Starting to get worried about our coach

[Greystache]

Whilst I think Chops goes a bit too hard at this stage he makes a heck of a lot of valid points IMO. Disappointing to read a few comments about where he watches the game from and that he shouldn't have a strong opinion because of it.

Our ig name players having poor games last week was somewhat due to the coach.

If you can't even be bothered to go to the games it's a big call to say a team has been outcoached based on what you've seen on the TV. Of course the insightful comments of Bruce Mcavaney would help :rolleyes:

And when those same big name players let us down in the critical moments in the previous 5 years that had nothing to do with the coach, that was just the players right?

[LostDoggy]

The points made are so obvious. But why not delve a little deeper into the reasons behind them?
See solutions and problems not just problems.
If someone is constantly negative it starts to erode their argument.

The reasons behind is our coach is out of his depth, caused by president well past his used date, a CEO that a football manager patsy, and football manager through years of bad decisions still survives.
Solution is simple isn't it.

[LostDoggy]

If you can't even be bothered to go to the games it's a big call to say a team has been outcoached based on what you've seen on the TV. Of course the insightful comments of Bruce Mcavaney would help :rolleyes:

I missed 2 games, I also saw one in Darwin that I doubt you went to. Why it matters to you is your guess.
Already mentioned you don't need to see a game to know the selections.
Results I suppose have told you nothing either.

[LongWait]

The reasons behind is our coach is out of his depth, caused by president well past his used date, a CEO that a football manager patsy, and football manager through years of bad decisions still survives.
Solution is simple isn't it.

Let me see if I've got this right.... pretty much everyone and everything to do with our club is rooted but you, being the insightful and courageous intellect that you are, appear to be the only person who can see this?

[LostDoggy]

Just imagine You as president .
New coach sacked after 16 games !
2013 coach if we haven't improved sacked during the season.
3 coaches in 3 seasons! Wonderful!
The facts are the list is lopsided in the extreme, and silly inane digs at the coach are becoming tediously boring!

If I had been president for 15+ years without achieving the ultimate goal I would have resigned before sacking the person that got us close.

[LostDoggy]

Let me see if I've got this right.... pretty much everyone and everything to do with our club is rooted but you, being the insightful and courageous intellect that you are, appear to be the only person who can see this?

I gave 3 people so that means everyone and everything?

I'm the only person? Well I never started this thread and the other stuff has been mentioned already.

[LongWait]

I mentioned 3 people so that means everyone and everything?

I'm the only person? Well I never started this thread and the other stuff has been mentioned already.

Well the President, CEO, Football Manager and the Coach covers a lot of bases - the four key posts in the club in one sentence. No-one slags off indescriminately quite like you Chops.

[Greystache]

If I had been president for 15+ years without achieving the ultimate goal I would have resigned before sacking the person that got us close.

Yet the person who'd also had 14 years without achieving the ultmate goal is somehow the solution. Seriously do you think about what you're saying before rolling out this garbage?

The facts speak for themselves

- 14 years without a flag is one of the longest stints in football history.

- 13 consecutive years without a grand final appearance is one of the longest in football history

- A career finals record of 1 win from 11 finals against top 4 teams shows that they didn't even get close.

[LostDoggy]

Well the President, CEO, Football Manager and the Coach covers a lot of bases - the four key posts in the club in one sentence. No-one slags off indescriminately quite like you Chops.

What a load of rubbish. I suppose you'd call the slagging off you've done as discriminate?
Asked a question I gave it.

[LostDoggy]

Yet the person who'd also had 14 years without achieving the ultmate goal is somehow the solution. Seriously do you think about what you're saying before rolling out this garbage?

The facts speak for themselves

- 14 years without a flag is one of the longest stints in football history.

- 13 consecutive years without a grand final appearance is one of the longest in football history

- A career finals record of 1 win from 11 finals against top 4 teams shows that they didn't even get close.
Who made this an Eade thread? I have said a number of time that maybe he had to go but I also said there were a few that should have gone before him.

[Ghost Dog]

I honestly don't know what some people perceive the term ' supporter' to mean. It's definitely ok to criticize but be fair?
not going to make any excuses for the coach's short comings. . In terms of our win / loss ratio, it was fair to expect this situation, although the smashings we have been on the end of are a worry. That's not a worry about the coach specifically, but about the whole playing group and their mental and physical fitness; youth is a factor as well.

Time to start another thread, ' I'm not worried about the coach!'

[LostDoggy]

I honestly don't know what some people perceive the term ' supporter' to mean.
Time to start another thread, ' I'm not worried about the coach!'

Supporter means to blindly be happy with way things are going. Never raise a concern if something is wrong.
If they make sacrifices/commitments and they still doing it wrong we should be so lucky cos someone could do it half arsed and get it right.

[Desipura]

It's fair to say this thread has brought out the true chops and not many people like it, I have to say he has not won many admirers, quiet the opposite actually.

[G-Mo77]

Supporter means to blindly be happy with way things are going. Never raise a concern if something is wrong.

Quality post as always. :rolleyes:

Waiting for the accepting mediocrity line.........

[LostDoggy]

It's funny, I think I knew we were cooked round 1 last year when Essendon made us look second rate. I think had we not had Barry last year, we would have struggled to score much the same as this year. Macca was never going to come in and get the team to play exactly the same as Rocket had them playing so it's expected that a new way of playing is going to take time to implement. If they are taught to win contests as the foundations of the game plan it has to be a good starting point doesn't it?

[G-Mo77]

It's funny, I think I knew we were cooked round 1 last year when Essendon made us look second rate. I think had we not had Barry last year, we would have struggled to score much the same as this year. Macca was never going to come in and get the team to play exactly the same as Rocket had them playing so it's expected that a new way of playing is going to take time to implement. If they are taught to win contests as the foundations of the game plan it has to be a good starting point doesn't it?

We were rubbish last year. Fortunately there were a lot of other teams just as bad and squeaked out 9 wins, none of real significance apart from a good win over Carlton.

[bornadog]

We were rubbish last year. Fortunately there were a lot of other teams just as bad and squeaked out 9 wins, none of real significance apart from a good win over Carlton.

4 more than this season.

[G-Mo77]

4 more than this season.

Your point being?

[Desipura]

This coach has taken a whole different approach to any other coach we have had in my time supporting the dogs.
He has stated he likes fierce competitors who love to get their own ball. He is playing youngsters when they are not truly ready for AFL footy and backs them after a bad game, i cannot recall him dropping the likes of Cordy, often he has opted to rest them the following week. This would be good for their confidence and is an interesting approach.
He plays no favourites and is not araid to throw a first gamer in the ruck or at fullforward.
I, like BMac hope that we will see the benefits of his approach, if it fails, he won't be coaxhing beyond next year, let's wait until then.

[bornadog]

Your point being?

We have gone backwards.

[G-Mo77]

We have gone backwards.

Did you honestly think we were going to be better than last year? The signs were clearly there in 2011.

2012 we were always going to go backwards. I think it'll be a similar year in 2013.

[chef]

We have gone backwards.

We have, but is due to the management of our list over the last 5 years and not the current coach.

[Greystache]

We have gone backwards.

Losing Callan Ward and Barry Hall was going to cause that regardless of what we did.

Morris missing the season, serious drop offs from senior players in Gia and Hargrave have compounded the issue. If we hadn't re-invented Cross' role it could have been even worse.

At least we're taking the pain now rather than loading up with senior players and trying to minimize the short term damage but extending the long term pain.

[chef]

Did you honestly think we were going to be better than last year? The signs were clearly there in 2011.

2012 we were always going to go backwards before going forwards. I think it'll be a similar year in 2013.

And 2014. If we nail this draft and the next couple we will start climbing back up the ladder in season 2015 IMO.

[G-Mo77]

And 2014. If we nail this draft and the next couple we will see signs of improve in season 2015 IMO.

Sadly you're probably right.

I don't think I've ever been so nervous for an upcoming draft.

[LostDoggy]

We have gone backwards.

You don't think that was always going to happen? Losing players, players dropping in form and blooding kids will do that to any team. The single biggest killer for mine has been poor drafting and list management over the last 6 years.

[Desipura]

This coach has taken a whole different approach to any other coach we have had in my time supporting the dogs.
He has stated he likes fierce competitors who love to get their own ball. He is playing youngsters when they are not truly ready for AFL footy and backs them after a bad game, i cannot recall him dropping the likes of Cordy, often he has opted to rest them the following week. This would be good for their confidence and is an interesting approach.
He plays no favourites and is not afraid to throw a first gamer in the ruck or at fullforward.
I, like BMac hope that we will see the benefits of his approach, if it fails, he won't be coaxhing beyond next year, let's wait until then.

[LostDoggy]

Quality post as always. :rolleyes:

Waiting for the accepting mediocrity line.........
And I'm accused of drawing a long bow.
When have I ever said that?
You have mistaken me for some my critics here who have written exactly that and meant it (including a moderator who does thinks the only way a coach is assessed is watching the game live).

[bornadog]

Losing Callan Ward and Barry Hall was going to cause that regardless of what we did.

Morris missing the season, serious drop offs from senior players in Gia and Hargrave have compounded the issue. If we hadn't re-invented Cross' role it could have been even worse.

At least we're taking the pain now rather than loading up with senior players and trying to minimize the short term damage but extending the long term pain.

We can't blame the coach for the loss of those players, which of course makes his job harder and we don't have any seniors players to load up on.

Now that we have almost hit rock bottom, time for a clean up.

[bornadog]

You don't think that was always going to happen? Losing players, players dropping in form and blooding kids will do that to any team. The single biggest killer for mine has been poor drafting and list management over the last 6 years.

Well, lets forget the past, I have;)

Lets see if we have the balls to fix the future.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Well, lets forget the past, I have;)

Lets see if we have the balls to fix the future.

Let's make sure that each player has at least two of them.

[G-Mo77]

Lets see if we have the balls to fix the future.

Draft day we've got to get right. Sounds simple enough but it's not always easy. I think we've done pretty good in recent drafts although 2010 we received gifts with Libba and Wallis.

There will also need to be some hard decisions made at the end of this season.

[w3design]

We have gone backwards.

Yep, that's true. But, it neither started this season, nor can it be dumped at the feet of our coach. The team was going backwards as far back as round 1 2010. The finals in 2009 was about as good as we got this peak. Since then, we have been in decline, gradual perhaps at first, but on a steady down curve.

So why are folks now sounding surprised, or looking for a scape goat? As I recall, most posters pre-season had us firmly entrenched in the bottom echelons of the ladder this season, and that before the coach had coached a single game.

We are seriously 'ordinary' right now, but I for one am optimist enough to think that we are at or near the bottom of our trough, and that next season, while not an immediate return to finals action, will see clear progress from our kids, and the start of our climb back up.

[AndrewP6]

Yet the person who'd also had 14 years without achieving the ultmate goal is somehow the solution. Seriously do you think about what you're saying before rolling out this garbage?

The facts speak for themselves

- 14 years without a flag is one of the longest stints in football history.

- 13 consecutive years without a grand final appearance is one of the longest in football history

- A career finals record of 1 win from 11 finals against top 4 teams shows that they didn't even get close.

He didn't have 14 years with us though, that's a fact too. Malthouse had 10 at Collingwood, and then got them the premiership.

As the kids say, "Just sayin'"

[azabob]

He didn't have 14 years with us though, that's a fact too. Malthouse had 10 at Collingwood, and then got them the premiership.

As the kids say, "Just sayin'"

So are you "just sayin" we'd win the premiership in 2014 if Eade remained coach?

[AndrewP6]

So are you "just sayin" we'd win the premiership in 2014 if Eade remained coach?

Not necessarily, just that the argument that Eade had 14 years and didn't win a premiership, so it was time to move him on is a bit flawed.

[Eastdog]

Not necessarily, just that the argument that Eade had 14 years and didn't win a premiership, so it was time to move him on is a bit flawed.

Comparing to Malthouse at Collingwood he had 11 years won a premiership but almost didn't.

[GVGjr]

He didn't have 14 years with us though, that's a fact too. Malthouse had 10 at Collingwood, and then got them the premiership.



He was a premiership coach before those 10 years though and the club had the confidence in him that he could take them to sustained success. They were right in that assessment. He also ran into one of the best sides ever in a couple of grand finals before he got the Pies over the line.
Massive difference I would have thought.

[AndrewP6]

He was a premiership coach before those 10 years though and the club had the confidence in him that he could take them to sustained success. They were right in that assessment. He also ran into one of the best sides ever in a couple of grand finals before he got the Pies over the line.
Massive difference I would have thought.

Difference of opinion yes.

Anyway, I don't want to get on this merry-go-round again!

[Eastdog]

He was a premiership coach before those 10 years though and the club had the confidence in him that he could take them to sustained success. They were right in that assessment. He also ran into one of the best sides ever in a couple of grand finals before he got the Pies over the line.
Massive difference I would have thought.

Good point GVG. Malthouse had won premierships before with West Coast when he arrived at Collingwood - Eade came in got to a grand final with Sydney but did not win any. I think Eade was a very good coach even though he didn't win any flags. Anyways we have too move on now.

[GVGjr]

Difference of opinion yes.



No, it's not a difference in opinions it's a different look at the facts you presented.

[GVGjr]

Good point GVG. Malthouse had won premierships before with West Coast when he arrived at Collingwood - Eade came in got to a grand final with Sydney but did not win any. I think Eade was a very good coach even though he didn't win any flags. Anyways we have too move on now.

Outside of not winning us a flag, Eade is the best coach we have had at the club. I don't think many can challenge that. Malthouse coached us as well but Eade did a great job.

[Eastdog]

Outside of not winning us a flag, Eade is the best coach we have had at the club. I don't think many can challenge that. Malthouse coached us as well but Eade did a great job.

Agree. Malthouse coached us when he was first starting out coaching.

[AndrewP6]

No, it's not a difference in opinions it's a different look at the facts you presented.

My opinion differed from the club's on the coach (both new and previous) ;)

[Sockeye Salmon]

Both Thompson and Worsfold had a go at coaching, had miserable years and the media was trying to get them sacked but in both instances their clubs held firm and they both won premierships.

Unlike Malthouse they had no previous premierships in the bank.

We traded an experienced, top rate coach for an unproven assistant because we didn't have the bottle to stand up to the Herald Sun journos who were looking for a story.

Eade had more injuries to deal with and played 10 debutants in a season where he could have been excused to have been trying to save his job.

It's cheap as clips all over again, only with a worse game plan.

[GVGjr]

We traded an experienced, top rate coach for an unproven assistant because we didn't have the bottle to stand up to the Herald Sun journos who were looking for a story.


Are you sure that is the case? Didn't Eade lose it when he presented his vision of the future which wasn't all that positive but probably accurate?
I really don't think the club was that worried about the opinions of Herald Sun journalists.
I think Brendan McCartney was given the job based that he presented a better recovery plan and by selling his vision on how the players needed to be developed.

[Remi Moses]

Seriously mate, don't bother ^^

[Remi Moses]

Outside of not winning us a flag, Eade is the best coach we have had at the club. I don't think many can challenge that. Malthouse coached us as well but Eade did a great job.

Reckon Mick was better than Rocket ( not by much )
Mick had less to work with and still think his coaching effort in 87 was excellent.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Are you sure that is the case? Didn't Eade lose it when he presented his vision of the future which wasn't all that positive but probably accurate?
I really don't think the club was that worried about the opinions of Herald Sun journalists.
I think Brendan McCartney was given the job based that he presented a better recovery plan and by selling his vision on how the players needed to be developed.

Purely change for change's sake. Not better, just wanted to be seen to be doing something.

[Desipura]

Both Thompson and Worsfold had a go at coaching, had miserable years and the media was trying to get them sacked but in both instances their clubs held firm and they both won premierships.

Unlike Malthouse they had no previous premierships in the bank.

We traded an experienced, top rate coach for an unproven assistant because we didn't have the bottle to stand up to the Herald Sun journos who were looking for a story.

Eade had more injuries to deal with and played 10 debutants in a season where he could have been excused to have been trying to save his job.

It's cheap as clips all over again, only with a worse game plan.

This is so ridiculous, it is funny. The herald sun journo's were the reason Eade got the sack!
Did rocket tell you that over lunch?
If our list was potentially stronger to challenge again for a tilt at the flag, rocket may still be there, it was not.

[LongWait]

Both Thompson and Worsfold had a go at coaching, had miserable years and the media was trying to get them sacked but in both instances their clubs held firm and they both won premierships.

Unlike Malthouse they had no previous premierships in the bank.

We traded an experienced, top rate coach for an unproven assistant because we didn't have the bottle to stand up to the Herald Sun journos who were looking for a story.

Eade had more injuries to deal with and played 10 debutants in a season where he could have been excused to have been trying to save his job.

It's cheap as clips all over again, only with a worse game plan.

Is this written with tongue in cheek, or do you really believe this? Serious question.

[GVGjr]

This is so ridiculous, it is funny. The herald sun journo's were the reason Eade got the sack!
Did rocket tell you that over lunch?
If our list was potentially stronger to challenge again for a tilt at the flag, rocket may still be there, it was not.

I don't think it's right to be questioning Sockeye's motives for what he has written. By all means challenge the content but none of us should be questioning the intent of others just because they have a strong view.

[anfo27]

Both Thompson and Worsfold had a go at coaching, had miserable years and the media was trying to get them sacked but in both instances their clubs held firm and they both won premierships.

Unlike Malthouse they had no previous premierships in the bank.

We traded an experienced, top rate coach for an unproven assistant because we didn't have the bottle to stand up to the Herald Sun journos who were looking for a story.

Eade had more injuries to deal with and played 10 debutants in a season where he could have been excused to have been trying to save his job.

It's cheap as clips all over again, only with a worse game plan.

Can't agree with any of this.

Getting rid of Eade was unpopular decision. Talk back radio was full of people ringing in & saying they should have kept rocket. The club showed bottle by making a decision they thought was best for the club & not doing what the majority of posters on here wanted or the majority of supporters wanted.

Eade only started playing kids when he had no other choice.

Like Eades game plan did anything for us the last 2 years? If Eade was still coach we probably would have had some more wins on the board but i don't see how a couple more wins now solves any problems for us down the road.

[The Underdog]

This factional in fighting is worse than the ALP, and equally as tedious...

[Sedat]

LongWait and Anfo27, I have a question for you. Do you think our president, CEO, head of football and board will have the intestinal fortitude to stick by BMac and his long term blueprint for success in 2 years' time if our rate of progress remains around the 5-8 wins a season for the next couple of years? Or will they bow to the pressure to protect their own careers and sacrifice the coach, even though he is carrying out his long term vision to the letter?

Another 2 years of up and down on-field performances, coupled with a continued drop in attendances and membership whilst we bide our time outside the top 8 is a scenario realistically facing us, and I genuinely fear for BMac's senior coaching aspirations beyond his initial 3 year term when potential self-interest could come into play for his employers. Our club has shown poor leadership off the field in the last couple of seasons, and I don't have an awful lot of faith in the current leaders redressing their underwhelming performance in coming seasons.

[Twodogs]

Reckon Mick was better than Rocket ( not by much )
Mick had less to work with and still think his coaching effort in 87 was excellent.

The team Mick had in '85 was the best and had the m ost talent on every line of any Footscray/Western Bulldogs side I've ever seen. It should have, at the very least made the grand final that year, and would have if Malthouse hadnt been outcoached in the prelim.

Malthouse then proceeded to run that team into the ground until '89 when he shot through to West Coast leaving us in last place on the ladder.


This factional in fighting is worse than the ALP, and equally as tedious...


Agree strongly.

[firstdogonthemoon]

Both Thompson and Worsfold had a go at coaching, had miserable years and the media was trying to get them sacked but in both instances their clubs held firm and they both won premierships.

Unlike Malthouse they had no previous premierships in the bank.

We traded an experienced, top rate coach for an unproven assistant because we didn't have the bottle to stand up to the Herald Sun journos who were looking for a story.

Eade had more injuries to deal with and played 10 debutants in a season where he could have been excused to have been trying to save his job.

It's cheap as clips all over again, only with a worse game plan.

I agree with this. I think what Sockeye is trying to say in his colourful way is that the Eade decision was a political one, not a football one. It was about arse covering. Someone had to take the blame - it was Rocket.

[bornadog]

The team Mick had in '85 was the best and had the m ost talent on every line of any Footscray/Western Bulldogs side I've ever seen. It should have, at the very least made the grand final that year, and would have if Malthouse hadnt been outcoached in the prelim.

Malthouse then proceeded to run that team into the ground until '89 when he shot through to West Coast leaving us in last place on the ladder.

This is so true. If Mick was any good, we should have made finals in 1986-88 at least as we basically had the same core players as 1985. When the going got tough at the end of 1989, he didn't want to be around and ditched us pretty quickly.

Having said that, maybe he can give us something back and come in and mentor Macca.

[Maddog37]

I agree with this. I think what Sockeye is trying to say in his colourful way is that the Eade decision was a political one, not a football one. It was about arse covering. Someone had to take the blame - it was Rocket.


Take your Rocket coloured glasses off for five minutes FDOTM. Rocket was cooked.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Eade's game plan was the same in 2011 as it was in 2005.

That's why he's now not a senior coach of any side.

[bornadog]

Take your Rocket coloured glasses off for five minutes FDOTM. Rocket was cooked.


Eade's game plan was the same in 2011 as it was in 2005.

That's why he's now not a senior coach of any side.

I think many posters are misunderstanding various posts in this thread. Its not about whether we should have kept Rocket or not, its about going from an experienced coach to a rookie having a bad season and not yet seeing the results or some light at the end of the tunnel.

Macca says all the right things and talks about developing the kids and playing a certain way, but that is not the only thing that makes a good coach. A coaches role is more than that.

There is the tactical side like planning against your next opponent, game day performance, formulating a game style, leading and motivating your players, training, managing your staff, keeping an eye out for all your players during the week, speaking in public and even promoting the club. (I may have missed a few things fell free to comment).

Whether Macca has all these attributes it remains to be seen. He has certainly been developing the young kids, but I havenot seen the other attributes at this stage.

[Hot_Doggies]

Purely change for change's sake. Not better, just wanted to be seen to be doing something.


I know for a fact Eade was wearing thin on the players. The same way he did at Sydney.

It was time for a change.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think many posters are misunderstanding various posts in this thread. Its not about whether we should have kept Rocket or not, its about going from an experienced coach to a rookie having a bad season and not yet seeing the results or some light at the end of the tunnel.

Macca says all the right things and talks about developing the kids and playing a certain way, but that is not the only thing that makes a good coach. A coaches role is more than that.

There is the tactical side like planning against your next opponent, game day performance, formulating a game style, leading and motivating your players, training, managing your staff, keeping an eye out for all your players during the week, speaking in public and even promoting the club. (I may have missed a few things fell free to comment).

Whether Macca has all these attributes it remains to be seen. He has certainly been developing the young kids, but I havenot seen the other attributes at this stage.

I agree with you, and I am not convinced on McCartney either, but posters should stop bringing Eade into discussions every time they mention our current coaching group.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Is this written with tongue in cheek, or do you really believe this? Serious question.

I was being a bit facetious about the journos, but as FDOTM said, it was a political decision, to be seen to be doing something, regardless of whether it was right.






Eade only started playing kids when he had no other choice.



Personally, I think he had no other choice as soon as Cooney and Lake went down pre-season, but Eade had played 8 debutants in the first half of the season - Liberatore, Markovic, Wallis, Skinner, Howard, Mulligan, Dahlhaus and Schofield.

Jones and Stack weren't debutants but had only played one or two games each and both started round 1. Likewise Roughead came in round 3.


If you were implying Eade only played kids at the end when it was all over you are dead wrong.

[stefoid]

The question for me is: Is this the gameplan, a gameplan, or just part of a gameplan?

[PedroArvy]

I have been flipping through past ladders at http://finalsiren.com and its has not been uncommon for a grand finalist in the last 10 years to have spent two seasons well out of the eight 4-6 years before. So why the worry with Macca?

[Maddog37]

It is the manner and size of the defeats.

[Ghost Dog]

It is the manner and size of the defeats.

This is dangerous territory. We could be instilling a losing culture into our young players. St Kilda are not an overly fast team. But we just guarded patches of ground, while players just popped into the space and took easy grabs in the f50. Their blokes didn't even break a sweat. The arial angles on TV were damaging. It showed players slowing up when they needed to keep applying pressure to the ball carrier.
There is no belief in the group. They basically want to be on the plane to Bali. Today's performance sold out every supporter who forked out their hard earned to watch us play. It was awful and could have been much worse.I do believe that Liam Picken, Luke Dahlhaus, Will Minson and a few others, tried their guts out.

[PedroArvy]

Yeah well if the statistical analysis was complete it would look at the nature of poor performances and how you can tell whether a team is a bunch of kids who are working their guts out to get better or just being flogged with no hope for improvement.

[Ghost Dog]

I think many posters are misunderstanding various posts in this thread. Its not about whether we should have kept Rocket or not, its about going from an experienced coach to a rookie having a bad season and not yet seeing the results or some light at the end of the tunnel.

Macca says all the right things and talks about developing the kids and playing a certain way, but that is not the only thing that makes a good coach. A coaches role is more than that.

There is the tactical side like planning against your next opponent, game day performance, formulating a game style, leading and motivating your players, training, managing your staff, keeping an eye out for all your players during the week, speaking in public and even promoting the club. (I may have missed a few things fell free to comment).

Whether Macca has all these attributes it remains to be seen. He has certainly been developing the young kids, but I havenot seen the other attributes at this stage.


You can basically get a bit of paper and draw a line down the center.
On one side, write ' what do I see?' on the other ' what do I think?'.

hugging the boundary, chipping the ball around, unable to get it out > players not running hard enough
Lots of turnovers inside our 50 / kicking into the man on the mark > pressure getting to us
Senior players showing signs of agitation > Seniors not confident or not adjusting to the game plan.
Senior players gone missing in the tackling stat > Just not enough application from the leadership group

[bornadog]

I have been flipping through past ladders at http://finalsiren.com and its has not been uncommon for a grand finalist in the last 10 years to have spent two seasons well out of the eight 4-6 years before. So why the worry with Macca?

you missed a couple of zeros, make that 51 years.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

For those that haven't seen or heard it, go and check McCartney's press conference on afl.com.au.

It's a pretty good one and it eases the pain a little. He does put some perspective into it, whilst also bluntly stating that it isn't acceptable.

Personally I am still unconvinced on this coaching group, but I did enjoy listening to it so check it out if you haven't.

[The Underdog]

For those that haven't seen or heard it, go and check McCartney's press conference on afl.com.au.

It's a pretty good one and it eases the pain a little. He does put some perspective into it, whilst also bluntly stating that it isn't acceptable.

Personally I am still unconvinced on this coaching group, but I did enjoy listening to it so check it out if you haven't.

I'm not sure if he can coach but he sure gives good press conference

[AndrewP6]

For those that haven't seen or heard it, go and check McCartney's press conference on afl.com.au.

It's a pretty good one and it eases the pain a little. He does put some perspective into it, whilst also bluntly stating that it isn't acceptable.

Personally I am still unconvinced on this coaching group, but I did enjoy listening to it so check it out if you haven't.

The last couple of minutes was good. For mine, he needs to show more of that.

[LostDoggy]

For those that haven't seen or heard it, go and check McCartney's press conference on afl.com.au.

It's a pretty good one and it eases the pain a little. He does put some perspective into it, whilst also bluntly stating that it isn't acceptable.

Personally I am still unconvinced on this coaching group, but I did enjoy listening to it so check it out if you haven't.

Just watched the presser and I feel better about where we're heading. I could sense some real frustration in Macca and I also admire that he is not wavering from the plan. I really think that the main issue with our team is a list issue and in particular, the lack of quality players in the 50-100 game area. Macca inherited this list and he can only work with what he has. Had we adopted a shoot out game style we would most likely still get flogged and the young guys wouldn't be learning how to play good contested footy. It's hard to watch this happening at the moment but it is going to take time unfortunately.

[mjp]

Can we please just kick a goal occasionally?

I like goals - well, not so much when the other team get them, but in general I like goals. Goals bring hope that there might be MORE goals...

I know it is all about teaching and contested ball but can it just be about building a bit of excitement and enthusiasm for a few weeks...let's make August about goals and October ==> February about contested ball. Them next March it will be time for goals.

[AndrewP6]

Just watched the presser and I feel better about where we're heading. I could sense some real frustration in Macca and I also admire that he is not wavering from the plan.

Which is? Doesn't appear the players know what the plan is...or they're not capable of carrying it out.
IMO the frustration is in regards to the questions starting to be asked.

[jeemak]

Can we please just kick a goal occasionally?

I like goals - well, not so much when the other team get them, but in general I like goals. Goals bring hope that there might be MORE goals...

I know it is all about teaching and contested ball but can it just be about building a bit of excitement and enthusiasm for a few weeks...let's make August about goals and October ==> February about contested ball. Them next March it will be time for goals.

I'm not sure we have the personnel to flick the switch like that though MJP. There just isn't enough firepower on our list to accommodate that sort of style, and I think we've gone so far down our current path it would be counter productive to change the message now.

Though, I like goals too.

[KT31]

I have been flipping through past ladders at http://finalsiren.com and its has not been uncommon for a grand finalist in the last 10 years to have spent two seasons well out of the eight 4-6 years before. So why the worry with Macca?

Because if this continues we will have only us as members and be gone.
I have not seen so many insipid performances from a bulldog or Footscray side.
I'm willing to give Macca a chance but statements and lackluster performances don't do it for me.
If this was Smorgans company he would be demanding better results.
At the moment as far as I am concerned and I imagine a lot of members are concerned we have three weeks to show a bit of character or heart.
At the moment I'm hoping tanking, but thinking McRhode.

[LostDoggy]

Which is? Doesn't appear the players know what the plan is...or they're not capable of carrying it out.
IMO the frustration is in regards to the questions starting to be asked.

Well the way I see it is that we need to teach the young guys quickly as the mid age players who would ordinarily replace your Boyds, Murphys and Lakes etc just aren't on the list. I could be wrong but that's just the way I'm reading it.

[MrMahatma]

Clearly there'll be a load of list changes this year. There has to be. Macca can't keep the same blokes.

I can't help thinking next season won't be much better though. I think the "build from within" mantra is nice, but can we afford a few years of this rubbish - and there's no guarantee it'll bring results either.

[jeemak]

Which is? Doesn't appear the players know what the plan is...or they're not capable of carrying it out.
IMO the frustration is in regards to the questions starting to be asked.

Is that just you being a cynic or do you actually believe the coach is only frustrated by questions being asked of him, rather than our performances?

[bornadog]

Can we please just kick a goal occasionally?

I like goals - well, not so much when the other team get them, but in general I like goals. Goals bring hope that there might be MORE goals...

I know it is all about teaching and contested ball but can it just be about building a bit of excitement and enthusiasm for a few weeks...let's make August about goals and October ==> February about contested ball. Them next March it will be time for goals.

this^^^^

I can't believe our scores this year after being one of the highest scoring teams in the AFL since 2005.

[AndrewP6]

Is that just you being a cynic or do you actually believe the coach is only frustrated by questions being asked of him, rather than our performances?

Probably both, but to me he is starting to be asked questions, and doesn't have the answers.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Can we please just kick a goal occasionally?

I like goals - well, not so much when the other team get them, but in general I like goals. Goals bring hope that there might be MORE goals...

I know it is all about teaching and contested ball but can it just be about building a bit of excitement and enthusiasm for a few weeks...let's make August about goals and October ==> February about contested ball. Them next March it will be time for goals.

What's a 'goal'?

[anfo27]

LongWait and Anfo27, I have a question for you. Do you think our president, CEO, head of football and board will have the intestinal fortitude to stick by BMac and his long term blueprint for success in 2 years' time if our rate of progress remains around the 5-8 wins a season for the next couple of years? Or will they bow to the pressure to protect their own careers and sacrifice the coach, even though he is carrying out his long term vision to the letter?

Another 2 years of up and down on-field performances, coupled with a continued drop in attendances and membership whilst we bide our time outside the top 8 is a scenario realistically facing us, and I genuinely fear for BMac's senior coaching aspirations beyond his initial 3 year term when potential self-interest could come into play for his employers. Our club has shown poor leadership off the field in the last couple of seasons, and I don't have an awful lot of faith in the current leaders redressing their underwhelming performance in coming seasons.

Isn't Smorgan finishing up at the end of next year?

I think we will see some improvement next year but we probably won't see an improvement in the wins column. I'm concerned that next year the pressure will mount, members will drop off & the media spot light might actually be on us. Smorgan leaves & his successor doesn't agree with some of his decisions &one of those being the senior coach.

I agree with you Sedat & I too fear for maccas coaching career in a year or 2.

I think if he is given the time & support to do the job he has been employed to do then we are going to be in for a hell of a ride in a couple of years.

[Eastdog]

What is the game plan? Contested footy? Sure thats all well and good but we need to do something more and that is non-existent at the moment.

2003 team or 2012 team - which one has more 'upside'.

[Dancin' Douggy]

What's a 'goal'?

Well. You know that yellow thing?
That's a ball.

See that's educational already isn't it?

If you kick that ball through the middle of the two bigger sticks, that's a goal.

[jeemak]

Probably both, but to me he is starting to be asked questions, and doesn't have the answers.

How often can you recall him deviating from the message he presented as soon as he took over the reigns?

I can't recall any instances in which he has.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Well. You know that yellow thing?
That's a ball.

See that's educational already isn't it?

If you kick that ball through the middle of the two bigger sticks, that's a goal.

You mean like St. Kilda did all day? Now I understand. Are both teams allowed to do it?

[LostDoggy]

No a goal is winning a contest.
You win the contested football, you win the game. Scoreboard doesn't matter.

[Eastdog]

What is really disappointing is that we just don't look like scoring at all and you are not going to win too many games like that. What has been our average score goals, behinds and points this year because we are probably need the bottom on that statistic.

[AndrewP6]

How often can you recall him deviating from the message he presented as soon as he took over the reigns?

I can't recall any instances in which he has.

No, he hasn't. But nor has he had the spotlight on him. In that clip, I sensed him getting a bit narky with the questioning.

[jeemak]

No, he hasn't. But nor has he had the spotlight on him. In that clip, I sensed him getting a bit narky with the questioning.

Fair enough. I think he's going to show more and more frustration over the coming weeks, and potentially into the coming year or so.

The media is going to milk it for all its worth. Similar questions in their vacuousness, and stupidity will start to wear thin on him and he will have moments where he gives the odd stare and produces a sarcastic answer. The media after inducing this, will put him under the pump with their commentary in print and across radio and TV broadcasts and during that time we'll either improve visibly, or we'll stagnate on field.

The whole circus is going to be focusing on the Western Bulldogs for the remainder of this year, and probably the remainder of next year. As Sedat has said, it's going to be very interesting to see if McCartney can handle it.

[Ghost Dog]

No, he hasn't. But nor has he had the spotlight on him. In that clip, I sensed him getting a bit narky with the questioning.

And rocket never used to get narky with reporters:rolleyes:
I just watched it and I dn't think he got narky or was disrespectful. He just laid down a robust answer to the question, " is there a danger that we are getting used to these smashings?"
Despite his very confient answer, full of pride, I think there is no doubt we are a team that has gotten used to being behind. Having said that, there are clearly a few players who do not care less. Luke Dahlhaus may indeed get the footy signed by the team today. What spirit and determination.

The best thing we could all do is start to encourage the young blokes more. I wonder if they feel the supporters have deserted them a bit?

[AndrewP6]

And rocket never used to get narky with reporters:roll eyes:

Sure he did, but I think maybe McCartney got that way because he knows he doesn't have the answers. I'd like to see him show a bit more emotion, rather than just go on about 'education' and 'good people'.


The best thing we could all do is start to encourage the young blokes more. I wonder if they feel the supporters have deserted them a bit?

If they're going to go anywhere, they won't care in the slightest what we think.

[KT31]

No a goal is winning a contest.
You win the contested football, you win the game. Scoreboard doesn't matter.

Except the team in front on it wins.;)

[jeemak]

Sure he did, but I think maybe McCartney got that way because he knows he doesn't have the answers. I'd like to see him show a bit more emotion, rather than just go on about 'education' and 'good people'.



If they're going to go anywhere, they won't care in the slightest what we think.

Come on mate. Showing more emotion would only present as frustration or annoyance, and you'd pounce on that just as easily as you've pounced on him today.

[AndrewP6]

Come on mate. Showing more emotion would only present as frustration or annoyance, and you'd pounce on that just as easily as you've pounced on him today.

Nope, I wouldn't mind seeing some annoyance.

[Ghost Dog]

Sure he did, but I think maybe McCartney got that way because he knows he doesn't have the answers. I'd like to see him show a bit more emotion, rather than just go on about 'education' and 'good people'.

If they're going to go anywhere, they won't care in the slightest what we think.


Fair enough. When you are losing badly, anything the coach said would sound like a useless mantra. But put yourself in his shoes for a moment, seeing us being pantsed and not being able to affect the result.

I watched a Chris Grant interview the other day ( open mike AFL )
It's on youtube. If anyone has the right to feel emotional about his experience with the Dogs, it would be Chris.
But he had the point, that footy gives us highs and lows, but at least you know you are alive!
It's unrealistic to expect the highs without the lows. I'm going to be there on that Day, when we clinch a win, or get to another prelim or maybe even a final. But today is going to make me savour the next high even more.

[FrediKanoute]

The question for me is: Is this the gameplan, a gameplan, or just part of a gameplan?

Its part. Its the foundation to the greater plan. As Macca emphasised in the presser, teach the guys to play in a certain way. This year is about teaching the guys.

[jeemak]

Nope, I wouldn't mind seeing some annoyance.

Well if you know Bmac well enough to know the difference between annoyance and frustration that you believe he showed today then you're a better reader of people than I! :o

[Topdog]

I think had we not had Barry last year, we would have struggled to score much the same as this year.

Barry missed 7 games last year. We were pretty crap at times without him. Had 2 games of 100 and 3 games under 60

[Topdog]

GWS are able to score more easily. I can't believe that some aren't concerned that we are 18th in the league - yes last - for I50 to goals.

As for the presser Griff handled the questions pretty well.

[FrediKanoute]

No, he hasn't. But nor has he had the spotlight on him. In that clip, I sensed him getting a bit narky with the questioning.

I didn't. If he seemed pissed it was pissed that they guys aren't following instructions.

[FrediKanoute]

Sure he did, but I think maybe McCartney got that way because he knows he doesn't have the answers. I'd like to see him show a bit more emotion, rather than just go on about 'education' and 'good people'.

What tosh! The comments are supposition based on what specifically? Emotion? Eade was criticised by all and sundry for the emotional way in which he berated players and now Macca is the iceman.

Lets just focus on facts rather than supposition, rumour and inuendo:

1) We have lost on the past 2 seasons Johnno, Aker, Halll and Welsh from our forward line - is it any wonder we are stuggling to kick goals;

2) We lost due to expansion clubs 2 key guys in Ward & Harbrow, both just at the point they were starting to blossom;

3) We yielded nothing from the last Super draft having delisted or traded Everitt, Stack, Hill, Lynch etc - guys who would now be in the 50 to 100 game bracket;

4) We have had a pretty average run with injuries - Morris, Marco, Williams, Wood, Cooney and now Higgo and Crossall being injured for large chunks of the year.

How exactly is any of this Macca's fault? Would Eade have had the answers? He struggled last year with no Harbrow, Cooney and Lake, but at least he had most of his 2009/10 Prelim side. We have dropped so dramatically because we have lost proven match winners.

[Mantis]

Its part. Its the foundation to the greater plan. As Macca emphasised in the presser, teach the guys to play in a certain way. This year is about teaching the guys.

What are they learning at present?

[GVGjr]

What are they learning at present?

I doubt there is a lot you can learn when we are playing so poorly and getting thrashed. Maybe it's more about what they are learning from the errors they make when they review the previous weeks performance.

The teaching approach has a limited shelf life as far as I am concerned. Next year we can't use the same explanations. He's got a mess to clean up and as Fredi has correctly pointed out a lot of it isn't his fault but come 2013 he needs to accept that he has to make a positive difference in the way we perform.

[AndrewP6]

What tosh! The comments are supposition based on what specifically? Emotion? Eade was criticised by all and sundry for the emotional way in which he berated players and now Macca is the iceman.

Not by me. That is also fact.



1) We have lost on the past 2 seasons Johnno, Aker, Halll and Welsh from our forward line - is it any wonder we are stuggling to kick goals;

Hate to shoot down a 'fact', but Welsh retired at the end of 2009, that's not two years.




How exactly is any of this Macca's fault? Would Eade have had the answers? He struggled last year with no Harbrow, Cooney and Lake, but at least he had most of his 2009/10 Prelim side. We have dropped so dramatically because we have lost proven match winners.

Where have I said it's all his fault? I have said that his 'education and good people cracking in' approach isn't getting it done - our abysmal showing the last 6 weeks is proof of that. I have also said I'd like him to show more emotion re: our abysmal season, and that I don't believe he has what it takes as a senior coach. That's opinion, to which I am entitled, regardless of whether or not you or anyone else thinks it is 'tosh'.

[The Doctor]

What are they learning at present?

Nothing

All we have learnt is how to play dumb, stupid & uninspiring football. The players don't know what to do, they don't back themselves or their instincts.

I don't buy the 'education mantra'. Frankly i'm quite sick of hearing it. Whatever is being taught is either not enough, not understood, outdated or irrelevant.

I don't blame BMac for the mess we are in (The inept Footy Dept has sole claim for this) but he doesn't seem to know how to clean it up.

[BulldogBelle]

One day I hope we can win some uncontested ball as well.

[MrMahatma]

What are they learning at present?
I get the impression it's about learning when to attack and when to defend. Not being an either/or player or team.

Not saying it's happening, but think that's the general theme of what the coaches are trying to instill.

[MrMahatma]

Nothing

All we have learnt is how to play dumb, stupid & uninspiring football. The players don't know what to do, they don't back themselves or their instincts.

I don't buy the 'education mantra'. Frankly i'm quite sick of hearing it. Whatever is being taught is either not enough, not understood, outdated or irrelevant.

I don't blame BMac for the mess we are in (The inept Footy Dept has sole claim for this) but he doesn't seem to know how to clean it up.
I think they're being taught new instincts.

[LostDoggy]

There needs to be a majo shake of the footy department.... Appears to be alot of defiencies there, it is sad to think that we will never have the money of the Pies, crows, eagles to spend on it, so what do we do. I wonder though is it worth while sending players overseas to train at altitude, is that the reason the Pies have been successful or doe it just come down to the footy department. Do we need to spend that money?

[Mantis]

I get the impression it's about learning when to attack and when to defend. Not being an either/or player or team.

Not saying it's happening, but think that's the general theme of what the coaches are trying to instill.

We are neither at present.

If we were locking down teams these losses might be a bit more bearable, but we aren't and with no attacking flair being shown it's tough to keep watching.

[Mofra]

Clearly there'll be a load of list changes this year. There has to be. Macca can't keep the same blokes.
Given we have 5 picks inside the first 2 and a bit rounds, and B-Mac has set some non-negotiables, I would be surprised if he isn't a little savage with the cuts.

May be a few eyebrows raised.

[Mofra]

I get the impression it's about learning when to attack and when to defend. Not being an either/or player or team.

Not saying it's happening, but think that's the general theme of what the coaches are trying to instill.
I think he's trying to instill an instinct to be in the contest.
Some blokes have it, some don't. Once it's a non-negotiable, the next lesson starts. Hopefully that's 2013 pre-season because I doubt many can sit through much more of the crap we're dishing up at the moment.

[Sedat]

I think he's trying to instill an instinct to be in the contest.
Some blokes have it, some don't. Once it's a non-negotiable, the next lesson starts. Hopefully that's 2013 pre-season because I doubt many can sit through much more of the crap we're dishing up at the moment.
I guess 'cracking in' is BMac's version of Mr Miyagi's 'wax on wax off' teaching philosophy to the Karate Kid, and only once we have fully mastered this will he move on to other areas with the playing group. I'm really trying to find some positives from the last couple of months :o

[LostDoggy]

The young players are being matched up with champions from other clubs.

This is designed to ACCELERATE their development.

They are being taught about positioning, concentration, tricks of the trade, fitness levels, how to block and negate.

These players are in the engine room and off half back. They are the likes of Smith, Libba and Wallis.

We have about 30 players on the list who have 3 years experience or less.

What Macca appears to be saying is that he is sacrificing the chance of winning by going back to the basics. Teach the kids how to play contested footy BEFORE their bodies are ready, so that when they are ready, they can influence a game for longer and with greater impact.

What this means is that when young players go away from the game plan (for they are surely carrying heavy work loads) we are split open. With patience, the players will be so much better when they have the bodies to go with it.

It means that playing slick outside footy comes second because we are not winning the inside ball in such a way as to allow it. It is clear that we need to recruit in this area. Macca has said as much. When you watch Hawthorn and the way they move the ball, the length of their kicks, the accuracy, the left footers……the contrast with us is so glaringly obvious. We simply don't have the players at the elite level who are quality ball users.

It also means that young players get knocked over and we lose our resolve. It's because there isn't enough experience in the side to carry the many youngsters on the learning curve. It's because we are at the back end of a long season. It's because we are trying to teach them but some are not capable of improving.

In essence, it is a logical and, hopefully, very rewarding plan.

Criticism of the coach is short sighted and looks at results and playing style rather than how best to accelerate the development of the youngsters at his disposal right now. Criticize him for that if you must, but I am very happy with the path we are taking.

[bornadog]

We are neither at present.

If we were locking down teams these losses might be a bit more bearable, but we aren't and with no attacking flair being shown it's tough to keep watching.

This was one of the biggest criticisms of the Rocket era by many on this board. It was all about how Rocket didn't understand the modern game and didn't adapt to the forward press and didn't know how to coach against the forward press. Which at the time I thought was a load of crap.

Now we are seeing the other extreme of how we are not adapting to modern footy by the ten plus goal thrashings we have seen (- 5 times, plus a 58 point and 49 point).

In 2003 we lost nine in a row, we are heading for ten losses in a row. At least in 2003 we could kick goals, but this season we have seen the worst performances by a Bulldogs team, particularly in the second half, since 1980.

[KT31]

This was one of the biggest criticisms of the Rocket era by many on this board. It was all about how Rocket didn't understand the modern game and didn't adapt to the forward press and didn't know how to coach against the forward press. Which at the time I thought was a load of crap.

Now we are seeing the other extreme of how we are not adapting to modern footy by the ten plus goal thrashings we have seen (- 5 times, plus a 58 point and 49 point).

In 2003 we lost nine in a row, we are heading for ten losses in a row. At least in 2003 we could kick goals, but this season we have seen the worst performances by a Bulldogs team, particularly in the second half, since 1980.

At least we had KT to watch in 1980.

[LostDoggy]

Surely there has to be more in the teaching than simply, "cracking in?"

This is neither new or diffferent. Sanderson quotes this all the time but he also talks about other and possibly more important issues like game plan. What is our game plan?

We seem to play large numbers behind the ball, yet oppostion players bob up unimpeded in their forward line within easy range of goal eg Hayes yesterday. How is this so?

On the odd ocasion when we win the ball and attempt to move it forward quickly we have no one to kick the ball to. Jones did nothing yesterday but what hope did he have? Gia is criticised elsewhere but his efforts against what was served up yesterday were outstanding.

With centre bounces, we have two players attempting to lock out an opponent. What chance then do we have of winning our own ball?

The OP questions the coach. In my view the same questions need to be asked of his assistants although it must be recognised that he instructs (or should instruct) them too.

I don't profess to know the answers but in well over 50 years of supporting the Club, this is the worst team performance (over the second half of the season) I have seen. And right now I see no light at the end of the tunnel.

But I will jump in my car on Friday and drive 740 kms once again to attend the game on Saturday.

[LongWait]

The young players are being matched up with champions from other clubs.

This is designed to ACCELERATE their development.

They are being taught about positioning, concentration, tricks of the trade, fitness levels, how to block and negate.

These players are in the engine room and off half back. They are the likes of Smith, Libba and Wallis.

We have about 30 players on the list who have 3 years experience or less.

What Macca appears to be saying is that he is sacrificing the chance of winning by going back to the basics. Teach the kids how to play contested footy BEFORE their bodies are ready, so that when they are ready, they can influence a game for longer and with greater impact.

What this means is that when young players go away from the game plan (for they are surely carrying heavy work loads) we are split open. With patience, the players will be so much better when they have the bodies to go with it.

It means that playing slick outside footy comes second because we are not winning the inside ball in such a way as to allow it. It is clear that we need to recruit in this area. Macca has said as much. When you watch Hawthorn and the way they move the ball, the length of their kicks, the accuracy, the left footers……the contrast with us is so glaringly obvious. We simply don't have the players at the elite level who are quality ball users.

It also means that young players get knocked over and we lose our resolve. It's because there isn't enough experience in the side to carry the many youngsters on the learning curve. It's because we are at the back end of a long season. It's because we are trying to teach them but some are not capable of improving.

In essence, it is a logical and, hopefully, very rewarding plan.

Criticism of the coach is short sighted and looks at results and playing style rather than how best to accelerate the development of the youngsters at his disposal right now. Criticize him for that if you must, but I am very happy with the path we are taking.

Thank God someone on here gets it!

[LongWait]

LongWait and Anfo27, I have a question for you. Do you think our president, CEO, head of football and board will have the intestinal fortitude to stick by BMac and his long term blueprint for success in 2 years' time if our rate of progress remains around the 5-8 wins a season for the next couple of years? Or will they bow to the pressure to protect their own careers and sacrifice the coach, even though he is carrying out his long term vision to the letter?

Another 2 years of up and down on-field performances, coupled with a continued drop in attendances and membership whilst we bide our time outside the top 8 is a scenario realistically facing us, and I genuinely fear for BMac's senior coaching aspirations beyond his initial 3 year term when potential self-interest could come into play for his employers. Our club has shown poor leadership off the field in the last couple of seasons, and I don't have an awful lot of faith in the current leaders redressing their underwhelming performance in coming seasons.

I don't know the answer to your first question - we can't know the unknowable. I guess you could say the club leadership had the guts to not re-appoint Eade when the easiest thing to do would have been to re-appoint him. Hopefully the team's performances will improve over the next two years and your question will remain hypothetical.

As for your second point - I'm sure that the coach is well aware that the team must improve or his AFL coaching career will be over. I don't lose any sleep over this.

[bornadog]

At least we had KT to watch in 1980.

Yeah, what a star, one of my all time favourites.

[Ghost Dog]

The young players are being matched up with champions from other clubs.

This is designed to ACCELERATE their development.

They are being taught about positioning, concentration, tricks of the trade, fitness levels, how to block and negate.

These players are in the engine room and off half back. They are the likes of Smith, Libba and Wallis.

We have about 30 players on the list who have 3 years experience or less.

What Macca appears to be saying is that he is sacrificing the chance of winning by going back to the basics. Teach the kids how to play contested footy BEFORE their bodies are ready, so that when they are ready, they can influence a game for longer and with greater impact.

What this means is that when young players go away from the game plan (for they are surely carrying heavy work loads) we are split open. With patience, the players will be so much better when they have the bodies to go with it.

It means that playing slick outside footy comes second because we are not winning the inside ball in such a way as to allow it. It is clear that we need to recruit in this area. Macca has said as much. When you watch Hawthorn and the way they move the ball, the length of their kicks, the accuracy, the left footers……the contrast with us is so glaringly obvious. We simply don't have the players at the elite level who are quality ball users.

It also means that young players get knocked over and we lose our resolve. It's because there isn't enough experience in the side to carry the many youngsters on the learning curve. It's because we are at the back end of a long season. It's because we are trying to teach them but some are not capable of improving.

In essence, it is a logical and, hopefully, very rewarding plan.

Criticism of the coach is short sighted and looks at results and playing style rather than how best to accelerate the development of the youngsters at his disposal right now. Criticize him for that if you must, but I am very happy with the path we are taking.

Now this is a well thought out post, well written, obviously with some care and serious intent behind it. I can't disagree.

However, the issues for me would be the body language of many senior players, seemingly throwing in the towel. I won't name names. If we cannot rely on them to stick at it, how can we ask the kids to do it? One wonders if this is a reflection on the coach / player relationship or what that might be?

If we are serious about teaching these kids, we cannot afford to have any in our side, especially those in the leadership group who do not give a four quarter effort, or run both ways. Our marking yesterday was a disgrace. One would reason that the capacity to be dogged is at a premium over silk, as that's what we are trying to teach the kids, and we are likely to lose anyway. Right?

You would rather learn piano, cooking, or any skill from a guy who practices every day, but is average, than one who is brilliant but dedicates himself to his craft, only when its going well. We had several senior players who got not one tackle yesterday.

If I were Macca, I would be telling them that they were playing 4 mini games. A tackle inside 50 is a goal. If we are to develop rather than win games then lets move the goal posts a bit.

And metal, by the way, love your work.

[LostDoggy]

Metal, fantastic post.

[Desipura]

The young players are being matched up with champions from other clubs.

This is designed to ACCELERATE their development.

They are being taught about positioning, concentration, tricks of the trade, fitness levels, how to block and negate.

These players are in the engine room and off half back. They are the likes of Smith, Libba and Wallis.

We have about 30 players on the list who have 3 years experience or less.

What Macca appears to be saying is that he is sacrificing the chance of winning by going back to the basics. Teach the kids how to play contested footy BEFORE their bodies are ready, so that when they are ready, they can influence a game for longer and with greater impact.

What this means is that when young players go away from the game plan (for they are surely carrying heavy work loads) we are split open. With patience, the players will be so much better when they have the bodies to go with it.

It means that playing slick outside footy comes second because we are not winning the inside ball in such a way as to allow it. It is clear that we need to recruit in this area. Macca has said as much. When you watch Hawthorn and the way they move the ball, the length of their kicks, the accuracy, the left footers……the contrast with us is so glaringly obvious. We simply don't have the players at the elite level who are quality ball users.

It also means that young players get knocked over and we lose our resolve. It's because there isn't enough experience in the side to carry the many youngsters on the learning curve. It's because we are at the back end of a long season. It's because we are trying to teach them but some are not capable of improving.

In essence, it is a logical and, hopefully, very rewarding plan.

Criticism of the coach is short sighted and looks at results and playing style rather than how best to accelerate the development of the youngsters at his disposal right now. Criticize him for that if you must, but I am very happy with the path we are taking.
I think this is a very well thought out post. Makes alot of sense and hopefully some of the harsh critics can take something out of this.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I know he's much loved and he's leading our votes, but I've been disappointed with Ryan Griffen's year. His efforts have flucuated from quarter to quarter let alone week to week. I understand he's getting heavily tagged each week and not having Cooney in the side hurts, but I watch him closely and some of Ryan's flaws 2-3 years ago are still apparent. Only now, it's worse, because we are relying on him more heavily.

Griff is obviously a good player and the least of our concerns, but he hasn't had a good season. His disposal particularly is ordinary and he sprays far too many shots at goal from spots he should nail them from.

There's a noticeable class difference between the game's elite and Griff from where I sit, which disappoints me, as on talent he should be right up there.

[LostDoggy]

We have certainly accelerated the development of Jones, Roughead, Howard and a few others.

[SlimPickens]

I know he's much loved and he's leading our votes, but I've been disappointed with Ryan Griffen's year. His efforts have flucuated from quarter to quarter let alone week to week. I understand he's getting heavily tagged each week and not having Cooney in the side hurts, but I watch him closely and some of Ryan's flaws 2-3 years ago are still apparent. Only now, it's worse, because we are relying on him more heavily.

Griff is obviously a good player and the least of our concerns, but he hasn't had a good season. His disposal particularly is ordinary and he sprays far too many shots at goal from spots he should nail them from.

There's a noticeable class difference between the game's elite and Griff from where I sit, which disappoints me, as on talent he should be right up there.

Agree but geez he copes a hiding every week. The only player i have seen block for Griffen (and trust me i've looked for it) is Libba. He needs a chop out where possible and just isn't getting it.

[G-Mo77]

Agree but geez he copes a hiding every week. The only player i have seen block for Griffen (and trust me i've looked for it) is Libba. He needs a chop out where possible and just isn't getting it.

The same thing I watch for as well and only notice Libba. When we were at the upper part of the ladder running into the Cats I was always really impressed with how hard they worked to try and free Ablett up and always walked away disappointed that our mids just didn't work that bit harder for each other.

I noticed yesterday they started Griff on the HFF and I think they did the week before as well.

[FrediKanoute]

Now this is a well thought out post, well written, obviously with some care and serious intent behind it. I can't disagree.

However, the issues for me would be the body language of many senior players, seemingly throwing in the towel. I won't name names. If we cannot rely on them to stick at it, how can we ask the kids to do it? One wonders if this is a reflection on the coach / player relationship or what that might be?

If we are serious about teaching these kids, we cannot afford to have any in our side, especially those in the leadership group who do not give a four quarter effort, or run both ways. Our marking yesterday was a disgrace. One would reason that the capacity to be dogged is at a premium over silk, as that's what we are trying to teach the kids, and we are likely to lose anyway. Right?

You would rather learn piano, cooking, or any skill from a guy who practices every day, but is average, than one who is brilliant but dedicates himself to his craft, only when its going well. We had several senior players who got not one tackle yesterday.

If I were Macca, I would be telling them that they were playing 4 mini games. A tackle inside 50 is a goal. If we are to develop rather than win games then lets move the goal posts a bit.

And metal, by the way, love your work.

This sums up the problem with our club. Not the coach. Not the President. Not the Assistants. We have a senior core of players who whilst they are gifted are mentally weak. The result is that when things don't go their way they cave.

[FrediKanoute]

Not by me. That is also fact.




Hate to shoot down a 'fact', but Welsh retired at the end of 2009, that's not two years.





Where have I said it's all his fault? I have said that his 'education and good people cracking in' approach isn't getting it done - our abysmal showing the last 6 weeks is proof of that. I have also said I'd like him to show more emotion re: our abysmal season, and that I don't believe he has what it takes as a senior coach. That's opinion, to which I am entitled, regardless of whether or not you or anyone else thinks it is 'tosh'.

What you are saying though is that his strategy isn't working and that he isn't up to the task of being a senior coach, when the facts are completely different. He is not coaching the Bulldogs circa 2008/9/10. We don't have a Johnno, or an Aker, or a Hall capable of providing a focal point. We have lost major players for long periods through the season. Its all very well to say he is not up and dribble out the "cracking is bad mantra" that seems to have pervaded the cynics on this board, but what alternatives are there? Do you persist with DJ/Sherman/Hargrave who either wont change or are cooked or do you throw guys in and say, have a crack. These are the team rules go out there and show me you can play disciplined team football?

I'm not going to prolong this, but your general thrust through your posts have been anti-Macca and you are entitled to your opinion on that. I for one am not worried about the coach. I sincerely believe he has a plan and that this just phase 1. The club would be doing itself a major injustice if it pulled the plug on this early because it can't stomach the results. You don't get change without pain. You don't rebuild a football club from the ground up without radically changing what people are doing.

This thread is born out of frustration of supporters. I understand that. There is a bigger picture though and if you go back to the facts I presented, then what is being done makes sense.

[FrediKanoute]

Thank God someone on here gets it!

Seconded! Be disappointed yes, but there is method!

[FrediKanoute]

We have certainly accelerated the development of Jones, Roughead, Howard and a few others.

Jones was going to struggle this season without HAll + the added attention. Watching the game on the weekend he may be a great contested mark, but he doesn't work hard enough. Howard.....was he ever really up to AFL standard? Roughie I would argue has been good this seaason and has developed more stings to his bow.

[Bulldog4life]

Isn't Smorgan finishing up at the end of next year?

I think we will see some improvement next year but we probably won't see an improvement in the wins column. I'm concerned that next year the pressure will mount, members will drop off & the media spot light might actually be on us. Smorgan leaves & his successor doesn't agree with some of his decisions &one of those being the senior coach.

I agree with you Sedat & I too fear for maccas coaching career in a year or 2.

I think if he is given the time & support to do the job he has been employed to do then we are going to be in for a hell of a ride in a couple of years.

Sorry I have let the last 6 or so Posters get away with SMORGAN but really guys it is not hard to spell our president's name correctly...SMORGON. I realize he has only been there 15 years.:rolleyes: My pet hate.:mad:

[LostDoggy]

Jones was going to struggle this season without HAll + the added attention. Watching the game on the weekend he may be a great contested mark, but he doesn't work hard enough. Howard.....was he ever really up to AFL standard? Roughie I would argue has been good this seaason and has developed more stings to his bow.

Vezpremi, Grant, Djerrkura?
By playing Gilbee, have we advanced his development? Murphy in a defensive role. Resting players when they have been ok?
Fail to see playing 3 rucks has helped in any development either.

[Ghost Dog]

This sums up the problem with our club. Not the coach. Not the President. Not the Assistants. We have a senior core of players who whilst they are gifted are mentally weak. The result is that when things don't go their way they cave.

I would not say weak; these are elite athletes we are talking about. However, I will name a name, ( with the caveat that I absolutely love the guy. )

Brian Lake has been an absolute warrior for us. 2011 was his Annus horribilis. He a was sold out in a filthy way by having his ability to play injured questioned and his name bandied about in a disrespectful way in the media. Had an absolutely dirty year. Now in 2012, not a game goes by that I take for granted he is in our team. I just love him.

I think he is only starting to get a sense of just how valuable he is to these young blokes. People with freakish natural ability sometimes take a while to adapt to a regime that demands they leave everything on the field. The gifted player always leaves a little in reserve for the freakish, so it doesn't come natural for them to walk like a turtle when they've been hares for the past 10 years. Shaun Higgins is another who has or was improving out of sight this season, with those one percenters.

Brian packed up shop a few times on Sunday. Hell I empathize! But he really needs to understand that to my mind, what he is able to teach these young blokes may end up being more important than any other football achievement he manages to get. A four quarter effort is what you demand from someone of his stature and payscale. That being said, I fully understand with the amount of ball going in, how hard it would be to maintain any sort of dignity.

The plodders, the Crosses, the Boyds, the Liam Pickens, the Dale Morrises. These kinds of blokes, not blessed with natural talents of the Judd or Franklin variety, carry the team. That's the kind of spirit Bmac wants to instill. Good on him. Others, take note!

[Redemption97]

The young players are being matched up with champions from other clubs.

This is designed to ACCELERATE their development.

They are being taught about positioning, concentration, tricks of the trade, fitness levels, how to block and negate.

These players are in the engine room and off half back. They are the likes of Smith, Libba and Wallis.

We have about 30 players on the list who have 3 years experience or less.

What Macca appears to be saying is that he is sacrificing the chance of winning by going back to the basics. Teach the kids how to play contested footy BEFORE their bodies are ready, so that when they are ready, they can influence a game for longer and with greater impact.

What this means is that when young players go away from the game plan (for they are surely carrying heavy work loads) we are split open. With patience, the players will be so much better when they have the bodies to go with it.

It means that playing slick outside footy comes second because we are not winning the inside ball in such a way as to allow it. It is clear that we need to recruit in this area. Macca has said as much. When you watch Hawthorn and the way they move the ball, the length of their kicks, the accuracy, the left footers……the contrast with us is so glaringly obvious. We simply don't have the players at the elite level who are quality ball users.

It also means that young players get knocked over and we lose our resolve. It's because there isn't enough experience in the side to carry the many youngsters on the learning curve. It's because we are at the back end of a long season. It's because we are trying to teach them but some are not capable of improving.

In essence, it is a logical and, hopefully, very rewarding plan.

Criticism of the coach is short sighted and looks at results and playing style rather than how best to accelerate the development of the youngsters at his disposal right now. Criticize him for that if you must, but I am very happy with the path we are taking.

Amen Metal, Amen.

[Ghost Dog]

Sorry I have let the last 6 or so Posters get away with SMORGAN but really guys it is not hard to spell our president's name correctly...SMORGON. I realize he has only been there 15 years.:rolleyes: My pet hate.:mad:
Here is how I remember it.
He's been smorg'n On and On and On......

[Redemption97]

I know he's much loved and he's leading our votes, but I've been disappointed with Ryan Griffen's year. His efforts have flucuated from quarter to quarter let alone week to week. I understand he's getting heavily tagged each week and not having Cooney in the side hurts, but I watch him closely and some of Ryan's flaws 2-3 years ago are still apparent. Only now, it's worse, because we are relying on him more heavily.

Griff is obviously a good player and the least of our concerns, but he hasn't had a good season. His disposal particularly is ordinary and he sprays far too many shots at goal from spots he should nail them from.

There's a noticeable class difference between the game's elite and Griff from where I sit, which disappoints me, as on talent he should be right up there.

TBB I totally agree. Griff drifts in and out of games in bursts of brilliance and mixes that in with some really poor decisions and kicking when under pressure.

Cooney’s plight certainly puts him in the opposition’s gun and even when he breaks the tag on the burst he’s usually under so much pressure from the opposition closing that space that he sprays it. He’d be the first one opposition coaches would be looking to shut down to dismantle us in the midfield, as when he gets it in space (rare this season) he hurts with his ball use as he can be a beautiful kick… Boyd and co not so much.

I’m sure he’ll be all the better for our young midfielders taking that next step next season, helping him out some more and taking some of the focus off him. I just hope we can find Griff some highly skilled and pacey friends with our early picks in this coming draft to help him out and make it a little less predictable about who we’ll go to when Liber & co shovel it out of the contest. He gets a lot of hospital passes!

He is good and occasionally great but we just need some more class players in the side to take all of the attention off him. I think then he has a chance of being the player we want.

[Maddog37]

I would not say weak; these are elite athletes we are talking about. However, I will name a name, ( with the caveat that I absolutely love the guy. )

Brian Lake has been an absolute warrior for us. 2011 was his Annus horribilis. He a was sold out in a filthy way by having his ability to play injured questioned and his name bandied about in a disrespectful way in the media. Had an absolutely dirty year. Now in 2012, not a game goes by that I take for granted he is in our team. I just love him.

I think he is only starting to get a sense of just how valuable he is to these young blokes. People with freakish natural ability sometimes take a while to adapt to a regime that demands they leave everything on the field. The gifted player always leaves a little in reserve for the freakish, so it doesn't come natural for them to walk like a turtle when they've been hares for the past 10 years. Shaun Higgins is another who has or was improving out of sight this season, with those one percenters.

Brian packed up shop a few times on Sunday. Hell I empathize! But he really needs to understand that to my mind, what he is able to teach these young blokes may end up being more important than any other football achievement he manages to get. A four quarter effort is what you demand from someone of his stature and payscale. That being said, I fully understand with the amount of ball going in, how hard it would be to maintain any sort of dignity.

The plodders, the Crosses, the Boyds, the Liam Pickens, the Dale Morrises. These kinds of blokes, not blessed with natural talents of the Judd or Franklin variety, carry the team. That's the kind of spirit Bmac wants to instill. Good on him. Others, take note!

Dale Morris is not a plodder. He is absolutely elite.

[Ghost Dog]

Dale Morris is not a plodder. He is absolutely elite.

Of course he is! But came into the club the hard way. Plodder as in, keeps slogging. affectionately said!

[AndrewP6]

Its all very well to say he is not up and dribble out the "cracking is bad mantra" that seems to have pervaded the cynics on this board, but what alternatives are there?

Probably none now, they had alternatives last September.


. I sincerely believe he has a plan and that this just phase 1. The club would be doing itself a major injustice if it pulled the plug on this early because it can't stomach the results.

Fair enough. I have no idea what his plan is.


This thread is born out of frustration of supporters. I understand that. There is a bigger picture though and if you go back to the facts I presented, then what is being done makes sense.

Agree to disagree then.

[mjp]

The young players are being matched up with champions from other clubs.

This is designed to ACCELERATE their development.

They are being taught about positioning, concentration, tricks of the trade, fitness levels, how to block and negate.

These players are in the engine room and off half back. They are the likes of Smith, Libba and Wallis.

We have about 30 players on the list who have 3 years experience or less.


I am actually not really sure how any of this is different to what every single other club is doing? If you exclude those at the very top of the ladder, I think you will find a similar strategy in place in all clubs...Surround your young players with experienced heads but assign them key roles. The likes of Smith, Libba and Wallis are - after all - surrounded by Boyd, Cross, Griffen and Minson. Look at West Coast surrounding youngsters like Gaff, Shuey and Shepherd with Kerr, Priddis and Rosa. Youngsters like Darling with Lynch and Hams...youngsters like Brennan with Glass and McKenzie...all clubs go through a period of continual regeneration.

I do agree with have a very high number of inexperienced players - but we also have an experienced core who should be able to show the way a lot more effectively than they are. We are young, but it is not as if we are GWS - I would contend we are no more competitive than GWS are right now.



What Macca appears to be saying is that he is sacrificing the chance of winning by going back to the basics. Teach the kids how to play contested footy BEFORE their bodies are ready, so that when they are ready, they can influence a game for longer and with greater impact.

What this means is that when young players go away from the game plan (for they are surely carrying heavy work loads) we are split open. With patience, the players will be so much better when they have the bodies to go with it.


I get all of this - but what about ball movement? The players dont need a strong body to present a target to the kicker...or to at least look to move the ball quickly - or to be brave enough to give to the first option. Clay Smith can play contested footy pretty well - but he cannot kick. Are we going to see some focus on skill development to go with the contested ball mandate?

As for having the 'body' to do it, Lewis Jetta is a skinny weed, Nat Fyfe is a skinny weed...and on it goes. You don't need to have massive arms to win a contested footy or have a gameday impact.

As for being split open - it is happening at a farcical level at the moment and watching St Kilda chip the ball to unmarked team-mates inside forward 50m last weekend was embarrassing. This was not about anything more than effort, concentration and leadership yet somehow I am supposed to accept it because we are building up the bodies of the kids?



It means that playing slick outside footy comes second because we are not winning the inside ball in such a way as to allow it. It is clear that we need to recruit in this area. Macca has said as much. When you watch Hawthorn and the way they move the ball, the length of their kicks, the accuracy, the left footers……the contrast with us is so glaringly obvious. We simply don't have the players at the elite level who are quality ball users.


So - if we win even more inside ball it is going to turn around? Minson was destroying McEvoy at stoppages last week and we were winning the contests with ease...so it was ball use that was holding us back? I don't accept this. We have enough good kicks in our side to move the ball efficiently - what we dont have is anyone prepared to run to receive (by hand or foot) from behind the ball or anyone prepared to come hard at the kicker.

We need to recruit? No - we need to RUN so that the players we have now have someone to kick the ball too.



It also means that young players get knocked over and we lose our resolve. It's because there isn't enough experience in the side to carry the many youngsters on the learning curve. It's because we are at the back end of a long season. It's because we are trying to teach them but some are not capable of improving.


How much experience do you want?

Lake, Gilbee, Williams, Hargrave, Gia, Boyd, Griffen, Cross, Minson...Higgins for most of the year, Picken etc etc.

There is an experienced core there and we cannot keep blaming our capitulations purely on a lack of experience.



In essence, it is a logical and, hopefully, very rewarding plan.

Criticism of the coach is short sighted and looks at results and playing style rather than how best to accelerate the development of the youngsters at his disposal right now. Criticize him for that if you must, but I am very happy with the path we are taking.

I actually disagree that the plan is logical - in a lot of ways I feel we have thrown the baby out with the bath water in terms of trying to remake our side and our style of play. I will agree that the consistency of message we have been hearing all year indicates that we are following a plan...it had better be the right one though because we are certainly not exhibiting any on-field improvement at the moment.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I know he's much loved and he's leading our votes, but I've been disappointed with Ryan Griffen's year. His efforts have flucuated from quarter to quarter let alone week to week. I understand he's getting heavily tagged each week and not having Cooney in the side hurts, but I watch him closely and some of Ryan's flaws 2-3 years ago are still apparent. Only now, it's worse, because we are relying on him more heavily.

Griff is obviously a good player and the least of our concerns, but he hasn't had a good season. His disposal particularly is ordinary and he sprays far too many shots at goal from spots he should nail them from.

There's a noticeable class difference between the game's elite and Griff from where I sit, which disappoints me, as on talent he should be right up there.

I feel very sad even having to respond to this post.
Ryan Griffen is an absolute blue ribbon champion.
Watching him play this year is like watching Black Caviar pulling carts in a coal mine.

We have no other players worth tagging, and other teams don't care if Boyd gets 60 possessions. But as soon as Griffen can even smell a possession he gets jumped on by not just a tagger, but a plethora of taggers.

Ryan Griffen is the least of our problems

[anfo27]

Agree but geez he copes a hiding every week. The only player i have seen block for Griffen (and trust me i've looked for it) is Libba. He needs a chop out where possible and just isn't getting it.

Griff does need a chop out but does he work hard enough to beat tags? I don't think he does.

I remember going to the MCG about 15 or so years ago to watch us take on the Roos. I saw a kid wearing red, white & blue that day do something that i have never seen before or since. He was just starting to get noticed as a possible future star & was starting to get tagged.

On this day his tagger lined up on him on the wing & before the ball was bounced this kid took off sprinting around the square to lose his opponent. His opponent chased but this kid continued to sprint around the square until he nearly ran the entire perimeter of the square & once the ball was bounced he had at least 20m on his man. It wasn't the only time he did that for the day & it goes without saying he had himself a good afternoon.

It was a long time ago so I hope I have remembered it correctly & haven't put too much mayo on it. I'm sure there are other woofers on here who witnessed that.

I was just amazed how hard this kid was prepared to work to ensure he had influence in the game. This kid ended up being in our team of the century.

[FrediKanoute]

How much experience do you want?

Lake, Gilbee, Williams, Hargrave, Gia, Boyd, Griffen, Cross, Minson...Higgins for most of the year, Picken etc etc.

There is an experienced core there and we cannot keep blaming our capitulations purely on a lack of experience.



I agree. The capitulations are not because of the young guys. We have in the current batch of senior players weak leaders. The angst we went through to determine who we should appoint as captain post Johnno was incredible. Its because Lake, Gilbee, Hargrave, Gia, Boyd, Cross, Morris - the senior guys in the team were just not capable of leading in the way Wally, Hawk, Wynd, Granty and Johnno were able to lead the team (apologies to Westy and Darcy here). They just aren't inspirational and are unable to set an example for the younger guys - Cooney, Griffin, Higgins to follow.

This malaise we are in has a lot to do with poor leadership. I am not saying for one instance that these guys are poor players, because they aren't, but if you held them up against Lenny Hayes; Luke Hodge; Stuey Maxwell; Bartel etc there is no comparison in leadership skills.

[Maddog37]

Our spirit appears broken at the moment.

[bornadog]

Our spirit appears broken at the moment.

Whose fault is that?

[LostDoggy]

Think we've all had a pretty good say on this thread and maybe we're starting to go round in circles.

[Dry Rot]

I agree. The capitulations are not because of the young guys. We have in the current batch of senior players weak leaders. The angst we went through to determine who we should appoint as captain post Johnno was incredible. Its because Lake, Gilbee, Hargrave, Gia, Boyd, Cross, Morris - the senior guys in the team were just not capable of leading in the way Wally, Hawk, Wynd, Granty and Johnno were able to lead the team (apologies to Westy and Darcy here). They just aren't inspirational and are unable to set an example for the younger guys - Cooney, Griffin, Higgins to follow.

This malaise we are in has a lot to do with poor leadership. I am not saying for one instance that these guys are poor players, because they aren't, but if you held them up against Lenny Hayes; Luke Hodge; Stuey Maxwell; Bartel etc there is no comparison in leadership skills.

Saw a bit of the Swan's Paul Kelly up here at the SCG.

Inspirational player and captain. Saw so many games when the Swans were wilting and then Kelly stood up and made a statement and turned the game around.

Once they were well down against a North side (Carey et al) trying to make Sydney its second home, and Kelly just stood up, turned the game around and won the game in the dying minutes.

We need to need to draft a few of these, even if they aren't the tallest, quickest or most skilful.

And I would love to have a Hodge or two at the Dogs.

[jeemak]

Saw a bit of the Swan's Paul Kelly up here at the SCG.

Inspirational player and captain. Saw so many games when the Swans were wilting and then Kelly stood up and made a statement and turned the game around.

Once they were well down against a North side (Carey et al) trying to make Sydney its second home, and Kelly just stood up, turned the game around and won the game in the dying minutes.

We need to need to draft a few of these, even if they aren't the tallest, quickest or most skilful.

And I would love to have a Hodge or two at the Dogs.

Agree that it would be nice to find a player like Paul Kelly in the coming drafts while we're struggling at the bottom of the ladder. But, players like him are hard to find. Only ever saw him a few times live.

As for Luke Hodge. I don't think many players in the league have received the free pass from criticism he has received in the media over recent years. He is an excellent and courageous player, though we'd be just as well served by finding a Brent Harvey (irrespective of his tendency towards diving a little while ago), a Scott Pendlebury, a Steve Johnson or any other elite player you could think of in years gone by.

We have one game breaker in the making in Dahlhaus, and a ready made one in Griffen, though all good players need some support and play better when there are players as equally capable around them. With that in mind we just need to find elite and committed talent and the rest will take care of itself.

[Topdog]

We have no game breakers in our team because our team are not allowed to break forward

[Dry Rot]

Agree that it would be nice to find a player like Paul Kelly in the coming drafts while we're struggling at the bottom of the ladder. But, players like him are hard to find. Only ever saw him a few times live.

As for Luke Hodge. I don't think many players in the league have received the free pass from criticism he has received in the media over recent years. He is an excellent and courageous player, though we'd be just as well served by finding a Brent Harvey (irrespective of his tendency towards diving a little while ago), a Scott Pendlebury, a Steve Johnson or any other elite player you could think of in years gone by.

We have one game breaker in the making in Dahlhaus, and a ready made one in Griffen, though all good players need some support and play better when there are players as equally capable around them. With that in mind we just need to find elite and committed talent and the rest will take care of itself.

The thing about Hodge (and Kelly before him) is that he usually delivers in big games eg the 2008 GF.

Sorry, Griff is not in this class. How many games when we're being hammered, has Griff said enough, I'm going to turn this around?

[Dry Rot]

Only ever saw him a few times live.



That game v North that Kelly played was amazing.

Swans were well behind. He basically willed the Swans home. And they won on the bell. Kelly IIRC kicked that last two or three winning goals.

Probably the most exciting finish to a game I've seen live, and crapped on that close win we had v North in the mid last decade. You Melbourne folk bag SCG crowds and their enthusiasm - that day it was a capacity crowd and the Swans crowd just went off as Kelly pulled off the impossible.

The only like performance I've seen live was Archer in Norths v Saints @ SCG and Kerr at Homebush Swans v WCE in 2007.

Both just stood up when they were needed, and both were BOG.

Sorry, but our senior/good players just don't do this most of the time NB in finals.

[The Underdog]

You Melbourne folk bag SCG crowds and their enthusiasm

That's a fairly broad generalisation.

[Topdog]

The thing about Hodge (and Kelly before him) is that he usually delivers in big games eg the 2008 GF.

Sorry, Griff is not in this class. How many games when we're being hammered, has Griff said enough, I'm going to turn this around?

Griff could not have performed any better than he has in finals. Consistently been our best player and usually in the top 3 on the ground.

[jeemak]

The thing about Hodge (and Kelly before him) is that he usually delivers in big games eg the 2008 GF.

Sorry, Griff is not in this class. How many games when we're being hammered, has Griff said enough, I'm going to turn this around?

This is absolute tripe. Griffen is the rare player that actually lifts for finals. I'd back his big game level against just about anyone in the league.

[bornadog]

This is absolute tripe. Griffen is the rare player that actually lifts for finals. I'd back his big game level against just about anyone in the league.

I second that.

[KT31]

This is absolute tripe. Griffen is the rare player that actually lifts for finals. I'd back his big game level against just about anyone in the league.

^^^
Agree

[G-Mo77]

This is absolute tripe. Griffen is the rare player that actually lifts for finals. I'd back his big game level against just about anyone in the league.

Yeah, I'd somewhat agree. Anyone in the league is very debatable though. His disposal still makes me cringe at times as do his shots on goal. Escapes a lot of criticism in that regard.

[Ozza]

I the 9 finals of the 2008-2010 era - I'm pretty sure Griffen was amongst our best players (often our clear best) in about 8 out of 9.

[whythelongface]

Griff could not have performed any better than he has in finals. Consistently been our best player and usually in the top 3 on the ground.

Absolutely agree. To suggest that he doesn't deliver when counted is way off the mark.

Right now he doesn't appear to be at the top of his game, however this is due to the fact that he is getting heavily tagged each game as he is clearly (if not our only) our most damaging player and the opposition are clearly trying to nullify his influence on the game. He desperately needs an offsider who has his ability to turn the game so that he is isn't on his lonesome.

[Mofra]

I the 9 finals of the 2008-2010 era - I'm pretty sure Griffen was amongst our best players (often our clear best) in about 8 out of 9.
He was possibly BOG on one leg against the Swans when we lost Cooney

[Greystache]

This is absolute tripe. Griffen is the rare player that actually lifts for finals. I'd back his big game level against just about anyone in the league.

Agreed. If anything Griffen tends to struggle against middle of the road teams, if a player has to have a weakness I'm more than comfortable with it being that!

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Agreed. If anything Griffen tends to struggle against middle of the road teams, if a player has to have a weakness I'm more than comfortable with it being that!

It should be stated that Griffen doesn't have the depth of midfield talent around him like a Collingwood, Geelong or Hawthorn. Can you imagine how well he would fit into these more talented sides. Our weekly expectations on Griffen and Boyd are huge made more so now with the loss of both Cooney and Cross.

[Dry Rot]

I think you guys have misunderstood me. Griff is a very good player and yes he has performed well in finals.

But that's different to players who can make a statement and really turn a game around. Some of these had sublime skills like Hird and some just had something else like Kelly, Hodge and even Archer earlier in his career.

IMO we have lacked players like this.

Furthermore, for years we haven't the flag when one of ours get nailed. IMO, we have lacked various forms of toughness, physical and mental, this century. IIRC, teams didn't like playing us in the late nineties.

[LostDoggy]

Think we've all had a pretty good say on this thread and maybe we're starting to go round in circles.

http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/kmAyn5O-u5Y/mqdefault.jpg

[bornadog]

http://i4.ytimg.com/vi/kmAyn5O-u5Y/mqdefault.jpg

You wish:D:D