Its Official - We Have Gone Backwards - No Improvement on 2011

[bornadog]

Am I wrong and just an angry supporter?

The Facts:

* I can't see any improvement in any player in 2012 over 2011 - ok maybe Wallis/Libba

* The game plan is worse than under Rocket

* The stats 2011 over 2012, are no better or even worse:

-- CP - average up by 3 - wow we really are smashing them

-- Clearances up by 2 per game

-- Tackles down by 2 per game

-- Rebound 50 and inside 50 same, but scoring down - ie average goals last year 14, this year 10

-- Up in hitouts, marks, and disposals.

* Ageing players and no one to replace them for at least 3 to 4 years (until they get some experience)

I feel we have made zero progress this year

[LostDoggy]

Don't agree, sure what we are seeing now is horrible to watch... but we need to fast track the development of our younger players and sort out who to persist with and who to delist at end of year - and this is exactly what we are doing. I think the younger midfield brigade will really benefit from this years experience, and our talls have had some valuable development as well. The development of our younger players is where we have improved and this should have happened 2 years back.

We are heading into a critical draft/trade period an it will be interesting to see how the club approaches things, bottom line is our list just isn't up to scratch at present.

[bornadog]

Don't agree, sure what we are seeing now is horrible to watch... but we need to fast track the development of our younger players and sort out who to persist with and who to delist at end of year - and this is exactly what we are doing. I think the younger midfield brigade will really benefit from this years experience, and our talls have had some valuable development as well. The development of our younger players is where we have improved and this should have happened 2 years back.

We are heading into a critical draft/trade period an it will be interesting to see how the club approaches things, bottom line is our list just isn't up to scratch at present.

Looking at the stats, we were told we were going to be going in harder and winning the CP and clearances, yet we have not improved in this area at all. The game plan, is there one?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It was always likely that things would get worse before they would get better, so in terms of those statistics, I am not overly concerned. As we know, we've lost some key players over the last few years whilst others (Cooney and Morris) are injured. The decline was to be expected -- but it's the way we're playing which is so disappointing.

We're 16 weeks into this season and I still don't know what our game plan is besides placing an emphasis on contested footy. We've talked about needing to get better and harder to score against defensively, but there's been no improvement whatsoever in this area. We have continually sacrificed any kind of forward structure to more or less flood the back half, but we are still leaking plenty of goals. Therefore, not only are we incredibly poor as a team defensively, we also aren't allowing our players to learn the defensive nature individually. I remember when Rocket first came to the club and was criticised for not using loose numbers in the back half, even when we were under great pressure. His reasoning was that the back six had to learn how to cope defensively as an individual, before learning to help one another out as a defensive unit. As a result, we had one of the best backlines in the league with Lake, Morris, Hargrave, Gilbee, Williams, Harbrow, Murphy etc. all rotating through there.

Yesterday when I saw Higgins being moved to the back half, I thought why? What are we trying to do -- save the game? Hawthorn were piling on the goals and whenever we did get the ball, we were significantly outnumbered up the ground that we had no alternative but to chip sideways or backwards. Higgins was one of the best on the ground in the first half, moving him to defence achieved nothing. If we moved him to the midfield -- fine, I could understand that. But by putting our most dangerous forward in the back half, all it did was take pressure off Hawthorn's back six, allowing them to push their press further up the ground.

It's issues like these that we are seeing every week which really disappoint me, and make going to the footy a chore. I don't mind losing -- so long as there's some kind of plan we're working towards. I just can't see what that is at the moment; I would argue that we look worse than we did in the 03/04 years, or at least similar, given our complete lack of structure all over the ground.

[Desipura]

This is premature evaluation. The list was in need of an overhaul yet we decided to keep some ageing players whilst retaining other players that are not up to AFL standard.
This is normal practice for a new coach coming in, he inherited the list and wanted to make a judgment call 12 months later, I do not have an issue with this.

As has been stated on numerous occasions we need to cut deep, starting with the likes of Hargrave, Gia and Gilbee who all look like they are picking up their pension check.

[SonofScray]

We are worse off right now I agree. I think we are paying the price for being too generous with some players and trying to plug gaps in the hope of a quick turn around. We've granted some on our list untouchable status, when maybe we'd have been better placed to make some harder calls and trade or delist them. As a Club we just haven't nailed the idea of list management very well. Most would put that down to a resources issue, wouldn't they?

One observation I have made is that there aren't too many on our list that play their footy with a bit of moxy. The personalities are all very much alike, you can clearly see it in our leadership. It probably is contributing to a bit of groupthink and stifling some of the guys that don't quite fit in, or in a worse case scenario is impacting on decision making to our detriment.

McCartney has laid out some specific concepts about how the Bulldogs should play the game. However, what he has potentially underestimated is the players' ability to frame that within their own experience of the game. So instead of players understanding 'cracking in' as a way of going about their own game, their role in the side, they all try be foot soldier Matthew Boyd clones and dive in for the footy. When really, for someone like Cordy the performance of 'cracking in' should be very different. Just an example of where I think the message is being taken too literally, or given too narrow a focus.

Our mix is poor across age, personality and skill sets. It needs to be fixed before we get better.

[Mantis]

* I can't see any improvement in any player in 2012 over 2011 - ok maybe Wallis/Libba



How are you determining improvement in Libba & Wallis?

For me they are pretty much the same players as last year.... Sure Wallis has had more games this year, but his game style is the same.

[Remi Moses]

This is premature evaluation. The list was in need of an overhaul yet we decided to keep some ageing players whilst retaining other players that are not up to AFL standard.
This is normal practice for a new coach coming in, he inherited the list and wanted to make a judgment call 12 months later, I do not have an issue with this.

As has been stated on numerous occasions we need to cut deep, starting with the likes of Hargrave, Gia and Gilbee who all look like they are picking up their pension check.

Agree with this. We're in for some pain, no doubt:(

[always right]

How are you determining improvement in Libba & Wallis?

For me they are pretty much the same players as last year.... Sure Wallis has had more games this year, but his game style is the same.

Agree re Libba.....although he set a pretty good standard last year. Disagree re Wallis....has not only played more games but looks so much surer with his disposal this year....definite improvement.

Boy, we sure are wallowing in our self loathing on this board nowadays. This thread is a good example. It's bad enough copping thrashings every week...but it makes for bloody depressing reading in between games. And I'm not having a crack at you Mantis.

[Mantis]

Agree re Libba.....although he set a pretty good standard last year. Disagree re Wallis....has not only played more games but looks so much surer with his disposal this year....definite improvement.

I thought his skill level was ok last year... it's just that his disposals have minimal hurt factor at present which needs to improve... hopefully this comes with experience, but I'm concerned that his first option is always the safest one and not the one that is the best for the team.


Boy, we sure are wallowing in our self loathing on this board nowadays. This thread is a good example. It's bad enough copping thrashings every week...but it makes for bloody depressing reading in between games. And I'm not having a crack at you Mantis.

I'm sure if there were some positives to discuss, they would be getting discussed, but our last 6 weeks have been horrible which is evident by the angst being directed at all parts of the operation.

[LostDoggy]

We are worse off right now I agree. I think we are paying the price for being too generous with some players and trying to plug gaps in the hope of a quick turn around. We've granted some on our list untouchable status, when maybe we'd have been better placed to make some harder calls and trade or delist them. As a Club we just haven't nailed the idea of list management very well. Most would put that down to a resources issue, wouldn't they?

Our mix is poor across age, personality and skill sets. It needs to be fixed before we get better.

We are surely paying the price for desperately trying to upgrade in order to win a flag?!? We were trying to add the right mix of class up forward (in Aker and Hall) in order to climb the final hurdles in 08-11. I agree we've made some horrible recruiting decisions with the younger guys as well (have to be one of the worst recruiters in the league since '08) but the key list management issue was the constant plug of "need players" who filled a gap for 2 years but were past their prime. As a result of the flag chase our list management is in total disarray. We'd be forgiving the club now had they got us there but due to injury, sickness, Cooney's ruddy knee, Brian's unfixable back, Aker's idiocy and lots of bad luck (+not being quite good enough) we didn't. So life sucks. For now.

Bottom out, take the early picks, suck it up and claw back up the ladder. The filth, bombers, baggers etc have all had to take the same path despite the resources gap and have made it back up the top. The system is designed for this and we just have to take our turn. Get it right and take the bleedingly obvious in the draft (no more stinking Howard type choices - no matter how he turns out it is an unforgivable risk) and we'll be OK.

[Remi Moses]

The awful recruiting failures of Scott Clayton shouldn't be missed either.
We have an incredibly lop sided list in age and the 06 epic failure shouldn't be missed.

[The Pie Man]

I share the don't mind losing, it's the way we're going about it sentiment. We’re the ugliest team to watch in the league right now. Thinking back to what happened to Rhode, I don’t think McCartney will survive two years – us sucking right now doesn’t bother me hugely as we need draft picks….the squad as it is could be coached by Paul Roos and we’d probably only have a couple more wins to show for it - so bad results now reward us with some early pick quality that we haven’t had access to for years given we’ve been top 4 til last year.

I have at least 3 immediate concerns

• The way this inexperienced coaching group is managing our young forwards – Liam Jones & Jarrad Grant are both fit but didn’t play yesterday, while Ayce Cordy who is barely a second ruck let alone a KPF, gets a free pass

• That we’ll get picks 6 & 7 in this draft and still *&%# them up, such is our record with recruiting recently (deplorable)

• That our membership will slip to just over 20,000 in the next two years due to us being torturous to watch, financially crippling the joint

What also scares me is that when Rhode was let go, we still had Grant, Johnson, West, Smith, Darcy.....Lake & Boyd will be gone in two years, leaving Griffen as our sole A grader. It's going to get ugly

[azabob]

I have at least 3 immediate concerns

• That we’ll get picks 6 & 7 in this draft and still *&%# them up, such is our record with recruiting recently (deplorable)


Disagree about our recruiting not sure how you can say its deplorable when Dalrymple has only had 3 drafts.

[Remi Moses]

Disagree about our recruiting not sure how you can say its deplorable when Dalrymple has only had 3 drafts.

To early to judge on Dalrymple.Just get decent players in and no more "wonderful stories", "Project players"

[The Pie Man]

Disagree about our recruiting not sure how you can say its deplorable when Dalrymple has only had 3 drafts.

My whole statement re: recruiting maybe a touch dramatic - but it's an online forum, I'll permit myself a little emotion.

Got off to a cracking start in 09 - some of you can say it's too early to make calls on Howard, Tutt & Markovic - I think Markovic is the more likely to stay on the list as the coach clearly rates him, though his hamstring is a concern, and from my view so is his ability.

There weren't too many worse halves of football getting played than Howards 1st half yesterday, capping off a not too great period for him. Can't see him making it.

I do honestly think it's too early on Tutt - but signs aren't great (despite a cracking debut last year) Being made the sub twice in a row suggest a lack of respect in his game from the coaches

15 Christian Howard
31 Jason Tutt
63 Lukas Markovic
76 Shane Thorne
86 Rookie Promotion Liam Picken
92 Rookie Promotion James Mulligan

That draft will likely haunt us for some time.

I hope they can get this next draft right - it's obviously so important.

[Mofra]

What also scares me is that when Rhode was let go, we still had Grant, Johnson, West, Smith, Darcy.....Lake & Boyd will be gone in two years, leaving Griffen as our sole A grader. It's going to get ugly
Minor points, but Libba will join Griff as an A grader within 3 years. I'm positive.
Not sure if anyone else will

[The Pie Man]

Minor points, but Libba will join Griff as an A grader within 3 years. I'm positive.
Not sure if anyone else will

Could do - Jones could as well, but Libba would be more likely based on current output.

[LostDoggy]

The darkest moment is before the dawn. Did not Geelong experience the same difficulties before they grasped the mantle and became such a power house?

It takes quite a while for the structures and plans to become ingrained and second nature for all players in the team. At least another preseason I would say, and given the gaps in our list, maybe 2 preseasons.

Wringing our hands and complaining seems a fruitless exercise when you consider players like Gilbee are just new to Macca's game style, players like Sherman seem unable to understand it or put it into practice, and young players are becoming tired as the game and the year wears on.

It's taxing mentally as well as physically at the start of any major new journey, especially when you don't have an even spread of talent and experience. So it's tough to adjust when almost all have to start again. Far easier for a young player to come into a team when the key structures are already in place. But now, some players just get lost during a game. It's natural for it to seem like a struggle without end. It will be thus until we get players who can do what is asked and experience is gained through constant game time, regardless of the quality of skill errors or positional errors in the meantime. It's how we learn, bit by bit. Game time and more game time. Until we weed out the rubbish play by teaching them what to do in a variety of situations.

We all need to take a deep breath and believe in the process that is taking place.

I have heard nothing but praise for the coach and the way he is going about things.

[Dazza]

I doubt Eade would have gotten this group to perform any better than Macca has.

Our list is either young or the wrong side of 30.

Major stuff up getting in Sherman, Djekuerra, Moles and Veszpremi. Sure they meet the required age bracket that we need to cover. But they just aren't good players.

Next year probably won't be any better.

I think we'll be delisting quite a few players at years end.

Depth players fast become list cloggers in a team that has no chance of making the finals.

[always right]

I doubt Eade would have gotten this group to perform any better than Macca has.

Our list is either young or the wrong side of 30.

Major stuff up getting in Sherman, Djekuerra, Moles and Veszpremi. Sure they meet the required age bracket that we need to cover. But they just aren't good players.

Next year probably won't be any better.

I think we'll be delisting quite a few players at years end.

Depth players fast become list cloggers in a team that has no chance of making the finals.

Although some "depth" players provide good value when they are surrounded by quality. I think that's our biggest problem....simply not enough players approaching the elite end.

[LostDoggy]

The darkest moment is before the dawn. Did not Geelong experience the same difficulties before they grasped the mantle and became such a power house?

It takes quite a while for the structures and plans to become ingrained and second nature for all players in the team. At least another preseason I would say, and given the gaps in our list, maybe 2 preseasons.

Wringing our hands and complaining seems a fruitless exercise when you consider players like Gilbee are just new to Macca's game style, players like Sherman seem unable to understand it or put it into practice, and young players are becoming tired as the game and the year wears on.

It's taxing mentally as well as physically at the start of any major new journey, especially when you don't have an even spread of talent and experience. So it's tough to adjust when almost all have to start again. Far easier for a young player to come into a team when the key structures are already in place. But now, some players just get lost during a game. It's natural for it to seem like a struggle without end. It will be thus until we get players who can do what is asked and experience is gained through constant game time, regardless of the quality of skill errors or positional errors in the meantime. It's how we learn, bit by bit. Game time and more game time. Until we weed out the rubbish play by teaching them what to do in a variety of situations.

We all need to take a deep breath and believe in the process that is taking place.

I have heard nothing but praise for the coach and the way he is going about things.

Great post. If I may add to your sentiments, it's not just the players and coaches that have to start again, it's the fans as well, and for us it can be harder. It's harder to get back up and drag yourself to the game when things are going badly. It's hard telling yourself you've gotta wait another few years when you've waited so long already. But it's gotta be done. The players will adjust, hopefully the fans will too, and remember why they love the club in the first place. If you want to see a flag every ten years, follow Hawthorn. It's the struggle and the doing it from so far back that makes us special as a club. We will get there. Patience is needed as much as a list clear out.

[chef]

Scary thing is that we are going to be even worse over the next two seasons.

And then in 3 seasons time we won't have Gilbee, Lake, Morris, Gia, Boyd, Cross, Cooney, Hargrave and Murphy. We really need to start nailing the next couple of drafts and not expect to play finals for maybe up to 5 seasons from now.

[bornadog]

The darkest moment is before the dawn. Did not Geelong experience the same difficulties before they grasped the mantle and became such a power house?

You become a power house when you have the players - we don't


Wringing our hands and complaining seems a fruitless exercise when you consider players like Gilbee are just new to Macca's game style, players like Sherman seem unable to understand it or put it into practice, and young players are becoming tired as the game and the year wears on.

Well why is the new coach trying to make Sherman an in and under player when clearly he isnot. Maybe he should step back and say, some players have to win the CP but others have to spread quickly and position themselves to get the clearance.


We all need to take a deep breath and believe in the process that is taking place. I have heard nothing but praise for the coach and the way he is going about things.

Very hard to take that deep breath when you see the way we are playing.

Yes we have all heard good things about the coach but we haven't seen it happening.

[Dry Rot]

Scary thing is that we are going to be even worse over the next two seasons.

And then in 3 seasons time we won't have Gilbee, Lake, Morris, Gia, Boyd, Cross, Cooney, Hargrave and Murphy. We really need to start nailing the next couple of drafts and not expect to play finals for maybe up to 5 seasons from now.

Agreed. I said much the same on this thread

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=10850

We could get the spoon in the next couple of seasons

[FrediKanoute]

Agree re Libba.....although he set a pretty good standard last year. Disagree re Wallis....has not only played more games but looks so much surer with his disposal this year....definite improvement.

Boy, we sure are wallowing in our self loathing on this board nowadays. This thread is a good example. It's bad enough copping thrashings every week...but it makes for bloody depressing reading in between games. And I'm not having a crack at you Mantis.

I'd go a step further and say that both have improved brcause they are able to influence games for longer periods, Wallis in partiular had zero impact last year.

[Maddog37]

In Malthouses first year the Pies won the first five games and only two more for the rest of the year before finishing second last.

[Mantis]

The darkest moment is before the dawn. Did not Geelong experience the same difficulties before they grasped the mantle and became such a power house?

The sad thing is that I don't think we have bottomed out yet..And I can't remember Geelong copping beating after beating like we are.


I have heard nothing but praise for the coach and the way he is going about things.

I'm not going to divulge, but I'm hearing there is a fair bit of discontent amongst the 4 walls that are that are the WO... and across many levels too.

I guess you are bound to hear rumours when things aren't working out so hopefully the issues I'm hearing, if true, get resolved sooner rather than later.

[GVGjr]

This is premature evaluation. The list was in need of an overhaul yet we decided to keep some ageing players whilst retaining other players that are not up to AFL standard.
This is normal practice for a new coach coming in, he inherited the list and wanted to make a judgment call 12 months later, I do not have an issue with this.


Agreed, it's the price we pay for having three cracks at a flag and taking a number of short term decisions with our list management. Our drafting, trading and development of players hasn't been great either but it's primarily the list management decisions from 4 years back.

[Mantis]

Great post. If I may add to your sentiments, it's not just the players and coaches that have to start again, it's the fans as well, and for us it can be harder. It's harder to get back up and drag yourself to the game when things are going badly. It's hard telling yourself you've gotta wait another few years when you've waited so long already. But it's gotta be done. The players will adjust, hopefully the fans will too, and remember why they love the club in the first place. If you want to see a flag every ten years, follow Hawthorn. It's the struggle and the doing it from so far back that makes us special as a club. We will get there. Patience is needed as much as a list clear out.

How can you say we will get there when we have only done it once in our existence which was 58 years ago?

[Maddog37]

The sad thing is that I don't think we have bottomed out yet..And I can't remember Geelong copping beating after beating like we are.



I'm not going to divulge, but I'm hearing there is a fair bit of discontent amongst the 4 walls that are that are the WO... and across many levels too.

I guess you are bound to hear rumours when things aren't working out so hopefully the issues I'm hearing, if true, get resolved sooner rather than later.


C'mon Mantis, spill the beans! What are you hearing?

[SonofScray]

How can you say we will get there when we have only done it once in our existence which was 58 years ago?

It is the most infuriating part of it. All the talk of tanking, of waiting out the cycle etc. You can do that, play by those rules and end up right where we are now. In fact we've already done it. That view seems so defeatist. You basically are leaving things to chance, and chances are your gun kids won't actually come on, they'll get injured, they'll leave for the bright lights and big cheques.

I've only ever known to Dogs to be on death's door, or not quite good enough. Very little in between. As a general rule I think our fans are finding this turn down really, really tough and the lack of fight, of excitement coming out of the club is making it even tougher.

[bornadog]

I've only ever known to Dogs to be on death's door, or not quite good enough. Very little in between. As a general rule I think our fans are finding this turn down really, really tough and the lack of fight, of excitement coming out of the club is making it even tougher.

This ^^^

A few weeks ago Robbo talking to Murp on AFL 360 about this very fact. The President is quiet, the CEO is quiet, the coach and captain don't say boo. We are not high profile and in the face of the media? Is this the right thing to do.

Both Wallet and Rocket really promoted the club and got genuine interest from fans, media etc.

I feel this is a deliberate act by the club to try and not build up hopes for the next few seasons then go for it.

[Remi Moses]

This ^^^

A few weeks ago Robbo talking to Murp on AFL 360 about this very fact. The President is quiet, the CEO is quiet, the coach and captain don't say boo. We are not high profile and in the face of the media? Is this the right thing to do.

Both Wallet and Rocket really promoted the club and got genuine interest from fans, media etc.

I feel this is a deliberate act by the club to try and not build up hopes for the next few seasons then go for it.

Agree, can someone a lot more Internet savvy than this dinosaur find a "Panic Button" picture

[Bulldog Joe]

This ^^^

A few weeks ago Robbo talking to Murp on AFL 360 about this very fact. The President is quiet, the CEO is quiet, the coach and captain don't say boo. We are not high profile and in the face of the media? Is this the right thing to do.

Both Wallet and Rocket really promoted the club and got genuine interest from fans, media etc.

I feel this is a deliberate act by the club to try and not build up hopes for the next few seasons then go for it.

This is just not good enough.

Pre-season I was full of optimism but it has completely deserted me.

It is looking like the Rhode years from my eyes.

McCartney is supposedly the great teacher, but why is there so little to show from the lessons.
Why do we not have anyone who has learnt to run to make position, to provide a hard lead, or actually stop the opposition waltzing through half hearted attempts to tackle.

At the rate we are going we will be a rabble like Melbourne with no amount of talent that is drafted able to be developed.

I've been told that the coach expects another 3 years before we make progress. If it takes that long to be competitive we will miss another generation of supporters.

We actually need some leadership both off field and on field. Someone to step up and do something positive.

[AndrewP6]

I agree with the OP. And I fear there's a couple of years of it left.

[ratsmac]

If I look back to before the pre-season I would of had us in pretty much this ladder position of where we are right now. Sure the belting's hurt and are horrible to stomach, but you could see it coming. Come the NAB cup and intra club matches we start to get hopeful, Liam Jones takes some screamers, Dalhaus is in his second year, Lake is over his injuries, things seem to be on the rise. The fact is that reality is setting in right now. We are an ageing team that is rebuilding and getting games into young players to see if they have what it takes.

We have a entirely new coaching group that are still finding their feet with the playing group and each other. We were never going really make the finals this year anyway, so this is the recession we had to have. This recession will last at least another year I feel, but as always we will be back having another crack in a few years.

I say, sit back and enjoy the ride, things could be worse, you could barrack for Richmond.

[anfo27]

It was always going to be a tough year & if posters had grand plans of maybe making finals then they are not only looking through rose coloured glasses but they are delusional.

We did show improvement but for whatever reason the last 6 weeks we have gone backwards at a rate of knots. I agree that its going to get a lot worse before it gets better but I am prepared for that.

Round 1 last year was the final straw for me & that performance confirmed to me that we needed to start again. Our top end players were just not good enough when we were there a bouts & our recruiting the last 5 or so years would be the worst in the league.

I have no faith in our recruiting manager at all & I pray that he won't stuff up picks 5 & 6. His 1st draft in charge is all the evidence i need to suggest we have the wrong man. His first draft it was like he was trying to out smart the other recruiters. Smorgan should he'd down to Geelong & ask Wells to name his price.

I believe that macca is the right man, no doubt in my mind. I'm just worried he is not going to given the time to turn things around. things are going to get worse & the club will be under enormous pressure & i hope they don't cave in & make an example of macca to please the fans & media.

Hang in there woofers & have some faith.

[AndrewP6]

Agree, can someone a lot more Internet savvy than this dinosaur find a "Panic Button" picture

http://leoandjen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/the-bullshit-button-panic-button-cool-gadgets-2.jpg

[LostDoggy]

I find that this club makes a lot of short term decisions. It could be to placate supporters, fear arising from a small membership or an under-resourced football department. It could be all three.

Guido was spot on of his analysis of the Veale deal. Most of us saw that whole trading period as a bad idea but the club p*ssed it all away for "instant" success by getting Koops, Street, Morgan and Rawlings.

The Harbrow pick would be a godsend right now, but instead, we chased a marginal player to replace Harbrow straight away.

We blinked with Djekurra and gave away a pick Geelong didn't even use. Because we were desperate for a ready to go small forward.

We activated our 3rd pick this year so that we get instant value for our losses last year. As soon as it was activated, I argued against it. That third pick has become useless for us because it will be used on Hunter (unless we take 6 picks this year). Without the compo pick, Hunter will slip to our 4th rounder and we would still use our natural 3rd rounder. Activating the 3rd rounder next year was always the way to go because most of the compo picks are gone so it will be earlier, the draft will be just as strong, we spread the age distribution a bit more and we will still be bottom 4.

There needs to be a methodical approach to re-building this club and it will take time. I don't have a problem with supporters venting but I do think the club overreacts to supporter angst.

Examples of this is reaching for talls in Everitt, Grant and Walsh. None were rated where we drafted them. This is despite Clayton's declared "Best Available" policy. He had a plan and went against it because the supporter base wanted power forwards. Cameron didn't get the job because the supporter base and the media jumped on a "jobs for the boys" bandwagon and the club got toey. Its far too early to judge McCartney and we need to stick with our decision but its an example of the club overreacting to supporter pressure.

Anyway my two cents. It may all be untrue.

[Remi Moses]

http://leoandjen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/the-bullshit-button-panic-button-cool-gadgets-2.jpg

Thanks Andrew .
Panic metre has hit 10

[Sedat]

I can't see any improvement in any player in 2012 over 2011 - ok maybe Wallis/Libba
Actually I think Crossy has improved year on year, which is a great credit to the man. He is literally the only established player on our list who has found a role to suit his current skills set and he has been a very good, consistent contributor all season. Tick to the match commitee for finding such a role for Crossy.

Minson has also improved significantly with the added responsibility of the main ruck role.

Outside of these two, not one established senior player has improved from 2011 to 2012. As a noted teacher, this reflects very poorly on BMac IMO. By contrast, Rocket got significant improvement out of almost a dozen players from 2004 to 2005.

[Sedat]

The darkest moment is before the dawn. Did not Geelong experience the same difficulties before they grasped the mantle and became such a power house?Geelong in 2006 didn't lose 5 games in 6 matches by an average of 80 points. Geelong in 2006 won 10.5 games for the season, not 5. Geelong in 2006 didn't average 60 points a game for 6 weeks on end.

We haven't been underachieving, we have been wretched. We have been awful to watch. We have been sliced apart by teams that are well outside the 8. It's quite OK to ask some serious questions about where we are heading and not be accused of pushing the panic button.

[LostDoggy]

You become a power house when you have the players - we don't



Well why is the new coach trying to make Sherman an in and under player when clearly he isnot. Maybe he should step back and say, some players have to win the CP but others have to spread quickly and position themselves to get the clearance.



Very hard to take that deep breath when you see the way we are playing.

Yes we have all heard good things about the coach but we haven't seen it happening.

1. It was reported that Thomson went within a whisker of being sacked. That should tell you something about all those criticising him at the time
2. If Sherman can only play one way, then he is not required as I don't think he is as damaging as, say, an Eagleton was. There are better footballers to develop who can play inside and out. I certainly hope we recruit well……one or two ranging left footers would be handy
3. I have seen good things for a quarter or half of footy in a number of games where we have lost decisively.

[G-Mo77]

2. If Sherman can only play one way, then he is not required as I don't think he is as damaging as, say, an Eagleton was. There are better footballers to develop who can play inside and out. I certainly hope we recruit well……one or two ranging left footers would be handy


I'd love to pull the Eagle out of retirement and get him to show this clown how it's done!

[stefoid]

My concern is the big margins we are losing by. We are supposed to be learning how to defend and stop the opposition scoring - we wern't promised wins, we were promised being 'tough to play against' I believe was the motto.

This has stopped happening - we are currently easy beats.

[Maddog37]

Do you think there is some disharmony in the group?

[G-Mo77]

My concern is the big margins we are losing by. We are supposed to be learning how to defend and stop the opposition scoring - we wern't promised wins, we were promised being 'tough to play against' I believe was the motto.

This has stopped happening - we are currently easy beats.

Has it stopped or have teams gotten better and we've plateaued? We were very competitive early on, we could have snuck away with wins against Collingwood and Geelong. If we played either of those sides now I'm sure we'd be smashed by about 10 goals although Geelong aren't exactly setting the league on fire I'd still expect them to smash us.

[DragzLS1]

If you look at the first half of the season you will find we were definatley hard to play against (other then the saint kilda and sydney game ).

The first half against hawthorne we showed up aswell butt hen dropped off.

We were heading in the right direction but have drropped off lately and doesnt look like we will improve dramatically by seasons end! I think Macca deserves atleast another 2 years to see where we are at until we can judge him. Lets just keep supporting and enjoy watching the younger guys go about it :)

Improvements to Libba (small improvement but he did set the bar very high last year) and Wallis! I cant remember the last time somebody with less then 10 games had 29 disposals in a game (3rd highest that game?) and involved in a few scoring shots.

Next year will be just as tough and only expect to win a hand ful of games. 2015 will see us fighting for the 8th spot (like essendon last year) then 2016 fighting for top 4.

Just have to hang in

[Bumper Bulldogs]

Do you think there is some disharmony in the group?

Absolutly 100% we have issues down at Bulldog land. You can nt tell me that football has changed that much, we have not taken a basketball side and put them on the park and asked them to play a new game.

We have a good bunch of footballers that are capable of far more than we are seeing at tis point.

If the club continue down the way we are oing they will loose huge $ for non-attending crowds, next years membership numbers, sponsorship deals, and senior players that want to o and play finials. Smorgan you need to take some control and start leading this club or we will be more than the 3 years rebuilding as stated,

Maybe Smorgans heart is nt in the job anymore. He did say that he wasn't going to run again last I've around. It will not be long and the Dimma thing be be brushed off by the media again and be back page news.

[Remi Moses]

Absolutly 100% we have issues down at Bulldog land. You can nt tell me that football has changed that much, we have not taken a basketball side and put them on the park and asked them to play a new game.

We have a good bunch of footballers that are capable of far more than we are seeing at tis point.

If the club continue down the way we are oing they will loose huge $ for non-attending crowds, next years membership numbers, sponsorship deals, and senior players that want to o and play finials. Smorgan you need to take some control and start leading this club or we will be more than the 3 years rebuilding as stated,

Maybe Smorgans heart is nt in the job anymore. He did say that he wasn't going to run again last I've around. It will not be long and the Dimma thing be be brushed off by the media again and be back page news.
Some fair points, but I'd disagree that we have a good football team .
Dogs have lost 11 players from the prelim teams. Yes the effort is ordinary, but the club's win loss scenario is about where I thought they'd be.

[AndrewP6]

I thought earlier this year that we could be back playing finals in 2014. I'm now thinking the year after, or even 2016 :eek:

[Ghost Dog]

Come on, who knows?? It's only July in 2012. Anything can happen in 6 months. Look at Carlton lying in a navy blue puddle.

[firstdogonthemoon]

5 years at least before we can challenge for the flag again.

And only if we replace Fantasia, Smorgon and Garlick with capable people.

There I said it.

I love smorgo but he has overseen our current situation. Garlick is missing in action. Fantasia is responsible for our current list.

Happy to be wrong.

[Sedat]

5 years at least before we can challenge for the flag again.

And only if we replace Fantasia, Smorgon and Garlick with capable people.

There I said it.

I love smorgo but he has overseen our current situation. Garlick is missing in action. Fantasia is responsible for our current list.

Happy to be wrong.
Seconded. How a far reaching and wide ranging review of all club operations can deduce that the senior coach needs to be replaced and everything else is hunky dory is just laughable. The club is in a world of trouble on and off the park, and only Jujitsu Judd is keeping us out of the spotlight.

[Ghost Dog]

Seconded. How a far reaching and wide ranging review of all club operations can deduce that the senior coach needs to be replaced and everything else is hunky dory is just laughable. The club is in a world of trouble on and off the park, and only Jujitsu Judd is keeping us out of the spotlight.

It's more than this. When a team like Melbourne hits rock bottom, their fans may complain about beingovercooked in the media. But at least it shows somebody cares.
Our woes are flying under the radar of the press as we are seen as being largely irrelevant in the football world.

[G-Mo77]

5 years at least before we can challenge for the flag again.

And only if we replace Fantasia, Smorgon and Garlick with capable people.

There I said it.

I love smorgo but he has overseen our current situation. Garlick is missing in action. Fantasia is responsible for our current list.

Happy to be wrong.

I don't think many will argue with you. I know I won't.

[Maddog37]

Bit hard on Garlick isn't it?
What should he be doing to avoid being "missing in action"?

[The Pie Man]

Seconded. How a far reaching and wide ranging review of all club operations can deduce that the senior coach needs to be replaced and everything else is hunky dory is just laughable. The club is in a world of trouble on and off the park, and only Jujitsu Judd is keeping us out of the spotlight.

That, and what Sheahan on Monday night called an 'indifference' to us. Said we were in 'intensive care' and that we 'should be the lead story' except for said indifference.

I agree....sadly

[Maddog37]

We are getting a leave pass because we have a first year coach and most pundits understand that it takes time to change when a new coach takes over. Macca has also performed very calmly and has not waivered from his message whenever he is in the media.

Also Mike Sheehan changes his opinion like he changes his undies. Two good wins and we are ok again. Two bad losses after that and we were papering over the cracks. And so it goes.

[LostDoggy]

That, and what Sheahan on Monday night called an 'indifference' to us. Said we were in 'intensive care' and that we 'should be the lead story' except for said indifference.

I agree....sadly

Two seperate issues for mine - only related because poor form makes it harder to address club profile.

Our form is getting worse because of player youth. GWS are getting smashed now because their players are tiring in the back end of the season. Our better quality players are our young guys and they are wilting because they haven't had enough pre-seasons into their legs. I have hopes vs Carlton but that's about it for the back end of the year. Gold Coast/GWS will struggle in the coming rounds (despite quality drafting) for the same reasons. Port/Melbourne I think have shocking lists and have less excuses. I think we are somewhere in between which is why this draft is so critical but I dispute intensive care. No way we are the lead story on form because its pretty darn obvious why the list is shot whereas Melbourne, Carlton, Richmond and Norf have no such excuses in terms of where their lists should be in the footy cycle.

Sheahan's "indifference" relates to points raised in this forum's club's marketing and membership threads and there are some really good ideas that have been posted there. I do agree we need to find additional ways to lift our profile. We've got great colours that should be a marketing dream but we don't do it well. Lots of AFL related ads on telly have a big profile team taking a mark over a bulldog player because we have a great colour "fit" for eye catching purposes. We need to use that to better effect and we need to find better ways to build member retention. Really tough to do when form is in the crappa.

[Mofra]

Our better quality players are our young guys and they are wilting because they haven't had enough pre-seasons into their legs.
I disagree 100%. Our better players are older types with only a couple of exceptions.

Take out Boyd, Cross, Lake and Murphy and we'd be stone motherless last.

[Cyberdoggie]

This ^^^

A few weeks ago Robbo talking to Murp on AFL 360 about this very fact. The President is quiet, the CEO is quiet, the coach and captain don't say boo. We are not high profile and in the face of the media? Is this the right thing to do.

Both Wallet and Rocket really promoted the club and got genuine interest from fans, media etc.

I feel this is a deliberate act by the club to try and not build up hopes for the next few seasons then go for it.

Well there isn't much to beat up, i guess they don't want the media pressure that was on Melbourne earlier in the year on us.

When it finally turns and looks us in the face i'm sure they will then get start to open their mouths a bit.



I agree it does look very grim at the moment, especially when your side doesn't even look like scoring a goal in a whole half of football. 5 goals for a game and 1 from a free kick in the second half is a bloody disgrace, and a huge reason why a lot of our supporters will start dropping off.
This is going to be a huge challenge for this football club to survive this downfall in the coming years.

[Mantis]

Also Mike Sheehan changes his opinion like he changes his undies. Two good wins and we are ok again. Two bad losses after that and we were papering over the cracks. And so it goes.

When are these 2 wins going to come?

[LostDoggy]

I disagree 100%. Our better players are older types with only a couple of exceptions.

Take out Boyd, Cross, Lake and Murphy and we'd be stone motherless last.

Lake and Murphy are top shelf yes. Think my point is more that when the young guys get pre-season's into them they look much more likely to create winning opportunities for the team than Boyd and Cross have the ability to do. Boyd and Cross as the mainstay of our midfield means our quality of mainstay is about 15th in the comp. Funnily enough that's where we sit on the ladder.... Loosing Conney has destroyed us, as having only one class player (Griffin - and it could as easily be Pendulbury) is too easy for the opposition to shut down. I would only place Port Adelaide and Melbourne beneath us for caliber of the +24 year old midfield players.

[Maddog37]

When are these 2 wins going to come?


I guarantee it will be some time within the next two years!:)

[bornadog]

5 years at least before we can challenge for the flag again.

And only if we replace Fantasia, Smorgon and Garlick with capable people.

There I said it.

I love smorgo but he has overseen our current situation. Garlick is missing in action. Fantasia is responsible for our current list.

Happy to be wrong.

Read my thread on what needs to be done for 2013....... I agree with you

[SonofScray]

I don't think many will argue with you. I know I won't.

Me either, although I am happy to give Garlick some more time - he at least seems to have identified how poor our efforts at building a 'western' brand have been since we threw our real name in the tip.

[Remi Moses]

We are getting a leave pass because we have a first year coach and most pundits understand that it takes time to change when a new coach takes over. Macca has also performed very calmly and has not waivered from his message whenever he is in the media.

Also Mike Sheehan changes his opinion like he changes his undies. Two good wins and we are ok again. Two bad losses after that and we were papering over the cracks. And so it goes.

Couldn't agree more.
Sheehan jumps on and off wagons quickly.Early in the year it was Melbourne then it was Norf, then Carlton. He means intensive care in what? Survival? I know Mike rattles on about our crowds, but that's an issue for all the smaller clubs. Out of interest the reigning premier only got 13,000 to a Port game a few weeks back! ( the ground still fits 20).I don't know any sport where you get 13 grand rock up and make a profit, yet another venue against the same team bigger ground write out a big cheque! Rediculous

[jeemak]

I've been thinking about different ways I can contribute this thread, in a reasonably positive manner, but for the life of me I can't.

While I don't think we've gone backwards in terms of development, we've been severly effed over in terms of player loss.

Cooney - He's not having the input one would expect from a number one draft pick, and tha's because he's almost had it. Tragic story, not his fault and probably nothing to do with the club

Harbrow - Was offered cash beyond what his output and standing in the game deserved, though he'd be extremely helpful right now considering his previous ability to move the ball forward quickly from defense. Let's remember, there wasn't a half back in the league at his age that was as exciting as Harbrow in 2009

Ward - Contested ball winner, and capable of moving it with good decisive skill. Pulled over 30 touches in our most recent finals appearance, and some of them were excellent.

Couple the above with the loss of stalwarts and solid senior players like Hall and it's not surprising we're lacking in scoring power, let alone the ability to move the ball forward fluidly to allow our forwards to receive clean ball.


I'm prepared to acknowledge that in some cases our current crop hasn't been developed very well, though, I can't help but imagine how differently they'd be performing with Harbrow, Cooney and Ward playing well alongside them.

Make no mistake, we have been completely ruinied by the loss of these guys, and it has exposed some of the picks we've drafted over the last couple of years. It's easy to pick holes in the club's stategy of course, and contract management is an area that should be focused on, though from a selection perspective I'm not sure we've been as bad as many believe.

[LostDoggy]

Lake and Murphy are top shelf yes. Think my point is more that when the young guys get pre-season's into them they look much more likely to create winning opportunities for the team than Boyd and Cross have the ability to do. Boyd and Cross as the mainstay of our midfield means our quality of mainstay is about 15th in the comp. Funnily enough that's where we sit on the ladder.... Loosing Conney has destroyed us, as having only one class player (Griffin - and it could as easily be Pendulbury) is too easy for the opposition to shut down. I would only place Port Adelaide and Melbourne beneath us for caliber of the +24 year old midfield players.

Boyd - two times All Australian, two times club champion, gets more possessions than any player in the competiion and you don't rate him?

You must be joking.

[Sedat]

Make no mistake, we have been completely ruinied by the loss of these guys, and it has exposed some of the picks we've drafted over the last couple of years. It's easy to pick holes in the club's stategy of course, and contract management is an area that should be focused on, though from a selection perspective I'm not sure we've been as bad as many believe.My issue with club strategy is that Harbrow and Ward were unnecessarily lost due to the ineptness of our player contracts negotiator and list manager at the time. And that person is still employed at the club in a very senior capacity.

[jeemak]

My issue with club strategy is that Harbrow and Ward were unnecessarily lost due to the ineptness of our player contracts negotiator and list manager at the time. And that person is still employed at the club in a very senior capacity.

Find it hard to disagree with you.

[KT31]

My issue with club strategy is that Harbrow and Ward were unnecessarily lost due to the ineptness of our player contracts negotiator and list manager at the time. And that person is still employed at the club in a very senior capacity.

Agree, and unfortunatly IMO there is more grief to come.

[stefoid]

How so?

[chef]

How so?

We are going to get worse before we get better.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

We are going to get worse before we get better.

I agree, I think next year is going to be more of the same, if not worse in some regards.
However I at least will be looking to see individual improvement and signs of hope in the future through the performances of some of our young guys, especially Wallis, Libba, Howard, Grant, Jones, Roughy, Cordy, Dahl and Smith.
Would love to see some games into Roberts, Talia, Pearce and Campbell.

[Bumper Bulldogs]

My issue with club strategy is that Harbrow and Ward were unnecessarily lost due to the ineptness of our player contracts negotiator and list manager at the time. And that person is still employed at the club in a very senior capacity.

And based on what is. Urgently happening with the Minson contract negotiations we might be adding him to this list as well.

The Club needs to get things in order and get him signed upor float him o the market now and start getting trade talks started!

[Maddog37]

In today's paper that negotiations with Will are progressing well.

[F'scary]

Great thread - this is why I come here.

Agree with Mofra: our best players this year tend to be our older established ones (but Gia & Gilbee excluded from this and Gia's decline is a shock, he was good last year but this year has lost a metre or two and is therefore no longer competitive). Ok, with the younger ones, Dahl, Libba, Wallis big ticks but others are just not measuring up - big worries there. But Smith looks like he will have something to offer.

Points made by Jeemak (et al) about the pilfering (Demitriou abetted) of gun players Harbrow and Ward and the tragic injuries to Morris & Cooney explain a lot of the lack of competitiveness this year.

[Desipura]

Great thread - this is why I come here.

Agree with Mofra: our best players this year tend to be our older established ones (but Gia & Gilbee excluded from this and Gia's decline is a shock, he was good last year but this year has lost a metre or two and is therefore no longer competitive). r.

Gia was very good last year. At his age his drop in form should not be a shock given his age. This is why clubs generally only offer players at the wrong side of 20yo 1 year contracts.
Gia is the same pace as last year, it's just his body is failing him.

[Desipura]

Great thread - this is why I come here.

Agree with Mofra: our best players this year tend to be our older established ones (but Gia & Gilbee excluded from this and Gia's decline is a shock, he was good last year but this year has lost a metre or two and is therefore no longer competitive). r.

Gia was very good last year. At his age his drop in form should not be a shock. This is why clubs generally only offer players at the wrong side of 20yo 1 year contracts.
Gia is the same pace as last year, it's just his body is failing him.

[KT31]

Gia was very good last year. At his age his drop in form should not be a shock. This is why clubs generally only offer players at the wrong side of 20yo 1 year contracts.
Gia is the same pace as last year, it's just his body is failing him.

Groundhog Day, Desi ?:)

[Bulldog4life]

Gia was very good last year. At his age his drop in form should not be a shock. This is why clubs generally only offer players at the wrong side of 20yo 1 year contracts.
Gia is the same pace as last year, it's just his body is failing him.

I'd suggest the wrong side of 30 too.:)