Starting to get worried about our coach

[Topdog]

I know it's a bit early for this but I am really worrying about our coach. Our game style is flat out awful to watch and I hope and pray what he says to the media each week is nothing at all like what he says to the players after the game. Contested footy is important but it is not the only part of this great game we call Australian Rules.

[anfo27]

The only thing I'm worried about is if the club caves in to media, members & sponsor pressure & sacks Macca before giving him the time he needs to turn this around. The board has made a decision & they need to stay strong & back Macca to the end.

I'm a Macca fan & believe in the long run he will turn this playing group around.

[GVGjr]

He's making errors no doubt.
- The selection table hasn't been kind to him.
- Tried the 3 ruckman experiment for too long. Perhaps he should have never tried it.
- Stubborn focus on contested ball.
- Skill level across the park is poor and goal kicking conversions have hurt us.

He's got a few things right but the whole nurturing and development theme does have a short shelf life.

[Desipura]

Oh no, not again!

[Eastdog]

Need to give Macca a chance to develop the team. I don't think it would be any better changing the coach as now it's the quality of players we have.

[mjp]

I aren't all that worried, but I didn't like the whole 'contested ball cost us the game' after last night.

Surely our complete inability to move the ball (and therefore kick a goal) cost us the game? Our ball movement is simply god-awful...why do we have to play this way?

[LostDoggy]

I aren't all that worried, but I didn't like the whole 'contested ball cost us the game' after last night.

Surely our complete inability to move the ball (and therefore kick a goal) cost us the game? Our ball movement is simply god-awful...why do we have to play this way?

Sorry Mike didn't have us finishing higher?

[mjp]

Sorry Mike didn't have us finishing higher?

Way, way higher.

With the quality of our midfield, we should have won a lot more games. The complete lack of performance/development/call it what you will by Jones and Grant has cost us big time.

It is out of ourselves and the Blues for most disappointing side of the year. Daylight is 3rd.

[AndrewP6]

Oh goody, a thread dedicated to the topic! :D

[Ghost Dog]

Oh goody, a thread dedicated to the topic! :D

Robust questioning of the coach welcomed but give the guy a fair hearing.

[AndrewP6]

Robust questioning of the coach welcomed but give the guy a fair hearing.

I'm not sure I can add anything I haven't already said. I might just lurk on this one.

[Rance Fan]

This time next year bring out the knives if nothing has improved.
Give him sometime :P

[Desipura]

Sorry Mike didn't have us finishing higher?

Did you pull your tongue to people at school and sing "na na na na na" then ran for your life?:rolleyes:

[LostDoggy]

Did you pull your tongue to people at school and sing "na na na na na" then ran for your life?:rolleyes:

?
You're obsessed.

[Ghost Dog]

I worry about the coach. I want him to do some things differently. That doesn't mean I want him fired. Doesn't mean he is incompetent. I Want him to learn, like players have to learn.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I think he's maintained a pretty even approach. I've not enjoyed a lot of our football but he's taken a development approach, and it was needed. We need to remember how poor we were last year. Sure, we didn't have a patch perhaps as bad as the last 5 weeks, but we were pretty woeful for a lot of the year.

Playing the three ruck men has been evidence of the development approach, and I've been supportive of this. There is only so many years we could have Roughie and Cordy on the list without playing them. After the North Melbourne game it seemed to be coming together, but we've hit some rough waters since.

I don't have any problem with his contest out approach. Even under Eade in his best years we could't produce the intensity required for long enough, and often over relied on our offensive ability. Whilst a player like Shermans value should be in his run and carry, I have no problem with Macca taking a hard line in demanding an improved defensive contribution etc. Sure as a team we've struggled to get the balance right between attacking and defending, but surely the lack of experienced forwards (post-Hall) is a massive factor in this. And all of us would agree that for us to be good we need to establish if Jones, Grant, Cordy and Roughie are part of the future.

The problem, and its an inherited one is the list. We just have too many unestablished players and too many fringe/depth players who have yet to distinguish themselves.

[Bulldog Joe]

I certainly have concerns.

We hear that he is a great teacher, but we are not seeing much evidence. He has also not been able/willing to explain what the supporters should expect as signs that we can be competitive and when that may be.

It is going to be very difficult to market the club if we don't see something positive soon.

[MrMahatma]

Too early to tell I reckon. Personally thought this year would be painful, but we need to see improvement from individuals in order to have faith moving forward. Jones, Grant and Roughead have been disappointments this year. Dahl and Wallis good. What happens with the likes of Tutt, Pearce, Howard et al over the next 12 months should be a barometer for Macca. He's preaching about teaching so we need to see some results.

We certainly can't afford another year like this next year.

[Ghost Dog]

I remember when I first joined this site there were lots of threads bemoaning our lack of guts, fight, spirit. Seem to recall Chops in particular being quite vocal about this. So can't fault McCartney in this regard. We look far less likely to be intimidated.

[Twodogs]

I'm not a fan.

I was prepared to give him a chance but we havent improved this season. In fact we've gone backwards in many key areas. The player's have no confidence, their skills have deteriorated, he either isnt articulating the game plan or there just isnt one and he stubbornly sticks to ideas that just arent working for far too long.

He may be a great assistant, I think that's beyond dispute but to my eye he is clearly out of his depth as a senior coach. Last night he was sucker punched and outcoached by Brett Ratten coaching what was already an ordinary Carlton team even before it lost half a dozen of it's best players.

[mjp]

I remember when I first joined this site there were lots of threads bemoaning our lack of guts, fight, spirit. Seem to recall Chops in particular being quite vocal about this. So can't fault McCartney in this regard. We look far less likely to be intimidated.

True. Unfortunately we also look far less likely to score.

Some goals would be nice to give us some hope...

[AndrewP6]

I remember when I first joined this site there were lots of threads bemoaning our lack of guts, fight, spirit. Seem to recall Chops in particular being quite vocal about this. So can't fault McCartney in this regard. We look far less likely to be intimidated.

You're kidding aren't you?? We are, along with GC and GWS, the AFL easybeats. We've rolled over several times this season without a whimper.

[Mantis]

He may be a great assistant, I think that's beyond dispute but to my eye he is clearly out of his depth as a senior coach. Last night he was sucker punched and outcoached by Brett Ratten coaching what was already an ordinary Carlton team even before it lost half a dozen of it's best players.

Quite a few Geelong players are of the same view and struggled to see how MaCartney would make the transition as they didn't think he would be suited to the top job.

[SonofScray]

I remember when I first joined this site there were lots of threads bemoaning our lack of guts, fight, spirit. Seem to recall Chops in particular being quite vocal about this. So can't fault McCartney in this regard. We look far less likely to be intimidated.

On occasions yes, but not as a standard and certainly not as promised by Mac. It is my biggest concern when going in to bat for Mac, that the very standard he said he would set which does't rely a great deal on skill just hasn't come to fruition.

That being said, our will as a Club isn't exactly like iron these days so I'm going to give him time to install it.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Quite a few Geelong players are of the same view and struggled to see how MaCartney would make the transition as they didn't think he would be suited to the top job.

These comments are quite unhelpful in the scheme of things. I would rather support the judgement of Chris Grant and Simon Garlick who would have been the key football people involved in BMcC's appointment.

[AndrewP6]

These comments are quite unhelpful in the scheme of things. I would rather support the judgement of Chris Grant and Simon Garlick who would have been the key football people involved in BMcC's appointment.

Rather than the judgment of players who worked with him for some time prior?

[EasternWest]

I aren't all that worried, but I didn't like the whole 'contested ball cost us the game' after last night.

Surely our complete inability to move the ball (and therefore kick a goal) cost us the game? Our ball movement is simply god-awful...why do we have to play this way?

As someone involved in a professional coaching capacity, what do you think needs to happen for us to improve Mike? I mean, aside from your point above what steps need to be taken to make it happen?

[Ghost Dog]

You're kidding aren't you?? We are, along with GC and GWS, the AFL easybeats. We've rolled over several times this season without a whimper.

How did you feel we went about it at the North Game?
I know you were probably there.

[AndrewP6]

How did you feel we went about it at the North Game?
I know you were probably there.

Very good win.

[Topdog]

How did you feel we went about it at the North Game?
I know you were probably there.

So we are happy with 1 good performance for the season?

I'm a long way from saying "sack the coach" but I've got real concerns and it staggers me that all we hear from him is contested ball. Sounds like a broken record and I fear the players will get the same treatment.

What amazes me is no criticism from the media. I actually heard Boyd's kicking heavily criticised for the first time on radio last week so perhaps we are losing our media darlings tag

[Ghost Dog]

Very good win.

I know the Brisbane loss was awful. We should have won on Saturday too. But there are no huge outs that tell us we can't reproduce what we brought to the table on that day.

[Ghost Dog]

Quite a few Geelong players are of the same view and struggled to see how MaCartney would make the transition as they didn't think he would be suited to the top job.

Which Geelong players and when?

[Ghost Dog]

So we are happy with 1 good performance for the season?

I'm a long way from saying "sack the coach" but I've got real concerns and it staggers me that all we hear from him is contested ball. Sounds like a broken record and I fear the players will get the same treatment.

What amazes me is no criticism from the media. I actually heard Boyd's kicking heavily criticised for the first time on radio last week so perhaps we are losing our media darlings tag

I think it's worse than that. Melbourne are in the news all the time, even when they are losing. We are seen as being irrelevant and so nobody really cares. I agree that the time has come to really question some of the puzzling decisions the coach is making.
Also think he has done some things in his first year that warrant merit.
1. Dragging Grant into the gym
2. Move forward for Tom Williams
3. Getting scoring opportunities

Problems
1. Bizarre sub choices
2. Match ups that even a layman like myself can see the folly of ( Betts on Muprhy )
3. While I love Clay Smith's contested ball, his foot is frightening. Hope we don't come to regret that pick.
4. Some key leaders ( Griffen, Gia ) seem to have dropped off. Have they lost faith?

No, not happy with one good performance but I can't see why that can't be reproduced. We have to make a contest. People won't pay to see a team they know is going to capitulate.

My guess is we need a Gary Ayers or Dean Laidley to assist? Someone who has a good game day record and understanding of strategy. Bmac seems like a great development person but perhaps a little slow at times to adapt to different coaching conditions.

[AndrewP6]

I know the Brisbane loss was awful. We should have won on Saturday too. But there are no huge outs that tell us we can't reproduce what we brought to the table on that day.

The last month or so is what tells me just that.

[Ghost Dog]

The last month or so is what tells me just that.

You seem pretty down at the moment Andrew. Hope you are ok otherwise.
I agree, where we are at is not great. The game day lack of response to obvious mis-matches is the biggest worry. But I don't think it's quite as bad many on here paint the picture. A month is not a long time in footy, and but for three set shots, we would be singing a different tune.

[LostDoggy]

I think it's worse than that. Melbourne are in the news all the time, even when they are losing. We are seen as being irrelevant and so nobody really cares. I agree that the time has come to really question some of the puzzling decisions the coach is making.
Also think he has done some things in his first year that warrant merit.
1. Dragging Grant into the gym
2. Move forward for Tom Williams
3. Getting scoring opportunities

Problems
1. Bizarre sub choices
2. Match ups that even a layman like myself can see the folly of ( Betts on Muprhy )
3. While I love Clay Smith's contested ball, his foot is frightening. Hope we don't come to regret that pick.
4. Some key leaders ( Griffen, Gia ) seem to have dropped off. Have they lost faith?

No, not happy with one good performance but I can't see why that can't be reproduced. We have to make a contest. People won't pay to see a team they know is going to capitulate.

My guess is we need a Gary Ayers or Dean Laidley to assist? Someone who has a good game day record and understanding of strategy. Bmac seems like a great development person but perhaps a little slow at times to adapt to different coaching conditions.

Developmentally he's doing beautifully - Grant, Williams, Higgins, Wallis, Howard (aware many disagree on this one) all seem to have leaped ahead under bmac.

Game day he needs support. Can we afford Roos?

[The Pie Man]

How did you feel we went about it at the North Game?
I know you were probably there.

I think you need to put the North win in perspective. I recall hearing that loss and the belting they copped from Hawthorn are their two most disappointing performances this season.

We won by 3 goals.

I don't say that to needlessly add to any negativity

[chef]

He may be a great assistant, I think that's beyond dispute but to my eye he is clearly out of his depth as a senior coach. Last night he was sucker punched and outcoached by Brett Ratten coaching what was already an ordinary Carlton team even before it lost half a dozen of it's best players.

Could have been a great number 2 for Leon maybe(I wanted Cameron to get the job).

But happy to give him the benefit of the doubt until at least the end of next season, if we are still playing clueless footy by then then I will be worried.

[chef]

How did you feel we went about it at the North Game?
I know you were probably there.

We absolutely smashed them yet only won by a couple of goals. I was worried then that we are to focused on winning the contested ball and not what to do with it once we have it.

[The Underdog]

Developmentally he's doing beautifully - Grant, Williams, Higgins, Wallis, Howard (aware many disagree on this one) all seem to have leaped ahead under bmac.


Did you forget one of these :rolleyes: ?

Grant has gone nowhere apart from the VFL and the gym, Williams has been injured and had 2 ok games forward, Higgins has certainly not been better than any other year and Howard has been ok a couple of times and frankly quite bad on other occasions. Not to mention Jones stagnating.

Frankly I'm sick of hearing about contested footy and what a great teacher McCartney is, especially when the former seems to be getting us nowhere and the latter doesn't seem to be especially evident. I'm more than willing to give him another pre-season to move this forward but if he (and the coaching squad) don't improve, we are going to be finishing below GC and GWS pretty soon.

[LostDoggy]

We need to refer to McCartney by his real title. It's not coach it's 'Our taskmaster'. Just ask the cheersquad.

[Mofra]

We absolutely smashed them yet only won by a couple of goals. I was worried then that we are to focused on winning the contested ball and not what to do with it once we have it.
Perhaps, just maybe, B-Mac has a plan that stretches beyond 1 year?

He has constantly said you build a club from the inside out - to me, he seems to be building a contested football culture before moving onto other problems. I wouldn't be surprised to see the list cut fairly heavily at the end of the year, and with a surprise or two thrown in for measure.

He's not without fault, but the way we start season 2013 will be the biggest clue.

[KT31]

We need to refer to McCartney by his real title. It's not coach it's 'Our taskmaster'. Just ask the cheersquad.

To Coach or about B.Mac ?:D

[LostDoggy]

To Coach or about B.Mac ?:D

It's a sign they have like the Rhode - our mastermind one.

[Sockeye Salmon]

The only thing I'm not sure about is whether to call him Peter Hart or Royce Rhode

A change mid game would be nice, especially when we are getting touched up. Anything will do.

[Maddog37]

Way, way higher.

With the quality of our midfield, we should have won a lot more games. The complete lack of performance/development/call it what you will by Jones and Grant has cost us big time.

It is out of ourselves and the Blues for most disappointing side of the year. Daylight is 3rd.

Gold Coast and Melbourne have not really set the world on fire.

[Maddog37]

All this talk of coaching issues really needs to be taken with a grain of salt as it is simply too early to tell.

If we are still playing this way at the same time next year then make changes but surely he needs more time.

[LostDoggy]

I'm confused... what threads am I to pay attention to? The ones that scream how terrible our list is, or the ones screaming to sack the coach. Give the man time to build his list.

[chef]

Perhaps, just maybe, B-Mac has a plan that stretches beyond 1 year?

You would hope so.

[DragzLS1]

We need to refer to McCartney by his real title. It's not coach it's 'Our taskmaster'. Just ask the cheersquad.

I wouldnt ask the cheer squad anything they need to come up with a new chant that actually sounds good!

Bulldogs *clap clap clap*

seriously, is that all we have...

Lets give the coach time to build his list and see what happens.. If it was up to the cheersquad and fans the coach would get sacked every year we didnt make top 4, and Lake wouldve been traded out last year for having a shocking year.. God im glad we didnt :s

Think the coach will make some significant changes at the end of the year. Lets jsut wait and see :)

[bornadog]

I'm confused... what threads am I to pay attention to? The ones that scream how terrible our list is, or the ones screaming to sack the coach. Give the man time to build his list.

I don't believe anyone wants the coach sacked at this early stage. The worrying things that most are concerned about are the selections each week and game plans.

[The Pie Man]

Quite a few Geelong players are of the same view and struggled to see how MaCartney would make the transition as they didn't think he would be suited to the top job.

I take it this is something you've heard on the grapevine (can't imagine former players speaking like that of a current senior coach in the media)

It sounds right though - it's certainly my opinion based on how we're playing (not just results)

Really undecided as to how he's handled Grant to date - but his return on Saturday was promising. If you can call that a positive, they're the kind of things that maybe he's suited to; helping certain players individually, but lacks the bigger picture structurally.

In short, a good assistant.

[anfo27]

I don't believe anyone wants the coach sacked at this early stage. The worrying things that most are concerned about are the selections each week and game plans.

I did read in the game day thread that 2 posters asked for macca to be sacked.

[G-Mo77]

I did read in the game day thread that 2 posters asked for macca to be sacked.

Sad isn't it.

Honorable losses to Collingwood and Geelong and the North win raised unrealistic expectations, including my own. Some posters thought we'd be contending for finals before the season started. Again very unrealsitc after 9 very overrated wins the year before. Those are the ones that are venting a lot about it which is understandable and I do have concerns of my own that match their concerns.

Macca needs more than 3/4 of a season to prove what he can do.

[Mantis]

Sad isn't it.

Honorable losses to Collingwood and Geelong and the North win raised unrealistic expectations, including my own. Some posters thought we'd be contending for finals before the season started. Again very unrealsitc after 9 very overrated wins the year before. Those are the ones that are venting a lot about it which is understandable and I do have concerns of my own that match their concerns.

Macca needs more than 3/4 of a season to prove what he can do.

I had us finishing around 14th so I'm not surprised by the W/L common.

What is concerning is the lack of progress we are making, but perhaps as you suggest it's going to take some time, but even some indicators that we are treading on the right path would be nice.

[G-Mo77]

I had us finishing around 14th so I'm not surprised by the W/L common.

What is concerning is the lack of progress we are making, but perhaps as you suggest it's going to take some time, but even some indicators that we are treading on the right path would be nice.

I had us down for 14th as well.

No we haven't progressed at all. I go back to those Collingwood and Geelong games and expected to win those as the season went on and the players not only developed but gelled a little more. Both those games should have been great learning experiences for everyone involved. Saturday against a lesser opponent it was the same story.

We're back a hell of a lot further than I than I thought and my expectations were very low. I'm honestly not expecting much improvement at all next year either.

[Dry Rot]

We're back a hell of a lot further than I than I thought and my expectations were very low. I'm honestly not expecting much improvement at all next year either.

Agreed. And there's a good chance we'll get worse in 2013 and 2014 before improving in 2015. IMO we'll cop a wooden spoon.

Re judging Macca now, our woeful list really clouds the situation.

[Bulldog4life]

Quite a few Geelong players are of the same view and struggled to see how MaCartney would make the transition as they didn't think he would be suited to the top job.

Mantis you always like to have posters back up their statements but you are not doing that yourself.You have made a sweeping statement and Ghost Dog has asked you which players and I am joining him. Please name them.

[Maddog37]

On the other hand players like Ling, Harley and Mooney have all stated publicly he will be a very good senior coach. Also Bomber and other Essendon staff have suggested the same.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Before the season started I had us pencilled in 13th/14th. maybe only above Brisbane and the 2 new teams.

This was based on our playing list for the following reasons.

1. The guts torn out of it by losing Harbrow, Ward and Cooney.
There goes a lot of pace and sparkle and inspiration and almost wipes out that age bracket in 3 fell swoops.

2. No reliable forward. Zero. We have to scrape a forward line together and hope Gia and Higgins can somehow scratch a few goals together. With long bombs landing on their heads whilst surrounded by tall defenders.

3. Our midfield may be tough but it's slow and can't kick with the precision required to hit a leading forward. I was just appalled when we drafted Clay Smith. ( of course I'll embrace him now that he's a Bulldog but it just seemed a crazy decision)

The only thing Macca had any control over out of this was drafting Smith, which I disagreed with.
But the stage was already set for a shocking season due to years of bad list management.

I'm not gonna bag Macca as a coach yet, but if he drafts more 'in and under' types who 'crack in', I will start cracking it.

[Mantis]

Mantis you always like to have posters back up their statements but you are not doing that yourself.You have made a sweeping statement and Ghost Dog has asked you which players and I am joining him. Please name them.

I won't be naming them.

I would hope that I would have enough credibility around here to have you think that I'm not making this up... but please yourself.

[Remi Moses]

This thread just highlights everything that's wrong with social media.
Sack the coach, sack the cheer squad sack this sack that!
Honestly never heard such knee jerk rubbish!!
This site is resembling Big Footy more and more each day!:eek:
Point 1. The Geelong players and Bomber Thompson fully endorsed his appointment.
James Hird also gave McCartney a glowing endorsement.
Point 2. The list is on a downward spiral due to poor recruiting in the 23-27 age group.
Peter Rohde had a better list of players than McCartney does.
Might only get worse before it gets better( this board will be in full meltdown by then!)
I'd be worried if we haven't improved in 2 years time with some decent draft picks and a balanced list.

[LostDoggy]

I did read in the game day thread that 2 posters asked for macca to be sacked.
You're known for exaggeration but after a quick look I saw one by a rookie poster who isn't a regular.
Aren't you the same person that said we had more embarrassing losses last year?

[Remi Moses]

Quite a few Geelong players are of the same view and struggled to see how MaCartney would make the transition as they didn't think he would be suited to the top job.

Who? Pretty easy to make a sweeping statement on the net!
Didn't utter a word in the first half of the season!

[mjp]

I don't want to sack the coach - but I do want to see us start scoring occasionally...and I don't means snaps over the shoulder by Dalhaus - I mean multi-phase ball movement resulting in a shot on goal.

I get what you are saying RM - but goodness...our average losing margin in 2 goals worse than Port's and they have been under an absolute blow-torch with the SA papers calling for the head of Matty Primus. Shouldn't we be seeing some signs of improvement/progression by now?

[LostDoggy]

Saw a Bulldogs person tweet Robbo last night requesting that BMac be put under the blowtorch. Disappointing stuff and not what we expect from our members.

I'm willing to give the coach more time to put his stamp on the list before calling for his head. Did we do a season prediction thread this year? Would be interesting to pull it out and see what we all thought would happen. I'm pretty sure I said 6 wins or thereabouts.

The list balance is ordinary folks and last year there were definite signs of where we were heading. We are expecting too much of young players and some older players just can't do what they once could. For mine, that is is the reality and if anyone thinks Eade or Leigh Matthews or anybody else could extract more goals from our forward line then I think they need a reality check.

We are TERRIBLE to watch no doubt, but this is not just the direct result of a guy who has been in charge for 3/4 of a season but moreso the result of bad recruiting, bad luck with recruiting and list inbalance masked by some success and a really good FF kicking goals from limited opportunites.

This is all just my opinion and I share the pain but let's try and look at the wider picture.

[LostDoggy]

How long do we as supporters have to sit here and take the crap that is dished out every year. All we hear about is "oh we tried hard" or "we are developing". Im sorry but we have been developing since 1954.

I for one have had enough of the rubbish that is dished out week after week, year after year. The clubs board, coaches and recruiters need to get fairdinkum and start to use their brains just a little more.

I am sick of second rate, over the hill coaches or coaches that have no credentials at all. Malthouse is available, he started at the dogs lets get him to finish here on a bang with a flag or two, he knows how to build a list, he knows what to do to win a flag and he has actually played AFL football at the elite level.

No more apathy from me, no more rebuilding rubbish it is time to deliver.

[anfo27]

You're known for exaggeration but after a quick look I saw one by a rookie poster who isn't a regular.
Aren't you the same person that said we had more embarrassing losses last year?

Why are you asking a question you know the answer to & one I have already answered?

[LostDoggy]

Why are you asking a question you know the answer to & one I have already answered?
You've made 2 statements today that are straight out wrong.

[The Pie Man]

Saw a Bulldogs person tweet Robbo last night requesting that BMac be put under the blowtorch. Disappointing stuff and not what we expect from our members.

I did likewise about a month ago - for a variety of reasons.

I'm sick of us seeming irrelevant in the media - Sheahan even admitted there was an 'indifference' to us last week, and Macca seems to be getting a free ride because of it. We've earned far more heat than we've been put under this season, and a bit of what I'll call 'positive' pressure can be good for a group.

I don't feel bad for doing it (and it didn't have the desired effect anyway, we were left alone.....again......:()

[LostDoggy]

I did likewise about a month ago - for a variety of reasons.

I'm sick of us seeming irrelevant in the media - Sheahan even admitted there was an 'indifference' to us last week, and Macca seems to be getting a free ride because of it. We've earned far more heat than we've been put under this season, and a bit of what I'll call 'positive' pressure can be good for a group.

I don't feel bad for doing it (and it didn't have the desired effect anyway, we were left alone.....again......:()

Understand where you're coming from but I guess I just worry about the situation becoming even worse for a rookie coach (although media scrutiny is part of the environment). I think the media have just accepted this year that we're not going to do well and so it's not really a surprise that needs to be highlighted.

The only thing I would like to see happen is a bit more media focus on why we cannot move the ball well (lack of speed and lack of foot skills) and why we can't score easily (bombs into inexperienced and or small forwards).

We all react differently to situations and act accordingly as a result.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I think the heat is on Melbourne because they've been accumulating top picks for years and seemed ready to surge. A lot of 'experts' had them top 8 this year.

I honestly think that the whole footy world, aside from some optimistically deluded bulldog supporters, saw this coming. We played in 3 prelim's and now we're on the slide. We've got a very unbalanced and weak list.

Melbourne have just been appalling for years.

[LostDoggy]

I think the heat is on Melbourne because they've been accumulating top picks for years and seemed ready to surge. A lot of 'experts' had them top 8 this year.

I honestly think that the whole footy world, aside from some optimistically deluded bulldog supporters, saw this coming. We played in 3 prelim's and now we're on the slide. We've got a very unbalanced and weak list.

Melbourne have just been appalling for years.

I think that's what I've been trying to say too!

[LostDoggy]

I think the heat is on Melbourne because they've been accumulating top picks for years and seemed ready to surge. A lot of 'experts' had them top 8 this year.

I honestly think that the whole footy world, aside from some optimistically deluded bulldog supporters, saw this coming. We played in 3 prelim's and now we're on the slide. We've got a very unbalanced and weak list.

Melbourne have just been appalling for years.

So what is Hawthorns excuse then, dont believe they have had a slide period since 2008, they have been there for some time....Sorry dont buy that rubbish anymore, there is no place for apathy.

[Dancin' Douggy]

So what is Hawthorns excuse then, dont believe they have had a slide period since 2008, they have been there for some time....Sorry dont buy that rubbish anymore, there is no place for apathy.

Ahem? 2008 was only 4 years ago!?!

And I'm only trying to figure out why the Media isn't putting the blowtorch on us.

[LostDoggy]

Ahem? 2008 was only 4 years ago!?!

And I'm only trying to figure out why the Media isn't putting the blowtorch on us.

Yeah but they started to rebuild in what 2005, let see then that is 7 years up and about, we had 3 good years, no flag and no chance, very poor recruiting I think.

[LostDoggy]

So what is Hawthorns excuse then, dont believe they have had a slide period since 2008, they have been there for some time....Sorry dont buy that rubbish anymore, there is no place for apathy.

Put simply, they have class in many positions and we don't.

[Greystache]

So what is Hawthorns excuse then, dont believe they have had a slide period since 2008, they have been there for some time....Sorry dont buy that rubbish anymore, there is no place for apathy.

Hawthorn has won 1 final since 2008, if you think that's a good record you're easily pleased.

[LostDoggy]

Hawthorn has won 1 final since 2008, if you think that's a good record you're easily pleased.

One more then the Bulldogs, so yes it is a good record. Just a reminder our last one was 1954 folks.

[Greystache]

One more then the Bulldogs, so yes it is a good record.

Final wins since 2008

Hawthorn- 1
Western Bulldogs- 2

[LostDoggy]

If we sack the coach after 3/4 of a season what kind of club will we become, we will be on a fast track to no longer existing. We have had our up period, we didn't make the most of it and our list is guttered, its time to rebuild, guess what? it takes time. We need to stick fast with the coach and if we are still not improving after 2-3 years then yes in all right we would look to move him on, sacking him at this stage is just reactionary and stupid.

Suck it up people, we are in for a tough period.

[bulldogsman]

I'm a little concerned, but I'm willing to be patient. I'll wait till next year to make a proper judgement. Mac especially needs to encourage players to move the ball with more risk. Less focus on the inside and more on the outside.

[LostDoggy]

Final wins since 2008

Hawthorn- 1
Western Bulldogs- 2

Again Flags

Hawthorn 1
Bulldogs 0

Finals dont count, flags do. It is the fact that the successful clubs expect wins and flags, the smaller clubs, like the Dogs just say well we tried hard...What I am saying is that we as supporters need to change our mind set and start to demand more not sit back and say "oh well we nearly got there"...Second best is no good anymore, nearly there does not rate.

I just want supporter to say enough is enough and put some heat back into the club, make them want it and let them know that we as a membership will no longer sit back and watch sub-standard performance from what are meant to be the elite players of their ilk.

[LostDoggy]

I'm a little concerned, but I'm willing to be patient. I'll wait till next year to make a proper judgement. Mac especially needs to encourage players to move the ball with more risk.

Yep the safe option is certainly not getting us anywhere so a few risks can't hurt. Not like we're not getting thumped as it is!

If we're trying to learn a patient build up game style at all costs, we will become unwatchable. Actually we already are unwatchable!

[LostDoggy]

Yep the safe option is certainly not getting us anywhere so a few risks can't hurt. Not like we're not getting thumped as it is!

If we're trying to learn a patient build up game style at all costs, we will become unwatchable. Actually we already are unwatchable!

Amen

[Greystache]

Again Flags

Hawthorn 1
Bulldogs 0

Finals dont count, flags do. It is the fact that the successful clubs expect wins and flags, the smaller clubs, like the Dogs just say well we tried hard...What I am saying is that we as supporters need to change our mind set and start to demand more not sit back and say "oh well we nearly got there"...Second best is no good anymore, nearly there does not rate.

I just want supporter to say enough is enough and put some heat back into the club, make them want it and let them know that we as a membership will no longer sit back and watch sub-standard performance from what are meant to be the elite players of their ilk.

This will help if you want to give it a try- google.com

Flags since 2008-

Hawthorn- 0
Western Bulldogs- 0

[LostDoggy]

This will help if you want to give it a try- google.com

Flags since 2008-

Hawthorn- 0
Western Bulldogs- 0

Real nice, well done, tell me did Hawthorn win the flag in 2008 or do you just like to be difficult.:rolleyes:

[LostDoggy]

Matter of fact to make the point even better...Geelong won the flag in 07, 09 & 11 so they must be rebuilding now too then... see how we as members just sit back and go well we had a good three years, these teams have had good ten yers stints.

I ask what is the core of our problem, coaching?, recruiting? board? or the members not expecting much?

[Greystache]

Real nice, well done, tell me did Hawthorn win the flag in 2008 or do you just like to be difficult.:rolleyes:

I'm trying hard to find a point in what you've been posting. The closest I can come to one is you think that after Hawthorn won the flag in 2008 they have been a power and we have been poor.

The facts are Hawthorn have been little more than an also ran in recent years. 1 final win is a massive under achievement given the list and age demographic they have. The Bulldogs have won 2 finals in the same period of time and our list, due to a long list of short term list management decisions, poor recruiting 4-7 years ago, and the lost of 2 of our most promising players to expansion clubs, is completely undbalanced and in need of a total rebuild.

If you think Hawthorn have been a shining example over the past 4 years I am gobsmacked.

[Dancin' Douggy]

I'm not saying 'oh well we had 3 good years' I'm just explaining why the media is hammering Melbourne and not the Dogs

[LostDoggy]

I'm trying hard to find a point in what you've been posting. The closest I can come to one is you think that after Hawthorn won the flag in 2008 they have been a power and we have been poor.

The facts are Hawthorn have been little more than an also ran in recent years. 1 final win is a massive under achievement given the list and age demographic they have. The Bulldogs have won 2 finals in the same period of time and our list, due to a long list of short term list management decisions, poor recruiting 4-7 years ago, and the lost of 2 of our most promising players to expansion clubs, is completely undbalanced and in need of a total rebuild.

If you think Hawthorn have been a shining example over the past 4 years I am gobsmacked.

All I am trying to point out is that the members of successful clubs expect flags not finals wins. We as members must demand more from the club, we have to let them know that enough is enough, they need to be held accountable.

[1eyedog]

I don't believe anyone wants the coach sacked at this early stage. The worrying things that most are concerned about are the selections each week and game plans.

Mofra hit the nail on the head. It's about building all the facets of the game plan before rolling out the game plan.

Contested ball is the first facet.

This thing will be built from the ground up and built properly, perhaps over the next couple of years before we see results. Hopefully he knows what he is doing.

I am sure Macca has sold this model to upper management. He won't get the sack.

[LostDoggy]

Mofra hit the nail on the head. It's about building all the facets of the game plan before rolling out the game plan.

Contested ball is the first facet.

This thing will be built from the ground up and built properly, perhaps over the next couple of years before we see results. Hopefully he knows what he is doing.

I am sure Macca has sold this model to upper management. He won't get the sack.

Well making what 3 changes every week to a team wont do it either, as far as I am concerned if you are going to rebuild rest everyone and blood the young blokes throw em all in. Got nothing to lose now have we.

[1eyedog]

Well making what 3 changes every week to a team wont do it either, as far as I am concerned if you are going to rebuild rest everyone and blood the young blokes throw em all in. Got nothing to lose now have we.

Except a heap of broken young bodies:rolleyes:

[LostDoggy]

So whats is GCS and GWS do, oh thats right play alot of kids to build them....hmmmmmm

[1eyedog]

So whats is GCS and GWS do, oh thats right play alot of kids to build them....hmmmmmm

That's right, they brought in a heap of oldies who will never see them play finals to protect the kids a bit...hmmmmmm!

[chef]

So whats is GCS and GWS do, oh thats right play alot of kids to build them....hmmmmmm

Do you think our club would survive 3-4 seasons of getting flogged every week?

[LostDoggy]

Do you think our club would survive 3-4 seasons of getting flogged every week?

ummm we have since what 1877.

[1eyedog]

Do you think our club would survive 3-4 seasons of getting flogged every week?

Ours wouldn't no but the francises would. GWS and GC need bodies around to protect their prime cattle with a rotate the kids policy. If we got flogged by 10 goals every week for the next 3 years we would be lucky to get 10,000 members. In this clime the AFL would be shipping us off to Tassie or Darwin as quick as a wink.

[LostDoggy]

Ours wouldn't no but the francises would. GWS and GC need bodies around to protect their prime cattle with a rotate the kids policy. If we got flogged by 10 goals every week for the next 3 years we would be lucky to get 10,000 members. In this clime the AFL would be shipping us off to Tassie or Darwin as quick as a wink.

I like Tassie sounds nice, cornered membership great fishing, crayfish.;)

[LostDoggy]

Ours wouldn't no but the francises would. GWS and GC need bodies around to protect their prime cattle with a rotate the kids policy. If we got flogged by 10 goals every week for the next 3 years we would be lucky to get 10,000 members. In this clime the AFL would be shipping us off to Tassie or Darwin as quick as a wink.

We have never and still don't have the luxury of spending too much time at the bottom. Membership and sponsorship would suffer too much. This club is crying out for a marquee player, a hero.

[chef]

ummm we have since what 1877.

No we haven't.

[Dry Rot]

Matter of fact to make the point even better...Geelong won the flag in 07, 09 & 11 so they must be rebuilding now too then... see how we as members just sit back and go well we had a good three years, these teams have had good ten yers stints.

I ask what is the core of our problem, coaching?, recruiting? board? or the members not expecting much?

Good questions to ask about the state of our team now, so what are your answers?

And whatever the causes, how do you see the state of our list now and what are reasonable expectations of it?

[Dry Rot]

We have never and still don't have the luxury of spending too much time at the bottom. Membership and sponsorship would suffer too much. This club is crying out for a marquee player, a hero.

True, but we doomed to stay at the bottom until 2015.

[Ozza]

Ok Savage. You've joined this forum a couple of days about and thrown a dozen posts around about how we should sack everyone, how the board, the coaches, the recruiters, and the players are no good. The supporters don't expect enough.

So we get it that you've cracked the sh1ts and decided to join a forum to vent. But what is the next sentence? What is the solution? Do you think everyone at the club - and everyone supporting the club isn't craving a premiership?

Cracking the sh1ts and telling everyone that they are rubbish doesn't do a hell of a lot does it?

And burning anyone and everyone that has been at the club now, and over the last decade puts us a mile further back than we already are - and possibly does irreperable damage to the club. So I'd suggest getting a grip.

[LostDoggy]

True, but we doomed to stay at the bottom until 2015.

Yep agree Dry, I guess the club needs to manage expectation.

[bornadog]

How long do we as supporters have to sit here and take the crap that is dished out every year. All we hear about is "oh we tried hard" or "we are developing". Im sorry but we have been developing since 1954.

I for one have had enough of the rubbish that is dished out week after week, year after year. The clubs board, coaches and recruiters need to get fairdinkum and start to use their brains just a little more.

I am sick of second rate, over the hill coaches or coaches that have no credentials at all. Malthouse is available, he started at the dogs lets get him to finish here on a bang with a flag or two, he knows how to build a list, he knows what to do to win a flag and he has actually played AFL football at the elite level.

No more apathy from me, no more rebuilding rubbish it is time to deliver.

I am starting to wonder whether I will ever see us in a GF let alone win a premiership.

I think we should get Malthouse over to mentor Macca, if he would take the job.

[LostDoggy]

Ok Savage. You've joined this forum a couple of days about and thrown a dozen posts around about how we should sack everyone, how the board, the coaches, the recruiters, and the players are no good. The supporters don't expect enough.

So we get it that you've cracked the sh1ts and decided to join a forum to vent. But what is the next sentence? What is the solution? Do you think everyone at the club - and everyone supporting the club isn't craving a premiership?

Cracking the sh1ts and telling everyone that they are rubbish doesn't do a hell of a lot does it?

And burning anyone and everyone that has been at the club now, and over the last decade puts us a mile further back than we already are - and possibly does irreperable damage to the club. So I'd suggest getting a grip.

So being a dedicated hardcore fan is no good anymore then, you missed the boat, I have said that we as members must demand more from the club, not sit back and say oh well maybe next year, that has got us nowhere fast. I cracked the shits a long time ago, about the time that Wallace left Smith on Wren. Again all I have said is that we must no longer except near enough as good enough, how many time do you want me to say it.

Did we get the wrong coach...Yes
Do players need to go...Yes
Has our recruiting been very poor...Yes
Has the development of our player been very poor....Yes

We as members sit back and talk about it when we should be letting the club hear all about it, we pay for a service as members we deserve results. I know people say if you dont like it dont be a member, well if we all did that we would not have a club would we. Just asking for more then this.

Ps: Regardless whether I joined a couple of days ago or twenty years ago, free speech is free speech, but thanks for the slap.

[LostDoggy]

So being a dedicated hardcore fan is no good anymore then, you missed the boat, I have said that we as members must demand more from the club, not sit back and say oh well maybe next year, that has got us nowhere fast. I cracked the shits a long time ago, about the time that Wallace left Smith on Wren. Again all I have said is that we must no longer except near enough as good enough, how many time do you want me to say it.

Did we get the wrong coach...Yes
Do players need to go...Yes
Has our recruiting been very poor...Yes
Has the development of our player been very poor....Yes

We as members sit back and talk about it when we should be letting the club hear all about it, we pay for a service as members we deserve results. I know people say if you dont like it dont be a member, well if we all did that we would not have a club would we. Just asking for more then this.

Ps: Regardless whether I joined a couple of days ago or twenty years ago, free speech is free speech, but thanks for the slap.

Don't disagree with your sentiment Savage but I wonder whether the last 3 points are more responsible for our form and perhaps making the first point (wrong coach) appear so?

Don't quote me but I think members can attend the annual general meeting and voice concerns? (serious suggestion, not taking the piss). Alternatively, you can email or write to the club and voice your concerns, although I wouldn't think they'd respond with anything of real substance.

[LostDoggy]

So being a dedicated hardcore fan is no good anymore then, you missed the boat, I have said that we as members must demand more from the club, not sit back and say oh well maybe next year, that has got us nowhere fast. I cracked the shits a long time ago, about the time that Wallace left Smith on Wren. Again all I have said is that we must no longer except near enough as good enough, how many time do you want me to say it.

Did we get the wrong coach...Yes
Do players need to go...Yes
Has our recruiting been very poor...Yes
Has the development of our player been very poor....Yes

We as members sit back and talk about it when we should be letting the club hear all about it, we pay for a service as members we deserve results. I know people say if you dont like it dont be a member, well if we all did that we would not have a club would we. Just asking for more then this.

Ps: Regardless whether I joined a couple of days ago or twenty years ago, free speech is free speech, but thanks for the slap.

Regardless of how long you have been a member of the forum, people are entitled to voice their opinion. Sometimes it won't be liked by other members but it is an opinion nonetheless. We were all new hear at some point and have all been frustrated with the club over the stretch.

[LostDoggy]

Don't disagree with your sentiment Savage but I wonder whether the last 3 points are more responsible for our form and perhaps making the first point (wrong coach) appear so?

Don't quote me but I think members can attend the annual general meeting and voice concerns? (serious suggestion, not taking the piss). Alternatively, you can email or write to the club and voice your concerns, although I wouldn't think they'd respond with anything of real substance.

One voice in a sea of pride at a club wont do jack....nice suggestion but have to do it in numbers.

I ask what happens next year when another 8000 members dont sign up...I'm a lifer aint going anywhere but others will see something else to put their hard earnt into. That is what will cost us.

Solution....Demand more, expect more force the clubs hand to ensure we get results. End of the day one flag since 1877, last GF in 1961. I want value for my money.

[Desipura]

One voice in a sea of pride at a club wont do jack....nice suggestion but have to do it in numbers.

I ask what happens next year when another 8000 members dont sign up...I'm a lifer aint going anywhere but others will see something else to put their hard earnt into. That is what will cost us.

Solution....Demand more, expect more force the clubs hand to ensure we get results. End of the day one flag since 1877, last GF in 1961. I want value for my money.
How about you go write a letter to the club and have your whinge?

[Dry Rot]

I want value for my money.

I have never thought like that supporting a team.

[Bulldog4life]

I won't be naming them.

I would hope that I would have enough credibility around here to have you think that I'm not making this up... but please yourself.

Nice one. I'll have to use that one myself when someone questions me.:)

[anfo27]

You've made 2 statements today that are straight out wrong.

So your not a fan then chops?

I went backed & checked the game day thread & indeed you are right. There was only one poster asking for Maccas head. When i was reading all the negative posts yesterday & tried to recall how many I remembered it wrong. So I do apologise to posters for misleading them with incorrect information. Happy to admit when i'm wrong, unlike others.

I exaggerate do i chops? You wouldn't be exaggerating yourself?

I've only made the one statement today that was wrong chops, which would make your statement an exaggeration wouldn't it?

[Topdog]

Wowee this thread has gone bonkers. I never stated sacking the coach. Savage if you want a debate about accepting mediocrity which seems to be your suggestion start up a thread detailing how and why we fix it.

Sounds like a few people believe Macca has a "5 year plan". We will need to show a lot of improvement next year for a rookie coach to get past his 2nd year.

I still can't believe we get a free ride in the media even though we went to great lengths to ensure everybody that we needed a "refresh" and not a rebuild. This isn't a refresh, its in fact the opposite of refreshing to watch.

[LostDoggy]

So your not a fan then chops?

I went backed & checked the game day thread & indeed you are right. There was only one poster asking for Maccas head. When i was reading all the negative posts yesterday & tried to recall how many I remembered it wrong. So I do apologise to posters for misleading them with incorrect information. Happy to admit when i'm wrong, unlike others.

I exaggerate do i chops? You wouldn't be exaggerating yourself?

I've only made the one statement today that was wrong chops, which would make your statement an exaggeration wouldn't it?

Its already been mentioned twice. You not only exaggerate but seem to be forgetful as well.

[LostDoggy]

Wowee this thread has gone bonkers. I never stated sacking the coach. Savage if you want a debate about accepting mediocrity which seems to be your suggestion start up a thread detailing how and why we fix it.

Sounds like a few people believe Macca has a "5 year plan". We will need to show a lot of improvement next year for a rookie coach to get past his 2nd year.

I still can't believe we get a free ride in the media even though we went to great lengths to ensure everybody that we needed a "refresh" and not a rebuild. This isn't a refresh, its in fact the opposite of refreshing to watch.

Well written TD.
1 person a newbie has called for his head, so it's now anyone thats questioned his coaching.
I don't see the point in sacking the coach when the problems are far greater.

[anfo27]

So being a dedicated hardcore fan is no good anymore then, you missed the boat, I have said that we as members must demand more from the club, not sit back and say oh well maybe next year, that has got us nowhere fast. I cracked the shits a long time ago, about the time that Wallace left Smith on Wren. Again all I have said is that we must no longer except near enough as good enough, how many time do you want me to say it.

Did we get the wrong coach...Yes
Do players need to go...Yes
Has our recruiting been very poor...Yes
Has the development of our player been very poor....Yes

We as members sit back and talk about it when we should be letting the club hear all about it, we pay for a service as members we deserve results. I know people say if you dont like it dont be a member, well if we all did that we would not have a club would we. Just asking for more then this.

Ps: Regardless whether I joined a couple of days ago or twenty years ago, free speech is free speech, but thanks for the slap.

Love your passion Savage & thats something all posters on here are as well but not sure what your solution is.

Getting rid of the coach as well as his staff, half the list & recruiting staff will send us further back. Jesus Christ himself would need more than 17 games to turn this list around so surely he needs time to shape the team to the way he wants them to play.

We all want flags & a bulldog dynasty but that is going to take time. You yourself said the playing list is poor, how on earth is any coach going to take a poor playing list & turn that into premiership contender in 17 games?

[Mantis]

Nice one. I'll have to use that one myself when someone questions me.:)

Knock yourself out.

[anfo27]

Its already been mentioned twice. You not only exaggerate but seem to be forgetful as well.

What other post did i post today are you talking about?

[chef]

I want value for my money.

This roller coaster of emotions isn't value enough for your money?

[FrediKanoute]

These comments are quite unhelpful in the scheme of things. I would rather support the judgement of Chris Grant and Simon Garlick who would have been the key football people involved in BMcC's appointment.

Not to mention Tom Harley (ex Geelong skipper was a key part of the election committee)

[ReLoad]

Seriously, the guy is 2/3 of a season into his job. Cut him some slack, he has not even had the opportunity to clear half the crap from our list.

If anyone is expecting results or improvement when we clearly had not bottomed out yet is delusional.

What has not helped has been the line "refresh not rebuild" which has altered expectations.
He needs at least another 12 months, and probably at least 2 drafts to see some positive results.

Think about the list he has to play with right now? He has NOTHING that would even close to make us a better team, ergo, it is hardly his fault.

[bornadog]

Not to mention Tom Harley (ex Geelong skipper was a key part of the election committee)

Whether it was Chris Grant or Harley etc, they can also be wrong.

Sometimes people can be very good as an assistant but when they take the helm its a big step up.

[Bulldog Joe]

I do not believe the playing list is as bad as a few seem to think.

I do not accept that we should be losing to the Carlton side that played on Saturday. It was a glorified VFL team.

I do not accept that we are so poor that we should be on the end of the continuous drubbings that have become the norm.

McCartney may believe that winning the contested ball is what matters, but I see no point in winning a contest if you hand it straight back to the opposition.

I would have hoped that by this stage of the season we would have developed some method of regularly RETAINING possession and some semblance of an idea of how we are actually going to score.

Have at this point only seen the 1st half of the Carlton game and did see some improvement in ball retention, but we did have a seriously undermanned opponent.

There is no way McCartney can survive if we perform like this for the next 2 years.

[Twodogs]

I cracked the shits a long time ago, about the time that Wallace left Smith on Wren.

Who's Wren? Do you mean Robran?



Regardless whether I joined a couple of days ago or twenty years ago, free speech is free speech, but thanks for the slap.

And going around in circles gets old pretty quickly. You've made your point, now it's time to move on to a different one.


End of the day one flag since 1877, last GF in 1961. I want value for my money.


It's one flag since 1925. If you want to backdate it to 1877 then you should include the 9 VFA premierships as well.

[Twodogs]

I do not believe the playing list is as bad as a few seem to think. McCartney may believe that winning the contested ball is what matters, but I see no point in winning a contest if you hand it straight back to the opposition.

I agree and it's where most of my current frustration stems from. It's almost like the coach is deliberately not letting the team play to it's strengths. I can understand the emphasis on winning contests but that cant be the be all and end all. We need to get the ball into the hands of players who can carry/score as well.



I would have hoped that by this stage of the season we would have developed some method of regularly RETAINING possession and some semblance of an idea of how we are actually going to score.

I saw a fair bit of preseason training and while the emphasis was on winning contests there was an extra element added in. An outside runner would hang off the contest who would then carry the ball and kick it long to a tall who had made space. It seems like we've got stuck on winning constested ball and forgot all about the rest.

[LostDoggy]

What other post did i post today are you talking about?

Look it up yourself. Bad enough I read it once and wrote it up twice.

[Desipura]

Again Flags

Hawthorn 1
Bulldogs 0

Finals dont count, flags do. It is the fact that the successful clubs expect wins and flags, the smaller clubs, like the Dogs just say well we tried hard...What I am saying is that we as supporters need to change our mind set and start to demand more not sit back and say "oh well we nearly got there"...Second best is no good anymore, nearly there does not rate.

I just want supporter to say enough is enough and put some heat back into the club, make them want it and let them know that we as a membership will no longer sit back and watch sub-standard performance from what are meant to be the elite players of their ilk.

What difference does it make if supporters say we will no longer accept mediocrity? Will it make us recruit better? E
If anything, it will ensure even more members will drop off, something we can I'll afford.

[anfo27]

Look it up yourself. Bad enough I read it once and wrote it up twice.

You're the one making the comments so the least you could do is get it right as you have politely requested me to do.

[KT31]

I wouldnt ask the cheer squad anything they need to come up with a new chant that actually sounds good!

Bulldogs *clap clap clap*

seriously, is that all we have...

Lets give the coach time to build his list and see what happens.. If it was up to the cheersquad and fans the coach would get sacked every year we didnt make top 4, and Lake wouldve been traded out last year for having a shocking year.. God im glad we didnt :s

Think the coach will make some significant changes at the end of the year. Lets jsut wait and see :)

Exactly what happened to Rodney after he took us to a record number of Prelims's.:eek:

[Desipura]

Look it up yourself. Bad enough I read it once and wrote it up twice.

Obviously emotions are high on here at the moment (our ordinary performances to date playing a large part).
Can you not take it out on posters by criticizing them at any opportunity you can get?
We all have different opinions, some stronger than others (yes I know I am one of them), it does not mean we have to make personal swipes at people.
Your opinion, my opinion or anyone else's is no more important than all of the posters on here.

[SonofScray]

Well written TD.
1 person a newbie has called for his head, so it's now anyone thats questioned his coaching.
I don't see the point in sacking the coach when the problems are far greater.

Need to stick with the coach. Agree. Although in the medium to short term it probably means some tough seasons ahead as supporters.

[KT31]

Obviously emotions are high on here at the moment (our ordinary performances to date playing a large part).
Can you not take it out on posters by criticizing them at any opportunity you can get?
We all have different opinions, some stronger than others (yes I know I am one of them), it does not mean we have to make personal swipes at people.
Your opinion, my opinion or anyone else's is no more important than all of the posters on here.

Now this is just opening up a kettle of fish.;)

[LostDoggy]

Love your passion Savage & thats something all posters on here are as well but not sure what your solution is.

Getting rid of the coach as well as his staff, half the list & recruiting staff will send us further back. Jesus Christ himself would need more than 17 games to turn this list around so surely he needs time to shape the team to the way he wants them to play.

We all want flags & a bulldog dynasty but that is going to take time. You yourself said the playing list is poor, how on earth is any coach going to take a poor playing list & turn that into premiership contender in 17 games?

Enough said......I just want to see a flag before I die, lets see that gives them maybe 40 years.

[Desipura]

Now this is just opening up a kettle of fish.;)

You are probably right ;) I have said things in the heat of the moment, I don't deny that.

On a side note: If anyone is unhappy with how the club is being run, send a letter to the club and state your reasons. Would be interested to hear the response. I personally do not have the time.

[AndrewP6]

You seem pretty down at the moment Andrew. Hope you are ok otherwise.
I agree, where we are at is not great. The game day lack of response to obvious mis-matches is the biggest worry. But I don't think it's quite as bad many on here paint the picture. A month is not a long time in footy, and but for three set shots, we would be singing a different tune.

Haha... fine thanks, like many, not happy with the way we're travelling.

[Remi Moses]

What difference does it make if supporters say we will no longer accept mediocrity? Will it make us recruit better? E
If anything, it will ensure even more members will drop off, something we can I'll afford.

It's the biggest Misnoma in the world. Gee it's done Richmond the world of good!
Chicken poo, changing the coach constantly , microwaving the membership
The coach deserves some slack, and it will take time.
Just out of interest if they sacked McCartney and we're struggling next season, would they sack
The coach again?? Two good drafts thanks

[Bulldog Joe]

Enough said......I just want to see a flag before I die, lets see that gives them maybe 40 years.

My plan is to live forever....but on current trends that still won't be long enough.

[Desipura]

Enough said......I just want to see a flag before I die, lets see that gives them maybe 40 years.

Well you are impatient aren't you? You still have a lot of good years left in you.

[ledge]

My worry is we go into our shell the minute we get 2 goals in a row kicked against us.
We are not looking to score , rather try and ping the ball around the back and try and keep possesion.
We are not taking the game on, taking chances rushing the ball forward giving our forwards the chance to at least go one on one.
I want to see chance football, ok we lose but we kick 14 goals at least a week, that will win some games, 8 goals a week loses most.
AFL football is about kicking goals not stopping the opposition first, thats negative defeatist attitude.
Thats my rant about my worries with our coach at the moment.

[bornadog]

Enough said......I just want to see a flag before I die, lets see that gives them maybe 40 years.

Yes I agree, with you and all you have said, I like a passionate doggies man. 40 years sounds like a long time but it goes quickly.

[jeemak]

I agree and it's where most of my current frustration stems from. It's almost like the coach is deliberately not letting the team play to it's strengths. I can understand the emphasis on winning contests but that cant be the be all and end all. We need to get the ball into the hands of players who can carry/score as well.

I saw a fair bit of preseason training and while the emphasis was on winning contests there was an extra element added in. An outside runner would hang off the contest who would then carry the ball and kick it long to a tall who had made space. It seems like we've got stuck on winning constested ball and forgot all about the rest.

I'd really like for you to tell me what our strengths are. I'd also like to know who on our list is capable of carrying the ball and using it in a reliable fashion.

I don't think McCartney is a fool, aside from a few silly sub selections and some game day issues that really do need to be rectified with respect to retarding our oponents. The reason why he has pushed contested ball so hard is because it is really the only aspect of the game we can expect to tighten up with the cattle we have, and can control on a weekly basis.

I saw in the first half of Saturday's game some cleaner ball movement, from guys like Tutt and Howard, though with Murphy under the pump defensively, and a limited but albeit improved forwad set up with Williams presenting we still didn't have many tricks in our bag.

What has really disappointed me over the last couple of months is that the message of cracking in and fighting for every contest has clearly dropped off over the course of each game. This may have a bit to do with our younger players tiring more rapidly than we might have expected however, it also seems the players have become a little bored with the contested ball message.

Of most concern to me during games is the innability of our leaders to rouse the playing group to fight out the contest. It has been painfully obvious that all of Murphy, Giansiracusa, Lake, Cross, Griffen, Boyd and Hargrave are not capable of motivating the younger and middle tier players to tighten up and simply stop their opponents when the chips have been down. The following is guesswork however, the complete and utter lack of confidence shown by our middle tier players seems to me to be the result of a culture that is not encouraging, not supporting and not motivating. I look at players like Sherman, Veszpremi and Grant who are clearly talented but confidence players running around lost, and not playing as if their attributes are appreciated by their colleagues.

I think a significant portion of our current issues need to be accounted for by our senior core, who are on the field and capable of influencing the output of the younger players. These are the same guys that were bludgeoned by the supporter group as flat track players (not me, funnily enough) when things were going well. Perhaps they need to be scrutinised just as heavily now that the chips are down.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Nice one. I'll have to use that one myself when someone questions me.:)

When you have 8,000 posts and frequently provide information for the rest of us that proves to be true we will believe you, too.


I rarely agree with him but he has provided some 1st class stuff over the years.

[bornadog]

I think a significant portion of our current issues need to be accounted for by our senior core, who are on the field and capable of influencing the output of the younger players. These are the same guys that were bludgeoned by the supporter group as flat track players (not me, funnily enough) when things were going well. Perhaps they need to be scrutinised just as heavily now that the chips are down.

Listening to Lake in the aftermatch press conference and talking about mentoring the younger players got me thinking. Is this something all clubs do? I know that Macca has asked the senior group to help the younger ones on the ground to teach them how to play and be a mentor. Maybe this is an unnecessary burden on guys like Hargrave, Lake, Gilbee, Gia, Boyd, Cross etc? Maybe this is effecting their own game?

[jeemak]

Mate I think this is something all clubs do, though not many are in our position where a new coach has come in and has pushed the education mantra as strong as ours has.

I have very little doubt that the education and mentoring message tabled towards the media has been propagated by the coaching staff.

Personally I don't think these players are burdened by it at all. If you're a leader, these things should come naturally to you anyway, and they should be part and parcel of normal behaviour in a team environment. If it wasn't for the need to spin the mentoring and education PR, you wouldn't even know it was happening (if it actually is). What I'm not seeing though, is resolve to stop the rot while it is unfolding before all and sundry. My suspicion is it's got a lot to do with our leaders, particularly those in the middle of the ground.

[Ghost Dog]

What's the point of worrying?
A. If you are not happy with what the coach is doing write letters to the club. Vent your spleen.
I've actually gotten replies in the past! somebody must read it.
Actually I think our club is quite sensitive to what the supporters think, more so than other clubs perhaps.
But we are stuck with him for at least a few years now. That's the way it is.

[Sedat]

What's the point of worrying?
I think it is healthy to show some passion for our club and rationally highlight areas of concern, not specifically about our senior coach but about all aspects of our club. We should be front page news and in crisis after our shameful performances in the last 6 weeks, but nobody in the media gives a toss about us except for Mike Sheahan, who again tonight on OTC raised some very pertinent points about our future. I know he waxes and wanes on specific topics but I am glad he is pushing the Bulldogs concern barrow right now because otherwise we would not be talked about at all.

I'm certainly concerned by our complete drop-off in any semblance of competitive spirit in the last 6 weeks. I'm also highly concerned by the alarming drop-off in crowd support at our home games - 24k to Carlton and Hawthorn in the last 2 weeks should be what we aim for against interstate crowds (and indeed we would get that many to Brisbane/Adelaide matches in recent seasons). We are in a precarious position and have picked a bad time to be bottoming out and being non-competitive.

I have mentioned this elsewhere - if the next couple of years sees the game revert back to a one-on-one game style, the BMac gameplan of 2012 is a step in the right direction. But heaven help us and BMac if the game heads off into a different direction altogether.

[LostDoggy]

Yes I agree, with you and all you have said, I like a passionate doggies man. 40 years sounds like a long time but it goes quickly.

Thats what worries me, I may be dead before I even see a GF....LOL

[LostDoggy]

I think it is healthy to show some passion for our club and rationally highlight areas of concern, not specifically about our senior coach but about all aspects of our club. We should be front page news and in crisis after our shameful performances in the last 6 weeks, but nobody in the media gives a toss about us except for Mike Sheahan, who again tonight on OTC raised some very pertinent points about our future. I know he waxes and wanes on specific topics but I am glad he is pushing the Bulldogs concern barrow right now because otherwise we would not be talked about at all.

I'm certainly concerned by our complete drop-off in any semblance of competitive spirit in the last 6 weeks. I'm also highly concerned by the alarming drop-off in crowd support at our home games - 24k to Carlton and Hawthorn in the last 2 weeks should be what we aim for against interstate crowds (and indeed we would get that many to Brisbane/Adelaide matches in recent seasons). We are in a precarious position and have picked a bad time to be bottoming out and being non-competitive.

I have mentioned this elsewhere - if the next couple of years sees the game revert back to a one-on-one game style, the BMac gameplan of 2012 is a step in the right direction. But heaven help us and BMac if the game heads off into a different direction altogether.

I think the game plan has already headed in another direction. I am concerned at the fact the BMac is unable to read the play correctly and move quick enough to null out a player or run, this was very evident on Saturday. Again he sits in the box and makes the moves and the players need to respond, but there appear to be a lack of understanding somewhere. We are not dealing with school kids here folks these are grown men who are paid alot of money to do one thing.....play football and listen to a coach, maybe they need to assess their communication lines.

[Chicago1]

I would like nothing better than waiting 40 years until we win another Premiership as long as there is a guarantee that I will be at the MCG to witness it. It would be a great 100th birthday present. :p

[G-Mo77]

I think the game plan has already headed in another direction. I am concerned at the fact the BMac is unable to read the play correctly and move quick enough to null out a player or run, this was very evident on Saturday. Again he sits in the box and makes the moves and the players need to respond, but there appear to be a lack of understanding somewhere. We are not dealing with school kids here folks these are grown men who are paid alot of money to do one thing.....play football and listen to a coach, maybe they need to assess their communication lines.

I remember Rocket saying things like players not listening to instructions etc. etc. Every time we got belted. Players needs to do what the coach tells them to do. Maybe we have a few in there who think they know better?

[Bulldog4life]

When you have 8,000 posts and frequently provide information for the rest of us that proves to be true we will believe you, too.


I rarely agree with him but he has provided some 1st class stuff over the years.

Maybe I should have done a double smile :):) for your sake Sockeye.

[mighty_west]

I think I'll give him at least 2 seasons before getting worried, we lost alot of grunt and experience last year, he hasn't had the luxury of players such as Morris who generally plays that key defensive lock down roll and arguably around the mark of AA most seasons, add not having Williams as our key CHB.

Barry Hall was a massive loss forward, not having Wards grunt in the mid, Liam Jones had some kind of break out season last year, he no longer has the luxury of playing alongside Barry Hall, Liam is now double teamed on most occasions.

Looking at our list and there are quite a few holes, hoping to gap them with these kids coming through, I never expected alot this season but I have seen the type of style we can play especially early on in the season, I also half expected the season to pan out the way it has with all that effort with the contested style, especially taking its toll on the younger players and perhaps burning that energy mentally.

Really looking forward to this upcoming draft to inject some much needed class and skill, it's our mini superdraft, and we MUST get it right.

[Desipura]

I think I'll give him at least 2 seasons before getting worried, we lost alot of grunt and experience last year, he hasn't had the luxury of players such as Morris who generally plays that key defensive lock down roll and arguably around the mark of AA most seasons, add not having Williams as our key CHB.

Barry Hall was a massive loss forward, not having Wards grunt in the mid, Liam Jones had some kind of break out season last year, he no longer has the luxury of playing alongside Barry Hall, Liam is now double teamed on most occasions.

Looking at our list and there are quite a few holes, hoping to gap them with these kids coming through, I never expected alot this season but I have seen the type of style we can play especially early on in the season, I also half expected the season to pan out the way it has with all that effort with the contested style, especially taking its toll on the younger players and perhaps burning that energy mentally.

Really looking forward to this upcoming draft to inject some much needed class and skill, it's our mini superdraft, and we MUST get it right.

Totally agree and you can add Hudson to the list of outs from last season. I will reserve judgment until at least this time next season.

[Desipura]

I won't be naming them.

I would hope that I would have enough credibility around here to have you think that I'm not making this up... but please yourself.

Whether an ex Geelong player told you or not I do not know. All I know is that I heard an ex Geelong player (Cameron Mooney) mention early in the season on SEN that he thought the transition from Assistant to Head Coach is a big difference.
Dont know whether you are referring to this, if so its hardly inside information.

[Bulldog Joe]

Totally agree and you can add Hudson to the list of outs from last season. I will reserve judgment until at least this time next season.

Hudson's departure has cost very very little if anything.

Minson is one shining light in the season.

[mighty_west]

Hudson's departure has cost very very little if anything.

Minson is one shining light in the season.

Agree with Minson but disagree with Huddo, take him and Ward out of the middle, and we have lost all that grunt and bullocking, no one got his hands dirtier than Hudson, all those desperate second, third efforts.

[Desipura]

Agree with Minson but disagree with Huddo, take him and Ward out of the middle, and we have lost all that grunt and bullocking, no one got his hands dirtier than Hudson, all those desperate second, third efforts.

What he said

[Ghost Dog]

in the hun today. Will set to stay: very likely

[whythelongface]

in the hun today. Will set to stay: very likely

some good news amongst the doom and gloom.

[Bulldog Joe]

Agree with Minson but disagree with Huddo, take him and Ward out of the middle, and we have lost all that grunt and bullocking, no one got his hands dirtier than Hudson, all those desperate second, third efforts.

If we had retained Hudson, Minson would be somewhere else.

Hudson was a significantly lesser player already in 2011 over 2010 (when he should nearly have been AA).

[Sockeye Salmon]

Agree with Minson but disagree with Huddo, take him and Ward out of the middle, and we have lost all that grunt and bullocking, no one got his hands dirtier than Hudson, all those desperate second, third efforts.

I thought Hudson was cooked last year. He was one living off past credits.

[Dancin' Douggy]

some good news amongst the doom and gloom.

Will Minson himself is good news.
He's primed and ready to launch into the meaningful years of his career.

No 1 Ruckman every week has just seen him grow in stature and confidence.

Looking forward to the next few years of Will leading from the front.

Could he even be captain material?

[mighty_west]

I thought Hudson was cooked last year. He was one living off past credits.

Don't get me wrong, I had similar opinions, I'm just talking in general with losing alot of that hardness pretty much all over the ground, that said, Huddo has been pretty good this year for Brissy having watched quite a few of their games.

[MrMahatma]

A few guys have declined too. Gilbs, Shaggy... We've lost a lot of talent either from it moving on or age.

Our list is both young and unbalanced. Perhaps some blame lies with Macca, but not all of it.

This is our first year with a list manager.

Our footy dept has a "cheap as chips" feel to it though.

[Maddog37]

Don't get me wrong, I had similar opinions, I'm just talking in general with losing alot of that hardness pretty much all over the ground, that said, Huddo has been pretty good this year for Brissy having watched quite a few of their games.

I think he is averaging 98 supercoach points too.

[LostDoggy]

The only reason Hudson is getting a regular game is because Leungberger is out and Lower is crap.
Dont kid ourselves he was finished last year. Losing him has made little difference.

[Sedat]

The only reason Hudson is getting a regular game is because Leungberger is out and Lower is crap.
Dont kid ourselves he was finished last year. Losing him has made little difference.
He was finished with us but this year has shown that he still had something to offer at this level with the right club. It has been a win-win for us/Minno and for Huddo to move up to Brisbane. Anyone bemoaning the loss of Huddo should take note that the draft pick we got for him was used to upgrade Dahl onto the main list.

[Sockeye Salmon]

He was finished with us but this year has shown that he still had something to offer at this level with the right club. It has been a win-win for us/Minno and for Huddo to move up to Brisbane. Anyone bemoaning the loss of Huddo should take note that the draft pick we got for him was used to upgrade Dahl onto the main list.

As a rookie our last pick could be used to upgrade him, whatever number it was. Had nothing to do with the Hudson trade

[Sedat]

As a rookie our last pick could be used to upgrade him, whatever number it was. Had nothing to do with the Hudson tradeI know what you're saying but that pick 70 we received for Hudson ended up being our last pick, so technically we did use the Hudson pick to upgrade Dahl. It is only coincidence as you say - we would have used our pick 49 to upgrade Dahl if we didn't trade Hudson.

[Ghost Dog]

I think it is healthy to show some passion for our club and rationally highlight areas of concern, not specifically about our senior coach but about all aspects of our club. We should be front page news and in crisis after our shameful performances in the last 6 weeks, but nobody in the media gives a toss about us except for Mike Sheahan, who again tonight on OTC raised some very pertinent points about our future. I know he waxes and wanes on specific topics but I am glad he is pushing the Bulldogs concern barrow right now because otherwise we would not be talked about at all.

I'm certainly concerned by our complete drop-off in any semblance of competitive spirit in the last 6 weeks. I'm also highly concerned by the alarming drop-off in crowd support at our home games - 24k to Carlton and Hawthorn in the last 2 weeks should be what we aim for against interstate crowds (and indeed we would get that many to Brisbane/Adelaide matches in recent seasons). We are in a precarious position and have picked a bad time to be bottoming out and being non-competitive.

I have mentioned this elsewhere - if the next couple of years sees the game revert back to a one-on-one game style, the BMac gameplan of 2012 is a step in the right direction. But heaven help us and BMac if the game heads off into a different direction altogether.

I think it's healthier to print out some of your posts and mail them to the club!
When I mean 'why worry' I mean ' why worry without acting on it?' Alot of the stuff you say makes sense and always read these posts with great interest Sedat.
But I do think the club has plenty of good people who are trying their best. The hangover we have in our list can't really be hung around the coach's neck. Of all the things above I think the crowd support or lack of it is most alarming for me. People will pay to see a contest. They will not pay to see a whitewash.

[G-Mo77]

I know what you're saying but that pick 70 we received for Hudson ended up being our last pick, so technically we did use the Hudson pick to upgrade Dahl. It is only coincidence as you say - we would have used our pick 49 to upgrade Dahl if we didn't trade Hudson.

Our last pick was actually Panos. #49 was Pearce (Josh Hill) and #57 was Dickson.

Dahlhaus was drafted at #70, Panos at #73 both in the 4th round. We would have got a 5th round selection anyway if Hudson just retired.

[Desipura]

The only reason Hudson is getting a regular game is because Leungberger is out and Lower is crap.
Dont kid ourselves he was finished last year. Losing him has made little difference.

Who is this Lower player you talk about? I can't say I have heard of him, so I think you are right in that he is crap.

You can't be talking about Longer.

[LostDoggy]

Who is this Lower player you talk about? I can't say I have heard of him, so I think you are right in that he is crap.

You can't be talking about Longer.

Sorry yes Longer

[SonofScray]

Will Minson himself is good news.
He's primed and ready to launch into the meaningful years of his career.

No 1 Ruckman every week has just seen him grow in stature and confidence.

Looking forward to the next few years of Will leading from the front.

Could he even be captain material?

Absolutely, Will is a warrior. He is already a clear stand out in terms of leadership in the way he has gone about his time at the Dogs. Worked extremely hard under a coach that did not rate him, went down to Williamstown last year regularly and bashed the door down with performances which highlighted that he was in fact a step above VFL level. He has been given the no. 1 job this year and put in the best season to date.

He is persistent, aggressive, passionate and fromn what I can tell off field, he is a blue that pulls people together (players and wives business in Sth Yarra, Big Man Eater's Club, fishing exploits etc). I rate that collection of attributes very highly.

Beyond that he has a bit of a nasty streak in him, evidenced by his willingness to say things that are off, or get a bit more physical than others and niggle etc. It suggests he is prepared to do what the team needs over protecting his own image. A little libba-esque. Unfortunately, we shot him down over it. It should actually be celebrated.

[Bulldog Joe]

Sorry yes Longer

Crap is a bit harsh on Longer. a 19 y-o 1st year Ruckman.
Not many of those make a major impact.

[LostDoggy]

Crap is a bit harsh on Longer. a 19 y-o 1st year Ruckman.
Not many of those make a major impact.

Not good enough at the moment a better word?
Point is besides the 2 mentioned who can ruck full time at Brisbane?
We had 2 more advanced than Longer so losing Hudson wasn't that big a problem.
He only played 15 games for us last year because of poor form and some of those were good bye games.

[jeemak]

I remember Rocket saying things like players not listening to instructions etc. etc. Every time we got belted. Players needs to do what the coach tells them to do. Maybe we have a few in there who think they know better?

This issue is part message, part delivery and part execution.

It's simplistic for coaches to bemoan players not listening to instruction. When they do, they expect the audience takes for granted the message being relatively simple and easily interpreted, hence, absolving the coach of any blame.

We all know it's more complex than that, and this is why I find it almost laughable that McCartney is being judged the way he is by some of our supporters.

New coaches select players for reasons that don't make sense to us, they position them in places that seem silly to us, and they let them rot there when things are going poorly throughout a game and supporters get confused and frustrated.

It's best to wait it out and not stress in the short term. There's not a lot you can do with one pre-season, a depleted list and tiring younger players who are adapting to a game plan that is taxing on the body. If the trend we're witnessing now continues into early to mid 2013 then we should be asking questions. Right now, any fretting is a pointless waste of energy.

[Ghost Dog]

It's best to wait it out and not stress in the short term. There's not a lot you can do with one pre-season, a depleted list and tiring younger players who are adapting to a game plan that is taxing on the body. If the trend we're witnessing now continues into early to mid 2013 then we should be asking questions. Right now, any fretting is a pointless waste of energy.

Jeemak, I like your work.

[1eyedog]

Will Minson himself is good news.
He's primed and ready to launch into the meaningful years of his career.

No 1 Ruckman every week has just seen him grow in stature and confidence.

Looking forward to the next few years of Will leading from the front.

Could he even be captain material?

Not if he keeps shooting off at the mouth he won't.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Not if he keeps shooting off at the mouth he won't.

Yes. I'd be very surprised if Will did that again

[LostDoggy]

This issue is part message, part delivery and part execution.

It's simplistic for coaches to bemoan players not listening to instruction. When they do, they expect the audience takes for granted the message being relatively simple and easily interpreted, hence, absolving the coach of any blame.

We all know it's more complex than that, and this is why I find it almost laughable that McCartney is being judged the way he is by some of our supporters.

New coaches select players for reasons that don't make sense to us, they position them in places that seem silly to us, and they let them rot there when things are going poorly throughout a game and supporters get confused and frustrated.

It's best to wait it out and not stress in the short term. There's not a lot you can do with one pre-season, a depleted list and tiring younger players who are adapting to a game plan that is taxing on the body. If the trend we're witnessing now continues into early to mid 2013 then we should be asking questions. Right now, any fretting is a pointless waste of energy.

Jeemak, I like your work, too. I know the trend you're talking about, and I agree, but the trend I'm more interested in is the one where our players are starting to do what's asked of them.

We saw it in the first half last week - players are getting to the contest to help their team mates. What happens when they get it right is that the ball comes out - in our favour.

Earlier in the year we smashed other sides inside with our willingness to get the contested ball. That's dropped off a little now as the emphasis has widened to include what comes next, that is getting the ball away from the contest in our possession. To do that you have to get bodies to the contest - not the blokes with their hands on it, they are already there, but the next layer out, and that requires hard work, and a real preparedness to run, from contest to contest. It ain't easy, and young bodies tire when they try to do it. It's the next frontier for the group, and they're getting better at it every week. As their fitness and strength improves they'll be able to keep it up longer into games - into the 3rd quarter and beyond.

Those calling for the coach to 'make some moves' might think about why players are better off staying in place and learning about the possies they're in. They might get belted when they start to tire after half time, but that would happen wherever they were on the ground. It's not about tanking, but about teaching young players how to play their positions and how to drain their own tanks, for the team, without giving up.

Of course, the next logical phase is delivering the ball to the outside, downfield and inside fifty, so we can score the way we want to. It's going to happen, the signs are there, but it's going to take time, and a lot of work - in the gym, on the track and in games. As much as I want us to just start winning games right now, what I'm seeing week-by-week (in more and more frequent patches) makes me believe that the coach has both a method and a long-term plan that will have us winning lots of games in the future.

I'm more worried about supporters who watch all their footy on the TV and can't see anything but the scoreboard than I am about the coach. Those of us who get to the games each week can surely see that things are starting to evolve, across the whole group not just the kids, and I for one find my excitement in that. Singing the song, whenever that happens next, will put the icing on the cake.

[LostDoggy]

Those of us who get to the games each week can surely see that things are starting to evolve, across the whole group not just the kids, and I for one find my excitement in that. Singing the song, whenever that happens next, will put the icing on the cake.

Great post. People have to come to terms with the fact that it will take some time to become competitve again. We need to stick together and back the coaching staff in rather than buy into the panic thats starting to emerge with our supporters. Like others I am concerned about how bad we are playing, how difficult we are to watch, and how that is turning people away from watching and attending our games. But the solution isn't to sack the coach. I have three young kids who are all doggies members and my message to them is simple, anyone can support a team when they are doing well, it takes real character to support a team when it is on the bottom, and it makes the good times that much more satisfying. We have had a number of successful years without getting to the big dance, its now time to roll up the sleaves and start working towards our next shot, and we need to all pull in the same direction.

[Ghost Dog]

Good post. Look we have had the ball in our FWD 50 for large chunks of otherwise losing games. So we have that much right. The next part is to tinker with the FWD line. If Jones and Cordy can show continued improvement, I'm happy to chalk up a few losses at incrementally diminishing margins.

[LostDoggy]

This issue is part message, part delivery and part execution.

It's simplistic for coaches to bemoan players not listening to instruction. When they do, they expect the audience takes for granted the message being relatively simple and easily interpreted, hence, absolving the coach of any blame.

We all know it's more complex than that, and this is why I find it almost laughable that McCartney is being judged the way he is by some of our supporters.

New coaches select players for reasons that don't make sense to us, they position them in places that seem silly to us, and they let them rot there when things are going poorly throughout a game and supporters get confused and frustrated.

It's best to wait it out and not stress in the short term. There's not a lot you can do with one pre-season, a depleted list and tiring younger players who are adapting to a game plan that is taxing on the body. If the trend we're witnessing now continues into early to mid 2013 then we should be asking questions. Right now, any fretting is a pointless waste of energy.

Exactly. This is how I feel too. Although I think it will take longer than the timeframe you mention to come good. Three prelims in a row was a remarkable achievement but if you figure in the consequences of topping up, an aging core group and some poor draft selections - we were always gonna 'drop of the cliff' at some point . That time is now.
If we look at how long Richmond, Melbourne etc have been in the wilderness it beggars belief that the knives are out so quickly. How quick do people think a rebuild is gonna take ? a year ? In a way i guess its a good thing that both the supporters and the club expect more.

[LongWait]

Quite a few Geelong players are of the same view and struggled to see how MaCartney would make the transition as they didn't think he would be suited to the top job.

The Geelong premiership captain Tom Harley had no problem in endorsing McCartney. Who are these "few Geelong players"?

[Ghost Dog]

The Geelong premiership captain Tom Harley had no problem in endorsing McCartney. Who are these "few Geelong players"?

Yes and Mr Mantis while I respect you might not want to reveal the names, how many players are you talking about? When you say ' quite a few', to me, that means more than 3 or 4, probably 6 or 7.

[LostDoggy]

Whether or not some geelong players doubted if our taskmaster could make a good senior coach, the proof is in the pudding. Some the people that choose him should have had some doubt.

[azabob]

The Geelong premiership captain Tom Harley had no problem in endorsing McCartney. Who are these "few Geelong players"?

I'm in the camp of giving McCartney time. To back Mantis up I think the reason he left Geelong was because they wanted him to be a development coach not a match day assistant.

[G-Mo77]

Whether or not some geelong players doubted if our taskmaster could make a good senior coach, the proof is in the pudding. Some the people that choose him should have had some doubt.

There is always doubt when making a big decision so what's your point? That is if you're trying to make one.


The Geelong premiership captain Tom Harley had no problem in endorsing McCartney. Who are these "few Geelong players"?

Everyone has their opinion mate. I'm sure there are plenty of Geelong players who do believe he'd make a successful transition. I really didn't put any merit in the claims of a few players from another club.

[LostDoggy]

There is always doubt when making a big decision so what's your point? That is if you're trying to make one.

Well I nothing I've seen from him so far makes me think he is a good senior coach so if anyone had any doubts then they were right.

[Eastdog]

Well I nothing I've seen from him so far makes me think he is a good senior coach so if anyone had any doubts then they were right.

After all the hype at the start about Macca being the right man for the job to take our team forward. Still I would give Macca more time and not just the one season.

[G-Mo77]

Well I nothing I've seen from him so far makes me think he is a good senior coach so if anyone had any doubts then they were right.

Because from what you've seen? :D

Sorry I shouldn't even debate this anymore neither should anyone else. Chops has this covered. :o

[jeemak]

Well I nothing I've seen from him so far makes me think he is a good senior coach so if anyone had any doubts then they were right.

In your opinion, of course :)

[Eastdog]

I would say his job as our coach is safe ATM as its his first year. But if things are going the same way this time next year then his job will be in trouble.

[LostDoggy]

The proof is in there in front of you.

[Greystache]

The proof is in there in front of you.

You can see all this from watching on TV at home?

[LostDoggy]

You can see all this from watching on TV at home?

You watch team selections from the ground?
Anyway seen plenty of games live prior watching last 2 on tv.

[Remi Moses]

Well I nothing I've seen from him so far makes me think he is a good senior coach so if anyone had any doubts then they were right.

Gee ,just going a tad early chops?:rolleyes:
Some of the stuff I've heard and read on a 16 game coach is to be quite frank,Disturbing:confused:

[Pickenitup]

I wonder if we win this week if the doubt will still be there over Macca.

[LostDoggy]

Gee ,just going a tad early chops?:rolleyes:
Some of the stuff I've heard and read on a 16 game coach is to be quite frank,Disturbing:confused:

Maybe early, I call it the way I see.
Fred cook the poster went harder and earlier than me on Rhode.

[LostDoggy]

I wonder if we win this week if the doubt will still be there over Macca.

I don't see us winning another game all year.
We couldn't beat Carlton reserves last week, if we win this one the betting agencies should be calling for an enquiry.

[Eastdog]

I don't see us winning another game all year.
We couldn't beat Carlton reserves last week, if we win this one the betting agencies should be calling for an enquiry.

This game against St Kilda we are a chance but not really because we are just not playing well enough. We definitely should of beat Carlton last week as we were leading for most of that match.

[Ghost Dog]

Gee ,just going a tad early chops?:rolleyes:
Some of the stuff I've heard and read on a 16 game coach is to be quite frank,Disturbing:confused:

Agree. if you are going to pot the coach, back it up with some factual analysis. The coach has made a few howlers ( sub!, three rucks ) but one only needs to look at the North game to see that things are not as bad as you say.

I like the selections this week but feel Vezpremi is lucky to be in the squad.

[Eastdog]

Agree. if you are going to pot the coach, back it up with some factual analysis. The coach has made a few howlers ( sub!, three rucks ) but one only needs to look at the North game to see that things are not as bad as you say.

The North and Port were very good wins remembering Port beat Carlton.

[LostDoggy]

Agree. if you are going to pot the coach, back it up with some factual analysis. The coach has made a few howlers ( sub!, three rucks ) but one only needs to look at the North game to see that things are not as bad as you say.

Fact. We are 4th last. Melbourne and 2 new clubs behind us.
Plenty of others facts if you like. What are we for scoring this year.
How are our crowds?
Game style?

[Eastdog]

Fact. We are 4th last. Melbourne and 2 new clubs behind us.
Plenty of others facts if you like. What are we for scoring this year.
How are our crowds?
Game style?

Would you Chops give Macca another season or would you actually think about sacking him and getting a new coach?

[Ghost Dog]

See solutions not problems Chops. And suggest some while you are at it.

[LostDoggy]

Would you Chops give Macca another season or would you actually think about sacking him and getting a new coach?

Already mentioned he is only part of the problem.
No point changing just the coach.

[Eastdog]

Already mentioned he is only part of the problem.
No point changing just the coach.

It's the players and the coach. Everyone has to take responsibility. We can't just blame McCartney.

[GVGjr]

Well I nothing I've seen from him so far makes me think he is a good senior coach so if anyone had any doubts then they were right.

Perhaps from your lounge room isn't the best position to judge his performance.

[AndrewP6]

I'm more worried about supporters who watch all their footy on the TV and can't see anything but the scoreboard than I am about the coach. Those of us who get to the games each week can surely see that things are starting to evolve, across the whole group not just the kids, and I for one find my excitement in that. Singing the song, whenever that happens next, will put the icing on the cake.

I have only missed one Melbourne game, and I see us getting worse and worse. Some of the kids are going OK, but on the whole, we stink.

[Eastdog]

I have only missed one Melbourne game, and I see us getting worse and worse. Some of the kids are going OK, but on the whole, we stink.

We are in that bad phase right now but I'm sure it will come good again with good recruiting and development which is the key because if they both don't go right then it won't happen and will fall short again.

[jeemak]

I don't see us winning another game all year.
We couldn't beat Carlton reserves last week, if we win this one the betting agencies should be calling for an enquiry.

The Carlton reserves side that had six more players than us within the 50-150 game bracket, and three less in the 0-50 bracket?

The fact is we've got a list comprised of six or seven ageing players who's influence is declining, and a bunch of kids who are extremely raw and require development. We're tiring due to the game plan and the work that's been placed on the younger players, and our list management over the last six to eight years or lack thereof is hurting us as we don't have enough players in the 24-28 year old bracket to shoulder the majority of the load.

If you want to disagree with the above, and tell me our current woes are due to coaching then that's up to you.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Maybe early, I call it the way I see.
Fred cook the poster went harder and earlier than me on Rhode.

Fred started on Rhode before the 2003 season even began

[G-Mo77]

The Carlton reserves side that had six more players than us within the 50-150 game bracket, and three less in the 0-50 bracket?

The fact is we've got a list comprised of six or seven ageing players who's influence is declining, and a bunch of kids who are extremely raw and require development. We're tiring due to the game plan and the work that's been placed on the younger players, and our list management over the last six to eight years or lack thereof is hurting us as we don't have enough players in the 24-28 year old bracket to shoulder the majority of the load.

If you want to disagree with the above, and tell me our current woes are due to coaching then that's up to you.

Now come on jeemak, you're making to much sense now. :)

[LostDoggy]

The Carlton reserves side that had six more players than us within the 50-150 game bracket, and three less in the 0-50 bracket?

The fact is we've got a list comprised of six or seven ageing players who's influence is declining, and a bunch of kids who are extremely raw and require development. We're tiring due to the game plan and the work that's been placed on the younger players, and our list management over the last six to eight years or lack thereof is hurting us as we don't have enough players in the 24-28 year old bracket to shoulder the majority of the load.

If you want to disagree with the above, and tell me our current woes are due to coaching then that's up to you.

You can paint it anyway you want it.
You think we shouldnt have beaten Carlton then you have low expectations.

I saw 3 debundants, and 11 of the first picked not playing including no rucks, no judd and a last minute withdrawal.

I saw us lead the game early then a coach that couldn't counter one of so called poor coaches of the league.

[Desipura]

You can paint it anyway you want it.
You think we shouldnt have beaten Carlton then you have low expectations.

I saw 3 debundants, and 11 of the first picked not playing including no rucks, no judd and a last minute withdrawal.

I saw us lead the game early then a coach that couldn't counter one of so called poor coaches of the league.

Its blatantly obvious to everyone what your views are (you have stated it a number of times).
Lets wait until next season and see if he has put a stamp on the playing list.
With a cleanout as expected at seasons end, and an influx of new kids, hopefully they are able to play to the style he is trying to implement.

[jeemak]

You can paint it anyway you want it.
You think we shouldnt have beaten Carlton then you have low expectations.

I saw 3 debundants, and 11 of the first picked not playing including no rucks, no judd and a last minute withdrawal.

I saw us lead the game early then a coach that couldn't counter one of so called poor coaches of the league.

I thought we should have beaten Carlton, and I was disappointed with the outcome. I thought our experienced players would carry us over the line, and was surprised by how little influence as a collective they seem to have on games these days.

I'm just pointing out that the side we lost to on Saturday night had more players in the age and experience bracket that is extremely important, and where our list is lacking. That means the players that played for Carlton had more preseasons under their belts, and more match conditioning over a number of years and as a result would be less likely to tire as the game wore on.

If you can't acknowledge the above as being factors in our performance on Saturday, and want to pin it all on a first year coach then that's your perogative. It's going to be a long finish to 2012 for you Chops, and I'm not sure you're going to have a lot of fun next year either.

[bornadog]

I'm just pointing out that the side we lost to on Saturday night had more players in the age and experience bracket that is extremely important, and where our list is lacking. That means the players that played for Carlton had more preseasons under their belts, and more match conditioning over a number of years and as a result would be less likely to tire as the game wore on.

Carlton on average were still younger and had less average games. As Chops says, they didn't have a ruck, 3 debutants and there best 11 out.

I think we just don't have the players at our disposal which makes it hard for the coach, but also I don't believe we are trying to win games, or don't really care about the outcome. we are experimenting, educating, developing for the future. Like Chops says, I don't think we will win another game this year.

We really need to turn over at least 10 players or we will struggle for years to come.

[LostDoggy]

Its blatantly obvious to everyone what your views are (you have stated it a number of times).
Lets wait until next season and see if he has put a stamp on the playing list.
With a cleanout as expected at seasons end, and an influx of new kids, hopefully they are able to play to the style he is trying to implement.

I have 5 years to catching up to you in calling for Minson to traded.

[Desipura]

I have 5 years to catching up to you in calling for Minson to traded.

No prizes for second.

[jeemak]

Carlton on average were still younger and had less average games. As Chops says, they didn't have a ruck, 3 debutants and there best 11 out.

I think we just don't have the players at our disposal which makes it hard for the coach, but also I don't believe we are trying to win games, or don't really care about the outcome. we are experimenting, educating, developing for the future. Like Chops says, I don't think we will win another game this year.

We really need to turn over at least 10 players or we will struggle for years to come.

The average games were heavily skewed due to Murphy, Lake, Boyd, Cross, Giansiracusa and Gilbee playing, who as I said, should have had a greater influence on the outcome of the game.

I agree that Carlton had significant numbers of players out which levelled the playing field, but as you alude to, we either don't have the personnel or our current personnel is under developed.

Not sure I agree that it's viable to turn over ten players this year, though that number isn't too far from the mark.

[LostDoggy]

Reading back through the thread, it's bloody wonderful to see the passion in the group. When it comes down to it, we all want the same thing - success. Some want it yesterday (indeed, some want 'yesterday'), some want it tomorrow and some are prepared to wait a little longer in the hope that the success is of the sustained variety. With a core group of passionate supporters such as we have, and we all know plenty of others who do not frequent this place (I'm only new but getting braver), I think we've got a lot to celebrate, even now. Apart from the passion of its supporters, for me, one of the best things about our club is the coach. Don't be fooled by the level, almost mild, persona we see in the post match and pressies, Macca is a hard, ruthless bastard who demands 100% from his people. He has been on-message with the media since he got to the club, hasn't deviated once, and you can bet he is the same with the boys - he is teaching the Macca way, and the 'good' people he keeps talking about are those who are prepared to learn it and do it in games. By following the post matches and pressies, I've got the message that Brian is on board, so is Boydy, Higgo, Gia, Crossy - and I saw Moz speak at a function and he was the same. All of these blokes have at some point committed out loud to Macca and his methods and more or less admitted that they have had to change their long term approach to fit in with it. I have no doubt that at the end of the year we will see a hard, ruthless clean out, and they will be mainly people who have not been able to show that they are prepared to do things Macca's way. A bunch of new kids will come in - don't hold your breath for too many ready-mades - and we'll endure another period of transition as they learn how to play the Macca way. It will be frustrating, but exciting, too. I know this might trigger an avalanche of 'the sky is falling' posts; I hope it does, because the passion is wonderful. Whether you're a glass half full or half empty type, I'll happily stand beside you when the dogs start climbing the ladder.

[KT31]

. Whether you're a glass half full or half empty type, I'll happily stand beside you when the dogs start climbing the ladder.

Nice post RWB54, glad to see you are coming out of you shell.

I've always been a glass half full short of a bloke, except when it comes to drinking with Sockeye.
Then I'm a glass empty bloke waiting 20 minutes for SS to finish and get to the bar.:D

[Dry Rot]

I thought we should have beaten Carlton, and I was disappointed with the outcome. I thought our experienced players would carry us over the line, and was surprised by how little influence as a collective they seem to have on games these days.



This. There's a lot of questioning (quite rightly) of our new coach but perhaps there should more questioning about some of our players out on the field.

[LostDoggy]

Dropping a solid backman that could play on Betts and release our best creative back was great.
Playing a game plan and forward structure that makes difficult to kick a winning score had nothing to do with it either.
Not countering any opposition half time moves was nothing.

It's the players fault.

[Dry Rot]

It's all the players fault.

Did I say that?

[LostDoggy]

Did I say that?

I know you didn't. I removed the word all ok.

The game was lost more off the park than on.

[Ghost Dog]

You bang a tired old drum there Chops. What positives do you see in the team this season? Surely it's not 100% gloom and doom, even from the perspective of our new coach. He's done some things right; We were always going to have this slump, and a few posters even predicted it. One might even argue it's very necessary and allows under performing aspects of the club to be put under the microscope.

[EasternWest]

For one, I'm glad to see Williams playing down back on Reiwoldt this week. Modern footy is about having a flexible list and our selections have been a bit rigid in terms of one position players at times. We need a few more swingmen.

Given Tom is underdone, and Riewoldt can go all day, I'm even more worried about this matchup than usual.

I miss Dale Morris

[whythelongface]

I know you didn't. I removed the word all ok.

The game was lost more off the park than on.

Whilst there were definite tactical changes that the coaching team could have employed, the players also had the ability to take the game by the scruff of the neck so as not to let Carlton back into the game. Our decision making is, at times, schoolboy level. Surely this can't be attributed to the coaches. They can only work with what they have got and at the moment this ain't much.

[Ghost Dog]

Given Tom is underdone, and Riewoldt can go all day, I'm even more worried about this matchup than usual.

I miss Dale Morris

Reiwoldt got four touches last week. Or thereabouts.
No impact at all. Hoping for a repeat.

[EasternWest]

Reiwoldt got four touches last week. Or thereabouts.
No impact at all. Hoping for a repeat.

I was not aware of that. Hoping indeed. Was Richards on him? That guy is having a good year.

[Maddog37]

Didn't Kosi clean him up again last week?

[LostDoggy]

Whilst there were definite tactical changes that the coaching team could have employed, the players also had the ability to take the game by the scruff of the neck so as not to let Carlton back into the game. Our decision making is, at times, schoolboy level. Surely this can't be attributed to the coaches. They can only work with what they have got and at the moment this ain't much.
He doesnt have to pick or even list some of those players make mistakes.
Every body knew Gilbee was finished last year yet 2 people didn't. Gilbee maybe and the coach. Maybe he was contracted but we are 'developing' so play him.
Cordy while developing is not a better option than Jones. Do you want to win the game or not?

Maybe believe the players are devoid of much confidence because our taskmaster can't motivate, they are given little to no instruction or he is confusing the hell out of them.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Whilst there were definite tactical changes that the coaching team could have employed, the players also had the ability to take the game by the scruff of the neck so as not to let Carlton back into the game. Our decision making is, at times, schoolboy level. Surely this can't be attributed to the coaches. They can only work with what they have got and at the moment this ain't much.

This makes sense to me. At the end of the day we still have 5-6 players that struggle at senior level. It was the class of players like Yarran Murphy Scotland Carrazzo and Betts that was good enough to get Carlton over the line but our attack which is below standard.

[Mofra]

Given Tom is underdone, and Riewoldt can go all day, I'm even more worried about this matchup than usual.

I miss Dale Morris
I don't think Williams will stick to Riewoldt the whole time - I dare say we'll rotate Lake onto him on occasion. Austin would have been handy for a 5 minute spell here and there.

[bornadog]

I don't think Williams will stick to Riewoldt the whole time - I dare say we'll rotate Lake onto him on occasion. Austin would have been handy for a 5 minute spell here and there.

I hope the MC doesn't put Hargrave on him.

[SonofScray]

Whats Ben Harrison up to these days? He was a good match up for Captain Collapse.

[Ghost Dog]

I hope it does, because the passion is wonderful. Whether you're a glass half full or half empty type, I'll happily stand beside you when the dogs start climbing the ladder.

Post of the day. RWB54, love your work!

[Topdog]

Whilst I think Chops goes a bit too hard at this stage he makes a heck of a lot of valid points IMO. Disappointing to read a few comments about where he watches the game from and that he shouldn't have a strong opinion because of it.

Our ig name players having poor games last week was somewhat due to the coach.

[Remi Moses]

The Carlton reserves side that had six more players than us within the 50-150 game bracket, and three less in the 0-50 bracket?

The fact is we've got a list comprised of six or seven ageing players who's influence is declining, and a bunch of kids who are extremely raw and require development. We're tiring due to the game plan and the work that's been placed on the younger players, and our list management over the last six to eight years or lack thereof is hurting us as we don't have enough players in the 24-28 year old bracket to shoulder the majority of the load.

If you want to disagree with the above, and tell me our current woes are due to coaching then that's up to you.

Post of the season. Well Done

[Ghost Dog]

Whilst I think Chops goes a bit too hard at this stage he makes a heck of a lot of valid points IMO. Disappointing to read a few comments about where he watches the game from and that he shouldn't have a strong opinion because of it.

Our ig name players having poor games last week was somewhat due to the coach.

The points made are so obvious. But why not delve a little deeper into the reasons behind them?
See solutions and problems not just problems.
If someone is constantly negative it starts to erode their argument.

[Remi Moses]

Dropping a solid backman that could play on Betts and release our best creative back was great.
Playing a game plan and forward structure that makes difficult to kick a winning score had nothing to do with it either.
Not countering any opposition half time moves was nothing.

It's the players fault.

Just imagine You as president .
New coach sacked after 16 games !
2013 coach if we haven't improved sacked during the season.
3 coaches in 3 seasons! Wonderful!
The facts are the list is lopsided in the extreme, and silly inane digs at the coach are becoming tediously boring!

[Remi Moses]

Whilst I think Chops goes a bit too hard at this stage he makes a heck of a lot of valid points IMO. Disappointing to read a few comments about where he watches the game from and that he shouldn't have a strong opinion because of it.

Our ig name players having poor games last week was somewhat due to the coach.

He just shoots off at the hip to often!
My bet is if we improve, he won't have the cohunas to say he was wrong!yeah Mccartney's stuffed up( he's a rookie coach FFS):mad:

[Desipura]

He just shoots off at the hip to often!
My bet is if we improve, he won't have the cohunas to say he was wrong!yeah Mccartney's stuffed up( he's a rookie coach FFS):mad:

I will give him some credit, he delves into my posts of 5 years ago or so, he obviously does his research (or he has nothing better to do) :D
If he is wrong he will say so, but won't go anywhere near as hard as he is currently going, that's the way it is

[LostDoggy]

He just shoots off at the hip to often!
My bet is if we improve, he won't have the cohunas to say he was wrong!yeah Mccartney's stuffed up( he's a rookie coach FFS):mad:

I'll gladly admit I'm wrong if and when he proves it. Sorry
I don't see that happening.