Second half fade outs

[The Coon Dog]

We've been hammered in second halves since our last win:

Bris 10.1.61
WB 2.8.20

Ess 9.7.61
WB 5.3.33

Fre 10.4.64
WB 4.5.29

Haw 9.9.63
WB 1.4.10

Car 11.3.69
WB 4.8.32

StK 9.12.66
WB 2.2.14

NM 11.4.70
WB 2.8.20

Rich 12.8.80
WB 6.4.40

Syd 16.6.102
WB 5.4.34

9 games
Opp 97.54.636
WB 31.46. 232
37.48%

Doesn't make for good reading. Is it fitness?

[GVGjr]

Shocking reading isn't it?
Fitness is a big problem but I think confidence and the want to fight it out isn't helping us.
We also have a problem that our midfield isn't doing enough defensively.

[Hotdog60]

Maybe a pre season of bulking up and contact drills has left us with little run left at the half way point. That coupled with a young list which will have trouble until they get a couple of more pre seasons into them.

[LostDoggy]

Horrible to see it in black and white like that. I shall calm myself by believing it is mostly due to young bodies and minds tiring in the second half of the season.

[AndrewP6]

I think it is indeed fitness. The "we've got a team full of young blokes" isn't it, IMO. Time for changes in the Physical Performance Dept.

[Mantis]

I think it is indeed fitness. The "we've got a team full of young blokes" isn't it, IMO. Time for changes in the Physical Performance Dept.

Perhaps the phys ed. dept. are only doing what the coaching team want them to do.

[bornadog]

GWS and GC are younger than us and they don't have thrashings like we do. As I said in the game day thread, we are the worst team in the AFL for the second half of the season. We have won one from the last 12 games.

[MrMahatma]

Perhaps the phys ed. dept. are only doing what the coaching team want them to do.
You really don't like our coach, do you?

[AndrewP6]

Perhaps the phys ed. dept. are only doing what the coaching team want them to do.

Agreed, but that comes back to the decision to appoint McCartney, and we've been on that roundabout before!

[Eastdog]

Not very good reading at all. I also think its a fitness issue because I believe we wouldnt have lost it by that much and was thinking we could keep the margin below 40 points today.

[Ghost Dog]

Shocking reading isn't it?
Fitness is a big problem but I think confidence and the want to fight it out isn't helping us.
We also have a problem that our midfield isn't doing enough defensively.

I would say our forwards are not able to be overlapping defensively enough either.

[Mantis]

You really don't like our coach, do you?

He hasn't impressed me so far with how he has developed the team/ players, but that has nothing to do with the statement I made.

Why should the phys ed guys be under the pump if they are following the instructions of the coaching team?

[MrMahatma]

Macca said a few weeks ago he kind of expected these fade outs due to how we ran pre-season.

They're bad, but at least we've put together some decent passages of play in the past few weeks, which is a lot better than a month ago.

[LostDoggy]

Showing on a larger scale too. Ladder percentage is third worse in the league only ahead of GC by 8%.
Think about that, GC 60% Dogs 68%.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Shocking reading isn't it?
Fitness is a big problem but I think confidence and the want to fight it out isn't helping us.
We also have a problem that our midfield isn't doing enough defensively.

We are also judging a very undermanned team, with flaws everywhere. We have lacked a key forward all year with Lake the only key defender of quality. Ward Hall Morris and Cooney have been huge losses. Gilbee Hargrave and Gia have been very disappointing. Playing 8 first year players has been a huge ask. Cordy Sherman Jones DJ Skinner and Grant haven't come on. Which every way you look at it this is a very poor team with physical fitness just one of the reasons but an important one in our fall from grace.

[G-Mo77]

GWS and GC are younger than us and they don't have thrashings like we do. As I said in the game day thread, we are the worst team in the AFL for the second half of the season. We have won one from the last 12 games.

We'd beat most in the first half though. ;)

[Sedat]

Dogs 68%.
I can't remember a percentage this dire since the dark old Royce Hart days.

[angelopetraglia]

In 89 seasons it is our third worst percentage!

Only 1981-82 were worse. If we keep getting flogged it could be our worst ever. Really highlights how bad we have been in this second half.

[LongWait]

Instead of bringing in lots of good young talent and training them to be stronger to ensure they will be competitive, successful AFL players for years to come, lets bring in some older recycled players and aim for the best result we can get right now! Bugger the future!

[G-Mo77]

Instead of bringing in lots of good young talent and training them to be stronger to ensure they will be competitive, successful AFL players for years to come, lets bring in some older recycled players and aim for the best result we can get right now! Bugger the future!

:D Good one.

Always good reading your posts mate. Glad to see you around in a sea of doomsayers.

[Mantis]

Instead of bringing in lots of good young talent and training them to be stronger to ensure they will be competitive, successful AFL players for years to come, lets bring in some older recycled players and aim for the best result we can get right now! Bugger the future!

Where has anyone stated that we should bring in older recycled players?

It's pretty obvious that our fitness levels aren't where they should be and it's also obvious that we haven't done much to improve it as the year has gone on. While this may have payback in years to come it's been disheartening watching our team get belted week in - week out... and as per our attendance figures (which have been pathetic) our members/ supporters are voting with their feet.

[LostDoggy]

I havent been to many games this year to see it with my own eyes, but from what I can gather we are not playing a Ross Lyon defence, which would limit the amount we lose by, but stifles the learning of the younger players. Even though we were belted on the scoreboard again yesterday, the effort appeared to be there. Obviously the defensive side of the mids & forwards is lacking, which then brings pressure on the defence. I was really dissapointed that we couldnt keep the margin around 40pts.

[LostDoggy]

Rumor has it that Zeph had to be substituted out of his birthday party when he was trying to blow out the candles.

[LongWait]

Where has anyone stated that we should bring in older recycled players?

It's pretty obvious that our fitness levels aren't where they should be and it's also obvious that we haven't done much to improve it as the year has gone on. While this may have payback in years to come it's been disheartening watching our team get belted week in - week out... and as per our attendance figures (which have been pathetic) our members/ supporters are voting with their feet.

No point my arguing with you is there Mantis.

There is a hard core of negative supporters on this board who won't tolerate the results we are currently experiencing and don't rate the coach and a hard core of supporters who like the direction we are headed in and are prepared (within reason) to be patient.

Join the dots...

[bornadog]

No point my arguing with you is there Mantis.

There is a hard core of negative supporters on this board who won't tolerate the results we are currently experiencing and don't rate the coach and a hard core of supporters who like the direction we are headed in and are prepared (within reason) to be patient.

Join the dots...

Are you really happy with 86 points floggings?

[LongWait]

Are you really happy with 86 points floggings?

Are you serious?

[Mofra]

Are you really happy with 86 points floggings?
I doubt any supporters are, but that's not the only point I take from these posts.

I remember Howard talking about "learning to run with the extra 6kgs" he had, and I think it's a valid point. We are struggling to run out games after putting the extra weight on which inhibits our run, a situation that is hopefully rectified somewhat this pre-season.

As much as getting flogged is terrible, it is worth at least trying to understand the longer term implications - if this means no more trading for Rawlings/Sherman/Street/Djerkurra types, and a view towards development that lasts longer than 12 months, than that's at least something positive coming from the longer term view.

[bornadog]

Are you serious?

Well you are constantly defending what the club is doing this year and seem to be happy with it.

I am happy to play the young guys but playing players that just won't cut it like DJ, Markovic, and experimenting with others, only to be flogged week after week with 10 goal thrashings is not what supporters like to see. We are entitled to criticise the club when we watch a game where there is no gameplan other than "crack in" and kick the shit out of the ball to no one in particular. We are currently the worst side in the AFL, and by god most of the supporters including ,me are not happy.

We stuffed up the prea -season and we are unfit and can't run out games.

I just hope things are different next year or its good bye coach, president football manager.

[LongWait]

Well you are constantly defending what the club is doing this year and seem to be happy with it.

I am happy to play the young guys but playing players that just won't cut it like DJ, Markovic, and experimenting with others, only to be flogged week after week with 10 goal thrashings is not what supporters like to see. We are entitled to criticise the club when we watch a game where there is no gameplan other than "crack in" and kick the shit out of the ball to no one in particular. We are currently the worst side in the AFL, and by god most of the supporters including ,me are not happy.

We stuffed up the prea -season and we are unfit and can't run out games.

I just hope things are different next year or its good bye coach, president football manager.

I'm realistic about the situation we are in, particularly with the state of the list. Rather than finding people to blame for past mistakes or finding a scapegoat for the inevitable pain we will have to endure as we rebuild, I am focussed on what we have to do to get better and to build sustainable success. I think that you will find that that is a consistent theme throughout my posts on here. I know that pisses you and a few others on here off, just as the pointless negativity and blame-laying pisses me off.

[bornadog]

I'm realistic about the situation we are in, particularly with the state of the list. Rather than finding people to blame for past mistakes or finding a scapegoat for the inevitable pain we will have to endure as we rebuild, I am focussed on what we have to do to get better and to build sustainable success. I think that you will find that that is a consistent theme throughout my posts on here. I know that pisses you and a few others on here off, just as the pointless negativity and blame-laying pisses me off.

Doesn't piss me off at all, so I don't know how you know that. What pisses me off is the acceptance of floggings week after week. I believe we can build for the future without having to endure floggings.

The last 12 games:

L 96 points, win 38, followed by losses of:, 58, 84, 38, 72, 18 (to a Carlton side with less experience than us), 76, 54, 70, 82. No doubt Geelong will belt us next week and Brissie the week after.

[Mantis]

I remember Howard talking about "learning to run with the extra 6kgs" he had, and I think it's a valid point. We are struggling to run out games after putting the extra weight on which inhibits our run, a situation that is hopefully rectified somewhat this pre-season.



Should we have been doing anything through the year to rectify our lack of run or should we just wait to the end of the season?

To me it looks like the players have been treated with kiddy gloves with respect to training loads and playing demands (lots of weeks off)... Long term this might help in their development, but players need to build their resilience to the demands of being an AFL player and I would have preferred a harder approach.

[LongWait]

Doesn't piss me off at all, so I don't know how you know that. What pisses me off is the acceptance of floggings week after week. I believe we can build for the future without having to endure floggings.

The last 12 games:

L 96 points, win 38, followed by losses of:, 58, 84, 38, 72, 18 (to a Carlton side with less experience than us), 76, 54, 70, 82. No doubt Geelong will belt us next week and Brissie the week after.

I'd hate to be snowed in for the winter with you.

[bornadog]

Should we have been doing anything through the year to rectify our lack of run or should we just wait to the end of the season?

To me it looks like the players have been treated with kiddy gloves with respect to training loads and playing demands (lots of weeks off)... Long term this might help in their development, but players need to build their resilience to the demands of being an AFL player and I would have preferred a harder approach.

The coach said at the start of the season we needed to improve our contested possession and player harder footy, well he got that wrong, as we are currently averaging less contested possession than last year. We can try and use the excuse that we have a younger team, but lets not forget we debuted 10 players last year.

[bornadog]

I'd hate to be snowed in for the winter with you.

You can start deflecting by taking personal swipes, but that facts speak for themselves. A season where we have been flogged by 10 goals in half of our games is not my idea of educating and learning.

[LongWait]

You can start deflecting by taking personal swipes, but that facts speak for themselves. A season where we have been flogged by 10 goals in half of our games is not my idea of educating and learning.

Come on - you quoted my original post and implied that I was accepting floggings "Are you really happy with 86 points floggings?" and then "Well you are constantly defending what the club is doing this year and seem to be happy with it."

You do this contantly BAD - have a crack at a poster and then when they respond you cry foul. Hypocrite.

[Mofra]

Should we have been doing anything through the year to rectify our lack of run or should we just wait to the end of the season?

To me it looks like the players have been treated with kiddy gloves with respect to training loads and playing demands (lots of weeks off)... Long term this might help in their development, but players need to build their resilience to the demands of being an AFL player and I would have preferred a harder approach.
Maybe "should" isn't the question, it's "could".

The time to build a fitness base is during the pre-season, as recovery takes over as the season progresses. Geelong won the GF last year with a player rotation policy, and that was with a mature list of seasoned players - if top line mature players will struggle to see out a season, younger guys who are still developing will struggle more.

I'm not happy with our second half capitulations, but given this juncture of our season I'll reserve my judgement on the effectiveness of the B-Mac plan on how we start 2013 (although hard-headed list management decisions will be vital this time around).

[bornadog]

Come on - you quoted my original post and implied that I was accepting floggings "Are you really happy with 86 points floggings?" and then "Well you are constantly defending what the club is doing this year and seem to be happy with it.".

I asked a question and you can't answer whether you are happy with the floggings, so you deflect.

[Greystache]

The coach said at the start of the season we needed to improve our contested possession and player harder footy, well he got that wrong, as we are currently averaging less contested possession than last year. We can try and use the excuse that we have a younger team, but lets not forget we debuted 10 players last year.

As an isolated stat it sounds similar to this year, but last year we debuted 9 young players but very few were given much more than a debut game. We really only played young players out of necessity where as this year they're forming the foundation of the team.

Last year

Skinner played 1 quarter
Cordy played round 22 & 23 (Once a caretaker coach tookover)
Tutt played round 22-24 (Once a caretaker coach tookover)
Mulligan played 3 games as a last option stop gap
Wallis played 5
Howard played 6
Schofield played 7
Markovic was a mature debutant

Realistically Libba and Dahlhaus were the only 2 that played considerable games last year, and they were two of our better players for the season.

[LongWait]

I asked a question and you can't answer whether you are happy with the floggings, so you deflect.

I didn't answer the question because it was moronic. Of course I don't accept the floggings but I understand that the scoreboard is not the only measure of what we are trying to achieve. If, after reading and responding to dozens of my posts, you still don't yet understand my views, then you are not trying and don't really care what I think.

Wallow in your self pity if you want, but I'm pretty confident we are on the right course and that we will challenge for the flag with McCartney as the coach.

[Mantis]

As an isolated stat it sounds similar to this year, but last year we debuted 9 young players but very few were given much more than a debut game. We really only played young players out of necessity where as this year they're forming the foundation of the team.
Last year

Skinner played 1 quarter
Cordy played round 22 & 23 (Once a caretaker coach tookover)
Tutt played round 22-24 (Once a caretaker coach tookover)
Mulligan played 3 games as a last option stop gap
Wallis played 5
Howard played 6
Schofield played 7
Markovic was a mature debutant

Realistically Libba and Dahlhaus were the only 2 that played considerable games last year, and they were two of our better players for the season.

That's a really surprising statement GS when considering that from our debut players only Clay Smith has played any type of substantial role.

And do players like Campbell, Jong, JJ, Talia & Roberts fit into the category of only receiving little more than a debut game considering none have played over 5 games and most have only played once we have opened the gates and let anyone (except Panos) play?

[bornadog]

I didn't answer the question because it was moronic. Of course I don't accept the floggings but I understand that the scoreboard is not the only measure of what we are trying to achieve. If, after reading and responding to dozens of my posts, you still don't yet understand my views, then you are not trying and don't really care what I think.

Wallow in your self pity if you want, but I'm pretty confident we are on the right course and that we will challenge for the flag with McCartney as the coach.

" Maronic" , " self pity" - you have now officially confirmed it all. The best way for you to argue is personal attacks. I had some respect for some of your posts but really you have lost me now.

[LostDoggy]

In danger of sounding like a broken record, the second half thrashings aren't very surprising considering the amount of young blokes in the side and the sort of pre-season they went through. Being at the game every week, you can see anywhere from 10-15 players cramping up later on. They'll come good.

[LongWait]

" Maronic" , " self pity" - you have now officially confirmed it all. The best way for you to argue is personal attacks. I had some respect for some of your posts but really you have lost me now.

I'll ignore you completely from now on. Problem solved.

[LostDoggy]

Instead of bringing in lots of good young talent and training them to be stronger to ensure they will be competitive, successful AFL players for years to come, lets bring in some older recycled players and aim for the best result we can get right now! Bugger the future!

I'm willing to meet you half way with this.
If younger ones arn't progressing as they should or as quickly as they should, you are in real danger of instilling a looser culture into them and the club. Just ask Melb, Port, and Richmond how that has worked out for them.
By cycling through experience, they help the kids develope as well as remind people of bigger picture stuff. However cycling through too many old ones you may run the risk of never getting anywhere but 6 - 11 position every year.
Fine line and I wish I had the answers.

[LostDoggy]

Are you really happy with 86 points floggings?

To be fair, this is somewhat of a loaded question. What response were you after?

[Maddog37]

Love the passion guys.

I heard Lindsay Gilbee on the radio today and he said that Bmac has basically stripped the club back to bare bones and is rebuilding from the ground up. He said that if we stick with him we will be much stronger for it. We tried the Rocket way and got close but ultimately failed.

At the moment things are bad no doubt but after 58 years of trying and failing to win a flag I, like Gilbs, am willing to do whatever is needed to be a long term viable, succesful club. Bmac deserves the chance to do it his way.

[Greystache]

That's a really surprising statement GS when considering that from our debut players only Clay Smith has played any type of substantial role.

And do players like Campbell, Jong, JJ, Talia & Roberts fit into the category of only receiving little more than a debut game considering none have played over 5 games and most have only played once we have opened the gates and let anyone (except Panos) play?

It means that what year you actually debut really means very little, it's about the number of games you play in a particular season as an inexperienced player. Those players you listed have only had some token games as well.

Some of our very inexperienced players have formed a core part of the team this year that wasn't the case last year.

Such as

Cordy had played less than 2 games before this year, this season he's played 12
Wallis debuted last season but barely played, this year he's played 18
Libba's played nearly every game
Dahlhaus the same

As well as debutants

Smith has played 15
Dickson has played 15

It's fine to say we debuted this number of players last year so we were giving kids a game, but this season that's 6 players who'd played 16 games or less that have played the majority of the season. Then you can add in the handful of token games to debutates this year and the team is genuinely comprised of inexerperienced players every week.

[SlimPickens]

Love the passion guys.

I heard Lindsay Gilbee on the radio today and he said that Bmac has basically stripped the club back to bare bones and is rebuilding from the ground up. He said that if we stick with him we will be much stronger for it. We tried the Rocket way and got close but ultimately failed.

At the moment things are bad no doubt but after 58 years of trying and failing to win a flag I, like Gilbs, am willing to do whatever is needed to be a long term viable, succesful club. Bmac deserves the chance to do it his way.

Good post and agree. 58 years of failing is making it difficult for some supporters to see the bigger picture (I don't blame them). BMac is putting a system and style in place that will hopefully lead to long term success. It may be a difficult for a couple of years but unfortunately this what is going to have to happen before we go forward. Blind Freddy can see with have massive holes in our list, our top end talent is old and a new young guns are very young.
It's going to take patience, I'm willing to stick through it I just hope a few others can as well.

[bornadog]

To be fair, this is somewhat of a loaded question. What response were you after?

Yes it was loaded. I agree there are posters who are negative about what is going on with the thrashings, yet some posters can't stand the club being criticized and seemingly everything is rosy. We all have an opinion, so no need to attack those that are unhappy.

We have a very fragile club, make no mistake about it and I mean financially and long term viability. Members are voting with their feet with he lowest average attendance at games since 1996, and this scares me.

All I can say is come mid next year, if the win loss ratio is not a positive one, all hell will break loose.

[Mofra]

Love the passion guys.

I heard Lindsay Gilbee on the radio today and he said that Bmac has basically stripped the club back to bare bones and is rebuilding from the ground up. He said that if we stick with him we will be much stronger for it. We tried the Rocket way and got close but ultimately failed.

At the moment things are bad no doubt but after 58 years of trying and failing to win a flag I, like Gilbs, am willing to do whatever is needed to be a long term viable, succesful club. Bmac deserves the chance to do it his way.
I do have one major issue with this, and it's probably unprecedented - we are rebuilding at the same time as GWS & GCS. It's going to be very, very difficult to compete on talent terms with those franchises - unless there are some poaching raids in 2-3 years, as seems to have already started to drip-feed through with the Caddy situation.

I really hope that this year is part of a longer term plan. The education of players sounds excellent, and the tactics seem a huge worry.

[bornadog]

I do have one major issue with this, and it's probably unprecedented - we are rebuilding at the same time as GWS & GCS. It's going to be very, very difficult to compete on talent terms with those franchises - unless there are some poaching raids in 2-3 years, as seems to have already started to drip-feed through with the Caddy situation.

I really hope that this year is part of a longer term plan. The education of players sounds excellent, and the tactics seem a huge worry.

Agree, GWS and GC have sucked out another 80 players from the system that were potentially going to be in the other 16 sides. The possible effect of this is the standards overall of the AFL may drop.

[LostDoggy]

To be fair, this is somewhat of a loaded question. What response were you after?

Happy was the wrong word. Tolerate was the word used.

Those that can't tolerate continual thrashings, want to recruit recycled players.

[Doc26]

Should we have been doing anything through the year to rectify our lack of run or should we just wait to the end of the season?

To me it looks like the players have been treated with kiddy gloves with respect to training loads and playing demands (lots of weeks off)... Long term this might help in their development, but players need to build their resilience to the demands of being an AFL player and I would have preferred a harder approach.

But Mantis isn't this the mantra at Essendon under Hird (& 'The Weapon') ? Would not appear to have done them any favours this season and only time will tell if it has set them up for future success or whether the soft tissue damage incurred under such demanding loads will have lingering effects beyond this season. Just possibly, McCartney has taken some learnings away with him from his time at Essendon in this regard.

[Sockeye Salmon]

As an isolated stat it sounds similar to this year, but last year we debuted 9 young players but very few were given much more than a debut game. We really only played young players out of necessity where as this year they're forming the foundation of the team.

Last year

Skinner played 1 quarter
Cordy played round 22 & 23 (Once a caretaker coach tookover)
Tutt played round 22-24 (Once a caretaker coach tookover)
Mulligan played 3 games as a last option stop gap
Wallis played 5
Howard played 6
Schofield played 7
Markovic was a mature debutant

Realistically Libba and Dahlhaus were the only 2 that played considerable games last year, and they were two of our better players for the season.

Eade was sacked on the Wednesday. Match committee met and picked the team on the Tuesday. Eade had the pleasant task of informing them they would play that week. Eade might not have coached them, but he did select them.

[Mantis]

But Mantis isn't this the mantra at Essendon under Hird (& 'The Weapon') ? Would not appear to have done them any favours this season and only time will tell if it has set them up for future success or whether the soft tissue damage incurred under such demanding loads will have lingering effects beyond this season. Just possibly, McCartney has taken some learnings away with him from his time at Essendon in this regard.

It seems to me that we are very much following down the Essendon path in that they try and load up during the pre-season and then do nothing but recover throughout the season.

[LongWait]

I'm willing to meet you half way with this.
If younger ones arn't progressing as they should or as quickly as they should, you are in real danger of instilling a looser culture into them and the club. Just ask Melb, Port, and Richmond how that has worked out for them.
By cycling through experience, they help the kids develope as well as remind people of bigger picture stuff. However cycling through too many old ones you may run the risk of never getting anywhere but 6 - 11 position every year.
Fine line and I wish I had the answers.

I think that your approach is probably the right way to go. We need to strike the correct balance between playing heaps of kids, versus topping-up incessantly and never quite having enough top-end talent. Like most things in life - it's about the correct balance, rather than all or nothing.

I'd rather that we keep some of the older players we have on the list as depth players with harder, more seasoned bodies (such as Gia, Lake, Cross, Addison, Minson, Williams, Morris, maybe even Marcovic and Austin) and draft kids around them, instead of either doing a Melbourne and having almost nothing but kids, or trying yet again to trade in older players. At least we know what we have with the older guys on our list and, provided they play the way the coach wants them to, we should stick with them rather than trading them out for recycled players from other clubs.

[Greystache]

Eade was sacked on the Wednesday. Match committee met and picked the team on the Tuesday. Eade had the pleasant task of informing them they would play that week. Eade might not have coached them, but he did select them.

Irrelevant it round 22 and they'd not payed in a team Eade coached.

[Eastdog]

Love the passion guys.

I heard Lindsay Gilbee on the radio today and he said that Bmac has basically stripped the club back to bare bones and is rebuilding from the ground up. He said that if we stick with him we will be much stronger for it. We tried the Rocket way and got close but ultimately failed.

At the moment things are bad no doubt but after 58 years of trying and failing to win a flag I, like Gilbs, am willing to do whatever is needed to be a long term viable, succesful club. Bmac deserves the chance to do it his way.

Good post Maddog37. We are really rock bottom right now and the only way we are going to improve this squad is to draft well (this year is a strong draft) but more importantly make sure we develop them. I think the pain right now is the price for a stronger team in the future. 2003 and 2004 we as supporters went through exactly the same thing. I just don't think we should take short cuts because they most likely will break down (eg: Brisbane getting recycled players).

[Doc26]

It seems to me that we are very much following down the Essendon path in that they try and load up during the pre-season and then do nothing but recover throughout the season.

Although we haven't endured anywhere near the soft tissue injuries inflicted at Bomberland. One would assume there is a difference in the 'loading' being applied or then maybe we aren't cracking in enough.

[Ghost Dog]

Good post Maddog37. We are really rock bottom right now and the only way we are going to improve this squad is to draft well (this year is a strong draft) but more importantly make sure we develop them. I think the pain right now is the price for a stronger team in the future. 2003 and 2004 we as supporters went through exactly the same thing. I just don't think we should take short cuts because they most likely will break down (eg: Brisbane getting recycled players).

What I want to do, is look at other clubs who have undergone bare bones rebuilds.
Melbourne, Richmond and so forth. How many times did they win first quarters in games while re-building?
I take confidence from the fact we beat Sydney, who are a quality outfit, for the first Qtr. if we can X4 this it certainly bodes well.

[Eastdog]

What I want to do, is look at other clubs who have undergone bare bones rebuilds.
Melbourne, Richmond and so forth. How many times did they win first quarters in games while re-building?
I take confidence from the fact we beat Sydney, who are a quality outfit, for the first Qtr. if we can X4 this it certainly bodes well.

For sure that 1st quarter was fantastic against a top side with the team we have got. The challenge in being a good side is like you said Ghost Dog X4 of that first quarter. Its expected that we are going to fall away to quality opposition but I hope in the next 2 weeks against Geelong and Brisbane our 2nd halves are much much better.

[bornadog]

For sure that 1st quarter was fantastic against a top side with the team we have got. The challenge in being a good side is like you said Ghost Dog X4 of that first quarter. Its expected that we are going to fall away to quality opposition but I hope in the next 2 weeks against Geelong and Brisbane our 2nd halves are much much better.

and the last quarter was absolutely horrible with the Swans kicking 10 goals.

[Eastdog]

and the last quarter was absolutely horrible with the Swans kicking 10 goals.

Awful final quarter considering we were under 40 points at 3qtr time. We just conceded far too many goals in the end. Sydney kicked 26 goals only 4 goals of 30 goals. Just not good enough.

[Remi Moses]

Thank god I'm on the other side of the world and not witnessing this.
Nobody excepts what's happening but knee jerk responses like recruiting recycled players to finish nowhere isn't the answer. Going to endure some pain, but I'd rather rebuild the right way.

[bornadog]

Thank god I'm on the other side of the world and not witnessing this.
Nobody excepts what's happening but knee jerk responses like recruiting recycled players to finish nowhere isn't the answer. Going to endure some pain, but I'd rather rebuild the right way.

Who suggested that?

[Twodogs]

Who suggested that?


I'm curious about that too.

[chef]

Who suggested that?

Wasn't it Longwait tongue in cheek?

[LongWait]

Wasn't it Longwait tongue in cheek?

Yep.

[jeemak]

I think it's pretty clear we've substituted repeat effort and aerobic fitness for core strength. This was particularly evident in our competitiveness in our first half of the season around the ball. Equally, it's coming to bite us at this time of the year when the already stronger sides have been able to run over the top of us in the second half, week in, week out.

I'd actually love to see us play the GWS and GC teams now, as I think we'd still probably have enough talent to maintain a half time lead, and capitulate in terms of fitness at the same rate as they would.

I will give our fitness staff some credit for how our side has been managed this year in terms of minimising soft tissue injuries. Sure, we've had a few, but when I look at the way Essendon went about things this year, helter skelter for the first ten to fifteen rounds and then everyone broke down, I appreciate the rest put in to our younger players when they'ver required it.

[G-Mo77]

For sure that 1st quarter was fantastic against a top side with the team we have got. The challenge in being a good side is like you said Ghost Dog X4 of that first quarter. Its expected that we are going to fall away to quality opposition but I hope in the next 2 weeks against Geelong and Brisbane our 2nd halves are much much better.

That first quarter is where we want to be the hard part is replicating that for 4 quarters. I guess with time the younger players will be able to run out games. Despite being a blow out I was more upbeat after the game, there were some good passages of play even after we lost our legs. It'll take time but we'll get there.

Confidence has a lot to do with it as well. The heads dropped when Sydney hit the front in the 2nd quarter and it was downhill after that. That's going to be a tricky hurdle to overcome now as well.

[Ghost Dog]

That first quarter is where we want to be the hard part is replicating that for 4 quarters. I guess with time the younger players will be able to run out games. Despite being a blow out I was more upbeat after the game, there were some good passages of play even after we lost our legs. It'll take time but we'll get there.

Confidence has a lot to do with it as well. The heads dropped when Sydney hit the front in the 2nd quarter and it was downhill after that. That's going to be a tricky hurdle to overcome now as well.

At Quarter time, Kirk talked to a Bulldog official. He asked him if he was happy with the lead. The official replied ' just wait until after half time'. And sure enough, we caved in. If our lack of match fitness is so well known ( and broadcast to all ) then why don't we come up with some strategies to counter it?

1. Hold up the ball more in the second half to allow people to get their breath back. Not for 10 minutes, but just short, 1 minute intervals.
2, Cooney cannot be the sub. We need an endurance runner who can fill multiple roles.
3. After half time, Cordy to the ruck, Will to rest, smaller forward line. Lock it into the f50

[Mofra]

Interesting stat on the last 15 weeks - we are the only side in the competition to have lost every second half.
GWS & GCS have won 2 each, Port have won 7.

[bornadog]

Interesting stat on the last 15 weeks - we are the only side in the competition to have lost every second half.
GWS & GCS have won 2 each, Port have won 7.

Confirms what I have said we are the worst side in the competition.

[Maddog37]

Confirms what I have said we are the worst side in the competition.

Congratulations BAD!

Should we get a trophy minted to commemorate your football acumen?:rolleyes:

[Ghost Dog]

Not the worst side in the first quarter! ^_^

[Sockeye Salmon]

At Quarter time, Kirk talked to a Bulldog official. He asked him if he was happy with the lead. The official replied ' just wait until after half time'. And sure enough, we caved in. If our lack of match fitness is so well known ( and broadcast to all ) then why don't we come up with some strategies to counter it?

1. Hold up the ball more in the second half to allow people to get their breath back. Not for 10 minutes, but just short, 1 minute intervals.
2, Cooney cannot be the sub. We need an endurance runner who can fill multiple roles.
3. After half time, Cordy to the ruck, Will to rest, smaller forward line. Lock it into the f50

Surely it's better to have the endurance runner on from the start and sub in/out players who don't have the fitness to play the whole game, like Cooney, perhaps?

[Mofra]

Surely it's better to have the endurance runner on from the start and sub in/out players who don't have the fitness to play the whole game, like Cooney, perhaps?
I'd prefer some sort of X factor to energise the side when he comes on (a second Dahlhaus would be perfect).

[Eastdog]

Not the worst side in the first quarter! ^_^

Our starts to matches actually have been quite good. It's frustrating that we can't hold on too our good starts and let the other team back in.

[Ghost Dog]

Surely it's better to have the endurance runner on from the start and sub in/out players who don't have the fitness to play the whole game, like Cooney, perhaps?

You make a good point. But are we going to need to ask more of our sub than other clubs, in terms of time on the field? that's my point but I take yours.

[Twodogs]

I'd prefer some sort of X factor to energise the side when he comes on (a second Dahlhaus would be perfect).


A second Dalhaus would be good. Half a dozen Dalhaus's would be perfect.

[bornadog]

Congratulations BAD!

Should we get a trophy minted to commemorate your football acumen?:rolleyes:

Why such a smart arse comment?

[Sockeye Salmon]

I'd prefer some sort of X factor to energise the side when he comes on (a second Dahlhaus would be perfect).

If we had another Dahlhaus I wouldn't be wasting him as the sub either!

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

That first quarter is where we want to be the hard part is replicating that for 4 quarters. I guess with time the younger players will be able to run out games. Despite being a blow out I was more upbeat after the game, there were some good passages of play even after we lost our legs. It'll take time but we'll get there.

Confidence has a lot to do with it as well. The heads dropped when Sydney hit the front in the 2nd quarter and it was downhill after that. That's going to be a tricky hurdle to overcome now as well.

Our dominance in the midfield in the first quarter was a major factor in our early dominance, where Minson, Griffen and Smith were outstanding. Once the Sydney Swans took control in this department it was game over with Minson noticeably tiring after half time. Cross Liberatore and Dahlhaus have been big losses resulting in Kennedy, O'Keefe Jack etc taking control.

[Eastdog]

Our dominance in the midfield in the first quarter was a major factor in our early dominance, where Minson, Griffen and Smith were outstanding. Once the Sydney Swans took control in this department it was game over with Minson noticeably tiring after half time. Cross Liberatore and Dahlhaus have been big losses resulting in Kennedy, O'Keefe Jack etc taking control.

That's another factor we have quite a few players injuried or not available. Morris is another that comes to mind.

[Maddog37]

Why such a smart arse comment?

Sorry BAD, it was a bit juvenile.

I just get a touch annoyed with I told you so type statements. I feel it really adds nothing to a forum.

Consider it my personal bugbear.

[bornadog]

Sorry BAD, it was a bit juvenile.

I just get a touch annoyed with I told you so type statements. I feel it really adds nothing to a forum.

Consider it my personal bugbear.

ok, no problems

[LostDoggy]

Our dominance in the midfield in the first quarter was a major factor in our early dominance, where Minson, Griffen and Smith were outstanding. Once the Sydney Swans took control in this department it was game over with Minson noticeably tiring after half time. Cross Liberatore and Dahlhaus have been big losses resulting in Kennedy, O'Keefe Jack etc taking control.

This.

The previous week against Richmond we fell in a hole when Cotchin, Deledio and Martin went into the middle.

In both games we moved the ball quickly early, them had a spurt in the third quarter. It's quite odd how we just stop running from behind and stop providing so many fast leading options. Standstill footy takes over when opposition teams gain the ascendancy. The Swans and Tigers were both excellent in hitting leading targets and quickly transferring the ball from end to end, especially in the second half. We seem powerless to do anything cohesive when the the other team has gained control. It almost looks like we are suddenly playing a different way and can't get control back. We just do not have the answers until endurance and maturity (experience) take over.

But I was impressed with the fact that we did have some good, fluent passages of play after half time, albeit, somewhat briefly and not always ending in a successful outcome….but the green shoots were there and I think there is much to build on next year.

[Maddog37]

Nice post Metal.

[Webby]

Nice to see some common sense applied on this. I commend LongWait and HairyMidget's viewpoint on this subject. A lack of negativity and some foresight. So long as I can see direction and progress for the club, I'm patient enough to wait. Christ, from what I'm reading on this forum, I get the feeling a lot of posters would prefer the club to jab up Cooney's knee, rush Morris back from injury and cover the spread. As no great lover of Essendon, I've taken great delight in their supporters' lack of patience meaning that they've completely mid managed their 5 year premiership plan. Patience is a virtue. Look at Geelong and Hawthorn's approach 8 or 9 years ago. They took the long term view and developed a list capable of premiership footy. Impatience is a killer for footy clubs. Unlike Richmond and Essendon, if nothing else, patience should be our strength. Try to enjoy the build up to our next run at it. Embrace it. It's early days, but we're trying to build something here. Don't focus on ripping it all down before its even had a chance to begin!

[dadsgirl16]

Hear Hear Webby

[Mantis]

Nice to see some common sense applied on this. I commend LongWait and HairyMidget's viewpoint on this subject. A lack of negativity and some foresight. So long as I can see direction and progress for the club, I'm patient enough to wait. Christ, from what I'm reading on this forum, I get the feeling a lot of posters would prefer the club to jab up Cooney's knee, rush Morris back from injury and cover the spread. As no great lover of Essendon, I've taken great delight in their supporters' lack of patience meaning that they've completely mid managed their 5 year premiership plan. Patience is a virtue. Look at Geelong and Hawthorn's approach 8 or 9 years ago. They took the long term view and developed a list capable of premiership footy. Impatience is a killer for footy clubs. Unlike Richmond and Essendon, if nothing else, patience should be our strength. Try to enjoy the build up to our next run at it. Embrace it. It's early days, but we're trying to build something here. Don't focus on ripping it all down before its even had a chance to begin!

Hawthorn would have traded for more 'mature' players than just about anyone else (bar Sydney) to try and fix up some shoddy drafting (Dowler, Thorp, etc..).

You picked the worst possible example with them.

[LostDoggy]

Hawthorn would have traded for more 'mature' players than just about anyone else (bar Sydney) to try and fix up some shoddy drafting (Dowler, Thorp, etc..).

You picked the worst possible example with them.

To me you draft and develop to build your foundation, you trade to fill the gaps. To me you can't do one without the other, hence why I'm not opposed to either form.
You don't think Hawthorne have done this? Yes their numbers maybe lopsided to the trade side, but surely their "foundation" was built off development? So Webby is still right in what he is saying?

[SlimPickens]

Hawthorn would have traded for more 'mature' players than just about anyone else (bar Sydney) to try and fix up some shoddy drafting (Dowler, Thorp, etc..).

You picked the worst possible example with them.

Not sure I can agree mantis. Hawthorn in their last premiership had 3 players which they traded in, one of which was Trent Croad who was previously a Hawthorn person. Brent Guerra and Stewy Dew were hardly the nucleus of a premiership team but filled very important gaps. I'd suggest that side is a prime example of how to develop a premiership team.

[Mofra]

You don't think Hawthorne have done this? Yes their numbers maybe lopsided to the trade side, but surely their "foundation" was built of development? So Webby is still right in what he is saying?
Aside from Dew their premiership was built on a core of Crawford, Franklin, Roughead, Hodge, Bateman, Lewis et al.

Draft for the best and trade to fill in the gaps seems to be the way most premierships are built - Geelong gave up two first rounders for Ottens IIRC, on the way to recycling former Port player Tom Harley into a duel premiership captain and drafting mature agers along the way (Harry Taylor & Pods).

Worth noting Geelong offered a 5 year deal to an inconsistent HFFer as well, turned out pretty well for them in the end ;)

[LongWait]

Hawthorn would have traded for more 'mature' players than just about anyone else (bar Sydney) to try and fix up some shoddy drafting (Dowler, Thorp, etc..).

You picked the worst possible example with them.

Utter garbage. Get your facts right. In 2008 we had traded in more players (6 on the senior list) than Hawthorn (3 on the senior list, including Croad who was originally a Hawk) and so did almost all AFL clubs. Hawthorn also nailed their drafting moreso than most sides in the past 6 to 10 years.

[MrMahatma]

Nothing wrong with trading, in or out. So long as you actually get guys who fill the holes you have - not just trading for the sake of it like we seem to do with the likes of DJ, Vespa etc.

[Webby]

Hawthorn would have traded for more 'mature' players than just about anyone else (bar Sydney) to try and fix up some shoddy drafting (Dowler, Thorp, etc..).

You picked the worst possible example with them.
Worst possible example?? Of the top 19 of Hawthorn's 2008 premiership season B&F count, only one player (Brent Guerra) was not drafted straight off the vine by the Hawks and developed by the club!

So how Hawthorn is the 'worst possible example' for my point is beyond me!

Hawthorn FC 2008 B&F count:
1. Buddy Franklin
2. Sam Mitchell
3. Luke Hodge
4. Brad Sewell
5. Jordan Lewis
6. Jarryd Roughead
7. Chance Bateman
8. Brent Guerrra
9. Grant Birchall
10. Mark Williams
11. Cyril Rioli
12. Shane Crawford
13. Campbell Brown
14. Michael Osborne
15. Rick Ladson
16. Clinton Young
17. Xavier Ellis
18 Jarryd Morton
19. Travis Tuck

Before you mention Dew, please note tha BOTH he and Guerra were picked up for NOTHING. They were free, gratis, on the house. Nothing was traded for them and Clarkson had coached them as an assistant at Port... (A bit like what McCartney has done with Tom Campbell). Please also note that for the FIVE years between 2002 and 2006, Hawthorn missed finals. For three of those five, they finished bottom three. During this period, they traded Croad and Rawlings (to some bunch of dills!) for draft picks. During that time, they drafted the core of the list above... Five long, painful, but in hindsight, GREAT years for the Hawthorn Footy Club. As I say, patience is a virtue! Chin up FFS!!

[Sedat]

Hawthorn have developed and drafted well from within but the difference between Hawthorm and the Bulldogs circa 2008-2010 was ultimately Dew. When all is said and done, Dew's 20 minute cameo got Hawthorn their only premiership with this group.

[Mofra]

Since that time the Harks have traded pretty well - Josh Gibson has been handy, ditto Hale, Gunstan looks good and they managed picks for surplus types (McGlynn & Kennedy to Swans).

They did fluff a few first rounders too so they are a solid basis for comparison

[G-Mo77]

They did fluff a few first rounders too so they are a solid basis for comparison

The ones they got for Hay and Thompson? If it was it might be a little karma. The police should have been called when those deals went through.

[Greystache]

The ones they got for Hay and Thompson? If it was it might be a little karma. The police should have been called when those deals went through.

Not quite, they got a first round draft pick for Hay in 2005 but it was pick 18 (Max Bailey)

Thompson was traded in 2004 for pick 10 (on traded for Bo Nixon) and pick 26 (Matt Little)

So in the end they didn't win out of their dodgy dealing, with Bailey being the best and having produced very little.

They did however in 2005 get pick 14 (Grant Birchall) from Port Adelaide for Nathan Lonie. that has Peter Rohde written all over it.

[LostDoggy]

Hawthorn have developed and drafted well from within but the difference between Hawthorm and the Bulldogs circa 2008-2010 was ultimately Dew. When all is said and done, Dew's 20 minute cameo got Hawthorn their only premiership with this group.

That's play ground talk.
They still had to get there and it was more than Dew who did that.

If a midfield busts it's arse to get a ball to a guy all alone in the goal square, you don't run and pat the goal scorer on the back.

Yes Dew's 20mins put them in the box seat in that GF, but a premiership starts well before that.

[Webby]

Hawthorn have developed and drafted well from within but the difference between Hawthorm and the Bulldogs circa 2008-2010 was ultimately Dew. When all is said and done, Dew's 20 minute cameo got Hawthorn their only premiership with this group.
Well.... Hawthorn drafted Dew post 2007 when they were poised to challenge. Right on the cusp.... and they were poised to challenge because of Mitchell, Hodge, Riolli, Lewis, Bateman, Franklin, Roughead etc. Christ, the had climbed from 2nd last in '04 and 3rd
last in '05 to have a genuine flag shot by the time Dew was plucked. Dew had a good game on the big day, granted (although Hodge's game was better), but without the basis of all the home grown draftees above, Dew would've been just another fat bloke struggling in a mid table side. So it bugs me when people say "Stewie Dew = drafting 30 year old fat blokes is the way to go!"

Believe me, Hawthorn didn't climb from 2nd last in '04 to Premiers in '08 by drafting a raft of recycled players. Dew was the grain of sugar on top of the cherry, on top of the icing on the cake!

[LongWait]

Well.... Hawthorn drafted Dew post 2007 when they were poised to challenge. Right on the cusp.... and they were poised to challenge because of Mitchell, Hodge, Riolli, Lewis, Bateman, Franklin, Roughead etc. Christ, the had climbed from 2nd last in '04 and 3rd
last in '05 to have a genuine flag shot by the time Dew was plucked. Dew had a good game on the big day, granted (although Hodge's game was better), but without the basis of all the home grown draftees above, Dew would've been just another fat bloke struggling in a mid table side. So it bugs me when people say "Stewie Dew = drafting 30 year old fat blokes is the way to go!"

Believe me, Hawthorn didn't climb from 2nd last in '04 to Premiers in '08 by drafting a raft of recycled players. Dew was the grain of sugar on top of the cherry, on top of the icing on the cake!

Agree completely. And I also agree that Hawthorn from 2003 to 2008 are the blueprint for what we have to do.

[Webby]

Agree completely. And I also agree that Hawthorn from 2003 to 2008 are the blueprint for what we have to do.
I only joined Woof a few weeks back and I'm surprised to see how many sad sacks there are on the forum. People seem to genuinely think that McCartney should be waiving some kind of magic wand and have a bunch of 18 year olds suddenly out-muscling 25 year olds. Do people honestly think Wallis, Liberatore, Smith, Cordy etc will not be far better players at 25 than they are today? Geez, Brad Johnson used to get knocked off the ball and struggled to run out games in his early career BECAUSE HE WAS A KID!... Point is, you turn 19 the year after you turn 18. You dont turn 25! in order to get a 25 year old champion (as Johnno became) you have to wait! McCartney does not have a magic fast forward button! Fair enough this has been a tough year, but we'll have 10-15 players who will almost certainly be better for this year's experience. They'll know exactly what they need to work on over the summer. Next year this forum will probably have a page discussing last quarter fade outs, rather than 2nd half ones... but eventually even the sad sacks might just lighten up when this group matures. Point is, it'll take a couple more years:

[SlimPickens]

I only joined Woof a few weeks back and I'm surprised to see how many sad sacks there are on the forum. People seem to genuinely think that McCartney should be waiving some kind of magic wand and have a bunch of 18 year olds suddenly out-muscling 25 year olds. Do people honestly think Wallis, Liberatore, Smith, Cordy etc will not be far better players at 25 than they are today? Geez, Brad Johnson used to get knocked off the ball and struggled to run out games in his early career BECAUSE HE WAS A KID!... Point is, you turn 19 the year after you turn 18. You dont turn 25! in order to get a 25 year old champion (as Johnno became) you have to wait! McCartney does not have a magic fast forward button! Fair enough this has been a tough year, but we'll have 10-15 players who will almost certainly be better for this year's experience. They'll know exactly what they need to work on over the summer. Next year this forum will probably have a page discussing last quarter fade outs, rather than 2nd half ones... but eventually even the sad sacks might just lighten up when this group matures. Point is, it'll take a couple more years:


Hey enough of this logic and common sense stuff that'll get you nowhere around here ;)

[bornadog]

I only joined Woof a few weeks back and I'm surprised to see how many sad sacks there are on the forum.

I am no sure what you expected, a bunch of posters jumping for joy and saying how everything is going so well? We are all very passionate about our team and wanting success and its looking like a long way off.

Most of those so called sad sacks are very worried about how the MC is going about developing this team, playing players that are really not up to it (eg DJ), playing three ruckman on the ground, all be it not in rucking roles (Cordy and Roughead), trying to make outside players inside as well (Tutt, Sherman), not being able to at least kick some goals?

We all understand we are in a rebuild, redevelopment, refresh stage, but we don't want to see our second halves of games as total capitulations as they have been, and not even with a bit of bulldog fight. I haven't seen anything like this since the days of Royce Hart.

Not wanting to sound like an old fart, but I have never seen my team in a grand final (over 50 years), let alone a premiership, so I think I am entitled to be a sad sack.

You can post what you want and I will respect your view, but please don't get upset if I or others post negative comments, because frankly until we start winning, or at least showing some fight, we will have an opinion on how we can improve and what we think the MC should be doing, after all this is a discussion forum.

A far as Macca goes, I will give him to mid next year to see if we have shown some improvement over 2012, as this year we have gone backwards compared to last.

[Webby]

I am no sure what you expected, a bunch of posters jumping for joy and saying how everything is going so well? We are all very passionate about our team and wanting success and its looking like a long way off.

Most of those so called sad sacks are very worried about how the MC is going about developing this team, playing players that are really not up to it (eg DJ), playing three ruckman on the ground, all be it not in rucking roles (Cordy and Roughead), trying to make outside players inside as well (Tutt, Sherman), not being able to at least kick some goals?

We all understand we are in a rebuild, redevelopment, refresh stage, but we don't want to see our second halves of games as total capitulations as they have been, and not even with a bit of bulldog fight. I haven't seen anything like this since the days of Royce Hart.

Not wanting to sound like an old fart, but I have never seen my team in a grand final (over 50 years), let alone a premiership, so I think I am entitled to be a sad sack.

You can post what you want and I will respect your view, but please don't get upset if I or others post negative comments, because frankly until we start winning, or at least showing some fight, we will have an opinion on how we can improve and what we think the MC should be doing, after all this is a discussion forum.

A far as Macca goes, I will give him to mid next year to see if we have shown some improvement over 2012, as this year we have gone backwards compared to last.
I think you misread me if you think I'm upset. You are most entitled to lament all you want. You also seem to be taking my sentiments very personally. I don't think I addressed you specifically, but if you want to claim to title of sad sack spokesman, you are welcome to it. Funnily enough I've never seen my club taste premiership success either. (what a coincidence!)

However I'm realistic enough to to acknowledge that my club drafted poorly between 2004 and 2009. I'm realistic enough to realise that our best draft effort during that period left for GWS. I'm realistic enough to realise that when we sign a coach who is noted primarily as a developer of young players and we activate our priority pick, it's going to be a pure development year! I was geared up for it. I fully expected a tough one, but thought, hey, I'll get to see the future of our club develop. Thats where the expectation sits.

On giving McCartney one more year, I'll bet Hawthorn fans were glad you weren't on their board when Clarkson led them to 3rd bottom in 2005! You can be as negative as you like, it's a Dogs fan's divine right! But over the top negativity has a destructive effect on footy clubs. My OPINION is that it does seem a bit unreasonably over the top at times from some on this forum. The fact that you've replied with such strong thoughts suggests to me that you might acknowledge that you acknowledge that you are a pretty tough marker.... And don't get me wrong, that's fine. I just hope you get something other than stomach ulcers, heart problems and hair loss over the next two years!

[bornadog]

I just hope you get something other than stomach ulcers, heart problems and hair loss over the next two years!

What I do take objection to is turning discussions into something personal like your statement above.

I didn't take any of your other posts as being directed to me or you being upset, I was just giving you my opinion on your reaction to negative posts.

[G-Mo77]

I only joined Woof a few weeks back and I'm surprised to see how many sad sacks there are on the forum. People seem to genuinely think that McCartney should be waiving some kind of magic wand and have a bunch of 18 year olds suddenly out-muscling 25 year olds. Do people honestly think Wallis, Liberatore, Smith, Cordy etc will not be far better players at 25 than they are today? Geez, Brad Johnson used to get knocked off the ball and struggled to run out games in his early career BECAUSE HE WAS A KID!... Point is, you turn 19 the year after you turn 18. You dont turn 25! in order to get a 25 year old champion (as Johnno became) you have to wait! McCartney does not have a magic fast forward button! Fair enough this has been a tough year, but we'll have 10-15 players who will almost certainly be better for this year's experience. They'll know exactly what they need to work on over the summer. Next year this forum will probably have a page discussing last quarter fade outs, rather than 2nd half ones... but eventually even the sad sacks might just lighten up when this group matures. Point is, it'll take a couple more years:

Top post mate. Wish we had you here a lot earlier!!!

[Webby]

What I do take objection to is turning discussions into something personal like your statement above.

I didn't take any of your other posts as being directed to me or you being upset, I was just giving you my opinion on your reaction to negative posts.
Look, if I've inadvertently stumbled onto that fact that you suffer from stomach ulcers, heart problems, hair loss or all of the above and therefore take my comments personally, I apologise unreservedly.

However I assure you my comments were an attempt at an analogy aimed at the broader sad sack fraternity. Not a personalised attack on yourself. In fact, I'm not even sure if I'm apologising to a man, woman, child, short, tall, thick or thin person. So hopefully that demonstrates how 'personally' aimed my comments were aimed at your good self.

[LostDoggy]

Top post mate. Wish we had you here a lot earlier!!!

Yes your right, webby has changed my mind.
This coach is excellent, weekly losses by 80+ are great, treacle slow ball movement can work, no forward structure is the modern way, the 3 ruck strategy bound to work soon, all clubs will be dropping any players that don't crack in and the fact that club has become irrelevant is really a blessing in disguise.

[G-Mo77]

Yes your right, webby has changed my mind.
This coach is excellent, weekly losses by 80+ are great, treacle slow ball movement can work, no forward structure is the modern way, the 3 ruck strategy bound to work soon, all clubs will be dropping any players that don't crack in and the fact that club has become irrelevant is really a blessing in disguise.

We could win every week and you'd still find something to moan about.

[Dogs 24/7]

Yes your right, webby has changed my mind.
This coach is excellent, weekly losses by 80+ are great, treacle slow ball movement can work, no forward structure is the modern way, the 3 ruck strategy bound to work soon, all clubs will be dropping any players that don't crack in and the fact that club has become irrelevant is really a blessing in disguise.

Times have certainty changed but not the sarcasm and bitterness by some.

[LostDoggy]

Sorry, allow me to introduce...
Webby, Chops. Chops, Webby.
You'll get to know and love him like we do.

[LostDoggy]

Yes your right, webby has changed my mind.
This coach is excellent, weekly losses by 80+ are great, treacle slow ball movement can work, no forward structure is the modern way, the 3 ruck strategy bound to work soon, all clubs will be dropping any players that don't crack in and the fact that club has become irrelevant is really a blessing in disguise.

Love your work chops......

[LostDoggy]

We could win every week and you'd still find something to moan about.
Why would I be unhappy if we win every week?

[Webby]

Times have certainty changed but not the sarcasm and bitterness by some.
Okay, sarcasm it is.. Thanks for setting me straight, Chops. McCartney is an idiot. He's stupidly playing Barry Hall, Chris Grant, Simon Beasley and Kelvin Templeton out of position. He's failed to have Wallis, Liberatore, Smith, Howard, Tutt, Pearce, Skinner, Talia, Johanniesen and Jong develop three pre-seasons worth of growth, strength and stamina in order to execute an effective defensive press with fast movement forward transitioning into fast defensive movement backwards.. They should be moving the ball forward faster. because they have the physical capability to transition into defensive mode like a well drilled side at its physical career peak. He's also not trying to address the fact that his group need to develop their physicality, strength and stamina Its McCartney's fault that his list contains so much inexperience. He should have Roughead and Cordy either languishing in the VFL or simply carrying the rucking load between them.. He should magically have plucked more mature bodies out of nowhere without taking at least a season to have a good look at his list he inherited. He should have ordered Cooney's knee to be jabbed up and Morris to be rushed back for the finals. It is also McCartney's fault that our mature aged players like Grant, Hargreaves, Cross, Giansiracusa & Murphy offer such imposing size and strength to protect our younger developing players. Yes, list management over the past eight years is also McCartney's fault. He's on his last warning because he clearly inherited a premiership quality list which is perfectly aged and in its prime. He deserves no benefit of the doubt and should be hung out to dry. We should follow the Essendon model, shaft this outsider and bring in one of our own. He's had his chance and is clearly a dud.... I'm with you... And Hawthorn should've done the same with Clarkson in 2005.

[Redemption97]

Okay, sarcasm it is.. Thanks for setting me straight, Chops. McCartney is an idiot. He's stupidly playing Barry Hall, Chris Grant, Simon Beasley and Kelvin Templeton out of position. He's failed to have Wallis, Liberatore, Smith, Howard, Tutt, Pearce, Skinner, Talia, Johanniesen and Jong develop three pre-seasons worth of growth, strength and stamina in order to execute an effective defensive press with fast movement forward transitioning into fast defensive movement backwards.. They should be moving the ball forward faster. because they have the physical capability to transition into defensive mode like a well drilled side at its physical career peak. He's also not trying to address the fact that his group need to develop their physicality, strength and stamina Its McCartney's fault that his list contains so much inexperience. He should have Roughead and Cordy either languishing in the VFL or simply carrying the rucking load between them.. He should magically have plucked more mature bodies out of nowhere without taking at least a season to have a good look at his list he inherited. He should have ordered Cooney's knee to be jabbed up and Morris to be rushed back for the finals. It is also McCartney's fault that our mature aged players like Grant, Hargreaves, Cross, Giansiracusa & Murphy offer such imposing size and strength to protect our younger developing players. Yes, list management over the past eight years is also McCartney's fault. He's on his last warning because he clearly inherited a premiership quality list which is perfectly aged and in its prime. He deserves no benefit of the doubt and should be hung out to dry. We should follow the Essendon model, shaft this outsider and bring in one of our own. He's had his chance and is clearly a dud.... I'm with you... And Hawthorn should've done the same with Clarkson in 2005.

It's easy to blame the coach Webby that way you don't have to open your eyes and be objective. Let them bask in their ignorant sorrow and love your work by the way! Go dogs!

[Ghost Dog]

Okay, sarcasm it is.. Thanks for setting me straight, Chops. McCartney is an idiot. He's stupidly playing Barry Hall, Chris Grant, Simon Beasley and Kelvin Templeton out of position. He's failed to have Wallis, Liberatore, Smith, Howard, Tutt, Pearce, Skinner, Talia, Johanniesen and Jong develop three pre-seasons worth of growth, strength and stamina in order to execute an effective defensive press with fast movement forward transitioning into fast defensive movement backwards.. They should be moving the ball forward faster. because they have the physical capability to transition into defensive mode like a well drilled side at its physical career peak. He's also not trying to address the fact that his group need to develop their physicality, strength and stamina Its McCartney's fault that his list contains so much inexperience. He should have Roughead and Cordy either languishing in the VFL or simply carrying the rucking load between them.. He should magically have plucked more mature bodies out of nowhere without taking at least a season to have a good look at his list he inherited. He should have ordered Cooney's knee to be jabbed up and Morris to be rushed back for the finals. It is also McCartney's fault that our mature aged players like Grant, Hargreaves, Cross, Giansiracusa & Murphy offer such imposing size and strength to protect our younger developing players. Yes, list management over the past eight years is also McCartney's fault. He's on his last warning because he clearly inherited a premiership quality list which is perfectly aged and in its prime. He deserves no benefit of the doubt and should be hung out to dry. We should follow the Essendon model, shaft this outsider and bring in one of our own. He's had his chance and is clearly a dud.... I'm with you... And Hawthorn should've done the same with Clarkson in 2005.

Pace yourself Webby. :D

[Sockeye Salmon]

Okay, sarcasm it is.. Thanks for setting me straight, Chops. McCartney is an idiot. He's stupidly playing Barry Hall, Chris Grant, Simon Beasley and Kelvin Templeton out of position. He's failed to have Wallis, Liberatore, Smith, Howard, Tutt, Pearce, Skinner, Talia, Johanniesen and Jong develop three pre-seasons worth of growth, strength and stamina in order to execute an effective defensive press with fast movement forward transitioning into fast defensive movement backwards.. They should be moving the ball forward faster. because they have the physical capability to transition into defensive mode like a well drilled side at its physical career peak. He's also not trying to address the fact that his group need to develop their physicality, strength and stamina Its McCartney's fault that his list contains so much inexperience. He should have Roughead and Cordy either languishing in the VFL or simply carrying the rucking load between them.. He should magically have plucked more mature bodies out of nowhere without taking at least a season to have a good look at his list he inherited. He should have ordered Cooney's knee to be jabbed up and Morris to be rushed back for the finals. It is also McCartney's fault that our mature aged players like Grant, Hargreaves, Cross, Giansiracusa & Murphy offer such imposing size and strength to protect our younger developing players. Yes, list management over the past eight years is also McCartney's fault. He's on his last warning because he clearly inherited a premiership quality list which is perfectly aged and in its prime. He deserves no benefit of the doubt and should be hung out to dry. We should follow the Essendon model, shaft this outsider and bring in one of our own. He's had his chance and is clearly a dud.... I'm with you... And Hawthorn should've done the same with Clarkson in 2005.

There might be something valid in all that but I'm buggered if I can be bothered trying to work it out.

How about some paragraphs.

[LostDoggy]

There might be something valid in all that but I'm buggered if I can be bothered trying to work it out.

How about some paragraphs.

Spot on. I fell asleep looking at it.

[Eastdog]

Today's match. Will we put in a good 2nd half and break the drought or just once again fall away. The last few weeks our first halves have been ok.

[Webby]

I'll take the paragraphs suggestion on board. My bad. Though it's a tough gig on the iPhone. Perhaps some drawings would also help to hold interest? ;)

Point was fade outs are inevitable when you've got a core of 19 year olds playing against a core of 26 year olds. The fact that the discussion is 2nd half fade outs and not simply fade outs from the get go, suggests that a lack of maturity (both physically and mentally in executing a game plan) - rather than talent or lack of a game plan, is the problem.

So it is literally a glass half full or half empty discussion! Chops obviously thinks it's half empty.
Anyway, hopefully that's succinct enough and avoids any bouts of narcolepsy from anyone!

[bornadog]

At least I don't miss spell names of our players. By the way who the *!*!*!*! is Hargreaves

[GVGjr]

Okay, sarcasm it is..

Two wrongs won't make it right. Don't let others drag you down.

[LostDoggy]

I'll take the paragraphs suggestion on board. My bad. Though it's a tough gig on the iPhone. Perhaps some drawings would also help to hold interest? ;)
!
Ouch.

[Mantis]

Point was fade outs are inevitable when you've got a core of 19 year olds playing against a core of 26 year olds. The fact that the discussion is 2nd half fade outs and not simply fade outs from the get go, suggests that a lack of maturity (both physically and mentally in executing a game plan) - rather than talent or lack of a game plan, is the problem.



So what was our excuse 4 or 5 weeks ago? Because the kids have really only come into the side in big numbers since then.

[F'scary]

Robust thread !!! - although Webby’s use of aging-related health issues to denigrate someone (BAD) who had identified themselves as being 50+ sucked and the insincere “unreserved apology” sucked even more. I’m sure you are a quality individual but when you post like that you don’t sound like one.

Back on topic, I feel that many commentators have missed the mark with citing fitness as the main cause for the embarrassing 2nd 1/2 fades.

I think G-Mo was on to the real reason: lack of confidence.

What seems to happen every week is that we get our share of the play early. But our inept style - the turnovers, the butchering, the missing of simple set shots - the players invariably lose heart after awhile and mentally throw the towel in.

Also, our labourious style - lots of effort for little scoreboard return - means we spend more energy sooner than our opponents. And there's no scoreboard buffer when they come back, either.

The issue therefore is skills and game plan. While the coaching team definitely deserves one more year, I wouldn't be giving them a 5 year extension based on this season's performance. :cool:

[Webby]

At least I don't miss spell names of our players. By the way who the *!*!*!*! is Hargreaves
A good, constructive point, well made!

For the record, 'Hargraves' is auto spell corrected to 'Hargreaves' thanks to Apple Corporation.

Nice of you to point it out, though. I understand you considered my earlier post a cheap shot, but I guess we can call in 1-all now?!

[soupman]

A good, constructive point, well made!

For the record, 'Hargraves' is auto spell corrected to 'Hargreaves' thanks to Apple Corporation.

Nice of you to point it out, though. I understand you considered my earlier post a cheap shot, but I guess we can call in 1-all now?!

Um, his name is Ryan Hargrave. Not Hargraves.

[Sedat]

Point was fade outs are inevitable when you've got a core of 19 year olds playing against a core of 26 year olds. The fact that the discussion is 2nd half fade outs and not simply fade outs from the get go, suggests that a lack of maturity (both physically and mentally in executing a game plan) - rather than talent or lack of a game plan
We had a similar numbers of youth and experienced players in our team last season. At last count we threw the towel in once last year, against West Coke in Perth. Last year we got zero out of Lake and similarly little output from Cooney. It is disingenuous to suggest that we've commenced the rebuild in earnest this season and use this as justification for our complete and utter non-competitive performances, when we were in a very similar position 12 months ago. BMac has a very strong reputation as a great teacher of young men - I would very much like to see this education reap some benefits on the park posts haste, because I struggle to see anyone on our list show sustained improvement year on year. BMac has time up his sleeve but it is not an infinite resource. This season has been unacceptable on many levels and significant improvement should be demanded in 2013, not hoped for.

[Webby]

We had a similar numbers of youth and experienced players in our team last season. At last count we threw the towel in once last year, against West Coke in Perth. Last year we got zero out of Lake and similarly little output from Cooney. It is disingenuous to suggest that we've commenced the rebuild in earnest this season and use this as justification for our complete and utter non-competitive performances, when we were in a very similar position 12 months ago. BMac has a very strong reputation as a great teacher of young men - I would very much like to see this education reap some benefits on the park posts haste, because I struggle to see anyone on our list show sustained improvement year on year. BMac has time up his sleeve but it is not an infinite resource. This season has been unacceptable on many levels and significant improvement should be demanded in 2013, not hoped for.
Fair enough, but I think it shouldn't be underestimated just what a difference an A grade midfielder like Callan Ward and a gun forward target like Barry Hall makes in making a young walk a hell of a lot taller. Not to mention protecting them and taking a hellof a lot of the physical load.

[Webby]

Um, his name is Ryan Hargrave. Not Hargraves.
Guess i'll have to wear that! I used to have a similar issue with Jimmy Edmond's name.

[Ghost Dog]

We had a similar numbers of youth and experienced players in our team last season. At last count we threw the towel in once last year, against West Coke in Perth. Last year we got zero out of Lake and similarly little output from Cooney. It is disingenuous to suggest that we've commenced the rebuild in earnest this season and use this as justification for our complete and utter non-competitive performances, when we were in a very similar position 12 months ago. BMac has a very strong reputation as a great teacher of young men - I would very much like to see this education reap some benefits on the park posts haste, because I struggle to see anyone on our list show sustained improvement year on year. BMac has time up his sleeve but it is not an infinite resource. This season has been unacceptable on many levels and significant improvement should be demanded in 2013, not hoped for.

Dahlhaus, Cross, Higgins, Lake, Wallis, Libba. All of these guys are better this year than they were last year.

[Eastdog]

We are bucking the trend so far this week as we win that 3rd qtr. Last time we won a quarter was in Round 15.

[LostDoggy]

Can we call the third qtr a fade in?

I believe Webby is on the mark regarding youth as the main factor in our fade outs, secondary would be the the hard working game plan and then thirdly the reward for effort not being shown in the forward line killing the teams confidence. I will worry if it is occurring regularly in the second half of 2013, I will reserve judgement until then. A big preseason is required across the board.

[Sedat]

Dahlhaus, Cross, Higgins, Lake, Wallis, Libba. All of these guys are better this year than they were last year.
Notwithstanding some generous assessments there GD, half a dozen improved players out of a list of 40+ is not something that reads well for BMac. How many players improved from 2004 to 2005, the last time we had a change of coach?

[always right]

Dahlhaus, Cross, Higgins, Lake, Wallis, Libba. All of these guys are better this year than they were last year.

I'd add Minson and Roughy to this list.

[Ghost Dog]

Notwithstanding some generous assessments there GD, half a dozen improved players out of a list of 40+ is not something that reads well for BMac. How many players improved from 2004 to 2005, the last time we had a change of coach?

Sedat, it's the J shaped curve! A short adjustment, a little dip and then upwards! :D Apologies for my unbridled optimism. You have to develop some interesting mental games to stay a supporter.

As AR mentioned, add Minno, Roughy, Grant, Jong, Picken is about on par, Addison, I reckon all of these players are as good or better than they were last year.

[LostDoggy]

We are bucking the trend so far this week as we win that 3rd qtr. Last time we won a quarter was in Round 15.

Do you mean a 3rd quarter? Cause we won a quarter last week.

[Webby]

Notwithstanding some generous assessments there GD, half a dozen improved players out of a list of 40+ is not something that reads well for BMac. How many players improved from 2004 to 2005, the last time we had a change of coach?
When you consider that Ward and Morris were both top 5 in our b&f last season and Barry Hall bagged 55 goals, those are three MIGHTY big holes to fill! I think we've uncovered some really good kids this year, but the three roles above meant they were up against it.

Not just from a scoreboard viewpoint, but it meant each forward had to take the best and second best defender instead of the second and third best, ditto the midfield and so on.

Take 2 out of any club's top 5 b&f count plus their leading goal kicker AND their number 1 ruckman from the previous season and see if they improve. Finally, the comparison with 05 is a bit unfair. I think following up Rohde would've been an easier gig than following Rocket. Plus our list in 05 had a core that was coming into its prime after years of drafting with early picks.

[Eastdog]

Do you mean a 3rd quarter? Cause we won a quarter last week.

Thanks for correcting me HairyMidget sometimes the commentary team can get it wrong. One of the commentators said we play Freo next week and in fact we play Brisbane.

[LostDoggy]

Thanks for correcting me HairyMidget sometimes the commentary team can get it wrong. One of the commentators said we play Freo next week and in fact we play Brisbane.

Not correcting, I'm just asking. I wouldn't have a clue when we last won a 3rd quarter.

[Bulldog Joe]

Thanks for correcting me HairyMidget sometimes the commentary team can get it wrong. One of the commentators said we play Freo next week and in fact we play Brisbane.

Sadly commentary teams including Dwayne Russell are consistently wrong.

[always right]

Sadly commentary teams including Dwayne Russell are consistently wrong.

Today the flog Russell declared that Stephen Wells had plucked Pods in the draft with the pick Geelong got for Djekurra. Ah...no he didn't. Pods was a mature age rookie. How does Dwayne Russell continue to get a commentator gig?

[Webby]

"Webby’s use of aging-related health issues to denigrate someone (BAD) who had identified themselves as being 50+ sucked and the insincere “unreserved apology” sucked even more. I’m sure you are a quality individual but when you post like that you don’t sound like one."

For the record, I referred to stomach ulcers, heart problems and hair loss (as in ripping it out) as a stress related issue and certainly not an aged related dig aimed at BAD. And yes I was a little miffed that i was called up for a personal attack and thus my apology probably was a little half hearted! Or perhaps it just faded out in the second half...

Now that you point out that BAD is elderly, I guess I can join the dots on why he was so personally taken aback.... but I can assure you the question of age did not enter my mind.

My point all along is that an alarming number of people on this forum (or perhaps just the vocal minority) seem to be setting expectations for our current list which are simply too high..... The connotation being that it leads to unnecessary dissatisfaction and stress. I guess somewhere along the line, 2+2 = 5 and I'm somehow throwing stones at the elderly!

Anyway, always nice to be picked up on political correctness. I'm sure you are a quality person too! Thanks for affording me the benefit of the doubt!

[Eastdog]

Not correcting, I'm just asking. I wouldn't have a clue when we last won a 3rd quarter.

In that case we both don't know.

[LostDoggy]

Stop apologising Web.
You haven't said anything wrong. Not sure why the new guy is getting ripped here?

[F'scary]

"Webby’s use of aging-related health issues to denigrate someone (BAD) who had identified themselves as being 50+ sucked and the insincere “unreserved apology” sucked even more. I’m sure you are a quality individual but when you post like that you don’t sound like one."

For the record, I referred to stomach ulcers, heart problems and hair loss (as in ripping it out) as a stress related issue and certainly not an aged related dig aimed at BAD. And yes I was a little miffed that i was called up for a personal attack and thus my apology probably was a little half hearted! Or perhaps it just faded out in the second half...

Now that you point out that BAD is elderly, I guess I can join the dots on why he was so personally taken aback.... but I can assure you the question of age did not enter my mind.

My point all along is that an alarming number of people on this forum (or perhaps just the vocal minority) seem to be setting expectations for our current list which are simply too high..... The connotation being that it leads to unnecessary dissatisfaction and stress. I guess somewhere along the line, 2+2 = 5 and I'm somehow throwing stones at the elderly!

Anyway, always nice to be picked up on political correctness. I'm sure you are a quality person too! Thanks for affording me the benefit of the doubt!

Got you worked out, mate.

[azabob]

Got you worked out, mate.

All I've worked out is that you want to axe 3/4 of the list and Webby would prefer to keep most of list and wait for them to develop as they are showing potential.

[bornadog]

"Webby’s use of aging-related health issues to denigrate someone (BAD) who had identified themselves as being 50+ sucked and the insincere “unreserved apology” sucked even more. I’m sure you are a quality individual but when you post like that you don’t sound like one."

For the record, I referred to stomach ulcers, heart problems and hair loss (as in ripping it out) as a stress related issue and certainly not an aged related dig aimed at BAD. And yes I was a little miffed that i was called up for a personal attack and thus my apology probably was a little half hearted! Or perhaps it just faded out in the second half...

Now that you point out that BAD is elderly, I guess I can join the dots on why he was so personally taken aback.... but I can assure you the question of age did not enter my mind.

My point all along is that an alarming number of people on this forum (or perhaps just the vocal minority) seem to be setting expectations for our current list which are simply too high..... The connotation being that it leads to unnecessary dissatisfaction and stress. I guess somewhere along the line, 2+2 = 5 and I'm somehow throwing stones at the elderly!

Anyway, always nice to be picked up on political correctness. I'm sure you are a quality person too! Thanks for affording me the benefit of the doubt!

Mate don't what your problem is but I am just about sick of your posts. You don't know me and I don't know you. This forum is for discussion and not personal attacks.

So keep your posts about the bulldogs and respect what others write about the team they love.

[bornadog]

Stop apologising Web.
You haven't said anything wrong. Not sure why the new guy is getting ripped here?

Because he has made it personal. Who cares how old I am and what I look like and what my health is about.

[Eastdog]

We have to defend free speech on this forum and allow fellow woofers to have their say on the club and how it's going.

[EasternWest]

Wow. This forum has become a bit of a hotbed of aggression and dissension of late that extends beyond the usual suspects.

Think I might take a bit of a sabbatical.

[G-Mo77]

Stop apologising Web.
You haven't said anything wrong. Not sure why the new guy is getting ripped here?

Agreed, seen worse from regulars on here.

I mean telling someone to get a players #%&-&=, name right and making fun of grammar is more socially acceptable. :)

[Webby]

Because he has made it personal. Who cares how old I am and what I look like and what my health is about.

I suggest you re read my posts, BAD. You accused me of getting personal (which I didn't, but I even apologised as you seemed to take offense). Then your mate chimed in and accused me of being insincere and raised the issue of your age etc. My point all along has precisely been that your age, appearance and whatever was completely irrelevant and had never even entered my mind..!

Anyway, this forum seems a minefield of thin skins and narcissism. It seems more about fragile egos and lynch mobs than the Doggies, so if you're sick of me posting, I'll do the right thing and leave you to it. Enjoy.

[AndrewP6]

In the words of Rodney King, ""Can we all get along?"

[LostDoggy]

Because he has made it personal.
Correct me if I'm wrong but this (below) is how it started.



On giving McCartney one more year, I'll bet Hawthorn fans were glad you weren't on their board when Clarkson led them to 3rd bottom in 2005! You can be as negative as you like, it's a Dogs fan's divine right! But over the top negativity has a destructive effect on footy clubs. My OPINION is that it does seem a bit unreasonably over the top at times from some on this forum. The fact that you've replied with such strong thoughts suggests to me that you might acknowledge that you acknowledge that you are a pretty tough marker.... And don't get me wrong, that's fine. I just hope you get something other than stomach ulcers, heart problems and hair loss over the next two years!
Here Webby points out you are a tough on what you expect from the team and will stress yourself out (hair loss, ulcers etc) if you keep it up, cause it is going to be a long road.
Then you hit him with....

What I do take objection to is turning discussions into something personal like your statement above.

Sorry, but he didn't kick into anything personal.

[bornadog]

Correct me if I'm wrong .

Can we just get back to discussing football.

[LostDoggy]

Can we just get back to discussing football.

Gladly.
You are the one that sent it off track.

BAD you have over 11000 posts on here, that's pretty impressive. Just grain of salt a few things. Webby does (hopefully not did) have some good stuff to input. I personally love hearing it all, good and bad. Football and non football related.

[Sedat]

When you consider that Ward and Morris were both top 5 in our b&f last season and Barry Hall bagged 55 goals, those are three MIGHTY big holes to fill! I think we've uncovered some really good kids this year, but the three roles above meant they were up against it.
Agree with you on both Ward and Morris but Hall offered us bugger-all until junk time last season - he had something like 12 goals up to about Round 14 or so. Also Lake was a complete non-factor in 2011.

BMac deserves a full run at implementing his mantra onto the playing group but I would sincerely hope to see significant improvement on the dross that has been served up from round 10 this year. I'm not talking massive improvements in W/L but I don't want to see us as cannon fodder for the rest of the competition as we've seen for large parts of this season.

[LostDoggy]

BMac deserves a full run at implementing his mantra onto the playing group but I would sincerely hope to see significant improvement on the dross that has been served up from round 10 this year. I'm not talking massive improvements in W/L but I don't want to see us as cannon fodder for the rest of the competition as we've seen for large parts of this season.

Agree with Sedat, I think we all understand that miracles are unlikely, but we need to see that there is some continual improvement to give us hope for the future. Dont mind losing as such, as long as we are fighting it out. Not handling these 10 goal + wallopings very well, especially when we have been good in clearances and contested ball. Skills need a heap of work over summer. We also need to get the defence & forward line settled so they can become a working units again. Its great how one game that we lost by 34 points can give us a rise in optimism.

[bornadog]

Agree with Sedat, I think we all understand that miracles are unlikely, but we need to see that there is some continual improvement to give us hope for the future. Dont mind losing as such, as long as we are fighting it out. Not handling these 10 goal + wallopings very well, especially when we have been good in clearances and contested ball. Skills need a heap of work over summer. We also need to get the defence & forward line settled so they can become a working units again. Its great how one game that we lost by 34 points can give us a rise in optimism.

Couldn't agree more. If we can start to see some improvement next year in the first half, we will all be optimistic about the future.

[Ghost Dog]

Agree with Sedat, I think we all understand that miracles are unlikely, but we need to see that there is some continual improvement to give us hope for the future. Dont mind losing as such, as long as we are fighting it out. Not handling these 10 goal + wallopings very well, especially when we have been good in clearances and contested ball. Skills need a heap of work over summer. We also need to get the defence & forward line settled so they can become a working units again. Its great how one game that we lost by 34 points can give us a rise in optimism.

If you look at the stats, the time in f50 was not far from 50% a piece. was 46, 54% or something or other. Some other stats were pretty pleasing really. That being said they did have some big outs. Then again it was at Skilled stadium. I think we can chalk up a few positives. We give FAR too much respect to Geelong. Wallis admitted as much in the presser. They use their reputation to dictate terms. We have to be more ruthless. Of course you give them respect for their history. But on the field, we have to be prepared to throw all that out.

[Bulldog4life]

Couldn't agree more. If we can start to see some improvement next year in the first half, we will all be optimistic about the future.

Are you sure about that?

[LostDoggy]

Are you sure about that?

Well can it be much worse than it is now?

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

If you look at the stats, the time in f50 was not far from 50% a piece. was 46, 54% or something or other. Some other stats were pretty pleasing really. That being said they did have some big outs. Then again it was at Skilled stadium. I think we can chalk up a few positives. We give FAR too much respect to Geelong. Wallis admitted as much in the presser. They use their reputation to dictate terms. We have to be more ruthless. Of course you give them respect for their history. But on the field, we have to be prepared to throw all that out.

Put Hawkins and Chapman in our team and you might have seen a different result. We have sadly lacked one or two quality forwards all year.

[Bulldog4life]

Well can it be much worse than it is now?

You miss my point.If there is improvement we all won't be optimistic about the future. There are pessimists on here Chops that will always be that way. I read what they said when we were finishing in the top 4.They were pessimistic then. An improvement from where we are now won't change their thinking.

[LostDoggy]

You miss my point.If there is improvement we all won't be optimistic about the future. There are pessimists on here Chops that will always be that way. I read what they said when we were finishing in the top 4.They were pessimistic then. An improvement from where we are now won't change their thinking.

I think you're wrong. If we weren't optimistic about the future we wouldn't be supporting the bulldogs.
If you cant see us achieving much under the current structure, it doesnt mean you are pessimistic about the future, just think it will take longer.

[Ghost Dog]

You miss my point.If there is improvement we all won't be optimistic about the future. There are pessimists on here Chops that will always be that way. I read what they said when we were finishing in the top 4.They were pessimistic then. An improvement from where we are now won't change their thinking.

I got a very long response to a letter I wrote to Simon Garlic about a month back.
It was quite long, and someone ( Jo Parr) had taken the time to write it.
I wrote them a letter of encouragement, saying I thought they were doing many things right, but with some concern about Libba. Was great to get a reply and was quite well worded. Each game we seem to be getting a little better and I reckon in a few years we will be a force to be reckoned with. The overriding message is, stick with it. Sorry, but I think this season was about as good as could have been expected really.

[Bulldog4life]

I think you're wrong. If we weren't optimistic about the future we wouldn't be supporting the bulldogs.
If you cant see us achieving much under the current structure, it does mean you are pessimistic about the future just it will take longer.

You are incredible Chops.

[Bulldog4life]

I got a very long response to a letter I wrote to Simon Garlic about a month back.
It was quite long, and someone ( Jo Parr) had taken the time to write it.
I wrote them a letter of encouragement, saying I thought they were doing many things right, but with some concern about Libba. Was great to get a reply and was quite well worded. Each game we seem to be getting a little better and I reckon in a few years we will be a force to be reckoned with. The overriding message is, stick with it. Sorry, but I think this season was about as good as could have been expected really.

I'm optimistic that will happen Ghost Dog.

[LostDoggy]

You are incredible Chops.

What's the problem?

[bornadog]

Sorry, but I think this season was about as good as could have been expected really.

Can't agree on that. I didn't expect to lose 10 and soon to be 11 games in a row at an average of 55 points. I didn't expect to win many games, but not the capitulation we have seen.

[G-Mo77]

Can't agree on that. I didn't expect to lose 10 and soon to be 11 games in a row at an average of 55 points. I didn't expect to win many games, but not the capitulation we have seen.

We lost 13 games in 2011 and by an average margin of around 40 points so the writing was clearly on the wall for a complete collapse in 2012. We were lucky the bottom half was really weak last year and had a very overrated 9 wins on the board, a pass mark for some.

[jeemak]

I think you're wrong. If we weren't optimistic about the future we wouldn't be supporting the bulldogs.
If you cant see us achieving much under the current structure, it doesnt mean you are pessimistic about the future, just think it will take longer.

Chops, this not a personal attack on you (yeah, I know that's not a great way to start a line of questioning, but trust me) though I'm interested in what you deemed to be the key criteria for us having improved this season, and what you think will be the key criteria in us improving over the next 12 months.

I'm not going to sugar coat our second half fade outs over the last eleven weeks and I also think we were lucky Geelong were in cruise mode in the second half this most recent week.

Considering we've obviously been knackered in second halves since round 11 or so (whether it's due to youth, training programs, or whatever) some of the results have been fairly self explanatory, though not excusable.

So what would you have seen done differently, and what do you see as being required steps over the preseason and first half of next season to provide you with a little faith in the current structure?

You're very passionate, and I like that, though I want to understand why you're so sure we're on a path to failure. :)

[bornadog]

We lost 13 games in 2011 and by an average margin of around 40 points so the writing was clearly on the wall for a complete collapse in 2012. We were lucky the bottom half was really weak last year and had a very overrated 9 wins on the board, a pass mark for some.

I bet if I asked you at the start of the season, you didn't expect 10 goal thumpings week after week.

My expectation was wouldn't win many, maybe more than 5, but I didn't expect the second half fade outs where we hardly saw a goal kicked. Sundays game versus Geelong was where I thought we would be.

Anyway, whats done is done, and I just hope its upwards from here on.

[G-Mo77]

I bet if I asked you at the start of the season, you didn't expect 10 goal thumpings week after week.

Umm yeah I did. Last season we were disgusting and I expected that to continue into 2012. I did expect to improve in the later part of the season though. We're back a lot further than what I thought before the start of the season.

[bornadog]

Umm yeah I did. Last season we were disgusting and I expected that to continue into 2012. I did expect to improve in the later part of the season though. We're back a lot further than what I thought before the start of the season.

The positives for the year are the young players. They have gained valuable experience and will only get better as their bodies grow and they get more experience at AFL level.

We have to be patient with the taller players as we know they take longer to mature.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

The positives for the year are the young players. They have gained valuable experience and will only get better as their bodies grow and they get more experience at AFL level.

We have to be patient with the taller players as we know they take longer to mature.

We are still desperately short of one or even two key forwards and there has been little to suggest that any will emerge from our current list, which includes Jones and Cordy.

[Bulldog4life]

What's the problem?

No problem. You are unique. Take it as a compliment.:)

[Mofra]

We are still desperately short of one or even two key forwards and there has been little to suggest that any will emerge from our current list, which includes Jones and Cordy.
I'm not writing either off yet, but 2013 seems a bit of a stretch for either to really grab their place in the side with any force.

[LostDoggy]

What we are desperately short of is endurance and maturity. We sometimes lack the endurance to hunt in numbers and get across the ground to help our team mates when we don't have the ball. We sometimes lack the physical strength to hold tackles or to withstand pressure on our bodies, but most of all we seem to lack the split second instinct to do it the best way. But experienced oppositions know how to do it. And when they get on top we find it hard to compete. We become reactive rather than the aggressor.

What we are trying to learn is to keep contesting and to stay in the game. Not always easy when you are young and have so much to learn, and can be intimidated by losing the contest. You only have to be a second slower to react and your opposing player has gone.

So it's when we don't have the ball that is a problem as much as when do have it (poor kicking), because we are not yet at an age where we can work hard enough for long enough to win games. This can be fixed with time and practice and through the introduction of more players who can genuinely compete for a spot in the senior side.

But maturity and experience do not happen overnight.

I think Macca has done an excellent job so far in stripping back the style of play to the basics and re-educating, of giving so many younger players blocks of games, of playing them on good players in the opposition, of concentrating on contested footy first, and of going with developing the talent we have rather than trading lots in. I hope he continues this way until we have a group of players who, together, know each other and know instinctively what each will do in any situation.

I can see us developing a really potent midfield in the future. But it may take several years. And with Wallis, we have a possible leader who appears to be a very clear headed and determined young man who already is soaking up all he can learn.

[LostDoggy]

So what would you have seen done differently, and what do you see as being required steps over the preseason and first half of next season to provide you with a little faith in the current structure?

You're very passionate, and I like that, though I want to understand why you're so sure we're on a path to failure. :)
Sorry jeemak already gone through this.
Just quickly
Differently - no game plan, no forward line, no speed with or without the ball, poor selections, little improvement in many players, continual thrashings, etc

Required steps for next year - improves in all those areas above.

[bornadog]

Sorry jeemak already gone through this.
Just quickly
Differently - no game plan, no forward line, no speed with or without the ball, poor selections, little improvement in many players, continual thrashings, etc

Required steps for next year - improves in all those areas above.

But other than that we are going well:D

[jeemak]

Sorry jeemak already gone through this.
Just quickly
Differently - no game plan, no forward line, no speed with or without the ball, poor selections, little improvement in many players, continual thrashings, etc

Required steps for next year - improves in all those areas above.

Thanks Chops.

I suppose I'll have to trawl through your older posts if I want to find the detail backing up the above.

[Maddog37]

Sorry jeemak already gone through this.
Just quickly
Differently - no game plan, no forward line, no speed with or without the ball, poor selections, little improvement in many players, continual thrashings, etc

Required steps for next year - improves in all those areas above.

Do you see anything that has improved this year Chops?


Genuine question.

[LostDoggy]

Do you see anything that has improved this year Chops?


Genuine question.

Wallis and Minson but they have more to do with just playing than the coaching department.

[Eastdog]

This happened with us today and I hope its not more commonplace this year.

[chef]

It was a game of two halves. I'm sure we'll focus on what we did in the first half and get back to doing it over the whole game again. The sky isn't falling.

[ReLoad]

please correct me if im wrong, but we have not won a last quarter all year?

[chef]

please correct me if im wrong, but we have not won a last quarter all year?

Kids struggling to run out games. A few more preseasons are needed.

[comrade]

This happened with us today and I hope its not more commonplace this year.

If you don't expect a 2nd half fade out to occur, especially when we cop a few injuries, you're going to be very disappointed.

To paraphrase Shakespeare: 'Expectation is the root of all heartache'.

[Ozza]

please correct me if im wrong, but we have not won a last quarter all year?

Only the WCE game.

[Maddog37]

We won the last ten minutes against Sydney.