Move Jones to CHB

[The Cowshed]

Liam Jones has been left to rot at CHF. Too many times he is left to battle 2 and 3 opponents because we insist on throwing a loose man back. He is being crucified for his performances but the coaching has done him no favours. They don't give him any small man support at his feet. To me he gives his all, is willing to chase and put pressure on but when you are 6'5" or whatever, it is not that easy to beat the opposition when you are outnumbered and the ball hits the ground.

To me he should be played at CHB. He is quite quick across the ground and can take contested grabs. Why not throw the team around, experiment, we have no hope of winning another game this season with the rabble that is representing us now. Panos should be brought in to play full-forward. He is a versatile type, who is safe and agile and can pinch-hit down back if we need to change things up. He deserves a game and the fact he hasn't been given one yet defies logic.

But, coaching staff, please throw him back, at least to have a look at him in that role. With his kicking issues he may well be better suited down there and gain confidence like Chris Grant did.

[bornadog]

No harm in trying him at CHB, but he would need to be tried at Willi to see how he goes. I agree he is being slaughtered and having to cope with two or three players at a time. One thing about Jones, he puts in 100% every week, he chases and doesn't give in.

[GVGjr]

To me he should be played at CHB. He is quite quick across the ground and can take contested grabs. Why not throw the team around, experiment, we have no hope of winning another game this season with the rabble that is representing us now.

I like your reasoning. Well worth a try.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

While we're at it , why not try Tommygun at CHF. Has the endurance, has a good kicking style and enough experience now to know the importance of the defensive side yet if given a licence to create and initiate play could grow another leg. At least it would give him experience of the other side of the game, attack.

[always right]

While we're at it , why not try Tommygun at CHF. Has the endurance, has a good kicking style and enough experience now to know the importance of the defensive side yet if given a licence to create and initiate play could grow another leg. At least it would give him experience of the other side of the game, attack.

Nothing to lose

[Eastdog]

Our season is shot now so I think it's worth a try. As The Cowshed said I would love to see Matthew Panos get a game and play FF and see how he goes.

[chef]

I would like to see him trialed as a KPD and see how he goes next to Williams.

[The Cowshed]

I would like to see him trialed as a KPD and see how he goes next to Williams.

You can't play Jones and Williams on the same line, too top heavy. Jones can be a good player for the future. Williams can only be serviceable at best. He is ny on 26 and has probably never appeared in our best players although I think he has improved but he just doesn't impact on a game...same old, same old...trade him back home.

[always right]

You can't play Jones and Williams on the same line, too top heavy. Jones can be a good player for the future. Williams can only be serviceable at best. He is ny on 26 and has probably never appeared in our best players although I think he has improved but he just doesn't impact on a game...same old, same old...trade him back home.

So Williams is worth very little in your eyes but you expect to get a decent trade for him:confused:

[Mantis]

So what do we do with Lake, Markovic and Williams?

[chef]

You can't play Jones and Williams on the same line, too top heavy. Jones can be a good player for the future. Williams can only be serviceable at best. He is ny on 26 and has probably never appeared in our best players although I think he has improved but he just doesn't impact on a game...same old, same old...trade him back home.

So you can't play 2 talls in the backline(plus lake who can then play the Scarlett/Fletcher role):confused:

[chef]

So Williams is worth very little in your eyes but you expect to get a decent trade for him:confused:

:DIsn't that the way it works.

[The Cowshed]

So Williams is worth very little in your eyes but you expect to get a decent trade for him:confused:

I said he's serviceable and if our football department is any good they will do their job, talk him up and get a decent trade in what could be good draft. I can live with him but you can't have too many of the same as we will continue to put out the same ordinary performances as in the past.

He can't quite cope with those big name players from top teams. We need to cultivate a list that will take us to our next premiership. He'll be 30 or 31 at best before that time arrives. But, I understand we can't delist or trade the 80% of our list that are merely not up to it or 'B' graders in one year. All these decisions will come down to what contracts the players are on but if I had a fresh sheet, you know my opinion.

[Eastdog]

Why do you think Williams hasn't been that good for us. I believe he is from a Rugby background brought up in QLD and probably picked up AFL later on.

[GVGjr]

While we're at it , why not try Tommygun at CHF. Has the endurance, has a good kicking style and enough experience now to know the importance of the defensive side yet if given a licence to create and initiate play could grow another leg. At least it would give him experience of the other side of the game, attack.

Apparently Williams has put his hand up to be tried as a forward.

[The Cowshed]

Why do you think Williams hasn't been that good for us. I believe he is from a Rugby background brought up in QLD and probably picked up AFL later on.

He has given us team balance in the past but for a CHB he doesn't impact games, doesn't win games or save games for us. Your comment about the rugby is probably the reason we should not have recruited him in the first place, granted he has been cruelled by injury. I have a lot more players in my sights before Tommy gun, my main point was that he is tradeable and you can't play Jones and Williams on the same line...that's basic footy...your side is too top heavy.

[Pickenitup]

Jones should play the rest of the year in the twos Down back
It worked for Ben Reid At the pies in 2009 only played 2 games that year
and spent the rest of the Season in The VFL.

[AndrewP6]

I said he's serviceable and if our football department is any good they will do their job, talk him up and get a decent trade in what could be good draft. I can live with him but you can't have too many of the same as we will continue to put out the same ordinary performances as in the past.


Nothing wrong with serviceable. A team can't be all Gabletts or Judds.

[The Cowshed]

Nothing wrong with serviceable. A team can't be all Gabletts or Judds.

You may accept mediocrity, I don't. We need to have matchwinning talls to win premierships (granted they don't grow on trees), I don't think Tommy will ever be one and he has held down an important position. It throws pressure onto other positions when you have a serviceable player playing in a key spot on the ground.

[AndrewP6]

You may accept mediocrity

Pardon?



We need to have matchwinning talls to win premierships (granted they don't grow on trees),

And there's the rub. If we had a better option I'm sure we'd have given Tom his marching orders.

[GVGjr]

You may accept mediocrity, I don't. We need to have matchwinning talls to win premierships (granted they don't grow on trees), I don't think Tommy will ever be one and he has held down an important position. It throws pressure onto other positions when you have a serviceable player playing in a key spot on the ground.

A lot of premierships are won with sides having a mixture of serviceable talls and match winning talls and to that end I think you are selling Williams a bit short. I think Tom can still add a lot to this side even if he is not a match winner.

[Rocco Jones]

A lot of premierships are won with sides having a mixture of serviceable talls and match winning talls and to that end I think you are selling Williams a bit short. I think Tom can still add a lot to this side even if he is not a match winner.

Yep. Tom's no star but he is a lot better than many guys who have won premierships. Definitely believe he is of the serviceable tall in a contending side bracket.

[The Cowshed]

The trade off on the Williams issue is you then have to have exceptional players with smarts around him. We don't have them. If you are happy to keep Williams and yes, you will have the odd serviceable player in a premiership team but lets trade up, draft, rebuild this list, take it from the mire and lift it to greatness. We seem to accept players are trying hard when they are pure and simply of B grade or VFL type standard.

All the following are average conveyances...Addison,Austin,Djerrkura, Grant, Higgins, Hooper, Howard, Markovic, Moles, Mulligan, Skinner, Vespremi.

Not too mention the following are too slow or will retire soon, some have been great servants...Cross, Gia, Gilbee, Hargrave Morris

There's a few names that need turning over...unfortunately, you can't do it all in one year.

[Desipura]

The trade off on the Williams issue is you then have to have exceptional players with smarts around him. We don't have them. If you are happy to keep Williams and yes, you will have the odd serviceable player in a premiership team but lets trade up, draft, rebuild this list, take it from the mire and lift it to greatness. We seem to accept players are trying hard when they are pure and simply of B grade or VFL type standard.

All the following are average conveyances...Addison,Austin,Djerrkura, Grant, Higgins, Hooper, Howard, Markovic, Moles, Mulligan, Skinner, Vespremi.

Not too mention the following are too slow or will retire soon, some have been great servants...Cross, Gia, Gilbee, Hargrave Morris

There's a few names that need turning over...unfortunately, you can't do it all in one year.

I agree in that we should be trading up. Minson and Higgins are out of contract at seasons end so it will be interesting to see what eventuates there.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

No way i would leave him a CHF, yes he goes up against 2 or 3 but why don't we send a person down to man up on them, Maybe even play a different structure like have high forwards or deep forwards and create some room. I am sick of seeing the FF & both FP players standing in a straight line form the goal square to the 25m mark straight ahead. get one standing next to the FF in the square and get the other standing 35m out on the boundary line if need be, surly this would enable the FF room to lead up and play one on one. As for the CHF (Jones) get him to run and lead up to the wings, like Nick Riewolt at StKilda, he should not go into the forward 50 as he has little confidence in kicking for goal and his player peels off and double teams out other tall forwards. Surly we have a paid forward coach that can come up with a few different things instead of have all those years go into some ones development then turn around and say go play down back as I cant think of a way to get you into the game.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I agree in that we should be trading up. Minson and Higgins are out of contract at seasons end so it will be interesting to see what eventuates there.

Need to weigh up what the pro's and con's are for these two. I can see that Minson can be replaced and he is not going to be the player we need, however with Higgins I see him as a replacement for Gia, we need someone to kick a few goals and the boys down at Willy are not burning the house down. Until they find a replacement for Gia I would hold onto Higgins. I would never play him down back as he is a free loader and it make his stats better than what the should be, I would no play him in the midfield as he is taking game time away from really potential players that we should develop,

[Cyberdoggie]

Perhaps trying these untried, experimental moves should be done at VFL level first,
unless we have totally given up being competitive this year and are willing to throw players around out of posiiton.

I just think that sends bad signals to the playing group that the coaching staff have given up and that they will play accordingly.

If Jones and other forwards are suffering from a lack of confidence then i can't see them magically improving at the dogs in our current situation.

Play them at Willy for a few weeks where the pressure is off and they don't have to worry about their game as much, try to enjoy their footy again, because you can't say that they are all poor kicks, there is definately a mental component attached and it's spreading like a disease.


Either that or tell Jones that if he runs around to the front of a contest and jumps under the ball again instead of crashing a pack he'll be traded. ;)

[stefoid]

:DIsn't that the way it works.


no, you roll three duds into a trade for an elite player to make it 'fair'

[GVGjr]

Perhaps trying these untried, experimental moves should be done at VFL level first,
unless we have totally given up being competitive this year and are willing to throw players around out of posiiton.

I just think that sends bad signals to the playing group that the coaching staff have given up and that they will play accordingly.

If Jones and other forwards are suffering from a lack of confidence then i can't see them magically improving at the dogs in our current situation.

Play them at Willy for a few weeks where the pressure is off and they don't have to worry about their game as much, try to enjoy their footy again, because you can't say that they are all poor kicks, there is definately a mental component attached and it's spreading like a disease.


Either that or tell Jones that if he runs around to the front of a contest and jumps under the ball again instead of crashing a pack he'll be traded. ;)

I guess we are away apart on this one. Jones is a player of quality who is going through a rough patch. Given we don't have to concern ourselves with finals we have the option of trying him as a defender rather than moving Roughead back there as the coach has done a few times. Rather than dropping him back to the VFL it's certainly a move I would consider. The more senior game time we can give him at the moment should benefit him in the longer run.

I think the approach you are suggesting is for player with marginal talent or issues with intensity but I think we should regard Jones vastly higher than that.

[azabob]

Jack Watts appears to be going ok when he plays down there, looks relaxed almost. Could be good mentally for Jones also.

[Greystache]

I guess we are away apart on this one. Jones is a player of quality who is going through a rough patch. Given we don't have to concern ourselves with finals we have the option of trying him as a defender rather than moving Roughead back there as the coach has done a few times. Rather than dropping him back to the VFL it's certainly a move I would consider. The more senior game time we can give him at the moment should benefit him in the longer run.

I think the approach you are suggesting is for player with marginal talent or issues with intensity but I think we should regard Jones vastly higher than that.

I agree with this approach.

If we're determined that he plays forward and forward only, then he has to switch between seniors and Williamstown depending on form/confidence obviously with a favourable slant to seniors football, but if we're going to try him in defence to help him learn and build up some confidence then it has to be in the seniors. You would only send a player back to Williamstown to play a new role if you are rebuilding him, I think Jones has shown enough ability, albeit in patches, to show he can be a quality forward in the AFL.

[SlimPickens]

I agree with this approach.

If we're determined that he plays forward and forward only, then he has to switch between seniors and Williamstown depending on form/confidence obviously with a favourable slant to seniors football, but if we're going to try him in defence to help him learn and build up some confidence then it has to be in the seniors. You would only send a player back to Williamstown to play a new role if you are rebuilding him, I think Jones has shown enough ability, albeit in patches, to show he can be a quality forward in the AFL.

I agree, the interesting part of the whole Jones debate is that when he went back to Willy he dominated Stephen Gilham (who is no mug) and the irony being that the delivery to him was much better.

The Jones bashing by some does get on my nerves a little as his effort is up and his repeat defensive efforts are bloody solid also. A spell here and there in the twos will help but he still needs to play the majority of his football this season in the firsts.

[bornadog]

The Jones bashing by some does get on my nerves a little as his effort is up and his repeat defensive efforts are bloody solid also. A spell here and there in the twos will help but he still needs to play the majority of his football this season in the firsts.

I don't think anyone has been guilty of Jones Bashing. We can all see he has plenty of talent and that he is currently struggling in his role. I agree with Stache, if we see him purely as a forward then maybe he will learn more at Willi for a month, otherwise as the OP says, lets try something different.

[SlimPickens]

I don't think anyone has been guilty of Jones Bashing. We can all see he has plenty of talent and that he is currently struggling in his role. I agree with Stache, if we see him purely as a forward then maybe he will learn more at Willi for a month, otherwise as the OP says, lets try something different.

Not purely isolating the bashing to Woof BAD, i agree that a spell down a Willy may be beneficial but we can not underestimate the importance of senior experience.

[Mantis]

I don't think anyone has been guilty of Jones Bashing. We can all see he has plenty of talent and that he is currently struggling in his role. I agree with Stache, if we see him purely as a forward then maybe he will learn more at Willi for a month, otherwise as the OP says, lets try something different.

What do you think he will/ could learn by playing for Williamstown for this amount of time?

[SlimPickens]

What do you think he will/ could learn by playing for Williamstown for this amount of time?

At least he may get better ball delivery! ;)

[Eastdog]

Jones is down on confidence right now but he has a lot of potential like I've said a few times now. He is a great contested mark and if he just improved that goal kicking then he can be an effective player. Would there really be any benefit for him playing at Williamstown. I think its important he gets senior experience. Panos is another player I like to see in the seniors.

[bornadog]

What do you think he will/ could learn by playing for Williamstown for this amount of time?

Learn to position himself better, learn to lead like a forward should, take some marks, and gain confidence. I think he is lacking in confidence and my perception is he has put himself under pressure because pre-season, he was regarded as the number one target with Hally gone.

You can say he can learn at AFL level, but frankly he is currently not helping the team due to his lack of performance.

[Eastdog]

Learn to position himself better, learn to lead like a forward should, take some marks, and gain confidence. I think he is lacking in confidence and my perception is he has put himself under pressure because pre-season, he was regarded as the number one target with Hally gone.

You can say he can learn at AFL level, but frankly he is currently not helping the team due to his lack of performance.

Maybe a few weeks in the VFL for him can't hurt to get his confidence back.

[Mantis]

Learn to position himself better, learn to lead like a forward should, take some marks, and gain confidence. I think he is lacking in confidence and my perception is he has put himself under pressure because pre-season, he was regarded as the number one target with Hally gone.

You can say he can learn at AFL level, but frankly he is currently not helping the team due to his lack of performance.

One would hope that by playing at AFL level he would be receiving better coaching and playing with better and more skilled team-mates.... Surely these factors help sway the decision to remain playing at the elite level.

Sure he isn't helping our performance, but his team-mates aren't helping his in his efforts, our skill level and efficiency going forward is the worst in the competition... As SP stated his defensive efforts are good and the more exposure he receives at the elite level can only help in his development.

And the fact is he is our no.1 target.... because the opposition place their no.1 defender on him.

[bornadog]

One would hope that by playing at AFL level he would be receiving better coaching and playing with better and more skilled team-mates.... Surely these factors help sway the decision to remain playing at the elite level.

Sure he isn't helping our performance, but his team-mates aren't helping his in his efforts, our skill level and efficiency going forward is the worst in the competition... As SP stated his defensive efforts are good and the more exposure he receives at the elite level can only help in his development.

And the fact is he is our no.1 target.... because the opposition place their no.1 defender on him.

You can only keep an out of form player in the firsts for so long. If his confidence is shot and he can't get the ball, then how long do you persist when the team is being thrashed each week and blokes like Panos are playing well at the lower level?

[Cyberdoggie]

You can only keep an out of form player in the firsts for so long. If his confidence is shot and he can't get the ball, then how long do you persist when the team is being thrashed each week and blokes like Panos are playing well at the lower level?

Exactly, time for a spell at Willy for at least a couple of weeks, hopefully he can play in some decent conditions that give him a chance to perform, ie not a wintery Williamstown gale in the bog.

If he does ok this week against collingwood and gets promoted straight back in i think that will be a bad move.


We hear the retoric from McCartney about coaching and educating players all the time.
My question is:
Has the the coach told Jones to stop running around to the front of a contest in the hope of taking an easy grab, in which he always ends up running under the flight of the ball.

You could only come to the conclusion that he hasn't because he's done it in every game this year. So obviously it's not a concern or that he has told Jones but he still hasn't worked it out yet.

Call me old fashioned but if my player was doing that i would tell him if he chose the easy way out of a contest for the remainder of a game he'd be sitting on the pine for the day regardless!

Honestly he is jumping up at the ball like he has no idea this year. Use you bloody legs to help protect and balance yourself in the air, and hit the contest or opponents to at least take them out of the way. By running to the front and missing it entirely he's gifting and instant turn over. A forwards job is to mark the ball, and if he doesn't he has to make sure that the opposition doesn't and he creates opportunity for smalls.

rant over. :)

[Sockeye Salmon]

My question is:
Has the the coach told Jones to stop running around to the front of a contest in the hope of taking an easy grab, in which he always ends up running under the flight of the ball.



Players usually run under the ball when they are a bit worried about getting belted in the back of the head.

[bornadog]

Players usually run under the ball when they are a bit worried about getting belted in the back of the head.

True, but I don't think Jones worries about that. He seems to be misjudging the flight of the ball or allowing his opponent to push him under the ball.

[Eastdog]

Sorry of going a bit off the thread topic but what do you guys think up forward of a Panos and Jones combination?

[SlimPickens]

Sorry of going a bit off the thread topic but what do you guys think up forward of a Panos and Jones combination?

Why don't you start a thread about it!

[Ozza]

True, but I don't think Jones worries about that. He seems to be misjudging the flight of the ball or allowing his opponent to push him under the ball.

Is he misjudging the flight of the ball - or is he leading and having the kicks come in to hard and high over his head?

Probably a bit of both I think.

Over time he's going to learn some more tricks - whereas at the moment - Jones leads straight at fast towards the kicker and not much else. At the moment his team mates aren't kicking the ball well enough to give him many chances. Over the whole ground we are horrendous in the 'uncontested marks' stat every week. We can't kick.

He's got a bloody hard role to play at the moment because of our absence of forward structure and overall method of moving the ball. Currently he is up on the wing until we win the ball, then runs back 80 yards towards goal and then either doubles back and leads back at the kicker, or stands inside 50 and goes up with 2 defenders - all this while having the best defender go to him.

Its an enormous task - so I refuse to label Jones as being 'out of form' when he only gets a handful of genuine opportunities per game (before he is subbed off). And as Slimpickens said, the underlying thing is his effort is there.

I'm not sold on the benefit of him playing several weeks in the VFL. Its a poor standard and he should be getting as much exposure to AFL footy - on a regular basis, not as a sub or an 'in one week, out the next' type - like he is at the moment.

[Go_Dogs]

Players usually run under the ball when they are a bit worried about getting belted in the back of the head.

Yep. I'm not sure it's necessarily being worried/scared, but certainly a confidence issue. This is why I don't mind him going back to VFL for a few weeks to get some confidence up. I remember Lake (perhaps he was Harris then) commenting that going back to the VFL really gave him the confidence to go for his marks, which he was then able to take with him back to AFL level.

[BulldogBelle]

Look what happened to Jack Watts when Melbourne moved him to defence

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Initially I was against it, but if Jones' dreadful form in the AFL continues then it's something to look at.

At the moment he's too good for VFL, and no where near it at AFL level.

[Greystache]

Initially I was against it, but if Jones' dreadful form in the AFL continues then it's something to look at.

At the moment he's too good for VFL, and no where near it at AFL level.

And he seriously is, he is in a different league compared to VFL players. Interestingly he tears up AFL listed players too, he smashed Nathan Brown yesterday and destroyed Stephen Gilham a couple of weeks ago. As I mentioned in the Williamstown game day thread, he actually receives better delivery at VFL level.

[Rocco Jones]

Look what happened to Jack Watts when Melbourne moved him to defence

Jack Watts and Liam Jones are very different players.

Jack is very slick for a tall. Moves smoothly and has poise. His role has been less CHB and more HBF for mine. I know this is sacrilegious but the offensive part of his game at HB reminds me of Granty. Thing is, Granty absolutely smokes him when it comes to ability in a physical contest.

Jones' strength is more towards the one on one contests. His disposal and poise are nowhere Watts'.


Initially I was against it, but if Jones' dreadful form in the AFL continues then it's something to look at.

At the moment he's too good for VFL, and no where near it at AFL level.


And he seriously is, he is in a different league compared to VFL players. Interestingly he tears up AFL listed players too, he smashed Nathan Brown yesterday and destroyed Stephen Gilham a couple of weeks ago. As I mentioned in the Williamstown game day thread, he actually receives better delivery at VFL level.

This is massive for mine. Posters who were pro him staying in the side mentioned just how hard the role he has to play is. I think we should just give him a crack in the senior side. The 3 rucks don't work and Ayce is behind Liam.

[LostDoggy]

And he seriously is, he is in a different league compared to VFL players. Interestingly he tears up AFL listed players too, he smashed Nathan Brown yesterday and destroyed Stephen Gilham a couple of weeks ago. As I mentioned in the Williamstown game day thread, he actually receives better delivery at VFL level.

In 3 years he will be doing this at AFL level i have no doubt. We just have to be very patient.

[Maddog37]

I agree with this. Also feel the same about Cordy.

[Desipura]

Bring Williams in and play him at CHF and play Jones at CHB. Both can pinch in the ruck.
Play Minson and Cordy, Campbell to make way.

[LostDoggy]

Bring Williams in and play him at CHF and play Jones at CHB. Both can pinch in the ruck.
Play Minson and Cordy, Campbell to make way.

Agree with the players but judging by reports Williams has less idea how to play forward than Jones does playing back.
I would perservere with Jones up forward and get him to pinch hit in the ruck without playing another 1 or 2 rucks. Gives him a chance to go to the ball and feel it. He did it last year and was ok.

[Desipura]

Agree with the players but judging by reports Williams has less idea how to play forward than Jones does playing back.
I would perservere with Jones up forward and get him to pinch hit in the ruck without playing another 1 or 2 rucks. Gives him a chance to go to the ball and feel it. He did it last year and was ok.
I agree about Williams having no idea about playing forward. I have read the coach is going to try him there therefore I proposed the idea to put Jones at chb.
Your idea makes more sense in that Jones plays at CHF. Pinch hitting in the ruck allows him to get his hands on the ball early and hopefully build his confidence throughout the game, similar to the Carlton game last year.

[chef]

Got to be worth a try as he's as effective (or maybe not even) as a forward as Bartlett was.

Maybe I'm going early but I don't think he'll make it as a forward.

[Mofra]

I thought he was one of our better forwards yesterday, laid 3 bit bumps in the first half and presented with 2nd leads often which is what he wasn't doing previously.

[soupman]

I'm just very concerned with what's going to happen when he gets the ball. He's generally fine when he marks it (although his disposal is very hit and miss), but he would have to be the worst player I've seen in open play at AFL level.

The amount of times he has picked the ball off the ground 20+ metres in the clear and still absolutely shat himself is ridiculous. He is the least composed of all our squad, and that's saying something. I fear what would happen when he picks up the footy under pressure in the back pocket.

[bulldogtragic]

If Jones could kick straight he'd be one of the best forwards in the comp, after 2,000+ days in an elite AFL training centre, he still can't kick straight or regularly make an impact. We should at least have the conversation.

[always right]

Calls by some for Jones to be dropped are rediculous. It was a bloody tough match yesterday with plenty of contests and very few deliveries into the forward 50 that weren't under pressure. Liam didn't have a great game by any means but I thought he competed hard, applied good defensive pressure and impacted contests. I don't recall any occasions where he was easily led under the ball and he generally used his body well, on one occasion earning himself a free kick and the other dishing it off the Cooney for a goal. He kicked a shocker from long range but nailed the goal you expect a forward to kick. We need to persevere and I look forward to when we can get him, Crameri and Grant all playing together.

[Mantis]

He was ok yesterday, while his kicking is still worrying he is the about no.15 on our list of concerns.

[Ghost Dog]

Professional players shouldn't miss from 20 out dead in front. Needs help with his kicking technique.

[Mofra]

Professional players shouldn't miss from 20 out dead in front. Needs help with his kicking technique.
JJ's miss was worse - our annointed small rebounder who we will rely on to kick under pressure missing a sitter that most fans in the crowd would have nailed.

[1eyedog]

Calls by some for Jones to be dropped are rediculous. It was a bloody tough match yesterday with plenty of contests and very few deliveries into the forward 50 that weren't under pressure. Liam didn't have a great game by any means but I thought he competed hard, applied good defensive pressure and impacted contests. I don't recall any occasions where he was easily led under the ball and he generally used his body well, on one occasion earning himself a free kick and the other dishing it off the Cooney for a goal. He kicked a shocker from long range but nailed the goal you expect a forward to kick. We need to persevere and I look forward to when we can get him, Crameri and Grant all playing together.

This. Jones is our best key forward option by a fair margin.

[chef]

This. Jones is our best key forward option by a fair margin.

Campbells form at the tail end of last year showed hes a better option IMO.

[Mofra]

Campbells form at the tail end of last year showed hes a better option IMO.
Not on current form though - Jones will at least get to contests, Campbell was terrible aginst West Coast while last week Jones was BOG.
I think Jones is making incremental improvements as time goes by and while he may never be a matchwinner he is the best option at the moment.

[1eyedog]

Campbells form at the tail end of last year showed hes a better option IMO.

I understand what you're saying but he is a clunk it and goal forward and lacks mobility - almost a dinosaur by today's standard. His attributes are such that he is suited to part-time forward duties and I see him as a ruckman anyway. Opposition teams are putting some time into him now and it appears that he can be nullified by releasing a mid-sized defender to spoil 2nd man up. Campbell is a good mark not a great mark and he is not a pack marker - Jones is the best mark in the team and the best pack mark in the team - plus he's mobile which helps him apply defensive pressure (which incidentally he did yesterday) If we only choose one forward over 195cm I'd prefer Jones, he has more upside and has the ability to affect more contests.

[always right]

Professional players shouldn't miss from 20 out dead in front. Needs help with his kicking technique.

I don't recall him missing any from 20m out yesterday or are you talking generally?

[The Underdog]

I thought Jones worked his arse off yesterday in a game where he often flew against 2 guys and delivery was awful. Chased hard too. Give him a couple more weeks to keep showing that sort of effort.

[craigsahibee]

Jones has to play. I like him deep in the forward line with Crameri and Grant (when avaialable) as the lead up types.
Stringer as the X factor and the smalls in Dahlhaus and Hunter should constitute our forward half.

Possibly even put Grant on the wing, play Stringer as a lead up forward to allow Campbell to drop in to the forward half to give Will a chop out in the ruck because we can't afford to go into a game with only one Ruckman.

[soupman]

I don't recall him missing any from 20m out yesterday or are you talking generally?

I think Ghost Dog is saying that no pro should miss from 20m out straight in front, and as such kicking one from there isn't really indicative of whether he is a good kick or not.

[bornadog]

I thought Jones worked his arse off yesterday in a game where he often flew against 2 guys and delivery was awful. Chased hard too. Give him a couple more weeks to keep showing that sort of effort.


Jones has to play. I like him deep in the forward line with Crameri and Grant (when avaialable) as the lead up types.
Stringer as the X factor and the smalls in Dahlhaus and Hunter should constitute our forward half.

Possibly even put Grant on the wing, play Stringer as a lead up forward to allow Campbell to drop in to the forward half to give Will a chop out in the ruck because we can't afford to go into a game with only one Ruckman.

Agree, we can do with another tall in the forward line and one in the backline. Jones is way more mobile than Campbell or Cordy, so he must stay. Either Campbell or Cordy to come in and help out in the ruck, and Talia or Williams at CHB.

[Remi Moses]

Another issue is when Liam is 20 metres out its look away time.
Watching some of the replay and yes he worked hard on occasions, but I think he chooses his moments.
Just watch Black's game and he does it consistently .
I wouldn't drop him after one game but he has to start showing something .
Ball movement and execution is a big issue going into the forward half ( particularly in the first half)

[ReLoad]

Jones did one thing nobody else on our team can get close to doing, thats smashing a pack, he hit several packs really hard and hurt a couple of North defenders, whilst thats not his objective to hurt, but they gave our small forwards a chance.

He simply has to play as nobody else can get close to doing that and its critical in a tight contested game.

I say give him a month and lets see what the results are.

[SlimPickens]

Ball movement and execution is a big issue going into the forward half ( particularly in the first half)

Pickens kick to Jones when he had burnt his opponent heading back to goal, was a great example of how our mids are killing our forwards. It had to be one of the worst kicks out of yesterday's game (and there were plenty).
Jones simply has to play to me, I would play him and Campbell in the same forward line without hesitation.

[bulldogtragic]

Pickens kick to Jones when he had burnt his opponent heading back to goal, was a great example of how our mids are killing our forwards. It had to be one of the worst kicks out of yesterday's game (and there were plenty).
Jones simply has to play to me, I would play him and Campbell in the same forward line without hesitation.

I've been wondering where to talk about Picken's kick. It was nearly as frustration as JJ. Not quite, but close.

[1eyedog]

Jones did one thing nobody else on our team can get close to doing, thats smashing a pack, he hit several packs really hard and hurt a couple of North defenders, whilst thats not his objective to hurt, but they gave our small forwards a chance.

He simply has to play as nobody else can get close to doing that and its critical in a tight contested game.

I say give him a month and lets see what the results are.

Yep no one else on our list can do this and no one else on our list can affect an aerial contest the way Jones can. He's getting to more contests and he's applying pressure when the ball is on the deck, more than can be said for some of our other players.

[LostDoggy]

Jones deserves his spot as he is the only bloke providing a contest in the air (generally taking 2 or 3 defenders in the process), he works hard when it is on the deck or in opposition hands as well so I have no issues with his determination.

For mine he does everything pretty well until he manages to get the ball in his hands, he not only lacks basic skills,; his kicking is utterly atrocious for this level (not Robinson Cruesoe there), but more importantly for mine is his lacking of awareness and poise. It is very much hot potato when Jones gets the pill in open play, and has previously been mentioned on this thread the right option, not the first option is what is critical in defence. So whilst I do think he is in our best 22.......18, I'd be loath to put him down back.

What I would love to see is for him to be given some 'development' time back in the VFL in the centre or following the ball, with a clear mandate to take the game on when he has the ball, run, bounce, evade, break tackles, he needs to lift not only these skills but his confidence with ball in hand, and he is already under too much srutiny with the public to try and hone this craft in the seniors, as of course on occassion he will get done and look like a dill (case in point Sunday, i didn't mind him playing on and trying to move the ball into the 50 quickly, but his complete lack of awareness killed him)

I'm not saying I want him to be a ball carrier, but it's unbelievable sometimes when you get a player to understand that on most occasions with a simple sidestep here or brush away there, how much more time they have to find the right option. And once he starts becoming effective with the football, he will crave it he'll lead up and get those easy uncontested 6 marks a game he so needs to build into his game because he wants the ball.

Needs a fresh approach at goal-kicking as well! Obviously the way he's set up now is not working and not looking like working anytime soon......TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT....what's that definition of insanity again, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? Stutter like Kennedy, snap it like Milne, arch around like Buddy, kick it with your wrong foot (it mightn't be!) I don't care if it's conventional as long as it's effective!

[bulldogtragic]

Jones deserves his spot as he is the only bloke providing a contest in the air (generally taking 2 or 3 defenders in the process), he works hard when it is on the deck or in opposition hands as well so I have no issues with his determination.

For mine he does everything pretty well until he manages to get the ball in his hands, he not only lacks basic skills,; his kicking is utterly atrocious for this level (not Robinson Cruesoe there), but more importantly for mine is his lacking of awareness and poise. It is very much hot potato when Jones gets the pill in open play, and has previously been mentioned on this thread the right option, not the first option is what is critical in defence. So whilst I do think he is in our best 22.......18, I'd be loath to put him down back.

What I would love to see is for him to be given some 'development' time back in the VFL in the centre or following the ball, with a clear mandate to take the game on when he has the ball, run, bounce, evade, break tackles, he needs to lift not only these skills but his confidence with ball in hand, and he is already under too much srutiny with the public to try and hone this craft in the seniors, as of course on occassion he will get done and look like a dill (case in point Sunday, i didn't mind him playing on and trying to move the ball into the 50 quickly, but his complete lack of awareness killed him)

I'm not saying I want him to be a ball carrier, but it's unbelievable sometimes when you get a player to understand that on most occasions with a simple sidestep here or brush away there, how much more time they have to find the right option. And once he starts becoming effective with the football, he will crave it he'll lead up and get those easy uncontested 6 marks a game he so needs to build into his game because he wants the ball.

Needs a fresh approach at goal-kicking as well! Obviously the way he's set up now is not working and not looking like working anytime soon......TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT....what's that definition of insanity again, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? Stutter like Kennedy, snap it like Milne, arch around like Buddy, kick it with your wrong foot (it mightn't be!) I don't care if it's conventional as long as it's effective!

Welcome to WOOF, excellent first post. Sounds like something to think about.

[josie]

I thought Jones tried hard all game on Sunday too. However if you are a forward and cannot reliably kick goals then thats a BIG problem. As Jones does not have a lot of endurance this limits where we can play him. I cannot see us trying to play him in backline - smacks of desperation to me and if he cannot kick straight then all he will do is turn the ball over from the backline.

Stringer has got the kicking yips too - after being a very good kick for goal in his first few games last year. Is inaccurate kicking a disease?

I know North were even more woeful than we were, however they also had considerably more opportunities.

Kanga's goals were more direct from centre, whereas a lot of ours were scrappy, hard at it goals from the wings. They also had more tall forwards who can take a contested mark (something we have not had seemingly forever) and/or or lead well (Oh Barry - can we clone you with your mid/late 20's body + your 30 y.o. maturity?).

[Webby]

I think a combination of improved delivery from midfield and the penny dropping with Jones that "playing in front" is a golden rule of the game for good reason, might actually prove a turning point for the kid. Hopefully Saturday April 5th was the beginning of a career turning point.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Played well because he was prepared to keep moving at all times and not stand still.

The challenge is to find the consistency both mentally and physically to do it every week. In the past, even as recent as last year, he had a few games where he played really well and then dropped away soon after. IIRC he kicked 4 last year v Richmond too?

Here's hoping the penny has in fact dropped.

[F'scary]

... (Oh Barry - can we clone you with your mid/late 20's body + your 30 y.o. maturity?).

Wasn't that the maturity he showed to Shtaker?