Woof Player Awards Rnd 14 - Western Bulldogs vs Essendon

[BulldogBelle]

R 14 - Western Bulldogs vs Essendon

There are two awards that you can vote on, once the game is completed.

Voting closes each Tuesday at 8.00pm.

The first one is for the Joe Marmo Medal for the best players on the ground.

There are 4 votes allocated and it's a 4 for the best and of course 3, 2 and 1.

and

The second award is for the Ron James Medal for the best 2 pups on the ground.

2 Votes allocated - 2 being for the best pup and 1 for the runner-up
Remember the cut off age for a pup is 22 as at the 1st of January, 2012.

Pups available for selection –

Ayce Cordy, Luke Dahlhaus, Tom Hill, Andew Hooper, Christian Howard, Liam Jones, Thomas Liberatore, Matthew Panos, Daniel Pearce, Fletcher Roberts, Jordan Roughead, Clay Smith, Michael Talia, Jason Tutt, Mitchell Wallis.

Rookie's – Tom Campbell - (elevated), Alex Greenwood, Jason Johannisen, Lin Jong, Jack Redpath.
* Mark Austin - (elevated) (23yo – if elevated he’s not eligible for pup selection due to pup cut-off age)

Need to know more - The history of the WOOF Player Awards (http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=10461)

[Rance Fan]

4 Dahl - NRG
3 Minson - goals and tried hard all night around ground
2 Libba - in and under all night, and effective
1 Dickson - 8 tackles along with Dahl

2 Dahl
1 Libba

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Marmo

4. Dahlhaus
3. Minson
2. Libba
1. Griffen - for effort if not performance.

James
2. Dahlhaus
1. Libba

[The Underdog]

4. Dahlhaus
3. Smith
2. Liberatore
1. Hargrave

2. Dahlhaus
1. Smith

[giaco]

4. Dal
3. Boyd
2. Minson
1. Libba

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

4. Dal
3. Boyd
2. Minson
1. Libba

I know in a night like tonight it's hard to find deserving vote winners, but seriously- Boyd?
How influential was his 'opponent' Watson when the game was won in the first quarter and a half?

[bulldogsman]

4. Dahlhaus
3. Minson
2. Libba
1. Smith

2. Dahlhaus
1. Libba

[always right]

4. Dahl
3. Minson
2. Libby
1. Boyd

[giaco]

I know in a night like tonight it's hard to find deserving vote winners, but seriously- Boyd?
How influential was his 'opponent' Watson when the game was won in the first quarter and a half?

You gave Griffen votes - 19 possies at 53%. Boyd 34 possies at 74% and a goal.

NO wonder I rarely post on these boards.

[Rance Fan]

You gave Griffen votes - 19 possies at less than 60%. Boyd 34 possies at 74% and a goal.

NO wonder I rarely post on these boards.

Fair points!
Problem is neither of them really hurt the opposition often enough. Much like many others when they get the ball

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

You gave Griffen votes - 19 possies at less than 60%. Boyd 34 possies at 74% and a goal.

NO wonder I rarely post on these boards.

Please don't let my questioning make you not want to post, that's certainly not my intent.
Apologies if my comment has upset you. Feel free to debate the point, I'm not trying to belittle you, just questioning your choice- which seems reasonable on a forum?
Griff laid more tackles, had one less clearance, and was receiving heavy treatment from the Bombers all night, whereas Boyds direct opponent burned the house down and tore the game open. I would argue how effective Boyd's 74% 'effective' stats really were.

[giaco]

True. But in a bad night, Boyd was one of our best. Doesn't stop trying and actually kicked better tonight.

[giaco]

Please don't let my questioning make you not want to post, that's certainly not my intent.
Apologies if my comment has upset you. Feel free to debate the point, I'm not trying to belittle you, just questioning your choice- which seems reasonable on a forum?
Griff laid more tackles, had one less clearance, and was receiving heavy treatment from the Bombers all night, whereas Boyds direct opponent burned the house down and tore the game open. I would argue how effective Boyd's 74% 'effective' stats really were.

Summary - we were horrible, but Boydy, kept trying, winning the ball and actually used it better than usual. Griff just didn't get much of it and made bad decisions and didn't kick well.

Other than taggers, and around stoppages (Boyd had more clearances and contested possessions than Watson by the way) midfielders don't really have a direct opponent most of the time. Once players spread after contests, it's more about picking up the closest player or zoning. So Boyd wasn't directly opposed to Watson for most of the night.

I saw you give Griff votes and thought WTF, but said nothing because that's your opinion. So wasn't happy when you questioned me.

[LostDoggy]

True. But in a bad night, Boyd was one of our best. Doesn't stop trying and actually kicked better tonight.

I don't think he was, but hey, that's my opinion. YHF points out the game is played at both ends of the field, to borrow a USA sports quote defense wins games and you just don't see Boyd shutting anyone down. As for kicking, again, didn't see a lot of great ones from him tonight.

[SlimPickens]

4-Dahl
3-Libba
2-Minson
1-Smith

2- Dahl
1- Libba

[The Bulldogs Bite]

4- Minson
3- Libba
2- Smith
1- Higgins

2- Libba
1- Dahl

---------------------------------------

Wow, hard game to place votes. Minson was good, Libba tried hard and Smith was solid -- outside of that, I thought we were poor. Higgins tried hard, ditto Dahl, but both made a lot of errors.

[bornadog]

I know in a night like tonight it's hard to find deserving vote winners, but seriously- Boyd?
How influential was his 'opponent' Watson when the game was won in the first quarter and a half?

Picken was on Watson

[bornadog]

Summary - we were horrible, but Boydy, kept trying, winning the ball and actually used it better than usual. Griff just didn't get much of it and made bad decisions and didn't kick well.

Other than taggers, and around stoppages (Boyd had more clearances and contested possessions than Watson by the way) midfielders don't really have a direct opponent most of the time. Once players spread after contests, it's more about picking up the closest player or zoning. So Boyd wasn't directly opposed to Watson for most of the night.

I saw you give Griff votes and thought WTF, but said nothing because that's your opinion. So wasn't happy when you questioned me.

Agree Boyd was at 74 percent

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Picken was on Watson

Not during the first quarter. The commentators repeatedly mentioned the decision to have Boyd and Watson just go head to head.
They moved Picken onto Watson during the second quarter.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Agree Boyd was at 74 percent

That is a very misleading, and often irrelevant stat on it's own. What is more meaningful are the amount of times he had the ball clear, and on the move and was unable to hit a target. Appreciate he isn't the only one in our team at the moment who doesn't use the ball well, but often his are unforced errors, resulting in turnovers

[Greystache]

Agree Boyd was at 74 percent

He stated on Stanton but we has to make the move, Cross went onto Stanton for a while .

[bornadog]

That is a very misleading, and often irrelevant stat on it's own. What is more meaningful are the amount of times he had the ball clear, and on the move and was unable to hit a target. Appreciate he isn't the only one in our team at the moment who doesn't use the ball well, but often his are unforced errors, resulting in turnovers

74 Percent means he hit a target that many times when he had the ball 34 times.

What does it mean to you?

[westbulldog]

4. Dalhaus
3. Minson
2. Liberatore
1. Campbell

2. Dalhaus
1. Liberatore

I thought that I heard Jobe Watson had 14 possessions to quarter time and the game was then effectively over. Who was on Watson in the first quarter ?

[Greystache]

74 Percent means he hit a target that many times when he had the ball 34 times.

What does it mean to you?

As long as the kick is more than 40m it's recorded as an effective kick so long as its not a clangerr, Boyd virtually didn't put a ball to a team mates advantage all night. The effective disposal stat is the most misleading in football, a player can kick out from the back pocket direct to an opposing player on the bounce, have it kicked straight back over his head for a goal and still be credited with an effective kick. Ryan Hargrave has made an artform of the effective kick turnover.

[giaco]

74 Percent means he hit a target that many times when he had the ball 34 times.

What does it mean to you?

I think that's 25 effective possessions, which is more possessions than anyone else in our team had. But you name him in the best, and everyone comes after you.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

74 Percent means he hit a target that many times when he had the ball 34 times.

What does it mean to you?

It can mean several things, and you know it.
How many of his effective possessions were little dinky passes or little give and go handballs that weren't damaging, but do inflate his effectiveness %.
Compare that against how many times he had the ball as I stated I observed, where in the clear and under little or no pressure he was unable to hit a target, or not put it to our scoring advantage, or worse, actually ended up in a turnover that Essendon scored from.
Stats are silly things unless they are broken down.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I think that's 25 effective possessions, which is more possessions than anyone else in our team had. But you name him in the best, and everyone comes after you.

Chillt out giaco, big deal, someone queried your opinion, that's usually what happens on a forum.
Don't take it so personally.

[bornadog]

As long as the kick is more than 40m it's recorded as an effective kick so long as its not a clangerr, Boyd virtually didn't put a ball to a team mates advantage all night. The effective disposal stat is the most misleading in football, a player can kick out from the back pocket direct to an opposing player on the bounce, have it kicked straight back over his head for a goal and still be credited with an effective kick. Ryan Hargrave has made an artform of the effective kick turnover.

DEFINITIONS:


Disposal Efficiency Percentage
The total effective disposals divided by total disposals.*! Effective disposals are made up of effective long kicks, effective short kicks and effective handballs. An effective long kick is one that is 40 metres to a 50/50 or better for the team. An effective short kick is one that results in a teammate's possession who was the intended target of the kicker. A handball to a teammate that hits the intended target to the team's advantage is recorded as an effective handball

74 percentant disposal efficiency is pretty good under the official definition

[giaco]

Chillt out giaco, big deal, someone queried your opinion, that's usually what happens on a forum.
Don't take it so personally.

Very chilled, maybe slightly drunk. Just find it hard to believe that anyone could consider that Boyd was not in our best tonight. People jump on here every week criticising his disposal efficiency and when he does well on that score, they question what it means.

Anyhoo, it's bedtime and we've got bigger problems than Boydy. At least we know what we get with him each week.

[Greystache]

DEFINITIONS:


Disposal Efficiency Percentage
The total effective disposals divided by total disposals.*! Effective disposals are made up of effective long kicks, effective short kicks and effective handballs. An effective long kick is one that is 40 metres to a 50/50 or better for the team. An effective short kick is one that results in a teammate's possession who was the intended target of the kicker. A handball to a teammate that hits the intended target to the team's advantage is recorded as an effective handball

74 percentant disposal efficiency is pretty good under the official definition

Exactly, so kick long to the advantage of the opposition in a contest and despite it resulting in a turnover you still get credited with an effective kick. That is the definition of Boyd, effective on the stat sheet, a liability as a ball user. 74% efficiency yet virtually nothing effective.

[Sedat]

Marmo:

4. Dahlhaus
3. Minson
2. Liberatore
1. Dickson (little more than an encouragement award - our top 3 were the best by a street)

James:

2. Dahlhaus
1. Liberatore

[Remi Moses]

4. Dal
3. Boyd
2. Minson
1. Libba

Boyd's direct opponent had 14 I repeat 14 touches in the first term!::eek:

3. Dahlhaus
2. Minson
1. Libba

2. Dahlhaus
1. Libba

[Remi Moses]

Struggle to get 4 players
4. Dahl
3. Minson
2. Libba
1. Smith ( very good third term)

[Remi Moses]

It can mean several things, and you know it.
How many of his effective possessions were little dinky passes or little give and go handballs that weren't damaging, but do inflate his effectiveness %.
Compare that against how many times he had the ball as I stated I observed, where in the clear and under little or no pressure he was unable to hit a target, or not put it to our scoring advantage, or worse, actually ended up in a turnover that Essendon scored from.
Stats are silly things unless they are broken down.

Great point as it doesn't give an accurate account.
I really like Matty Boyd but he's not elite because he turns it over to often,and just doesn't hit the scoreboard enough. ( blazes to often)

[LostDoggy]

Very chilled, maybe slightly drunk. Just find it hard to believe that anyone could consider that Boyd was not in our best tonight. People jump on here every week criticising his disposal efficiency and when he does well on that score, they question what it means.

Anyhoo, it's bedtime and we've got bigger problems than Boydy. At least we know what we get with him each week.

I was slightly drunk last night and I didn't have him in my best.
He gave away more than he created, did nothing on the defensive end, showed nothing leadership wise. Yes you have to be good to get into a position to get he ball, but then what? 3m hand passes, chip kick to no real advantage and the patent Boyd blind sideways 40m snap kick out of the pack kick and hope.
I love Boyd, but he is one of those players that makes a good team great or a bad team terrible.

[Hotdog60]

4. Minson
3. Dahlhaus
2. Libba
1. Smith

2. Dahlhaus
1. Libba

[Bumper Bulldogs]

4. Libba
3. Dahlhous
2. Minson
1. Smith

2. Libba
1. Dahlhaus

the future is looking Good, but short term we have nothing to look forward to.

[LostDoggy]

4. Dahlhaus
3. Minson
2. Libba
1. Smith

2. Dahlhaus
1. Libba

[always right]

Exactly, so kick long to the advantage of the opposition in a contest and despite it resulting in a turnover you still get credited with an effective kick. That is the definition of Boyd, effective on the stat sheet, a liability as a ball user. 74% efficiency yet virtually nothing effective.

I'm not arguing that he is a great ball user but you're saying that a kick to a 50/50 contest that results in the opposition winning the contest should not be classified as an effective kick? Really?

[Ghost Dog]

I was slightly drunk last night and I didn't have him in my best.
He gave away more than he created, did nothing on the defensive end, showed nothing leadership wise. Yes you have to be good to get into a position to get he ball, but then what? 3m hand passes, chip kick to no real advantage and the patent Boyd blind sideways 40m snap kick out of the pack kick and hope.
I love Boyd, but he is one of those players that makes a good team great or a bad team terrible.

He had a shot on goal or two from memory. As some have noted, when you go to the ground, you do appreciate what he brings. More of a 'foundation' player IMO who supports a heap of good outsiders. Very important. Definitely not a ' finisher'. As noted, in a team with a few better scorers and penetrating kickers he would be a gem. Like Luke Ball, just a hard warrior. In a slow team, he can at times panic and overcompensate, with rushed kicks across the body that seem to go nowhere. Not the only senior player capable of that last night.

[Ghost Dog]

Marmo:

4. Dahlhaus
3. Minson
2. Liberatore
1. Dickson (little more than an encouragement award - our top 3 were the best by a street)

James:

2. Dahlhaus
1. Liberatore

How did you rate Campbell's game Sedat?

[Greystache]

I'm not arguing that he is a great ball user but you're saying that a kick to a 50/50 contest that results in the opposition winning the contest should not be classified as an effective kick? Really?

You think a kick that results in a turnover should? Really?

[Bulldog4life]

4. Dahlhaus
3. Minson
2. Libba
1. Smith

2. Dahlhaus
1. Libba

[G-Mo77]

4. Libba
3. Minson
2. Dahlhaus
1. Boyd

2. Libba
1. Dahlhaus

In regards to the Boyd debate, the ones bagging him for poor ball usage usually give Griffen votes all the time so it's a bit hypocritical. I couldn't believe so many gave Griff best on honors last week after turning over nearly half of his 20 odd possessions.

[always right]

You think a kick that results in a turnover should? Really?

My point is in regard to what constitutes a turnover. I consider it to be when the ball is kicked to the opposition's advantage. If the ball goes to a 50/50 contest and the opposition player simply outplays our player, should that be considered a turnover and blamed on the kicker? If so, we are going to see a hell of a lot of elite players record drastically reduced disposal efficiency.

[always right]

4. Libba
3. Minson
2. Dahlhaus
1. Boyd

2. Libba
1. Dahlhaus

In regards to the Boyd debate, the ones bagging him for poor ball usage usually give Griffen votes all the time so it's a bit hypocritical. I couldn't believe so many gave Griff best on honors last week after turning over nearly half of his 20 odd possessions.

Shhhhhh

[G-Mo77]

Shhhhhh

Whoops sorry, should I give Griff 4 votes then. :)

[Mantis]

Whoops sorry, should I give Griff 4 votes then. :)

Griffen cops the no.1 tag every week.

Boyd stats up and lets his opponent run amok while we cop a pantsing.

[always right]

Griffen cops the no.1 tag every week.

Boyd stats up and lets his opponent run amok while we cop a pantsing.

Perhaps...but he appears to be immune to any criticism on this board.

[Sedat]

He had a shot on goal or two from memory.
And missed both of these very gettable shots very poorly - the comparison to his direct opponent on the night was stark, with Jobe Watson nailing all of his, far more difficult, goal scoring opportunities

Like Luke Ball, just a hard warrior. In a slow team, he can at times panic and overcompensate, with rushed kicks across the body that seem to go nowhere. Not the only senior player capable of that last night.This is a very good comparison. Luke Ball is aware of his limitations and never tries to exceed his capabilities. He plays a specific role in a well-oiled machine, clearing a path for the likes of Swan, Pendlebury and Thomas to hurt the opposition in space. I'm afraid Boydy often tries to exceed his capabilities and gets routinely smashed to pieces against the players he wants to emulate but are far superior to him - I'm talking the likes of Hayes, Ablett, Swan, Watson, etc... Luke Ball will never, ever try to go head to head with these guys because he knows he isn't capable of matching it with them - I wish Boydy would come to the same realisation and do the same and provide more defensive steel to our midfield structure, just as he did last year against Judd and was exceptional on the night.

I was terribly disappointed in Boyd's game last night.

[always right]

On a separate matter.....stunned that The Age could not find a place in the best players for Dahlhaus. Seriously.

[Sedat]

How did you rate Campbell's game Sedat?Funnily enough, I just replied to one of your posts on him in the 'bankers and anchors' thread.

[LostDoggy]

We all know Boyd's disposal isn't great. Fact is though he's the only one working hard enough to get 30+ disposals for us.

Sure we would love for Boyd to get 20 touches and dish the ball off to a more skilled player, problem is we have no skilled midfielders. Griffen who was our best has gone completely backwards with his disposal, I would rather have Boyd kick it.

What do people want him to do? Not get the footy 30+ times? Until some of our midfielders start working as hard as Boyd then this is what has to happen.

Boyd was easily in our best 4 players last night. Yes Watson beat his opponent in the first quarter, but so did 20 other Bombers players.

4 - Dahl
3 - Boyd
2 - Libba
1 - Minson

[Doc26]

the future is looking Good, but short term we have nothing to look forward to.

BB, I hope you're right.

I keep hearing this line these days by so called media experts and feel its a let off for our current predicament.

Beyond only Dahlhaus, Libba, Wallis, maybe Roughead what other players make our future really look so bright, rather than hopeful ? Jones at a stretch but he's no Hurley and has many deficiencies to iron out to make it yet.

[Sedat]

What do people want him to do? Not get the footy 30+ times? Until some of our midfielders start working as hard as Boyd then this is what has to happen.I'd take a 15 possession Boyd game every week if it meant that Hayes/Watson/Swan/Ablett, etc.. only get it 15-20 times and have no influence on the match, like Judd last year. FFS, Watson was the best and most influential player on the ground last night by a mile and he was Boyd's head-to-head direct match-up when the game was won, orchestrated by Watson.

[LostDoggy]

I'd take a 15 possession Boyd game every week if it meant that the likes of Watson only get it 15-20 times and have no influence on the match, like Judd last year. FFS, Watson was the best and most influential player on the ground last night by a mile.

Boyd was only head to head with him for a quarter. Boyd had 10 touches himself in the first. Watson is just a far more superior player than Boyd. The form his in it's almost impossible to shut him down. Even Picken couldn't stop him last night.

If we had a damaging midfielder like a Pendlebury or Thomas then the head to head could work, problem is Boyd is the best we have.

[G-Mo77]

Griffen cops the no.1 tag every week.

Boyd stats up and lets his opponent run amok while we cop a pantsing.

So Griffen is under a lot of pressure with his disposals? Most of Boyd's are as well but Griff gets the leeway.

Hocking was tagging Griffen last night and he still got a lazy 25+ possessions, think he kicked a goal or two on top of that. Maybe Griffen should work on the defensive side of his game as well. For our best player he doesn't step up to the plate enough IMO.

[Rocco Jones]

4- Dahl
3- Minson
2- Libba

Massive gap

1- Boyd


Interesting discussion re: Boyd that goes well beyond the votes.

When it comes to Boyd as a player, I am disappointed in how he played on Jobe when the game was up for grabs (all of about 15 mins!).

When it comes to the votes it was what you expect when a very good player goes up against an elite player in a loose match up.

IMO Boyd had what I consider a 5-6/10 game but up against the 9.5 that Jobe brings it looks terrible. Sadly for us last night, a 5 or 6 out of 10 performance puts you in our best. Basically I have Boyd in the votes because his fitness and ball winning default beats anything else those outside our top 3 had on offer last night.

We obviously judge Clay and Boyd relatively. If Boyd played the same game as Clay or even Griff last night he would be nowhere near the votes.

The greater issue is of course his affect on the team. He has been like this for a long time yet he is our captain and seems to be very highly regarded within the club. Imagine your boss treated you as a golden child, pretty hard to see reason to make enormous change.

[westbulldog]

FFS, Watson was the best and most influential player on the ground last night by a mile and he was Boyd's head-to-head direct match-up when the game was won, orchestrated by Watson.[/QUOTE]
[/B]

Spot on.. The midfield was also smashed by Brisbane last week.

[GVGjr]

Back to the votes

Marmo
4 - Minson
3 - Liberatore
2 - Boyd
1 - Dahlhaus

James
2 - Liberatore
1 - Dahlhaus

[LostDoggy]

4. Minson
3. Dahlhaus
2. Libba
1. Dickson

[bornadog]

So Griffen is under a lot of pressure with his disposals? Most of Boyd's are as well but Griff gets the leeway.

Hocking was tagging Griffen last night and he still got a lazy 25+ possessions, think he kicked a goal or two on top of that. Maybe Griffen should work on the defensive side of his game as well. For our best player he doesn't step up to the plate enough IMO.

I agree, Griffen has been very poor the last month with half his kicks going to the opposition.

[bornadog]

4. Minson
3. Libba
2. Boyd
1. Higgins

2. Libba
1. Dahl

[LostDoggy]

Marmo
4. Dahlhaus
3. Minson
2. Liberatore
1. Higgins

James
2. Dahlhaus
1. Liberatore

[soupman]

4. Tom Liberatore
3. Luke Dahlhaus
2. Shaun Higgins
1. Clay Smith

2. Tom Liberatore
1. Luke Dahlhaus

[LostDoggy]

4. Will Minson (rucked well and scored most goals for us)
3. Luke Dahlhaus (always chasing and tackling when he didn't have the ball)
2. Tom Liberatore (glad he kicks further than his dad)
1. Matthew Boyd (thought he attacked the ball with more venom last night)

2. Luke Dahlhaus
1. Tom Liberatore

[Ozza]

4. Minson
3. Dahlhaus
2. Libba
1. Smith

RJ:
2. Dahl
1. Smith

[Greystache]

4. Minson
3. Dahlhaus
2. Libba
1. Smith

2. Dahlhaus
1. Libba

[LostDoggy]

4. Dahl
3. Minson
2. Libba
1.Smith

2.Dahl
1.Smith

[GVGjr]

4. Dahl
3. Minson
2. Libba
1.Smith

2.Dahl
1.Smith

Hughy, we were going well this week but you can't give Smith a vote in the James if you already have Dahlhaus and Liberatore in front of him in the Marmo.

The votes won't count unless you edit it.