the moment. That will not change when he comes back from Willy and I think the inbalance will be even worse for the likes of Cordy, Panos and Hill.

As a sidenote, I think it's a massive case for playing mature bodied/minded guys to help support a kid's development. Along with Pia's stunning looks, it's paying the bills in the Miller household at the moment.

[bornadog]

I watched the replay this morning and also listened to Macca on SEN and have a different opinion on his form. He hardly received any passes on the chest. He made the best of his opportunities although he had a couple of shocking kicks at goal. I wouldn't be dropping him just yet. As Macca said Jones, Grant, Cordy and Roughead have to think about the next contest if they lose the first instead of dwelling on it.

[Rocco Jones]

I watched the replay this morning and also listened to Macca on SEN and have a different opinion on his form. He hardly received any passes on the chest. He made the best of his opportunities although he had a couple of shocking kicks at goal. I wouldn't be dropping him just yet. As Macca said Jones, Grant, Cordy and Roughead have to think about the next contest if they lose the first instead of dwelling on it.

Do you mean a different opinion to me? Sorry if I didn't make my one clear enough but I totally agree with you.

[SonofScray]

Good discussion. I am concerned that if we keep hammering him, he'll enact the play on words in the thread title and give new meaning to his role as a spearhead.

Keep him away from Willy is my gut feeling. Just checking that feeling against the fact his confidence looked shot last night.

[bornadog]

Do you mean a different opinion to me? Sorry if I didn't make my one clear enough but I totally agree with you.

No Rocco I agree with you. Should have said different opinion than some posters on other threads.

[whythelongface]

Basically I think the issue is less about Jones struggling as an individual and predominately about his role outweighing his talent at the moment. .

Think you have nailed it with this line. We are expecting huge things from a 4th year KPP to take over the role that Hall had previously filled, that being our go to man and leading goal kicker. It is a huge expectation on a fellow who is still so raw and has so much development left in him.

We need to give him time to develop. It is pity we don't have another KPP that can take some of the pressure off him. I don't think sending him back to Willy will help his cause. I would rather he stay in the 1sts and see if he can gradually adapt to being the number one go to man.

[Sedat]

Rocco, are you suggesting a strong bodied mature KPP from another club might be able to give a chop-out to Jones and actually help his development? Someone like a Schulz type maybe? :)

I like the idea but not a 1 season stop-gap (ie: the Chad). If there is someone out there who is under-utilised at their present club but can perform such a role, I'd be happy to look at them. I know I'm in the significant minority on woof, but Ed Barlow could have done a lot of the donkey work that Jones is currently forced to do.

[BulldogBelle]

Basically I think the issue is less about Jones struggling as an individual and predominately about his role outweighing his talent at the moment.

I agree with your points Rocco and Bornadog and especially the succinctness of the sentence above. The only small change I would make (which I believe is a more accurate characterization of the the situation):
"Basically I think the issue is less about Jones struggling as an individual and predominately about his role outweighing his experience (rather than talent) at the moment.

I think he has enough talent already, but he needs to get the learning and experience up to be able to apply and enable his talent.

[Ghost Dog]

Rocco, are you suggesting a strong bodied mature KPP from another club might be able to give a chop-out to Jones and actually help his development? Someone like a Schulz type maybe? :)

I like the idea but not a 1 season stop-gap (ie: the Chad). If there is someone out there who is under-utilised at their present club but can perform such a role, I'd be happy to look at them. I know I'm in the significant minority on woof, but Ed Barlow could have done a lot of the donkey work that Jones is currently forced to do.

Port Adelaide have some other guy called Chad this season. Are they all country and western fans down there or something??:D
Sedat, you are not alone. I though Barlow was worth holding on to.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I not one for dropping him, but I would not play him unless he is 100% fit. If he has any soreness give him a rest. I think about Jones just like Tom Hawkins from Geelong, he had all the expectations and hype but just needed to get games into him. Unlike Hawkins we dont have an Ottens, Mooney JPod to help him out so he gets the best backman and always doubled team.

I saw him last night get on a good lead and the ball kicked well over his head, what concerned me was he looked up the ground with the #$@! he should just worry about his own game, thats were Gia, Cooney etc come in. they should get around him and just keep him focused, he has shown the ability to want to just keep presenting and we don't want that to drop away.

Interesting also, I'm hope that Chris Grant is spending time with him more that Shannon Grant (our forward coach) as he needs a key position trainer not a midfield crumbier IMO

[Rocco Jones]

Rocco, are you suggesting a strong bodied mature KPP from another club might be able to give a chop-out to Jones and actually help his development? Someone like a Schulz type maybe? :)

I like the idea but not a 1 season stop-gap (ie: the Chad). If there is someone out there who is under-utilised at their present club but can perform such a role, I'd be happy to look at them. I know I'm in the significant minority on woof, but Ed Barlow could have done a lot of the donkey work that Jones is currently forced to do.

I wouldn't go for a 1 season stop-gap if it was primary to win more games unless we were a contender. I would look for a 1 season player if it would help look after a kid while he matures. You would want it to be short term anyway, 1 year of help beats nothing. That said, Chad probably isn't the type I would be looking at as he is mainly a defender at the moment and not the mature power forward looking after others type IMO.



"Basically I think the issue is less about Jones struggling as an individual and predominately about his role outweighing his experience (rather than talent) at the moment.

I think he has enough talent already, but he needs to get the learning and experience up to be able to apply and enable his talent.

That's what I meant. I guess I see experience as a part of talent but your correction makes it sound more articulate. :)


I not one for dropping him, but I would not play him unless he is 100% fit. If he has any soreness give him a rest.

I agree with that as long as it is a real rest rather than playing for Willy. I think that should be the case for all our kids.

[Sedat]

Sedat, you are not alone. I though Barlow was worth holding on to.He could have thrived under the McCartney game plan - tireless work ethic and would have provided a constant moving target for the bailout option whenever our mids were under pressure (just like Miller does at Richmond). Cheesy would hardly ever mark them but he would at least ensure the ball goes out of bounds to a neutral stoppage, instead of trampolining back towards the opposition forward 50

[G-Mo77]

I'll copy and paste what I said in the game thread.

I've got complete faith in Liam Jones. Not many 21 year olds take the best defenders each week and are double or triple teamed. He doesn't have much help down there to relieve that pressure and he doesn't have a real crumbing forward at his feet. He'll get there when it's in place.

[Rocco Jones]

I'll copy and paste what I said in the game thread.

I've got complete faith in Liam Jones. Not many 21 year olds take the best defenders each week and are double or triple teamed. He doesn't have much help down there to relieve that pressure and he doesn't have a real crumbing forward at his feet. He'll get there when it's in place.

That's the key there. So many fans seem to ignore the attention/lack of attention players get when rating them. What defenders they get on them, whether they have a tagger etc. It makes a world of difference.

For those wanting him gone just imagine it. Imagine Cordy/Panos/Hill up against the opposition's best defender with 1-2 others coming in as well! It would be the worst of inductions into the game as it gets.

[LostDoggy]

As an alternative to having a hard body, would we achieve the same thing by playing two young talls? The opponent's "best defender" can still only go to one of them so either Liam or, say, Cordy or Panos, would get the second defender. With our current structure our only real avenue to goal is Gia's undersized footy smarts. Two mobile marking forwards, if they know where to run.. and its a big if.. may give defenders more to worry about and have the same impact as a harder body.

This whole debate is largely due to the slower than expected development of Grant anyway, or his unsuitability to the role he was recruited for.

[LostDoggy]

Ps. I have absolutely no doubt Liam will be a gun in the Stewie Leowe mould. No one at this age shows the tools that he has already shown at AFL level without becoming a far better player when his body and mind actually matures. I have doubts about many others but Jones isnt one of them... he may never be a prolific goalkicker but he'll be absolutely crucial to our half forward structure, if he isnt already.

Heck, the fact opposition coaches are putting their best defenders on him and double and triple teaming him says something, doesnt it?

[Rocco Jones]

As an alternative to having a hard body, would we achieve the same thing by playing two young talls? The opponent's "best defender" can still only go to one of them so either Liam or, say, Cordy or Panos, would get the second defender. With our current structure our only real avenue to goal is Gia's undersized footy smarts. Two mobile marking forwards, if they know where to run.. and its a big if.. may give defenders more to worry about and have the same impact as a harder body.

This whole debate is largely due to the slower than expected development of Grant anyway, or his unsuitability to the role he was recruited for.

I think that is the way to go but there are a few issues with the trio of young tall options.

Panos- been injured and just not doing enough at the moment to warrant a game.
Hill- really don't think he is physically up for it and would only be tall when listed in the Record. Still perhaps worth a few games to get some experience.
Cordy- more of a 2nd ruckman than a pure forward and I worry he would go missing for massive chunks of the game.

Perhaps if we play Lake, Markovic and Austin down back, one of them can ocassionally swing forward when resting ruck isn't there just to throw their weight around/pinch hit. I don't really like that option tbh but I don't think we really have any good options when it comes to our forward line. It sucks!

[Rocco Jones]

Heck, the fact opposition coaches are putting their best defenders on him and double and triple teaming him says something, doesnt it?

Yep, as does his ability to take a contested mark. Top 5 I think last year in league, top 10 atm. Even though others in the top 10 get a lot more of it in general, Jones gets a massive % of contested marks. He does the hardest thing as a key forward awesomely well.

[LongWait]

Think you have nailed it with this line. We are expecting huge things from a 4th year KPP to take over the role that Hall had previously filled, that being our go to man and leading goal kicker. It is a huge expectation on a fellow who is still so raw and has so much development left in him.

We need to give him time to develop. It is pity we don't have another KPP that can take some of the pressure off him. I don't think sending him back to Willy will help his cause. I would rather he stay in the 1sts and see if he can gradually adapt to being the number one go to man.

Barry Hall at the same age and with the same number of games Jones has played would not be ready to take over from himself (if that makes sense.) Hall has left a massive gap for Jones to fill, but Jones is far better performed at 21 years of age or three seasons into his career than Barry was at the same stage.

[Hotdog60]

I think we need to persevere with Jones, what he need is someone to take some of the heat.

If Hill can take a mark and is a reasonable shot at goal I would give him a go at FF. Chris Grant was a skinny runt when he started, sometimes you just need to put games into them.

[LostDoggy]

I think we need to persevere with Jones, what he need is someone to take some of the heat.

If Hill can take a mark and is a reasonable shot at goal I would give him a go at FF. Chris Grant was a skinny runt when he started, sometimes you just need to put games into them.

interesting you brought that up. I was wondering about how Chris Grant started out In comparison to how Jones is going. I remember Grant didn't have a lot of weight, but was still ambidextrous and skillful. I know Jones' marking is a high point but he definitely doesn't have the skills C.G had at the same age.

[BulldogBelle]

I'll copy and paste what I said in the game thread.

I've got complete faith in Liam Jones. Not many 21 year olds take the best defenders each week and are double or triple teamed. He doesn't have much help down there to relieve that pressure and he doesn't have a real crumbing forward at his feet. He'll get there when it's in place.

Agree. I can't see any benefit at all in playing Liam at Williamstown. He's playing confidently enough and I am sure the coaching staff would be in his ear every day pointing out exactly what we have all mentioned in this forum.

The key for Liam, as well stated, is to get the pressure off him. This will happen in time, but he'll just have to persist right now. I think bringing in Tom Hill or alike just adds to the inexperience up forward and might even add pressure to Jones. I think what will happen is when Tommy Williams and Dale Morris return later in the season, a tall that has been covering down back will be released to go forward. The obvious one for me is Marcovic.

[AndrewP6]

He's a young lad who has had a lot of pressure (external, not from the club) put on him. I say give him some time. If the coaches think he's met the goals they set internally, all well and good.

[BulldogBelle]

He's a young lad who has had a lot of pressure (external, not from the club) put on him. I say give him some time. If the coaches think he's met the goals they set internally, all well and good.

Well said. Good post.

[Rance Fan]

He's our man for the next 10 years with some luck.
It will take some time, just suck it up and hope he can take some big steps from time to time.
He will be a star in 4 years!

He just to do the basics right, work hard, present, contest and pressure players.

[whythelongface]

interesting you brought that up. I was wondering about how Chris Grant started out In comparison to how Jones is going. I remember Grant didn't have a lot of weight, but was still ambidextrous and skillful. I know Jones' marking is a high point but he definitely doesn't have the skills C.G had at the same age.

Granty was an absolute freak. Didn't he kick over 50 goals in his first season at 17 years of age? If Liam ends up being half as good as Chris we will have a bloody good player on our hands.

[Rocco Jones]

Granty was an absolute freak. Didn't he kick over 50 goals in his first season at 17 years of age? If Liam ends up being half as good as Chris we will have a bloody good player on our hands.

Yep. Grant isn't the benchmark for good or very good, he is the benchmark for out and out elite.

[w3design]

Port Adelaide have some other guy called Chad this season. Are they all country and western fans down there or something??:D
Sedat, you are not alone. I though Barlow was worth holding on to.

Agree Barlow was worth another year on the rookie list played with heart and got the most out of his ability.

[Greystache]

Granty was an absolute freak. Didn't he kick over 50 goals in his first season at 17 years of age? If Liam ends up being half as good as Chris we will have a bloody good player on our hands.

Yes, and he's still the youngest player in history to kick 50 goals in a season. With the physical development required in the modern professional era it will never be broken.

[Rocco Jones]

Yes, and he's still the youngest player in history to kick 50 goals in a season. With the physical development required in the modern professional era it will never be broken.

Forget about the physical development, the AFL would have to change it's draft rules for Grant's record to be broken. Under the current rules, Grant would have had to wait another year to even play.

[stefoid]

Jones doesn't seem as effective being played close to goal

[boydogs]

As a sidenote, I think it's a massive case for playing mature bodied/minded guys to help support a kid's development.

Not a sidenote at all, this is what it comes down to. Geelong has brought in a stack of new players whilst the experienced bodies were still around, so when they are gone the kids are ready.

This year will be tough for Liam, and no Grant is making it worse.

[AndrewP6]

Not a sidenote at all, this is what it comes down to. Geelong has brought in a stack of new players whilst the experienced bodies were still around, so when they are gone the kids are ready.

This year will be tough for Liam, and no Grant is making it worse.

Wouldn't call Grant "experienced" in either mind or body.

[Eastdog]

Wouldn't call Grant "experienced" in either mind or body.

Will Grant get better than he is at the moment? What does he need to do to really improve his game?

[boydogs]

Wouldn't call Grant "experienced" in either mind or body.

Not implying he is. He is another tall though, which takes a defender away from Jones. He also allows Jones to play further up the ground

[Remi Moses]

I watched the replay this morning and also listened to Macca on SEN and have a different opinion on his form. He hardly received any passes on the chest. He made the best of his opportunities although he had a couple of shocking kicks at goal. I wouldn't be dropping him just yet. As Macca said Jones, Grant, Cordy and Roughead have to think about the next contest if they lose the first instead of dwelling on it.

Stated in a previous post somewhere maybe it's better for his confidence for a spell at Willy.
On reflection with the service ( not exactly silver)gotta keep him in the ones.
He's only 21 and playing the key post would be extremely difficult.

[Sedat]

I think it is important to compare Liam Jones' current output with the game's most overhyped and overexposed young KPF, Sam Reid. Reid had 5 possessions last week and no impact at all again last night.

Jones will be fine but he just needs more support - not Gia or Higgins or Cooney small forward type support, but another big body up there to provide an alternative target for our mids to spot up (and preferably one that isn't a liability as soon as the ball hits the deck).

[Hotdog60]

I think it is important to compare Liam Jones' current output with the game's most overhyped and overexposed young KPF, Sam Reid. Reid had 5 possessions last week and no impact at all again last night.

Jones will be fine but he just needs more support - not Gia or Higgins or Cooney small forward type support, but another big body up there to provide an alternative target for our mids to spot up (and preferably one that isn't a liability as soon as the ball hits the deck).

I agree also, hence why I've mentioned Hill at FF for support. I don't how agile he is though and if the ball got to ground level would he be a liability. But then again try and find a mobile tall with good ground level skills. I think we need to bite the bullet and give someone a genuine go at FF to see if there is any promise.

With another tall up forward we may have to rest our rucks on the bench and our mids in the pockets.

[LostDoggy]

With Lake back in form and Markovic back on deck shortly Austin can be switched forward as really we need a player with run and carry rather than an extra tall in defense

With Jones and Austin on the half forward line we would have a better structure to support Jones , young Marks role would be to take a tall defender and just provide a contest , he is a strong overhead mark either leading , pack and going back with the flight , now this of course would move away from Macca's game plan of only two forwards but it would take pressure off Jones , with Liam and Mark on the 50m arc and Gia as a sweeper on the 30m arc and Cooney and DJ in the hole between HF and FF with the rotating ruckman spending time at FF the structure looks more balanced

.

[Rocco Jones]

I think it is important to compare Liam Jones' current output with the game's most overhyped and overexposed young KPF, Sam Reid. Reid had 5 possessions last week and no impact at all again last night.

Jones will be fine but he just needs more support - not Gia or Higgins or Cooney small forward type support, but another big body up there to provide an alternative target for our mids to spot up (and preferably one that isn't a liability as soon as the ball hits the deck).

I agree with you sentiments but I also believe small forwards can offer support and ours are contributing to his difficult role. Gia and Higgins are our most permanent small forwards. This is not meant to be a crack but that are more individual rather than team based smalls. They are goal scoring threats but don't offer great pressure. Gia and Shaun play like small KP forwards.

So basically Liam has no other (quality) tall target (meaning he has to play on the opposition's best defender as well as having another 1-2 defenders coming in), a resting ruck for parts of the game who isn't suited to playing forward and smalls who can kick a goal or two but not too much else. Add that to the delivery and service that comes from a team stacked with players who can't kick.

[Sedat]

So basically Liam has no other (quality) tall target (meaning he has to play on the opposition's best defender as well as having another 1-2 defenders coming in)Watching the Carlton GWS match, someone like a Setanta would have been the absolutely ideal foil for Jones. Competes hard to bring the ball to ground, and works just as hard to try and lock it in the forward 50. Will never be a superstar but would have provided great physical support for Jones.

[1eyedog]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Basically I think the issue is less about Jones struggling as an individual and predominately about his role outweighing his talent at the moment.


But what's his role? Going by what Macca said on SEN it's about living in the moment, learning not to stress over the ball and learning how to provide small but meaningful deliverables to the team, so learning to contribute to the team (getting to contests so he can create contests) rather than take contested marks and kick big goals (supporter expectations).

I don't think he's struggling as an individual, he is doing what Macca wants him to and that is to learn his trade. Macca is nothing if not a good instructor of men.

Jack Riewoldt was a hack in his first two years of football (looks like he has reverted cross fingers), Jones is so far ahead of him at similar stages in their careers it's not funny. No way was Jack Riewoldt in the top 10 for contested marks in his first two years. We know Jones can clunk a mark, that's the easy stuff, the lessons he has to learn so he can contribute to the team are the development stages I mentioned in the first paragraph.

[Rocco Jones]

Watching the Carlton GWS match, someone like a Setanta would have been the absolutely ideal foil for Jones. Competes hard to bring the ball to ground, and works just as hard to try and lock it in the forward 50. Will never be a superstar but would have provided great physical support for Jones.

Came on to post exactly the same thing.

I was pro bringing Setanta when he got the chop from the Blues. A really good example of how a mature player can help give support for younger players. An added bonus is that he can also play the 2nd ruck role, giving you the flexibility of either playing 1 less ruck or subbing one off.

[LongWait]

I know all the arguments about not shifting Lake from full-back, but gee he made the Pies panic when he went forward. We've seen this a few times now - opposition backlines get very worried and switch their defensive focus onto Lake when he plays forward. He always looks likely to mark the high ball and his brief foray forward on Friday resulted in a contested mark and goal.

Maybe Lake playing out of the forward goalsquare for some of each game will improve our structure up there and help Jones get more one-on-one contests.

[Rocco Jones]

I know all the arguments about not shifting Lake from full-back, but gee he made the Pies panic when he went forward. We've seen this a few times now - opposition backlines get very worried and switch their defensive focus onto Lake when he plays forward. He always looks likely to mark the high ball and his brief foray forward on Friday resulted in a contested mark and goal.

Maybe Lake playing out of the forward goalsquare for some of each game will improve our structure up there and help Jones get more one-on-one contests.

I understand the temptation of moving Lake forward but for mine is like robbing Peter $100 to pay Paul $60.

He is getting back to an out and out elite full back. I would get the move if he was purely a negating full back but the thing is, he is already contributing to our attack because he is such a wonderful rebounding full back. Not only would we be losing his ability to negate a key forward, we would be losing valuable rebound.

As a forward I think he is more of a goal poacher than typical KP anyway. His kicking from set shots is woeful as it doesn't really suit him mentall, has wayyyyyyyyyyyy too much time to think!

What I would do is use him as a pinch hitter up forward when we are down and there is nothing to lose. Around the 10-15 min mark vs Pies on Friday night was a good example.

[1eyedog]

Watching the Carlton GWS match, someone like a Setanta would have been the absolutely ideal foil for Jones. Competes hard to bring the ball to ground, and works just as hard to try and lock it in the forward 50. Will never be a superstar but would have provided great physical support for Jones.

I absolutely agree.

[bornadog]

Watching the Carlton GWS match, someone like a Setanta would have been the absolutely ideal foil for Jones. Competes hard to bring the ball to ground, and works just as hard to try and lock it in the forward 50. Will never be a superstar but would have provided great physical support for Jones.

Did I hear he has done is knee?

[azabob]

Watching the Carlton GWS match, someone like a Setanta would have been the absolutely ideal foil for Jones. Competes hard to bring the ball to ground, and works just as hard to try and lock it in the forward 50. Will never be a superstar but would have provided great physical support for Jones.

Majority of woof all agreed Setanta would be a great fit for us.

From the outside looking in, Mitch Clark has been quite good for Melbourne, he also would've been good fit for us.

[AndrewP6]

Did I hear he has done is knee?

He and Dean Brogan both injured..

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/135053/default.aspx

[Rocco Jones]

Majority of woof all agreed Setanta would be a great fit for us.

From the outside looking in, Mitch Clark has been quite good for Melbourne, he also would've been good fit for us.

Absloute opposite ends when it comes to price both salary and trade wise.

Setanta would have been a great fit as we could have traded our last pick for him and paid him just about minimum wage.

Mitch Clark went for pick 12 and is apparently on $600-800k a year for the next 5 years.

I think we are actually relatively ok in our ruck and 2nd ruck/forward stocks long term, not worth stuff a massive investment. I would just like some quick, cheap support while they grow up.

[Sedat]

Absloute opposite ends when it comes to price both salary and trade wise.Yep, Clark would cost the farm whereas Setanta would cost a bag of feed to provide the same level of physical support to Jones. I also liked the 2nd ruck flexibility that a Setanta could have provided, allowing us to play an extra runner most weeks.

[azabob]

Absloute opposite ends when it comes to price both salary and trade wise.

Setanta would have been a great fit as we could have traded our last pick for him and paid him just about minimum wage.

Mitch Clark went for pick 12 and is apparently on $600-800k a year for the next 5 years.

I think we are actually relatively ok in our ruck and 2nd ruck/forward stocks long term, not worth stuff a massive investment. I would just like some quick, cheap support while they grow up.

True, I am surprised Clark is actually doing well for them considering how poor the team has been overall.

[GVGjr]

Watching the Carlton GWS match, someone like a Setanta would have been the absolutely ideal foil for Jones. Competes hard to bring the ball to ground, and works just as hard to try and lock it in the forward 50. Will never be a superstar but would have provided great physical support for Jones.


Chris Grant also needed someone like Glenn Coleman in the forward line but we haven't had that luxury with Jones this season. We need to be patient with him because the club just hasn't got the players around him to help him succeed.

[azabob]

Chris Grant also needed someone like Glenn Coleman in the forward line but we haven't had that luxury with Jones this season. We need to be patient with him because the club just hasn't got the players around him to help him succeed.

So true, Coleman was the perfect player for Grant. A very honest player.

[LostDoggy]

Maybe Lake playing out of the forward goalsquare for some of each game will improve our structure up there and help Jones get more one-on-one contests.

In an ideal world they probably would? If Marcovic, Morris and Williams were fit and in good form, that would produce a luxury to float Lake all over the field creating a huge headache for opposition coaches. And even if he isn't a gun forward, he is a good enough mark to warrant the defenses respect, thus unloading the burden on 21yo Jones.

[Sedat]

Chris Grant also needed someone like Glenn Coleman in the forward line but we haven't had that luxury with Jones this season. We need to be patient with him because the club just hasn't got the players around him to help him succeed.Fantastic analogy GVGjr. Galaxy was sensational for Granty in 1992, and it is exactly this type of player that would be invaluable to Jones right now.

[LostDoggy]

Any chance of getting a recently retired or close to retirement tall HF at the end of the season? For a couple of seasons.
Collingwood also did it with Bererton and Sav.
Miller and Riewodlt?
Any names.

[AndrewP6]

Any chance of getting a recently retired or close to retirement tall HF at the end of the season? For a couple of seasons.
Collingwood also did it with Bererton and Sav.
Miller and Riewodlt?
Any names.

Barry Hall ;)

[LostDoggy]

Barry Hall ;)

I think we relied too much on Barry to help Jones out. Focus was all to Barry

[AndrewP6]

I think we relied too much on Barry to help Jones out. Focus was all to Barry

Now it's all to LJ

[Ghost Dog]

Tall forwards are not always the holy grail to a flag. Carlton did it back in the day with the mosquito fleet.
Imagine if we had three Dahls. running around the forward line.

[1eyedog]

Any chance of getting a recently retired or close to retirement tall HF at the end of the season? For a couple of seasons.
Collingwood also did it with Bererton and Sav.
Miller and Riewodlt?
Any names.

I'm thinking big, what will they want for Ben Reid?

[G-Mo77]

Any chance of getting a recently retired or close to retirement tall HF at the end of the season? For a couple of seasons.
Collingwood also did it with Bererton and Sav.
Miller and Riewodlt?
Any names.

It's one of the reason I was interested in O'Hailphin who looks to have injured his ACL today. :(

Jack Anthony will be looking for a job next year. ;)

Seriously no one really comes to mind. Anyone in the VFL fit this mold?

[boydogs]

Seriously no one really comes to mind.

I wouldn't want anyone either. By next year we will have half a dozen tall forwards capable of playing a role.

[1eyedog]

I wouldn't want anyone either. By next year we will have half a dozen tall forwards capable of playing a role.

But what about someone actually having an impact on the scoreboard? If the Jones experiment doesn't work and Roughie is playing back and we are not playing Panos, Hill, Redpath et al. what kind of output do you think we'll have in terms of our ability to hurt the opposition on the scoreboard? We are not developing anyone up forward except Jones, Grant seems to be playing the role of roving half forward which is great because he can use his pace but he is really playing the role of a man who is 4-6 inches shorter.

We cannot rely on Cordy to develop physically or mentally enough to assist Jones down forward in a year, I personally will be happy if he stays on the park and plays 12 games this year, so what are the other options? I agree that we have good raw tall stocks but they will need to start playing them at some stage soon. Either that or we go small down there again with all of Dahl, DJ, Higgins and Gia providing the options and look at creating pressure inside 50s to grind out goals. We don't have Johnno who can go there and play the long target role. Wood could do it but he is needed down back, where he is developing.

I am very concerned about our ability to hit the scoreboard both this year and next during games where our mids do not play out of their skins and we have equal inside 50s. If our mids don't hit the scoreboard we are in big trouble, but everyone knows that.

I'll make no bone about it, I am an advocate for Lake going forward. With Marko and Austin and eventually Williams and Morris we will have some cover. I think for our structure, Lake up forward straightens us up and allows us to keep our shape through the middle of the ground. The same could certainly be said of him at FB, so I guess it comes down to my unlearned personal opinion.

[Stefcep]

I think for our structure, Lake up forward straightens us up and allows us to keep our shape through the middle of the ground. The same could certainly be said of him at FB, so I guess it comes down to my unlearned personal opinion.

I think Lake came to us as a forward, but we turned him in to a full back?

I would like him to be given a go forward.

[always right]

I think Lake came to us as a forward, but we turned him in to a full back?

I would like him to be given a go forward.

I have seen nothing in his career with the dogs that suggests he can be anything but an occasional pinch hitter up forward. It's amazing that the sure hands we see on the last line of defence pretty much desert him whenever he goes forward.

I think Brian's value is taking on the opposition's best forwards as evidenced by his game on Cloke last Friday. The only exception is when we play a team without a gun key forward....that probably translates to two or three matches a year.

[Doc26]

Although it seems tempting because Brian's tall and can take a contested mark, the last thing we should be doing is starting to play around with Brian. He's started the year off with promise, I wouldn't start messing with him by swinging him around.

[Mofra]

Tall forwards are not always the holy grail to a flag. Carlton did it back in the day with the mosquito fleet.
Earl Spalding & Sticks in 95?
I'll admit my knowledge of their earlier flags is hazy at best. In recent memory two tall forwards seem to be the norm.

[Cyberdoggie]

I'm all for having another tall like Panos or Hill to help Jones out. I think Jones needs to play up the ground a little and start getting some grabs like he did last year. Just focus on pushing up rather than goals might help him get some confidence back.
A player like Panos (if he can improve his form and deserve a spot) could work well with Jones as he's not going to get a heap of it but he'll end up kicking more goals than Jones simply because he doesn't miss. Most other sides have the 2 tall forward options.

On the other hand i thought other than Jones, we looked much better without Grant and Cordy floating around and with the smaller options. I still think our run out of defence and quick movement of the ball through the middle is the key to things improving elsewhere. If we address those first and get the balance right, then the forward line should also improve it's function.

Wood finally hitting his straps again was like switching the ignition switch, with Murphy and Wood both firing it makes a huge difference. Tutt really needs to get himself right because he's desperately needed. JJ might of even given himself a chance if he could of stayed on the park and kept showing the improvement he has. Also Pearce might earn himself a couple of appearances later in the year. He's under done and looks like a kid but that doesn't seem to bother him at all.

[boydogs]

I'll make no bone about it, I am an advocate for Lake going forward.

I started a thread arguing the case for that back in 2009.

The bottom line is we're rebuilding. There are plenty of elite power forwards pushing 30 (Jonathan Brown, Matthew Pavlich, Adam Goodes, James Podsiadly, Nick Riewoldt), but they won't be around when we're next pushing for a flag.

Our rebuild has been slowed down enough already by recruiting Hall, Akermanis, Veszpremi, Sherman & Djerrkura to try and get us over the line for a flag, which wasn't necessarily the wrong call, but now we have to wear the extended rebuild without plugging the gaps.

[Bulldog4life]

Barry Hall at the same age and with the same number of games Jones has played would not be ready to take over from himself (if that makes sense.) Hall has left a massive gap for Jones to fill, but Jones is far better performed at 21 years of age or three seasons into his career than Barry was at the same stage.

In mentioning Barry he said on Fox footy last week that early in his career he was playing CHB for St.Kilda. He played against Carey at one stage. He said he learned a hell of a lot about forward play by playing CHB at that time.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Earl Spalding & Sticks in 95?
I'll admit my knowledge of their earlier flags is hazy at best. In recent memory two tall forwards seem to be the norm.

I think he means Ross Ditchburn and Warren Ralph 79-82.

[Axe Man]

I know Jesse White from Sydney has been mentioned in the past, would we consider him? Can't seem to cement a place at Syndey, only 24 and a big body.

[Hotdog60]

The way Lake runs in for a set shot would always be a worry for me, I'd keep him back.

[Sedat]

Although it seems tempting because Brian's tall and can take a contested mark, the last thing we should be doing is starting to play around with Brian. He's started the year off with promise, I wouldn't start messing with him by swinging him around.
Agreed. Geelong have never been blessed with superstar forwards (until Hawkins' recent rise), and they never gave thought to moving their best defender, Scarlett, to the forward line. Why we would consider this on a permanent basis has me baffled. Aside from the abomination of 2011, Lake has been as good a key defender as there has been in the competition since 2008. Keep him there.

[LostDoggy]

I know Jesse White from Sydney has been mentioned in the past, would we consider him? Can't seem to cement a place at Syndey, only 24 and a big body.

This. Can pinch hit in the ruck too.

[LostDoggy]

The way Lake runs in for a set shot would always be a worry for me, I'd keep him back.

Agree. But isn't it about unloading Jones? With a Lake or another of the Tall defenders on the list (when fit) going forward, it will force the opposing defense to react.
Get some marks inside 50, then worry about the conversions.

[Desipura]

I know Jesse White from Sydney has been mentioned in the past, would we consider him? Can't seem to cement a place at Syndey, only 24 and a big body.

Would you give them Higgins for him? I personally dont think we need White as we have enough tall forwards/ruckman in Campbell, Hill & Roughead.

[bornadog]

Would you give them Higgins for him? I personally dont think we need White as we have enough tall forwards/ruckman in Campbell, Hill & Roughead.

and Cordy

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Would you give them Higgins for him? I personally dont think we need White as we have enough tall forwards/ruckman in Campbell, Hill & Roughead.

I doubt Sydney would ask for Higgins, White isn't exactly impressing.

I'd look at him for the right price -- a very cheap price -- it's about all he's worth. Setanta would have been better.

[LostDoggy]

Liam needs to also learn how to keep his feet as well as how to collect the ball below his feet. Both issues stood out to me on Friday night. We need to persist with him but he needs some help up there!

[Cyberdoggie]

If Sydney can't get Jesse White to work then perhaps we can't do any better! ;)

[jeemak]

I doubt Sydney would ask for Higgins, White isn't exactly impressing.

I'd look at him for the right price -- a very cheap price -- it's about all he's worth. Setanta would have been better.

Getting rid of Higgins at the same time Giansiracusa is declining only leaves our inexperienced forwards more vulnerable to having to play on gun defenders.

Whether you like them or not, both of Gia and Higgins require marking by solid defenders and are more advanced than any of the small to medium sized forwards on our list. We always talk about needing outside mids that can kick, though our list is also short on goal kicking medium sized players that play mainly up forward.

I'd prefer to persevere with a mix of Cordy, Hill, Roughead, Austin, Panos etc this season and be patient with Jones having faith that he will stick to his task and develop. He's 21, not 18, and I think we need to give him more credit for being resillient until proven otherwise.

If it is proven that Jones can't cope throughout the season then we can rest him and pinch hit with Lake up forward, and address needs at the end of the year.

[LostDoggy]

I posted this on Bigfooty a month ago.
I still maintain that Jones (and the team) will be better off with him behind the ball reading the play and getting more touches than the current situation of him running around aimlessly with barely a touch all game.

----

Firstly, Jones will be a gun forward for the Bulldogs for a long time.
But I'm thinking that if this year is a Development year, we may as well go that step further and invest in Liam Jones.

Jones has all the attributes. He's a clean, one-grab mark, he's big and quick; he reads the game well, has an excellent work ethic and intensity.
What he doesn't have is natural goal awareness nor a decent set shot.

With Brian Lake battling, Markovic just solid and the others injured or kids, we have a screaming vacancy for a Key Defender and I think for this year only, Jones should be that person.

A year at CHB allows Jones to get 20 touches instead of 10 every match giving him greater repetition in executing under pressure. Allows him to go for his marks and spoils without being double-teamed and crunched every time. Allows him to be in the play more and dictate. A big part of footy is mental and I think a year being a gun defender will fast-track his confidence which will override his weaknesses.

In the meantime, we probably will be worse off up forward. Cordy, Campbell and Panos are the obvious replacements there but not as good as Jones. However, with Jones down back, we get also get time into one or two of those which further prepares us for next year and beyond.

So in summary:
1) Jones goes to CHB shoring up our Key Defensive stocks
2) Jones dominates there, gets more touches and builds confidence
3) Cordy, Campbell, Panos get more opportunities up forward
4) These are development moves so we may end up a position or two lower on the ladder this year. (Which may not be such a bad thing given our draft hand).

Thoughts?

[1eyedog]

I started a thread arguing the case for that back in 2009.

The bottom line is we're rebuilding. There are plenty of elite power forwards pushing 30 (Jonathan Brown, Matthew Pavlich, Adam Goodes, James Podsiadly, Nick Riewoldt), but they won't be around when we're next pushing for a flag.

Our rebuild has been slowed down enough already by recruiting Hall, Akermanis, Veszpremi, Sherman & Djerrkura to try and get us over the line for a flag, which wasn't necessarily the wrong call, but now we have to wear the extended rebuild without plugging the gaps.

Yes I remember it and I supported the case. I realise we are in a rebuilding phase but with the amount of inside 50s we get I can't help but support the notion of Brian forward. I honestly don't think he has played full forward for long enough for anyone to know how he would go there over the long term. Jones would get a heap more of it and his confidence was rise with Lake forward.

I know it's wrong to take him from full back, know it in my stomach, but I just can't help thinking about it:D

[Ghost Dog]

Agreed. Geelong have never been blessed with superstar forwards (until Hawkins' recent rise), and they never gave thought to moving their best defender, Scarlett, to the forward line. Why we would consider this on a permanent basis has me baffled. Aside from the abomination of 2011, Lake has been as good a key defender as there has been in the competition since 2008. Keep him there.

Lake has had cameos in the forward line before. For me, he has that swagger, attacks the ball like a forward and has an unpredictable way of playing that would make him one hell of a match up. Pity we can't clone him, because that is where I reckon he actually belongs.

[boydogs]

I know it's wrong to take him from full back, know it in my stomach, but I just can't help thinking about it:D

He doesn't really play full back. We put him on the most useless tall in the opposition forward line so he can read the play and go for the ball without worrying about his opponent.

Have a look at the leading contested mark takers this year, and ask yourself why only 2 of the top 20 are defenders?

http://wap.afl.com.au/stats.htm?action=handleDisplayAFLStats&seasonId=109&typeId=26&typeName=Contested+Marks&seasonName=2012+Home+%26+Away

[stefoid]

Lake has had cameos in the forward line before. For me, he has that swagger, attacks the ball like a forward and has an unpredictable way of playing that would make him one hell of a match up. Pity we can't clone him, because that is where I reckon he actually belongs.

Hes used to trying to outmark his opponents, not have them try to stop him marking.

Hes OK sneaking forward unexpectedly with no opponent on occasion, but when he has played for a quarter or so as a bonefide forward, attracting one or two defenders, he hasnt done that well.

OK, at the moment, 'not that well' is probably betetr than anyone else we have down there, but I reckon if he kicked 2 or 3 goals at FF, we would probably let 4 or 5 throught he other way due to lack of tall defenders.

We are playing the Petries (sorry north melbourne) this week - Lake has to play on Petrire and he has to stop him. end of story.

[1eyedog]

He doesn't really play full back. We put him on the most useless tall in the opposition forward line so he can read the play and go for the ball without worrying about his opponent.

Have a look at the leading contested mark takers this year, and ask yourself why only 2 of the top 20 are defenders?

http://wap.afl.com.au/stats.htm?action=handleDisplayAFLStats&seasonId=109&typeId=26&typeName=Contested+Marks&seasonName=2012+Home+%26+Away

Okay so Cloke is the weakest opposition forward:confused: We don't put him on the weakest forward, we put him on the full forward or the forward playing deepest. He is able to read the play and run off his opponent as well as play a negating defender role at the same time because he is (was) fit and just so darn good at taking an opportunity, evaluating risk and reading the play before the play unfolded. He was also very good at knowing when to take a risk and when not to, meaning when to run off his opponent or when to take a contested mark.

As for the list defenders spoil by nature, only the very elite defenders can read the ball confidently through the air well enough to take a contested mark inside D50. The list doesn't mean anything in terms of how teams are using their key backs, I would expect that list to be topped by forwards.

He's a full back through and through, won an AA there, the role of a full back has changed, but he's still a full back.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Okay so Cloke is the weakest opposition forward:confused: We don't put him on the weakest forward, we put him on the full forward or the forward playing deepest. He is able to read the play and run off his opponent as well as play a negating defender role at the same time because he is (was) fit and just so darn good at taking an opportunity, evaluating risk and reading the play before the play unfolded. He was also very good at knowing when to take a risk and when not to, meaning when to run off his opponent or when to take a contested mark.

As for the list defenders spoil by nature, only the very elite defenders can read the ball confidently through the air well enough to take a contested mark inside D50. The list doesn't mean anything in terms of how teams are using their key backs, I would expect that list to be topped by forwards.

He's a full back through and through, won an AA there, the role of a full back has changed, but he's still a full back.

Like Ted Richards, you mean?

[1eyedog]

Like Ted Richards, you mean?

I would be more concerned about Thompson on that list than Richards. Richards is a good honest player who is better one on one than most people think.

I'm talking long term over their career, not half a dozen rounds into this season, there just isn't enough data on the table provided. Ted won't be on it at seasons end.

For marks taken on opposition kicks and contested marks over the past 10 years I'm talking Scarlett, Lake, McPharlin, early Rutten and Glass circa 2006, even though the two latter were defensive by nature, certainly the first three.

[boydogs]

Okay so Cloke is the weakest opposition forward:confused:

Obviously we are a bit stretched at the moment with Morris, Williams & Markovic out. I do remember him playing on James Gwilt once v St Kilda, with Morris & Williams on Riewoldt & Kosi


As for the list defenders spoil by nature, only the very elite defenders can read the ball confidently through the air well enough to take a contested mark inside D50. The list doesn't mean anything in terms of how teams are using their key backs, I would expect that list to be topped by forwards.

The point I was trying to make with the list is most defenders spoil the ball. It's not as if forwards are on top because they are so much better than defenders - aside from the fact it's the forward's team mates delivering the ball, it's because defenders spoil instead of going for the mark.

If you're outmarking your opponent, maybe you have the skills required to be a forward instead. Imagine Lake, the 2nd highest for contested marks in the league two years ago, with his team mates delivering him the ball instead of playing from behind and reading it off the opposition's boot.

[Maddog37]

Ted Richards is getting better each year. Vastly improved player.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Imagine Lake, the 2nd highest for contested marks in the league two years ago, with his team mates delivering him the ball instead of playing from behind and reading it off the opposition's boot.

Being a forward have very little to do with taking contested marks.

being a forward is more about knowing when and where to lead. Over his career, Jason Dunstall took 3 contested marks and about 10,000 chest marks.

[Ghost Dog]

Being a forward have very little to do with taking contested marks.

being a forward is more about knowing when and where to lead. Over his career, Jason Dunstall took 3 contested marks and about 10,000 chest marks.

Not just that, also wrong footing your opponent and making them think you are going one way, then at the last minute, turn the other. Barry used to do this so well. That takes a lot of time, coaching and experience.

[westdog54]

Being a forward have very little to do with taking contested marks.

being a forward is more about knowing when and where to lead. Over his career, Jason Dunstall took 3 contested marks and about 10,000 chest marks.

10,000 marks would make for a shocking conversion rate:D

Spot on though. Lake deep forward is a deep into time on, we need a mark and goal quickly play

[boydogs]

Being a forward have very little to do with taking contested marks.

being a forward is more about knowing when and where to lead. Over his career, Jason Dunstall took 3 contested marks and about 10,000 chest marks.

So why is everyone talking about us needing another power forward, and not a Mark LeCras or Eddie Betts?

[jeemak]

So why is everyone talking about us needing another power forward, and not a Mark LeCras or Eddie Betts?

The good ones while required to be quick over the first few and with their decision making need the strength to get a few metres on savvy, quick and strong defenders when leading.

They also need to stand out to players moving the ball forward towards congested forward lines, and be big enough to make the most of catching the opposition defense being disorganised which can often result in a miss match.

I truly believe we need an Eddie Betts type on top of Dahl (who will play a lot of midfield going forwards), and a Le Cras type to assist Higgins after Gia leaves.

We all talk about power forwards and quick mids with good skills however, I think high on our priority list would have to be a genuine medium sized goal kicker with pace and good delivery skills.

[LostDoggy]

I can't help but think of Jones in two years, bigger and more confident and growing in stature.

Like others have said, who can play his spot if he moves back or goes to VFL? No one.
He needs assistance up there so lets work on that and let him learn and develop.

Lake is best played in his current role. Full back and pinch hitting forward.

[1eyedog]

Being a forward have very little to do with taking contested marks.

being a forward is more about knowing when and where to lead. Over his career, Jason Dunstall took 3 contested marks and about 10,000 chest marks.

Times have changed since Dunstall IMO. I was just thinking the other day where have all the leading traditional FFs gone (N. Riewoldt/Franklin/Waite the exception but hardly your traditional FFs). Jack Riewoldt a more traditional FF takes a lot of contested marks as do Cloke and Dawes.

The flood was the first knife in the back for full forwards and the the press has further limited space in the forward line until later in the game. With such a focus on defensive forward pressure we now see the ball locked into the forward line for longer periods and goals that are ground out.

More and more often opposition forwards are getting into good positions deep forward with match ups they like and mids are moving the ball through the middle of the ground (now the most lightly populated area on the ground) and kicking long over players playing a kick behind the play (the Goddards) to a contested situation. A massive increase in defensive pressure across the ground post-Dunstall also means less time to deliver accurately into the forward line, so the long option is taken. I think all of Kosi's goals (5 of them) on Saturday night were from contested marks.

[jeemak]

Times have changed since Dunstall IMO. I was just thinking the other day where have all the leading traditional FFs gone (N. Riewoldt/Franklin/Waite the exception but hardly your traditional FFs). Jack Riewoldt a more traditional FF takes a lot of contested marks as do Cloke and Dawes.

The flood was the first knife in the back for full forwards and the the press has further limited space in the forward line until later in the game. With such a focus on defensive forward pressure we now see the ball locked into the forward line for longer periods and goals that are ground out.

More and more often opposition forwards are getting into good positions deep forward with match ups they like and mids are moving the ball through the middle of the ground (now the most lightly populated area on the ground) and kicking long over players playing a kick behind the play (the Goddards) to a contested situation. A massive increase in defensive pressure across the ground post-Dunstall also means less time to deliver accurately into the forward line, so the long option is taken. I think all of Kosi's goals (5 of them) on Saturday night were from contested marks.

That's a pretty good summation of how things work nowadays. Dunstall was good because he was smart of course, though he also had strength and deceptive pace off the mark (not to mention umpiring that didn't penalise the stronger of two opponents going at it). Those qualities aren't as useful now as they used to be.

Our challenge is to keep the forward line open for as long as possible, to allow Jones and any other tall playing forward the appropriate time to find space. To do this we need to clean up our forward movement and not hold the ball up too much in the midfield. Doing that is tough, and it comes down to quick decision making just as much as it comes down to considered kicking rather than bombing it after the ball has been held on to for too long.

Our media friends like Hutchy can bang on all they want about us needing a KPF for now, though it just shows how limited their understanding of the game is. Getting our defensive six right, and having them move the ball quickly to a midfield that boasts a skilled running player or two is so much more important. It sickens me that bogans like Hutchy have so much influence on football opinion these days.

[Remi Moses]

Is hutchy still hanging out in players bins?

[jeemak]

Is hutchy still hanging out in players bins?

Yes, though better that than schools.

[stefoid]

Times have changed since Dunstall IMO. I was just thinking the other day where have all the leading traditional FFs gone (N. Riewoldt/Franklin/Waite the exception but hardly your traditional FFs). Jack Riewoldt a more traditional FF takes a lot of contested marks as do Cloke and Dawes.

The flood was the first knife in the back for full forwards and the the press has further limited space in the forward line until later in the game. With such a focus on defensive forward pressure we now see the ball locked into the forward line for longer periods and goals that are ground out.

More and more often opposition forwards are getting into good positions deep forward with match ups they like and mids are moving the ball through the middle of the ground (now the most lightly populated area on the ground) and kicking long over players playing a kick behind the play (the Goddards) to a contested situation. A massive increase in defensive pressure across the ground post-Dunstall also means less time to deliver accurately into the forward line, so the long option is taken. I think all of Kosi's goals (5 of them) on Saturday night were from contested marks.

Yep, gone are the days where the FF and FB stand side by side in the goal square watching the play at the other end of the ground.

Pack marking is coming back into vogue.

And, I think, guys who have the toe to run transition from flooding the back line to run into an empty forward area when we have the ball. Hello Grant and Sherman.

[SlimPickens]

Been thinking it's not so much a tall player we need as we have developing types to fill the void in the long term but more a crash and bash type around the ball much like Mitch Hahn played for us over a number of years. At the moment our middle size forwards are on the smaller size and don't have the presence that Johnno and Mitch had.

A gap fill and a player that springs to mind would be someone like Dean Galea (188 cm, 95 kg) from Port Melbourne. We could get him bargain baserment, he has a mature body and is hard at it not to mention a pretty accurate shot on goal. Just a thought but watching our forward line at the moment a bloke like this would be an asset.

[1eyedog]

Been thinking it's not so much a tall player we need as we have developing types to fill the void in the long term but more a crash and bash type around the ball much like Mitch Hahn played for us over a number of years. At the moment our middle size forwards are on the smaller size and don't have the presence that Johnno and Mitch had.

A gap fill and a player that springs to mind would be someone like Dean Galea (188 cm, 95 kg) from Port Melbourne. We could get him bargain baserment, he has a mature body and is hard at it not to mention a pretty accurate shot on goal. Just a thought but watching our forward line at the moment a bloke like this would be an asset.

Sounds like another Tory Dickson to me. This from the Bulldogs website;


A mature-age recruit, Tory Dickson was selected by the Western Bulldogs with pick 57 in the 2011 AFL National Draft.

Dickson comes to the Whitten Oval from the Bendigo Bombers, where he kicked 48 goals in 19 games for the VFL side in season 2011.

The 24 year-old is a hard bodied hit-up forward that can also play through the midfield. Standing 184cm, Dickson provides a strong presence around stoppages and has a hunger for winning the contested football.

[Mofra]

Dickson is a classic mid-sized player though, he is about 10kgs lighter than Galea.
Galea plays tall (just ask Mulligan).

TBH I'd prefer Bate from Melbourne

[comrade]

Dickson is a classic mid-sized player though, he is about 10kgs lighter than Galea.
Galea plays tall (just ask Mulligan).

TBH I'd prefer Bate from Melbourne

Galea could be the next Crameri if he got fitter and kept his aggression in check. He was as mad as a cut snake when he played for Willy.

[1eyedog]

Dickson is a classic mid-sized player though, he is about 10kgs lighter than Galea.
Galea plays tall (just ask Mulligan).

TBH I'd prefer Bate from Melbourne

If this is the option I'd prefer to develop our own and play Dickson. Bate has a big body but does not like contact. He must also be at least 190cm but I can't remember him taking an overhead mark.

I understand your position, he could be a handy player in a good side, we're just not a good side yet and he isn't going to make up the difference.

[soupman]

Not just that, also wrong footing your opponent and making them think you are going one way, then at the last minute, turn the other. Barry used to do this so well. That takes a lot of time, coaching and experience.

Even just doing so in the goalsquare.

Multiple times now Jones has picked up the ball in the goalsquare and failed at evading the one defender. It's little things like that that once he starts actually doing will take him to another level.

[Rocco Jones]

I think Galea would be more worthy of a rookie spot than Redpath but he really reads as a clasic VFL star, not up to it in the AFL. I know that has been falsely assumed too often and is now being corrected, but I think his limitations will be found out in the top league. Another point to remember is that he plays for Port Melbourne, he gets plenty of opportunities.

How about Michael Wundke? 24-25 years old. 191cm I believe. He was at the Kangaroos and now is doing pretty well in the SANFL if the goal kicking tall is anything to judge by. Thoughts t&t? I guess I am talking his type rather than the actual invidual.

[Desipura]

Galea could be the next Crameri if he got fitter and kept his aggression in check. He was as mad as a cut snake when he played for Willy.
Someone I know associated with the club, mentioned we should seriously consider drafting Crameri, we all know the end result.........

[Maddog37]

I think Galea would be more worthy of a rookie spot than Redpath but he really reads as a clasic VFL star, not up to it in the AFL. I know that has been falsely assumed too often and is now being corrected, but I think his limitations will be found out in the top league. Another point to remember is that he plays for Port Melbourne, he gets plenty of opportunities.

How about Michael Wundke? 24-25 years old. 191cm I believe. He was at the Kangaroos and now is doing pretty well in the SANFL if the goal kicking tall is anything to judge by. Thoughts t&t? I guess I am talking his type rather than the actual invidual.



Sounds exactly like what was always said about Pods.

[Rocco Jones]

Sounds exactly like what was always said about Pods.

A few points...
- I was always a fan of Pods.
- Pods is 7cms taller than Galea.
- I said Galea > Redpath as a rookie.

[Maddog37]

I actually agree with you about Galea but also thought the same things about Pods. Who's really to know

[Sockeye Salmon]

How about Michael Wundke? 24-25 years old. 191cm I believe. He was at the Kangaroos and now is doing pretty well in the SANFL if the goal kicking tall is anything to judge by. Thoughts t&t? I guess I am talking his type rather than the actual invidual.

We were supposedly looking at Wundke last draft

[LostDoggy]

Galea is only 188cm and 93 kg. To me he looks overweight.
If we recruited him would we need Mulligan to be playing on him every week.

[bornadog]

Galea is only 188cm and 93 kg. To me he looks overweight.
If we recruited him would we need Mulligan to be playing on him every week.

I hope we don't think about Galea. He is a good handy VFL player and can't see we need someone like him.

[Driver Leader]

He is a higher up the ground forward who needs to recieve the clearing kick from half back, in order to do that he needs to roam up there and people need to kick it to him. No point leaving him deep as he just gets crowded out, he needs to roam and demand the ball.

[G-Mo77]

Someone I know associated with the club, mentioned we should seriously consider drafting Crameri, we all know the end result.........

:(

Are we giving up on Redpath too early here? I think a few in here thought he'd be the next JB without even seeing him play and now started putting a line through his name.

[Axe Man]

:(

Are we giving up on Redpath too early here? I think a few in here thought he'd be the next JB without even seeing him play and now started putting a line through his name.

Agreed. I would have thought that Redpath would require a minimum of 2 years on the rookie list before a call could be made on him, considering how far back he's coming from.

Without having actually seen him play it always seemed to me like the early wraps on him were way over the top and similarly the criticism now is a little premature.

[1eyedog]

:(

Are we giving up on Redpath too early here? I think a few in here thought he'd be the next JB without even seeing him play and now started putting a line through his name.

Who said anything about writing Redpath off? I only read a post stating regret that we shouldered arms to Crameri.

[G-Mo77]

Who said anything about writing Redpath off? I only read a post stating regret that we shouldered arms to Crameri.

Sorry it's just a general vibe I get from the posts I read in various threads.

[Desipura]

:(

Are we giving up on Redpath too early here? I think a few in here thought he'd be the next JB without even seeing him play and now started putting a line through his name.

Im stating a fact about Crameri, totally unrelated to Redpath.

[G-Mo77]

Im stating a fact about Crameri, totally unrelated to Redpath.

Which is why I gave the sad face. :(

The comment underneath isn't related to your post.

[bornadog]

Which is why I gave the sad face. :(

The comment underneath isn't related to your post.

Do you think Redpath has what it takes to succeed? I haven't seen much of him as I haven't been to any Willi games, especially since they haven't been playing at Burbank Oval.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Do you think Redpath has what it takes to succeed? I haven't seen much of him as I haven't been to any Willi games, especially since they haven't been playing at Burbank Oval.

Looks a long way off VFL football, let alone AFL

[G-Mo77]

Do you think Redpath has what it takes to succeed? I haven't seen much of him as I haven't been to any Willi games, especially since they haven't been playing at Burbank Oval.

Still far to early to tell. He's a project player, a long shot so it's going to take time. I've only seen him a hand full of games as well.

[1eyedog]

Still far to early to tell. He's a project player, a long shot so it's going to take time. I've only seen him a hand full of games as well.

Isn't he already 22-23?

[G-Mo77]

Isn't he already 22-23?

And?

Can't you learn after that age?

[bornadog]

Isn't he already 22-23?

21 and will be 22 in December, still young for a developing big bloke.

[Greystache]

Do you think Redpath has what it takes to succeed? I haven't seen much of him as I haven't been to any Willi games, especially since they haven't been playing at Burbank Oval.

He's big and very quick, but I haven't seen anything football wise to get excited about. He doesn't use his size especially well, generally playing as a lead up forward, and doesn't strike me as an especially smart player. I'd like to him given a try in defence.

[Hotdog60]

He's big and very quick, but I haven't seen anything football wise to get excited about. He doesn't use his size especially well, generally playing as a lead up forward, and doesn't strike me as an especially smart player. I'd like to him given a try in defence.

Here we go again, turning our forwards into backmen.:D

[LostDoggy]

Do you think Redpath has what it takes to succeed? I haven't seen much of him as I haven't been to any Willi games, especially since they haven't been playing at Burbank Oval.

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showpost.php?p=268711&postcount=70

Once he gets his body right and his mind right he,ll be fine , the big fellas nearly always take a little time , his left knee is a concern though

.

[1eyedog]

And?

Can't you learn after that age?

I'm 39 and still learning. Connor McLeod was 489 and still learning. I was just trying to gauge his age, I didn't know it. I thought he was older than 21, thanks BAD.

[1eyedog]

Here we go again, turning our forwards into backmen.:D

He's played a bit down back apparently, good place to learn what its all about, just ask Kosi, he was there for 4 years, Ryder too. It's not a matter of turning forwards into backmen its about easing them into the on-field rigours of AFL football as well as the pace of the game.

Ahhhh just saw your emoticon, sarcasm can be hard to pick up sometimes.

[Hotdog60]

He's played a bit down back apparently, good place to learn what its all about, just ask Kosi, he was there for 4 years, Ryder too. It's not a matter of turning forwards into backmen its about easing them into the on-field rigours of AFL football as well as the pace of the game.

Ahhhh just saw your emoticon, sarcasm can be hard to pick up sometimes.

Yeah, it was in light of resent discussion on the forum.:)

[Bulldog4life]

Still far to early to tell. He's a project player, a long shot so it's going to take time. I've only seen him a hand full of games as well.

Also hasn't played a lot of footy in the past 2 to 3 years as he suffered 2 left knee constructions in that time. He will need time that's for sure and no doubt the Club is aware of that.

[Stefcep]

So in summary:
1) Jones goes to CHB shoring up our Key Defensive stocks
2) Jones dominates there, gets more touches and builds confidence
3) Cordy, Campbell, Panos get more opportunities up forward
4) These are development moves so we may end up a position or two lower on the ladder this year. (Which may not be such a bad thing given our draft hand).

Thoughts?

Tarrant is an example of a key forward going to CHB and finding form.

Could work for Jones.

[Rocco Jones]

Cordy improved in the 2nd half. Could having a developing Ayce and the added danger of Dickson make things easier for Jones?

I think for at least next week it will be a good idea to play Jones. He can replace Roughy as 3 rucks will be too much for Darwin and offer some fresher legs.