What we need to do for 2013

[bornadog]

I appreciate there is a thread for delistings etc but this thread is about an overhaul of the club:

President and the board

Need to find a passionate Bulldogs rich businessman who can bring in more sponsorship and connections. One that will stand up for our club and take us to the next level. Half the board to retire and new blood to come in.

We want all home games at Eithad and we must build the brand in the Western Suburbs, and build it aggressively.

We want the club to stand up to the AFL and not be bullied around. We have existed at the Western Reserve since 1883 and we are here to stay (in the AFL)

Coaching

Need a very good assistant to Macca who can help with strategy on game day and be his right hand man. Must seriously look at the whole coaching panel under Macca. He can't do it on his own.

Head of Football

Time for a change here as well. He must share the blame of our failure to make a Grand Final in the past 5 years when we had our chances. Really should have been dismissed at the end of last year.

Recruiters

They have failed us, we need to search far and wide and try to get one of the best to the Kennel.

Players

We need to cut deep at the end of the year, so here are my delistings:

Vez, DJ, Moles, Gilbee, Hargrave, Hooper, Mulligan, Skinner and if I had my way, Addison and perhaps Gia. Hill is in an unfortunate situation as he hasn't played senior footy yet and the other talls are ahead of him, so Hill goes as well.

That would be at least 10 players. These guys are not going to take us to another level so we need fresh blood. I would draft kids as well as throwing some big money at a ready made player, not one on the fringe but I mean a good player that is in the best 22 for a top eight team.

I would also put on notice that 2013 is the last year for Murphy, Cross, Boyd. I would reassess Morris and Cooney to see if they are up to the rigours of AFL for 2013.

If this year is a refresh, next year must be a rebuild.


Your thoughts are welcome on 2013 and beyond.

[w3design]

I think DJ got a three or four year deal to come from Geelong .Sherman in my opinion has to go no heart and poor skills. Vez would give him one more year and i think Hill can play just needs to get a go at seniors to show what he has .

Howard needs to be traded for what we can get. Wasted first RND pick yet again.

Agree with nearly almost everything else .

Well said Bornadog.

[soupman]

I think DJ got a three or four year deal to come from Geelong .Sherman in my opinion has to go no heart and poor skills. Vez would give him one more year and i think Hill can play just needs to get a go at seniors to show what he has .

Howard needs to be traded for what we can get. Wasted first RND pick yet again.

Agree with nearly almost everything else .

Well said Bornadog.

Nope. He got a two year deal. He has said as such in a newspaper piece.

[The Cowshed]

Nope. He got a two year deal. He has said as such in a newspaper piece.

Whoever offered him the contract should be sacked.

The recruiting has been our major let down. We have continually recruited the same type of 'B" grade players that will take us nowhere. Maybe any spare money we have should be made poaching a Stephen Wells or the like.

[Eastdog]

2nd and 3rd picks in the draft. If you have a good recruiter there potential stars. eg: Collingwood. Carlton have a lot of 1st round picks but they seem to be going backwards.

[The Cowshed]

We did headhunt Scott Clayton to the recruiting chair some years ago and he nearly got his group through to a grand final but, he also cost us a premiership with his failure to consistently hit the mark with his first round choices. Hopefully, we can snare someone who's a bit more savvy in that department.

[chef]

We should have grabbed Matt Rendell while we had the chance.

[azabob]

Are we going a bit early on saying Dalyrimple isn't up to it? He has had 3 drafts. It is widely suggested he was over ruled with the Smith selection.

For posters suggesting we poach Wells from Geelong, we are no chance. He turned gold coast down before they approached Clayton and secondly he would be relishing the chance to rebuild the Geelong list.

[LostDoggy]

Doubt Dalrymple was overruled as anyone in the same position would resign if he isn't used to do the job he is employed for.

[LostDoggy]

I'm very worried about the coaching position. Think Macca is too inexperienced to run it well without time passing and too old to have an experienced coach as his football manager.

[AndrewP6]

I'm very worried about the coaching position. Think Macca is too inexperienced to run it well without time passing and too old to have an experienced coach as his football manager.

Me too.

[Rocco Jones]

Players

We need to cut deep at the end of the year, so here are my delistings:

Vez, DJ, Moles, Gilbee, Hargrave, Hooper, Mulligan, Skinner and if I had my way, Addison and perhaps Gia. Hill is in an unfortunate situation as he hasn't played senior footy yet and the other talls are ahead of him, so Hill goes as well.


I agree. Too bad Gia is contracted for next year and Dylan just sign a two-year contract.

I really don't like bagging players like Addison but I just don't get it. The only guys he can play on are the guys we should be trying to expose for rebound.

[Maddog37]

I reckon you are being panic merchants.

[GVGjr]

Are we going a bit early on saying Dalyrimple isn't up to it? He has had 3 drafts. It is widely suggested he was over ruled with the Smith selection.


Dalrymple is worth sticking with. I think he has tried to pick players that fit our perceived needs rather than just the best players available. I think he has a good eye for talent but needs some more assistance. With Jason McCartney on board he should have a better run at it.

[GVGjr]

Doubt Dalrymple was overruled as anyone in the same position would resign if he isn't used to do the job he is employed for.

I don't think it's as clear cut as that. Most recruiters have to compromise.
Eade might not have gotten that involved in the recruitment process because he had Clayton for so long but I think he should have.

[Rocco Jones]

I reckon you are being panic merchants.

'Panic' involves acting illogically. Not saying I agree 100% with bornadog (pretty close to it FWIW) but in what sense is he being illogical? I don't believe he is beign irrational or purely emotional, he has back up all of his beliefs with logical and reasoning.

[LostDoggy]

I reckon you are being panic merchants.
Yes All is going well.

[LostDoggy]

I don't think it's as clear cut as that. Most recruiters have to compromise.
Eade might not have gotten that involved in the recruitment process because he had Clayton for so long but I think he should have.

Too me that says you don't trust me then why employ me.
I understand compromise but it's Dalrymples call and his head if the call is bad.

[chef]

Too me that says you don't trust me then why employ me.
I understand compromise but it's Dalrymples call and his head if the call is bad.

I guess it comes down to which philosophy we are following, needs or best available.

[LostDoggy]

At risk of being the "HairyMidget broken record" from last year. What about getting Peter German into the coaches box next to Macca? Phenomenal coach, knows the kids well, great football mind. Would love to see what he'd do for a League team one day.

[Maddog37]

'Panic' involves acting illogically. Not saying I agree 100% with bornadog (pretty close to it FWIW) but in what sense is he being illogical? I don't believe he is beign irrational or purely emotional, he has back up all of his beliefs with logical and reasoning.

It's just so early in the McCartney era. I think people have unrealistic Expectations or just want to be able to say "I told you so back in round 13 2012" with a link showing their brilliance.

By the way Rocco, this is football, what does logic and reason have to do with it?:D

[anfo27]

I reckon you are being panic merchants.

agree with you mad dog.

[Eastdog]

I think a coach can only do so much in getting the message across to the players. It comes down to the quality of the players at the end of the day. Macca I think we can't judge him too early as we need to give him the chance to develop our team again.

[Mantis]

I don't think it's as clear cut as that. Most recruiters have to compromise.
Eade might not have gotten that involved in the recruitment process because he had Clayton for so long but I think he should have.

How might have Eade got more involved?

[The Pie Man]

Would you ever welcome Plough back as an assistant?

He fits the criteria - who else is out there? Maybe Ratten once he gets let go at season's end (that has to happen surely)

[GVGjr]

Too me that says you don't trust me then why employ me.
I understand compromise but it's Dalrymples call and his head if the call is bad.

This is not my understanding of what a recruiting manager is supposed to do.
Assess the best players in the land and rank them accordingly is primarily the position.

The football department (including the list manager) then works through the likely club de-listings and looks to the list to work out how they can fill the gaps. If the football department says that they need player B not player A then that is the decision. It's the same if they decide to trade the picks for established players.

Our recruiting manager is not the list manager and therefore just presents the players in the order he believes they belong. He's a main player at the table and his opinions are valuable but the process is not just handed over to him to select every player he wants.

[GVGjr]

How might have Eade got more involved?
List management decisions, contracts and rookie list promotions. He had a good recruiter and list manager in Clayton but I think he could have added some value with Dalrymple in his first season.

[bornadog]

I reckon you are being panic merchants.

I have been waiting for my club for a very long time to play in a granny. I see an ageing team and youngsters who are learning. Lets bite the bullet, delist 10 players and go for it.

[Maddog37]

I agree but you need to give the new coach twelve months or two years to cull those he can't work with.

[Topdog]

I agree but you need to give the new coach twelve months or two years to cull those he can't work with.

A good coach knows within a month who he can work with and who he wants. I'm sure Macca already knows it.

Lets not keep making the same mistakes and finally cut into the list. How many 10 goal hidings do we need before we do something.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

An interesting debate will be had with this one, however I think we have enough to work with and the right selections have been had in the past few years.

A, I think we have over drafted tall's and for good reason, we had none, they take the longest of all players to come on. We have had them on the list for a few years and got them into senior footy and the new coaching staff can cut and sort out as they need to here.

B, It's always easier to pick up a midfielder and they develop a lot quicker than the tall's, with the likes of Libba, Wallis, D/house, Smith we have the starting of a good midfield group that will be around for a long time

What we need is to get a couple of good ball carriers that can play off 1/2 back and deliver into the forward 50. I think we all have seen the good in Cordy, Jones, Roughy & Grant we just need to give them a couple of years. (Yes we have seen the bad also)

I cant help but think the loss of a fit Cooney has really hurt us and that's not anyones fault, not many sides can loss a quality player like this and keep going.

If we trade for two good back flankers and draft a few speedy kids we should be back in a few years. I think we will need to just fill a few gaps with the upcoming draft but they need to ensure they keep one eye on the list as they cant afford to get it wrong now as they will long term with lack of membership and poor on field performances.

[Sedat]

If we trade for two good back flankers and draft a few speedy kids we should be back in a few years. I think we will need to just fill a few gaps with the upcoming draft but they need to ensure they keep one eye on the list as they cant afford to get it wrong now as they will long term with lack of membership and poor on field performances.Sydney traded for Mattner and Shaw and both have proven to be very astute trades to bolster their run and carry capacity off half back. The jury is still very much out on Howard, and Wood is still to convince long-term, so I'd like also us to target specific players from other clubs to add to our arsenal in this area. Not suggesting him specifically but someone like a Daniel Connors type who will be able to provide immediate returns in an urgent area of need without having to pay the farm.

[FrediKanoute]

Sydney traded for Mattner and Shaw and both have proven to be very astute trades to bolster their run and carry capacity off half back. The jury is still very much out on Howard, and Wood is still to convince long-term, so I'd like also us to target specific players from other clubs to add to our arsenal in this area. Not suggesting him specifically but someone like a Daniel Connors type who will be able to provide immediate returns in an urgent area of need without having to pay the farm.

After last night I think I've seen enough of Howard to make a call, average, will be delisted in 2-3 years time having scrambled around 30 to 50 games. He is not AFL standard.

[Mantis]

After last night I think I've seen enough of Howard to make a call, average, will be delisted in 2-3 years time having scrambled around 30 to 50 games. He is not AFL standard.

Yeah he doesn't look up to AFL standard, especially when he has to play in defence or defend.

[Mantis]

List management decisions, contracts and rookie list promotions. He had a good recruiter and list manager in Clayton but I think he could have added some value with Dalrymple in his first season.

I'm sure Eade had his say, but one would think that the head of the footy deptartment had the most say in these decisions.

[BulldogBelle]

Yeah he doesn't look up to AFL standard, especially when he has to play in defence or defend.


Another first round pick - that we took to fill a 'future' gap

We should take best available in the draft

And fill gaps with trades, rookie listed and state league players

Pity we didnt take Sam Reid (Sydney one) in that draft

[Dancin' Douggy]

Another first round pick - that we took to fill a 'future' gap

We should take best available in the draft

And fill gaps with trades, rookie listed and state league players

Pity we didnt take Sam Reid (Sydney one) in that draft

'Pity' is the understatement of the decade.
It's not just a pity, it's an outrage of blood boiling proportions.
:mad::mad::mad:

[Hot_Doggies]

We need quality draft picks.

I think Minson should be shopped around.

[Eastdog]

We need quality draft picks.

I think Minson should be shopped around.

Minson of course this year taking the responsibility of being the #1 ruck man. Some people say Minson should have been delisted a long time ago but his season hasn't been terrible so far.

[Hot_Doggies]

Minson of course this year taking the responsibility of being the #1 ruck man. Some people say Minson should have been delisted a long time ago but his season hasn't been terrible so far.


Exactly. He now has value, the more early picks we can get the better.

[Eastdog]

Exactly. He now has value, the more early picks we can get the better.

It essential that at this year's draft we draft well and most importantly develop these draftees. There are a lot of hidden gems in the 2nd and 3rd rounds of the draft but you have to know what your looking for. Collingwood did very well there.

[LostDoggy]

Let's just delist 13 players. Great idea. I'd go the extra step though, and get rid of some of the kids who haven't quite made it yet, because realistically, we just can't wait. All these years without a flag, something needs to be done right now, this very minute, and we can't afford to wait for the likes of Cordy, Wallis, Jones, etc.

Get rid of Grant — no heart. Get rid of Lake — too many brain fades. Shaggy is done. Cooney's knee is shot. Panos can't get a game. Get rid of him. Roughead wears too much shoulder strapping and can't be a full forward, so get rid of him as well. Minson had his chance and he's gotta go.

Sack half the board, they're all useless. Get rid of the recruiting manager. Get rid of some of the obviously overpaid staff, who are claiming salaries but haven't delivered the appropriate results yet. Get rid of that Macca bloke, because he's just not bubbly enough.

You all sound like gooses, quite honestly.

[Desipura]

Let's just delist 13 players. Great idea. I'd go the extra step though, and get rid of some of the kids who haven't quite made it yet, because realistically, we just can't wait. All these years without a flag, something needs to be done right now, this very minute, and we can't afford to wait for the likes of Cordy, Wallis, Jones, etc.

Get rid of Grant — no heart. Get rid of Lake — too many brain fades. Shaggy is done. Cooney's knee is shot. Panos can't get a game. Get rid of him. Roughead wears too much shoulder strapping and can't be a full forward, so get rid of him as well. Minson had his chance and he's gotta go.

Sack half the board, they're all useless. Get rid of the recruiting manager. Get rid of some of the obviously overpaid staff, who are claiming salaries but haven't delivered the appropriate results yet. Get rid of that Macca bloke, because he's just not bubbly enough.

You all sound like gooses, quite honestly.

I do not see the point of this post, posters have given their reasons for the above, I think you need to show a bit more respect to alot of the knowledgeable posters on here.
Just because you do not agree with them, does not mean you have to call people gooses.

[LostDoggy]

Exactly. He now has value, the more early picks we can get the better.

Cos Roughead and Campbell are so much better.
I have no confidence at the moment these 2 can perform half as well as Minson has this year.

[LostDoggy]

I do not see the point of this post, posters have given their reasons for the above, I think you need to show a bit more respect to alot of the knowledgeable posters on here.
Just because you do not agree with them, does not mean you have to call people gooses.

Pot, this is kettle. Over.

[Eastdog]

I do not see the point of this post, posters have given their reasons for the above, I think you need to show a bit more respect to alot of the knowledgeable posters on here.
Just because you do not agree with them, does not mean you have to call people gooses.

Well said Desipura. It's freedom of speech. I may not agree with what certain posters say but I allow them to voice there opinions on WOOF.

[G-Mo77]

I have been waiting for my club for a very long time to play in a granny. I see an ageing team and youngsters who are learning. Lets bite the bullet, delist 10 players and go for it.

So you'd be going against what you've said all season and do a complete bottom out?

Look I'm happy to do it. We don't have enough talent in the VFL to challenge some of our senior brigade and a start from scratch in a supposed deep draft would be a step in the right direction.

*Moves to official list*

I'll try and find 10 spots to free up.

Delist

DJ
Gilbee
Hargrave (Retired)
Hooper
Moles
Mulligan
Skinner

Trade
Sherman - Cut our losses. Find someone who'll take on this guy.
Vez - There still may be some interest there from outside the club.

FA departure
Minson - Can't see him staying when he can just walk away to a better team. If I were him I'd go as well after the way he was treated after Mothergate.

Tap on the shoulder
Gia
Cross

Both are under contract though so our hands are tied up in this situation.

Rookies
Now it's been said around here that Campbell has got a contract in place. Austin may move up to the senior list and I don't think we can re-rookie Johannisen again next year. Do we keep him on?

Conclusion
Pretty unrealistic I would think but I guess it's doable. I think we'll have Gia and Cross next year and I think we'll elevate Campbell and Austin, not sure on JJ though? Minson IMO will go so that may save a name or give us another pick. We'll probably cut enough into the list to get 5 picks, 6 with a Minson departure. I'd be really disappointed if we had less than 5 picks in the next draft.

[Greystache]

Interesting topic

Delist

DJ
Gilbee
Hargrave (Retired)
Hooper
Moles
Mulligan
Skinner
Vez

Trade (one or all)

Grant- His time at three Dogs is up
Williams- Someone might take him on
Howard- Adelaide or Port might be interested

Rookie upgrade

Campbell
Austin

JJ can be re-rookied for a third year.

We should be able to find a trade partner for Grant, and perhaps one for one of Howard our Williams,so that will be 10 out, 2 upgraded rookies, and 8 spots to be filled at the draft and trade table.

[G-Mo77]

I thought it was 2 years on the rookie list. If it's 3 then JJ stays on for a third. I think he's got potential.

We're on the same page with delistings and I doubt there will be to many arguments from others.

In regards to trading.

I think Grant is safe, by the sounds of it they're putting some extra time into him which shows they want him in the future while it's disappointing to hear about his game on the weekend I thought he was putting together some really good performances at AFL level before he vanished.

I'd also consider throwing feelers out for Williams. Austin, Roberts and hopefully Talia will become good options in Williams' position, maybe he's expendable for the right price.

Wouldn't try and trade Sherman Greystache?

[Rocco Jones]

Wanted to mention an observation about Howard, guess this is the place to bring it up.

Whenever Howard is beside his opponent and his opponent gains the ball, Howard's lack of explosive pace/excerlation/agility/effort/concentration (seems a combo of at least a few of them) is extremely poor. It almost looks like he has pinged his hammy the moment he tries to excerlate.

I know he isn't quick but his movement around the ground otherwise is nowhere near as poor. It's a massive issue in his game IMO.

[Greystache]

I thought it was 2 years on the rookie list. If it's 3 then JJ stays on for a third. I think he's got potential.

We're on the same page with delistings and I doubt there will be to many arguments from others.

In regards to trading.

I think Grant is safe, by the sounds of it they're putting some extra time into him which shows they want him in the future while it's disappointing to hear about his game on the weekend I thought he was putting together some really good performances at AFL level before he vanished.

I'd also consider throwing feelers out for Williams. Austin, Roberts and hopefully Talia will become good options in Williams' position, maybe he's expendable for the right price.

Wouldn't try and trade Sherman Greystache?

A couple of years ago the rule was changed allowing rookies to be offered a third year. JJ is worth another year and I doubt another club would try to poach him with an offer of a spot on their main list through draft.

I don't think Grant's break recently was as positive as many think. I believe it was more of a break to think about whether he really wants to be an AFL footballer and whether he he prepared to start training at the level required. I think he'll be gone at year's end.

I don't think Sherman holds any value on the open market,we may as well keep him.

[Rocco Jones]

A couple of years ago the rule was changed allowing rookies to be offered a third year. JJ is worth another year and I doubt another club would try to poach him with an offer of a spot on their main list through draft.


I didn't know that. For a rookie to be eleveated there needs to be two things:
1- we believe he is good enough to be on the senior list and 2- our 'intelligence' (as oxymoronic as it sounds) believes no other club is interested.

I think any issue we have had in the past is elevating rookies when only one of those was covered (also, lack of said intelligence). JJ is rookie list material for mine. Bad luck if a club rates him higher.



I don't think Grant's break recently was as positive as many think. I believe it was more of a break to think about whether he really wants to be an AFL footballer and whether he he prepared to start training at the level required. I think he'll be gone at year's end.


Christians have a saying about idel hands.


I don't think Sherman holds any value on the open market,we may as well keep him.

That's it. Trading doesn't normally work out well fo a club wanting to get rid of a player. Trading normally works well for clubs looking for 'moneyball' types who are on the outter at their club.

[bornadog]

So you'd be going against what you've said all season and do a complete bottom out?

Not going against what I said all season at all? I like to give young players a go before making my mind up about them. The players I have listed have had a chance but are just not good enough to take us to the next level.

[bulldogsman]

Wanted to mention an observation about Howard, guess this is the place to bring it up.

Whenever Howard is beside his opponent and his opponent gains the ball, Howard's lack of explosive pace/excerlation/agility/effort/concentration (seems a combo of at least a few of them) is extremely poor. It almost looks like he has pinged his hammy the moment he tries to excerlate.

I know he isn't quick but his movement around the ground otherwise is nowhere near as poor. It's a massive issue in his game IMO.

I thought last year the club had it right by developing him as a hard running wingman and I still see it as his only chance at making it. He struggles against the quick forwards and he's not good in the air. I'm convinced he won't make it as a defender, I do hope I'm proven wrong however.

[Remi Moses]

This thread is way over the top.
Christian Howard traded after 15 games? Rediculous
Good drafting , good coaching, good development is imperative .

[bornadog]

This thread is way over the top.
Christian Howard traded after 15 games? Rediculous
Good drafting , good coaching, good development is imperative .

I certainly haven't advocated Howard to be delisted/traded.

[Remi Moses]

I certainly haven't advocated Howard to be delisted/traded.

Other posters have and it's totally idiotic .
If we delist and trade like some here are advocating we will get flogged every week next season. Then the same posters will find that panic button again and have the coach in the gun.
The club's rebuilding not "refreshing" as David Smorgon put it

[Eastdog]

While certainly we need to cull our list at the end of the season we have to make sure we don't cull too much or too little. Howard is still young and needs more games.

[Remi Moses]

While certainly we need to cull our list at the end of the season we have to make sure we don't cull too much or too little. Howard is still young and needs more games.

Hell, the panic button's been pushed hard on here !
Just imagining the button of panic proportions on Big Footy Bulldog board:eek:

[bulldogsman]

This thread is way over the top.
Christian Howard traded after 15 games? Rediculous
Good drafting , good coaching, good development is imperative .

I don't want him traded, I think he has some hope as a winger or maybe a half forward.

[Greystache]

Other posters have and it's totally idiotic .
If we delist and trade like some here are advocating we will get flogged every week next season. Then the same posters will find that panic button again and have the coach in the gun.
The club's rebuilding not "refreshing" as David Smorgon put it

So in what role do you see Howard making an impact at AFL and what attributes do you think he can bring to the team?

[azabob]

Jay Clark just tweeted:

@ClarkyHeraldSun: Dogs list manager Jason McCartney says the club will target quality ball-users at this year's draft. Need some polish going inside 50m.

Good news!

[bulldogsman]

Jay Clark just tweeted:

@ClarkyHeraldSun: Dogs list manager Jason McCartney says the club will target quality ball-users at this year's draft. Need some polish going inside 50m.

Good news!

What about speed?

[Remi Moses]

So in what role do you see Howard making an impact at AFL and what attributes do you think he can bring to the team?

Off half back or wing, his kicking is very good.He has to improve his intensity and effort obviously. We judge young players to quickly and make assessments on what, 15 games!
Also young players have good games and then have poor games.
Mitch Wallis was being questioned on here early this season and last. That's gone quiet

[Eastdog]

Off half back or wing, his kicking is very good.He has to improve his intensity and effort obviously. We judge young players to quickly and make assessments on what, 15 games!
Also young players have good games and then have poor games.
Mitch Wallis was being questioned on here early this season and last. That's gone quiet

We need to reserve judgement of these younger players until they have played enough games. Someone like Higgins we can judge as he has been in the system for a long time. Boyd once upon a time ago when he started wasn't that great and then he eventually become good. Dane Swan from Collingwood is another one that started not fantastic but then became great later on.

[always right]

What about speed?

Be ideal to have both but if you had to prioritise you'd take quality ball use every time.

[LostDoggy]

Be ideal to have both but if you had to prioritise you'd take quality ball use every time.

The elephant in the room is our lack of senior stars. Gia, Higgins, Boyd and Cross. I'm not questioning their endevour but when was the last time anyone of them was referred to by any commentator as "starring" in a game, looking "really dangerous", "carving up" the opposition?????? They all (mostly) get plenty of ball but lack of actually dangerous disposal is killing us in death by 1000 cuts. The only potential star we have left is Griffin and he just gets the bejeepers kicked out of him nowadays as he's the only guy we've got that needs to be monitored outside of the poor kids.

Quality ball use yes, but we need find 2 or 3 quickly developing superstars in the making at this draft. As much as I love these Doggies, I can't think of a single other team, except Port, without an A+ grade player :eek: (apologies to Griff who is A in my opinion)

They better bring a chainsaw along to the list review meeting. All is before us at the draft.

[bulldogsman]

Be ideal to have both but if you had to prioritise you'd take quality ball use every time.

Agree, but it would be nice to have both.

Some players with a bit of X factor would be nice.

[Eastdog]

Agree, but it would be nice to have both.

Some players with a bit of X factor would be nice.

Players with an X factor is something we just don't have. Someone that can be a match winner.

[always right]

The elephant in the room is our lack of senior stars. Gia, Higgins, Boyd and Cross. I'm not questioning their endevour but when was the last time anyone of them was referred to by any commentator as "starring" in a game, looking "really dangerous", "carving up" the opposition?????? They all (mostly) get plenty of ball but lack of actually dangerous disposal is killing us in death by 1000 cuts. The only potential star we have left is Griffin and he just gets the bejeepers kicked out of him nowadays as he's the only guy we've got that needs to be monitored outside of the poor kids.

Quality ball use yes, but we need find 2 or 3 quickly developing superstars in the making at this draft. As much as I love these Doggies, I can't think of a single other team, except Port, without an A+ grade player :eek: (apologies to Griff who is A in my opinion)

They better bring a chainsaw along to the list review meeting. All is before us at the draft.

I assume that every club is on the lookout for a "developing superstar"....not sure why you wouldn't:) Someone like Pendlebury would be handy....or someone like a fit Adam Cooney:(

[Maddog37]

Wanted to mention an observation about Howard, guess this is the place to bring it up.

Whenever Howard is beside his opponent and his opponent gains the ball, Howard's lack of explosive pace/excerlation/agility/effort/concentration (seems a combo of at least a few of them) is extremely poor. It almost looks like he has pinged his hammy the moment he tries to excerlate.

I know he isn't quick but his movement around the ground otherwise is nowhere near as poor. It's a massive issue in his game IMO.

That sounds like OP or some other groin issue. Maybe an injury?

[SlimPickens]

That sounds like OP or some other groin issue. Maybe an injury?

Or he's adapting to a different body shape. With the amount of leg work all our players did over the preseason I'm not surprised they seem/are slower.

[anfo27]

I assume that every club is on the lookout for a "developing superstar"....not sure why you wouldn't:) Someone like Pendlebury would be handy....or someone like a fit Adam Cooney:(

most posters would not be happy with Pendlebury. Apparently running the 100m in under 10 sec is a pre-requisite & pendles doesn't come anywhere near that.

[Rocco Jones]

Jay Clark just tweeted:

@ClarkyHeraldSun: Dogs list manager Jason McCartney says the club will target quality ball-users at this year's draft. Need some polish going inside 50m.

Good news!


What about speed?

I'm a strong believer that foot skills + sound decision making makes sides 'faster' than sides with just pure leg speed.

Of course it is good to have leg speed but if your foot skills are there, you can just top it up with a speedster or two. Does not work the other way around IMO i.e team full of speed with only 1-2 guys who can kick/good decision makers.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Howard is still obsessed by choosing the safe option with his kicks too. Those dinky little 15m passes do not hurt the opposition -- it just provides more time for them to set their structures up.

I'd like to see Howard actually run and take the game on. He isn't quick, but he should be aiming to receive the ball by hand as much as possible so that he can distribute the ball by foot. He rarely uses his 'peg' to advantage, and he certainly cannot defend.

[Rocco Jones]

most posters would not be happy with Pendlebury. Apparently running the 100m in under 10 sec is a pre-requisite & pendles doesn't come anywhere near that.

Yep. Pure leg speed is overrated IMO. Foot skills, sound decision making, clean hands off the deck and instant excerlation (I know that's leg speed too!) are much more important that being a fast runner.

[Rocco Jones]

Howard is still obsessed by choosing the safe option with his kicks too. Those dinky little 15m passes do not hurt the opposition -- it just provides more time for them to set their structures up.

I'd like to see Howard actually run and take the game on. He isn't quick, but he should be aiming to receive the ball by hand as much as possible so that he can distribute the ball by foot. He rarely uses his 'peg' to advantage, and he certainly cannot defend.

I think 1D players (clear strength and not much else) battling for their spot can often feel pressure when trying to execute that strength. If they stuff it up, they know they have nothing else.

Say Panos. People he can warrant selection even if he gets 2-3 chances due to his goal kicking (which I agree with due to the lack of quality options anyway). If he gets a chance, it will be interesting to see how he goes with the pressure.

[chef]

I'm a strong believer that foot skills + sound decision making makes sides 'faster' than sides with just pure leg speed.

Of course it is good to have leg speed but if your foot skills are there, you can just top it up with a speedster or two. Does not work the other way around IMO i.e team full of speed with only 1-2 guys who can kick/good decision makers.

We were a quick side a couple of seasons ago because of this. It's amazing how crap we have become by foot in such a short period of time.

[Rocco Jones]

We were a quick side a couple of seasons ago because of this. It's amazing how crap we have become by foot in such a short period of time.

I think the Cats are a good example of how ball movement makes you faster than leg speed in footy.

[Greystache]

Off half back or wing, his kicking is very good.He has to improve his intensity and effort obviously. We judge young players to quickly and make assessments on what, 15 games!
Also young players have good games and then have poor games.
Mitch Wallis was being questioned on here early this season and last. That's gone quiet

I've yet to see him show anything to suggest he can play half back at either AFL or VFL level. When he's played there he's been a defensive liability yet still provided little offensive rebound. He's a poor one on one defender, is weak overhead, and despite the huge wraps on him as a draftee his kicking is average.

His only chance is as a winger, but given he's not quick, can't break lines with run and carry, and isn't a damaging ball user, we're basically trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole because we don't have any other choice.

It was a rediculous drafting choice at the time and 3 years later it still looks to to be. The point of trading a player is that you off load a player that won't make it to a club that's thinks he will. That is Howard.

[chef]

I've yet to see him show anything to suggest he can play half back at either AFL or VFL level. When he's played there he's been a defensive liability yet still provided little offensive rebound. He's a poor one on one defender, is weak overhead, and despite the huge wraps on him as a draftee his kicking is average.

His only chance is as a winger, but given he's not quick, can't break lines with run and carry, and isn't a damaging ball user, we're basically trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole because we don't have any other choice.

It was a rediculous drafting choice at the time and 3 years later it still looks to to be. The point of trading a player is that you off load a player that won't make it to a club that's thinks he will. That is Howard.

Only problem is who would want him.

I must admit I'm not a fan and haven't seen anything so far that makes me want him on our list next year. Is he contracted past the end of this season?

[bulldogsman]

I'm a strong believer that foot skills + sound decision making makes sides 'faster' than sides with just pure leg speed.

Of course it is good to have leg speed but if your foot skills are there, you can just top it up with a speedster or two. Does not work the other way around IMO i.e team full of speed with only 1-2 guys who can kick/good decision makers.

Again I agree, I think the No 1 priority should be on skills and decision making. However I think pace should also be a priority especially in our forwards. A combination of both would obviously be ideal.

I do not want someone who has poor ball use, I was very adamant on that last year.

[Greystache]

Only problem is who would want him.

I must admit I'm not a fan and haven't seen anything so far that makes me want him on our list next year. Is he contracted past the end of this season?

Adelaide or Port for the go home factor.

You have to identify trade bait early and hope other clubs still see potential development in them. Holding a player until they prove they're not up to it means you get nothing for them. That's the difference between a skilled coaching/list management group and your mug footy watcher who says " he's only played x games, give him a few more years before you get rid of him".

[Scraggers]

I think the Cats are a good example of how ball movement makes you faster than leg speed in footy.

I don't disagree with you Rocco, Geelong's use of the ball has been exquisite over the last few seasons, but North's speed last night (and NOT skill) is what won them the game ... They were faster than the Saints, pure and simple.

[stefoid]

Jay Clark just tweeted:

@ClarkyHeraldSun: Dogs list manager Jason McCartney says the club will target quality ball-users at this year's draft. Need some polish going inside 50m.

Good news!

And in other news, grass is green and sky is blue :D

Thats why I agree with the strategy that led us to pick howard and tutt - whether we picked the right players that will make it is a different question.

If you rely on late picks and discards to fill gaps you will never fill them adequately unless you are prepared to pay way , way too much, which is just a big risk of a different kind.

[Remi Moses]

I've yet to see him show anything to suggest he can play half back at either AFL or VFL level. When he's played there he's been a defensive liability yet still provided little offensive rebound. He's a poor one on one defender, is weak overhead, and despite the huge wraps on him as a draftee his kicking is average.

His only chance is as a winger, but given he's not quick, can't break lines with run and carry, and isn't a damaging ball user, we're basically trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole because we don't have any other choice.

It was a rediculous drafting choice at the time and 3 years later it still looks to to be. The point of trading a player is that you off load a player that won't make it to a club that's thinks he will. That is Howard.

Writing someone off after 15 games ? Interesting

[Greystache]

Writing someone off after 15 games ? Interesting

15 games? I take it you've only ever seen him on a Saturday if he's in the seniors.

[Eastdog]

15 games? I take it you've only ever seen him on a Saturday if he's in the seniors.

Does Howard have a future with us or will he just be another dud in your opinion.

[Remi Moses]

Adelaide or Port for the go home factor.

You have to identify trade bait early and hope other clubs still see potential development in them. Holding a player until they prove they're not up to it means you get nothing for them. That's the difference between a skilled coaching/list management group and your mug footy watcher who says " he's only played x games, give him a few more years before you get rid of him".

So other clubs see potential yet we see a dud.:rolleyes:
So on your talent identification ability Mitch Wallis would have been traded!
Memo future recruits you've got a dozen games to perform or you're traded delisted:eek:

[GVGjr]

I'm sure Eade had his say, but one would think that the head of the footy deptartment had the most say in these decisions.

I get what you are saying but I can't fathom how Eade didn't have some input into the promotions of Mulligan (3 year deal) from the rookie list and the same for Hooper.

He also wasn't able to cut the cord with Hahn.

I just can't see how a senior coach doesn't have a significant say in those basic list management decisions. I could be very wrong with this assumption though.

And with a new recruiter I think he should have been casting his eye over what was going on. It doesn't mean he would necessarily overrule the draftee's selected but the overall list management decisions he could have influenced more.

[Remi Moses]

15 games? I take it you've only ever seen him on a Saturday if he's in the seniors.

He was good in the Brisbane and Port game.
Lucky you don't list manage the Eagles, they'd have only 3 or 4 players left from 2010!

[GVGjr]

This thread is way over the top.
Christian Howard traded after 15 games? Rediculous
Good drafting , good coaching, good development is imperative .

I think he has a lot to offer us. I wouldn't trade him unless someone was prepared to pay over the odds for him.

[Desipura]

I'm sensing those that were a strong advocate of retaining Eade have become a bit more vocal in recent times.
Personally Im with GVGJr on this one in that BMac needs more experienced assistants.

[GVGjr]

So in what role do you see Howard making an impact at AFL and what attributes do you think he can bring to the team?

Half back or wing. He might not be an impact player but I think he can be a solid player for us. I'm not prepared to write him off.

[Greystache]

He was good in the Brisbane and Port game.
Lucky you don't list manage the Eagles, they'd have only 3 or 4 players left from 2010!

Wow you can labour a point.

I get it you rate him, I don't. 15 more posts of you not saying anything new won't change that.

[Eastdog]

Half back or wing. He might not be an impact player but I think he can be a solid player for us. I'm not prepared to write him off.

I'm with you on that as well GVGjr we need to give him a chance.

[Remi Moses]

I'm sensing those that were a strong advocate of retaining Eade have become a bit more vocal in recent times.
Personally Im with GVGJr on this one in that BMac needs more experienced assistants.

Agree also with King and Grant we have two inexperienced coaches.Would have liked Laidley, personally.

[Remi Moses]

Wow you can labour a point.

I get it you rate him, I don't. 15 more posts of you not saying anything new won't change that.

It's not about "Rating" him, it's about not forming a conclusion after limited experience that's all.

[Greystache]

Half back or wing. He might not be an impact player but I think he can be a solid player for us. I'm not prepared to write him off.

I think his market currency is the highest it will ever be, we have to decide I guess how much value he will offer in the long run and whether we'd be get more via a trade.

I'm inclined to take the trade if we can get a decent offer.

[Desipura]

Forget about Howard being traded, it will not happen.
Clubs (especially ours) do not trade a player after only a few seasons on the list, especially when you consider he has had injuries.
As mentioned previously, we would not get much in return for him anyway.
If you want to trade and get a decent pick in return, look at what other clubs have a shortage of ie ruckman.
Collingwood, Geelong, St Kilda, Hawthorn, Port Adelaide are all after mature ruck man. Minson is having his best season, he is one player that clubs may pay overs for.
Given he is out of contract at seasons end, we would have to somehow orchestrate it so we don't lose him for nothing.
I'm sure if you waved the carrot that he could play in a premiership side, he may be a part of a trade.

[Desipura]

I think his market currency is the highest it will ever be, we have to decide I guess how much value he will offer in the long run and whether we'd be get more via a trade.

I'm inclined to take the trade if we can get a decent offer.

What do you realistically think clubs would offer for him? I think a 3rd round pick at best given how strong this draft is supposed to be.

[Maddog37]

Hasn't he had two lots of hip surgery?

[Dancin' Douggy]

Players with an X factor is something we just don't have. Someone that can be a match winner.

One of the reasons Skinner might be worth another year.

[bornadog]

I get what you are saying but I can't fathom how Eade didn't have some input into the promotions of Mulligan (3 year deal) from the rookie list and the same for Hooper.

He also wasn't able to cut the cord with Hahn.

I just can't see how a senior coach doesn't have a significant say in those basic list management decisions. I could be very worng with this assumption though.

And with a new recruiter I think he should have been casting his eye over what was going on. It doesn't mean he would necessarily overrule the draftee's selected but the overall list management decisions he could have influenced more.

Of course he would have had a say, the coach has to have a vote in the discussion.

[azabob]

What do you realistically think clubs would offer for him? I think a 3rd round pick at best given how strong this draft is supposed to be.

Apparently the top end of the draft is strong, but its not that deep.

[Eastdog]

One of the reasons Skinner might be worth another year.

It would be good to see more of Skinner play in the seniors.

[Pickenitup]

Im Keen To Keep Howard but if there was a go home factor a Trade with Andy Otten On the cards.
Seems to be on the outer at The Crows.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Pot, this is kettle. Over.

Oh you make me laugh Scargger, It was a good rant and an even better reply.

Oh by the way the only thing you didn't want to get rid of was the WOOF site;)

[FrediKanoute]

This thread is way over the top.
Christian Howard traded after 15 games? Rediculous
Good drafting , good coaching, good development is imperative .

I'd rather dump him after 15 uninspiring games than 30 or 50 uninspiring games. Wont make it and will be a list clogger at best.

[GVGjr]

I'd rather dump him after 15 uninspiring games than 30 or 50 uninspiring games. Wont make it and will be a list clogger at best.

I think you area a bit tough there Fredi. The term of list clogger should be directed to a number of other players on our list before it should be said about Howard. He's been in the system for 3 years and will get better.
God I hate using a Garry Lyon expression.

[w3design]

God has the whole world gone to cr^p or what?
When was the word ...patience...eliminated from the dictionary????

Some of these posts make me fair want to puke!

I reckon Griff is about the only player on the list who has not been relegated to hack, excess, spud or trade bait.

Have a look at history. In club, while his time may now be nearing its end, not that long ago Gilbee was the best kick in the league, and pretty much regarded as one of our very best. A couple of years before that he could not manage a senior game, and was looked at as trade bait, with many suggesting he had no currency. Move forward a year or two, and every other team in the league would have given up their wives and mothers to nab him off us.

Look back at Geelong not that many years ago. Bomber Thompson was a complete dud with the hounds baying for his head. A year or two and multiple premierships later he was God's gift to coaching.
Look back a few years at the Dons. Stanton was a complete spud, and needed delisting. Watson was to slow, without skill or redeeming qualities, only in the team because of his pedigree. Both are now fixtures in a very good team, and a large part of what makes it so.

I could go on all night citing examples, but what is the point?
All those on here that want to delist or trade good players, and replace them with untried kids, that the same posters will bad mouth and want delisted if they fail to turn into Chris Grant or Brad Johnson in their first 10-15 games, need to improve their perspective, and get a little more realistic for a change.

To me, Essendon played on the weekend, just the way Geelong made themselves a champion side, get the ball out of congestion with skilled quick hand passing, then running away with the ball or passing it without pressure. They have the added advantage of leg speed too.

Clearly, this is how Mac. intends to have our side play. But making that type of play instinctive, takes time and practice. If you simply discard players ad-hock if they don't do it immediately, you will simply be training one group of new comers after another, and delisting or trading them before they achieve, time and time again indefinitely.

Come on guys, show a little faith and patience, and I know it is a term out of fashion, but Loyalty. Please.

We do need to make changes, but throwing the babies out with the bath water will only make things worse. Give our coach and playing group time. We have waited this long for the ultimate, hang in there for a bit longer, and put the chainsaw back in the shed for a bit.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I agree with Stache on this one. I would float his name around and see what opposition clubs would be willing to pay. If it's a early second round pick or better, I'd take it.

Personally I just don't see enough positives to Howard's game. He isn't quick and his agility is even worse; he has the turning circle of Dawes from Collingwood. He has already proven he cannot defend IMO, highlighted by some seriously atrocious efforts on Saturday night. He needs to try and make the wing his position -- but his lack of pace is concerning.

An area of his game that should get better is his kicking, but I think it's a facet that has been overrated by some. Not sure he will ever be truly elite by foot.

It's a tough call but I've never really been overly impressed by Howard at AFL or VFL level.

[Remi Moses]

I'd rather dump him after 15 uninspiring games than 30 or 50 uninspiring games. Wont make it and will be a list clogger at best.

Gee Fredi, watching the Port and Lion game were we?
Probably our best against Brisbane!

[Desipura]

I agree with Stache on this one. I would float his name around and see what opposition clubs would be willing to pay. If it's a early second round pick or better, I'd take it.

Personally I just don't see enough positives to Howard's game. He isn't quick and his agility is even worse; he has the turning circle of Dawes from Collingwood. He has already proven he cannot defend IMO, highlighted by some seriously atrocious efforts on Saturday night. He needs to try and make the wing his position -- but his lack of pace is concerning.

An area of his game that should get better is his kicking, but I think it's a facet that has been overrated by some. Not sure he will ever be truly elite by foot.

It's a tough call but I've never really been overly impressed by Howard at AFL or VFL level.

You do not see positives but hope other clubs will and offer us an early 2nd round pick or better?:confused:

[Bulldog Joe]

God has the whole world gone to cr^p or what?
When was the word ...patience...eliminated from the dictionary????

Some of these posts make me fair want to puke!

I reckon Griff is about the only player on the list who has not been relegated to hack, excess, spud or trade bait.

Have a look at history. In club, while his time may now be nearing its end, not that long ago Gilbee was the best kick in the league, and pretty much regarded as one of our very best. A couple of years before that he could not manage a senior game, and was looked at as trade bait, with many suggesting he had no currency. Move forward a year or two, and every other team in the league would have given up their wives and mothers to nab him off us.

Look back at Geelong not that many years ago. Bomber Thompson was a complete dud with the hounds baying for his head. A year or two and multiple premierships later he was God's gift to coaching.
Look back a few years at the Dons. Stanton was a complete spud, and needed delisting. Watson was to slow, without skill or redeeming qualities, only in the team because of his pedigree. Both are now fixtures in a very good team, and a large part of what makes it so.

I could go on all night citing examples, but what is the point?
All those on here that want to delist or trade good players, and replace them with untried kids, that the same posters will bad mouth and want delisted if they fail to turn into Chris Grant or Brad Johnson in their first 10-15 games, need to improve their perspective, and get a little more realistic for a change.

To me, Essendon played on the weekend, just the way Geelong made themselves a champion side, get the ball out of congestion with skilled quick hand passing, then running away with the ball or passing it without pressure. They have the added advantage of leg speed too.

Clearly, this is how Mac. intends to have our side play. But making that type of play instinctive, takes time and practice. If you simply discard players ad-hock if they don't do it immediately, you will simply be training one group of new comers after another, and delisting or trading them before they achieve, time and time again indefinitely.

Come on guys, show a little faith and patience, and I know it is a term out of fashion, but Loyalty. Please.

We do need to make changes, but throwing the babies out with the bath water will only make things worse. Give our coach and playing group time. We have waited this long for the ultimate, hang in there for a bit longer, and put the chainsaw back in the shed for a bit.


Just a terrific post.

I too am disappointed and frustrated with how things are at the moment, but we do need to give it time.

As supporters we are not privy to the inner workings or what the coach expects, but having appointed a coach renowned for teaching the game, he needs to be given time to do it.

If we are tracking the same next year, I will be less forgiving.

[Sedat]

Just a terrific post.

I too am disappointed and frustrated with how things are at the moment, but we do need to give it time.

As supporters we are not privy to the inner workings or what the coach expects, but having appointed a coach renowned for teaching the game, he needs to be given time to do it.

If we are tracking the same next year, I will be less forgiving.
I'm also prepared to wait and give McCartney the chance to mould and shape the team and the playing style, but it is important to find out what is happening with our complete and utter non-competitiveness in the last 4 weeks. As an example, Clarkson was not an instant hit at Hawthorn, but nor did his team get absolutely hammered week after week in 2005-6 like we have this past month. Likewise St Kilda under Lyon took their time to find their feet but were never subjected to any sustained non-competitiveness.

The game might well be reverting back to hard one-on-one structures in a couple of years' time, and if it does we'll obviously be very well placed then. But if it doesn't, I actually don't want to contemplate that scenario just yet...

[Mantis]

I'm also prepared to wait and give McCartney the chance to mould and shape the team and the playing style, but it is important to find out what is happening with our complete and utter non-competitiveness in the last 4 weeks. As an example, Clarkson was not an instant hit at Hawthorn, but nor did his team get absolutely hammered week after week in 2005-6 like we have this past month. Likewise St Kilda under Lyon took their time to find their feet but were never subjected to any sustained non-competitiveness.

The game might well be reverting back to hard one-on-one structures in a couple of years' time, and if it does we'll obviously be very well placed then. But if it doesn't, I actually don't want to contemplate that scenario just yet...

I don't mind us having to re-build, but I would like to see us play with a purpose and with a competitive edge (like the coach has preached) when we play. Sure there will be ups and downs, but 3 pathetic efforts over the past 4 games is quite simply not good enough.

The fact that we have seen no improvement from a number of our developing players isn't great either and means the rebuild is going to take a fair while.

[Sedat]

I don't mind us having to re-build, but I would like to see us play with a purpose and with a competitive edge (like the coach has preached) when we play. Sure there will be ups and downs, but 3 pathetic efforts over the past 4 games is quite simply not good enough.Up until the Sydney game, I was very happy with how the team was adjusting to the new playing style and also pleased with the competitive edge that the team was consistently displaying. But it has been an unmitigated disaster since then and undone most of the positives from the first 8 weeks of the season. Our coaching staff need to dissect just what has gone wrong so quickly, because 3 losses of 13 goals inside a month is the stuff of nightmares. I take a little solace from North under Brad Scott, who in his first season in charge had matches where his team was routinely carved up - but even then, North are not guaranteed of seeing finals action 3 years into the rebuild. Hawthorn under Clarkson won a flag in his 4th season in charge, and Lyon did all but win a flag in his 3rd season in charge. The numbers would suggest that we won't be top 4 contender until 2015 at the earliest - that's quite a large helping of patience.

I wonder how a Lewis Jetta would fare under Macca, seeing as he clearly does not win his own ball? I hope that someone like a Tutt is given every chance to showcase his assets to the senior team in the coming weeks, because even the best lock-down teams (Sydney under Roos, St Kilda under Lyon) needed that sprinkling of classy outside line-breakers.

[LostDoggy]

[QUOTE=Mantis;277428] 3 pathetic efforts over the past 4 games is quite simply not good enough.QUOTE]

The positive is we aren't Carlton! The most pathetic thing I watched on the weekend was the Dorks flipping it over their backs; again, and again, and again, and again....:D

[LostDoggy]

God has the whole world gone to cr^p or what?
When was the word ...patience...eliminated from the dictionary????

Some of these posts make me fair want to puke!

I reckon Griff is about the only player on the list who has not been relegated to hack, excess, spud or trade bait.

Have a look at history. In club, while his time may now be nearing its end, not that long ago Gilbee was the best kick in the league, and pretty much regarded as one of our very best. A couple of years before that he could not manage a senior game, and was looked at as trade bait, with many suggesting he had no currency. Move forward a year or two, and every other team in the league would have given up their wives and mothers to nab him off us.

Look back at Geelong not that many years ago. Bomber Thompson was a complete dud with the hounds baying for his head. A year or two and multiple premierships later he was God's gift to coaching.
Look back a few years at the Dons. Stanton was a complete spud, and needed delisting. Watson was to slow, without skill or redeeming qualities, only in the team because of his pedigree. Both are now fixtures in a very good team, and a large part of what makes it so.

I could go on all night citing examples, but what is the point?
All those on here that want to delist or trade good players, and replace them with untried kids, that the same posters will bad mouth and want delisted if they fail to turn into Chris Grant or Brad Johnson in their first 10-15 games, need to improve their perspective, and get a little more realistic for a change.

To me, Essendon played on the weekend, just the way Geelong made themselves a champion side, get the ball out of congestion with skilled quick hand passing, then running away with the ball or passing it without pressure. They have the added advantage of leg speed too.

Clearly, this is how Mac. intends to have our side play. But making that type of play instinctive, takes time and practice. If you simply discard players ad-hock if they don't do it immediately, you will simply be training one group of new comers after another, and delisting or trading them before they achieve, time and time again indefinitely.

Come on guys, show a little faith and patience, and I know it is a term out of fashion, but Loyalty. Please.

We do need to make changes, but throwing the babies out with the bath water will only make things worse. Give our coach and playing group time. We have waited this long for the ultimate, hang in there for a bit longer, and put the chainsaw back in the shed for a bit.

Thank you for writing this!! 100% agree on every sentence!

[ledge]

Would just like to say our coach at the start of his contract said the club was doing a lot of things right..ummmm seems its gone the other way at the moment.

[bornadog]

God has the whole world gone to cr^p or what?
When was the word ...patience...eliminated from the dictionary????

Some of these posts make me fair want to puke!

I reckon Griff is about the only player on the list who has not been relegated to hack, excess, spud or trade bait.

Have a look at history. In club, while his time may now be nearing its end, not that long ago Gilbee was the best kick in the league, and pretty much regarded as one of our very best. A couple of years before that he could not manage a senior game, and was looked at as trade bait, with many suggesting he had no currency. Move forward a year or two, and every other team in the league would have given up their wives and mothers to nab him off us.

Look back at Geelong not that many years ago. Bomber Thompson was a complete dud with the hounds baying for his head. A year or two and multiple premierships later he was God's gift to coaching.
Look back a few years at the Dons. Stanton was a complete spud, and needed delisting. Watson was to slow, without skill or redeeming qualities, only in the team because of his pedigree. Both are now fixtures in a very good team, and a large part of what makes it so.

I could go on all night citing examples, but what is the point?
All those on here that want to delist or trade good players, and replace them with untried kids, that the same posters will bad mouth and want delisted if they fail to turn into Chris Grant or Brad Johnson in their first 10-15 games, need to improve their perspective, and get a little more realistic for a change.

To me, Essendon played on the weekend, just the way Geelong made themselves a champion side, get the ball out of congestion with skilled quick hand passing, then running away with the ball or passing it without pressure. They have the added advantage of leg speed too.

Clearly, this is how Mac. intends to have our side play. But making that type of play instinctive, takes time and practice. If you simply discard players ad-hock if they don't do it immediately, you will simply be training one group of new comers after another, and delisting or trading them before they achieve, time and time again indefinitely.

Come on guys, show a little faith and patience, and I know it is a term out of fashion, but Loyalty. Please.

We do need to make changes, but throwing the babies out with the bath water will only make things worse. Give our coach and playing group time. We have waited this long for the ultimate, hang in there for a bit longer, and put the chainsaw back in the shed for a bit.

The reason for my thread was to get discussion on how we can take this club to the next level and not accept mediocracy. I listed 10 players that I believe are not at the level we require to take us back to a top 4 side. At the end of the year it's an ideal opportunity to enter he draft with a view of plugging some of our deficiencies.

Are you saying we don't need to do much and lets see what happens?

[ReLoad]

Football teams as a rule go through a cycle, thanks to the draft and other factors, you cannot expect to be at the top all the time, you need time and often draft picks to rebuild. We have been through this cycle before, in the mid/late 90's and of course our last few prelims. So guess what.....

Its that time again.

Those calling for immediate changes and expecting super fast results are delusional, we need to go through the cycle, yes we need to get rid of some old wood, but you also need some old wood around to help out the pups too.

Those questioning Macca are jumping the gun, the guy has had half a season with which to try to get the team where he wants them, even if we had the best coach in the world, I cannot see our results being any different.

So lets cut deep without crippling ourselves and be ready for at least another 12-24 months of pain because these new kids we will be getting in, will not make an impact for at least that long.

that's my .02 Peoples Republic of West Footscray roubles.

[Throughandthrough]

I'd rather dump him after 15 uninspiring games than 30 or 50 uninspiring games. Wont make it and will be a list clogger at best.


Wasn't C Howard Best on one or two weeks ago? If not he was right up there.

[ledge]

I like Howard I think he is getting better and better.
Will be one of our stalwarts in the future.

[G-Mo77]

Wasn't C Howard Best on one or two weeks ago? If not he was right up there.

Yeah, I thought he's been pretty solid since coming back from injury. Saturday night though, not so good, doesn't mean his bag should be packed.

[w3design]

Wasn't C Howard Best on one or two weeks ago? If not he was right up there.

That is dead right T&T. Give the kid a break, and a bit of time to develop.
Yes it is true he is not quick, and as some one pointed out his turning circle has a less than inspiring diameter.

But think back a few years, Greg Williams had all the pace of a three wheeled tram. He did not make an immediate impact when he came into the League. Neither of those factors prevented him from going on to be an out and out champion.

From our own recent history, Scotty West would have struggled to outrun my Grandmother, but what a champion.
Yes we do lack and need foot speed, but that is neither the only kind of speed in our game, nor is it the only ingredient of a good player.

A team is made up of players with a variety of skills, and that is what makes team sport, and part of what defines a good team.

[chef]

I like Howard I think he is getting better and better.
Will be one of our stalwarts in the future.

What position do you see him settling in?

[ledge]

What position do you see him settling in?

Not sure as yet but early in games he seems to get a lot of the ball in the back half, no idea on his goal kicking abillity but if its good and people go on about his kicking maybe a Gilbee who has the odd shot at goal from a fair way out?

[kruder]

Agree, but it would be nice to have both.

Some players with a bit of X factor would be nice.

Dayle Garlett yes please

[chef]

Not sure as yet but early in games he seems to get a lot of the ball in the back half, no idea on his goal kicking ability but if its good and people go on about his kicking maybe a Gilbee who has the odd shot at goal from a fair way out?

I find him a bit of a worry as he doesn't have the speed, agility or over head skills to be a flanker(plus his foot skills are over rated).

Is he going to be good enough and be able to find enough of the ball in the mid field?

[LostDoggy]

Wasn't C Howard Best on one or two weeks ago? If not he was right up there.

That's an exaggeration. Not 1 vote yet in the boards Marmo award.
He is was ok in a couple of games but not in the bests.

[bornadog]

Those questioning Macca are jumping the gun, the guy has had half a season with which to try to get the team where he wants them, even if we had the best coach in the world, I cannot see our results being any different.

Agree we need to give Macca a go. What I am saying is he needs a good right hand man, like a Thommo at Essendon type. Not sure who that would be, but it seems his current 2Ic's are not up to it.

[Throughandthrough]

That's an exaggeration. Not 1 vote yet in the boards Marmo award.
He is was ok in a couple of games but not in the bests.


WESTERN BULLDOGS 2.3 5.6 5.10 7.14 (56)
BRISBANE LIONS 6.1 8.5 12.5 18.6 (114)

GOALS
Western Bulldogs: Giansiracusa 2, Cross, Dickson, Higgins, Murphy, Roughead
Brisbane Lions: McGrath 5, Merrett 4, Bewick 2, Rich 2, Rockliff 2, Hanley, Raines, Redden

BEST
Western Bulldogs: Howard, Liberatore, Campbell, Griffen, Lake, Dahlhaus, Cross
Brisbane Lions: Rockliff, Hanley, McGrath. Zorko, Redden, Merrett, Black, Rich

INJURIES
Western Bulldogs: Nil
Brisbane Lions: Maguire (elbow)

[Remi Moses]

I'll give an Antony Green on election night "To early to call".
Just a little perplexed that we should trade him now as he has "currency".
If he has so many liabilities how in hell are other teams going to be remotely interested?

[LostDoggy]

WESTERN BULLDOGS 2.3 5.6 5.10 7.14 (56)
BRISBANE LIONS 6.1 8.5 12.5 18.6 (114)

GOALS
Western Bulldogs: Giansiracusa 2, Cross, Dickson, Higgins, Murphy, Roughead
Brisbane Lions: McGrath 5, Merrett 4, Bewick 2, Rich 2, Rockliff 2, Hanley, Raines, Redden

BEST
Western Bulldogs: Howard, Liberatore, Campbell, Griffen, Lake, Dahlhaus, Cross
Brisbane Lions: Rockliff, Hanley, McGrath. Zorko, Redden, Merrett, Black, Rich

INJURIES
Western Bulldogs: Nil
Brisbane Lions: Maguire (elbow)
Did you write that yourself?
I saw that game. Will go he if Howard was our best.
Not in our top 5 easily, as voted by people here.

[SlimPickens]

Did you write that yourself?
I saw that game. Will go he if Howard was our best.
Not in our top 5 easily, as voted by people here.

He had a lot of ball that day, isn't that how they decide the votes? :rolleyes:

[jeemak]

Did you write that yourself?
I saw that game. Will go he if Howard was our best.
Not in our top 5 easily, as voted by people here.

I thought he was definitely in our top two or three that particular day. He attacked the ball well, and used it well in patches too.

I'm not sold on him, though to say he hasn't shown some attributes that contribute to being an AFL senior player is a little bit much for me.

[Ghost Dog]

What do we need to do for 2013? Get a new marketing strategy. Most of our hard core fans are aging, having kids, no longer able to get to games. As our on field approach evolves, I hope our marketing can support that.

[Throughandthrough]

Did you write that yourself?
I saw that game. Will go he if Howard was our best.
Not in our top 5 easily, as voted by people here.


It's from the Western Bulldogs site. .


PS it's extremely difficult for an outsider (as presumably you and I are) to guage best players. Example a, player X may be told to shut down player Y. Player Y may have 11 possesions and 1 goal, Player X may only have 8 possessions. But if player Y averages 30+ possessions and 3 goals a match, then potentially player X may be awarded BOG by the coaching panel for doing his job perfectly. And may only get a trickle of votes by the fan in the stand.

[Rocco Jones]

Not a big fan of 'bests' from sites/papers but here's my view of Howard's last 3 games.

Vs Port: A promising/decent performance.
Vs Lions: He was in my top 6-7, which wasn't hard in such a woeful team performance. Still, I really liked his attack on the ball.
Vs Dons: Just awful.

So 2 OK/good performances and 1 shocker. I think he should get another chance.

[Desipura]

Did you write that yourself?
I saw that game. Will go he if Howard was our best.
Not in our top 5 easily, as voted by people here.
What that means is that the people that are voting do not rate him. He is not the player we should be pointing the finger at, his form has been ok to good.
Just because we picked him up with our first pick, he is being judged harshly.

[SlimPickens]

Just because we picked him up with our first pick, he is being judged harshly.

Agree with this, the expectation of first round picks is always escalated compared to other first year players (Fairly or not). Howard is coming from a long way back. I'd like to wait until he gets around the 40-60 game mark before judging him too harshly.

[LostDoggy]

The reason for my thread was to get discussion on how we can take this club to the next level and not accept mediocracy. I listed 10 players that I believe are not at the level we require to take us back to a top 4 side. At the end of the year it's an ideal opportunity to enter he draft with a view of plugging some of our deficiencies.

Are you saying we don't need to do much and lets see what happens?

Oh Jesus, we've wheeled this one out.

I have to say, I'm totally sick of these kind of posts on here. I once came to WOOF because it had more intelligent, thoughtful and insightful commentary and opinion than some of the other forums around, especially Big Footy. But this place is heading to the same dark regions of the galaxy as the Dogs' Facebook page, and frankly, I'm about two “let's trade X” threads away from leaving for good.

[Sedat]

Oh Jesus, we've wheeled this one out.

I have to say, I'm totally sick of these kind of posts on here. I once came to WOOF because it had more intelligent, thoughtful and insightful commentary and opinion than some of the other forums around, especially Big Footy. But this place is heading to the same dark regions of the galaxy as the Dogs' Facebook page, and frankly, I'm about two “let's trade X” threads away from leaving for good.
Agree with your general sentiment, but equally the last 4 weeks have been concerning to say the least.

Now 4 weeks of ineptitude in the middle of 2012 won't be important in the grand scheme of things from 2015 onwards, but the manner of our complete and utter non-competitiveness in 3 of the last 4 weeks is something that has understandably raised eyebrows with the fans and the media alike - I've no doubt or coaching panel would not have expected it either. The odd thrashing is perfectly acceptable when rebullding whilst the playing group come to terms with the new game-plan and the new coach starts sorting the wheat from the chaff in terms of playing personnel, but getting hammered almost every week for a month is verging into the unacceptable territory.

If our contested ball and clearance numbers had noticably dropped off, I'd be far less concerned because it would be an effort and application issue. But our numbers in these key indicators were still very high against Sydney and Brisbane (and only slightly down v Essendon) and we were sliced open like a can of Spam. Macca has openly stated that these indicators are critical to his coaching philosophy, so if our contested ball and clearance numbers are strong and we are still getting smashed (when our players have clearly bought into the new game-plan), it is a cause for concern IMO. Either the game-plan is outdated, it is ahead of its time (finger's crossed it is this), there are too many ordinary players on the list and we need to cut deeper to bring in the required personnel to carry out the new game-plan, or it's a combination of 2 of the 3.

Lot's of unanswered questions, and it will be interesting to see how the playing group and the coaching staff respond for the rest of the season.

[LostDoggy]

What that means is that the people that are voting do not rate him. He is not the player we should be pointing the finger at, his form has been ok to good.
Just because we picked him up with our first pick, he is being judged harshly.

I was just pointing out he wasn't bog. I might not rate him but some other are exaggerating his performances. Read Rocco's post for a fair assessment.

[Ghost Dog]

Agree with your general sentiment, but equally the last 4 weeks have been concerning to say the least.

Now 4 weeks of ineptitude in the middle of 2012 won't be important in the grand scheme of things from 2015 onwards, but the manner of our complete and utter non-competitiveness in 3 of the last 4 weeks is something that has understandably raised eyebrows with the fans and the media alike - I've no doubt or coaching panel would not have expected it either. The odd thrashing is perfectly acceptable when rebullding whilst the playing group come to terms with the new game-plan and the new coach starts sorting the wheat from the chaff in terms of playing personnel, but getting hammered almost every week for a month is verging into the unacceptable territory.

If our contested ball and clearance numbers had noticably dropped off, I'd be far less concerned because it would be an effort and application issue. But our numbers in these key indicators were still very high against Sydney and Brisbane (and only slightly down v Essendon) and we were sliced open like a can of Spam. Macca has openly stated that these indicators are critical to his coaching philosophy, so if our contested ball and clearance numbers are strong and we are still getting smashed (when our players have clearly bought into the new game-plan), it is a cause for concern IMO. Either the game-plan is outdated, it is ahead of its time (finger's crossed it is this), there are too many ordinary players on the list and we need to cut deeper to bring in the required personnel to carry out the new game-plan, or it's a combination of 2 of the 3.

Lot's of unanswered questions, and it will be interesting to see how the playing group and the coaching staff respond for the rest of the season.

Fine post. It's called foot-ball. And kicking is our big failing.
It's fine to take the Geelong model of contested ball, but what about their skills?
The cats have always made a point of having excellent skills so the fans put on a show. That's the philosophy of Olde Geelong. Foot and Ball usage at the dogs is atrocious.

[bornadog]

Oh Jesus, we've wheeled this one out.

I have to say, I'm totally sick of these kind of posts on here. I once came to WOOF because it had more intelligent, thoughtful and insightful commentary and opinion than some of the other forums around, especially Big Footy. But this place is heading to the same dark regions of the galaxy as the Dogs' Facebook page, and frankly, I'm about two “let's trade X” threads away from leaving for good.

What type of posts are you referring to? Most posters here are giving their opinion on how to improve the club. Tell me which players that I mentioned in the OP should we keep?

I think you are the one resorting to Big Footy type of posting by bagging other peoples posts. How about telling us what you think the club needs to do, or what you don't agree with and why you don't agree?

[Pembleton]

Yep. Pure leg speed is overrated IMO. Foot skills, sound decision making, clean hands off the deck and instant excerlation (I know that's leg speed too!) are much more important that being a fast runner.

You are right, but i'd go further. I think all individual attributes are overrated. Commentary from fans (and media) seems to oscillate between focussing on one attribute then another then back again. How good a player (and a team) are is determined by the entire mix of attributes (and a player's cleverness in the way they maximise strengths and minimise weaknesses in game situations), and the better they are in each of them, the better the player (and the team) are.

[Desipura]

Fine post. It's called foot-ball. And kicking is our big failing.
It's fine to take the Geelong model of contested ball, but what about their skills?
The cats have always made a point of having excellent skills so the fans put on a show. That's the philosophy of Olde Geelong. Foot and Ball usage at the dogs is atrocious.
Fair points you make, it will take more than just one draft to address our skill issues.
That said, we will have a number of picks this year so that will definately assist (assuming we do not recruit players who cannot kick like last season)

Perhaps, BMac thought he would address the issue of adding players with grunt/height on our list in the previous draft, before he addressed the skills issue, I will watch our philosophy come draft time with interest.

[Ghost Dog]

Fair points you make, it will take more than just one draft to address our skill issues.
That said, we will have a number of picks this year so that will definately assist (assuming we do not recruit players who cannot kick like last season)

Perhaps, BMac thought he would address the issue of adding players with grunt/height on our list in the previous draft, before he addressed the skills issue, I will watch our philosophy come draft time with interest.

Well, he may have figured he would get a little bit more from our senior group in that respect. We are going to miss Murph for sure in the next few weeks.

The other point may be our run and spread is not effective enough to allow uncontested marking with any certainty. It's all very well to bag the players for poor kicking, but if kicking to a contest, or under so much pressure because your team mate hasn't laid a proper block, can hardly blame the kicker.
That being said, shots on goal have been not great. Youth and just lack of confidence there perhaps.

Who are our 80m players? those that can run, carry and lay a boot into it? Griff, Tutt, Maybe Moles, Not sure about Sherman, Dahl. If we don't have enough of these types, who can navigate in heavy traffic, you can forget using the corridor and you just greatly reduced the amount of land you can use as an option in play.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Agree with your general sentiment, but equally the last 4 weeks have been concerning to say the least.

Now 4 weeks of ineptitude in the middle of 2012 won't be important in the grand scheme of things from 2015 onwards, but the manner of our complete and utter non-competitiveness in 3 of the last 4 weeks is something that has understandably raised eyebrows with the fans and the media alike - I've no doubt or coaching panel would not have expected it either. The odd thrashing is perfectly acceptable when rebullding whilst the playing group come to terms with the new game-plan and the new coach starts sorting the wheat from the chaff in terms of playing personnel, but getting hammered almost every week for a month is verging into the unacceptable territory.

If our contested ball and clearance numbers had noticably dropped off, I'd be far less concerned because it would be an effort and application issue. But our numbers in these key indicators were still very high against Sydney and Brisbane (and only slightly down v Essendon) and we were sliced open like a can of Spam. Macca has openly stated that these indicators are critical to his coaching philosophy, so if our contested ball and clearance numbers are strong and we are still getting smashed (when our players have clearly bought into the new game-plan), it is a cause for concern IMO. Either the game-plan is outdated, it is ahead of its time (finger's crossed it is this), there are too many ordinary players on the list and we need to cut deeper to bring in the required personnel to carry out the new game-plan, or it's a combination of 2 of the 3.

Lot's of unanswered questions, and it will be interesting to see how the playing group and the coaching staff respond for the rest of the season.

Are we forgetting that we have lost Johnson, Eagleton, Hudson, Harbrow, Ward, Hall,Akermanis Gilbee, Morris and Williams from the Rodney Eade days. The required personnel isn't there at the moment and we are in for some tough times until we can rebuild the current list. We are crying out for at least one quality key forward if not two and that should be our first priority. I have faith in BMcC but being realistic we simply do not have a quality list right now.

[Greystache]

Oh Jesus, we've wheeled this one out.

I have to say, I'm totally sick of these kind of posts on here. I once came to WOOF because it had more intelligent, thoughtful and insightful commentary and opinion than some of the other forums around, especially Big Footy. But this place is heading to the same dark regions of the galaxy as the Dogs' Facebook page, and frankly, I'm about two “let's trade X” threads away from leaving for good.

Some people find those types of post just as tiresome and people complaining that WOOF isn't living up to their expectation of standards.

The moderating team will decide what is an acceptable standard, if you don't agree with what someone has posted then counter it with a well reasoned argument, or if you disagree with it so strongly then don't read the thread. Holding posters to ransom unless they agree with your view point is quite frankly juvenile

[LostDoggy]

What type of posts are you referring to? Most posters here are giving their opinion on how to improve the club. Tell me which players that I mentioned in the OP should we keep?

I think you are the one resorting to Big Footy type of posting by bagging other peoples posts. How about telling us what you think the club needs to do, or what you don't agree with and why you don't agree?

I've made well known my thoughts. I've got no problems with differing opinions, just the level of intellect behind them. Some of the suggestions are so outlandish, it's ridiculous. Sorry, there's no other way to describe an opinion that we should trade a first-round pick who's played 15 games. There's no other way to describe opinions that we should sack the coach after 12 games. There's no other way to describe opinions that Grant and Jones are done and dusted and should languish at Willy forever in exchange for Panos, The Great White Hope. There's no other way to describe opinions that we should sack the president because he said the word refresh instead of rebuild. We may need a new President, yes, but that's a pretty stupid reason for it.

(I'm talking about general opinions I've read here in recent months, not yours specifically)

You can bitch and moan at me to “respect the opinion” all you like, but when the best someone can come up with is to trade out half the team and play the rest of the team into form off the half back line, well, there's only so many times you can interact with threads of that sort before you turn around and say, “My time is better spent elsewhere”. That would be a real shame, as I enjoy being here, and I enjoy everybody's opinions when they're based on something a little more solid than 12 games of football.

Before you get your flamethrowers out, ask yourself whether the growing antipathy towards the club is because they have a different opinion than you do, and the changes you want to see aren't occurring.

A real disease has permeated our football club, and subsequently this forum, and the panic around when we're going to win a flag is becoming far too great. Whatever happened to just going to the football and enjoying the game? Whatever happened to giving the blokes a bit of moral support? When did the love and passion that we all enjoy as Bulldogs fans become “accepting mediocrity”? When did wearing a premiership scarf around your neck become the requisite for supporting your team?

[LostDoggy]

Some people find those types of post just as tiresome and people complaining that WOOF isn't living up to their expectation of standards.

The moderating team will decide what is an acceptable standard, if you don't agree with what someone has posted then counter it with a well reasoned argument, or if you disagree with it so strongly then don't read the thread. Holding posters to ransom unless they agree with your view point is quite frankly juvenile

Perhaps the moderating team is half the problem.

[Greystache]

Perhaps the moderating team is half the problem.

Your contributions in this thread have been, and continue to be very poor. Personally I'm finding your complaining very tiresome.

Stick to the topic at hand or don't post in this thread.

[LostDoggy]

Your contributions in this thread have been, and continue to be very poor. Personally I'm finding your complaining very tiresome.

Stick to the topic at hand or don't post in this thread.

OK. Fair enough. I'll keep it to myself.

[Mantis]

A real disease has permeated our football club, and subsequently this forum, and the panic around when we're going to win a flag is becoming far too great. Whatever happened to just going to the football and enjoying the game? Whatever happened to giving the blokes a bit of moral support? When did the love and passion that we all enjoy as Bulldogs fans become “accepting mediocrity”? When did wearing a premiership scarf around your neck become the requisite for supporting your team?

I'm not sure that many of us have enjoyed the last 2 weeks which is why threads like this are being created and discussed.... Knee-jerk reactions? Maybe, but watching your team play with the level of skill of an Auskick team and show a complete lack of desire and spirit is pretty depressing and gets us all wanting to find a quick fix.

[Maddog37]

I'm not sure that many of us have enjoyed the last 2 weeks which is why threads like this are being created and discussed.... Knee-jerk reactions? Maybe, but watching your team play with the level of skill of an Auskick team and show a complete lack of desire and spirit is pretty depressing and gets us all wanting to find a quick fix.

You can want to your hearts content but there are no quick fixes. That is the whole point.

[Mantis]

You can want to your hearts content but there are no quick fixes. That is the whole point.

But there are fixes. So we need to determine what they are and puts actions into place... and we have to do it quick smart.

Carrying deadwood both on & off the field has put us in this position, it's time we did something about it.

[LostDoggy]

I think that individualising players forgets that it is the game plan that we have to teach and make instinctively executed by all. A key component of that is experience….it may take 2 or 3 years to work out who can adhere and who can't under the fiercest of pressure.

To that end , it has become patently obvious that we sorely miss Ward, Cooney and a Griffen who could play better if he had these 2 with him. It is patently obvious to me that the effect of not having these players is to get caught in stationary football too much, especially as younger players tire or go missing from the game plan.

What this means is that we have to get from the draft a couple of top quality ball users who also have character and inside toughness.

Without the 3 above mentioned players at their best, other players can struggle or seem less than good. But if we had them and we were winning, these other players would not have the scrutiny they are now getting.

I therefore favour NOT cutting deep at all. We angle to get players to replace those who seem unable to follow the game plan. If Sherman cannot do this, then he has to be gone. If DJ can, then he stays.

I'm all for giving all players as much game time as possible in order to educate them and see if they are capable of learning, whilst also rotating them to allow for best performances.

Roughead on the bench had me scratching my head until I thought maybe we really are experimenting and trying to sort out the pecking order.

In this case maybe we are "tanking" in that our focus is on a 2-3 year strategy. Which I would fully support.

[jeemak]

That's not a bad post at all metal. Good insight into the domino effect associated with the loss of Ward and the demise of Cooney.

The thing about cutting the list deeply is that each year you put it off, the harder it becomes to do. I think it's pretty clear that we're not going to progress with respect to team performances over the next year or so, and we'll need to find a balance between keeping players like Giansiracusa, Murphy, Hargrave, Lake, Cross and Boyd for the sake of experience within the club walls, and ensuring we don't have players within the 22 stifling opportunities for players that are entering "make or break" stages of their careers, such as DJ, Sherman, Skinner, Markovic and Veszpremi.

For the remainder of the year it's imperative the players looking to solidify their careers remain injury free, and be given opportunities within the senior side, in some cases irrespective of whether their form at Williamstown might actually warrant it. We need to give as much game time to players like Howard, Tutt, Veszpremi, Sherman, Skinner, Markovic and DJ as we possibly can, because if we're going to seriously look at them as being capable of fulfilling roles whilst developing over the next season or two we need to be sure they deserve the opportunity. And for mine, the only way they'll prove capable is if they're given senior football in the short term as an incentive.

As far as I'm concerned it's curtains for 2012, and as supporters we're just going to have to ride it out and eat the proverbial while the standard media hacks bemoan our lack of progress. I suspect a reasonable portion of 2013 will provide a similar dose of proverbial medicine.

It's too early to be putting lines through too many players on the list right now. If the club was smart it would realise the year's gone, and certain improvements to the game plan and in some cases player education will need to be foregone until it can figure out who exactly is in a position to provide value to the list over the coming years. Adherence to the current game plan is one thing, though considering talent can't really be taught some lenience should be shown to a small deviation from specific players in the hope they can be educated on the importance of towing the line over the coming preseason (afterall, our senior coache's image or profile to this point has been built on his ability to educate players, maybe the PR could be backed up with outcomes).

Some might call it tanking and others will get frustrated watching us play terribly, though either way the severity of the current situaiton will only be mitigated if the club genuinely understands which players are capable of producing before it slashes the list and brings up to ten new players in.

[LostDoggy]

But there are fixes. So we need to determine what they are and puts actions into place... and we have to do it quick smart.

Carrying deadwood both on & off the field has put us in this position, it's time we did something about it.

Do you mean “we” as the club, or “we” as fans?

[Ghost Dog]

Do you mean “we” as the club, or “we” as fans?

Both!

[Sedat]

Are we forgetting that we have lost Johnson, Eagleton, Hudson, Harbrow, Ward, Hall,Akermanis Gilbee, Morris and Williams from the Rodney Eade days. The required personnel isn't there at the moment and we are in for some tough times until we can rebuild the current list. We are crying out for at least one quality key forward if not two and that should be our first priority. I have faith in BMcC but being realistic we simply do not have a quality list right now.
I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that we lack quality on the list, but Rocket himself had to deal with the loss of Chris Grant, Luke Darcy (who was just about the best ruckman in the caper at the time), Roahn Smith, and Scott West during his tenure. We also lost Nathan Brown (our Callan Ward equivalent young gun) just before Rocket came to the club. Basically our best 6 players were phased out of the team, and despite this we only continued to improve under Rocket to the point where we were in contention up to our eyeballs.

My greatest fear for Macca is that he will be working with one hand tied behind his back because of the lack of support from the head of football operations and the recruiting. List management has been a major failure in the last 2-3 seasons, and it is not a day too soon that we added some head-count to this critical area.

[Ghost Dog]

That's not a bad post at all metal. Good insight into the domino effect associated with the loss of Ward and the demise of Cooney.

The thing about cutting the list deeply is that each year you put it off, the harder it becomes to do. I think it's pretty clear that we're not going to progress with respect to team performances over the next year or so, and we'll need to find a balance between keeping players like Giansiracusa, Murphy, Hargrave, Lake, Cross and Boyd for the sake of experience within the club walls, and ensuring we don't have players within the 22 stifling opportunities for players that are entering "make or break" stages of their careers, such as DJ, Sherman, Skinner, Markovic and Veszpremi.

For the remainder of the year it's imperative the players looking to solidify their careers remain injury free, and be given opportunities within the senior side, in some cases irrespective of whether their form at Williamstown might actually warrant it. We need to give as much game time to players like Howard, Tutt, Veszpremi, Sherman, Skinner, Markovic and DJ as we possibly can, because if we're going to seriously look at them as being capable of fulfilling roles whilst developing over the next season or two we need to be sure they deserve the opportunity. And for mine, the only way they'll prove capable is if they're given senior football in the short term as an incentive.

As far as I'm concerned it's curtains for 2012, and as supporters we're just going to have to ride it out and eat the proverbial while the standard media hacks bemoan our lack of progress. I suspect a reasonable portion of 2013 will provide a similar dose of proverbial medicine.

It's too early to be putting lines through too many players on the list right now. If the club was smart it would realise the year's gone, and certain improvements to the game plan and in some cases player education will need to be foregone until it can figure out who exactly is in a position to provide value to the list over the coming years. Adherence to the current game plan is one thing, though considering talent can't really be taught some lenience should be shown to a small deviation from specific players in the hope they can be educated on the importance of towing the line over the coming preseason (afterall, our senior coache's image or profile to this point has been built on his ability to educate players, maybe the PR could be backed up with outcomes).

Some might call it tanking and others will get frustrated watching us play terribly, though either way the severity of the current situaiton will only be mitigated if the club genuinely understands which players are capable of producing before it slashes the list and brings up to ten new players in.

I'm not sure many fans are as patient as you Jeemak. I see your points from a logical point of view. But not from the view of a 'meat and potatoes' supporter. As others have said, I'm really alarmed at our use of the sub, and just the absence of quite simple things you expect on a footy field. Like kicking for goal, passing, not allowing end to end plays ( manning up ) Metal asked ' are we trying to tank'? and this is a very good question.

Firstly, surely it is the role of our affiliate to sort the wheat from the chaff. I never, ever want to see guys in our team who don't warrant selection through efforts made with Willy. Not sure how our blokes are going to feel about playing beside ' project' players who don't really deserve to be there.

The seagulls are a proud club, with good facilities and a quality coaching staff. If players are not making it there, then forget it. They won't make it at AFL level.


In terms of list assessment, while I appreciate the harm forums like this can do in terms of rumour, I have been on here for a few years now and I know who the well-connected posters obviously are by virtue of the information I have seen them bring to the board over time. Have not heard hardly a positive thing about our list manager since I joined this forum from any of these posters. They all disagree about various things in a robust way, but remain disturbingly united on that topic. An ordinary fan like myself can't help but be swayed by that, when looking at ' what we need to do for 2013'.
Trial by Mob? perhaps. But searching for answers.

[jeemak]

I'm not sure many fans are as patient as you Jeemak. I see your points from a logical point of view. But not from the view of a 'meat and potatoes' supporter. As others have said, I'm really alarmed at our use of the sub, and just the absence of quite simple things you expect on a footy field. Like kicking for goal, passing, not allowing end to end plays ( manning up ) Metal asked ' are we trying to tank'? and this is a very good question.

Firstly, surely it is the role of our affiliate to sort the wheat from the chaff. I never, ever want to see guys in our team who don't warrant selection through efforts made with Willy. Not sure how our blokes are going to feel about playing beside ' project' players who don't really deserve to be there.

The seagulls are a proud club, with good facilities and a quality coaching staff. If players are not making it there, then forget it. They won't make it at AFL level.


In terms of list assessment, while I appreciate the harm forums like this can do in terms of rumour, I have been on here for a few years now and I know who the well-connected posters obviously are by virtue of the information I have seen them bring to the board over time. Have not heard hardly a positive thing about our list manager since I joined this forum from any of these posters. They all disagree about various things in a robust way, but remain disturbingly united on that topic. An ordinary fan like myself can't help but be swayed by that, when looking at ' what we need to do for 2013'.
Trial by Mob? perhaps. But searching for answers.

Sorry GD, can't agree that in all cases Willy form should dictate who does and doesn't get selected for the Bulldogs. And I couldn't care less how some players might feel about playing alongside "project" players. It's their job to do as they're told, week in week out, nothing more and nothing less, and if they have to tolerate having to play alongside a few players that may have been given games for the potential development of the club then so be it.

As far as your first paragraph is concerned, I'm just as alarmed as you are, but I know it's hardly likely to improve short term and that I'll have to deal with it for 12 months until a coherent structure presents itself on the back of developed players (hopefully!).

Your last paragraph you refer to our list manager, are you actually refering to Fantasia?

[Ghost Dog]

Thanks Jeemak

I think Eade had a strong view on 'entry through Willy' but we saw Skinner and a few others pop up this year. It has had it's pros and cons. Have to agree to disagree on that one.

It's the players job to do what they are told to a degree but they are not slaves. It's about having a winning culture, and asking players to buy into that, if they want to.

In terms of our list and list manager, I get a bit confused. How could we keep Hooper and Mulligan, while letting Barlow go? Am I right in blaming the list manager or should I be blaming ex coach?
Sherman, I don't think really adds much and we paid quite a bit for him.
Hooper I have no idea why we gave him a 2 year contract. Just some funny decisions that I see no sense in, regards list and list management. Being a small club with limited membership and financial clout, one goal counts as two, a tackle in the f50 is a goal and one bad decision with drafting a player is worth two.

[jeemak]

Thanks Jeemak

I think Eade had a strong view on 'entry through Willy' but we saw Skinner and a few others pop up this year. It has had it's pros and cons. Have to agree to disagree on that one.

It's the players job to do what they are told to a degree but they are not slaves. It's about having a winning culture, and asking players to buy into that, if they want to.

In terms of our list and list manager, I get a bit confused. How could we keep Hooper and Mulligan, while letting Barlow go? Am I right in blaming the list manager or should I be blaming ex coach?

Sherman, I don't think really adds much and we paid quite a bit for him.

Hooper I have no idea why we gave him a 2 year contract. Just some funny decisions that I see no sense in, regards list and list management. Being a small club with limited membership and financial clout, one goal counts as two, a tackle in the f50 is a goal and one bad decision with drafting a player is worth two.

While I understand players aren't slaves, to suggest they need to do what they're told week in week out isn't akin to whipping them and treating them unfairly. Sure you need them to buy in to a winning culture, though part of the bigger picture of success might be achieved through some players having to sacrifice their own game on a macro level such as playing a week or two at Willi while another player gets a go in the seniors, or on a micro level where a player might have to play a negative role within the seniors even if he views himself as a play maker. Players need to make sacrifices whilst keeping their heads together throughout to build a winning culture.

I think you've answered your own question with respect to list management, particularly in Barlow's case. Players like Hooper, Moles and Mulligan were given contracts for longer than they should have been, and this has effectively squeezed Barlow out (only if you think he deserved a spot on the list).

I hope Jason McCartney can professionalise this area of our club very quickly, and put an end to the baffling list management decisions we've seen over the last year or two.

[Ghost Dog]

While I understand players aren't slaves, to suggest they need to do what they're told week in week out isn't akin to whipping them and treating them unfairly. Sure you need them to buy in to a winning culture, though part of the bigger picture of success might be achieved through some players having to sacrifice their own game on a macro level such as playing a week or two at Willi while another player gets a go in the seniors, or on a micro level where a player might have to play a negative role within the seniors even if he views himself as a play maker. Players need to make sacrifices whilst keeping their heads together throughout to build a winning culture.

I think you've answered your own question with respect to list management, particularly in Barlow's case. Players like Hooper, Moles and Mulligan were given contracts for longer than they should have been, and this has effectively squeezed Barlow out (only if you think he deserved a spot on the list).

I hope Jason McCartney can professionalise this area of our club very quickly, and put an end to the baffling list management decisions we've seen over the last year or two.

Well I think Barlow would have been handier than a few others we have on our list.
I get your points. Ok, name names Mr Jeemak. Which players do you want under the microscope, irrespective of Willy form this season?

[jeemak]

Well I think Barlow would have been handier than a few others we have on our list.
I get your points. Ok, name names Mr Jeemak. Which players do you want under the microscope, irrespective of Willy form this season?

Mr GD, I suppose it's time for me to have a crack isn't it, rather than skirting around the edges!

Immediate departures for mine are (please bare in mind I'm not privvy to contract positions of the following):

Mulligan - hasn't developed, probably don't need to delve into this any further

Moles - I find him too one sided and it does affect his ability to move the ball, though he is quick. Doesn't get enough of it, and we're not in a position to be keeping "depth" players like him on the list right now

Hooper - Still suffering from a nightmare preparation prior to 2011, that saw him arrive after the holidays significantly heavier than he could afford to be. Ended up with OP over the most recent preseason and couldn't afford not to have a solid run at a career without fitness or perceived commitment

Skinner - Speculative players like Zeph are just that, and they don't always work out. If he has a solid second half of the season then maybe a rookie spot might save him

Gilbee - Whilst a great servant to the club, and a potential candidate to assist some of the younger guys through example of ball use I just can't see him being given game time while we're developing

Giansiracusa - I wouldn't be surprised if his contract is paid out and he retired. I'd certainly be prepared for this if the club decided to offer him a coaching role rather than a playing one. His body seems shot to me (he's often seen stretching like he has old man's OP - I know personally that can end a career pretty quickly), and I think he would be of most benefit to the club as a mentor rather than a reliable forward considering that

Hargrave - I think he'll retire. He's a player again, that has been an excellent servant of the club, though with Morris likely to return next year for a final season or two we really can't hold another spot in the back six open for a non-developing player


Who I'm Concerned About:

Sherman - He can add goal kicking ability and quick ball movement to the side, though it seems his confidence has been beaten out of him, and his work rate has suffered as a result

DJ - Without a clear run at things in the second half of the year it would be hard to justify him not making way for a rookie like JJ

Panos - A player I've not seen much of, so it's only his lack of exposure at senior level that makes me nominate him as being vulnerable. From reports he's played all over the place at Willi, and I can't be sure whether that's because he's not suited to one specific role within the team, or whether he's being sampled across the ground in order to plan his development for next year


Without watching Willi live that's the best I can do.

[jeemak]

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that we lack quality on the list, but Rocket himself had to deal with the loss of Chris Grant, Luke Darcy (who was just about the best ruckman in the caper at the time), Roahn Smith, and Scott West during his tenure. We also lost Nathan Brown (our Callan Ward equivalent young gun) just before Rocket came to the club. Basically our best 6 players were phased out of the team, and despite this we only continued to improve under Rocket to the point where we were in contention up to our eyeballs.

My greatest fear for Macca is that he will be working with one hand tied behind his back because of the lack of support from the head of football operations and the recruiting. List management has been a major failure in the last 2-3 seasons, and it is not a day too soon that we added some head-count to this critical area.

I brushed over this post earlier, but you make an excellent point in the bolded section.

Rocket benefitted from a couple of excellent draft picks in Griffen and Cooney along the way, though it was his ability to manage and develop his cattle with the help of some canny rookie upgrades and contract management provided by Clayton that provided the impetus for our charge.

Jason McCartney's influence will be so important over the coming years. I'm reasonably confident Dalrymple has made some solid selections with limited picks at his disposal. It will be interesting to see how these guys go with high draft picks to use.

[Mantis]

Jason McCartney's influence will be so important over the coming years. I'm reasonably confident Dalrymple has made some solid selections with limited picks at his disposal. It will be interesting to see how these guys go with high draft picks to use.

I'm not so sure.

It looks like he botched the draft at his 1st attempt considering that Howard & Tutt seem along way off from being the players we hoped they would be.

In year 2 he had 2 F/S selctions so who knows what we would have taken, the later picks haven't worked... Dahlhaus was a great rookie pick, but we did skip past him a few times, but so did everyone else.

Too early to tell from last year, but word is that his hands were tied with the selection of Smith,

No doubt he must get the picks at this years draft right... If he doesn't we are in for years of pain.

[Hot_Doggies]

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that we lack quality on the list, but Rocket himself had to deal with the loss of Chris Grant, Luke Darcy (who was just about the best ruckman in the caper at the time), Roahn Smith, and Scott West during his tenure. We also lost Nathan Brown (our Callan Ward equivalent young gun) just before Rocket came to the club. Basically our best 6 players were phased out of the team, and despite this we only continued to improve under Rocket to the point where we were in contention up to our eyeballs.
.

When Grant,Darcy,Smith etc retired our next batch of players (Gilbee,Boyd,Cross etc) were the perfect age.

Massive gap in our list now, the kids are just kids....

[azabob]

I'm not so sure.

It looks like he botched the draft at his 1st attempt considering that Howard & Tutt seem along way off from being the players we hoped they would be.

In year 2 he had 2 F/S selctions so who knows what we would have taken, the later picks haven't worked... Dahlhaus was a great rookie pick, but we did skip past him a few times, but so did everyone else.

Too early to tell from last year, but word is that his hands were tied with the selection of Smith,

No doubt he must get the picks at this years draft right... If he doesn't we are in for years of pain.

In fairness Tutt has been injured for majority of the season.

[Mantis]

In fairness Tutt has been injured for majority of the season.

That was taken into consideration with my assessment.

[LostDoggy]

I brushed over this post earlier, but you make an excellent point in the bolded section.

Rocket benefitted from a couple of excellent draft picks in Griffen and Cooney along the way, though it was his ability to manage and develop his cattle with the help of some canny rookie upgrades and contract management provided by Clayton that provided the impetus for our charge.

Jason McCartney's influence will be so important over the coming years. I'm reasonably confident Dalrymple has made some solid selections with limited picks at his disposal. It will be interesting to see how these guys go with high draft picks to use.


In fairness to list management vs drafting, no one predicted Harbrow & Wards departures and Cooneys knee in the 5 year list management. If those extraordinary events hadn't occurred we'd still be playing finals footy this year. Think we'd be closer to a St.Kilda/Geelong type situation just kind of hanging in with a chance.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

In fairness to list management vs drafting, no one predicted Harbrow & Wards departures and Cooneys knee in the 5 year list management. If those extraordinary events hadn't occurred we'd still be playing finals footy this year. Think we'd be closer to a St.Kilda/Geelong type situation just kind of hanging in with a chance.

You could also add the losses through injuries to Morris and Williams which has left us bereft of enough experience in the line up.
Yours is a far more realistic approach than the many critics currently appearing on Woof.

[jeemak]

In fairness to list management vs drafting, no one predicted Harbrow & Wards departures and Cooneys knee in the 5 year list management. If those extraordinary events hadn't occurred we'd still be playing finals footy this year. Think we'd be closer to a St.Kilda/Geelong type situation just kind of hanging in with a chance.


You could also add the losses through injuries to Morris and Williams which has left us bereft of enough experience in the line up.
Yours is a far more realistic approach than the many critics currently appearing on Woof.

All of the above is fine, and I agree.

My beef is moreso with contract management for certain players, rather than draft selections over the last few years.

[Sedat]

In fairness to list management vs drafting, no one predicted Harbrow & Wards departures. The bloke in charge of player contract negotiations and list management at our club at the time certainly couldn't see it coming - although in fairness he was busy renegotiating contracts for those sprightly youngsters, Akermanis and Eagleton, at the same time. I'm sure the same bloke won't see Minson's departure (if it eventuates) coming at the end of this season either :rolleyes:

[azabob]

The bloke in charge of player contract negotiations and list management at our club at the time certainly couldn't see it coming - although in fairness he was busy renegotiating contracts for those sprightly youngsters, Akermanis and Eagleton, at the same time. I'm sure the same bloke won't see Minson's departure (if it eventuates) coming at the end of this season either :rolleyes:

Surely, McCartney would be doing the contracts? Surely the footy department would have some influnence over these decisions.

Having said all that it does appear Minson is all but gone....

[Sockeye Salmon]

Surely, McCartney would be doing the contracts? Surely the footy department would have some influnence over these decisions.

Having said all that it does appear Minson is all but gone....

Nope. That mental giant James Fantasia.

You might not want Scott Clayton back as a recruiter but I'd have him back to do contracts in a heartbeat.

[EasternWest]

Having said all that it does appear Minson is all but gone....

I keep reading that all throughout this board lately. Have I missd something that people are so confident Minson will leave?

There's a bunch of circumstantial stuff that people seem to be reading into about his treatment (shopped around, mothergate, one year offer), but has someone who knows someone who knows someone got the "Will's leaving" oil from Will?

I'm not meaning to be contrary by asking, it just seems to be a consistent theme of pessimism and I'm wondering if it's due to recent events or if it's based on confident info from insiders?

[Ghost Dog]

Would you ever welcome Plough back as an assistant?

He fits the criteria - who else is out there? Maybe Ratten once he gets let go at season's end (that has to happen surely)

I would like to see Wallace back as an assistant. I'm not sold that our current coach has enough technical nous on game day. Some decisions are baffling. It would also heal a long standing rift in the club and reflect well on us.

After last night, Carlton will probably have to keep Ratten for another year. They are good at beating Collingwood!

[AndrewP6]

I keep reading that all throughout this board lately. Have I missd something that people are so confident Minson will leave?

There's a bunch of circumstantial stuff that people seem to be reading into about his treatment (shopped around, mothergate, one year offer), but has someone who knows someone who knows someone got the "Will's leaving" oil from Will?

I'm not meaning to be contrary by asking, it just seems to be a consistent theme of pessimism and I'm wondering if it's due to recent events or if it's based on confident info from insiders?

I just said in another thread: "If it's on the Internet, it must be true".

Remember Lake was gone too? Playing for Hawthorn, so they say ;)

[Eastdog]

I just said in another thread: "If it's on the Internet, it must be true".

Remember Lake was gone too? Playing for Hawthorn, so they say ;)

For sure there were rumors flying about Lake going to Hawthorn. Of course nothing happened. That's the media for you.

[azabob]

I keep reading that all throughout this board lately. Have I missd something that people are so confident Minson will leave?

There's a bunch of circumstantial stuff that people seem to be reading into about his treatment (shopped around, mothergate, one year offer), but has someone who knows someone who knows someone got the "Will's leaving" oil from Will?

I'm not meaning to be contrary by asking, it just seems to be a consistent theme of pessimism and I'm wondering if it's due to recent events or if it's based on confident info from insiders?

From my perspective we are over half way through the season and we still haven't signed one of our best performers for the year. I am also concerned that he is a free agent and of late (ward & harbrow) we haven't been able to keep talent at our club when their are special rules that allow players to walk.


I just said in another thread: "If it's on the Internet, it must be true".

Remember Lake was gone too? Playing for Hawthorn, so they say ;)

Remember they said Ward was gone and Harbrow was gone, and where are they playing these days?

[ledge]

Personally i think he will stay, he has waited long enough to be the number 1 ruck at our club and now he finally is. then he leaves?

[AndrewP6]

From my perspective we are over half way through the season and we still haven't signed one of our best performers for the year. I am also concerned that he is a free agent and of late (ward & harbrow) we haven't been able to keep talent at our club when their are special rules that allow players to walk.



Remember they said Ward was gone and Harbrow was gone, and where are they playing these days?

If you say "He's leaving" enough times about enough people, you're bound to get it right eventually. (thats not a dig at you, by the way)

[azabob]

If you say "He's leaving" enough times about enough people, you're bound to get it right eventually. (thats not a dig at you, by the way)

Very true, I'm still the fool who thought Ward would stay...

[Remi Moses]

I would like to see Wallace back as an assistant. I'm not sold that our current coach has enough technical nous on game day. Some decisions are baffling. It would also heal a long standing rift in the club and reflect well on us.

After last night, Carlton will probably have to keep Ratten for another year. They are good at beating Collingwood!

To quote JP McEnroe "You can't be serious"So should we appoint Scotty West as well?
Who cares how it reflects on us? Be nice to have a senior assistant, but not for sentimental purposes.

[azabob]

To quote JP McEnroe "You can't be serious"So should we appoint Scotty West as well?
Who cares how it reflects on us? Be nice to have a senior assistant, but not for sentimental purposes.

Wallace wouldn't be hired on sentiment. Clearly has a footy brain. Is he the right fit for us, that is an entirely different question.

[Ghost Dog]

To quote JP McEnroe "You can't be serious"So should we appoint Scotty West as well?
Who cares how it reflects on us? Be nice to have a senior assistant, but not for sentimental purposes.

Fair enough. So how do you reckon he would be as an assistant?

[Remi Moses]

Fair enough. So how do you reckon he would be as an assistant?

Probably okay, but I heard him say a while ago that if he got involved it would be a Footy ops manager role. ( Neil Balme role)Heard a little bit of him tonight and agree we have a massive hole in our list.

[Ghost Dog]

Probably okay, but I heard him say a while ago that if he got involved it would be a Footy ops manager role. ( Neil Balme role)Heard a little bit of him tonight and agree we have a massive hole in our list.

In regards to the middle age bracket? What was the context of the said ' hole'. We have several....

[Remi Moses]

In regards to the middle age bracket? What was the context of the said ' hole'. We have several....

The 23 -27 age bracket. Sorry for being a little to aggressive in my response to Wallace GD

[Ghost Dog]

The 23 -27 age bracket. Sorry for being a little to aggressive in my response to Wallace GD

Nah you're right mate. Robust debate is what it's all about. Was this on SEN this interview?

[bornadog]

The 23 -27 age bracket. Sorry for being a little to aggressive in my response to Wallace GD

Gee Wallace must be very astute he has unravelled the mystery, we need better players in the 23 - 27 year bracket.:rolleyes:

No thanks, we don't need him and his ego back at the kennel in the footy department.

[LostDoggy]

Somebody has probably already done this but thought I'd take a look at our draft history and see who made it and who didn't. The descriptions are really just my opinions so please feel free to add something or correct me as I'm sure there are much better informed woofers here than me! Have to say that 2005, 2006 and 2007 drafts are killing us at the moment.

2002

4: Tim Walsh - Played one game?
17: Cameron Faulkner - showed glimpses but never improved enough to make it
20: Will Minson - Has become a solid contributor. Future uncertain.
33: Brad Murphy - From memory, played a few games and showed a bit but never went on.
35: Scott Bassett - Played some good games as a stop gap in defence.
49: Cameron Wight - didn't become the player that potential suggested he would.

2003

1: Adam Cooney - Brownlow Medalist and still on list but cut down by injury.
4: Farren Ray - Didn't set the world on fire with dogs and subsequently traded to St Kilda.
50: Iszac Thompson - Didn't make it
62: Passed

2004

3: Ryan Griffen - gun and important contributor to this day.
6: Tom Williams - terrible luck with injury throughout career. Has shown good form at times and hopefully has a lot of upside.
22: Jesse Wells - didn't make it.
38: Damien McCormack - didn't make it
54: Stephen Tiller - played some solid games but didn't come on enough

2005

11: Shaun Higgins - A tease up to this point but injuries can excuse a little.
27: Dylan Addison - 2012 regular due to being hard at it. Not much upside imo
46: Travis Baird - can't recall him doing much, might have had off field issues??
55: Brett Montgomery - gave good service in his twilight years
57: Michael West - can't even remember him!

2006

11: Andejs Everitt - showed a little but lacked intensity. traded to Swans. Still not sold on him. Wasted pick again.
45: Brennan Stack - Showed glimpses but never went on with it.
61: Josh Hill - Thought he would become something but was plagued by inconsistency and traded to West Coast where he has grabbed his opportunity and is playing well.
66: Mal Lynch - Wasted pick on immature (by all reports) player. Has become a good player in VFL as he matured.
76: Paul O'Shea - I believe we took him early so we didn't miss out?? Couldn't cut it at AFL level.

2007

5: Jarrad Grant - has struggled to make an impact despite showing promise and x factor at times. Has been locked in the gym in an attempt to bulk up. Hope he makes it.
19: Callan Ward - super kid who would have been a club captain imo. Took the big GWS offer.
35: Sam Reid - no good and subsequently sent to GWS
43: Easton Wood - smokey pick who has grabbed his opportunity and appears to have a future.
48: Jarrad Boumann - played some ok footy at VFL level from memory but was lazy and immature by all reports. Now playing some ok footy for Hawthorn.
63: Guy O'Keefe - good VFL player but off-field troubles cost him a career.
67: Passed

2008

14: Ayce Cordy - starting to show us what he can do. Bright future.
31: Jordan Roughead - Big guys take longer and I'm confident he will become something.
32: Liam Jones - see above

2009

15: Christian Howard - a bit out of the blue. Jury still out but hopeful.
31: Jason Tutt - definite promise and worth persevering with.
63: Lukas Markovic - handy back up defender who has taken his opportunity and performed admirably.
76: Shane Thorne - smokey pic, cut down by round 1 VFL injury. Gonski
86: Liam Picken (PR) - great player, enough said.
92: James Mulligan (PR) - serious doubts here.

2010

22: Mitch Wallis - going to be a solid player for a long time.
41: Thomas Liberatore - see Mitch Wallis!
74: Jayden Schofield - looked to have some good pace and rebound but off-field woes ruined a promising career
88: Zeph Skinner - x factor indigenous player who will take time and patience. Career on a knife edge imo.
102: Brodie Moles (PR) was lively in his first season with the club. Injuries have not helped. May struggle to stay on list.
110: Andrew Hooper - List clogger, see you later.

2011

17: Clay Smith - great inside mid, skills need work. Not the speedy ball user we're in need of but still a solid player with good future.
39: Michael Talia - strong kid, good defender but kicking needs work. Should make it.
49: Daniel Pearce - good speed, played a game early in season. Good signs.
57: Tory Dickson - mature age recruit who is a good goal kicker. Smart player too. Would be a great asset in a forward line functioning better than ours currently is.
70: Luke Dahlhaus (PR) - jet with a big future.
73: Matthew Panos (PR) showed a lot in VFL last year. Good set shot and strong lead. Haven't heard much about him this year. Could go either way.

[bornadog]

So from 50 players picked since 2002 (not sure where Harbrow is), around 30 still playing for either us or another club, or half still on our list without those players. I wonder how other clubs fair with their recruiting success or otherwise.

I guess my OP is about the future and not about, what we could have , should have or didn't do.:)

[Sedat]

Gee Wallace must be very astute he has unravelled the mystery, we need better players in the 23 - 27 year bracket.:rolleyes:

No thanks, we don't need him and his ego back at the kennel in the footy department.
To replace Fantasia? I would do it in a heartbeat.

[LostDoggy]

So from 50 players picked since 2002 (not sure where Harbrow is), around 30 still playing for either us or another club, or half still on our list without those players. I wonder how other clubs fair with their recruiting success or otherwise.

I guess my OP is about the future and not about, what we could have , should have or didn't do.:)

Harbrow was obviously promoted somewhere in there too. I know the post doesn't exactly fit this thread but there is a place for looking back and hopefully not repeating some of the mistakes of the past. This is easier said than done given how hard recruiting is. :)

I think we need a mid age player from another club to fill a hole and smart ball users in the draft. We have the V8 in the car, now we need to give the duco a good polish and add some flash wheels.

I watched Nic Nat this morning and I think our club is crying out for a player with some personality and flair to get bums on seats. Every club would like this I know but we just don't have a player like that anymore. It's a team sport but big personalities attract fans including kids. I've called North Melbourne 'home brand' over the last 5 years but I feel that our team is not too dissimilar now.

[bornadog]

I think we need a mid age player from another club to fill a hole and smart ball users in the draft. We have the V8 in the car, now we need to give the duco a good polish and add some flash wheels. .

I would love us to make a play for a big name player and offer some big bucks. Someone like a Beams (I know unlikely), but if you don't go for it you won't get them.

[bornadog]

To replace Fantasia? I would do it in a heartbeat.

If it was a choice between the two, agree. I think we need someone that is really top notch in this area.

[bornadog]

I appreciate there is a thread for delistings etc but this thread is about an overhaul of the club:

President and the board

Need to find a passionate Bulldogs rich businessman who can bring in more sponsorship and connections. One that will stand up for our club and take us to the next level. Half the board to retire and new blood to come in.

We want all home games at Eithad and we must build the brand in the Western Suburbs, and build it aggressively.

We want the club to stand up to the AFL and not be bullied around. We have existed at the Western Reserve since 1883 and we are here to stay (in the AFL)

Coaching

Need a very good assistant to Macca who can help with strategy on game day and be his right hand man. Must seriously look at the whole coaching panel under Macca. He can't do it on his own.

Head of Football

Time for a change here as well. He must share the blame of our failure to make a Grand Final in the past 5 years when we had our chances. Really should have been dismissed at the end of last year.

Recruiters

They have failed us, we need to search far and wide and try to get one of the best to the Kennel.

Players

We need to cut deep at the end of the year, so here are my delistings:

Vez, DJ, Moles, Gilbee, Hargrave, Hooper, Mulligan, Skinner and if I had my way, Addison and perhaps Gia. Hill is in an unfortunate situation as he hasn't played senior footy yet and the other talls are ahead of him, so Hill goes as well.

That would be at least 10 players. These guys are not going to take us to another level so we need fresh blood. I would draft kids as well as throwing some big money at a ready made player, not one on the fringe but I mean a good player that is in the best 22 for a top eight team.

I would also put on notice that 2013 is the last year for Murphy, Cross, Boyd. I would reassess Morris and Cooney to see if they are up to the rigours of AFL for 2013.

If this year is a refresh, next year must be a rebuild.


Your thoughts are welcome on 2013 and beyond.

May have to add Howard to the list.

[Mofra]

I watched Nic Nat this morning and I think our club is crying out for a player with some personality and flair to get bums on seats. Every club would like this I know but we just don't have a player like that anymore. It's a team sport but big personalities attract fans including kids. I've called North Melbourne 'home brand' over the last 5 years but I feel that our team is not too dissimilar now.
One of the reasons Dahlhaus was an instant hit - our only best 22 player with serious X factor.

[G-Mo77]

May have to add Howard to the list.

It's easy to say that after a few poor performances but he had some good games not that long ago as well. Drafted in 2009 and I think he was injured for a lot of 2010, he's only played 12 AFL games on top of that. I think we have to persist with him for at least another season. Because he was taken so high he's judged pretty harshly.

I had him as an out in my Round 17 Changes but I'd be happy to leave him in for the remainder of the season.

[chef]

It's easy to say that after a few poor performances but he had some good games not that long ago as well. Drafted in 2009 and I think he was injured for a lot of 2010, he's only played 12 AFL games on top of that. I think we have to persist with him for at least another season. Because he was taken so high he's judged pretty harshly.

I had him as an out in my Round 17 Changes but I'd be happy to leave him in for the remainder of the season.

May I ask what you see in him?

To me he's slow, extremely one sided, not a very smart player(in terms of where to position himself and which options he takes) and his disposal is massively over rated. I don't see a position he could play.

[bornadog]

May I ask what you see in him?

To me he's slow, not a very smart player(in terms of where to position himself and which options he takes) and his disposal is massively over rated. I don't see a position he could play.

It is hard to rule on someone with only 12 games, so agree we need to assess at the end of the year, but he is frustrating.

A classic example was when he marked the ball 55 metres out and instead of kicking the ball forward, or even having a shot with his so called big left foot, his first reaction was to look around then he stepped off the line, had to play on. The ball was kicked backwards several times ending up near the back 50, then a turnover and the Hawks kicked a goal.

[Hotdog60]

It is hard to rule on someone with only 12 games, so agree we need to assess at the end of the year, but he is frustrating.

A classic example was when he marked the ball 55 metres out and instead of kicking the ball forward, or even having a shot with his so called big left foot, his first reaction was to look around then he stepped off the line, had to play on. The ball was kicked backwards several times ending up near the back 50, then a turnover and the Hawks kicked a goal.

My thought on the day was that he is supposed to have this great left peg and I haven't yet seen him use it with any damage attached to it. What would Daniel Rich have done in the same position. My guess would have been a shot.

[Maddog37]

Depends on what the coaches have told them to do. It seems to me he was not sure of making it and preferred to keep the ball in our hands rather than bomb to a contest. It was not him that turned it over.

[G-Mo77]

May I ask what you see in him?

To me he's slow, extremely one sided, not a very smart player(in terms of where to position himself and which options he takes) and his disposal is massively over rated. I don't see a position he could play.

I've got the same concerns as everyone else but I want to give him more than 12 games before making judgements.

[Desipura]

It is hard to rule on someone with only 12 games, so agree we need to assess at the end of the year, but he is frustrating.

A classic example was when he marked the ball 55 metres out and instead of kicking the ball forward, or even having a shot with his so called big left foot, his first reaction was to look around then he stepped off the line, had to play on. The ball was kicked backwards several times ending up near the back 50, then a turnover and the Hawks kicked a goal.

It indicates to me that he is seriously lacking in confidence. This is what happens when an inexperienced team of players is playing in a struggling side. They are afraid of making mistakes and therefore try and take the safe option.
I can vividly recall a game at Etihad in the Rohde era when all we did the majority of the game was kick backwards, nobody wanted to take the game on.
It was one of the worst games I have witnessed, and I have witnessed some shockers!

[jeemak]

It indicates to me that he is seriously lacking in confidence. This is what happens when an inexperienced team of players is playing in a struggling side. They are afraid of making mistakes and therefore try and take the safe option.
I can vividly recall a game at Etihad in the Rohde era when all we did the majority of the game was kick backwards, nobody wanted to take the game on.
It was one of the worst games I have witnessed, and I have witnessed some shockers!

Good point Des.

[Sedat]

It indicates to me that he is seriously lacking in confidence. This is what happens when an inexperienced team of players is playing in a struggling side. They are afraid of making mistakes and therefore try and take the safe option.
I can vividly recall a game at Etihad in the Rohde era when all we did the majority of the game was kick backwards, nobody wanted to take the game on.
It was one of the worst games I have witnessed, and I have witnessed some shockers!Which game are you referring to in 2012? All of the St Kilda, Sydney, Essendon, Brisbane and Hawthorn matches have been as inept performances as any during the Rhode era, and I can only go back as far as the Royce Hart era to find so many utterly non-competitive performances in the one season. It is alarming to be so pathetic every 3rd week on average this season.

[bornadog]

It indicates to me that he is seriously lacking in confidence. This is what happens when an inexperienced team of players is playing in a struggling side. They are afraid of making mistakes and therefore try and take the safe option.
I can vividly recall a game at Etihad in the Rohde era when all we did the majority of the game was kick backwards, nobody wanted to take the game on.
It was one of the worst games I have witnessed, and I have witnessed some shockers!

Yes, your right about the confidence thing. I was discussing with a mate at the game that it must be hard to develop young players when they come into a struggling side. You look at Collingwood who have continually been adding young players into the team for the past 5, 6 years. Even in the years they played in the prelims but didn't make the GF, they still debuted half dozen young guys. Do you think some one like Steele would play as well if they were with Melbourne, Port or even us?

[Bulldog Joe]

Which game are you referring to in 2012? All of the St Kilda, Sydney, Essendon, Brisbane and Hawthorn matches have been as inept performances as any during the Rhode era, and I can only go back as far as the Royce Hart era to find so many utterly non-competitive performances in the one season. It is alarming to be so pathetic every 3rd week on average this season.

Actually even more parthetic to be so inept for 5 weeks in 6.
Truly alarmng that we appear to have no idea what to do.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

I watched Nic Nat this morning and I think our club is crying out for a player with some personality and flair to get bums on seats. Every club would like this I know but we just don't have a player like that anymore. It's a team sport but big personalities attract fans including kids. I've called North Melbourne 'home brand' over the last 5 years but I feel that our team is not too dissimilar now.

The last one we it was Aker, a master stoke at the time, then we asked him to stop the handstands, stop writing stuff that we didn't agree with.

I'm not sure that our club has the people at the helm that are able to work with these type of guys.

[jeemak]

Which game are you referring to in 2012? All of the St Kilda, Sydney, Essendon, Brisbane and Hawthorn matches have been as inept performances as any during the Rhode era, and I can only go back as far as the Royce Hart era to find so many utterly non-competitive performances in the one season. It is alarming to be so pathetic every 3rd week on average this season.

It is a fine line between implementing a game plan or having players work a certain way towards future growth, having one eye on the scoreboard or weekly results and falling into the hole we have found ourselves.

Players will get confidence from results, and the time might have come for us to grind out more competitive performances over the coming weeks and forego some of the future planning with respect to game style and player development.

I'm asking myself how this might be achieved, and I really don't know. The problem I have is I don't have any bloody idea about how we're trying to actually play at the moment. I can't see it.

What I do know is from the start of the second quarter our midfielders allowed themselves to be mollested by Hawthorn. Having all of Boyd, Cross, Wallis and Liberatore playing with a greater emphasis on shutting down their opponents and making them scrap for the ball would balance things out a little. Teams are killing us on the spread and our defensive six is paying the price for that. The ease at which goals are being scored against us is alarming, and it pisses me off no end seeing it start from the middle and around midfield contests with no resistance from the players within this area.

We're not going to improve the supply to the forward line, but that's not a huge concern for me right now because we're already FUBAR in that area anyway.

[Ghost Dog]

What do we need to do??

Ditch any connection with b****y pokies. Bad Karma....


And while we are at it, Toss who let the dogs out into the skip bin and adopt this as our new game day anthem

HGddBRTetNk

DOGS of WAR ( Motorhead )

Try or fail, or succeed (Fight)
We must be an iron wall (Hold)
When the heart receives the call (We go)
We are the least of them (Fight)
We are few, but we are brave (Yes)

[macca]

May have to add Howard to the list.

Is Rendell available ? Some of his picks for adelaide of been inspired. Dangerfield ( 17 year old out of nowhere, and stayed in geelong to finish high school), Van belo, Bernie Vince, Tippet, Walker(scholarship) , Gunston(trade) , Talia, Shaw,Douhgty(221 games) , Janesch, emerging Josh Jenkins, even our beloved Ben Hudson, went all out to get Jacobs. I was talking with a one-eyed adelaide supporter friend, and he complained that they never had a father son pick. Carlton robbed them of Gibbs( probably did them a favour). What are they doing right, which we are completely and utterly lacking in draft selection strategy? Why do we keep picking players early because we get wind of another team going to draft ? Howard, Wood, Thorne... for heaven sake!

Here are some of their rookie picks and games since 2007.
Ricky Henderson 28
Matthew Jaensch 33
Luke Thompson 11
Ian Callinan 16
Matthew Wright 31
Tim Mcintyre 1
Jarred lyons 3
Brodie Martin: 16
Aidan Riley 5 (NSW scholarship)

Jared Petrenko Adelaide 49
Edward Curnow (left for Carlton)

[macca]

We should look to clean out like richmond did over the last 3 years:
2011 - 3 main draft, 6 rookies, 1 preseason = 10 players , Ivan Maric pick up was moneyball

2010- 6 main draft , 3 rookies , 1preseaon (bachar houli) players = 10 players

2009 - 8 main 6 rookies (dustin martin pick 3) = 14 players, which is staggering 1/3 of their list!

in 3 years they have turned over 34 players.

so last year, similar pattern for us, 6

[LostDoggy]

Yes the Richmond model is working so well.

[LostDoggy]

The Richmond model is finals twice in the last 30 or so years. Bottom out so you get a few good draft picks,get your president to make goal the club could never achieve. Meanwhile aim for 9th and lose to a club that hasn't won a game since they last beat you. Put it all in 5 year plan.
Great stuff.
If we are to model ourselves on another club make it a successful one.
Btw Grant was drafted 1 year after Riewoldt. We pick Everitt that year on the pick before. 11 other picks missed him before that. Captain hindsight.

[LostDoggy]

What do we need to do??

Ditch any connection with b****y pokies. Bad Karma....


And while we are at it, Toss who let the dogs out into the skip bin and adopt this as our new game day anthem

HGddBRTetNk

DOGS of WAR ( Motorhead )

Try or fail, or succeed (Fight)
We must be an iron wall (Hold)
When the heart receives the call (We go)
We are the least of them (Fight)
We are few, but we are brave (Yes)


:D I like it Ghost, I can see Gia and Higgins trying to sing it now....