Game Day 2012 - R9 Western Bulldogs vs Geelong

[BulldogBelle]

This is the discussion thread for our Friday night game against Geelong at ES.

My predictions are:

The Dogs by 3 points
BOG : Ryan Griffen
Shaun Higgins to kick the first goal.

[bornadog]

The Dogs by 1 point
BOG : Ryan Griffen
First Goal: Wallis

[SlimPickens]

Think it will be fairly close early with the Cats getting the ascendancy later in the game.

Cats 27 points
BOG: Big Will
First Goal: Griffen

[LostDoggy]

Dogs by 7
BOG - Griff
First Goal - Dahl

[Greystache]

Cats by 19 points
BOG- Griffen
First goal- Grant

[LostDoggy]

As usual, keeping the faith.....

Dogs by 3 points
Bog = Griffen
First goal = The Grommet

[Eastdog]

Dogs by 2 points
BOG: Ryan Griffen
First Goal: Gia

[AndrewP6]

Cats by 21
BOG (for us) Griff
First goal: Dahlhaus

[bornadog]

First goal- Grant

You may have to do an edit;)

[LostDoggy]

Dogs by 5
bog Griff
first goal sherman

[westdog54]

Cats by 19 points
BOG- Griffen
First goal- Grant


You may have to do an edit;)

Don't you just hate that?

Cats by 29
Sherman first Goal
Griffen our BOG.

Good luck to Daniel Pearce.

[Daughter of the West]

I think we'll hold them until 3/4 time and then fade, unfortunately

Cats by 35
First goal (Dogs): Gia
BOG (Dogs): Griff

NB Happy to be proven wrong!

[LostDoggy]

DOGS by 23
BOG : Joel Corey
First Goal : Sherman

.

[DragzLS1]

About to head over to the ground! Man im getting nervouse :S

[Scraggers]

Geelong by 27 points (unfortunately)
First goal Griff
BOG Picken

[DOG GOD]

Cats by 46 (can't see us kicking 10 goals)
Bog for us- Boyd
1st goal- higgins

[SlimPickens]

Jones currently have a kick on the ground in pregame gear. Likely late change I'd suggest.

[Doggy]

Cordy out for Jones

[Greystache]

Cordy out for Jones

I wonder if that was always the case

[choconmientay]

FINAL INTERCHANGES
Western Bulldogs: Mitch Wallis, Daniel Pearce, Luke Dahlhaus
Substitute: Zephaniah Skinner
Geelong: Mitch Duncan, Paul Chapman, Jesse Stringer
Substitute: Jonathan Simpkin


Dogs by 3 points.

[Greystache]

Thanks Choc,

So Scarlett is back.

[azabob]

Thanks Choc,

So Scarlett is back.

Bugger, let's hope he's rusty first up.

[LostDoggy]

I had to do a double take when I saw Jones in instead of Cordy , I was happy to give him a rest if his back was still giving him problems , must have passed a late fitness test , Skinner as the Sub I though he would start but obviously they want some late impact , Sherman most likely now will drop back so Cross can play higher up on the defensive side of the square , I,m expecting early physical pressure on Libba he's our workhorse in the engine room the quicker he is to the ball and the more times he gets the ball the more likely we are to clear

Geelong are going to be very focused on the first 15 minutes of the game and the last 15 minutes , if they can hit the scoreboard hard in both periods they believe they can build momentum and finish us off

For me its the last 15 minutes before HT and the first 15 minutes after , a strong 30 min period where we dominate the contested ball and clearances should give us the momentum to push hard till the end

Go Dogs !

.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Cats by 27
BOG for Dogs: Cross
1st goal Griff

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Already our poor use of the ball going forward is killing us. 21 to 1. As soon as we lose control of the ball in our forward line Geelong has been able to run and spread, and score easily.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Finally some reward for effort. Nice snap from Higgins.
6 inside 50's for us so far for 1 goal, compared to 9 inside 50's for Geelong for 3 goals.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Veszpremi has got to get better at disposing of the ball smarter when he's being pressured. His first reaction when tackled is to just handpass it blindly a foot in front of him, and invariably turns it over.

[AndrewP6]

We just look hopeless going forward... We're still bombing it in long, only difference is we're now doing it to guys like Dahlhaus.
Like the way Dicko is cracking in though.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Murph's disposal has been horrible, 3 deadset clangers.
We're lucky to only be 16 points adrift. Geelong aren't playing exceptional footy either.
Once again can't fault our endeavour at the contest, but poor choices going forward, and some key turnover's have meant Geelong have been able to get out to a lead.
Really need to find some consistent avenues to goal, or I get the feeling the Cats will incrementally keep building on their lead throughout the game.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We just look hopeless going forward... We're still bombing it in long, only difference is we're now doing it to guys like Dahlhaus.
Like the way Dicko is cracking in though.

And when we're not bombing it long, we're kicking to 4 on one (Jones to Dahlhaus) or missing the leading target (Picken to Gia), or not taking the shot when required (Cross)

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Great Goal Gia! A bit of a Lenny Hayes dummy in traffic!

[westdog54]

Poor comms from Gia and Higgins, neither going for the mark.

Gia makes amends with a cool headed finish

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Austin and Lake doing well on Pod and Hawkins respectively

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

11 shots on goal to our 3, we need a steadier now.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Excellent finish by Jones! margin back to 2 goals, we're fighting hard.

[SlimPickens]

Gia cannot get out of first gear, geez he looks lethargic.

[comrade]

Any chance of us defending the bloody corridor?

[comrade]

Good boy Wally. Playing another solid game.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Gia cannot get out of first gear, geez he looks lethargic.

REally? I thought he has looked good. EVen without the ball, he's run hard. We know he's as slow as concrete. He's moving as well as he is able to. and of all our forwards is smart with his movement when the ball is coming in.

Fantastic fightback in that quarter.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Good boy Wally. Playing another solid game.

He really is starting to look like he feels comfy playing at this level now.

[Scraggers]

7 points down at half time ... Good quarter of footy ... Better position than I thought we'd be !!!

[EasternWest]

Half time. We're going ok. Hard, hard work is the way we're getting our goals. I doubt it's sustainable, but our pressure on the ground is good.

We need an avenue to goal tht is not scrap, scrap, scrap.

Dickson doing ok with Scarlett. Keeping him honest.

[EasternWest]

Good boy Wally. Playing another solid game.

Agreed. Looks like something has clicked. Looks cool under pressure. Good hands.

[SlimPickens]

Lovely way to finish the half, great mark by roughy and a very smart kick to Gia(great double back lead also Gia).

[LostDoggy]

Any chance of us defending the bloody corridor?

When we are giving them 400 metres of space no chance , does seem incredible they are able to get so many players free with no one else within the next postcode

Our good stuff has been solid but our horrible stuff has been well , just horrible , nearly all of our attempts to switch to the wing has ended in a recreation of the apocalypse , really bad idea , need to run and carry through the corridor , Griffen has been kept quiet , Boyd has been awful by foot , our guys need to stop bombing the forward line the ball just pops out like 13 year old acne , Dickson is driving Scarlett crazy with better delivery Scarlett might resort to haymakers again , Geelong has been forced to bomb from 50 metres but some damn good players to use to do it , the run of Stringer and Motlop is dangerous we cant give them the space we have been

.

[Mantis]

Having a real crack... Just need to use it a little better and we will win this one.

Lack of legs may come into, but they aren't exactly running on top of it either.

[comrade]

The inside work of Libba and Wallis is top shelf. Add some pace and quality to that midfield via the draft and we'll be moving back up the ladder sooner rather than later.

Need to put a leash on Johnson. Hate that germ.

[LostDoggy]

Need to put a leash on Johnson. Hate that germ.

It might be an idea to have Sherman tag him , Stevie J is all over us like a fat kid on a cupcake

.

[SlimPickens]

REally? I thought he has looked good. EVen without the ball, he's run hard. We know he's as slow as concrete. He's moving as well as he is able to. and of all our forwards is smart with his movement when the ball is coming in.

Fantastic fightback in that quarter.

He struggles to get seperation on the lead, we know this, he has to work his butt off and run smart which he generally does well.

My comment was directed at some of defensive chase work, it may be he is buggered from previous leads.

[EasternWest]

Good kick from Pearce. Good mark from Dickson.

[Mantis]

He struggles to get seperation on the lead, we know this, he has to work his butt off and run smart which he generally does well.

My comment was directed at some of defensive chase work, it may be he is buggered from previous leads.

His lack of pace and 2nd efforts is a real worry.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Great start to the half. 1 point the diff.

[comrade]

Liam Jones' field kicking is woeful.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

2 poor efforts at the stoppage have led to 2 very quick Geelong goals.

[comrade]

Geelong are kicking goals through individual brilliance, we're 'scunging' goals through hard work.

We need to block up the corridor or our defense is just going to fall apart under a deluge of easy ball.

2 goals in a minute hurts a lot.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Boy we are our own worst enemy in attack.

[comrade]

Nice bounce.

Deserve some luck :D

[EasternWest]

Minson is playing well.

[comrade]

Minson is playing well.

Starting to work over the Geelong blokes. He's learnt well from Huddo and is being effective when the ball hits the ground.

[comrade]

I'm harping on it, but letting them waltz through the corridor is killing us.

[comrade]

JOOOOOOOOONESSSSSS!

Needs to kick it.

[comrade]

*!*!*!*! it!

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Roughy and now Jones have both missed sitters after stong marks 20 out in front, just slays us

[comrade]

We dominated the play and have nothing to show for it. What's the point of kicking it to tall targets when they can't kick it from 20 out?

[EasternWest]

I'm harping on it, but letting them waltz through the corridor is killing us.

It's not harping if it bears repeating.

We are having a legitimate, fair dinkum crack, but those runs up the guts are killing us.

Cross is killing Bartel.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We dominated the play and have nothing to show for it. What's the point of kicking it to tall targets when they can't kick it from 20 out?

It must be very demoralising to the team as well. None of the young talls on our list are natural goalkickers, Cordy, Roughy and Jones all iffy prospects for the bread and butter shots on goal.

[Bulldog4life]

I'm harping on it, but letting them waltz through the corridor is killing us.

You are :D

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

It's not harping if it bears repeating.

We are having a legitimate, fair dinkum crack, but those runs up the guts are killing us.

Cross is killing Bartel.

Cross is having a fantastic month.

[LostDoggy]

Roughead and Jones damn damn damn damn , really needed those goals

Geelong really tried to burn us off by upping the tempo , they did,nt get much and its taken some of their tank but it also took some of ours , need a quick start to the 4th to try and get the lead

.

[Eastdog]

Playing the 1 on 1 footy has helped do very well this year. Hopefully we can get the win and the attitude from our team has been fantastic.

[comrade]

Skinner on Scarlett scares me.

Come on Roughy. Put your hand up.

Edit: Kills us.

[GVGjr]

We need to kick 4 this quarter which is going to require a huge effort.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Roughy again, misses.

[Eastdog]

Roughy missing like that might be the difference tonight. Must take those chances.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Terrible effort from Skinner. We're throwing this away and Geelong are ripe for the picking.

[comrade]

Our inexperienced forward line is the difference. We don't know how to win.

[comrade]

You just want to cry.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Jayzus... Skinner barely has a first effort, let alone a second one...
We've surely kicked ourselves out of it. Hawkins turns a half chance into a goal

[Mantis]

*!*!*!*! u Higgins.

[Bulldog4life]

Had our chances. Poor misses by Roughy. Skinner not up to it.

[comrade]

What was Boyd thinking going 6th man up?

[EasternWest]

Terrible effort from Skinner. We're throwing this away and Geelong are ripe for the picking.

I've seen nothing from Skinner in the 3 Seniors and handful of vfl games I've seen him play. That's not to say he won't develop to be a player, but at this stage he looks lost IMO.

[LostDoggy]

This is so frustrating.
Missed opportunities killing us.

[comrade]

Terrible decision. It gets hit into Griffen'a lap, held to him and then he gets pinged.

I hate AFL umpires.

[LostDoggy]

I've seen nothing from Skinner in the 3 Seniors and handful of vfl games I've seen him play. That's not to say he won't develop to be a player, but at this stage he looks lost IMO.

Like having one man less.
Miles off afl level

[comrade]

I hope Grant's injured because he is miles in front of Skinner.

[comrade]

We should have iced this game.

The work of Dahlhaus then was fantastic.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Well at least we are still having a deadset crack. back to 9 points

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

And now Skinner's kicked a freak.
What an inspired sub.. :o

[LostDoggy]

Maybe I'm wrong.

[Eastdog]

3 goals unanswered back in it.

[comrade]

SKINNNNNNNNNNER!

Back. In. It.

[KT31]

I've seen nothing from Skinner in the 3 Seniors and handful of vfl games I've seen him play. That's not to say he won't develop to be a player, but at this stage he looks lost IMO.

I have been an advocate of Skinner, but have come to the realisation he is a long way off.







Edit:Old story once you have a crack they do something great.

[LostDoggy]

Hoping I'm wrong about Skinner

[EasternWest]

I've seen nothing from Skinner in the 3 Seniors and handful of vfl games I've seen him play. That's not to say he won't develop to be a player, but at this stage he looks lost IMO.


Like having one man less.
Miles off afl level

I take it all back. He's the future ;).

Lucky bounce. Nice turn though.

[comrade]

How can we let Motlop get goal side?

Pearce got caught ball watching.

[KT31]

Who's on Motlock ?
All up and none down.

[KT31]

Maybe I'm wrong about Skinner

Such a long way off Chop's.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Damn.

[KT31]

If the club had listened to us and developed a forward this game would be ours by 30 points.

[LostDoggy]

How many posts?

[KT31]

Third time tonight and been pinged.

[KT31]

How many posts?

Still eight, but we just manage to hit them.:)

[azabob]

If the club had listened to us and developed a forward this game would be ours by 30 points.

Isn't that what we are doing with Jones, Cordy, Rough, Grant? To a lesser degree Dickson, Skinner, Hill and Panos?

[comrade]

Motlop has torched Pearce in the fourth qtr.

[azabob]

Motlop has torched Pearce in the fourth qtr.

True, but Motlop is no slouch. Will be a good player.

[comrade]

True, but Motlop is no slouch. Will be a good player.

He's a front running crab :D

[EasternWest]

Austin has owned Podsiadly tonight. That goal goes down as most undeserved goal of the night.

[comrade]

This game, and the Collingwood game just kill you. People will look at the scores and see that it was a comfortable loss but we should have won this.

[comrade]

Steve Johnson a football genius? Get stuffed Bruce.

[Mantis]

As with us for years when it cranks up we go missing.

[Mantis]

And why is that our best forwards are our worst?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We're going to get alot of these performances this year, where in many of the hard indicators we're going to be in it up to our neck, but because of the lack of a competent AFL level forward line, we're just not going to seal the deal more often than not.
I cannot fault the endeavour, hardness, commitment and resilience of the group, we just lack the polish up front to challenge good teams.

[PedroArvy]

Massive heart + no decent forwards = this result

[azabob]

He's a front running crab :D

Wish we had a front running grab in our forward fifty!

[KT31]

This game, and the Collingwood game just kill you. People will look at the scores and see that it was a comfortable loss but we should have won this.

Thought we were the bette side in the the second half and next season we will own the Cat's.

[comrade]

We're going to get alot of these performances this year, where in many of the hard indicators we're going to be in it up to our neck, but because of the lack of a competent AFL level forward line, we're just not going to seal the deal more often than not.
I cannot fault the endeavour, hardness, commitment and resilience of the group, we just lack the polish up front to challenge good teams.

The forward line functioned OK tonight - we just didn't kick some easy goals which then gave the ball back to Geelong who spun it back through the corridor.

Our lack of a zone and our inability to stop their run up the guts were the biggest issues. Our ability to win possession in a contest is very good but we get torched on the over lap.

Macca needs to sort that out.

[comrade]

Wish we had a front running grab in our forward fifty!

We should steal one off Geelong, they've got a few.

[whythelongface]

Steve Johnson a football genius? Get stuffed Bruce.

Unfortunately he is. Apart from missing a number of easy goals Stevie J was the difference tonight.

[KT31]

Steve Johnson a football genius? Get stuffed Bruce.

Hope you meant Mcavaney ! :D

[whythelongface]

Thought we were the bette side in the the second half and next season we will own the Cat's.


Definitely. Not just the Cats either. If we can sort out our forward line we are a massive chance to take it up to a number of teams.

[EasternWest]

Gutsy, gritty performance.

Only ourselves to blame in the end. We had enough clunks and shots within 40 metres that we maybe/probably should have won.

In one way, encouraging signs that Jones found some form with his hands and Roughy clunked a few while working himself into good positions.

On the other hand, these same two guys did their best to kick us out of it :(.

It's not all doom and gloom, not at all, but it's hard to watch our players killing themselves for our club for no reward.

Still rather watch 2012 Dogs than 2011.

[KT31]

We should steal one off Geelong, they've got a few.

Pod's was ours for the taking.

[EasternWest]

Pod's was ours for the taking.

We should do them a favour and take Vardy off their hands. Maybe tell them his injury is worse than it is. They'll buy that, yeah?

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

The forward line functioned OK tonight - we just didn't kick some easy goals which then gave the ball back to Geelong who spun it back through the corridor.

Our lack of a zone and our inability to stop their run up the guts were the biggest issues. Our ability to win possession in a contest is very good but we get torched on the over lap.

Macca needs to sort that out.

It sputtered. Repeatedly missing gimme goals for mine isn't functioning.
We are always going to be at risk of getting torched with our one on one style. It's forgivable as a plan providing you have confidence that you will maximise the opportunities that getting your hands on the ball first at the majority of contests provides. But if you are aware that your key forwards are iffy at best with the opporunities they get, then you have to wonder whether the team can afford to play a 4Qtr one on one style of play.

[comrade]

It was Jones' best game of the year by a fair way. I think we just have to keep getting games into him.

Why was Vez subbed? I thought he was strong early on.

[whythelongface]

It was Jones' best game of the year by a fair way. I think we just have to keep getting games into him.

Why was Vez subbed? I thought he was strong early on.


Think he ran out of juice. Still needs to work on his fitness levels to be able to sustain a 4Qtr effort. But yes pleased with some of his run off the HB flank.

[azabob]

We should do them a favour and take Vardy off their hands. Maybe tell them his injury is worse than it is. They'll buy that, yeah?

Not sure Vardy is that far ahead of Roughead.

[LostDoggy]

I counted 5 easy shots we missed. That was the difference. Jones is a great mark but he's not a natural forward, doesn't lead to the right areas so every possession is a slog, hopefully this comes with experience. Bazza barely had to contest a mark because he was so smart with where and when to time a lead to get separation on his defender.

Straight goalkicking is a massive problem. Don't know if Cloke will fix this even if we can get him, although he will straighten us up. Skinner and Grant and DJ need to become our Motlop.. keep it simple, finish well.

Bottom line, we need to trade in or draft some serious class this year. Definitely miss Morris as well.

[LostDoggy]

Ps. We are ahead of where i would have thought, macca is doing a pretty good job thus far. Sherman could probably be our goalkicker. Dixon is doing well.

[comrade]

I counted 5 easy shots we missed. That was the difference. Jones is a great mark but he's not a natural forward, doesn't lead to the right areas so every possession is a slog, hopefully this comes with experience. Bazza barely had to contest a mark because he was so smart with where and when to time a lead to get separation on his defender.

Straight goalkicking is a massive problem. Don't know if Cloke will fix this even if we can get him, although he will straighten us up. Skinner and Grant and DJ need to become our Motlop.. keep it simple, finish well.

Bottom line, we need to trade in or draft some serious class this year. Definitely miss Morris as well.

It's hard to miss from the goal square. On another note, we must concede more goals from within 15 metres in open play than any other team.

I would like to see Jones take more marks on the lead. He's almost exclusively a pack marker.

[EasternWest]

Not sure Vardy is that far ahead of Roughead.

Fair point. Roughead has improved.

I'd still take Vardy of they were chucking him away .

[LongWait]

Ps. We are ahead of where i would have thought, macca is doing a pretty good job thus far. Sherman could probably be our goalkicker. Dixon is doing well.

I was bitterly disppointed in Sherman's efforts tonight. He doesn't take the game on at all when he has the pill and when put under any pressure he quickly gives a handball off, usually to someone who is then even more un der the hammer than Sherman was. Doesn't do anywhere near enough with his pace and talent.

[comrade]

I was bitterly disppointed in Sherman's efforts tonight. He doesn't take the game on at all when he has the pill and when put under any pressure he quickly gives a handball off, usually to someone who is then even more un der the hammer than Sherman was. Doesn't do anywhere near enough with his pace and talent.

Only had 14 touches and 7 kicks - none were damaging. Did Geelong tag him?

[LostDoggy]

I hate complaining about the umps, but they really did have an impact on the scoreboard. Three goals directly from dodgy decisions... Hawkins first when he was being pwned by Brian, the goal from Griff being pinged for no reason, then when we were on our run in the 4th quarter, Bartel's goal came directly from a throw near the boundary that allowed the kick into the forward 50. The last two were against the run of play, with our players unable to react to terrible umpiring. In a close game, crap like that is decisive.

[LostDoggy]

I was bitterly disppointed in Sherman's efforts tonight. He doesn't take the game on at all when he has the pill and when put under any pressure he quickly gives a handball off, usually to someone who is then even more un der the hammer than Sherman was. Doesn't do anywhere near enough with his pace and talent.

I agree.. i think he's playing too much in traffic and he's not a good enough decision maker to do that. Either give him a role where he can run straight and kick long (like on a HBF) or he can run ahead of the play and go straight for goal, like the Varcoe or Motlop role. He loves kicking a goal and we need more natural goalkickers.

[LostDoggy]

Gutsy, gritty performance.

Only ourselves to blame in the end. We had enough clunks and shots within 40 metres that we maybe/probably should have won.

In one way, encouraging signs that Jones found some form with his hands and Roughy clunked a few while working himself into good positions.

On the other hand, these same two guys did their best to kick us out of it :(.

It's not all doom and gloom, not at all, but it's hard to watch our players killing themselves for our club for no reward.

Still rather watch 2012 Dogs than 2011.

Well said, I especially agree with the last line.
We beat the premiers in most aspects of the game besides kicking goals. I really don't get how those 20-25 metre shots can be missed so regularly. Good signs for the future if the kicking can be vastly improved. Minson was influential again.

[LongWait]

Only had 14 touches and 7 kicks - none were damaging. Did Geelong tag him?

Geelong tagged Griffen and Dahlhous heavily, so I'd doubt very much that Sherman also rated a tag.

My criticism of Sherman is not whether he gets enough of it - it's more that he doesn't take the game on if there is any traffic at all around him. If he had even a little bit of Griffen's daring I'd be much happier. The old addage "he's a good driver in heavy traffic" certainly doesn't apply to Sherman.

[LongWait]

I agree.. i think he's playing too much in traffic and he's not a good enough decision maker to do that. Either give him a role where he can run straight and kick long (like on a HBF) or he can run ahead of the play and go straight for goal, like the Varcoe or Motlop role. He loves kicking a goal and we need more natural goalkickers.

Perhaps you're right Lantern, but I don't think that the coach wants players who are completely and utterly incompetent in any traffic. They can't all be Libba or Boyd, but they also can't just shit themselves and flip the ball off to someone else at the first sign of any pressure on the ball.

[GVGjr]

Gutsy, gritty performance.

Only ourselves to blame in the end. We had enough clunks and shots within 40 metres that we maybe/probably should have won.

In one way, encouraging signs that Jones found some form with his hands and Roughy clunked a few while working himself into good positions.

On the other hand, these same two guys did their best to kick us out of it :(.

It's not all doom and gloom, not at all, but it's hard to watch our players killing themselves for our club for no reward.

Still rather watch 2012 Dogs than 2011.


Some terrific points there EW. Whilst we let ourselves down tonight I see some better signs than I did 12 months back.

[GVGjr]

It was Jones' best game of the year by a fair way. I think we just have to keep getting games into him.

.

Agreed. I think we have to keep persevering with him unless we are confident that a spell at Williamstown will serve him better. I'd be prepared to cop a couple of more poor games because over the longer term he will come good for us.

[LostDoggy]

Perhaps you're right Lantern, but I don't think that the coach wants players who are completely and utterly incompetent in any traffic. They can't all be Libba or Boyd, but they also can't just shit themselves and flip the ball off to someone else at the first sign of any pressure on the ball.

I think Boydy is an unfortunate comparison. Watching him tonight, he is clearly an elite contested ball winner and has lovely clean hands off the deck, but his decision making isn't a major strength. It's an old chestnut, but he simply isn't that damaging by foot. Opponents actually actively drop off him when he has the ball in space and he only ever kicks it to contests. Much better by hand.

Libba, on the other hand, is a flippin amazing decision maker, even in little to no space. The apple didn't fall far from the tree.

[comrade]

I think Boydy is an unfortunate comparison. Watching him tonight, he is clearly an elite contested ball winner and has lovely clean hands off the deck, but his decision making isn't a major strength. It's an old chestnut, but he simply isn't that damaging by foot. Opponents actually actively drop off him when he has the ball in space and he only ever kicks it to contests. Much better by hand.

Libba, on the other hand, is a flippin amazing decision maker, even in little to no space. The apple didn't fall far from the tree.

I thought Boyd played within his limitations tonight. I can't recall any explicit clangers by foot and his handball work in close was good as always.

We really do need some elite kickers of the footy in that midfield.

[comrade]

Agreed. I think we have to keep persevering with him unless we are confident that a spell at Williamstown will serve him better. I'd be prepared to cop a couple of more poor games because over the longer term he will come good for us.

By the time he's 24 - 25, he should be a very good player. It's obvious that his lack of confidence in his kicking really effects him.

I think his career might trend in a similar way to Hawkins. Pump the games into him, let him grow into the role and build up his confidence so he's comfortable out there - then we'll see the results.

[LostDoggy]

I thought Boyd played within his limitations tonight. I can't recall any explicit clangers by foot and his handball work in close was good as always.

We really do need some elite kickers of the footy in that midfield.

Agree with all of that. No clangers isn't really a ringing endorsement but you'll take that from Boydy. Really notice our lack of quality on forward 50 entries though.. even when in space most of our players - bar Gia and Libba - can't pinpoint a pass to a free or leading player, something most AFL midfielders can do blindfolded.

Coons normally can but he wasn't getting much separation or space, and Griff doesn't look like he even looks up on forward 50 entries anymore.. for all his amazing attributes, his kicking has become almost completely one dimensional. It's almost always exactly that long, floating kick that goes around 60 metres to a contest. Rarely ever puts one on the chest of a teammate.

[LongWait]

I think Boydy is an unfortunate comparison. Watching him tonight, he is clearly an elite contested ball winner and has lovely clean hands off the deck, but his decision making isn't a major strength. It's an old chestnut, but he simply isn't that damaging by foot. Opponents actually actively drop off him when he has the ball in space and he only ever kicks it to contests. Much better by hand.

Libba, on the other hand, is a flippin amazing decision maker, even in little to no space. The apple didn't fall far from the tree.

I used Boyd to illustrate what Sherman can't do.... hold on to the ball under physical pressure and either break away from the traffic, or take the body contact and force a stoppage or a hand-off to a player in a better position. I agree that Boyd's use of the ball in space is not damaging, but neither was Stevie J tonight, who I thought was given way too much credit by the commentators as he regularly turned it over or failed to kick to his team's advantage.

Sherman frustrates me because I think he has the attributes to be a game breaker. Mostly though, he is a non-event who flashes into the odd game with an occasional eye-catching goal. I don't like to routinely knock players but I had high hopes when we acquired Sherman and he had bitterly disappointed.

[Mantis]

Have the Geelong players become a bunch of primmadonnas?

So many of their players look for a free kick at every contest.

[LongWait]

Have the Geelong players become a bunch of primmadonnas?

So many of their players look for a free kick at every contest.

It's a bloody good question. You have to wonder after watching tonight's game and their newly found, bruise-free style of footy.

[Hotdog60]

Have the Geelong players become a bunch of primmadonnas?

So many of their players look for a free kick at every contest.

Do you think Hawkins may come under the eye of the MR for his dive with little or no contact from Lake.

[LostDoggy]

Pretty proud tonight. We could have thrown in the towell numerous times but kept cracking in.

Smashed them in clearances, smashed them in contested footy, it's just a shame we didn't convert our opportunities in the second half.

Was happy we went man on man, we just needed to be smarter and play infront of our opponents in the corridor. Geelong made space beautifully so we needed to make them take the harder option of over the back rather than the easy lead ups.

[LostDoggy]

I used Boyd to illustrate what Sherman can't do.... hold on to the ball under physical pressure and either break away from the traffic, or take the body contact and force a stoppage or a hand-off to a player in a better position. I agree that Boyd's use of the ball in space is not damaging, but neither was Stevie J tonight, who I thought was given way too much credit by the commentators as he regularly turned it over or failed to kick to his team's advantage.

Sherman frustrates me because I think he has the attributes to be a game breaker. Mostly though, he is a non-event who flashes into the odd game with an occasional eye-catching goal. I don't like to routinely knock players but I had high hopes when we acquired Sherman and he had bitterly disappointed.

Can't argue with any of this but Sherman is one of those players, like Motlop and Stokes, who look better in good teams as they finish off the good work of others. In middling teams like ours they are a bit of a luxury that don't represent good value, but all top teams need some cream on top of the cake. Hopefully when we are in areal position to challenge in a couple of years Sherman will be a nice bit of scoreboard impact.

[Mantis]

It's a bloody good question. You have to wonder after watching tonight's game and their newly found, bruise-free style of footy.

The game, it's rules and it's officiating has so much to answer for.

But is it the player or the system?... But watching talented and respected players trying to scab frees isn't what the game is (or should be) about.

[LostDoggy]

I did,nt really rate Geelong on current form as a well oiled machine , the media do and after tonight they still will , I on the other hand still don,t

We had them against the ropes for long periods but just couldn,t punch them hard enough or often enough to knock them down , it really did come down to the first 15min and the last 15min , as one of the fittest sides they can really push at the end but to our guys credit we hung in and did,nt look like a side coming off a 6 day break after playing in Darwin

Our use of the wings was just appalling , total shambles , hated it when we chose to swing wide , Geelong just slide across and got numbers in the corridor on the turnover , when we committed to using the corridor ourselves we were able to open them up but too often the kick into the forward 50 was from 70 or 60m , Macca will be boiling with the number of times we threw away the pivotal part of the game plan where the ball carrier gets to the 50m arc and either kicks the goal or hits a target

I liked how Dickson drove Scarlett bonkers , if our supply was better he could have kicked 3 or 4 and Scarlett might have punched him at least once

Griffen was frustrated by the 4th quarter, he just couldn,t get clear

Boyd has to set fire to his kicking boots , they are the wrong size and are well past their use by date , some nice shiny new ones that can only kick 30m to a target would be perfect

Well , if Jones was going to be rested this week then I,m assuming he gets rested next week , took a while to get space and time his marks , kicked a great goal from 45 on an angle but we wont talk about the other one

Lake and Austin were very good against Hawkins and Pod , the support for them fell away a bit at the end and Hawkins and Pod got some cheap ones

Apparently if you touch or tackle Stevie J you get a Voo Doo curse put on family or the plague or be pested by ants for a week or lose your wallet and keys , how else do you explain why he can have the entire ground to himself

Once again its like being groped by a poltergeist , you know what happened but you can,t blame anyone

.

[SonofScray]

On the radio the callers were going on about J Selwood's courage and the universal respect he has from the football world. I would just like to say I do not think he is a brave footballer at all, nor do I have respect for him. I am of the view that he is a cheat and was furthermore disappointed by his antics in appealing for free kicks all night tonight.

Doesn't count for much in the grand scheme of things but I just felt like throwing that out there.

[G-Mo77]

Just lacked that polish again. We continue to work our arses off to get a goal and Geelong walk it from end to end for an easy one. It'll come with time and once we mold as a group it will help a lot.

In regards to them I think they're on their downward turn. I'd be very, very surprised to see them in the prelims this year. They're still a strong outfit but not a threat for the big one as far as I'm concerned.

[Eastdog]

Cant fault the effort from our team tonight. Its frustrating though as this match reminds me so much of the match against Collingwood in that we were hanging in there for most of the night but just could not do it. I don't believe in honourable losses. A win is a win, a loss is a loss. The reality is we did not get the 4 points but we are doing alright with the players we have.

[always right]

I wanted to see players developing this season. I'm seeing it and I'm content for the moment. Some good signs.

[bornadog]

Have the Geelong players become a bunch of primmadonnas?

So many of their players look for a free kick at every contest.

They also don't go in hard at the ball. So many times they looked timid when their was a contest.

On the way home listening to David Parkin he said Geelong are in trouble in a few years time as all their young midfielders are outside types and they don'y have any inside players to take over from the older players.

[bornadog]

On the radio the callers were going on about J Selwood's courage and the universal respect he has from the football world. I would just like to say I do not think he is a brave footballer at all, nor do I have respect for him. I am of the view that he is a cheat and was furthermore disappointed by his antics in appealing for free kicks all night tonight.

Doesn't count for much in the grand scheme of things but I just felt like throwing that out there.

Picken really nullified him and he had no influence on the game. I noticed each time he was tackled tried to throw his head back to get a free.

[bornadog]

Overall, I think our biggest problem is not the forward line but rather our disposal and hitting targets. Geelong did this so well tonight, they were definitely more efficient with the ball, and their deliver was so much better.

We are number one in the AFL for Disposals and contested possession, but we just can't use the ball and we give no chance to our forward line. eg. Kicking a high ball to Gia who is being covered by Mackie, what bloody chance does he have.

[Hotdog60]

We all knew this was going to be a hard slog. But what I've seen so far this year has been very encouraging.

I was a Eade fan and I saw him as the man to rebuild and have another crack at a final. Well Macca has turned me around and I like the way he is taking the team, if I have one gripe it's the use of the same old cliché' but then again he get asked the same questions.

This year we are being taken for a ride which is one of development and growth and I think we could see the rewards of what has been sown as early as next year if not at the end of this one.

At the moment we are in the contest and due to some factors at times in the game we don't make the most of it. But at least we aren't being blown away by the 100 point scenario.

Things must be pointing in the right directions because of the disappointment in the people on this forum when we loose, I wonder if some of those posters had us written off at the start and saw us with a winning margin like Melbourne. If they still felt that way would they be expressing their disappointment now. We are not that far off and times are looking good for the future.

[Sedat]

Sherman frustrates me because I think he has the attributes to be a game breaker. Mostly though, he is a non-event who flashes into the odd game with an occasional eye-catching goal. I don't like to routinely knock players but I had high hopes when we acquired Sherman and he had bitterly disappointed.Sherman was utterly deplorable. His role in the team is to provide run and carry, something that we are desperately short of, and last night he failed miserably on that score. His decision making with ball in hand also stunk it up but that's not a surprise.

[GVGjr]

I wanted to see players developing this season. I'm seeing it and I'm content for the moment. Some good signs.

Same here. While we all want to see wins on the board the improvement across some of the guys is encouraging. I still don't hold high hopes for us this season but outside of the StKilda game there has been some positives in most others.

[GVGjr]

Sherman was utterly deplorable. His role in the team is to provide run and carry, something that we are desperately short of, and last night he failed miserably on that score. His decision making with ball in hand also stunk it up but that's not a surprise.

I have been a critic of Sherman but despite his efforts last night I hope we stick with him. I just have a feeling that he is close to putting in a couple of good games and we do need the run that he can supply.

[LostDoggy]

Sherman was utterly deplorable. His role in the team is to provide run and carry, something that we are desperately short of, and last night he failed miserably on that score. His decision making with ball in hand also stunk it up but that's not a surprise.
Who was his direct man? Was it Motlop?

[Hotdog60]

Who was his direct man? Was it Motlop?

I could be wrong but I think it was Vespa then Pearce

[SonofScray]

I have been a critic of Sherman but despite his efforts last night I hope we stick with him. I just have a feeling that he is close to putting in a couple of good games and we do need the run that he can supply.

He was terrible last night. Something about his direct opponent, or the way Geelong set up just had him rattled, he looked lost and unable to get involved. He might have had only 10 or so touches from what I saw. One half opportunity in the fwd 50 and not much else.

Like you though, I can't write him off yet, he is playing a more robust game akin to Mac's instructions which is probably not his natural game. I can appreciate that as a small consolation.

[azabob]

It was Jones' best game of the year by a fair way. I think we just have to keep getting games into him.

.

The best thing about Jones' game was he dropped a very easy mark first up, but didn't shy away from attacking the next contest, and he finally clunked one and that must have done wonders for his confidence.

As frustrating as it that Jones, Roughead and Cordy (previous weeks) miss easy goals from 30m out is that they are getting the mark or free kick due to good kicking upfield and good body positioning.

5 weeks ago we couldn't hold a mark or get out hands to the ball in forward now we are.

[G-Mo77]

The best thing about Jones' game was he dropped a very easy mark first up, but didn't shy away from attacking the next contest, and he finally clunked one and that must have done wonders for his confidence.

As frustrating as it that Jones, Roughead and Cordy (previous weeks) miss easy goals from 30m out is that they are getting the mark or free kick due to good kicking upfield and good body positioning.

5 weeks ago we couldn't hold a mark or get out hands to the ball in forward now we are.

It's one thing I love about the kid. I wouldn't blame him if he dropped his head after a poor night and he's had a few of them this year but not only does he keep trying he does the small things that don't get talked about all that much as you said body positioning which leads to bringing the ball to ground in the right spot even when being outnumbered, chasing, tackling and pressure. He had a shocking first quarter and apart from his kicking at goal he put in a really good performance.

[ledge]

Very happy with tonight, Macca is doing a great job, one step at a time, good to see he has been trying things to get our forwardling functioning and slowly it is stating to take shape, I see us improving every game.

[azabob]

Very happy with tonight, Macca is doing a great job, one step at a time, good to see he has been trying things to get our forwardling functioning and slowly it is stating to take shape, I see us improving every game.

Agree totally Ledge.

I got a text message half way through the first quarter when it was 20 odd to zip, saying it could be a long night. I was freezing my butt off and I was thinking the same thing.

[LostDoggy]

Sherman frustrates me because I think he has the attributes to be a game breaker. Mostly though, he is a non-event who flashes into the odd game with an occasional eye-catching goal. I don't like to routinely knock players but I had high hopes when we acquired Sherman and he had bitterly disappointed.

Seems he was used in a slightly different role last night which macca has said he
will do this year, and also the suspension of Addison perhaps shuffled the deck a bit with
ves and sherman rarely getting forward of centre. He is the perfect player to run through
the middle and link up or get on the end of a chain and score, it just wasn't happening for him
last night. he'll be fine.

[DragzLS1]

Seems he was used in a slightly different role last night which macca has said he
will do this year, and also the suspension of Addison perhaps shuffled the deck a bit with
ves and sherman rarely getting forward of centre. He is the perfect player to run through
the middle and link up or get on the end of a chain and score, it just wasn't happening for him
last night. he'll be fine.

As you said not having Addison in the side meant we had 1 player back that should have been providing run. I wonder if we had Addison wether it would have changed anything? How exciting is Skinner :p

[bornadog]

I got a text message half way through the first quarter when it was 20 odd to zip, saying it could be a long night. I was freezing my butt off and I was thinking the same thing.

They should have been up by 5 goals in that first quarter but to our credit we stuck it out and gave ourselves a real chance. Like you I thought it was going to be a long night. I went to the game not expecting to win, but when we got within 3 points late in the last quarter, only to lose, I felt disappointed after the game, but knew there were plenty of positives.

[bornadog]

I have been a critic of Sherman but despite his efforts last night I hope we stick with him. I just have a feeling that he is close to putting in a couple of good games and we do need the run that he can supply.

Last night was his worse game this year, but overall, I think he has been playing well. He has been getting more than half his disposals, contested, but last night I don't think he had one contested possession.

I was very disappointed twice when Sherman had chances to score; one was when he tried to soccer the ball from an unrealistic spot in the forward pocket, really should have put his head over the ball and picked it up. The other was, I think in the last, when he had the ball in open space, bounced it once and then slammed it on his foot, only to be turned over. He had plenty of time to use his pace and run further and give himself a chance to score.

[azabob]

They should have been up by 5 goals in that first quarter but to our credit we stuck it out and gave ourselves a real chance. Like you I thought it was going to be a long night. I went to the game not expecting to win, but when we got within 3 points late in the last quarter, only to lose, I felt disappointed after the game, but knew there were plenty of positives.

Felt exactly the same way.

[azabob]

How exciting is Skinner :p

Yes Skinner is exciting. It is encouraging when he comes on he may only get the footy a couple of times but he manages to kick a goal. Plenty to work with, but he has a lot of work to do himself.

Wonder if he can get a tank big enough to have the repeated efforts required?

[Maddog37]

Skinner is a liability at the moment. His fitness is miles away.

[Sedat]

I was very disappointed twice when Sherman had chances to score; one was when he tried to soccer the ball from an unrealistic spot in the forward pocket, really should have put his head over the ball and picked it up. The other was, I think in the last, when he had the ball in open space, bounced it once and then slammed it on his foot, only to be turned over.Both of these instances were classic Sherman - after 8 seasons at this level his decision making won't be getting any better

[Stefcep]

The stats at the end of the game had us ahead or equal in several areas.

We lost this game, they didn't beat us.

We lack class at the moment in the forward 50 to finish

[bornadog]

The stats at the end of the game had us ahead or equal in several areas.

We lost this game, they didn't beat us.

We lack class at the moment in the forward 50 to finish

The misses by Roughead, Griffen, Dickson and Jones would have made a bigger difference

[G-Mo77]

Skinner is a liability at the moment. His fitness is miles away.

He had his hands on his knees after 5 minutes on the ground.

[Eastdog]

Skinner is a liability at the moment. His fitness is miles away.

I thought Skinner did some good things last night and was exciting at times. In that first pre season match against GWS at the start he looked lively. As you said Maddog37 he needs to get his fitness 100% and hopefully we will see more of him.

[ledge]

I disagree with Skinners fitness, everytime i have watched him he has put in 3 to 4 efforts at once, his goals have all come from 3 or 4 repeated efforts chasing, tackling etc.
Hands on knees after that for a few seconds , no problem.

[bornadog]

I disagree with Skinners fitness, everytime i have watched him he has put in 3 to 4 efforts at once, his goals have all come from 3 or 4 repeated efforts chasing, tackling etc.
Hands on knees after that for a few seconds , no problem.

He kicked one, hit the post once and created a goal for Gia all in the space of 10 minutes. He just needs game time to get use to the pace of the game.

[Eastdog]

I disagree with Skinners fitness, everytime i have watched him he has put in 3 to 4 efforts at once, his goals have all come from 3 or 4 repeated efforts chasing, tackling etc.
Hands on knees after that for a few seconds , no problem.

Do reckon Hooper will play in the seniors this year.

[Greystache]

I disagree with Skinners fitness, everytime i have watched him he has put in 3 to 4 efforts at once, his goals have all come from 3 or 4 repeated efforts chasing, tackling etc.
Hands on knees after that for a few seconds , no problem.

I agree. His 2nd and 3rd efforts have been his strength. I'd question whether he could maintain those efforts over 3 or 4 quarters, but it hasn't been an issue in the limited game time he's had.

[azabob]

Do reckon Hooper will play in the seniors this year.

Personally, I wouldn't think so. Who do you think he could replace?

[G-Mo77]

I disagree with Skinners fitness, everytime i have watched him he has put in 3 to 4 efforts at once, his goals have all come from 3 or 4 repeated efforts chasing, tackling etc.
Hands on knees after that for a few seconds , no problem.

The only reason it stood out like a sore thumb because right in front of me on the wing he really struggled to make it to the ball. Had he been fitter he would have made it and charged off with the ball. After it he stood here with his hands on his knees. I'm not having a crack at him but it's something that really needs to improve if he's going to run out a full 4 quarters.

[AndrewP6]

Fitness aside, Zephy looks lost, IMO. Some flashes of exciting stuff, but not up to it at the moment

[Eastdog]

Personally, I wouldn't think so. Who do you think he could replace?

He plays forward so someone there who is out of form maybe. Do you see a future for Hooper at the club or will the delist him.

[comrade]

He plays forward so someone there who is out of form maybe. Do you see a future for Hooper at the club or will the delist him.

He just isn't good enough to be an AFL player. Lacks agility, skills are average and can't stay on his feet. At his size, he needs an elite element to his game; pace, skills, tackling/defensive pressure. Hoops has none of these.

[Eastdog]

He just isn't good enough to be an AFL player. Lacks agility, skills are average and can't stay on his feet. At his size, he needs an elite element to his game; pace, skills, tackling/defensive pressure. Hoops has none of these.

Could he come good later on perhaps as he still is only 21 or like you said comrade he won't amount to much.

[bornadog]

He just isn't good enough to be an AFL player. Lacks agility, skills are average and can't stay on his feet. At his size, he needs an elite element to his game; pace, skills, tackling/defensive pressure. Hoops has none of these.

Wasted a rookie upgrade and spot on the list.

[azabob]

He plays forward so someone there who is out of form maybe. Do you see a future for Hooper at the club or will the delist him.


He just isn't good enough to be an AFL player. Lacks agility, skills are average and can't stay on his feet. At his size, he needs an elite element to his game; pace, skills, tackling/defensive pressure. Hoops has none of these.


Could he come good later on perhaps as he still is only 21 or like you said comrade he won't amount to much.


Wasted a rookie upgrade and spot on the list.

As comrade and bornadog have said he isn't up to it.

What Hooper should be is like Dahlhaus, but he isn't anything like Dahlhaus.

[comrade]

Could he come good later on perhaps as he still is only 21 or like you said comrade he won't amount to much.

I think he'll struggle to overcome his physical deficiencies. Not sure he's the hardest worker or most committed trainer.

It's a shame, as there is a spot for little blokes in our team. I think we should build our forward line around 3 big blokes who can bring the ball down to speedy, tackling oriented small men. Hoops isn't the answer.

[gohardorgohome]

Zeph has his own personal fan club behind aisle 20 cheering his every move when he was warming up on the bench. Loved their passion!!!

[Sockeye Salmon]

Fitness aside, Zephy looks lost, IMO. Some flashes of exciting stuff, but not up to it at the moment

This

[Eastdog]

What is positive for us is the youngsters that are coming through. This will hold us in good stead for the next few years. We are going ok right now with what we have and Macca is doing a good job.

[LostDoggy]

I was going to start a thread called 'The False Promise of Contested Possessions', but thought I'd just write up some of my thoughts here.

I like that we're building our gamestyle around contested possessions, as, of course, getting your hands on the ball is a good start to winning a game of football. However, there is a bit of a false indicator in our contested stats at the moment. I've been mulling this over while watching teams like GWS and GC win the contested stats regularly while getting pummeled by 50 points. As recently as last year, GC beat us in the contested stats while we beat them by nearly 80 points.

Us winning the contested football is all well and good, but.. let's see if I can explain it properly. Recruiting exclusively hard-at-it inside players (like Smith) will win you the contested stats more often than not, but the second or third disposal is a problem, because the cut-price purely inside players are generally limited creatively. They may be able to get away a quick handball or two, but when it comes to hitting targets by foot, a lot of these types aren't particularly great at it. The difficult thing, which Geelong has been doing well for a long time, is to have their ball-winners like Gablett Jr, Selwood, Bartel, Corey et al also be elite ball-users, which is the holy grail of complete, all-round teams.

I mean, we've all been talking about adding an outside player or two to our midfield rotations. However, you can only ever play 18 guys at a time, so adding an exclusively outside player means removing an inside player, which will impact on our contested ability. Has anyone considered that maybe we're winning contested football because we're overloading the contested space with limited but game ball-winning beasts? Perhaps it's almost better to probably give up a bit of ground on the contested stats if you can get better return on your possessions? I'm seeing the best teams getting cheap goals from half-earned sequences of play while we keep winning the ball and turning it over.

I'm not saying Macca is wrong, or that I'm not enjoying our newfound attack on the football, but I don't think the answer is as simple as adding a good outside runner or two, but to actually get more players like Libba and Wallis -- good all-round players that can win their own ball but also have (potentially) elite disposal. Pure inside/outside players are luxuries I don't think teams can really afford in this day of tighter and tighter zones.

Just some thoughts -- sorry for hijacking the thread!

[gohardorgohome]

It pretty hard to execute wonderful skills if you don't have the ball in the first place or you can get it off the other team.

Win the ball first then use it wisely......

If you can't do both you won't be successful.....

[azabob]

I was going to start a thread called 'The False Promise of Contested Possessions',

Just some thoughts -- sorry for hijacking the thread!

I think a new thread could have been started. Interestingly Christ Scott I think pretty much admitted on radio this morning Geelong no longer think winning the contested ball is the be all and end all. In fact I don't think they have one the contested ball once this season. I actually asked the question some weeks ago is MCCartney coaching for how football is played now rather than in three years time? However if you can't get the footy there is not much point turning up, but as you say once you get the ball you must dispose of effectively.

Has finals footy ever been a non-contested, non physical game?

Lantern, what Bulldog list and game plan would you prefer of recent time? 2006, 2008-09, or 2012?

[Eastdog]

The game plan we had in 2009 was very good.

[azabob]

The game plan we had in 2009 was very good.

Game plan or players? ;)

[AndrewP6]

It pretty hard to execute wonderful skills if you don't have the ball in the first place or you can get it off the other team.

Win the ball first then use it wisely......

If you can't do both you won't be successful.....

Sounds like us now...

[Dry Rot]

The game plan we had in 2009 was very good.

No, it wasn't.


Game plan or players? ;)

Quite.

[Eastdog]

We had a lot of leg speed in the 2009 season which made us a fast team and hard to beat.

[Greystache]

We had a lot of leg speed in the 2009 season which made us a fast team and hard to beat.

No we didn't, we moved the ball on at all costs all the time. Our player's leg speed wasn't quick, but constant movement of the ball made us look quick. The problem was the game pan relied upon executing our skills efficiently all of the time or get burned on the rebound because all of our players were out of position by being offensive.

It worked well against mediocre teams, slaughtered teams full of kids, and constantly fell down against top teams, especially teams with good defence (Hawthorn 08, St Kilda 09, Collingwood 10), plus Geelong played a similar way but had a team with better skills. Having Brian Lake leading the AFL every year in intercept marks covered over a lot of the weaknesses in our game plan, but at the end of the day we lost something in the vicinity of 25 out of 30 games to other top 4 teams during that time, and 6 out out 6 finals.

Personally I'm glad our new coach is basing our new foundation around winning contested possession, as opposed to relying exclusively on everything going perfectly skills wise on a given day.

[LostDoggy]

It pretty hard to execute wonderful skills if you don't have the ball in the first place or you can get it off the other team.

Win the ball first then use it wisely......

If you can't do both you won't be successful.....

You're absolutely right, but my point is that it's hard to find players who can both win the ball AND use it wisely with 'wonderful skills'. My point is that if you want pure ball extractors you can just get a whole team of Smiths and you will win the contested ball stats every single week but you won't be putting a whole lot of goals on the board -- which sounds a bit like us.

I don't want to overstate matters -- clearly Libba and Dahlhaus are both good users of the footy and can get their own ball. Griff as well, and Wallis looks promising.

I'm just saying that it's not as simple as adding skillful players to a contested side -- every time you add a more 'outside' type you're losing contested capacity.

To add 'wonderful skill' while maintaining our ability to win the contested stats will be a VERY tricky transition. Unless, of course, we'll develop a gameplan that doesn't rely on 'wonderful skill' at all, just well executed basics.

[MrMahatma]

I was going to start a thread called 'The False Promise of Contested Possessions', but thought I'd just write up some of my thoughts here.

I like that we're building our gamestyle around contested possessions, as, of course, getting your hands on the ball is a good start to winning a game of football. However, there is a bit of a false indicator in our contested stats at the moment. I've been mulling this over while watching teams like GWS and GC win the contested stats regularly while getting pummeled by 50 points. As recently as last year, GC beat us in the contested stats while we beat them by nearly 80 points.

Us winning the contested football is all well and good, but.. let's see if I can explain it properly. Recruiting exclusively hard-at-it inside players (like Smith) will win you the contested stats more often than not, but the second or third disposal is a problem, because the cut-price purely inside players are generally limited creatively. They may be able to get away a quick handball or two, but when it comes to hitting targets by foot, a lot of these types aren't particularly great at it. The difficult thing, which Geelong has been doing well for a long time, is to have their ball-winners like Gablett Jr, Selwood, Bartel, Corey et al also be elite ball-users, which is the holy grail of complete, all-round teams.

I mean, we've all been talking about adding an outside player or two to our midfield rotations. However, you can only ever play 18 guys at a time, so adding an exclusively outside player means removing an inside player, which will impact on our contested ability. Has anyone considered that maybe we're winning contested football because we're overloading the contested space with limited but game ball-winning beasts? Perhaps it's almost better to probably give up a bit of ground on the contested stats if you can get better return on your possessions? I'm seeing the best teams getting cheap goals from half-earned sequences of play while we keep winning the ball and turning it over.

I'm not saying Macca is wrong, or that I'm not enjoying our newfound attack on the football, but I don't think the answer is as simple as adding a good outside runner or two, but to actually get more players like Libba and Wallis -- good all-round players that can win their own ball but also have (potentially) elite disposal. Pure inside/outside players are luxuries I don't think teams can really afford in this day of tighter and tighter zones.

Just some thoughts -- sorry for hijacking the thread!
I don't think anyone's under the illusion that the 22 we play this week will win us the flag. All Macca can do is teach the blokes we have to do what he thinks is needed. The right mix of personnel will come.

If he can get Howard, Tutt, & Pearce all better at the contest, they'll still be good ball users. Just two of those have been regularly injured this year, and all are very young.

We have an OK mix on the list, not so much in the 22 but that will come with experience and coaching.

I also don't think Macca is suggesting we only focus on contested ball. He's mentioned in post game press conferences and interviews about guys learning when it's their turn to go and when we already have enough at the ball so their turn to spread.

The contested ball stat doesnt win the game, but it gets you started. We're trying to build a team to win a flag in the coming years, not just looking for a few more wins in 2012.

[chef]

Personally I'm glad our new coach is basing our new foundation around winning contested possession, as opposed to relying exclusively on everything going perfectly skills wise on a given day.

Me too.

[Maddog37]

Let's revisit this thread in two years time when Cordy, Jones, Ruff, Walls, Libba, Dal etc etc have 50-80 games under their belt and have developed more cohesion as a team. I know our skills are not great at times but I personally feel that we haven't clicked yet and when we do, watch out!

The players have the skills and the right attitude. They lack experience and several preseasons.

We play a finals style football which is better than the exciting fluff that teased us with prelims but was unsustainable when the chips were down.

As a side note, how good would Scott West be in today's game?.........

[Sedat]

Let's revisit this thread in two years time when Cordy, Jones, Ruff, Walls, Libba, Dal etc etc have 50-80 games under their belt and have developed more cohesion as a team. I know our skills are not great at times but I personally feel that we haven't clicked yet and when we do, watch out!

The players have the skills and the right attitude. They lack experience and several preseasons.

We play a finals style football which is better than the exciting fluff that teased us with prelims but was unsustainable when the chips were down.

As a side note, how good would Scott West be in today's game?.........
After watching the last few weeks since the Saints abomination, I am especially very bullish about Libba, Wallis and Dahlhaus becoming the cornerstone of our midfield for the next 10+ years. They are all vastly ahead of Boyd and Cross at the same age, not forgetting that these two were the backbone of our midfield during our 3-time top 4 run. Pendlebury and Thomas were ridiculed as not up to it at the same stage of their careers. I think we have a potentially very special group of midfielders on our hands.

I'm not as bullish about our young KPP's, but I'm not as fussed about this either. Mooney and Nablett/Pods/Hawkins was never exactly the greatest bunch of key forwards the game has ever seen but it served Geelong fine for 5 consecutive years. I just want to see continued incremental improvement from Jones, Roughead and Cordy and I will be very comfortable with our key forward stocks. Despite the poor kicking for goal and the haphazard delivery into our forward 50, Roughy and Jones both gave Geelong's best defenders plenty of uncomfortable moments on Friday night. Imagine them in a couple of years when we get cleaner supply out of the middle and they have another couple of years' experience in where to run, and another couple of years to build up their core strength and aerobic capacity. All of Jones, Roughy and Cordy have serious tools to work with.

[Bulldog Joe]

After watching the last few weeks since the Saints abomination, I am especially very bullish about Libba, Wallis and Dahlhaus becoming the cornerstone of our midfield for the next 10+ years. They are all vastly ahead of Boyd and Cross at the same age, not forgetting that these two were the backbone of our midfield during our 3-time top 4 run. Pendlebury and Thomas were ridiculed as not up to it at the same stage of their careers. I think we have a potentially very special group of midfielders on our hands.

I'm not as bullish about our young KPP's, but I'm not as fussed about this either. Mooney and Nablett/Pods/Hawkins was never exactly the greatest bunch of key forwards the game has ever seen but it served Geelong fine for 5 consecutive years. I just want to see continued incremental improvement from Jones, Roughead and Cordy and I will be very comfortable with our key forward stocks. Despite the poor kicking for goal and the haphazard delivery into our forward 50, Roughy and Jones both gave Geelong's best defenders plenty of uncomfortable moments on Friday night. Imagine them in a couple of years when we get cleaner supply out of the middle and they have another couple of years' experience in where to run, and another couple of years to build up their core strength and aerobic capacity. All of Jones, Roughy and Cordy have serious tools to work with.

They are not only well ahead of Boyd and Cross but actually ahead of Bartel and Abblett at the same age.

I'm also with you on the Key forwards. Jones, Roughy and Cordy are all coming along and we have Campbell highly rated to come off the rookie list.

[LostDoggy]

All of this is predicated on Lake playing like Lake.

If we didn't have Brian playing the way he can, our losses would have been far worse. Austin plays well on the second or third forward, but would struggle on Cloke and/or Hawkins. I think Brian is also making Austin look a lot better as a defender (definitely better than he looked at Carlton) as he cuts out so much of the loose forward entry.

Contested possessions are well and good, but when we don't win the contested possession, we still need to be able to shut the game down. I liked our forward pressure which is much better than in Rocket's time, but the better teams are still getting cheap goals on the rebound. I know the gameplan is a work in progress, so I look forward to better and better efficiency.

I think Lake made Rocket look better than his gameplan warranted, and is now making Macca look better than his gameplan warrants as well, but we can't rely on Brian being Brian forever.

[Sedat]

Hear what you are saying Lantern, but you could just as easily say the same about Geelong and Scarlett.

[Sockeye Salmon]

After watching the last few weeks since the Saints abomination, I am especially very bullish about Libba, Wallis and Dahlhaus becoming the cornerstone of our midfield for the next 10+ years. They are all vastly ahead of Boyd and Cross at the same age,

At 19 Boyd was playing for Frankston seconds and not even thinking about getting drafted and Cross was trying to get a senior game at Werribee and worrying about staying on the list.

[bornadog]

No we didn't, we moved the ball on at all costs all the time. Our player's leg speed wasn't quick, but constant movement of the ball made us look quick. The problem was the game pan relied upon executing our skills efficiently all of the time or get burned on the rebound because all of our players were out of position by being offensive.

It worked well against mediocre teams, slaughtered teams full of kids, and constantly fell down against top teams, especially teams with good defence (Hawthorn 08, St Kilda 09, Collingwood 10), plus Geelong played a similar way but had a team with better skills. Having Brian Lake leading the AFL every year in intercept marks covered over a lot of the weaknesses in our game plan, but at the end of the day we lost something in the vicinity of 25 out of 30 games to other top 4 teams during that time, and 6 out out 6 finals. .

We can all go over the same old thing but at the end of the day its not just the game plan, you have to have the players to back it up. There was nothing wrong with the game plan in 2009, we just didn't have a couple of more A grade players like a KPP to execute it. Having said that, we know the 2009 prelim was a close contest, we matched the Saints in every way, but with a bit of luck and stupid umpiring decisions, we could have been in the GF. We had more scoring shots and they had more frees in front of goal.

If Gilbee's or Gia's shots at goal went through and we won, or Reiwold didn't get that free in front of goal, or Akers 50 metre kicked didn't bounce out of bounce and there was no deliberate, I wonder what you would be saying about the game plan?



I think Lake made Rocket look better than his gameplan warranted, and is now making Macca look better than his gameplan warrants as well, but we can't rely on Brian being Brian forever.

Yes Lake made Rocket look good, but hey Rocket was not the one on the ground getting the ball. You need good players otherwise it just won't work.

2009 is gone and the game has changed dramatically. Other coaches saw what we were doing, ie playing on and moving the ball quickly, so they came up with new plans to counteract it, so we move on.

[LostDoggy]

All of this is predicated on Lake playing like Lake.

If we didn't have Brian playing the way he can, our losses would have been far worse. Austin plays well on the second or third forward, but would struggle on Cloke and/or Hawkins. I think Brian is also making Austin look a lot better as a defender (definitely better than he looked at Carlton) as he cuts out so much of the loose forward entry.

Contested possessions are well and good, but when we don't win the contested possession, we still need to be able to shut the game down. I liked our forward pressure which is much better than in Rocket's time, but the better teams are still getting cheap goals on the rebound. I know the gameplan is a work in progress, so I look forward to better and better efficiency.

I think Lake made Rocket look better than his gameplan warranted, and is now making Macca look better than his gameplan warrants as well, but we can't rely on Brian being Brian forever.

Your getting some of it right but not all of it , our undermanned defense has done well but not just because of Lake , they work as a unit regardless of the lineup

Its our oversized midfield that have the responsibility to defend the zones at the top of the defensive 50 , so far they have done well pushing opposition midfielders wide to restrict supply to key forwards

Our focus on numbers at the contest was viewed by Geelong not as an obstacle but an opportunity , we would switch to the wing and the Cats would try to make a contest to get the ball down but refuse to contest with numbers , we would outnumber them and they would peel off to the corridor , on the turnover Motlop and Stringer had the pace to open us up through the corridor but our defense meant they either had to kick the goal from 50m or kick it over the contest

In reality at the moment we are a better Team than Geelong but they have some better individual players

What hurt us against Geelong was having the right player in the wrong place at the right time and Geelong managed to get the right player in the right place at the right time

Lantern the game plan is not completely based on contested possession it just at the moment thats what General Mac wants the Team to focus on as part of a wider program , the fact that we are the number one contested possession Team in the AFL should not be seen as a negative , if we can achieve that by Round 8 what are going to achieve by Round 20 ?

.

[LostDoggy]

I thought Skinner did some good things last night and was exciting at times. In that first pre season match against GWS at the start he looked lively. As you said Maddog37 he needs to get his fitness 100% and hopefully we will see more of him.

I agree. But he also has to learn to be more stable on his feet. He seems to miss most marks that come his way ie he gets hands to them but drops them or misses them altogether. In so doing he often finishes up out of the contest. His extra efforts have sometimes got him back into the contest, but I would like his balance to be better so that he doesn't fall over so much. He allows the opposition a free man when he misses marks or falls to the ground. I'd sometimes prefer in contested situations that he hit the ball away, keep his feet or keep running so as to apply more immediate defensive pressure. He has to be more agile and more mobile at the contest.

Having said that, where is the best place for him to be learning his craft? If you believe this is a development year, then maybe the best thing to do is to get some games into him, at the expense of necessarily winning the game.

[LongWait]

@ Lantern: you imply that McCartney has chosen inside players in the most recent draft instead of more rounded midfielders who can play inside and outside. I think that is unfair - in my view we had the choice between predominantly good inside players, or predominantly good outside players, with all of the "guns" who are elite inside and out having been taken before us, or taken with pre-selections in the previous year by expansion clubs.

I fully support the contested possession-based game plan we are trying to introduce and see being hard at the contest as the cornerstone and the non-negotiable within our future game style. We can, and will, add the silk when the opportunity arises later in the year at the draft and perhaps trade tables.

I'm very sick of us not being able to beat the best teams in the competition, especially in finals, and yet we've been flat-track bullies. I'd rather that we are bullies all of the time.

Bullies by name and bullies by nature!

[LostDoggy]

@ Lantern: you imply that McCartney has chosen inside players in the most recent draft instead of more rounded midfielders who can play inside and outside. I think that is unfair - in my view we had the choice between predominantly good inside players, or predominantly good outside players, with all of the "guns" who are elite inside and out having been taken before us, or taken with pre-selections in the previous year by expansion clubs.

I fully support the contested possession-based game plan we are trying to introduce and see being hard at the contest as the cornerstone and the non-negotiable within our future game style. We can, and will, add the silk when the opportunity arises later in the year at the draft and perhaps trade tables.

I'm very sick of us not being able to beat the best teams in the competition, especially in finals, and yet we've been flat-track bullies. I'd rather that we are bullies all of the time.

Bullies by name and bullies by nature!

Hi Longwait. Good post!

I think you (and others) have slightly misunderstood my point, which is probably my fault for not expressing it properly. We are in complete agreement about Macca's decision to implement a contested possession based game (see my lividness last year when we lost the contested possession count to GC17).

My point is that the 'adding silk' part will not be as easy as we seem to assume. I think with the list we have, getting us back to being a good contested side was not the difficult part (we were no.1 just two and a half years ago after all), and we've always had good inside players. It was easy enough to get us back to no.1 in that respect -- Macca did it almost literally overnight -- and when we were getting pantsed last year I suggested that we just fall back on becoming a 2006 Sydney to grind out a couple of results.

So I'm not discounting our contested possession focus, just saying that it wasn't really a stretch to get us doing well there. The endemic problem has been adding 'skill' to it without losing that edge -- guys like Eagleton, Hill and now Sherman are/were all important cogs but adding players like that definitely took away from our contested ability. We could have played Addison instead of Eagleton in various finals, but that would probably have tipped us TOO far into contested ball and not enough into disposal quality.

Your point about having the choice between inside/outside players, and getting complete types higher up in the draft is a good one, but I don't think it's really that simple.. in the entire AFL there are probably around 10 midfielders who are elite inside AND outside. It doesn't matter how high up the draft you are, these types are very few and far between and quite unique, so it depends a bit on luck to get a high pick in a year that one of these types come along. Most teams have to make do with a mixture of players that are stronger in one or the other aspect. What teams like Geelong have done well is to improve their players' weaker area so that a guy like Selwood can still have some impact with disposal and a guy like Gablett became a contested ball-winning animal even though he didn't really start out that way. Hopefully Macca can bring that to our side so that guys like Wallis, Libba, Dahl, Smith et al become well-rounded players in their own right.

What I'm saying is that we can't just assume that we can add silk without our contested possession strength being impacted in some way (not saying we can't, but it won't be as easy as most seem to be assuming). It's a balance that teams struggle with even at the top end of the table, and getting the mix even slightly wrong can very quickly tip you from being a good team to just a middling one and vice versa.

[Ghost Dog]

Hi Longwait. Good post!



Your point about having the choice between inside/outside players, and getting complete types higher up in the draft is a good one, but I don't think it's really that simple.. in the entire AFL there are probably around 10 midfielders who are elite inside AND outside. It doesn't matter how high up the draft you are, these types are very few and far between and quite unique, so it depends a bit on luck to get a high pick in a year that one of these types come along. Most teams have to make do with a mixture of players that .

Do you think any of our young kids have the ability to reach the heights of Griffen and other inside / outside dashers?

[Mofra]

Do you think any of our young kids have the ability to reach the heights of Griffen and other inside / outside dashers?
Libba's left foot can be very damaging so he could play outside if need be but he's not a linebreaker.

[Eastdog]

Libba's left foot can be very damaging so he could play outside if need be but he's not a linebreaker.

Could Dahlhaus reach those heights? Would you class him as an attacking midfielder?

[LongWait]

Hi Longwait. Good post!

I think you (and others) have slightly misunderstood my point, which is probably my fault for not expressing it properly. We are in complete agreement about Macca's decision to implement a contested possession based game (see my lividness last year when we lost the contested possession count to GC17).

My point is that the 'adding silk' part will not be as easy as we seem to assume. I think with the list we have, getting us back to being a good contested side was not the difficult part (we were no.1 just two and a half years ago after all), and we've always had good inside players. It was easy enough to get us back to no.1 in that respect -- Macca did it almost literally overnight -- and when we were getting pantsed last year I suggested that we just fall back on becoming a 2006 Sydney to grind out a couple of results.

So I'm not discounting our contested possession focus, just saying that it wasn't really a stretch to get us doing well there. The endemic problem has been adding 'skill' to it without losing that edge -- guys like Eagleton, Hill and now Sherman are/were all important cogs but adding players like that definitely took away from our contested ability. We could have played Addison instead of Eagleton in various finals, but that would probably have tipped us TOO far into contested ball and not enough into disposal quality.

Your point about having the choice between inside/outside players, and getting complete types higher up in the draft is a good one, but I don't think it's really that simple.. in the entire AFL there are probably around 10 midfielders who are elite inside AND outside. It doesn't matter how high up the draft you are, these types are very few and far between and quite unique, so it depends a bit on luck to get a high pick in a year that one of these types come along. Most teams have to make do with a mixture of players that are stronger in one or the other aspect. What teams like Geelong have done well is to improve their players' weaker area so that a guy like Selwood can still have some impact with disposal and a guy like Gablett became a contested ball-winning animal even though he didn't really start out that way. Hopefully Macca can bring that to our side so that guys like Wallis, Libba, Dahl, Smith et al become well-rounded players in their own right.

What I'm saying is that we can't just assume that we can add silk without our contested possession strength being impacted in some way (not saying we can't, but it won't be as easy as most seem to be assuming). It's a balance that teams struggle with even at the top end of the table, and getting the mix even slightly wrong can very quickly tip you from being a good team to just a middling one and vice versa.

I'm not sure whether you are contradicting yourself with the above bolded statements, or I'm still not getting you. Maybe we are saying the same thing in different ways?

Winning contested ball and defending well all over the ground is the cornerstone and the non-negotiable; next comes improvement in the team structure once everyone knows how to execute the non-negotiables (and we get rid of those who can't/won't). The team structure involves finding enough players who can hold their ends up in the non-negotiables but are also above average in their effectiveness by hand and foot and can also play specific roles (midfield, tall forward, key defender, rebound defender etc.)

I agree that some of our players in the past were contested ball beasts and they made the team look better statistically, whereas teams like Geelong and Hawthorn were so much more effective at contested ball even though statistcially we might have looked better than them.

Where we failed miserably though was in being very good defensively across the ground. Good teams which won enough ball could open us up almost at will. This is the part of the Macca gameplan and style that we've never mastered in the last decade.

And finally, as you acknowledged, some players can be taught to improve their disposal efficiency and/or their defensive effectiveness. We will find out which of our current players in the coming months and years.

Good discussion.

[stefoid]

Crozier might get a game for Freo pretty soon - will be interesting to see how he goes since he was going to be Dalrymples choice.

Also Brad McKenzie who went imedaitely after our pick - a guy I was hoping we would get.

[Eastdog]

Crozier might get a game for Freo pretty soon - will be interesting to see how he goes since he was going to be Dalrymples choice.

Also Brad McKenzie who went imedaitely after our pick - a guy I was hoping we would get.

Andrew Moore from the Eastern Ranges also was another guy that could have gone to us but Port Adelaide picked him up in the end.

[LostDoggy]

I'm not sure whether you are contradicting yourself with the above bolded statements, or I'm still not getting you. Maybe we are saying the same thing in different ways?
.

No no, we agree. I'm just saying it's not going to be easy. Selwood and Gablett are exceptional players and great students of the game. I guess we're as well placed as anyone with Macca knowing what it took with those guys as well as Libba, Wallis and Dahlhaus having quite a lot to work with.

Many other teams have tried and failed -- even this season alone, look at a team like Carlton, which has spent a LOT of time on building that midfield group, but is finding it hard to be both good at winning the ball AND good at using it. Hawthorn are in the same position -- they relied a lot on Bateman to give them good ball use out of the middle, and recruited Burgoyne to do the same, but with Chance struggling and Burgoyne getting on a bit, Mitchell and Sewell getting first hands on it out of the middle just isn't enough anymore because the game is becoming as much about the third disposal and the counter as it is about the first (which is what footy has traditionally focused on). It's really tricky getting the mix right.

---

ps. This is not a purely theoretical exercise, it's a direct gameplan design issue. If we are contested ball winners but bad ball users, we should design a gameplan that ensures that we don't give simply focus on getting forward clearances if they keep resulting in rebound goals (Geelong scored at least 5 of their goals on the weekend this way). This has a direct impact on our player instruction -- for example, 'forcing the ball forward' is a footy truism, but if we tend to give up goals by doing that, we should stop, and maybe our style has to become more possession focused ie. more sideways. Anyway, just thinking.

[Sedat]

No no, we agree. I'm just saying it's not going to be easy. Selwood and Gablett are exceptional players and great students of the game. I guess we're as well placed as anyone with Macca knowing what it took with those guys as well as Libba, Wallis and Dahlhaus having quite a lot to work with.I think Dogs supporters to an extent, and definitely the wider football public, are grossly under-estimating the progress that these 3 are making and the influence they are consistently having at the highest level. Dahlhaus has made such drastic leaps and bounds in 12 months that we supporters are almost ho-hum about his last few weeks of football, but what I'm seeing is a young mid impacting in the midfield coalface as well as continuing to generate multiple score involvements - we're seeing less of the running and weaving forward of centre but I'm no less excited by what he's doing at the moment in at the clearances. And Libba and Wallis are both borderline elite with their hands in traffic already. Let's take a second to see how old they are and compare the best mids today at the same stage of their careers...apart from Joel Selwood and Chris Judd (who are both freaks), no other champion midfielder in today's game were at the same level at the age of 19/20 in the 2nd year of their contract. Maybe Dustin Martin (he's more of a one-way mover in any event) but that's about it.

The key will be to keep improving and to keep working hard, but it is impossible not to be excited by what these guys are producing right here and now and to cast our minds forward another 2-3 seasons to what they might become.

[dog town]

The key will be to keep improving and to keep working hard, but it is impossible not to be excited by what these guys are producing right here and now and to cast our minds forward another 2-3 seasons to what they might become. They are developing nicely. The younger players seem to be responding really well to Macca in terms of development. All of a sudden we seem to be creating a culture where our young players come on quickly. These 2 were both bloooded by Eade and now Macca is finishing them off nicely.

It is not just Wallis and Libba either. Just glimpes from some players week to week give me confidence. The free kick Roughhead got in the free kick is a good example. The body positioning he used would not have been used 3 weeks ago.

[Ghost Dog]

I think Dogs supporters to an extent, and definitely the wider football public, are grossly under-estimating the progress that these 3 are making and the influence they are consistently having at the highest level. Dahlhaus has made such drastic leaps and bounds in 12 months that we supporters are almost ho-hum about his last few weeks of football, but what I'm seeing is a young mid impacting in the midfield coalface as well as continuing to generate multiple score involvements - we're seeing less of the running and weaving forward of centre but I'm no less excited by what he's doing at the moment in at the clearances. And Libba and Wallis are both borderline elite with their hands in traffic already. Let's take a second to see how old they are and compare the best mids today at the same stage of their careers...apart from Joel Selwood and Chris Judd (who are both freaks), no other champion midfielder in today's game were at the same level at the age of 19/20 in the 2nd year of their contract. Maybe Dustin Martin (he's more of a one-way mover in any event) but that's about it.

The key will be to keep improving and to keep working hard, but it is impossible not to be excited by what these guys are producing right here and now and to cast our minds forward another 2-3 seasons to what they might become.

Great post. This is one reason why I think we may start to see them out of the team now and then, as Bmac rotates kids, trying to see what he can get out of them.
As for these three, you know you get 100% effort, and mainly concerned they are not put under duress, too much too soon, which may cause injury.