Game Day 2012 - R14 Western Bulldogs vs Essendon

[LostDoggy]

Do you rate McCartney?

I'm starting to doubt him.
Listening to him at quarter time and at the end of the game on TV, he seemed very shaken and very very lacking in confidence. He sounded like a U18s country coach being interviewed and had the same answers.
To me it was more troubling than the players performance tonight.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Yes I do. I've seen King and Grant at the VFL games and they are nowhere near focused on proceedings.

Did McCartney bring King and Grant on board when he arrived, or did he not have a say in assembling his support crew?
For what it's worth, whilst I was not happy with Eade getting the chop, there are elements to McCartney that I can see as being attractive qualities in terms of fostering the right environment for a rebuilding list. I just hope that he has, or can obtain soon the right coaching structure around him, to help him with the other elements required to build a match-day effective team along as the journey.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I'm starting to doubt him.
Listening to him at quarter time and at the end of the game on TV, he seemed very shaken and very very lacking in confidence. He sounded like a U18s country coach being interviewed and had the same answers.
To me it was more troubling than the players performance tonight.

I don't see that at all. I think he was disappointed, as any coach would be. However for mine, I think he comes across as very confident. I think he is also not an open book, and is smart enough not to try and coach his team via the media. He has absolutely nothing to gain by giving away his exact thoughts to the media. And whilst it might be frustrating as a fan who wants answers, I completely agree with his disinterest in giving the media any sound bites.

[GVGjr]

Did McCartney bring King and Grant on board when he arrived, or did he not have a say in assembling his support crew?
For what it's worth, whilst I was not happy with Eade getting the chop, there are elements to McCartney that I can see as being attractive qualities in terms of fostering the right environment for a rebuilding list. I just hope that he has, or can obtain soon the right coaching structure around him, to help him with the other elements required to build a match-day effective team along as the journey.

King and Grant are Macca's boys but I think we could have done better. Montgomery I don't feel adds a lot of value.

Regarding Eade, as much as people are putting McCartney under the microscope, we would be in as bad as position if Eade was at the helm and quite frankly the noise from the media would be overwhelming. Eade had to go and we selected McCartney as his replacement.

With that in mind, we need to give him time and support and I hope the club is looking at way it can increase the support to him.

[Eastdog]

King and Grant are Macca's boys but I think we could have done better. Montgomery I don't feel adds a lot of value.

Regarding Eade, as much as people are putting McCartney under the microscope, we would be in as bad as position if Eade was at the helm and quite frankly the noise from the media would be overwhelming. Eade had to go and we selected McCartney as his replacement.

With that in mind, we need to give him time and support and I hope the club is looking at way it can increase the support to him.

What about Leon Cameron? Do you think he could of been another good choice not that Brendan McCartney wasn't a good choice as I think he is a good choice.

[GVGjr]

What about Leon Cameron? Do you think we could of been another good choice not that Brendan McCartney wasn't a good choice as I think he is a good choice.


No way, Cameron was not the guy to take us forward.

[LostDoggy]

I don't see that at all. I think he was disappointed, as any coach would be. However for mine, I think he comes across as very confident. I think he is also not an open book, and is smart enough not to try and coach his team via the media. He has absolutely nothing to gain by giving away his exact thoughts to the media. And whilst it might be frustrating as a fan who wants answers, I completely agree with his disinterest in giving the media any sound bites.

He was pausing, stuttering, speaking softly, didn't know what to say. He came across not very confident at all.
No coach gives away anything, but he basically said nothing and said it mumbling.

[bornadog]

Do you rate McCartney?

We have to start wondering why we are playing three rucks, plus Jones plus two big talls down back. We are too slow and cumbersome. What is going on with the selectors?

We have start wondering why when we get so much of the ball we just bomb it long, lose possession and cop goal after goal. These are all instructions from the coach.

[SonofScray]

This season is starting to turn into worse case scenario type stuff. Its looking ugly for the rest of the year and unfortunately there are more and more questions being asked than answered.

I accept we aren't in a good position skill wise and talent wise. There are a significant number of teams who are just better at playing the game at this point in time. But I hate the fact that we just get dealt with as a matter of course.

[Sedat]

We are horribly unskilled so we can't hit a spot-up target on the lead to save ourselves, which means our forwards can never get a lace-out opportunity to hit the scoreboard.

We are treacle slow so we can't get any separation on the opposition, which means we always rush our already unskilled disposal.

Because we are so slow and unskilled, we never ever take the game on and pull the trigger. Our ball movement out of defence in particular (especially sans Murphy) is so slow and conservative and just butt-ugly to watch. We are clearly the worst team in the competition aesthetically - how the hell will our membership dept be able to sell memberships next season?

Apparently after a major review, the only problem we had was the senior coach. Everything else in the footy dept was supposedly hunky-dory. Fitness and conditioning? Tick. Skills coaching? Tick. Recruiting? Tick. List management? Tick. Player contract negotiations? Tick. All we needed was a 'refresh' (whatever the hell that means) and a new coach apparently :rolleyes:

[bornadog]

We are horribly unskilled so we can't hit a spot-up target on the lead to save ourselves, which means our forwards can never get a lace-out opportunity to hit the scoreboard.

We are treacle slow so we can't get any separation on the opposition, which means we always rush our already unskilled disposal.

Because we are so slow and unskilled, we never ever take the game on and pull the trigger. Our ball movement out of defence in particular (especially sans Murphy) is so slow and conservative and just butt-ugly to watch. :

The trouble is our forwards don't lead at all. Have a look at be way the Essendon forwards lead and then the ball carrier hits them on the chest. We just bomb the ball long and expect a contested mark.

[Sedat]

The trouble is our forwards don't lead at all. Have a look at be way the Essendon forwards lead and then the ball carrier hits them on the chest. We just bomb the ball long and expect a contested mark.
It's chicken and egg...because of our painfully slow movement out of defence, our forwards don't know when to lead and they are also disadvantaged numerically by opposition structures. And because they are static, our defenders/mids don't know when to pull the trigger anf kick to a target inside 50, so invariably they just bomb it to the hot spot and hope for the best. It is so messy and ugly to watch.

[SonofScray]

Apparently after a major review, the only problem we had was the senior coach. Everything else in the footy dept was supposedly hunky-dory. Fitness and conditioning? Tick. Skills coaching? Tick. Recruiting? Tick. List management? Tick. Player contract negotiations? Tick. All we needed was a 'refresh' (whatever the hell that means) and a new coach apparently :rolleyes:

Good points. I'm right behind Mac at this point in time but the sentiment above really rings true. There are some facets (footy dept in particular) of the Club which are really starting to stink. I'm just not sure what we are trying achieve or represent anymore.

That being said, I understand what Mac is trying do and if it works, will correct some of the issues I see in our playing group and leadership. There is some decent pay off.

[bornadog]

Good points. I'm right behind Mac at this point in time but the sentiment above really rings true. There are some facets (footy dept in particular) of the Club which are really starting to stink. I'm just not sure what we are trying achieve or represent anymore.

That being said, I understand what Mac is trying do and if it works, will correct some of the issues I see in our playing group and leadership. There is some decent pay off.

Personally other than winning CP which is what we were told about I can't see what Macca is trying to do ?

[SonofScray]

Personally other than winning CP which is what we were told about I can't see what Macca is trying to do ?
I'm not seeing a lot on game day either. For me its been the message he is putting out there consistently. It isn't a tactics thing, he appears to be trying to introduce values.

He has been talking about players learning and excelling at their role and working through adversity etc. His language is consistent, some of stuff around sticking with Plan A, or playing certain players or combinations fits in with that idea (it isn't fun to watch and probably isn't working, I accept).

The whole CP mania as a measure of 'cracking in' needs to be broadened, I am hoping that we aren't so narrow to think that the stat is a true indicator of 'cracking in.' For mine it is about doing our job and bringing a ruthless enthusiasm to beating your man, the measures for this should be different for different roles.

[Remi Moses]

I don't blame it all on Clayton, we seem to have made some poor recruiting decisions post Clayton as well, in consecutive drafts too, and also with trades.
We wasted the Harbrow pick, - who did Brisbane end up selecting with the Harbrow pick we sent there way for Sherman.
It makes me sick to see Hill performing well for West Coast, and last week seeing Everitt sink a clutch shot at the death to give Sydney the win is making me feel very nervous indeed.
Why is it other clubs seem to do well with our discards?

In hindsight they wasted the Sherman pick, but in a good side Sherman looks good.
Everitt hasn't nailed down a spot in Sydney, unusual for discards in Sydney.
Hill is getting of the leash in Perth and will be interesting how he goes under the intense finals pressure.

[Scraggers]

Good points. I'm right behind Mac at this point in time but the sentiment above really rings true. There are some facets (footy dept in particular) of the Club which are really starting to stink. I'm just not sure what we are trying achieve or represent anymore.

That being said, I understand what Mac is trying do and if it works, will correct some of the issues I see in our playing group and leadership. There is some decent pay off.

Serious question ... What is he trying to do ??? Please explain it to me, because I'm totally lost !!

[AndrewP6]

I don't understand...before the season started, the overwhelming consensus was that our list was going to struggle, we lacked quality and speed, and that contested ball would be our strength. Everyone seemed fairly happy with that (with some exceptions, AndrewP6 being one off the top of my head). Having just had a look over the 'Predictions' thread, the majority picked us to finish 12th-14th with a few 'lucky' 7ths and 8ths.

As disappointing as the season is, it's hardly a surprise and I struggle to feel too upset about it. Our young players are getting exposure to AFL, we are developing leaders and a new game style. Change isn't going to happen overnight. We have a poor list, and need t

What wasn't I happy about? Can't remember back that far! :)

[AndrewP6]

Lake

No way, tonight was bad, but he's been pretty good in 2012 IMO. We're so bad, we can't give away one of the few who are any good.

[AndrewP6]

Maybe we need to start thinking whether we have the right coaching staff

Agree 100 %

[AndrewP6]

If a review highlights this being even remotely the case, then the powers that put hired the coaching teame should be shown the door.

That's the good thing about hiring those 'panels' - they're not club people, so you don't have to sack anyone! ;)

[Chicago1]

Boy, am I glad I didn't stay up/get up to watch that. The match started at 4.40AM here so I decided that if I got up in the middle of the night, checked my computer and saw that the scores were close, I'd stay up and watch the rest of the match online. However, I woke up at the end of the first quarter, saw that we were more than six goals behind and went back to bed. Smart move? At least we didn't lose by 100.

[AndrewP6]

Whats the fascination with the leadership group?

Our leaders on-field are really poor. When the going gets tough, the tough point fingers (our 'tough' anyway)

[SonofScray]

Our leaders on-field are really poor. When the going gets tough, the tough point fingers (our 'tough' anyway)

Do as I say, not as I do. Too much text book, not enough practicals.

[AndrewP6]

I'm not seeing a lot on game day either. For me its been the message he is putting out there consistently. It isn't a tactics thing, he appears to be trying to introduce values.

He has been talking about players learning and excelling at their role and working through adversity etc. His language is consistent, some of stuff around sticking with Plan A, or playing certain players or combinations fits in with that idea (it isn't fun to watch and probably isn't working, I accept).

The whole CP mania as a measure of 'cracking in' needs to be broadened, I am hoping that we aren't so narrow to think that the stat is a true indicator of 'cracking in.' For mine it is about doing our job and bringing a ruthless enthusiasm to beating your man, the measures for this should be different for different roles.

If so, they're failing dismally.

[SonofScray]

If so, they're failing dismally.

Miserably. Because they are all just diving in at the footy and scrambling.

[Scraggers]

I don't mind the losses (I hate to lose, but I expect we will lose to the better teams). What I do mind is being blown off the park. Our last three losses have been by an average of 78 points. There is no way that Essendon, Brisbane, and Sydney are (on average) 13 goals better than us. We are not showing anything on field ... We are showing less in the coaches box.

What is our strategy ?? What are we teaching our young pups ?? We all keep saying the future is bright with our young brigade. Bright for what ? They're showing glimpses of pure skill, but it is being beaten out of them, 13 goals at a time. :mad:

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I was a quarter way through writing up a detailed post, but I stopped and deleted it. I don't have the energy for it, but I'll sum up my concerns:

1) The playing list is in a bad shape. Older players are either finished or close to it and we have few consistent young players. Libba, Wallis, Dahlhaus and Roughead have been solid whilst Cordy/Jones show signs at times. Howard and Tutt have been massive disappointments whilst Grant, Sherman and Veszpremi aren't living up to their potential. We have little to no pace on our list. We have quite a few talls, but none look like a certainty to make it.

2) Recruiting department. See above. Howard/Tutt selections look worse by the day. List management could be thrown into this section too. Addison getting a two year contract is ridiculous.

3) Coaching staff - not sure what they are trying to implement. We all charge in for the football like an Under 9's side, and leave nobody on the outside for the spread. Teams like Essendon slaughter us through this, it's just so painful to watch. There seems to be no structure other than to 'crack in'. I like McCartney but some of the selections have been bizarre too, including match-ups. We rarely spot up targets -- we constantly bomb long and blindly to nobody. Senior players are doing this (Griffen included) so it cannot be blamed on the inexperience of our side.

4) Off-field matters. Membership and game attendance is a serious concern, particularly for future years. It just feels like we are in another dark period, but at least in 03/04 we had a great senior core (Grant, Darcy, Johnson, West, Smith) and a talented 'younger' group (Murphy, Gia, Hargrave, Hahn, Lake) and then later Cooney/Griffen. Right now, I don't see how we are going to improve with our current list. Griffen and Murphy are our only top graders, whilst we have an abundance of older/injured players who are cooked. There's no genuine match winning young talent coming through either. I like Libba/Wallis etc. but they are no genuine 'stars'.

Perhaps it's a bad night and it's a lot easier to be pessimistic, but I am concerned about our future on and off the field because I see very few positives in both areas.

My only solace is in a team like West Coast who turned the corner in 2-3 years, but I fear we could be going down the Melbourne/Port Adelaide path where it's 5+ years to rebuild.

[chef]

I wish we had a clone of that Collingwood recruiter.

Takes more than just recruiting players, you need to be able to develop them too. This is where we fall down.

[chef]

In hindsight they wasted the Sherman pick, but in a good side Sherman looks good.
Everitt hasn't nailed down a spot in Sydney, unusual for discards in Sydney.
Hill is getting of the leash in Perth and will be interesting how he goes under the intense finals pressure.

Bit early to call Elliot Yeo(that's who Brissie selected isn't it?) a waste.

[GVGjr]

Takes more than just recruiting players, you need to be able to develop them too. This is where we fall down.

Why is that though?
The ELC is on a par with other clubs, the Whitten Oval is a good training facility and we have a good relationship with Williamstown where players are given a great chance to develop into AFL players.

I think we are now paying a high price for a few reasons mainly around list management decisions.

Maintaining players on the list for to long when we were having supposedly having a crack for a flag. Hahn, Eagleton and Akermanis were all poor decisions for the club then and especially now.
We promoted Mulligan to the senior list and gave him a another few years when we had the option of maintaining him as a rookie for another year. We might have done the same with Panos. We couldn't make the hard call on Hahn and gave him another year as a rookie. Hooper was promoted prematurely as well.


In my opinion, we can develop players but obviously not ones without a real future. We just have a few too many of them.

[Sedat]

Bit early to call Elliot Yeo(that's who Brissie selected isn't it?) a waste.

Think it might have been Ryan Lester that Brisbane picked with that on-traded Harbrow compensation selection we gave to them for Sherman. And yes, it is way too early to speculate on him being a wasted pick.

After last night's ineffectual display, and knowing that the coach doesn't rate him much at all, Sheman is already looking an awful lot like a wasted trade. Sydney were dead keen on him at the time and offered up a better draft pick than we did - I can see Sydney offerring up a pissy 4th round selection to get him at the end of the season, and have a better chance of making him another one of their Moneyball success stories.

[LostDoggy]

I was a quarter way through writing up a detailed post, but I stopped and deleted it. I don't have the energy for it, .

still had a decent crack though.




we constantly bomb long and blindly to nobody. Senior players are doing this (Griffen included) so it cannot be blamed on the inexperience of our side.
correct, but I'd almost say the seniors are the worst. Someone like Libba likes the long kicks but atleast they are somewhat educated.




I like Libba/Wallis etc. but they are no genuine 'stars'.

Do you honestly believe this or is it an emotion statement? Throw in Dauhlhus and maybe one or to more break throughs and the future list will build.




My only solace is in a team like West Coast who turned the corner in 2-3 years, but I fear we could be going down the Melbourne/Port Adelaide path where it's 5+ years to rebuild.
I think this is where the whole "refresh not rebuild" came from. West coast did it so why can't we attitude. I think it is showing it isn't going to work.



We all charge in for the football like an Under 9's side,
Can't agree with you here. U9 have a zonal field to prevent them converging on the ball. Maybe Macca can put some cones out on Etihad for the next game?

[LostDoggy]

I Blame Scott Clayton. For someone with such a great reputation he has failed comprehensively at building our list.

Scott Clayton recruiting got us to 3 prelims.

[Sedat]

I've mentioned this elsewhere but if there was a standard between VFL and AFL we would be premiers almost every year. We have so many players on our list, both drafted in and traded for, that are inconsistent/non-contributors at the highest level but dominate the next level down. We have precious few genuine impact players at AFL level and a plethora of foot-soldier types who can occasionally play a role but regularly are found wanting against the better teams in the competition. Apart from Hudson and Akermanis (and Hall for a shorter time), the players we've traded in pretty much since the Wallace era have not had any sustained impact nor have they improved problem areas on our list. We invariably select fringe types from other clubs for low output that end up being list cloggers and never actually improve our list, and on the one occasion we went high profile, it was a disaster with Rawlings (because it was extremely poorly researched).

Our list required major surgery in so many areas. Jason McCartney has a mountain of work in front of him.

[LostDoggy]

Well first thing's first. We looked very slow. So coaching is not going to help with that.
If selection is part of the coaches role then there are to blame.
Continually picking 3 giants and stacking the forward line with talls and slows.

[ledge]

It seems to me we get the ball as much as our opponents but Macca has no idea on a forward plan, it just goes in all willy nilly, no good playing talls if your going to ask them to lead and then kick it to the opposition.
Blokes like Cordy should just be doing light leads and the ball put above the head, at the moment he is leading hard to a ball coming in at knee or chest height, might as well be a medium size forward.

Message to Macca get the forward line functioning ASAP and we will look a real threat.

[Hotdog60]

It's Maccas first year and it'd hard to pass judgment so soon. This year could be for him, finding out about his players and what they can and can't do.
The interesting thing will be to see how we stack up in two more seasons. Who is still on the list and who is not.
At the end of this season the interest will be who gets drafted and who gets cut (barring contract obligations).
It's is his first year and first time in the big league and he may not make it but you have to give him a chance. We had Rocket at the helm for a fair amount of time in footy terms and he develop a lot of our players from start so it will take them time to adjust to what the new coach wants. So I would give them this season for adjustment but there should be a big difference next season.

As it has been said, there will be some short term pain for so long term gain. (I hope:D)

[Desipura]

Whats the fascination with the leadership group?

I think the current leadership does not offer us what we need, to stand up when the chips are down.
The players I mentioned have from what I can see a professional attitude mixed with some untapped natural ability, they are not just battlers.

[Desipura]

We don't have. FWIW, I don't rate Shannon Grant, Montgomery or King.

Based on what? Grant has recruited Dickson and Campbell who have at leat showed some promise. It's not as if we paid a heavy price for these 2 recruits.

[GVGjr]

I think the current leadership does not offer us what we need, to stand up when the chips are down.
The players I mentioned have from what I can see a professional attitude mixed with some untapped natural ability, they are not just battlers.

Nor are they leaders. In time for sure but not now. Chucking people into the deep end isn't the answer although I know a lot of fans respond well to token gestures.

Leadership is not just confined to the on field endeavours either.

[GVGjr]

Based on what? Grant has recruited Dickson and Campbell who have at leat showed some promise. It's not as if we paid a heavy price for these 2 recruits.


We are talking about Grant as a coach not a recruiter.
I don't believe Grant nor King exhibit on the type of character we want in coaches and when I have seen them at VFL games they clearly aren't focused on the game. I don't think they have yet made the transition from player to genuine coaches and are at best career assistant coaches. We should want better than that.
Montgomery just hasn't added a lot to us.

[SonofScray]

We are talking about Grant as a coach not a recruiter.
I don't believe Grant nor King exhibit on the type of character we want in coaches and when I have seen them at VFL games they clearly aren't focused on the game. I don't think they have yet made the transition from player to genuine coaches and are at best career assistant coaches. We should want better than that.
Montgomery just hasn't added a lot to us.

What are they doing? Checking out the WAGs and having a laugh?

[GVGjr]

What are they doing? Checking out the WAGs and having a laugh?

Having a chat and catching up with mates.

[1eyedog]

It seems to me we get the ball as much as our opponents but Macca has no idea on a forward plan, it just goes in all willy nilly, no good playing talls if your going to ask them to lead and then kick it to the opposition.
Blokes like Cordy should just be doing light leads and the ball put above the head, at the moment he is leading hard to a ball coming in at knee or chest height, might as well be a medium size forward.

Message to Macca get the forward line functioning ASAP and we will look a real threat.

Yes and this is where we are 2-3 years off. It will not function with Gia or Higgins in it, Cordy needs further development and so do Jones and Roughead, although I feel Jones could just 'click' one year like Jack Riewoldt did. Grant needs another year to develop his positioning and size but he is much closer than the former players I mentioned, Dickson is a mediocre mid-sized forward and cannot be expected to kick 3 goals every week. Who's left? ASAP is 2-3 years away or about 50-60 games away for each of our tall forwards (at least).

[Ghost Dog]

Having a chat and catching up with mates.

GVG which game / date did you observe this? I would like to note this for future reference.

[1eyedog]

We are talking about Grant as a coach not a recruiter.
I don't believe Grant nor King exhibit on the type of character we want in coaches and when I have seen them at VFL games they clearly aren't focused on the game. I don't think they have yet made the transition from player to genuine coaches and are at best career assistant coaches. We should want better than that.
Montgomery just hasn't added a lot to us.

Wow that's pretty concerning.

[SonofScray]

Having a chat and catching up with mates.

Not surprised. Both come across as 'lads' rather than leaders. Not a reflection of my view on their coaching, just an observation on their personalities.

[Bulldog4life]

I was a quarter way through writing up a detailed post, but I stopped and deleted it. I don't have the energy for it, but I'll sum up my concerns:

1) The playing list is in a bad shape. Older players are either finished or close to it and we have few consistent young players. Libba, Wallis, Dahlhaus and Roughead have been solid whilst Cordy/Jones show signs at times. Howard and Tutt have been massive disappointments whilst Grant, Sherman and Veszpremi aren't living up to their potential. We have little to no pace on our list. We have quite a few talls, but none look like a certainty to make it.

2) Recruiting department. See above. Howard/Tutt selections look worse by the day. List management could be thrown into this section too. Addison getting a two year contract is ridiculous.

Interesting detailed post BB. I think you might have been a bit tough on Tutt. Played well at the end of last year then this year has been injured for most of the time. To early to tell whether it was a wasted pick in my opinion.

[always right]

Wow that's pretty concerning.

If accurate

[chef]

Not surprised. Both come across as 'lads' rather than leaders. Not a reflection of my view on their coaching, just an observation on their personalities.

They were both pretty strong leaders at the clubs they played for.

[Danny the snakeman]

Maybe Macca can put some cones out on Etihad for the next game?

Why not he had 18 witches hats on the field today.

[AndrewP6]

Can't agree with you here. U9 have a zonal field to prevent them converging on the ball. Maybe Macca can put some cones out on Etihad for the next game?

I could be mean and say "That's the role he's best equipped to perform" but I won't ;)

[GVGjr]

They were both pretty strong leaders at the clubs they played for.

They certainly were. I'm not sure they have been as strong leaders or role models since they finished playing their football though.


I'm sure they both have plenty to offer but I'd obviously like us to have a stronger number 2. It will be interesting to see if Montgomery gets another contract with us.

[LostDoggy]

Watching the game on TV back in Adelaide. The first qtr was really upsetting (the fact no one stepped in to challenge the avalanche that was taking place, especially after the Brisbane, Sydney games was painful). After that I watched closer to see who actually attempted to change this. I'd just like to give a massive hand to Tom Liberatore. He showed so much care to want to lift the team. I got a little firm when he nailed that goal from outside 50, didn't know it was in his DNA. He stepped in and appeared to me as if he wasn't going to stand for getting embarrassed like this (future leader inked all over him). Thought Lukey was great, just through shear desire to pressure and get the ball back created half our goals. Was really pleased with Clay's 3rd in particular, apart from the missed goal from the top of the goal square, it was exciting.

There's been thoughts that everyone's voiced that I've agreed with as well. I just couldn't bring myself to write about it.

Just watched the post match presser then. Macca is so good. I know people now are worrying about and questioning what we stand for and that's fair enough. I just think he's class! He admitted and said basically everything that we feel and talk about and from what I see he knows exactly whats going to happen in the coming years and how he's going to do it. This however does not make it any easier to watch games like last night. Aside from St.k and then Sydney games, the competitiveness was there in the first half of the year. Apart from a Port game dedicated to the great man, it's been lacking since. Looking forward to the response from here from here until the end of the year.

[Desipura]

We are talking about Grant as a coach not a recruiter.
I don't believe Grant nor King exhibit on the type of character we want in coaches and when I have seen them at VFL games they clearly aren't focused on the game. I don't think they have yet made the transition from player to genuine coaches and are at best career assistant coaches. We should want better than that.
Montgomery just hasn't added a lot to us.

Fair enough about Grant. A lady at work who is a mad Nth supporter when to see Nth last week and took a photo of Grant and her daughter who was drinking with her and mucking around.
Apparently he was at the game as part of his work on the opposition.

[Remi Moses]

Massive wraps on Matthew Egan.

[Rocco Jones]

I've mentioned this elsewhere but if there was a standard between VFL and AFL we would be premiers almost every year. We have so many players on our list, both drafted in and traded for, that are inconsistent/non-contributors at the highest level but dominate the next level down. We have precious few genuine impact players at AFL level and a plethora of foot-soldier types who can occasionally play a role but regularly are found wanting against the better teams in the competition. Apart from Hudson and Akermanis (and Hall for a shorter time), the players we've traded in pretty much since the Wallace era have not had any sustained impact nor have they improved problem areas on our list. We invariably select fringe types from other clubs for low output that end up being list cloggers and never actually improve our list, and on the one occasion we went high profile, it was a disaster with Rawlings (because it was extremely poorly researched).

Our list required major surgery in so many areas. Jason McCartney has a mountain of work in front of him.

Agree.

The high amount of these foot solidiers also skews our benchmark for being delisted. Hard to delist players when there are another 5 or so at the same level with a bit of false hope. I think we have been like hoarders over the last few years, keeping anyone with hope.

I think we really need to cut deep. Guys like Vez, Panos and DJ all promise a bit but in reality, I think they were be at the very best short term serviceable types. Moles has survived for awhile with the same 'promise'.

[Eastdog]

Takes more than just recruiting players, you need to be able to develop them too. This is where we fall down.

Absolutely chef that is vital the development of the recruits otherwise it is a waste.

[bornadog]

Agree.

The high amount of these foot solidiers also skews our benchmark for being delisted. Hard to delist players when there are another 5 or so at the same level with a bit of false hope. I think we have been like hoarders over the last few years, keeping anyone with hope.

I think we really need to cut deep. Guys like Vez, Panos and DJ all promise a bit but in reality, I think they were be at the very best short term serviceable types. Moles has survived for awhile with the same 'promise'.

Bit harsh on Panos, he is a 21 year old that has just been promoted. I agree we need to replace Vez, DJ, Moles, say goodbye to Gilbee, Hargrave, Hooper, Mulligan, and if I had my way, Addison and perhaps Gia.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Interesting detailed post BB. I think you might have been a bit tough on Tutt. Played well at the end of last year then this year has been injured for most of the time. To early to tell whether it was a wasted pick in my opinion.

I can't disagree with that, I actually like Tutt as a player but I am not sure our coaching panel hold the same view. We haven't got nearly enough out of Howard and Tutt for third year players though, and this hurts us quite a bit. It's not as though they are developing and improving at the minute either -- Tutt has spent his time on the sidelines and in the VFL whilst Howard is still a big concern IMO.

I hope we bring Tutt into the side next week if he's fit -- need to pump games into him as quickly as possible. Maybe we can have practice matches mid week so he can get two in per week ;)

[SonofScray]

Bit harsh on Panos, he is a 21 year old that has just been promoted. I agree we need to replace Vez, DJ, Moles, say goodbye to Gilbee, Hargrave, Hooper, Mulligan, and if I had my way, Addison and perhaps Gia.

Agree. Would toss up between Vez and DJ, maybe add Cross in the mix (hard call to make). Keep Higgins and retire/trade/delist Gia.

[Sedat]

Bit harsh on Panos, he is a 21 year old that has just been promoted.Has any other club promoted so many unproven rookies to the senior list with as much gay abandon as we have in recent seasons? Mulligan, Hooper, Panos, Moles - between them, they wouldn't have cobbled together more than 5 servicable games at senior AFL level. Ridiculous list management. Promoting Dahlhaus, Harbrow and Picken were no-brainer calls, but the other 4 were awful decisions that have unnecessarily clogged our list and delayed the rebuild. Panos could have been re-rookied for another season this year - I wouldn't have had a problem with that. Looks like we'll be doing it again with Tom Campbell at the end of the season.

[chef]

Has any other club promoted so many unproven rookies to the senior list with as much gay abandon as we have in recent seasons? Mulligan, Hooper, Panos, Moles - between them, they wouldn't have cobbled together more than 5 servicable games at senior AFL level. Ridiculous list management. Promoting Dahlhaus, Harbrow and Picken were no-brainer calls, but the other 4 were awful decisions that have unnecessarily clogged our list and delayed the rebuild. Panos could have been re-rookied for another season this year - I wouldn't have had a problem with that. Looks like we'll be doing it again with Tom Campbell at the end of the season.

And Austin.

[soupman]

And Austin.

Austin is a different category. Someone who has established himself as a regular member of our best 22 before being promoted, like Picken, Boyd, Morris and Dahlhaus all did prior to their elevations.

Out of Panos, Hooper and Mulligan only Hooper had played a game (just 1) prior to his promotion, and in each case we could have kept them on the rookie list for no extra cost. Baffling.

I'm not keen on insta-promoting Campbell because while he looks good, we have a few ruckmen and he hasn't shown he's in our best 25 yet, and Jong and JJ are even further back. JJ however if he shows enough would need to be promoted this year, while I'm sure Jong could develop just as well as a rookie again.

[chef]

Austin is a different category. Someone who has established himself as a regular member of our best 22 before being promoted, like Picken, Boyd, Morris and Dahlhaus all did prior to their elevations.

Out of Panos, Hooper and Mulligan only Hooper had played a game (just 1) prior to his promotion, and in each case we could have kept them on the rookie list for no extra cost. Baffling.

I'm not keen on insta-promoting Campbell because while he looks good, we have a few ruckmen and he hasn't shown he's in our best 25 yet, and Jong and JJ are even further back. JJ however if he shows enough would need to be promoted this year, while I'm sure Jong could develop just as well as a rookie again.

But with a fit Williams, Morris, Markovic and Lake(Roughead is a KPD as well according to the coach) plus Talia and Roberts developing we would be crazy to have Austin taking a spot on the main list next year and denying a draftee a spot.

We already have to many talls on our list and the sad thing is I'm not sure any of them are going to be (or are) stars.

[always right]

But with a fit Williams, Morris, Markovic and Lake(Roughead is a KPD as well according to the coach) plus Talia and Roberts developing we would be crazy to have Austin taking a spot on the main list next year and denying a draftee a spot.

We already have to many talls on our list and the sad thing is I'm not sure any of them are going to be (or are) stars.

So do we only promote blokes we believe will be stars? Personally I think Austin has shown enough to suggest he could become a regular.

[chef]

So do we only promote blokes we believe will be stars? Personally I think Austin has shown enough to suggest he could become a regular.

I guess it depends on if your happy having up to 10 KPD on our list. To me that's just crazy.

Lake, Williams, Markovic, Morris, Roughead(according to our coach), Panos(seems to be thrown for end to end at Willi), Roberts, Talia and maybe Jones(if he doesn't start showing some consistency up forward).

We would need to do a severe prune on the above guys before I would be promoting Austin(who I do like the look of).

[bulldogsman]

I'm not keen on insta-promoting Campbell because while he looks good, we have a few ruckmen and he hasn't shown he's in our best 25 yet, and Jong and JJ are even further back. JJ however if he shows enough would need to be promoted this year, while I'm sure Jong could develop just as well as a rookie again.

I disagree.

For a 20 year old ruckman he looks to have the goods, he just hasn't had the pre seasons of Roughead or even Cordy yet. Other clubs aren't silly and will be looking over the fence for a good ruckman like Campbell.

If Campbell had an offer to be on the main list at another club (and I think he would), he would be silly not to take it.

I'd try to trade Roughead personally and then look to rookie another ruckman.

[bornadog]

I disagree.

For a 20 year old ruckman he looks to have the goods, he just hasn't had the pre seasons of Roughead or even Cordy yet. Other clubs aren't silly and will be looking over the fence for a good ruckman like Campbell.

If Campbell had an offer to be on the main list at another club (and I think he would), he would be silly not to take it.

I'd try to trade Roughead personally and then look to rookie another ruckman.

Saints have already said they are on the look out for a ruckman.