Did we err in our pre-season training?

[bornadog]

This stat says a fair bit about our fitness.

We just lack the running power to keep going after 1/2 time... I know the coach wants us to get bigger & stronger, but we also need to be able to run out games.

This quote got me thinking. Under the past 3 to 5 years we were one of the fittest clubs going around. Bill Daveron an Olympic Coach was hired after the Beijing Olympics (successfully training the ladies Tri-Athlete Gold medallists and others).

The past pre-season we changed our training to do more ball work. Traditionally clubs don't touch the ball till after the new year and just concentrate on training, fitness etc. We were practising contested posession and doing skill work with the ball very early into our pre-season.

Are we now paying for it in the second half of the season with a lack of fitness which is killing us in the second half of games?

[Desipura]

This quote got me thinking. Under the past 3 to 5 years we were one of the fittest clubs going around. Bill Daveron an Olympic Coach was hired after the Beijing Olympics (successfully training the ladies Tri-Athlete Gold medallists and others).

The past pre-season we changed our training to do more ball work. Traditionally clubs don't touch the ball till after the new year and just concentrate on training, fitness etc. We were practising contested posession and doing skill work with the ball very early into our pre-season.

Are we now paying for it in the second half of the season with a lack of fitness which is killing us in the second half of games?
With playing so many kids who's bodies are not yet developed, we were always going to struggle in the 2nd half of the season.
After 3-4 pre-seasons, the kids bodies will turn into men.

[SquirrelGrip]

The past pre-season we changed our training to do more ball work.

We've actually been doing more ball work? Anyone who has seen our skill level this year knows this surely couldn't be true!!

[SlimPickens]

This quote got me thinking. Under the past 3 to 5 years we were one of the fittest clubs going around. Bill Daveron an Olympic Coach was hired after the Beijing Olympics (successfully training the ladies Tri-Athlete Gold medallists and others).

The past pre-season we changed our training to do more ball work. Traditionally clubs don't touch the ball till after the new year and just concentrate on training, fitness etc. We were practising contested posession and doing skill work with the ball very early into our pre-season.

Are we now paying for it in the second half of the season with a lack of fitness which is killing us in the second half of games?

I actually don't think we have been that fit in previous years and that is the issue.
Fitness encompasses a whole number of different facets, cardio being one, strength and muscles conditioning etc. For a number of years particularly 10/11 IMO we struggled to run out games and when it came to playing in big games (finals) against the bigger bodied sides we really struggled (our finals record is testiment to that).

I've been reasonably critically of Daveron approach over previous years, yet this pre-season saw a big change in ethos to training, focusing more on getting our boys big and strong. No doubt under Maccas instruction.

The size that some (not all) of the lads has put on has been impressive and yes you will lose conditioning in terms of muscle bulk over the year. However the ability of a number of our players to cope with the change in body shape has been less impressive. Although not entirely surprising, we have dropped away considerably as the season has gone on.

This new heavily focused strength conditioning (Get Big/Get Strong) appraoch will pay dividends but we need to give it time.

[Remi Moses]

At least 9 have only played 50 or less games.
Could be a reason why they're struggling after half time.
Not sure on Roughead and Grant, and Veszpremi looks like he needs the Ambos after 5 minutes.

[Cyberdoggie]

This quote got me thinking. Under the past 3 to 5 years we were one of the fittest clubs going around. Bill Daveron an Olympic Coach was hired after the Beijing Olympics (successfully training the ladies Tri-Athlete Gold medallists and others).

The past pre-season we changed our training to do more ball work. Traditionally clubs don't touch the ball till after the new year and just concentrate on training, fitness etc. We were practising contested posession and doing skill work with the ball very early into our pre-season.

Are we now paying for it in the second half of the season with a lack of fitness which is killing us in the second half of games?

McCartney mentioned it in his after match conference yesterday that they deliberately sacrificed fitness work in order to build up some young bodies to try and be more competitive in contested situations.

He said they knew at some stage the lack of fitness would come back to bite them as the season went on.


I guess we can rule out blaming Davoren at least.

[bornadog]

McCartney mentioned it in his after match conference yesterday that they deliberately sacrificed fitness work in order to build up some young bodies to try and be more competitive in contested situations.

He said they knew at some stage the lack of fitness would come back to bite them as the season went on.


I guess we can rule out blaming Davoren at least.

I am not blaming Davoren at all. I guess I am asking did we do the right thing in our training methods?

[AndrewP6]

I actually have had this thought over the last couple of years.

[Desipura]

I actually have had this thought over the last couple of years.

Is this a thought you can/want to share with us? :D

[AndrewP6]

Is this a thought you can/want to share with us? :D

Haha.. Don't know that there's any great wisdom to be had! Just a feeling that we've struggled the last couple of seasons as the season has worn on. Yes, I know all teams get sore/tired etc... I've just thought it a few times.

[Desipura]

Haha.. Don't know that there's any great wisdom to be had! Just a feeling that we've struggled the last couple of seasons as the season has worn on. Yes, I know all teams get sore/tired etc... I've just thought it a few times.

I can see the merit in what BMac is trying to do by building the bodies up, unfortunately it's to the detriment of fitness which has brought some massive losses.
Another preseason under the belt of the likes of Roughy, Cordy, Libba and Wallis will do them wonders!
Unfortunately our list is not good enough which means there will be a decent turnover of players. We then have to wait a few years until the new crop get a few preseasons under their belts.

[Mantis]

I think our fitness levels were pretty good come rd 1, but they seemed to have dropped off over the course of the season.

I know we are young and inexperienced, but I would be very interested to know what our training entails now, how much running are we actually doing? And how does this compare to what we did in the past and what other teams are doing?

[Mofra]

I know we are young and inexperienced, but I would be very interested to know what our training entails now, how much running are we actually doing? And how does this compare to what we did in the past and what other teams are doing?
We must be doing substantially less running now - both Hall & Aker mentioned that we did alot more running in the Eade era than their old clubs.

Given we were "building bodies" last pre-season I'd assume the running will ramp up this time round. I do remember Howard mentioning he had to "learn how to run with the extra weight".

[Cyberdoggie]

I think our fitness levels were pretty good come rd 1, but they seemed to have dropped off over the course of the season.

I know we are young and inexperienced, but I would be very interested to know what our training entails now, how much running are we actually doing? And how does this compare to what we did in the past and what other teams are doing?

Some good points there, also if we did focus more on strength and conditioning then has that actually been a success for what they were trying to achieve?

[Go_Dogs]

I actually don't think we have been that fit in previous years and that is the issue.

This new heavily focused strength conditioning (Get Big/Get Strong) appraoch will pay dividends but we need to give it time.

Great post, interesting read.

It's an interesting observation that we haven't been that fit in previous years. I thought back in the 05/06 years we were regularly running out games well, and even being behind at half time wasn't a concern. Without going back and checking that stats, I'd say that period would be one of our best for winning after being down at half time. In more recent times I suspect you are on the mark.

Really looking forward to seeing the transition for our players into big bodied beasts who thrive on the contest. As you say, it'll take a while but the results should be well worth it.

(Knowing our luck, the game will transition to McMahon types being the sought after shape/type and all our hard work not worth it. :D )

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I actually don't think we have been that fit in previous years and that is the issue.
Fitness encompasses a whole number of different facets, cardio being one, strength and muscles conditioning etc. For a number of years particularly 10/11 IMO we struggled to run out games and when it came to playing in big games (finals) against the bigger bodied sides we really struggled (our finals record is testiment to that).

I've been reasonably critically of Daveron approach over previous years, yet this pre-season saw a big change in ethos to training, focusing more on getting our boys big and strong. No doubt under Maccas instruction.

The size that some (not all) of the lads has put on has been impressive and yes you will lose conditioning in terms of muscle bulk over the year. However the ability of a number of our players to cope with the change in body shape has been less impressive. Although not entirely surprising, we have dropped away considerably as the season has gone on.

This new heavily focused strength conditioning (Get Big/Get Strong) appraoch will pay dividends but we need to give it time.

A really good post.

You've been offering some great perspective over the last few weeks Slim. In a tough period for the club and its supporters, I've enjoyed reading your posts.

I don't think we'll see benefits until the 2014 season personally -- it usually takes 3 pre-seasons to get it 'right'.

[jeemak]

Great post, interesting read.

It's an interesting observation that we haven't been that fit in previous years. I thought back in the 05/06 years we were regularly running out games well, and even being behind at half time wasn't a concern. Without going back and checking that stats, I'd say that period would be one of our best for winning after being down at half time. In more recent times I suspect you are on the mark.

Really looking forward to seeing the transition for our players into big bodied beasts who thrive on the contest. As you say, it'll take a while but the results should be well worth it.

(Knowing our luck, the game will transition to McMahon types being the sought after shape/type and all our hard work not worth it. :D )

It is interesting to look at how our game changed in the inital time period you mention from free flowing and over powering teams late in games to the current, and I think the change can be marked when our senior players like Akermanis, Hahn, Eagleton, Boyd, Gilbee, Hargrave, Cross, Giansiracusa, Hudson, Morris and Johnson all started heading towards 30 years of age.

In 2010 we saw that these players, if still around, weren't as quick as they once were and were more prone to injury in some cases, and most definitely weren't able to maintain a high level across an entire game.

Losing Cooney, Ward and Harbrow while not getting a lot out of draft picks since 2005 hasn't helped the situation. What we're left with now is a bunch of players that need to reach the level of fitness the previously mentioned players reached around 2005-2008 and the remaining senior core being seriously past their physical peak.

Everybody keeps saying it, and this is a perfect example of why it's true. Our list is seriously stuffed for quality players in that 23-28 mark that are physically able to keep the team competitive.

I had my concerns surrounding our physical performance late in seasons around the 2008-2010 mark, but not enough to point the finger at anyone in particular that might have been running the club. All that aside, I have no doubt all of the positive things we saw from our younger players at the start of this year have disipated due to the load put on them over the most recent preseason. I'm glad we've not endured soft tissue injuries to them to this point, I really hope soft tissue injuries don't put the brown cream on the prvoerbial cake we're currently eating.

[The Underdog]

But wasn't it the toughest pre-season everyone had ever done?
I did wonder what effect the change in pre-season focus would have on us. It doesn't appear to be positive but if we were mentally tough enough and able to move the ball with any fluency whatsoever it might not be as obvious.

[Ghost Dog]

It is interesting to look at how our game changed in the inital time period you mention from free flowing and over powering teams late in games to the current, and I think the change can be marked when our senior players like Akermanis, Hahn, Eagleton, Boyd, Gilbee, Hargrave, Cross, Giansiracusa, Hudson, Morris and Johnson all started heading towards 30 years of age.

In 2010 we saw that these players, if still around, weren't as quick as they once were and were more prone to injury in some cases, and most definitely weren't able to maintain a high level across an entire game.

Losing Cooney, Ward and Harbrow while not getting a lot out of draft picks since 2005 hasn't helped the situation. What we're left with now is a bunch of players that need to reach the level of fitness the previously mentioned players reached around 2005-2008 and the remaining senior core being seriously past their physical peak.

Everybody keeps saying it, and this is a perfect example of why it's true. Our list is seriously stuffed for quality players in that 23-28 mark that are physically able to keep the team competitive.

I had my concerns surrounding our physical performance late in seasons around the 2008-2010 mark, but not enough to point the finger at anyone in particular that might have been running the club. All that aside, I have no doubt all of the positive things we saw from our younger players at the start of this year have disipated due to the load put on them over the most recent preseason. I'm glad we've not endured soft tissue injuries to them to this point, I really hope soft tissue injuries don't put the brown cream on the prvoerbial cake we're currently eating.

I'd be happy to rest Dahlhaus a bit now that the season's boat has left the ramp.
If he were to be injured this season it would really put the strawberry on the cake for supporters. Then again, he is one of the reasons why you might actually go to the footy. to watch us on Sunday was one of the worst games of footy I have seen all year.

[MrMahatma]

We haven't had too many soft tissue injuries, which is a good result. A couple but not loads.

No talk of OP either.

We won't know if it's the right approach for another 18 months IMO. Need to show improved competitiveness before then though.

[bornadog]

But wasn't it the toughest pre-season everyone had ever done?
I did wonder what effect the change in pre-season focus would have on us. It doesn't appear to be positive but if we were mentally tough enough and able to move the ball with any fluency whatsoever it might not be as obvious.

Tough pre-season doing weights in the gym building bodies. I find Macca's approach very old fashion

[Maddog37]

I have always been amazed by how big and strong Eagles players have looked and the way they transform skinny kids into men in such short time frames. It will take us a couple of years to be strong enough but I prefer that to having a team full of race horses that cannot handle finals pressure.

[bornadog]

I have always been amazed by how big and strong Eagles players have looked and the way they transform skinny kids into men in such short time frames. It will take us a couple of years to be strong enough but I prefer that to having a team full of race horses that cannot handle finals pressure.

The Eagles always draft kids with mature bodies, seems like a policy to do so.

[LostDoggy]

The 90s were full rumours about eagles and steroids. After the Mainwaring, Cousins, Fletcher stories those rumours couldnt be true again?

[LongWait]

Tough pre-season doing weights in the gym building bodies. I find Macca's approach very old fashion

What do you find new fashioned?

[LostDoggy]

The 90s were full rumours about eagles and steroids. After the Mainwaring, Cousins, Fletcher stories those rumours couldnt be true again?

They just do the necessary work. The sort of work our boys did during the most recent pre-season and will continue to do. To compare the Eagles of 15 years ago to the current bunch is to draw the longest imaginable bow. Worsfold has presided over a complete cultural change.

The AFL drug testing regime is comprehensive; individuals who use banned substances will be found out, to think that a whole team, or a significant part of one, would be using banned substances is laughable. This spells it out -http://aflpa.com.au/news/post/fact_sheet_wada_and_illicit_drug_policy_idp/

The simple fact is that to win games you need big, strong bodies. We have a list full of (mainly) skinny kids with underdeveloped motors. We have to build them up. Until we do we won't be competitive,in the second half of games, and especially in the second half of the year.

[bornadog]

What do you find new fashioned?

Super fit, running hard from end to end, spreading quickly from a contest, moving the ball. We can't do this any more (did we ever:D).

Have a look at the way the Swans and the Hawks are playing, still hard at the contest but able to sprint away and make position. The Swans use to be boring with contest after contest but never kicked goals, thats what we seem to be doing, a style that went out a few years ago.

[Maddog37]

Super fit, running hard from end to end, spreading quickly from a contest, moving the ball. We can't do this any more (did we ever:D).

Have a look at the way the Swans and the Hawks are playing, still hard at the contest but able to sprint away and make position. The Swans use to be boring with contest after contest but never kicked goals, thats what we seem to be doing, a style that went out a few years ago.

Maybe we are starting that way like the Swans did with contest after contest and once we get that down we will start on the spread etc. In fact I like the sound of that plan, I think I will call it learning from the inside out. Hang on, that sounds familiar from somewhere.......;)


Would be nice if we could just skip to the end product but life doesn't work that way.

[LostDoggy]

They just do the necessary work. The sort of work our boys did during the most recent pre-season and will continue to do. To compare the Eagles of 15 years ago to the current bunch is to draw the longest imaginable bow. Worsfold has presided over a complete cultural change.

Yes a drug culture. A past player ODs,who was good mates with a current one was an addict? The longest imaginable bow- yes indeed.


The AFL drug testing regime is comprehensive; individuals who use banned substances will be found out, to think that a whole team, or a significant part of one, would be using banned substances is laughable. This spells it out -http://aflpa.com.au/news/post/fact_sheet_wada_and_illicit_drug_policy_idp/

You read too much afl propaganda. Fact - an addict never once tested positive.
To think WC knew nothing is laughable.

[LostDoggy]

Yes a drug culture. A past player ODs,who was good mates with a current one was an addict? The longest imaginable bow- yes indeed.

I try to stay up with all the goss, but I'm struggling with the current WCE player who was an addict. Who is it?


You read too much afl propaganda.

The AFL/WADA process isn't propaganda, it is a well-designed program that does better than most others.


Fact - an addict never once tested positive.

Factoid - the AFL has a 'three strikes' policy. Nobody has yet struck out.


To think WC knew nothing is laughable.

About what? The culture at WCE years ago? That's not in dispute, not sure why you feel the need to mention it.

To get back on topic, my opinion is that no, we did not err in our pre-season training. This year. In years past, probably yes. I would like to have see some of our blokes with more meat on them coming into this year. How much have the likes of Grant, Rough and Ayce put on this year compared to the year(s) before? More, I reckon. And they'll work hard on it again this coming pre-season.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

They just do the necessary work. The sort of work our boys did during the most recent pre-season and will continue to do. To compare the Eagles of 15 years ago to the current bunch is to draw the longest imaginable bow. Worsfold has presided over a complete cultural change.

The AFL drug testing regime is comprehensive; individuals who use banned substances will be found out, to think that a whole team, or a significant part of one, would be using banned substances is laughable. This spells it out -http://aflpa.com.au/news/post/fact_sheet_wada_and_illicit_drug_policy_idp/

The simple fact is that to win games you need big, strong bodies. We have a list full of (mainly) skinny kids with underdeveloped motors. We have to build them up. Until we do we won't be competitive,in the second half of games, and especially in the second half of the year.

You also need talent which we do not have enough of at the moment. You could make a good case for dropping at least 6 players from our performance against St. Kilda, which simply means that until we are able to rebuild our list you can expect to see more of the big blow outs in losses that is now becoming a regular feature of our games.

[Eastdog]

You also need talent which we do not have enough of at the moment. You could make a good case for dropping at least 6 players from our performance against St. Kilda, which simply means that until we are able to rebuild our list you can expect to see more of the big blow outs in losses that is now becoming a regular feature of our games.

Who would you say should come in? Im thinking some of those kids should get a go to give them a little taste of senior footy.

[bornadog]

To get back on topic, my opinion is that no, we did not err in our pre-season training. This year. In years past, probably yes. I would like to have see some of our blokes with more meat on them coming into this year. How much have the likes of Grant, Rough and Ayce put on this year compared to the year(s) before? More, I reckon. And they'll work hard on it again this coming pre-season.

They put on more meat because as their bodies mature they do anyway. We are trying to excelerate it but is this to the detriment of other aspects of being a footballer? Ayce actually put on lots of weight in 2010 (could be 2011) and he slowed down, and wasn't very agile, and then he had to lose weight. We need core strength not big bodies. In regards to previous seasons we were one of the fittest and always ran out games due to that.

[LostDoggy]

I try to stay up with all the goss, but I'm struggling with the current WCE player who was an addict. Who is it?
I meant current at that time of the event. Even if he is no longer there the current group are very close and still hold him in high regard.


The AFL/WADA process isn't propaganda, it is a well-designed program that does better than most others.
Might be well designed but the drug cheats still prosper. Pretty naive to think there are none in the afl or let alone club where rec drugs were a problem.



Factoid - the AFL has a 'three strikes' policy. Nobody has yet struck out.

Incorrect sorry. Travis Tuck. Even the afl has admitted that the 3 strike policy isn't really the last strike.
http://m.heraldsun.com.au/afl/now-its-four-strikes-for-afl-drug-users/story-e6frf9ix-1225868871780

[LostDoggy]

Travis Tuck! Perfectly correct. My bad.

I'm just really struggling with the idea that the AFL or even one club is riddled with drug cheats, and that's the reason that they have big bodies. If the Weagles have been on the juice all this time, as suggested, why did they drop away to the bottom like they did?

I may well be naive, but what more can we do to ensure that we don't have an East Germany in the AFL? I prefer to believe that we don't, or more correctly, that if we did we no longer do, and that the best way to win games and climb the ladder is to do it the old fashioned way - build big bodies in the gym and on the track (and draft talent, NBP!)

[Sockeye Salmon]

Travis Tuck! Perfectly correct. My bad.

I'm just really struggling with the idea that the AFL or even one club is riddled with drug cheats, and that's the reason that they have big bodies. If the Weagles have been on the juice all this time, as suggested, why did they drop away to the bottom like they did?

I may well be naive, but what more can we do to ensure that we don't have an East Germany in the AFL? I prefer to believe that we don't, or more correctly, that if we did we no longer do, and that the best way to win games and climb the ladder is to do it the old fashioned way - build big bodies in the gym and on the track (and draft talent, NBP!)

It was fairly well accepted that the Eagles wee on the juice when they first entered the AFL in 87. It was how they got their WAFL players big enough quick enough.

Their fitness advisor at the time was the bloke coaching Dean Capobianco

[The Underdog]

So the general consensus is that we erred in the pre-season by not taking steroids to get the players bigger quicker? Sure we'd be cheats but we'd be killing the contested possessions

[Maddog37]

If you think players are not using human growth hormone or removing their own blood and turbo charging it with their own stem cells etc etc then you are naive. Clubs that have the budget will leave no stone unturned. Alot of the medical treatments becoming available are so new that they are not even ruled on yet.

Call me paranoid but if it works, it is not illegal and is available do you think a club like Collingwood would not do it?

I have no idea other than what I read and see in the general media etc but it would not surprise me at all

.http://video.au.msn.com/watch/video/this-week-on-60-minutes/xila394?cpkey=b67d887a-8828-4386-89ac-74701cfb9349%7C%7C%7C%7C

[AndrewP6]

So the general consensus is that we erred in the pre-season by not taking steroids to get the players bigger quicker? Sure we'd be cheats but we'd be killing the contested possessions

We were doing that and it got us nowhere!

[Mofra]

I'm just really struggling with the idea that the AFL or even one club is riddled with drug cheats, and that's the reason that they have big bodies. If the Weagles have been on the juice all this time, as suggested, why did they drop away to the bottom like they did?
WCE have received the prioity pick 3 times - twice, they made the finals the following year.
Luckily, tanking doesn't exist

[LostDoggy]

WCE have received the prioity pick 3 times - twice, they made the finals the following year.
Luckily, tanking doesn't exist

Yeah - snagging picks 18 (Shuey 08) and 26 (Darling 10) are sure to get you playing finals the next year. Those skinny 18 year olds really make a difference, dont they. ;)

[Mofra]

Yeah - snagging picks 18 (Shuey 08) and 26 (Darling 10) are sure to get you playing finals the next year. Those skinny 18 year olds really make a difference, dont they. ;)
WCE - WA's Carlton