Jason McCartney's View On Drafting Etc...

[The Coon Dog]

Saw this in the local paper, couldn't find the online version.

http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd340/TheCoonDog/Other%20stuff/scan0001a.jpg

[azabob]

Thanks TCD!

[azabob]

I like that he is looking a fairly tall midfielders that are quality. Hopefully quality means great foot and hand skills.

He certainly has a tough job trying to balance our list in the coming few years.

[Hotdog60]

That was a good read, thanks TCD.

[Maddog37]

Good read. Thanks TCD. Sounds like he has been listening to the Bmac hymn book.

[LongWait]

Good read. Thanks TCD. Sounds like he has been listening to the Bmac hymn book.

Agree Maddog: certainly is a consistent theme coming out of the kennel.

Thanks for the article TCD - much appreciated.

[GVGjr]

We do need to focus on versatile midfielders but I hope they are guys with a bit of pace as well.

[stefoid]

Sounds like Vlastuin and Stringer will be firmly in our sights then, at 186 and 191.

Toumpas is 183 but I think really quick guys with tricks who kick goals can also play a role forward, obviously.

Menzel also, at 189cm

Wonder if that means Kennedy woudlnt be considered?

[GVGjr]

Sounds like Vlastuin and Stringer will be firmly in our sights then, at 186 and 191.

Toumpas is 183 but I think really quick guys with tricks who kick goals can also play a role forward, obviously.

Menzel also, at 189cm

Wonder if that means Kennedy woudlnt be considered?

Must have grown a lot. I think on AFL.com he is listed at 186cm.

[bulldogsman]

We do need to focus on versatile midfielders but I hope they are guys with a bit of pace as well.

Agree and skill.

[stefoid]

Must have grown a lot. I think on AFL.com he is listed at 186cm.

whoops, older brother

[jeemak]

Thanks TCD.

I hope he's not too hell bent on going for midfielders over a certain height though, as I don't think there's a great deal of impact between gun midfielders that are 184cm and 190cm. I do agree though, that guys like Dangerfield are the perfect build however, he also has excellent talent across all areas that many guys his height and weight don't. On the flipside, you look at a player like Judd, who can't take an overhead mark to save himself, while a guy like Ablett at 182 can play very short and out body someone in a contest on a regular basis.

He makes an excellent point about Jones, Cordy and Roughead collectively. Supplemented by Grant, these guys are going to be very solid contributors for our club in a couple of years time.

[stefoid]

Putting two and two together (BMac has bemoaned lack of pacey medium forwards and JMac has indicated a preference from BMac for big bodied mids), then Stringer looks like the perfect fit - 191cm, 91kg multi-bag kicking player with great hands, skills, pace and ability to play forward or midfield. Would play round 1, 2013, as a high HF you would think.

[LostDoggy]

Judd, who can't take an overhead mark to save himself, while a guy like Ablett at 182 can play very short and out body someone in a contest on a regular basis.

Really enjoying your contribution jeemak (what's that username from btw?)

Bartel and Crossy are also great overhead marks, and Bartel in particular isn't particularly huge. Judd's bad shoulders probably has a bit to do with his overhead ability.. wasn't a bad mark as a junior.

[LostDoggy]

I'm interested in Jason's comments about trading.. he says that Sydney can't bottom out too much because they are in a cutthroat market.

This concerns me slightly because I hope it doesn't mean that the club think that we're in any less of a cutthroat market than Sydney -- we are last/second last on the list of a city with ten teams, haven't won a flag since Singapore was a British colony, and struggle to get any kind of profile or airtime with the AFL.

I say if it works for Sydney, we should certainly be at least learning from them. If the Dogs can't win a premiership in the next ten years, making the finals every single year (and being a top 4 team in at least 3-4 of them) will be the next best thing. It would certainly ensure that we at least build up a consistent culture of high achievement (and probably a far more consistent supporter base) from which bids for premierships can be launched.

[Ghost Dog]

I'm interested in Jason's comments about trading.. he says that Sydney can't bottom out too much because they are in a cutthroat market.

This concerns me slightly because I hope it doesn't mean that the club think that we're in any less of a cutthroat market than Sydney -- we are last/second last on the list of a city with ten teams, haven't won a flag since Singapore was a British colony, and struggle to get any kind of profile or airtime with the AFL.

I say if it works for Sydney, we should certainly be at least learning from them. If the Dogs can't win a premiership in the next ten years, making the finals every single year (and being a top 4 team in at least 3-4 of them) will be the next best thing. It would certainly ensure that we at least build up a consistent culture of high achievement (and probably a far more consistent supporter base) from which bids for premierships can be launched.

Yeah it raised my eyebrows as well. Hey don't Sydney also get some sort of zoning advantage in the draft IIRC? I know in 2011 in the Rookie Draft GWS alternated with the Sydney for NSW rookies. And IIRC they have exclusive selection of players in Northern NSW. Does that continue into 2012?

[Cyberdoggie]

Reads more like an inside footy magazine article than a local rag.

I certainly don't get anything like this in the Knox Leader.

[LongWait]

I'm interested in Jason's comments about trading.. he says that Sydney can't bottom out too much because they are in a cutthroat market.

This concerns me slightly because I hope it doesn't mean that the club think that we're in any less of a cutthroat market than Sydney -- we are last/second last on the list of a city with ten teams, haven't won a flag since Singapore was a British colony, and struggle to get any kind of profile or airtime with the AFL.

I say if it works for Sydney, we should certainly be at least learning from them. If the Dogs can't win a premiership in the next ten years, making the finals every single year (and being a top 4 team in at least 3-4 of them) will be the next best thing. It would certainly ensure that we at least build up a consistent culture of high achievement (and probably a far more consistent supporter base) from which bids for premierships can be launched.

I think that it is a bit late for us to consider avoiding finishing in the lower reaches of the ladder Lantern.

We rolled the dice and made a play for Hall, Aker and Sherman and perhaps even prolonged a career or two while trying to pinch a flag. I think it was the correct thing to do at the time, as we were pretty close to going to the big dance. Now we are paying the price and have no choice but to draft our way out of our situation.

I don't believe that the club thinks it is ok to bottom out, rather they are facing the reality of our situation. You can't redevelop and restructure the side in one trade and draft period, particularly when that draft (2011) is not that strong and is heavily compromised by the expansion team concessions.

Sydney are quite correct in avoiding bottoming out at any cost and, from now on, I'm sure we will be doing the same. This is probably our clubs' last chance to rebuild the team using a number of low draft picks. After this, we might not survive another spell in the bottom reaches of the ladder. I guess that was the point you were making, and if so I agree completely.

[Mantis]

We rolled the dice and made a play for Hall, Aker and Sherman and perhaps even prolonged a career or two while trying to pinch a flag. I think it was the correct thing to do at the time, as we were pretty close to going to the big dance. Now we are paying the price and have no choice but to draft our way out of our situation.



I can't believe that to be true.

We are paying the price for some horrible drafting & trading through the mid to late 2000's.

Our only players in the 22-28 year bracket who I would rate better than D grade players are Griffen & Picken which is why we are in a big bloody hole.

[bornadog]

I can't believe that to be true.

We are paying the price for some horrible drafting & trading through the mid to late 2000's.

Our only players in the 22-28 year bracket who I would rate better than D grade players are Griffen & Picken which is why we are in a big bloody hole.

You don't rate Minson better than a D :eek:

I would suggest Higgins, Sherman and Cooney are better than D as well.

PS; I would also suggest Wood goes alright. Cordy Roughead turn 22 this year and have potential. Grant has shown he can play.

I think D grade is very harsh.

[stefoid]

I think fans and support thrive more on hope for a better future than a specific ladder position.

In many ways, a bottom four finish is probably better for future memberships (with the hope of gun draft picks that it promises) than a middle of the table 'just missing out on the finals' type of finish.

And I think its not so much how many you win or lose, but how well you play that gives fans hope. I mean, we might end up winning less games this year than last year, yet in our losses to some of the better teams - we have served up some decent footy that provides hope we can improve on it rather than some of the dispirited thrashings we received last year where we conceded big, big points against and seemingly no hope of improvement.

[Mantis]

You don't rate Minson better than a D :eek:

I would suggest Higgins, Sherman and Cooney are better than D as well.

PS; I would also suggest Wood goes alright. Cordy Roughead turn 22 this year and have potential. Grant has shown he can play.

I think D grade is very harsh.

Ok, Will on this year is an improving C, but it's his first year in probably 4 where he has been ok.

On this years form the rest aren't..... IMHO opinion.

[LongWait]

I can't believe that to be true.

We are paying the price for some horrible drafting & trading through the mid to late 2000's.

Our only players in the 22-28 year bracket who I would rate better than D grade players are Griffen & Picken which is why we are in a big bloody hole.

Well I can't believe that you think we didn't top up for a dash at a flag instead of pruning hard and bringing in more younger players. I guess we view history differently. Whilst we can all point to drafting failures, so too can almost every club. We can't blame our current predicament solely on piss poor drafting.

[Remi Moses]

I think fans and support thrive more on hope for a better future than a specific ladder position.

In many ways, a bottom four finish is probably better for future memberships (with the hope of gun draft picks that it promises) than a middle of the table 'just missing out on the finals' type of finish.

And I think its not so much how many you win or lose, but how well you play that gives fans hope. I mean, we might end up winning less games this year than last year, yet in our losses to some of the better teams - we have served up some decent footy that provides hope we can improve on it rather than some of the dispirited thrashings we received last year where we conceded big, big points against and seemingly no hope of improvement.

Spot on ^^^
Ninth is no mans land . Majority of fans these days are Savvy enough to realise teams need to rebuild . You only have to take a peek at the Draft Boards to realise the importance with pages and pages on potential prospects.

[Mantis]

Well I can't believe that you think we didn't top up for a dash at a flag instead of pruning hard and bringing in more younger players. I guess we view history differently. Whilst we can all point to drafting failures, so too can almost every club. We can't blame our current predicament solely on piss poor drafting.

I don't think we went over the top in 'topping up'. Sure we added some experience, but we didn't sell the farm to get them.

Agree that we kept a few on for too long, but with our drafting history would we have chosen wisely with the extra picks?

A couple of our rookie upgrades have been balls-ups too.

[Ghost Dog]

Spot on ^^^
Ninth is no mans land . Majority of fans these days are Savvy enough to realise teams need to rebuild . You only have to take a peek at the Draft Boards to realise the importance with pages and pages on potential prospects.

Rebuild or 'Refresh'
Have always admired the way Sydney are always in with a chance. They keep their culture of winning strong; I know which build mode I would prefer.

[westdog54]

I don't think we went over the top in 'topping up'. Sure we added some experience, but we didn't sell the farm to get them.

Agree that we kept a few on for too long, but with our drafting history would we have chosen wisely with the extra picks?

A couple of our rookie upgrades have been balls-ups too.

I'll give you that. Hooper and Mulligan stand out like Dogs balls.

In respect to Rookies I think we've been one of the biggest beneficiaries of the AFL's call to ensure that clubs are funded for at least 4 rookies per year. Prior to that decision the only rookie on our list was Tom Davidson, and we even had a sponsor kick in to get him on the list IIRC. We've since upgraded Jarrod Harbrow, Liam Pickenand Luke Dahlhaus. Of those only Dahlhaus went in the first round of the rookie draft.

Had the old setup for rookies been in operation we would have missed all of them. Even though Harbrow is no longer on the list he was a quality player for us and Picken and Dahlhaus are solidly in best 22, and in reality we're fortunate to have them on the list.

[bornadog]

I'll give you that. Hooper and Mulligan stand out like Dogs balls.

In respect to Rookies I think we've been one of the biggest beneficiaries of the AFL's call to ensure that clubs are funded for at least 4 rookies per year. Prior to that decision the only rookie on our list was Tom Davidson, and we even had a sponsor kick in to get him on the list IIRC. We've since upgraded Jarrod Harbrow, Liam Pickenand Luke Dahlhaus. Of those only Dahlhaus went in the first round of the rookie draft.

Had the old setup for rookies been in operation we would have missed all of them. Even though Harbrow is no longer on the list he was a quality player for us and Picken and Dahlhaus are solidly in best 22, and in reality we're fortunate to have them on the list.

and Picken was sponsored by Willi.

[mjp]

Spot on ^^^
Ninth is no mans land . Majority of fans these days are Savvy enough to realise teams need to rebuild . You only have to take a peek at the Draft Boards to realise the importance with pages and pages on potential prospects.

1/.I don't think fans are any savvier now than they ever were. You still hear the cries of frustration whenever the ball is kicked backwards or sideways to avoid kicking to a contest...those same people groan again when the ball is finally kicked to a contest and the opposition mark it. As for list management etc, there are a couple of simple rules most fans follow:
- Young kids are 'better' than old heads (because they haven't set high expectations through consistent positive performance yet).
- Injured players become better and more important to the side with every week they are out.

2/.99% of stuff on the draft boards is complete rubbish. The closer I get to it all - and I am up to my neck these days - the more I realise that the number of people who post who actually WATCH the players is minimal...the posts are a combination of bs and hearsay. And yes, I am talking about some of the more 'respected' posters out there.

[Sockeye Salmon]

1/.I don't think fans are any savvier now than they ever were. You still hear the cries of frustration whenever the ball is kicked backwards or sideways to avoid kicking to a contest...those same people groan again when the ball is finally kicked to a contest and the opposition mark it. As for list management etc, there are a couple of simple rules most fans follow:
- Young kids are 'better' than old heads (because they haven't set high expectations through consistent positive performance yet).
- Injured players become better and more important to the side with every week they are out.

2/.99% of stuff on the draft boards is complete rubbish. The closer I get to it all - and I am up to my neck these days - the more I realise that the number of people who post who actually WATCH the players is minimal...the posts are a combination of bs and hearsay. And yes, I am talking about some of the more 'respected' posters out there.

1/. 20 game rule.

2./ I'm sure most of those guys are simply repeating what they have heard, but considering they are not privvy to personal stuff (like xxxxx is too much of a dickhead to draft) for the most part the phantom drafts are fairly accurate.

[mjp]

2./ I'm sure most of those guys are simply repeating what they have heard, but considering they are not privvy to personal stuff (like xxxxx is too much of a dickhead to draft) for the most part the phantom drafts are fairly accurate.

The order? I guess - but that is still just consensus stuff. Or, maybe the views on the TAC Cup kids are OK but the WA/SA stuff is complete and utter dribble. Then again, having watched both the Vic Country + Vic Metro games from last week I swear no-one who has reported on the games actually looked at more than the stats sheet...

As for the 'too much of a dickhead' - if you are a good enough player you are a good enough bloke - after all, 'We have a very strong leadership group...' blah blah blah.

[Remi Moses]

1/.I don't think fans are any savvier now than they ever were. You still hear the cries of frustration whenever the ball is kicked backwards or sideways to avoid kicking to a contest...those same people groan again when the ball is finally kicked to a contest and the opposition mark it. As for list management etc, there are a couple of simple rules most fans follow:
- Young kids are 'better' than old heads (because they haven't set high expectations through consistent positive performance yet).
- Injured players become better and more important to the side with every week they are out.

2/.99% of stuff on the draft boards is complete rubbish. The closer I get to it all - and I am up to my neck these days - the more I realise that the number of people who post who actually WATCH the players is minimal...the posts are a combination of bs and hearsay. And yes, I am talking about some of the more 'respected' posters out there.

Most people leave their brains in the glovebox when they go to the footy.
Nearly all of us are blindsided because we don't watch any games

[Remi Moses]

The order? I guess - but that is still just consensus stuff. Or, maybe the views on the TAC Cup kids are OK but the WA/SA stuff is complete and utter dribble. Then again, having watched both the Vic Country + Vic Metro games from last week I swear no-one who has reported on the games actually looked at more than the stats sheet...

As for the 'too much of a dickhead' - if you are a good enough player you are a good enough bloke - after all, 'We have a very strong leadership group...' blah blah blah.

Thoughts on Kevin Sheehan MJP?

[Bulldog4life]

1/.I don't think fans are any savvier now than they ever were. You still hear the cries of frustration whenever the ball is kicked backwards or sideways to avoid kicking to a contest...those same people groan again when the ball is finally kicked to a contest and the opposition mark it. As for list management etc, there are a couple of simple rules most fans follow:
- Young kids are 'better' than old heads (because they haven't set high expectations through consistent positive performance yet).
- Injured players become better and more important to the side with every week they are out.

2/.99% of stuff on the draft boards is complete rubbish. The closer I get to it all - and I am up to my neck these days - the more I realise that the number of people who post who actually WATCH the players is minimal...the posts are a combination of bs and hearsay. And yes, I am talking about some of the more 'respected' posters out there.

Maybe but personally I love reading what other poster's opinions are about certain players. Irrespective if they are 100% correct or way off. I enjoy the diversity. That's what keeps this forum going. Like a recipe. A bit of bs, a bit of hearsay and a bit of knowledge. We don't want this forum to become a vehicle for those that are just "in the know" surely.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Maybe but personally I love reading what other poster's opinions are about certain players. Irrespective if they are 100% correct or way off. I enjoy the diversity. That's what keeps this forum going. Like a recipe. A bit of bs, a bit of hearsay and a bit of knowledge. We don't want this forum to become a vehicle for those that are just "in the know" surely.

I don't think mjp was referring to this forum.

[jeemak]

Really enjoying your contribution jeemak (what's that username from btw?)

Bartel and Crossy are also great overhead marks, and Bartel in particular isn't particularly huge. Judd's bad shoulders probably has a bit to do with his overhead ability.. wasn't a bad mark as a junior.

Thanks, and likewise.

The username is just a different way of spelling my nickname. How bland is that?

Agree with Judd. I really think overhead marking is an underrated quality in midfielders.

[Bulldog4life]

I don't think mjp was referring to this forum.


2/.99% of stuff on the draft boards is complete rubbish. The closer I get to it all - and I am up to my neck these days - the more I realise that the number of people who post who actually WATCH the players is minimal...the posts are a combination of bs and hearsay. And yes, I am talking about some of the more 'respected' posters out there.

Hmmm...Well maybe MJP can tell us if the respected posters are on this forum or not.

[LongWait]

Hmmm...Well maybe MJP can tell us if the respected posters are on this forum or not.

Relax B4L - I'm pretty sure you'll find the people MJP is referring to feature prominently on the BigFooty Draft and Trading Board, not on WOOF.

[Bulldog4life]

Relax B4L - I'm pretty sure you'll find the people MJP is referring to feature prominently on the BigFooty Draft and Trading Board, not on WOOF.

I am very relaxed but thanks for your concern.:) If Mjp had written it the way you have it would have been much clearer.

[mjp]

What LW said but I never mention other forums.

[Bulldog4life]

What LW said but I never mention other forums.

Thanks for clearing that up for me mjp.

[mjp]

No worries...that said, I DONT like arguing about players who have opinions based on 'a bit of BS' and 'a bit of hearsay'. I am all for debates, but do get annoyed when people are passionately debating something they clearly didn't have the passion to actually do the work on...

[LongWait]

@ MJP: Is it too early for you to throw up a list of potentials that you think we might be looking at?

[LostDoggy]

Spot on ^^^
Ninth is no mans land . Majority of fans these days are Savvy enough to realise teams need to rebuild . You only have to take a peek at the Draft Boards to realise the importance with pages and pages on potential prospects.

Ninth, yes. But I would far rather a season (or several seasons) where we finish 5th-8th, than several seasons where we finish in the bottom four. The bottom four sounds enticing from a drafting perspective, but it's fool's gold. We've messed up picks as high as 5, so it's no guarantee in any case, but worse, a season in the bottom 4 means a whole season of games like the games we played against Sydney and St. Kilda, and that would be a worse trade-off than any high draft pick, and would probably create a culture of failure that we would take 2 decades to climb out of.

I know West Coast and Hawthorn and Collingwood have dropped down the ladder recently to get early picks, but those are big clubs with big followings and lots of money, and more importantly, a culture of success. For teams with less of a track record, like Melbourne, staying in the bottom 4 is a recipe for long-term dysfunction, not a quick bounce back.

[LongWait]

Ninth, yes. But I would far rather a season (or several seasons) where we finish 5th-8th, than several seasons where we finish in the bottom four. The bottom four sounds enticing from a drafting perspective, but it's fool's gold. We've messed up picks as high as 5, so it's no guarantee in any case, but worse, a season in the bottom 4 means a whole season of games like the games we played against Sydney and St. Kilda, and that would be a worse trade-off than any high draft pick, and would probably create a culture of failure that we would take 2 decades to climb out of.

I know West Coast and Hawthorn and Collingwood have dropped down the ladder recently to get early picks, but those are big clubs with big followings and lots of money, and more importantly, a culture of success. For teams with less of a track record, like Melbourne, staying in the bottom 4 is a recipe for long-term dysfunction, not a quick bounce back.

I agree with you completely Lantern - if we are absolutely desperate for a pick in the top half dozen and we finish too high to naturally get it, we should be prepared to trade picks or players to upgrade. Tanking is unthinkable for a club such as ours (although experimenting and getting games into young players is not.)

[Mantis]

I agree with you completely Lantern - if we are absolutely desperate for a pick in the top half dozen and we finish too high to naturally get it, we should be prepared to trade picks or players to upgrade. Tanking is unthinkable for a club such as ours (although experimenting and getting games into young players is not.)

But isn't this one and the same?

By experimenting you are compromising your ability to win or sometimes to even be competitive.

[Desipura]

But isn't this one and the same?

By experimenting you are compromising your ability to win or sometimes to even be competitive.
Well we have no choice but to experiment given the lack of middle aged players on our list. Experimenting now will hopefully ensure we play a brand of footy that holds up against the better sides, we have to do it at some stage.
If we were truly tanking, Gia, Hargrave & Cross would be playing seconds.

[stefoid]

But isn't this one and the same?

By experimenting you are compromising your ability to win or sometimes to even be competitive.

I think the line is drawn when the siren starts. Do what you like at the selection table, but once the game is being played, you play to win. Unlike Melbourne playing players out of position deliberately to curb their influence, dragging players who kicked goal, that sort of thing.

[LostDoggy]

I agree with you completely Lantern - if we are absolutely desperate for a pick in the top half dozen and we finish too high to naturally get it, we should be prepared to trade picks or players to upgrade. Tanking is unthinkable for a club such as ours (although experimenting and getting games into young players is not.)

I'm just going to say it; surely if we get to round 20 and we are on similar games with clubs to finish between 12th and 15th on the ladder we would play kids to drop back. There are a group of 4-6 high quality mids early on from the looks of things that we'd be stupid to miss out on and if we end up pick 10 and above it could mean a huge differencial. I'm not an advocate of tanking a season but if we miss out on a much greater quality group of players because we finished 12th or 13th on % I'll be pretty frustrated. By all accounts this "superdraft" is on and we've thrown our dice on the table. We got miserly compensation from the AFL for the loss of a future captain and I want to get as much as we can for it. I'm aware I seem to be in the minority on this board regarding this point.

[LostDoggy]

I'm just going to say it; surely if we get to round 20 and we are on similar games with clubs to finish between 12th and 15th on the ladder we would play kids to drop back. There are a group of 4-6 high quality mids early on from the looks of things that we'd be stupid to miss out on and if we end up pick 10 and above it could mean a huge differencial. I'm not an advocate of tanking a season but if we miss out on a much greater quality group of players because we finished 12th or 13th on % I'll be pretty frustrated. By all accounts this "superdraft" is on and we've thrown our dice on the table. We got miserly compensation from the AFL for the loss of a future captain and I want to get as much as we can for it. I'm aware I seem to be in the minority on this board regarding this point.

Not with me you're not

It's simply good business management

[mjp]

IThere are a group of 4-6 high quality mids early on from the looks of things that we'd be stupid to miss out on and if we end up pick 10 and above it could mean a huge differencial.

Who are you going to miss out on? Last year we missed out on Crozier even though he was there at our selection...or maybe Smith is/will be a better player. Opinions are mixed on this (and 1 million other) points and I cannot see a pick or two making anywhere near as much difference as the player development work done at the club.

The draft is more than 10 deep and based on what I have seen even trying to figure out who the number 1 pick is going to be is a bit of a crap shoot.

[Maddog37]

Who are you going to miss out on? Last year we missed out on Crozier even though he was there at our selection...or maybe Smith is/will be a better player. Opinions are mixed on this (and 1 million other) points and I cannot see a pick or two making anywhere near as much difference as the player development work done at the club.

The draft is more than 10 deep and based on what I have seen even trying to figure out who the number 1 pick is going to be is a bit of a crap shoot.


Agree strongly here and That is where our new coach is key. Hope he s as good as he seems.

[LostDoggy]

Who are you going to miss out on? Last year we missed out on Crozier even though he was there at our selection...or maybe Smith is/will be a better player. Opinions are mixed on this (and 1 million other) points and I cannot see a pick or two making anywhere near as much difference as the player development work done at the club.

The draft is more than 10 deep and based on what I have seen even trying to figure out who the number 1 pick is going to be is a bit of a crap shoot.

We'll do OK wherever we end up I agree but FWIW I think Stringer or Toumpas would make a huge difference to our club and we'd likely get one of them 5 or 6 (if Melbourne are forced to take Viney) but not 8 or 9. Accepting the draft will be overanalysed by everyone, and thrown around/chopped and changed by 1000 experts ad infinitum between now and draft time; Whitfield, Toumpas, Stringer seem to be standouts in a solid year. I've seen all three play twice live minimum, I've watched alot of the other "pundit picks", and I just want them. If it means we play Hooper/Skinner round 20 onwards to get one of them I'm OK with it. The old "opinions are like .... and everyones got one" springs to mind when I type this but that's my position on it. There are many other good players in the offering but these guys look outstanding.

[stefoid]

Who are you going to miss out on? Last year we missed out on Crozier even though he was there at our selection...or maybe Smith is/will be a better player. Opinions are mixed on this (and 1 million other) points and I cannot see a pick or two making anywhere near as much difference as the player development work done at the club.

The draft is more than 10 deep and based on what I have seen even trying to figure out who the number 1 pick is going to be is a bit of a crap shoot.

Sure, but the lower the pick the more chance of getting the type of player you want, right?

[mjp]

We'll do OK wherever we end up I agree but FWIW I think Stringer or Toumpas would make a huge difference to our club and we'd likely get one of them 5 or 6 (if Melbourne are forced to take Viney) but not 8 or 9. Accepting the draft will be overanalysed by everyone, and thrown around/chopped and changed by 1000 experts ad infinitum between now and draft time; Whitfield, Toumpas, Stringer seem to be standouts in a solid year. I've seen all three play twice live minimum, I've watched alot of the other "pundit picks", and I just want them. If it means we play Hooper/Skinner round 20 onwards to get one of them I'm OK with it. The old "opinions are like .... and everyones got one" springs to mind when I type this but that's my position on it. There are many other good players in the offering but these guys look outstanding.

I watched Stringer play up close and personal on the weekend and he simply wasn't up to it against div 1 opposition. Top 10? Good God. The world has gone crazy.

Whitfield? Fine. Toumpas...yep - he runs hard I accept that - is he really a difference making player??? Our first round pick might get us Travis Boak who is a lot more surer bet than either of them.

If you are talking missing out on Patton last year or the chance to draft Hogan this year, then I am buying. Mids - even very good ones - are going to come and go...the secret is getting a BUNCH of them to throw at the opposition.

[LostDoggy]

Leaving the differencial on the actual players either of us would take (which is still highly subjective mid-year) the philosphical approach to getting as high as we can during the season vs trading position is the bigger question for me. Assuming 6 Cooney potential players are lined up picks 1-6 and then 6 Higgin type picks 7-18 i.e still pretty handy players, I'd suggest it makes sense to play kids from round 20. I totally get no-one can read a draft in that level of intimacy but I do believe we may see a fair old gap at somewhere post pick 5-8. If you look back into draft history it seems from about the 2000 onward drafts the consistent match winning players get picked out before pick 8. There are exceptions. The club needs to make that call but if they believe the draft stacks up anywhere near that (i.e Cooney types pre 5 or 6 v Higgins types thereafter) would you still object to the directive to gently tank late to be made?

Melbourne were probably too obvious about it (and their culture seems to suck) but the MC could easily justify playing more kids late and goodness knows our list needs games in kids we think could make it anyway. If you look back, we kind of did this last year so it's just a greater extention of that. I'd prefer to go to a winning game than a losing game but I'd rather win a premiership than come 12th instead of 15th and I'll take the pain of a couple of extra losses to get hold of a matchwinnng Cooney type player any time we need to.

Totally agree re the BUNCH of mids but I'll put a bunch of Cooney's against a bunch of Higgins' any day of the week. Can't see us getting Boak - he's Geelong bound for mine so we'll need to build up via the best of the draft we can get.

[stefoid]

I watched Stringer play up close and personal on the weekend and he simply wasn't up to it against div 1 opposition. Top 10? Good God. The world has gone crazy.

Whitfield? Fine. Toumpas...yep - he runs hard I accept that - is he really a difference making player??? Our first round pick might get us Travis Boak who is a lot more surer bet than either of them.

If you are talking missing out on Patton last year or the chance to draft Hogan this year, then I am buying. Mids - even very good ones - are going to come and go...the secret is getting a BUNCH of them to throw at the opposition.

From what I hear on the big footy D&T board :) Stringer is recovering from a broken leg isnt he?

Regardless , for those of us who survive on heresay, he sounds like the type of player we need, whether its specifically him or a similar player. The lower the draft picks we get, the better the chance we get a quality player of the type we need. And we all know thats classy, line breaking players who can kick the ball and kick goals, either from the midfield and when playing forward.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Not with me you're not

It's simply good business management

Me either

[mjp]

Totally agree re the BUNCH of mids but I'll put a bunch of Cooney's against a bunch of Higgins' any day of the week. Can't see us getting Boak - he's Geelong bound for mine so we'll need to build up via the best of the draft we can get.

Me too. But if the bunch of Higgins' are kicking it to Buddy and the bunch of Cooneys' are kicking it to Will Minson, what do you think the score might be?

If Boak is to be traded Port will want the best offer possible - if we make that offer AND offer strong compensation for the player ($) then we are every chance.

Going back to Stringer, apparently he broke his leg last year but had kicked 20+ goals at TAC Cup level and was averaging 25 touches per game THIS year. It just isn't that easy at the championships - which is why performances there count and in terms of being drafted you are often better off NOT being selected than playing well in the trial games, getting a chance and having a couple of quiet ones.

[bornadog]

Me too. But if the bunch of Higgins' are kicking it to Buddy and the bunch of Cooneys' are kicking it to Will Minson, what do you think the score might be?

If Boak is to be traded Port will want the best offer possible - if we make that offer AND offer strong compensation for the player ($) then we are every chance.

Going back to Stringer, apparently he broke his leg last year but had kicked 20+ goals at TAC Cup level and was averaging 25 touches per game THIS year. It just isn't that easy at the championships - which is why performances there count and in terms of being drafted you are often better off NOT being selected than playing well in the trial games, getting a chance and having a couple of quiet ones.

MJP, how are these kids assessed on whether they have the passion to make it in the big league? At the ages of 16, 17 and even 18 kids can show real talent but other distractions scan come into their lives and they could eventually lose the passion to play at the highest level.

I guess what I am asking is how important do you see the role of the recruiters to delve into their lives and find out what is in their heads before recruiting them? This is surely a big part of recruitment and list management and I would think one of the most important areas when making a decision.

I was involved in elite kayaking for awhile through my daughter and saw many talented kids who have gone on to compete at world championships, yet many seem to burn out and give it up when they are around 19 years old. How can this be managed earlier, ie the loss of the passion etc.

As a coach, do you worry about these aspects or just worry about coaching who you have at your disposal and let the AFL recruiters do their job? I would imagine you almost need a psychology degree to deal with the human side and not just the talent side.

[stefoid]

Me too. But if the bunch of Higgins' are kicking it to Buddy and the bunch of Cooneys' are kicking it to Will Minson, what do you think the score might be?

If Boak is to be traded Port will want the best offer possible - if we make that offer AND offer strong compensation for the player ($) then we are every chance.

Going back to Stringer, apparently he broke his leg last year but had kicked 20+ goals at TAC Cup level and was averaging 25 touches per game THIS year. It just isn't that easy at the championships - which is why performances there count and in terms of being drafted you are often better off NOT being selected than playing well in the trial games, getting a chance and having a couple of quiet ones.

Agreed - performance under pressure is everything. If Stringer cant, then we dont want him.

In answer to your hyperthetical, Id rather the midfield that can send the ball in properly rather than one that bombs it in the hope that the star forward can take a contested grab.

right now we need mids who can give themselves time and space and kick the ball properly more than we need the star forwards, wouldnt you agree?

[Sockeye Salmon]

Me too. But if the bunch of Higgins' are kicking it to Buddy and the bunch of Cooneys' are kicking it to Will Minson, what do you think the score might be?

If Boak is to be traded Port will want the best offer possible - if we make that offer AND offer strong compensation for the player ($) then we are every chance.

Going back to Stringer, apparently he broke his leg last year but had kicked 20+ goals at TAC Cup level and was averaging 25 touches per game THIS year. It just isn't that easy at the championships - which is why performances there count and in terms of being drafted you are often better off NOT being selected than playing well in the trial games, getting a chance and having a couple of quiet ones.

Should we be throwing the kitchen sink at getting Hogan?

[LongWait]

Should we be throwing the kitchen sink at getting Hogan?

This is what is exercising my mind as well Sockeye. If Hogan is highly likely to be a truly elite midfielder (ie. AFL All-Australian standard), then we would be obliged to move heaven and earth to get him. Surely. 'If' is a pretty big word in this context though.

[LostDoggy]

Me too. But if the bunch of Higgins' are kicking it to Buddy and the bunch of Cooneys' are kicking it to Will Minson, what do you think the score might be?

If Boak is to be traded Port will want the best offer possible - if we make that offer AND offer strong compensation for the player ($) then we are every chance.

Going back to Stringer, apparently he broke his leg last year but had kicked 20+ goals at TAC Cup level and was averaging 25 touches per game THIS year. It just isn't that easy at the championships - which is why performances there count and in terms of being drafted you are often better off NOT being selected than playing well in the trial games, getting a chance and having a couple of quiet ones.

Fair points. Jury is still out but I'm hopeful Cordy or Jones could step up to be somewhere way above Minson and somewhere under Buddy. Dare we dream?

All credit to the club if we get Boak for a fair price but I'm not sure I want him if he specifically wants to go to Geelong. Does he bring the right attitude if we were second choice and is that the image we want i.e had to chase him - dunno. I also ******* hate Geelong because of the 90's finals periods which clouds any judgement I can offer around people touching that ruddy club.

I'd still take Stringer top 3 or 4 from what I've seen but as I'm not currently seeing that lgrade of footy every week I'm happy to defer judgement until later in the year. Championship performance is an excellent guide so if he aint stepping up then the concerns are valid.

[bulldogsman]

This is what is exercising my mind as well Sockeye. If Hogan is highly likely to be a truly elite midfielder (ie. AFL All-Australian standard), then we would be obliged to move heaven and earth to get him. Surely. 'If' is a pretty big word in this context though.

Hogan is a key forward. I'd like to have a good crack at him.

So mjp are you are you suggesting we should go after a possible elite type forward early on in the draft or in the mini draft?

[LongWait]

Hogan is a key forward. I'd like to have a good crack at him.

So mjp are you are you suggesting we should go after a possible elite type forward early on in the draft or in the mini draft?

Well then he won't be an absolutely elite midfielder, will he? :o:o:o