Brendan McCartney on the couch Monday

[Greystache]

Not great timing for one of his few media appearances to date, no doubt he'll wish he had've been on a week or two ago.

It'll be interesting to get his take on went went so wrong today.

[azabob]

Not great timing for one of his few media appearances to date, no doubt he'll wish he had've been on a week or two ago.

It'll be interesting to get his take on went went so wrong today.

Its time's like these I wish I had fox.

[bornadog]

Thanks Stache, will still be interesting to hear what he says after a smashing.

[Mantis]

Why should we expect anything other than a calm 'father' like attitude from Brendan.

I can't see him getting too carried away on a pretty reasonable season thus far, bar 2 absolute shockers.

[Greystache]

Why should we expect anything other than a calm 'father' like attitude from Brendan.

I can't see him getting too carried away on a pretty reasonable season thus far, bar 2 absolute shockers.

I'm wondering if he can give any insight on why those two shockers occured. Like you said we've actually had a pretty reasonable season, just with two stand out horror performances.

We've always been like that as a club, never able to string more than 4-6 games together without a major let down, I wonder if he has any thought on it culturally.

[LostDoggy]

Thanks for the heads-up. Don't usually watch this, but I will tune in tonight and see if BMac has any insights for me!

[Desipura]

Why should we expect anything other than a calm 'father' like attitude from Brendan.

I can't see him getting too carried away on a pretty reasonable season thus far, bar 2 absolute shockers.

After quarter time on the weekend, when interviewed he said thats not the real us, we are better than that. Wonder what he thought after the 4 quarters when we were worse :eek:

[Mofra]

After quarter time on the weekend, when interviewed he said thats not the real us, we are better than that. Wonder what he thought after the 4 quarters when we were worse :eek:
The TV commentary did note that at 3 quarter time B-Mac seemed clam and almost "teacher like" in firing off questions to the group.

I'd say that B-Mac is one of the few coaches that seem to hold his nerve well (whether he always should is another question entirely).

[bornadog]

The TV commentary did note that at 3 quarter time B-Mac seemed clam and almost "teacher like" in firing off questions to the group.

I'd say that B-Mac is one of the few coaches that seem to hold his nerve well (whether he always should is another question entirely).

I would hate to seem him lose it like some coaches. Those days are gone and don't work any more.

[LostDoggy]

The TV commentary did note that at 3 quarter time B-Mac seemed clam and almost "teacher like" in firing off questions to the group.

I'd say that B-Mac is one of the few coaches that seem to hold his nerve well (whether he always should is another question entirely).

I've noticed this as well. It's going to be an immense asset the day he really goes off his rocker, as it'll have so much more impact.

[Mantis]

I've noticed this as well. It's going to be an immense asset the day he really goes off his rocker, as it'll have so much more impact.

If he hasn't 'gone off', even in the privacy of the change rooms after our losses to St.Kilda and again yesterday he never will.

Both of these performances were disgustingly bad.

[LostDoggy]

Post match he suggested positioning was a key problem as it made it so much harder for us. We win as a team. We sink as a team. There will be some players "educated" .

We didn't adapt either to what was being done to us.

I assume this would refer to how to better position themselves outside the contest (not letting them get goal side and out the back), and how to assist team mates get more time to kick without there being so much pressure on them.

[Sedat]

We've always been like that as a club, never able to string more than 4-6 games together without a major let down, I wonder if he has any thought on it culturally.I don't think the current playing group are failing to string games together because of some kind of cultural reasons due to lack of succes, I just think it is a talent thing. Talent wise, we were always been behind the likes of Geelong, St Kilda and Collingwood during our recent contending era and right now were are a long way down in terms of pure talent. I think only in 1997 could you mount an argument to suggest that we failed to win a premiership for any reasons other than talent.

[Maddog37]

Also would suggest that our development of talent is not where we would like it largely due to resources.

[Mofra]

I don't think the current playing group are failing to string games together because of some kind of cultural reasons due to lack of succes, I just think it is a talent thing. Talent wise, we were always been behind the likes of Geelong, St Kilda and Collingwood during our recent contending era and right now were are a long way down in terms of pure talent. I think only in 1997 could you mount an argument to suggest that we failed to win a premiership for any reasons other than talent.
I'm not sure our loss yesterday was simply due to talent - our midfield structure/positioning was cut to pieces

[DragzLS1]

I hope Bmac is saving it for a Grand Final in 2016, where at half time we are 22 points behind, he goes into the change rooms and gives the boys a good spray like they have never seen over the 4 years! They realise, this is serious sh1t now, ome out the 2nd half and slap the other team by 16 points, in 2016, where Griffen wins teh Brownlow, and North Smith, and happens to be number 16 himself..

ahhh.. We can only hope they are his plans

[LongWait]

Post match he suggested positioning was a key problem as it made it so much harder for us. We win as a team. We sink as a team. There will be some players "educated" .

We didn't adapt either to what was being done to us.

I assume this would refer to how to better position themselves outside the contest (not letting them get goal side and out the back), and how to assist team mates get more time to kick without there being so much pressure on them.

This is a real problem for us every game and was particularly evident yesterday. Our stoppage positioning both around the stoppage itself and further up and down the ground is awful and was exploited by Sydney all day.

[LostDoggy]

Well, let's see how they adapt against Port.

[angelopetraglia]

Anyone watch him On the Couch? What did you think? Pretty soft questions. I didn't learn too much.

[AndrewP6]

Anyone watch him On the Couch? What did you think? Pretty soft questions. I didn't learn too much.

Yep, nothing there of any note really.

[bornadog]

Anyone watch him On the Couch? What did you think? Pretty soft questions. I didn't learn too much.

I watched it and agree the questioning was pathetic and as usual that show gives us less time than any other team. Most other interviews go for far longer and they really delve into those clubs, but with Brendan it was barely 5 minutes.

The one thing he did say was we are desperate for a mid size quick forward who can also kick goals.

[LostDoggy]

This is a real problem for us every game and was particularly evident yesterday. Our stoppage positioning both around the stoppage itself and further up and down the ground is awful and was exploited by Sydney all day.

You asked me why I questioned Macca's canniness on another thread. You've answered your own question here.

I have no doubt he's a great developer of people, but his tactical nous has been shown up more than once this year, and we are definitely the side getting 'sucker punched', by little moves by opposition coaches here and there, the most out of any team I've watched in 2012. We give up a lot of goals just by being a bit naive in our approach to the game, and I think the coach has a lot to do with that.

[LostDoggy]

I watched it and agree the questioning was pathetic and as usual that show gives us less time than any other team. Most other interviews go for far longer and they really delve into those clubs, but with Brendan it was barely 5 minutes.

The one thing he did say was we are desperate for a mid size quick forward who can also kick goals.

There's the rub. You could only use that in reference to Griff, Dahl or Wood with a straight face and it ain't enough.

[AndrewP6]

There's the rub. You could only use that in reference to Griff, Dahl or Wood with a straight face and it ain't enough.

And only one of those is a regular forward.

[Remi Moses]

The interviews are usually fluffy. Swans got goal side on our Forward entries, we need a mid size option or two. Stuff we all know

[jeemak]

I watched it and agree the questioning was pathetic and as usual that show gives us less time than any other team. Most other interviews go for far longer and they really delve into those clubs, but with Brendan it was barely 5 minutes.

The one thing he did say was we are desperate for a mid size quick forward who can also kick goals.

We cop the same across all media. I remember listening to Rocket get cut off on SEN in the morning due to a need to cross to the 8:30am news. A week later Malthouse wasn't, at the same time of day (I'm really glad I don't listen to SEN anymore, there'd be no way I'd be able to retain the information I absorbed at uni these last twelve months if I did!).

I agree that we need a quick medium sized genuine forward, urgently. I've said in other threads one is the equal of any priority at our club, aside from a genuinely quick midfielder with excellent skills. I think the inconsistent output from Gia and Higgins at times has shown how hard this position is to master on a weekly basis, for mine, it's probably the hardest position to play on the ground in the modern game.


You asked me why I questioned Macca's canniness on another thread. You've answered your own question here.

I have no doubt he's a great developer of people, but his tactical nous has been shown up more than once this year, and we are definitely the side getting 'sucker punched', by little moves by opposition coaches here and there, the most out of any team I've watched in 2012. We give up a lot of goals just by being a bit naive in our approach to the game, and I think the coach has a lot to do with that.

I haven't seen enough of the team live to make a judgement on this, though in some respects I agree with you. Whether it is all McCartney or the players or a bit of both I'm not sure however, I have been concerned with the "cracking in" at all costs philosophy that has a tendency to mess up the balance at contests and loose ball situations.

It's all exacerbated by our innexperienced forward line, aside from Hggins and Gia, not being able to cope with the poor delivery and retard the opposition from moving the ball out quickly. The pace issues of the aforementioned senior players contribute to this as well.

With respect to "cracking in" I really hope it's a short term measure to sort out who is prepared to contest and follow instructions at a basic level. I think the team is demonstrating most if not all members have been prepared to do this, and it's imperative we start seeing other layers being added to this simplistic philosophy in the second half of the season.

McCartney's comments post match suggested there was an element of our players not following instructions for setting up at stoppages and around the ground. It will be interesting to see if there is evidence of improvement in this area over the coming two months, because it's sorely needed.

[LongWait]

You asked me why I questioned Macca's canniness on another thread. You've answered your own question here.

I have no doubt he's a great developer of people, but his tactical nous has been shown up more than once this year, and we are definitely the side getting 'sucker punched', by little moves by opposition coaches here and there, the most out of any team I've watched in 2012. We give up a lot of goals just by being a bit naive in our approach to the game, and I think the coach has a lot to do with that.

The coaching staff's ability to quickly teach and get player adherence to the correct positioning at stoppages has little or nothing to do with "canniness".

The previous coach had 7 years to teach the players how to position themselves correctly and didn't bother or couldn't, but now the problem (which we've had since I can remember) is evidence of a lack of "canniness" from McCartney? I think not.

[Mofra]

It's rarely the senior coach alone that comes up with a plan for the opposition each week. The man on man style worked wonders against North as it forced them to rush their handball style game, causing turnovers.
Sydney destroyed us due to their positioning around the stoppages.
Give and take.

[LostDoggy]

It's rarely the senior coach alone that comes up with a plan for the opposition each week. The man on man style worked wonders against North as it forced them to rush their handball style game, causing turnovers.
Sydney destroyed us due to their positioning around the stoppages.
Give and take.

The man-on-man style "worked" on North because they are a rabble. Anything should work on that mob (I know they beat Geelong but that's footy isn't it).

I stand by my comments that Macca is not a tactical genius -- his gameplan is basically Geelong 2008 (without the cattle), and his gameday adjustments are generally slow and obvious, and he doesn't seem to have the intuitive rat cunning that the best gameday coaches do, so tends to get blindsided by lateral moves by opposition coaches. Anyone is of course free to disagree and I guess we'll see in due time won't we.

No reason why we couldn't still be successful though -- tactics are only one component of football.

[LostDoggy]

The coaching staff's ability to quickly teach and get player adherence to the correct positioning at stoppages has little or nothing to do with "canniness".

The previous coach had 7 years to teach the players how to position themselves correctly and didn't bother or couldn't, but now the problem (which we've had since I can remember) is evidence of a lack of "canniness" from McCartney? I think not.

The only person I remember saying that Rocket didn't position players well at stoppages is Macca (implied in a comment that he had to educate players on this stuff). Yet, one of those guys senior coached his teams to 3 prelims and a grand final, and the other guy is 10 games into a senior gig, so maybe it should be taken with a grain of salt: of course Rocket knew how he wanted his clearance set-ups done, and, from all evidence, it generally worked pretty well.

The evidence goes beyond just clearances too. We have been hit over the back more than any team this season, and I'm sure if stats were kept on this stuff, we would see that more backmen have snuck forward (while still playing as backmen, not swapped into the forwardline) to kick goals on us than on any other team in the comp. One could say it's because Gia and Higgo are so slow that smart opposition coaches just get their younger, faster, fitter defenders to sneak forward because Gia and Higgo won't follow them, but that requires a counter-move from Macca, and 10 games in, it's still happening with monotonous regularity. I don't even mind if we see a counter-move tried, even if it doesn't work, but I don't think the players are even noticing the problem, which tells me that the coaching staff haven't noticed it either and are just putting it down to normal game circumstances.

Having said that, I know Macca is still teaching the team to play the way he wants, so the jury is out. Do you really think he's a tactical genius, LongWait?

[Mantis]

It's rarely the senior coach alone that comes up with a plan for the opposition each week. The man on man style worked wonders against North as it forced them to rush their handball style game, causing turnovers.
Sydney destroyed us due to their positioning around the stoppages.
Give and take.

As did St.Kilda, who also sat off us at the clearances and then thumped us when we turned it over.

So far we have beaten the 3 worst teams in the competition and one which is a bit of a basket case. And while being competitive and threatening at times in the rest we haven't been sharp enough to beat teams who are slightly better than us.

The rest of the season has a number of 50:50 games (including the next 2), a number that look like certain losses, but not too many where we look certain winners so it's going to be interesting to see how we finish the season off.

As with comments that Lantern has posted our in game coaching has been indifferent, I guess Macca is still probably coming to grips with being the 'ship steerer' on game day, but he needs to find his feet sooner rather than later... That fact that he has very little experience in the box to help him wouldn't make it any easier.

[DragzLS1]

I think we need to give Macca the 2nd half of the year to see improvements. I think he has been very good soo far for a coach who has never played AFL football himself and is only 10 games in to his coaching career with a club who is in the middle of a rebuild.

[Sedat]

The coaching staff's ability to quickly teach and get player adherence to the correct positioning at stoppages has little or nothing to do with "canniness".

The previous coach had 7 years to teach the players how to position themselves correctly and didn't bother or couldn't, but now the problem (which we've had since I can remember) is evidence of a lack of "canniness" from McCartney? I think not.This is not a referrendum on McCartney v Eade. Rocket's time at the club has long ended and his record with us is well and truly secure. Your thoughts and perspectives on Rocket's tenure are well known (as are mine) and you are more than entitled to air them on 'woof' for discussion and dissemination, but this thread is not about Rocket, it is about our new senior coach.

Like all first time coaches, McCartney is finding his feet in what is a brutal caper and working with the tools he has at his disposal. The good has definitely outweighed the bad thus far IMO, but it is OK for some of us to be concerned with 2 utterly non-competitive performances in 10 weeks - that makes for 4 a season which one would hope is a pattern that is eradicated sooner rather than later. Rome wasn't built in a day and getting the base right is a critically important part of the equation, but there is more to becoming a successful team than just 'cracking in' - I wholeheartedly trust McCartney to understand this intimately and to work on teaching the playing group to become fully rounded players. I will say this though...McCartney will be working with one hand tied behind his back if he cannot get the requisite support from Simon Dalrymple in identifying talents and skill sets in new draftees that our club is currently in short supply of, Jason McCartney in developing a well-rounded playing list, and the rest of the footy dept in supporting Brendan's efforts as senior coach. These are issues out of his full control, and his coaching career will ultimately live and die by the decisions in list management and the draft table in the next year or two.

[Mantis]

Like all first time coaches, McCartney is finding his feet in what is a brutal caper and working with the tools he has at his disposal. The good has definitely outweighed the bad thus far IMO, but it is OK for some of us to be concerned with 2 utterly non-competitive performances in 10 weeks - that makes for 4 a season which one would hope is a pattern that is eradicated sooner rather than later. Rome wasn't built in a day and getting the base right is a critically important part of the equation, but there is more to becoming a successful team than just 'cracking in' - I wholeheartedly trust McCartney to understand this intimately and to work on teaching the playing group to become fully rounded players. I will say this though...McCartney will be working with one hand tied behind his back if he cannot get the requisite support from Simon Dalrymple in identifying talents and skill sets in new draftees that our club is currently in short supply of, Jason McCartney in developing a well-rounded playing list, and the rest of the footy dept in supporting Brendan's efforts as senior coach. These are issues out of his full control, and his coaching career will ultimately live and die by the decisions in list management and the draft table in the next year or two.

But doesn't the coach also need to let Simon do his job?

Stories around draft time were that Brendan wanted 'hard nuts', whereas Simon had his eye on some spread (outside) types which our team/ list is screaming out for.... Smith is going to be a solid player for us, but in the balance of things he wasn't the type we needed at that point in time.

[Mofra]

Like all first time coaches, McCartney is finding his feet in what is a brutal caper and working with the tools he has at his disposal. The good has definitely outweighed the bad thus far IMO, but it is OK for some of us to be concerned with 2 utterly non-competitive performances in 10 weeks - that makes for 4 a season which one would hope is a pattern that is eradicated sooner rather than later.
I think that's the rub - for mine, his good outweighs the bad, and tactical nous is somethign that can be developed and supported by assistant coaching staff (and the "football director" role some clubs tend to favour with Thompson & Eade).
FWIW the criticisms of B-Mac on Woof tend to be more measured and constructive as well - this thread is a good example, no histerics.

[1eyedog]

The man-on-man style "worked" on North because they are a rabble. Anything should work on that mob (I know they beat Geelong but that's footy isn't it).

I stand by my comments that Macca is not a tactical genius -- his gameplan is basically Geelong 2008 (without the cattle), and his gameday adjustments are generally slow and obvious, and he doesn't seem to have the intuitive rat cunning that the best gameday coaches do, so tends to get blindsided by lateral moves by opposition coaches. Anyone is of course free to disagree and I guess we'll see in due time won't we.

No reason why we couldn't still be successful though -- tactics are only one component of football.

Probably why I supported the option to get Laidley over as support for Macca. He is far superior to Macca in terms of tactical nous and he was the best candidate available at the time.

[Sedat]

Stories around draft time were that Brendan wanted 'hard nuts', whereas Simon had his eye on some spread (outside) types which our team/ list is screaming out for.... Smith is going to be a solid player for us, but in the balance of things he wasn't the type we needed at that point in time.Only time will tell, but it will be interesting keeping an eye on Hayden Crozier's progress and also Brad McKenzie's - like Smith, both have already had a taste at this level. I'm comfortable that Clay Smith will have a very solid AFL career for us - he's simply too ferocious a ball hunter and loves physical contact for him not to have an impact at this level - but like you I have my concerns about overlooking genuine talent with skill with pace (even if a little underdeveloped physically) when presented with a top 20 pick. We won't know the merits or otherwise of our 2011 ND decisions for a good 2-3 years at least.

Of course we would not have needed to draft a Smith type had we been able to hold onto Ward but that is a topic for another day ;)

[Cyberdoggie]

If he hasn't 'gone off', even in the privacy of the change rooms after our losses to St.Kilda and again yesterday he never will.

Both of these performances were disgustingly bad.

My 7 week old child decided to drop the mother of all load's halfway through the first quarter, i guess she wasn't happy with that performance either.

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

I hope Bmac is saving it for a Grand Final in 2016, where at half time we are 22 points behind, he goes into the change rooms and gives the boys a good spray like they have never seen over the 4 years! They realise, this is serious sh1t now, ome out the 2nd half and slap the other team by 16 points, in 2016, where Griffen wins teh Brownlow, and North Smith, and happens to be number 16 himself..

ahhh.. We can only hope they are his plans

Love your work

[Mantis]

Probably why I supported the option to get Laidley over as support for Macca. He is far superior to Macca in terms of tactical nous and he was the best candidate available at the time.

Would we have the $$'s to get involved in that sort of deal?

On that topic there was some interesting discussion on AFL 360 last night... With the hosts both Rocket & 'Bomber' Thompson provided some interesting thoughts on where the off-field game is heading and that the gap between the haves and the have nots is going to continue to widen.... Without saying too much you could tell that Rocket has seen a huge gap between what we have and what we have to deal with compared to Collingwood.

[Cyberdoggie]

You asked me why I questioned Macca's canniness on another thread. You've answered your own question here.

I have no doubt he's a great developer of people, but his tactical nous has been shown up more than once this year, and we are definitely the side getting 'sucker punched', by little moves by opposition coaches here and there, the most out of any team I've watched in 2012. We give up a lot of goals just by being a bit naive in our approach to the game, and I think the coach has a lot to do with that.

I don't disagree, we have made some strange match day moves and especially sub choices. I also wonder how much of that is the coaches decision, as he spends a lot of time on the bench and seems to put faith in his coaching staff above to orchestrate things.

[stefoid]

I watched it and agree the questioning was pathetic and as usual that show gives us less time than any other team. Most other interviews go for far longer and they really delve into those clubs, but with Brendan it was barely 5 minutes.

The one thing he did say was we are desperate for a mid size quick forward who can also kick goals.

A forward who can kick goals, eh?

the man is a genius :cool:

[1eyedog]

Would we have the $$'s to get involved in that sort of deal?

On that topic there was some interesting discussion on AFL 360 last night... With the hosts both Rocket & 'Bomber' Thompson provided some interesting thoughts on where the off-field game is heading and that the gap between the haves and the have nots is going to continue to widen.... Without saying too much you could tell that Rocket has seen a huge gap between what we have and what we have to deal with compared to Collingwood.

I'm honestly not sure, probably not at the time when Macca came on board but I doubt if Laidely would have cost us fortune at the time, we may have had to cough up an additional 100-150k on top of Grant or King's salary to get him. I would prefer Laidley in the coaches box next to Macca than Grant or King who appeared to be safe options for Macca (no I do not mean yes men).

Senior coaches (mentors) in the coaches box is the new black, especially with first time coaches (Rocket, Laidley, Craig, Thompson)and I think we should start thinking about this as an option before we start loading up on the Clokes, Boaks. Alot of people disagreed with the Laidley option but for what he would provide (pure match day tactics and support for Macca) I thought he could have been a fantastic support.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I dont know whether we had the dollars, but I dont think Laidley was available to us.
Watters and him were Eagles teammates many moons ago right?

[Ghost Dog]

We cop the same across all media. I remember listening to Rocket get cut off on SEN in the morning due to a need to cross to the 8:30am news. A week later Malthouse wasn't, at the same time of day (I'm really glad I don't listen to SEN anymore, there'd be no way I'd be able to retain the information I absorbed at uni these last twelve months if I did!).

I agree that we need a quick medium sized genuine forward, urgently. I've said in other threads one is the equal of any priority at our club, aside from a genuinely quick midfielder with excellent skills. I think the inconsistent output from Gia and Higgins at times has shown how hard this position is to master on a weekly basis, for mine, it's probably the hardest position to play on the ground in the modern game.
.

While I do enjoy Brendan's 'loving father' delivery, I wonder if any of our leaders will be ever dropped?
Higgins and Gia are so similar in pace. It's getting to the stage where one of them may have to make way for someone a little faster.

[stefoid]

Well yeah, but all Gia and other small forwards really want is for the ball to be kicked vaguely to their advantage. Do that and he will kick 4 goals a game.

I still maintain that our signficant problem is getting clean ball through the midfield and stopping the opposition from doing the same. Its when that breaks down that we get pumped.

I would love to be privvy to Macs real thoughts on Grant and Sherman, because we have all the pace injection into the forward half we need right there, with some crumbing skill to boot.

[w3design]

While I do enjoy Brendan's 'loving father' delivery, I wonder if any of our leaders will be ever dropped?
Higgins and Gia are so similar in pace. It's getting to the stage where one of them may have to make way for someone a little faster.

Have to agree with you on this one Ghost. I think there is only room for one of Missy and Gia, who play a very similar game as forwards. While they are pretty much the only regular contributors to goals scored, dropping or moving out one of them is difficult unfortunately.
We desperately need at least two others down forward who contribute multiple goals regularly.
Once we develop or acquire those guys, one of who surely needs to be a crumber with goal sense and blistering pace, one of Gia and Missy might need to reinvent themselves to remain in the side.

[bornadog]

While I do enjoy Brendan's 'loving father' delivery, I wonder if any of our leaders will be ever dropped?
Higgins and Gia are so similar in pace. It's getting to the stage where one of them may have to make way for someone a little faster.

The trouble is no one is putting up their hand to play. Last weeks effort by the Bulldogs players at Willi was woeful to say the least.

[bornadog]

Have to agree with you on this one Ghost. I think there is only room for one of Missy and Gia, who play a very similar game as forwards. While they are pretty much the only regular contributors to goals scored, dropping or moving out one of them is difficult unfortunately.
We desperately need at least two others down forward who contribute multiple goals regularly.
Once we develop or acquire those guys, one of who surely needs to be a crumber with goal sense and blistering pace, one of Gia and Missy might need to reinvent themselves to remain in the side.

Brendan was asked if Higgins will be moved to the backline and he answered yes and said they did last week in the second half.

I would like to see him in the backline as he can deliver the ball well. Last year Rocket tried him there and he did well.

[Sedat]

I would like to see him in the backline as he can deliver the ball well. Last year Rocket tried him there and he did well.Only until Craig Bird got a hold of him and carved him up with 4 goals. That's the dilemna with creative types down back such as Bob, Higgins and Vesz - they will get scored against as they provide attacking rebound drive. To me, this is a necessary 'cost of doing business' so to speak as we really need to provide our forwards with enough quality ball to impact on the scoreboard.

[FrediKanoute]

Probably why I supported the option to get Laidley over as support for Macca. He is far superior to Macca in terms of tactical nous and he was the best candidate available at the time.

Laidley may be tactically better than McCartney, but he is a poor coach overall. I have never seen a coach who could so often get his team into winning positions and then not close out the game. We would be ringing our hands at the moment. He is not a good coach and would have been the wrong fit for us. What did he achieve at North?

My take on Macca and the position we are in is that we remain a work in progress. We will have good games and poor games. We will finish bottom half of the table. Importantly though we are getting games into young guys as well as developing a style of football which is honest rather than flashy, that when our younger guys mature physically will make us tough to beat.

Losing a battle doesn't necessarily mean you lose the war. Take the 2 non-competitive losses for what they were and look instead at the overall. Wins against sides we should have beaten. Competitive losses against top 4 contenders. Its all moving in the right direction.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

This is not a referrendum on McCartney v Eade. Rocket's time at the club has long ended and his record with us is well and truly secure. Your thoughts and perspectives on Rocket's tenure are well known (as are mine) and you are more than entitled to air them on 'woof' for discussion and dissemination, but this thread is not about Rocket, it is about our new senior coach.

Like all first time coaches, McCartney is finding his feet in what is a brutal caper and working with the tools he has at his disposal. The good has definitely outweighed the bad thus far IMO, but it is OK for some of us to be concerned with 2 utterly non-competitive performances in 10 weeks - that makes for 4 a season which one would hope is a pattern that is eradicated sooner rather than later. Rome wasn't built in a day and getting the base right is a critically important part of the equation, but there is more to becoming a successful team than just 'cracking in' - I wholeheartedly trust McCartney to understand this intimately and to work on teaching the playing group to become fully rounded players. I will say this though...McCartney will be working with one hand tied behind his back if he cannot get the requisite support from Simon Dalrymple in identifying talents and skill sets in new draftees that our club is currently in short supply of, Jason McCartney in developing a well-rounded playing list, and the rest of the footy dept in supporting Brendan's efforts as senior coach. These are issues out of his full control, and his coaching career will ultimately live and die by the decisions in list management and the draft table in the next year or two.

Great measured post Sedat.


Would we have the $$'s to get involved in that sort of deal?

On that topic there was some interesting discussion on AFL 360 last night... With the hosts both Rocket & 'Bomber' Thompson provided some interesting thoughts on where the off-field game is heading and that the gap between the haves and the have nots is going to continue to widen.... Without saying too much you could tell that Rocket has seen a huge gap between what we have and what we have to deal with compared to Collingwood.

Depressing, isn't it?

[mjp]

I actually enjoyed the interview and thought it went for about the 'normal' amount of time - and yes, I watch the show every week.

I remain baffled though by talk about lacking mid-sized forwards both by McCartney and on this thread. Didn't we play THREE of them on the weekend - Gia, Higgins and Dickson? And couldn't your argue we played FIVE (add Veszpremi and Murphy who also went down there to the list). And didn't a SIXTH (Skinner) travel? And yet another - Sherman - get dropped?

If everyone is waiting for the second coming of Brad Johnson or for Stevie J to see the light and migrate across from the Pies - it is going to be a cold winter! Who else is even out there? And - to get back on my favorite hobby horse - if mid-size forwards are the priority, then why select Smith over Crozier????

[Rocco Jones]

If everyone is waiting for the second coming of Brad Johnson or for Stevie J to see the light and migrate across from the Pies - it is going to be a cold winter! Who else is even out there?

It's going to very long if we have to wait for him to join Collingwood and then see the light and join us.

[AndrewP6]

I think we need to give Macca the 2nd half of the year to see improvements. I think he has been very good soo far for a coach who has never played AFL football himself and is only 10 games in to his coaching career with a club who is in the middle of a rebuild.

Yet people seem to say this doesn't matter.

[Dazza]

He also mentioned Grant needs to bulk up. Any chance this is the reason he's been out the past couple of weeks without explanation?

[azabob]

Yet people seem to say this doesn't matter.

Do you think it matters? Personally I don't.

[AndrewP6]

Do you think it matters? Personally I don't.

Yeah I do. I just don't see that someone who has never played at the highest level can speak with great authority on it.

[Before I Die]

Yeah I do. I just don't see that someone who has never played at the highest level can speak with great authority on it.

This from a teacher??


Coaching and playing are completely different activities with very limited skills overlap. I can't begin to imagine why it would matter whether or not he had played at the highest level.

But then, this is an opinion forum and everybody is entitled to their own.

[AndrewP6]

This from a teacher??


Coaching and playing are completely different activities with very limited skills overlap. I can't begin to imagine why it would matter whether or not he had played at the highest level.

But then, this is an opinion forum and everybody is entitled to their owm.

Yes, that from a teacher. In my work, I don't speak with any authority on topics I have little or no experience in. I don't coach athletics because I can't run (oh, and I hate it), I don't teach singing because I can't sing.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I have no doubt he's a great developer of people, but his tactical nous has been shown up more than once this year, and we are definitely the side getting 'sucker punched', by little moves by opposition coaches here and there, the most out of any team I've watched in 2012. We give up a lot of goals just by being a bit naive in our approach to the game, and I think the coach has a lot to do with that.

I agree here, look no further than the side selection, Wet, cold, small ground, hard inside team.....Let's play the tall and leave Smith home.

Ok we got jumped the first quarter, get the boys goal side of their player.

Shaw had a day out, status quo

Sounds like the StKilda game. I didn't see enough change on the day to suggest that he has a back up plan.

I don't like the development line ether when we rotate the young guys in and out. If we are developing these kids just say that they will get 4 consecutive games and let them play.

[azabob]

I agree here, look no further than the side selection, Wet, cold, small ground, hard inside team.....Let's play the tall and leave Smith home.



Sydney played just as tall as us, if not more so.

Team selection did not lose us this game.

[LongWait]

I can't believe that some on here, who no doubt have never had a conversation with McCartney about anything at all, much less about game tactics, are willing to pot him for not being "canny" or tactically astute. And this after less than a dozen games as coach.

[SlimPickens]

Yes, that from a teacher. In my work, I don't speak with any authority on topics I have little or no experience in. I don't coach athletics because I can't run (oh, and I hate it), I don't teach singing because I can't sing.

Just to clarify, are you suggesting that McCartney can't coach with authority because he has never played at AFL level?

Fairly simplistic view, if that's the case.

[LostDoggy]

Just to clarify, are you suggesting that McCartney can't coach with authority because he has never played at AFL level?

Fairly simplistic view, if that's the case.

The suggestion is teachers know everything.

For the thousandth time coaching isn't playing.

[SlimPickens]

The suggestion is teachers know everything.

For the thousandth time coaching isn't playing.

Completely agree, can’t fathom how people can suggest that because he hasn't played at the highest level doesn't mean he has the opportunity to be a successful coach and to suggest he can't speak with authority is just ludicrous.

[LostDoggy]

I can't believe that some on here, who no doubt have never had a conversation with McCartney about anything at all, much less about game tactics, are willing to pot him for not being "canny" or tactically astute. And this after less than a dozen games as coach.

Why are you being so sensitive on Macca's behalf? I'm sure he hears far harsher criticism on a daily basis.

For the record, no one is 'potting' anyone. I've voiced an opinion, backed it up, and also openly admitted that I may be well wrong (and no one would be happier than me if I was -- I've openly admitted to making wrong calls in the past on various players and been happy about it). I've also said that tactics are not the 'be all and end all' in football. In other words, a balanced opinion, I believe.

If you are distressed by balanced opinions perhaps an open forum is not a place you should frequent.

ps. One should also not make assumptions about who has or has not had conversations with Macca about anything.

[LongWait]

Why are you being so sensitive on Macca's behalf? I'm sure he hears far harsher criticism on a daily basis.

I'm not being sensitive on Macca's behalf. I was critical on this forum about the lack of progress by the coaching staff in quickly teaching positioning at stoppages and around the ground. You, on the other hand, questioned the man's intelligence, which goes beyond a judgement about performance.

Consider this: if a colleague criticises your performance in some aspect of your work ,you might take it somewhat personally but it usually is not a reflection on you as a person. When someone questions your intelligence or your acuity, it is hard not to take this very personally and to get upset or offended.

Maybe you meant to criticise the coaches' tactics, or what you perceive as his slowness to respond to the tactical ploys of opposition coaches? If so, the person receiving the criticism has some room to offer explanations, or to take the criticism on board. By questioning the "canniness" of the coach you are talking about him as a person and not just his performance. I bet it is not the type of thing you would say to Macca in person. Why? Because it is personal and offensive.

[Ghost Dog]

I like Bmac as a person. Respect how he treats people. But I'm really concerned about our losses to St Kilda and then Sydney. Ok, fair enough, MAYBE the Swans loss was a Darwin hangover, as others have suggested. However, one can't escape the fact that we were just awful against the Swans. Pitiful. You have to relate that to coaching errors. He is going to make errors as he is a new coach. It's totally different from being an assistant. But he will learn, and while not shying away from criticising his decisions, I wait eagerly to see if the things he says transfer to the next game.

[LostDoggy]

Maybe you meant to criticise the coaches' tactics, or what you perceive as his slowness to respond to the tactical ploys of opposition coaches? If so, the person receiving the criticism has some room to offer explanations, or to take the criticism on board. By questioning the "canniness" of the coach you are talking about him as a person and not just his performance. I bet it is not the type of thing you would say to Macca in person. Why? Because it is personal and offensive.

If you find 'lack of canniness' offensive, I apologise. I thought it was a relatively harmless off-hand comment, and certainly didn't mean it in a personal/offensive manner (as I meant it purely from a tactical perspective -- I was quite clear that I believe that he has great strengths as well), but I know that everyone has different standards in terms of language usage and it's easy for different people to react to different words differently, especially with a relatively 'old school' word like 'canny'.

Thanks for explaining it as well as you have, and again, if I caused offence, I apologise.

[LostDoggy]

I remain baffled though by talk about lacking mid-sized forwards both by McCartney and on this thread. Didn't we play THREE of them on the weekend - Gia, Higgins and Dickson? And couldn't your argue we played FIVE (add Veszpremi and Murphy who also went down there to the list). And didn't a SIXTH (Skinner) travel? And yet another - Sherman - get dropped?

This.

I immediately thought of Dickson, Murph and Vez when I heard that comment.

[LostDoggy]

I can't believe that some on here, who no doubt have never had a conversation with McCartney about anything at all, much less about game tactics, are willing to pot him for not being "canny" or tactically astute. And this after less than a dozen games as coach.

Some on here really know their stuff, and I think their opinions and subsequent respect for those opinions reflects that knowledge, but for every well balanced and well thought out argument there's a nitwit raving on that we should sack the coach after a few games and play every single out-of-form player off the half back flank.

[Sockeye Salmon]

This.

I immediately thought of Dickson, Murph and Vez when I heard that comment.

Isn't Grant a mid-sized forward who can mark, crumb and kick goals?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Isn't Grant a mid-sized forward who can mark, crumb and kick goals?

He's the one I thought of first, along with Higgins and co.

[azabob]

I like Bmac as a person. Respect how he treats people. But I'm really concerned about our losses to St Kilda and then Sydney. Ok, fair enough, MAYBE the Swans loss was a Darwin hangover, as others have suggested. However, one can't escape the fact that we were just awful against the Swans. Pitiful. You have to relate that to coaching errors. He is going to make errors as he is a new coach. It's totally different from being an assistant. But he will learn, and while not shying away from criticising his decisions, I wait eagerly to see if the things he says transfer to the next game.

As a club we had 2-3 of theses types of loses under Eade each year also. Sometimes the coach can only do so much.

[azabob]

I remain baffled though by talk about lacking mid-sized forwards both by McCartney and on this thread. Didn't we play THREE of them on the weekend - Gia, Higgins and Dickson? And couldn't your argue we played FIVE (add Veszpremi and Murphy who also went down there to the list). And didn't a SIXTH (Skinner) travel? And yet another - Sherman - get dropped?

??


This.

I immediately thought of Dickson, Murph and Vez when I heard that comment.

All those players listed have not been anywhere near consistent as a goal kicking mid size forward in 2012, either due to playing in the back half (Murphy, Vez), or injured or struggling (see rest).

I'm thinking it is a case of Rockets theory on big men - Quality not QTY.

[ledge]

All those players listed have not been anywhere near consistent as a goal kicking mid size forward in 2012, either due to playing in the back half (Murphy, Vez), or injured or struggling (see rest).

I'm thinking it is a case of Rockets theory on big men - Quality not QTY.

I tend to think it was more the delivery into the forward line that wasnt helping the first few games, it seemed to be improving until the Sydney game. 2 steps forward one step back maybe?

[Mantis]

I tend to think it was more the delivery into the forward line that wasnt helping the first few games, it seemed to be improving until the Sydney game. 2 steps forward one step back maybe?

More like one step foward, 3 steps back.

The confidence of all involved would have taken a severe hammering after a loss like that, and probably has a few wondering to if we are heading down the right path...

[LongWait]

If you find 'lack of canniness' offensive, I apologise. I thought it was a relatively harmless off-hand comment, and certainly didn't mean it in a personal/offensive manner (as I meant it purely from a tactical perspective -- I was quite clear that I believe that he has great strengths as well), but I know that everyone has different standards in terms of language usage and it's easy for different people to react to different words differently, especially with a relatively 'old school' word like 'canny'.

Thanks for explaining it as well as you have, and again, if I caused offence, I apologise.

I was a bit too strident in tackling you on this - playing the man, albeit without meaning to, is something we all do from time to time and I'm probably guilty as well.

Thanks for being a decent bloke about it.

[jeemak]

All those players listed have not been anywhere near consistent as a goal kicking mid size forward in 2012, either due to playing in the back half (Murphy, Vez), or injured or struggling (see rest).

I'm thinking it is a case of Rockets theory on big men - Quality not QTY.

Yep.

Who out of Veszpremi, Higgins, Gia, Murphy, Grant and Sherman inspires confidence on a long term basis to be a weekly contributor up forward?

In a side with good delivery, I'm confident Veszpremi, Grant and Higgins can be multiple goal kickers (that is, 1,5-2 per game) on a weekly basis, though I really think once some space opens up in the midfield we're likely to see Higgins play more through there anyway, while Veszpremi is likely to play as a utility throughout his career.

Once Gia goes we'll be screaming for a quality replacement, and I think we'll find out fairly quickly just how valuable a player he was once he's gone.

[LostDoggy]

Yep.

Who out of Veszpremi, Higgins, Gia, Murphy, Grant and Sherman inspires confidence on a long term basis to be a weekly contributor up forward?

In a side with good delivery, I'm confident Veszpremi, Grant and Higgins can be multiple goal kickers (that is, 1,5-2 per game) on a weekly basis, though I really think once some space opens up in the midfield we're likely to see Higgins play more through there anyway, while Veszpremi is likely to play as a utility throughout his career.

Once Gia goes we'll be screaming for a quality replacement, and I think we'll find out fairly quickly just how valuable a player he was once he's gone.

Can't see Missy having the pace (or frankly the fortitude) to hold down an effective midfield slot. As much as BMac talks him up I just don't see any upside.

Gia's unfortunately a ghost already and the proof of your words is what we are seeing in our forward 50. We need to let Dahlhaus be a small forward again for awhile to get some crumbing goals happening. Cordy's contesting well but in pulling Dahl up the ground, and with neither Missy nor Gia having pace, I rekon we are missing 1-2 goals a game which we desperately require. It's not a panacea but it would give us back 6-12 points a game perhaps?

[jeemak]

A part of me thinks Higgins is being played where he is right now because we haven't got anyone else for the time being, and also because we've got certain spots in our midfield occupied by players that can not and should not be dropped but can't play anywhere else.

I'm not convinced his pace or lack thereof will be too much of a concern, though he needs to demonstrate he has the intensity, the durability and stamina to contribute as the game wears on. His ability to take a mark and use the ball would be beneficial to us IMO, and he would add some diversity to a midfield that will be filled with players who are a little similar for my liking (Smith, Liberatore, Wallis, Boyd).

I think you're right with your comments on Gia, in a side that doesn't deliver well he's going to find it very hard to be effective. Moving Dahl deep will help Gia as well, at the moment his oponent doesn't have much to worry about to keep him out of the game once the ball hits the deck.

[AndrewP6]

Just to clarify, are you suggesting that McCartney can't coach with authority because he has never played at AFL level?

Fairly simplistic view, if that's the case.

Might be, time will tell. If he can get us further than the PF's we recently played, all well and good.

[SonofScray]

Higgins plays his best and most valuable footy as a forward. The work he does loose across half back could be done better by, for longer and more cheaply, at a guess, by a Wood, Howard, Tutt etc than by him.

We need him to get the ball a dozen times, kick straight and get scores on the board. Like what Hudson, Garlick, Robbins, and Smith have been able to do in recent years.

[Greystache]

This.

I immediately thought of Dickson, Murph and Vez when I heard that comment.

Murphy is the tallest of those 3 at 186cm, and none of them have a great deal of pace (Murphy again probably the quickest). I consider a mid-sized forward a 190ish cm player who can take a strong mark but is still quick enough to play defensive. Basically a Jack Darling, or who I believe he was specifically referring to Stuart Crameri. Crameri was a mature rookie pick, so it's not unrealistic to think we could unearth a similar player without having to invest a 1st round pick.

Grant fits the job description to a degree, but his lack of body strength and consistency of effort means he tends to play more like a flashy small crumbing forward.

Gia and Higgins, and so far to a lesser degree Dickson, play like very short key forwards. If they don't take the mark they're out of the contest.

[Ghost Dog]

Murphy is the tallest of those 3 at 186cm, and none of them have a great deal of pace (Murphy again probably the quickest). I consider a mid-sized forward a 190ish cm player who can take a strong mark but is still quick enough to play defensive. Basically a Jack Darling, or who I believe he was specifically referring to Stuart Crameri. Crameri was a mature rookie pick, so it's not unrealistic to think we could unearth a similar player without having to invest a 1st round pick.

Grant fits the job description to a degree, but his lack of body strength and consistency of effort means he tends to play more like a flashy small crumbing forward.

Gia and Higgins, and so far to a lesser degree Dickson, play like very short key forwards. If they don't take the mark they're out of the contest.

Gia is ok at getting free kicks against taller opponents and body positioning. not too sure about that one. Dickson can dive on a spill and take a snap. Plenty of strength to burst a pack. Wondering if Shaun is injured. Just looks a bit slow.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Gia is ok at getting free kicks against taller opponents and body positioning. not too sure about that one. Dickson can dive on a spill and take a snap. Plenty of strength to burst a pack. Wondering if Shaun is injured. Just looks a bit slow.

If you are relying on free kicks to gain possession of the ball, you're in big trouble.

Gia is very, very footy smart and so he can still impact games of football sporadically (Eg. v Collingwood) but his mobility has decreased significantly and as we know, he's always been poor defensively. It will be interesting to see how he can continue to contribute next year -- I really do think giving him a 2 year contract was a mistake.

Dickson needs to improve his endurance so that he can give repeat efforts because at the moment, he really does play like a small key forward. I have faith in Dickson though, I think he can be a player. He's clean with the ball and attacks contests, but he just cannot do this on a regular basis or 'work over' his opponent because he doesn't have the fitness base yet.

Higgins has looked incredibly slow for 3 years -- nothing to do with injury. I still don't think his fitness is where it needs to be, either. Again, he is reasonably smart, so he's been able to kick a few goals on the back of that, but realistically that isn't enough. He is caught playing from behind, can't apply defensive pressure when the opposition spread and I don't think he attacks aerial contests as hard as he could at times. He was a fantastic overhead mark when he first came to the club, but he struggles with that now.

Might be worthwhile isolating Higgins deep as a FF for the remainder of the year. Though, with Cordy & co in their development phases, that can't/won't happen. For mine, I just don't think Higgins can push up the field. He gets lost in traffic a bit, and is just too slow -- maybe slower than Cross.

As a side note, I really wish we went after Saad. I was disappointed when St. Kilda snapped him up, I felt he was the type of player we really need and we could have got him cheap.

[Greystache]

Dickson needs to improve his endurance so that he can give repeat efforts because at the moment, he really does play like a small key forward. I have faith in Dickson though, I think he can be a player. He's clean with the ball and attacks contests, but he just cannot do this on a regular basis or 'work over' his opponent because he doesn't have the fitness base yet.

I agree, I think he'll get there and has been a good pick up. I'm not sure if it's been noticed, but he's lost a considerable amount of weight since he was drafted, I think with another preseason his fitness base will be adequate


Higgins has looked incredibly slow for 3 years -- nothing to do with injury. I still don't think his fitness is where it needs to be, either. Again, he is reasonably smart, so he's been able to kick a few goals on the back of that, but realistically that isn't enough. He is caught playing from behind, can't apply defensive pressure when the opposition spread and I don't think he attacks aerial contests as hard as he could at times. He was a fantastic overhead mark when he first came to the club, but he struggles with that now.

When he first arrived at the club he had 3 elite attributes, he was a deadly kick for goal both on the run and as a set shot, he was ruthless at the contest, and he was a very strong overhead mark for his size. These days those 3 areas are probably his weakest areas, I don't know how much injuries have played their part, but he appears from the outside to think AFL football requires little more than an occasional bit of smarts. I have real doubts over his future in the game.


Might be worthwhile isolating Higgins deep as a FF for the remainder of the year. Though, with Cordy & co in their development phases, that can't/won't happen. For mine, I just don't think Higgins can push up the field. He gets lost in traffic a bit, and is just too slow -- maybe slower than Cross.

No one is slower than Cross :D, but he's having his most effective season in years IMO.


As a side note, I really wish we went after Saad. I was disappointed when St. Kilda snapped him up, I felt he was the type of player we really need and we could have got him cheap.

I said at the time how much I wanted to chase Saad, and how disappointed I was we he went to St Kilda for next to nothing.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

When he first arrived at the club he had 3 elite attributes, he was a deadly kick for goal both on the run and as a set shot, he was ruthless at the contest, and he was a very strong overhead mark for his size. These days those 3 areas are probably his weakest areas, I don't know how much injuries have played their part, but he appears from the outside to think AFL football requires little more than an occasional bit of smarts. I have real doubts over his future in the game.

No one is slower than Cross :D, but he's having his most effective season in years IMO.



This is what I don't understand; why has Higgins' skill level dropped off, and why has his overhead marking practically vanished? Granted -- his disposal seems to be better this year, but I remember him taking quite a few good grabs from his debut year up until 2009. He's rarely been able to take an overhead mark since. It was one of his great traits; he could mark the ball very well, but he was also a smart crumber that ran to the right positions.

He's just a polar opposite of the player he was a few years ago. I know injuries/confidence took their toll, but I find it astounding nonetheless. He was a classy, smooth mover -- now you're unsure what he's going to deliver.

I agree with you on Cross. Having a good season, has his role changed slightly? And just on that comparison, I think what compounds Higgins' lack of pace is the fact that he takes too long to make a decision with the ball in hand. That, and he doesn't naturally accelerate straight off the mark anymore. He took a mark v Sydney in the first quarter where his opponent slipped over, but then casually jogged off the mark as if he had 50 meters of space. By this stage his opponent had found his feet and then tackled him to dispose us of the ball.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

As did St.Kilda, who also sat off us at the clearances and then thumped us when we turned it over.

So far we have beaten the 3 worst teams in the competition and one which is a bit of a basket case. And while being competitive and threatening at times in the rest we haven't been sharp enough to beat teams who are slightly better than us.

The rest of the season has a number of 50:50 games (including the next 2), a number that look like certain losses, but not too many where we look certain winners so it's going to be interesting to see how we finish the season off.

As with comments that Lantern has posted our in game coaching has been indifferent, I guess Macca is still probably coming to grips with being the 'ship steerer' on game day, but he needs to find his feet sooner rather than later... That fact that he has very little experience in the box to help him wouldn't make it any easier.
The lack of experience in the box, is a very valid point but we also need to give credit for the way we were able to challenge both last year's Grand Finalists, Geelong and Collingwood, with an inferior forward line which were brave efforts. The experiment of playing ruckman in Roughead and Cordy as forwards clearly hasn't worked. Jones similarly has been a big disappointment. I would give up on both Cordy and Jones for the moment and look at other key forward options. Roughead is clearly a budding ruckman and simply needs to be given added time in the ruck. I think the time is right to move Murphy back into our attack where apart from Dahlhaus we have sadly lacked any class. Higgins is too slow to keep playing as a forward and repeatedly plays from behind.
I would pump for Tom Hill at full forward. We really have nothing to lose but to look at other options. It might just work.

[LostDoggy]

I was a bit too strident in tackling you on this - playing the man, albeit without meaning to, is something we all do from time to time and I'm probably guilty as well.

Thanks for being a decent bloke about it.

No worries at all mate. :)

[LostDoggy]

The lack of experience in the box, is a very valid point but we also need to give credit for the way we were able to challenge both last year's Grand Finalists, Geelong and Collingwood, with an inferior forward line which were brave efforts. The experiment of playing ruckman in Roughead and Cordy as forwards clearly hasn't worked. Jones similarly has been a big disappointment. I would give up on both Cordy and Jones for the moment and look at other key forward options. Roughead is clearly a budding ruckman and simply needs to be given added time in the ruck. I think the time is right to move Murphy back into our attack where apart from Dahlhaus we have sadly lacked any class. Higgins is too slow to keep playing as a forward and repeatedly plays from behind.
I would pump for Tom Hill at full forward. We really have nothing to lose but to look at other options. It might just work.

Just on the bolded bit, I don't necessarily disagree, but I do worry about giving up too quickly on young talls. Some of these kids haven't been given a decent shot at a role -- they've been thrown up and back and all around, then dropped, then drop out with a little niggle here and there. Cordy and Roughead have also not had a decent run without injuries, so now that they are injury free I do worry about dropping them too often.

Things a young player need more than anything is continuity and support from older teammates. I suggest that we are sorely lacking in the latter, and if we keep dropping them we risk also taking the former away.

[jeemak]

The lack of experience in the box, is a very valid point but we also need to give credit for the way we were able to challenge both last year's Grand Finalists, Geelong and Collingwood, with an inferior forward line which were brave efforts. The experiment of playing ruckman in Roughead and Cordy as forwards clearly hasn't worked. Jones similarly has been a big disappointment. I would give up on both Cordy and Jones for the moment and look at other key forward options. Roughead is clearly a budding ruckman and simply needs to be given added time in the ruck. I think the time is right to move Murphy back into our attack where apart from Dahlhaus we have sadly lacked any class. Higgins is too slow to keep playing as a forward and repeatedly plays from behind.
I would pump for Tom Hill at full forward. We really have nothing to lose but to look at other options. It might just work.

I really don't see why we'd take the short road and give up on any of Cordy, Roughead (as a forwad/second ruck) or Jones.

I posted early on this year that our forward line needs to be seen as a vehicle to future improvement, and to allow that improvement to bare fruit we need to let the guys you've mentioned to get games under their belt. Adding Murphy right now will probably increase our ability to score a couple more goals a game, though realistically it's only going to hurt him physically and stifle our future development in that area.

Our forward line will develop slowly, though if we want to speed up the process we need to fix our ball movement from defense through the midfield. I'm actually surprised Higgins, Giansiracusa along with Dahl and the talls mentioned above have been able to score at all with the service they've been given. For mine, the screaming defficiency in our side right now is the lack of clean ball generated from the large amounts of contested possessions we're recording each game.

If we cleaned that up, and managed to lessen the ease of clean possession our opposition benefit from as a result of our innability to spread and contest the second or third ball from each contested situation, our backline would be under significantly less pressure and they'd be able to move the ball forward with ease.

I understand that Higgins and Gia are struggling right now, though they're currently playing the hardest role to play in the AFL. They don't have a consistently peforming key forward to provide support to, or receive support from, and the delivery coming in is third rate, at best.

It doesn't matter who we put up forward right now, they're going to struggle no matter what. I personally think the coaching staff have our forward mix right considering the personnel we have, and the only saving grace from this year will be the fact the young guys, as well as Higgins and Dickson will have to learn how to score goals under trying circumstances.

[Ghost Dog]

Can't see Missy having the pace (or frankly the fortitude) to hold down an effective midfield slot. As much as BMac talks him up I just don't see any upside.

Gia's unfortunately a ghost already and the proof of your words is what we are seeing in our forward 50. We need to let Dahlhaus be a small forward again for awhile to get some crumbing goals happening. Cordy's contesting well but in pulling Dahl up the ground, and with neither Missy nor Gia having pace, I rekon we are missing 1-2 goals a game which we desperately require. It's not a panacea but it would give us back 6-12 points a game perhaps?

Problem with Higgo and Gia is just when you gnash your teeth, they do something amazing and you feel bad for potting them!

[Mofra]

Our forward line will develop slowly, though if we want to speed up the process we need to fix our ball movement from defense through the midfield. I'm actually surprised Higgins, Giansiracusa along with Dahl and the talls mentioned above have been able to score at all with the service they've been given. For mine, the screaming defficiency in our side right now is the lack of clean ball generated from the large amounts of contested possessions we're recording each game.
That's a good point - but because of that I think a few posters have been lookign for effort more than result. For mine, Cordy has been putting in a masive amount of effort for a kid with only a handful of games to his name - I've been impressed with his ability to compete in the air and pressure teh oppositoion when the ball hits the deck.

It's also the difference IMO between Higgins & Gia at the moment - Missy seems to be at least getting to contests, Gia hasn't and some of his goals have been merely smart positioning on the turnover, often because his opponent has been running hard to provide an option out of defence and he's been fortunate enopugh to gain seperation.


I understand that Higgins and Gia are struggling right now, though they're currently playing the hardest role to play in the AFL. They don't have a consistently peforming key forward to provide support to, or receive support from, and the delivery coming in is third rate, at best.
Delivery is poor but being a forward is alot about unrewarded running - spreading to create space, leading hard to at least provide an option when the midfield has possession under pressure. Gia must be carrying something because his running seems to have dropped off (and I don't want to be an outer-screamer type but the jog & point from a senior player shits me to tears). Dickson chases much harder and Cordy seems to run hard too. Jones was very good last year but has dropped off in this aspect in recent weeks.

[Hot_Doggies]

Whats hurting Higgin's the most is he is the 'fastest' player on the forward line. Opposition teams can afford to play a quick defender on him, because they aren't required anywhere else.

Different story if we had 2 nippy smalls in the pockets and Grant/Murphy on the opposite flank.

[DragzLS1]

Everybody is dissapointed in Higgens and say he has lost al his upside.

I dont know about anybody else but i do not see any issues with his kicking for goal either on the run or from a set shot. TBH I am most confortable seeing the ball in higgens hands infront of goal just as I am with Gia and Dickson. Higgens is not very quick as we all know but is smart infront of goal and think we need to give him time playing forward (not mid).

Dickson on the other hand is quicker then what everybody else is making him out to be. I has seen him chase a number of opponents down. Think after another pre season he will be alot better for us aswell. Either way am very happy with this pick up! :)

Gia maybe getting too old but is important in out forward structure this year. Think having Dickson and Higgens in the forward line when Gia retired may be a better option. Having all 3 though is hurting us atm.

[always right]

Is the problem here that the coaches appear to be trying to find a formula for winning games this year rather than a formula for building for future success?

Moving Murphy forward might give us more pace around goal but surely this is a short term plan. Aren't we better off deciding what we see as the potential structure for next year and invest time in that structure even if it means losing games?

If we think Jones and Cordy are our best bet at this stage.....play them every week up forward. If we want to get more pace into our forwardline in future, play the blokes who can provide that long term....Grant (what's happened to him?), Tutt (when fit), and Dahlhaus fit the bill. Only play one of Gia or Higgins up forward.

[always right]

Everybody is dissapointed in Higgens and say he has lost al his upside.

I dont know about anybody else but i do not see any issues with his kicking for goal either on the run or from a set shot. TBH I am most confortable seeing the ball in higgens hands infront of goal just as I am with Gia and Dickson. Higgens is not very quick as we all know but is smart infront of goal and think we need to give him time playing forward (not mid).


Agree...other than when he runs onto his left foot. Reckon he runs at around 30% efficency on his left. Set shot on his preferred side.....80% chance of nailing it.

[jeemak]

That's a good point - but because of that I think a few posters have been lookign for effort more than result. For mine, Cordy has been putting in a masive amount of effort for a kid with only a handful of games to his name - I've been impressed with his ability to compete in the air and pressure teh oppositoion when the ball hits the deck.

It's also the difference IMO between Higgins & Gia at the moment - Missy seems to be at least getting to contests, Gia hasn't and some of his goals have been merely smart positioning on the turnover, often because his opponent has been running hard to provide an option out of defence and he's been fortunate enopugh to gain seperation.


Delivery is poor but being a forward is alot about unrewarded running - spreading to create space, leading hard to at least provide an option when the midfield has possession under pressure. Gia must be carrying something because his running seems to have dropped off (and I don't want to be an outer-screamer type but the jog & point from a senior player shits me to tears). Dickson chases much harder and Cordy seems to run hard too. Jones was very good last year but has dropped off in this aspect in recent weeks.

Giansiracusa looks like he's struggling through his core and groin/upper legs. In a sense I hope his attitude is still right and it's his body letting him down, as having been a believer that reality hasn't met perception in the past when his defensive output has been questioned, I can't bring myself to defend it currently.

Cordy's effort across the board has been excellent, and I'm now thinking that my hopes for him becoming an outstanding player have some basis. I think Dickson needs to get a lot fitter, though I can tell he's trying to create and defend after a very sluggish start in that area.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Is the problem here that the coaches appear to be trying to find a formula for winning games this year rather than a formula for building for future success?

Moving Murphy forward might give us more pace around goal but surely this is a short term plan. Aren't we better off deciding what we see as the potential structure for next year and invest time in that structure even if it means losing games?

If we think Jones and Cordy are our best bet at this stage.....play them every week up forward. If we want to get more pace into our forwardline in future, play the blokes who can provide that long term....Grant (what's happened to him?), Tutt (when fit), and Dahlhaus fit the bill. Only play one of Gia or Higgins up forward.
I agree that both Gia and Higgins shouldn't be on the same forward line. Comments by BMcC this week could see Higgins moved to defence with Murphy going forward. This makes more sense to me. I am still to be convinced that both Jones and Cordy is the answer to our key forward woes. You would hope that at some stage, Tom Hill, Panos or Redpath might emerge to be considered good enough to play forward.
Dickson shows all the signs of becoming a regular along with Dahlhaus. The concerns remain Grant, Sherman and Djeerkura who are yet to grasp the mettle by becoming permanent fixtures in attack.

[Ghost Dog]

Whats hurting Higgin's the most is he is the 'fastest' player on the forward line. Opposition teams can afford to play a quick defender on him, because they aren't required anywhere else.

Different story if we had 2 nippy smalls in the pockets and Grant/Murphy on the opposite flank.

Well said. It's really only taken a junior quick like Dahlhaus to spark a fire in the team. Not trying to take anything away from his ball skills, but his most damaging asset is his speed. The success of Luke is due in most part to a glaring deficiency we have in our team. Forward pressure. Our50 is like a sieve. And the kid is going to get burnt out if he doesn't get a bit of support.

[w3design]

To me the problem with the Twin sons of Different Mothers : Higgins and Gia, is we can not afford to have them both in the forward half at the same time. The next problem then becomes, where the hell do you put the other one? Neither has pace, neither could tackle some one's grandmother, and they both regularly go walk about mentally during the game, or at the very least resolutely refuse to chase.

Buggered if I know what the answer is there, but it sure ain't the status quo!!

Murph would be great back up forward, but we can't afford to remove him from a largely inexperienced back half till Morris and co return, and we find a real general for back there as Grant and Smith were in their latter years.
We must remain patient with the kids [ particularly the talls] and allow them time to develop. So I guess that means we have to learn to live with the pain for the balance of this season at the very least.

There is no point getting our knickers in a twist, and throwing the babies out with the dish water, but there needs to be changes made at season's end. Sadly that means some stalwarts may need to go, and having a strong sense of loyalty to our players, that is hard for me to say. But the reality is we need three things desperately: Kicking skill, pace, and kicking skill!

[jeemak]

Well said. It's really only taken a junior quick like Dahlhaus to spark a fire in the team. Not trying to take anything away from his ball skills, but his most damaging asset is his speed. The success of Luke is due in most part to a glaring deficiency we have in our team. Forward pressure. Our50 is like a sieve. And the kid is going to get burnt out if he doesn't get a bit of support.

GD, do you think our forwards like Gia and Higgins, as well as our taller players would be as inneffective as they are defensively if the ball was delivered well?

When a team like Carlton is on song (they obviously have their issues right now), guys like Betts and Garlett look good as a result of their defensive pressure because they konw where to run and the delivery to the spots they run to are predictable to the whole team.

Our forward line leaks like a sieve because on one front we're not playing quick and defensive minded players there of course, though on the other we're slow to move the ball from defense and we service the forward line disgracefully when we finally decide to kick it forward.

We're so terrible and predictable when moving the ball forward that we give the oppositions' defense every chance of getting numbers back to enable them to clear the ball easily. Our forwards are double and tripple teamed as a result of this, and they're always outnumbered.

I think a few of our forwards need to look like they're trying harder, but really, they're pretty much screwed from the outset.

[Ghost Dog]

GD, do you think our forwards like Gia and Higgins, as well as our taller players would be as inneffective as they are defensively if the ball was delivered well?
.

Point taken JeeMak

As you say, the lack of a genuine Key forward, combined with some pretty unclean delivery has them trying to carry a pretty big load, on legs that no longer have that spring in their step. McCartney has shown a lot of respect to Shaun and Gia. Hope they can repay that faith as neither have been consistent and I'm not sure having both of them in our forward line is smart.

[Ghost Dog]

To me the problem with the Twin sons of Different Mothers : Higgins and Gia, is we can not afford to have them both in the forward half at the same time. The next problem then becomes, where the hell do you put the other one? Neither has pace, neither could tackle some one's grandmother, and they both regularly go walk about mentally during the game, or at the very least resolutely refuse to chase.

Buggered if I know what the answer is there, but it sure ain't the status quo!!

There is no point getting our knickers in a twist, and throwing the babies out with the dish water, but there needs to be changes made at season's end

Anyone up for throwing Gia down back? A good leader to have down there.
Just getting a bit bored with our forward line.

[GVGjr]

Anyone up for throwing Gia down back? A good leader to have down there.
Just getting a bit bored with our forward line.

He just doesn't have the leg speed for a defenders position

[Hotdog60]

Maybe we make Gia the stay at home full forward were his chase may not be as critical.

He'll either get a slower big full back he can lead on or he will drag one of their rebounder's deep.

[Ghost Dog]

He just doesn't have the leg speed for a defenders position

Right fair comment. The coaching staff have some tough decisions to make. Pace is a real issue.
If we can be outrun by Sydney and their small forwards so badly, younger teams like GWS will just play kick in the paddock to make it a foot race and run over the top of us.

[w3design]

Anyone up for throwing Gia down back? A good leader to have down there.
Just getting a bit bored with our forward line.

Who would you play him on? The first move by any opposition coach would be to put a Jetta, Rioli or Betts etc on him, which would amount to them getting a free rein.
The best option for mine might be to say to him, every time the opposition sends an extra man into the back line, you go and block him, prevent his getting into any space, or doing any interference.
If no spares, then go to the goal square and just sit. Force them to have at least one defender stuck down on the goal line at all times. Don't try to run about, except to lead into space, or crumb.

[Ghost Dog]

Who would you play him on? The first move by any opposition coach would be to put a Jetta, Rioli or Betts etc on him, which would amount to them getting a free rein.
The best option for mine might be to say to him, every time the opposition sends an extra man into the back line, you go and block him, prevent his getting into any space, or doing any interference.
If no spares, then go to the goal square and just sit. Force them to have at least one defender stuck down on the goal line at all times. Don't try to run about, except to lead into space, or crumb.

Sounds like a good option Paul.

[LostDoggy]

Gia, even at this pace, is still easily in the top 3 best mids we have at the club. Can win his own ball, can navigate traffic, impeccable disposal, can run all day. Lack of pace isn't such an issue playing on the edges of a pack. We could really use his quality ball use too.

If he wasn't such a great goalsneak Gia would have been one of the great mids of our modern era. A travesty he's been wasted up forward for years.

[GVGjr]

Gia, even at this pace, is still easily in the top 3 best mids we have at the club. Can win his own ball, can navigate traffic, impeccable disposal, can run all day. Lack of pace isn't such an issue playing on the edges of a pack. We could really use his quality ball use too.


Excellent points.

[Ghost Dog]

Gia, even at this pace, is still easily in the top 3 best mids we have at the club. Can win his own ball, can navigate traffic, impeccable disposal, can run all day. Lack of pace isn't such an issue playing on the edges of a pack. We could really use his quality ball use too.

If he wasn't such a great goalsneak Gia would have been one of the great mids of our modern era. A travesty he's been wasted up forward for years.

The best set shot in the team I reckon. Not sure of the above.

[Mofra]

Gia, even at this pace, is still easily in the top 3 best mids we have at the club. Can win his own ball, can navigate traffic, impeccable disposal, can run all day. Lack of pace isn't such an issue playing on the edges of a pack. We could really use his quality ball use too.

If he wasn't such a great goalsneak Gia would have been one of the great mids of our modern era. A travesty he's been wasted up forward for years.
Bingo - the problem is with so many one-paced mids we've used the most versatile players out of position. Higgins played inside mid prior to being drafted too IIRC.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Bingo - the problem is with so many one-paced mids we've used the most versatile players out of position. Higgins played inside mid prior to being drafted too IIRC.

Minson was mostly played out of position before this year, too.

[Hotdog60]

Minson was mostly played out of position before this year, too.

Panos at the moment as well, although he hasn't taken his step in the big league yet.

[bornadog]

Panos at the moment as well, although he hasn't taken his step in the big league yet.

There is a deliberate strategy with Panos in playing him in the backline to hone his defensive skills. I don't mind that and will only help his development in the future.

[azabob]

There is a deliberate strategy with Panos in playing him in the backline to hone his defensive skills. I don't mind that and will only help his development in the future.

I not sure we have long term plans for Panos.

[LostDoggy]

The best set shot in the team I reckon. Not sure of the above.

Gia is consistently in top 2 or 3 in all time trials along with Boydy and Cross, and has been up there for a decade. Incredibly underrated tank.

[Ghost Dog]

Gia is consistently in top 2 or 3 in all time trials along with Boydy and Cross, and has been up there for a decade. Incredibly underrated tank.

Also, I really hope he can be helped out by some better inside 50 delivery.

[LostDoggy]

Also, I really hope he can be helped out by some better inside 50 delivery.

I suggested him playing as a mid as I think he would improve our inside 50 deliveries no end. He didn't lead the league for 4 years in assists for no reason.

When he filled in for Boydy in the centre bounce set up last year he had his best three games of the year, and was BOG for 2 of them. With Gia delivering the ball, Jones, Cordy et al will find it a lot easier up forward.

[Ghost Dog]

I suggested him playing as a mid as I think he would improve our inside 50 deliveries no end. He didn't lead the league for 4 years in assists for no reason.

When he filled in for Boydy in the centre bounce set up last year he had his best three games of the year, and was BOG for 2 of them. With Gia delivering the ball, Jones, Cordy et al will find it a lot easier up forward.

Good call and IIRC you are not the first to make that call. But replacing who?

[LostDoggy]

Good call and IIRC you are not the first to make that call. But replacing who?

Dahlhaus. Move him back to the forwardline.

[Mofra]

Dahlhaus. Move him back to the forwardline.
Cross has been spending more time outside of the centre too - I like the idea of Gia spending more time in the centre. Right now Higgins is performing better in the slowish/nice finisher/smart mid-forward role that we seem to have invented.

[stefoid]

Dahlhaus. Move him back to the forwardline.

Ultimately we need Dalhaus firing in the midfield and the faster he devlops there, the better.

I think moving him to the forward line might be marginally better for the team this year, but ultimately a negative.

This is a devlopment year - lets get players developing in the spots where we want them to play long term.

And if that costs us a game or two, resulting in better draft picks, then we'll just have to live with that :D

[LostDoggy]

Ultimately we need Dalhaus firing in the midfield and the faster he devlops there, the better.


Interesting view -- I think Dahl does well pinch-hitting through the middle but I don't see him as a long-term mid. His speed, tackling and goalsense tell me that he's best utilised primarily in the forwardline, but that's just my opinion.

[Ozza]

I agree - I think Dahlhaus is at his best in the forward line. When he's not there we miss his pressure and his ability to create something out of half chances.

[LostDoggy]

Ultimately we need Dalhaus firing in the midfield and the faster he devlops there, the better.

I think moving him to the forward line might be marginally better for the team this year, but ultimately a negative.

This is a devlopment year - lets get players developing in the spots where we want them to play long term.

And if that costs us a game or two, resulting in better draft picks, then we'll just have to live with that :D

But if he's better suited to the forward line, play him there. As soon as a player shows anything they're pushed into the midfield, perhaps he just needs to stay where he is and nail it.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Interesting view -- I think Dahl does well pinch-hitting through the middle but I don't see him as a long-term mid. His speed, tackling and goalsense tell me that he's best utilised primarily in the forwardline, but that's just my opinion.

I agree.

Capable of quick bursts in the midfield, but most effective up forward.

Hard to tell if we are developing him as a midfielder because that's where we want to play him long term, or if we are trying to compensate for a severe lack of pace in our current midfield stocks. I get the impression it's the former, but like you Lantern, I think his best position is/will be as a forward.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Cross has been spending more time outside of the centre too - I like the idea of Gia spending more time in the centre. Right now Higgins is performing better in the slowish/nice finisher/smart mid-forward role that we seem to have invented.

Cross has done his best work this year dropping back in defence. Gia has never done well in the midfield. Higgins looks better suited down back as his lack of pace still remains a problem in attack. Dahlhaus has been our best forward but is beginning to get tagged at half forward.
Could become an ideal crumbing forward pocket in the mould of a Betts or Milne type.

[jeemak]

Ultimately we need Dalhaus firing in the midfield and the faster he devlops there, the better.

I think moving him to the forward line might be marginally better for the team this year, but ultimately a negative.

This is a devlopment year - lets get players developing in the spots where we want them to play long term.

And if that costs us a game or two, resulting in better draft picks, then we'll just have to live with that :D

I see what you mean, and I agree that Dahl will spend a fair amount of time in the midfield throughout his career.

For mine, midfield performance is a lot more dependant on building up a nice mix of burst and aerobic fitness, as well as strength over a few pre-seasons and throughout matches. On the other hand, I think becoming an effective small forward is likely to learned predominantly through being coached within matches, and repetition under match conditions.

I think it's important that Dahl learns how to play as a forward for the short term, as his particular forward position is a bloody difficult one to master, and quality small forwards with his pace and tenacity are hard to find.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Cross has done his best work this year dropping back in defence. Gia has never done well in the midfield. Higgins looks better suited down back as his lack of pace still remains a problem in attack. Dahlhaus has been our best forward but is beginning to get tagged at half forward.
Could become an ideal crumbing forward pocket in the mould of a Betts or Milne type.

Gia has almost always done well in the midfield

[Maddog37]

I would prefer Dahl play the Milne role predominantly with a run in the midfield to break tags. Perhaps the Cyril Rioli model is what I am suggesting now that I think of it.

[stefoid]

Dal has a rare ability to create play and break lines, we should use that all over the ground, not just the front half.

While he might do OK as a goal sneak I dont see that his kicking skills and goal sense is as good as true 'goal sneak'. He dosnt seem to have that innate ability to snap a goal from anywhere. Nor is he great set shot or a good mark that I have noticed. His skill lies in his ability to win and distribute the ball creatively more so than his ability to kick goals himself, I think.

The guy is already being tagged in his second year (first year as a mid) -- he must be doing something right.

[LostDoggy]

Gia has almost always done well in the midfield

This. Gia has almost always done elite well in midfield. Both a qualitative AND quantitative (stats) assessment of this will quite easily settle the argument. I'm surprised and intrigued at how certain impressions form about certain players and their capabilities.

[Cyberdoggie]

Regardless i think it's the wrong approach to be trying to stack our midfield with old and slow guys like Boyd, Cross and Gia on a full time basis.

These guys have got a couple of years left in them and it's imperative that Wallis, Libba, Dahlhaus, and other potentials learn their craft along side them while they are still there.

Boyd is still a first class midfielder and we also have Griffen there so i don't see the need for Cross and Gia, whom i'm sure we would all agree are not as good as the previous too in the middle.

Sure if those guys were missing from the side then some experience would be required in that position, and it will probably fall to those 2 to fill it.

[LostDoggy]

Moving Gia isn't to fix the midfield, it's to fix the forwardline. If you're worried about slow, old dudes, it's FAR worse having them in the forwardline these days than in the middle. Gia's lack of pace would not be as much of a liability in the middle.

Again, I've said that I don't see Dahlhaus (from your list Cyberdoggie) as a long-time mid, so it's not a contradiction to suggest just swapping them.

I would also question the Gia/Boydy comparison. I don't think we've seen Gia in the middle enough to make an absolute case either way, but we've seen enough to know that Gia generally plays a 30+ possession game when played in the middle, and his disposals are highly damaging and effective (again, this guy led the club and the comp in assists for a long, long time). Boydy has the capacity for 30-40+ possession games at a lower effectiveness. I say the case is line-ball.

[jeemak]

The point Boyd has is durability. I know Gia hasn't missed a lot of games, but that might not have been the case if played midfield his entire career.

Agree that he'd make a great ball user and contributor, and it's a credit to him he's been able to put together a very solid career on the back of playing a position not necessarily suited to him.

[Sockeye Salmon]

The point Boyd has is durability. I know Gia hasn't missed a lot of games, but that might not have been the case if played midfield his entire career.

Agree that he'd make a great ball user and contributor, and it's a credit to him he's been able to put together a very solid career on the back of playing a position not necessarily suited to him.

I see Gia in the same light as Minson up to this year. Playing a position that's best for the team but not necessarily best for him.

[LongWait]

The guy who I think might do a bit of damage if played as a small forward is Picken. Fierce attack on the footy, great defensive skills, a very good 50 meter kick and an exceptional ability to snap a goal off balance and under pressure. Can find the ball as well. Unfortunately we also need him elsewhere and playing another role. Would seriously love to see Liam given a month up forward to see how he goes.

[Mantis]

I see Gia in the same light as Minson up to this year. Playing a position that's best for the team but not necessarily best for him.

If Gia was that good in the midfield he would have forced his way in there.

Same as if Minson was better than Hudson he would have been our no.1 ruckman years ago.

[jeemak]

If Gia was that good in the midfield he would have forced his way in there.

Same as if Minson was better than Hudson he would have been our no.1 ruckman years ago.

That's not really true. He's been our best option as a small to mid-sized goal kicker, so due to needs he's been played there.

We also have had midfielders that can't play anywhere else, but ultimately deserve a game.

[Sockeye Salmon]

If Gia was that good in the midfield he would have forced his way in there.

Same as if Minson was better than Hudson he would have been our no.1 ruckman years ago.

I don't agree at all.

I think Hudson and Minson were both 7/10 as ruckmen but Hudson was a 2/10 as a forward and Minson was a 4/10. We were better off playing Minson forward because Hudson couldn't, but Minson's reputation suffered for it.

Equally, Gia is played forward because no-one else can but we have plenty of high endurance ball winners who can play in the middle.

[GVGjr]

I don't agree at all.

I think Hudson and Minson were both 7/10 as ruckmen but Hudson was a 2/10 as a forward and Minson was a 4/10. We were better off playing Minson forward because Hudson couldn't, but Minson's reputation suffered for it.

Equally, Gia is played forward because no-one else can but we have plenty of high endurance ball winners who can play in the middle.

Agreed. Minson was certainly seen as the better option of the two up forward. I saw a number of training sessions where Minson was working on his contested marking as a forward. Never saw the same work being done with Hudson.

Regarding Giansiracusa, he's better suited to the forward line duties now but a couple of seasons back it was more around the fact that we needed him to spend more time there.

We did the same with Brad Johnson who was moved forward well before his work around the midfield diminished.

[w3design]

If Gia was that good in the midfield he would have forced his way in there.

Same as if Minson was better than Hudson he would have been our no.1 ruckman years ago.

Sorry Mantis, have to disagree completely. In my opinion the reason Minson was second to Huddo had more to do with interpersonal relations with the coach. To me he was always both a better, and more adaptable, and less predictable ruck than Huddo.
Don't get me wrong, I liked The Beard, but you [ and the opposition] always knew if Huddo got his hand to the ball it would go back down into the scrum at his feet. Minno has always been a lot less predictable. He can also put it straight down, but he equally can flick it out to the edge of the pack, or even spike it volleyball style to half forward. He is much less predictable to the opposition.

[Mantis]

Sorry Mantis, have to disagree completely. In my opinion the reason Minson was second to Huddo had more to do with interpersonal relations with the coach. To me he was always both a better, and more adaptable, and less predictable ruck than Huddo.

Don't get me wrong, I liked The Beard, but you [ and the opposition] always knew if Huddo got his hand to the ball it would go back down into the scrum at his feet. Minno has always been a lot less predictable. He can also put it straight down, but he equally can flick it out to the edge of the pack, or even spike it volleyball style to half forward. He is much less predictable to the opposition.

While I agree that Minson was a better 'tapper' of the ball, Huddo was so much better at many other parts of the game.

[Hotdog60]

Wasn't it the sub rule that ultimately did in our ruck combo.

[jeemak]

Wasn't it the sub rule that ultimately did in our ruck combo.

Or Rocket's perspective on how the substitute should be managed.

I personally thought Hudson was cooked last year and Minson should have been playing first ruck.

[Sockeye Salmon]

While I agree that Minson was a better 'tapper' of the ball, Huddo was so much better at many other parts of the game.

Hudson couldn't run or mark. All he could do was shepherd and scramble, both of which Minson can as well.



Or Rocket's perspective on how the substitute should be managed.

I personally thought Hudson was cooked last year and Minson should have been playing first ruck.

This.

[ReLoad]

Brendan is on afl.com.au with a video called "access all areas" a fantastic interview.

Seems Jarrod Grant needs a firecracker lit up his backside.

[jeemak]

Brendan is on afl.com.au with a video called "access all areas" a fantastic interview.

Seems Jarrod Grant needs a firecracker lit up his backside.

I thought it was an excellent interview. It's pretty clear Grant is in training right now, though I don't think McCartney was scathing of him, as he basically said the majority of our list need to improve their attitude towards training.

[FrediKanoute]

I thought it was an excellent interview. It's pretty clear Grant is in training right now, though I don't think McCartney was scathing of him, as he basically said the majority of our list need to improve their attitude towards training.

Agree. My reading of it is that Grant needs to work harder, but its not a bake. As with most things B-Mac does its measured and intended to develop Grant.

[hujsh]

Agree. My reading of it is that Grant needs to work harder, but its not a bake. As with most things B-Mac does its measured and intended to develop Grant.

He did get punished for converting 1/10 set shots at training (some very simple set shots too)

[Ghost Dog]

Brendan is on afl.com.au with a video called "access all areas" a fantastic interview.

Seems Jarrod Grant needs a firecracker lit up his backside.

ReLoad. Cheers for the tip on that Video. Enjoyed,

[jeemak]

He did get punished for converting kicking 1/10 set shots at training (some very simple set shots too)

I think some of our supporters really want to see this guy whipped.

[Bulldog4life]

There is a deliberate strategy with Panos in playing him in the backline to hone his defensive skills. I don't mind that and will only help his development in the future.

I think it is too. The more positions he can play in the better his future is with the Club. According to the Bulldogs website Panos was "Elevated off the rookie list for 2012 and signed a contract extension in November". I would assume that the extension would include the 2013 season.

[hujsh]

I think some of our supporters really want to see this guy whipped.

As in they don't like him and think he's soft or they want someone to set him straight.

I'm pretty disappointed by Grant so far but I still really want him to do well because he's shown a few times how dangerous he can be. I don't know if 'whipping' him will help or not though

[w3design]

Or Rocket's perspective on how the substitute should be managed.

I personally thought Hudson was cooked last year and Minson should have been playing first ruck.

A lot of "experts" were saying prior to last season, that the sub rule would be the death knell for the second ruck. I felt Rocket got sucked in by that. What disappointed me most was that when it was obvious that none of our kids could move out of key position to fill in when Huddo had to rest, the way Daws from the Colliwobbles and a few others could, that Rocket failed to face the bleeding obvious.
He should of bought Minno back in after a couple of rounds, and perhaps Huddo might have gone on for another season or two. By seasons end he looked burnt out.

[Desipura]

While I agree that Minson was a better 'tapper' of the ball, Huddo was so much better at many other parts of the game.

I agree, not to mention 2nd efforts and overall consistency

[DragzLS1]

While I agree that Minson was a better 'tapper' of the ball, Huddo was so much better at many other parts of the game.

Really?? Minson is better then huddo and should been our no.1 ruck last year. As much as I love huddo I still think he was taking up space last year other then a few games that he actually played really good in.

I will however eat my words next week if huddo wins the battle against minson

[Mantis]

Really?? Minson is better then huddo and should been our no.1 ruck last year. As much as I love huddo I still think he was taking up space last year other then a few games that he actually played really good in.

I will however eat my words next week if huddo wins the battle against minson

The arguement is more about years previous to last year when it was obvious that Huddo was starting to struggle, but Minno struggled too and was over-taken by Roughead as our no.2 ruck... but I guess that also had a fair bit to do with the role the no.2 had to play.

[Ghost Dog]

The arguement is more about years previous to last year when it was obvious that Huddo was starting to struggle, but Minno struggled too and was over-taken by Roughead as our no.2 ruck... but I guess that also had a fair bit to do with the role the no.2 had to play.

Always felt Minno got a rough trot under Rocket. the whole 'the dumbest smart bloke in the competition.' comment was perhaps indicative of Rocket's relationship with Will. In total contrast, can't ever imagine Mac saying such a thing.

[jeemak]

As in they don't like him and think he's soft or they want someone to set him straight.

I'm pretty disappointed by Grant so far but I still really want him to do well because he's shown a few times how dangerous he can be. I don't know if 'whipping' him will help or not though

Not specifically at you, or anyone on this board mate.

The impression I get though, is Grant is seen by many as someone who needs to be ridden as a result of a lack of effort or an outward showing of empathy towards his career and the cause.

Some of the derision I witness at games levelled towards him is pretty ordinary, and it seems to me people forget that we drafted him at number 5, rather than him choosing us.

I believe he is probably the most notable victim of our current issues in moving the ball well, and not having a reasonable forward structure or target (Higgins and Giansiracusa aside). He had an excellent season in 2010 when we were effectively transitioning the ball from defense to attack, and enjoyed being a foil for Barry Hall, and since then, he has not had a designated role within the side.

I can't comment on whether he is working hard enough, I'm not close to the club and I don't watch training sessions. From what I have seen though, he's a player that requires a simple role within the team, and a place close to goal where he can be dangerous with his unique attributes of goal sense, agility and handling skills.

If he's being put through a mini-preseason to get work in to his body then I think it's a very bold and innovative move by the club. The last game he played for us showed how sublimely talented he is, and if the club has made a decision that his talents will be best exposed as a result of this approach, then I'm happy for them to have given it a try.

[jeemak]

A lot of "experts" were saying prior to last season, that the sub rule would be the death knell for the second ruck. I felt Rocket got sucked in by that. What disappointed me most was that when it was obvious that none of our kids could move out of key position to fill in when Huddo had to rest, the way Daws from the Colliwobbles and a few others could, that Rocket failed to face the bleeding obvious.
He should of bought Minno back in after a couple of rounds, and perhaps Huddo might have gone on for another season or two. By seasons end he looked burnt out.

Some pretty good points here. Though, as much as I love Rocket and what he did for our club through his tenure I think he became a little jaded by certain players, with Will being one of them. Eade is a very strong character, and a great thinker, so I have trouble with anything other than stubborness getting in the way of his willingness to change his approach towards the Hudson, Minson and Roughead situation.

Hudson was burnt, and his effectiveness in stifling movement only assisted us in becoming slower in 2011. I will never question his intensity and effort though, he needs to be applauded for what he gave each week irrespective of how effective he was.

[Ghost Dog]

Not specifically at you, or anyone on this board mate.

The impression I get though, is Grant is seen by many as someone who needs to be ridden as a result of a lack of effort or an outward showing of empathy towards his career and the cause.
.


I do remember Grant being part of some Army boot camp at the start of 2010 where they just packed a bunch of young players off to some place and put them under the pump. Grant handled it very well IIRC.
From the recent interview with Brendan, the main issue seems not to be 'attitude' but methods ' becoming elite' and how skinny he is.

[LongWait]

I do remember Grant being part of some Army boot camp at the start of 2010 where they just packed a bunch of young players off to some place and put them under the pump. Grant handled it very well IIRC.
From the recent interview with Brendan, the main issue seems not to be 'attitude' but methods ' becoming elite' and how skinny he is.

I'm pretty sure that the issue with Grant is not talent, nor is it intent when he is playing. Grant is simply not fit enough, nor strong enough, to consistently give repeat efforts and position himself correctly around the play. BMac talked about how Grant and others in the team need to present themselves as professional footballers in a condition that allows them to train with the intensity required.

Grant has been put on notice that pure talent is not enough - he has to be able to compete more physically and repeat his efforts. I guess GAblett and StevieJ got the same message at Geelong a few years back (and I've heard that they were far from the only ones; those two just are just the most spectacular examples who were able to become absolutely elite A-Graders instead of second tier players.)

[Ghost Dog]

I'm pretty sure that the issue with Grant is not talent, nor is it intent when he is playing. Grant is simply not fit enough, nor strong enough, to consistently give repeat efforts and position himself correctly around the play. BMac talked about how Grant and others in the team need to present themselves as professional footballers in a condition that allows them to train with the intensity required.

Grant has been put on notice that pure talent is not enough - he has to be able to compete more physically and repeat his efforts. I guess GAblett and StevieJ got the same message at Geelong a few years back (and I've heard that they were far from the only ones; those two just are just the most spectacular examples who were able to become absolutely elite A-Graders instead of second tier players.)

Good points. It's wrong also IMO to bash Grant as he doesn't make his own training program. Like the fact McCartney has not continued to play Grant in an effort to put the spotlight on his issues. Lloyd makes a comment in today's AGE: " Grant has never put on the size required to hold down a key post, which after five years at the club staggers me."

[LongWait]

Good points. It's wrong also IMO to bash Grant as he doesn't make his own training program. Like the fact McCartney has not continued to play Grant in an effort to put the spotlight on his issues. Lloyd makes a comment in today's AGE: " Grant has never put on the size required to hold down a key post, which after five years at the club staggers me."

I also like that BMac didn't bash Grant - he gave a positive message about Grant first (said that he certainly sees opportunity/wants to improve) and then stated that Grant needs to improve physically and in his preparation. Lloyd sounds like he is making the same obsevation, however I think that Grant is more the third tall than he is a key position player. Perhaps I'm wrong about that though.

[GVGjr]

I'm pretty sure that the issue with Grant is not talent, nor is it intent when he is playing. Grant is simply not fit enough, nor strong enough, to consistently give repeat efforts and position himself correctly around the play. BMac talked about how Grant and others in the team need to present themselves as professional footballers in a condition that allows them to train with the intensity required.



Excellent observation and I think you're right on the money. The new coach has plenty of work to do with him.

[EasternWest]

Not specifically at you, or anyone on this board mate.

The impression I get though, is Grant is seen by many as someone who needs to be ridden as a result of a lack of effort or an outward showing of empathy towards his career and the cause.

Some of the derision I witness at games levelled towards him is pretty ordinary, and it seems to me people forget that we drafted him at number 5, rather than him choosing us.

I believe he is probably the most notable victim of our current issues in moving the ball well, and not having a reasonable forward structure or target (Higgins and Giansiracusa aside). He had an excellent season in 2010 when we were effectively transitioning the ball from defense to attack, and enjoyed being a foil for Barry Hall, and since then, he has not had a designated role within the side.

I can't comment on whether he is working hard enough, I'm not close to the club and I don't watch training sessions. From what I have seen though, he's a player that requires a simple role within the team, and a place close to goal where he can be dangerous with his unique attributes of goal sense, agility and handling skills.

If he's being put through a mini-preseason to get work in to his body then I think it's a very bold and innovative move by the club. The last game he played for us showed how sublimely talented he is, and if the club has made a decision that his talents will be best exposed as a result of this approach, then I'm happy for them to have given it a try.

Excellent post jeemak.

[stefoid]

From what I have seen though, he's a player that requires a simple role within the team, and a place close to goal where he can be dangerous with his unique attributes of goal sense, agility and handling skills.

Yes, and also use his speed defensively too. Just be involved all the time.