Elevate Pups to the Leadership group now?

[Ghost Dog]

I'm preparing for a tirade on this one. Anyway, take a risk and give it meaning I say.

Pro's

Why wait until Cooney, Murph or Gia ( too late! ) get injured?
Let the pups gain experience and watch the leadership team in action, getting the experience that comes from that now.

Mitch & Dahlhaus have tried their guts out for two seasons. They have even outperformed certain senior players. Would make a good news story and punctuate the end of the season. Some will say its a bit early, but these kids have what it takes and have shown great leadership on the field.

Yes yes, a tad early, buuuut, If we elevate them now, just one game left, then that's another 7 months before they will be back in action. Will give them a taste and some motivation for pre-season, coming into 2013. A reward as well for great effort.

Also, sometimes you have to throw people into the deep end, if you know they can handle it, why be cagey? We need to start taking some calculated risks. GWS and GC are going to be on the rise around the time we will be ready for a tilt. Let our youngsters measure themselves against the best kids in the comp.


Against

Too much pressure too early?
Have they done enough to deserve it?

[AndrewP6]

Against

Too much pressure too early?
Have they done enough to deserve it?

This sums it up for mine. Hasn't worked at Melbourne, can't see it working at Whitten Oval.

[Ghost Dog]

This sums it up for mine. Hasn't worked at Melbourne, can't see it working at Whitten Oval.

Zac Smith: GCsuns, 22 years of age

[AndrewP6]

I'm going hunting to find out who else has kids on their leadership group.

Go for it, it's the wrong move IMO.

[Ghost Dog]

Selwood was in the leadership group at the age of 22, according to one site.
Jarryd Blair is 22.
Dayne Beams is 22.
Interestingly, Bryce Gibbs was in the leadership group at the age of 19

Wiki: Gibbs was named in Carlton's leadership group for the 2007 AFL season without having played a single AFL match, which is the first time in history this has happened.

Bad idea? in your view, ok, but it can't be said it hasn't worked at other clubs. Plenty of evidence to discount that.

Voss was captain at 21.....

[AndrewP6]

Zac Smith: GCsuns, 22 years of age

So? I didn't say it couldn't be done.

[AndrewP6]

Selwood was in the leadership group at the age of 22, according to one site.
Jarryd Blair is 22.
Dayne Beams is 22.
Interestingly, Bryce Gibbs was in the leadership group at the age of 19

That's all very interesting. I stand by my comment, it's not a good idea.


Bad idea? in your view, ok, but it can't be said it hasn't worked at other clubs. Plenty of evidence to discount that.

I didn't say that. I said it hasn't worked at Melbourne.

[Mofra]

A player doesn't need to be in the leadership group to show leadership - leadership is displayed irrespective of title.

Influencing others due to position or inferred authority is command, not leadership.

[GVGjr]

A player doesn't need to be in the leadership group to show leadership - leadership is displayed irrespective of title.

Influencing others due to position or inferred authority is command, not leadership.

Excellent points. Out of the youngsters I have heard talk I rate Wallis and Roughead as guys with leadership skills.
Given the recent events with Liberatore I'm not sure many of them are ready to be given leadership roles at the moment.

[Ghost Dog]

A player doesn't need to be in the leadership group to show leadership - leadership is displayed irrespective of title.

Influencing others due to position or inferred authority is command, not leadership.

It's about giving them access to the circle, to improve their learning.
When a young player stuffs up, and the leadership group has to decide the punisment, is this not leading through position?

[Ghost Dog]

I didn't say that. I said it hasn't worked at Melbourne.


This sums it up for mine. Hasn't worked at Melbourne (A) , can't see it working at Whitten Oval ( B ) .


yes you did. You pointed to Melbourne, and because it has not worked there, indicated it would not work with us. A = B
I could equally point to other clubs where it has worked, and justify why it would work with us.
I don't see any logic to suggest it would not be a good idea so far. Give me one good reason why Mitch Wallis shouldn't be in our leadership group? Can think of more positives than negatives.

[AndrewP6]

You pointed to Melbourne, and because it has not worked there, indicated it would not work with us. I could equally point to other clubs where it has worked, and justify why it would work with us. I don't see any logic in your argument.
Give me one good reason why Mitch Wallis shouldn't be in our leadership group?

It was just an opinion. For every debate, you can find "for" and "against" arguments, in the end you give one side more weight or the other (or, on occasion, sit on the fence). If they go down the path of young 'uns in the leadership group, it'll be a mistake IMO.

If you're so keen for logic, I point to the case of Bulldogs v Liberatore, Jr. No, not all the Dogs are in the same boat, but that'd be enough for me to say no to the idea.

[Ghost Dog]

It was just an opinion. For every debate, you can find "for" and "against" arguments, in the end you give one side more weight or the other (or, on occasion, sit on the fence). If they go down the path of young 'uns in the leadership group, it'll be a mistake IMO.

Ok. well you are in education, so I understand you have a good grasp of these things, working with young people. I'm interested in your view. Why not expand it a bit. Why would it be a mistake?

[AndrewP6]

Ok. well you are a teacher, so I understand you have a good grasp of these things, working with young people. I'm interested in your view. Why not expand it a bit. Why would it be a mistake?

Because, IMO, and there's no research to back it up, just my opinion, players have to put some runs on the board in order to officially lead a football club. Young folks make too many mistakes, by virtue of being young, and being in that group is a big increase in responsibility. I think they need time in the system, around the club, learning from the senior players (who are hopefully doing the right thing) and finding their own niche within the side - or even simply cementing their spot. I don't believe it would be a good idea to put undue pressure on blokes so early into their careers.

[Ghost Dog]

Because, IMO, and there's no research to back it up, just my opinion, players have to put some runs on the board in order to officially lead a football club. Young folks make too many mistakes, by virtue of being young, and being in that group is a big increase in responsibility. I think they need time in the system, around the club, learning from the senior players (who are hopefully doing the right thing) and finding their own niche within the side - or even simply cementing their spot. I don't believe it would be a good idea to put undue pressure on blokes so early into their careers.

Fair enough. These are really good points.
But Mitch Wallis. Exception to the rule?
Captain at two other levels, pretty much already cemented his spot in our team....
He's Gold.

[AndrewP6]

Fair enough. These are really good points.
But Mitch Wallis. Exception to the rule?
Captain at two other levels, pretty much already cemented his spot in our team....
He's Gold.

He's good, but IMO hasn't fully earnt his stripes. Future leader yes (and maybe even captain one day) but not leadership material...yet.

[LostDoggy]

This all obviously hinges off them actually wanting to be a leader at this point in time.

You have to think of the players too, how would people like Minson, Sherman, picken, Dickson, etc. react to someone like Dahlhaus leading them?

[Ghost Dog]

This all obviously hinges off them actually wanting to be a leader at this point in time.

You have to think of the players too, how would people like Minson, Sherman, picken, Dickson, etc. react to someone like Dahlhaus leading them?

Yes, interesting you used Dahl and not Wallis there.
Anyway, Sherman could especially for one could benefit from his example.
I think each of these players above could appreciate that the club is rebuilding for the future. If it was put to them that a younger player like Wallis was doing an 'apprentiship' in the leadership group I don't think any of them would have a problem.

You are right though, would Wallis say yes if he was asked?

[MrMahatma]

This all obviously hinges off them actually wanting to be a leader at this point in time.

You have to think of the players too, how would people like Minson, Sherman, picken, Dickson, etc. react to someone like Dahlhaus leading them?
My last boss was 4 yrs younger than me. He was a gun and I've learnt more from him than anyone else.

If they're good enough, and ready, age is irrelevant.

Doesn't mean we have anyone in the squad who fits the bill though.

[bornadog]

My last boss was 4 yrs younger than me. He was a gun and I've learnt more from him than anyone else.

If they're good enough, and ready, age is irrelevant.

Doesn't mean we have anyone in the squad who fits the bill though.

But I presume he isnot an 18 year old kid

[LostDoggy]

Dahl is captain material, provides spark, passion and desire, the fans love him and he will be a bulldog legend. When Boyd stands aside it is him all the way I believe.

[Mofra]

Fair enough. These are really good points.
But Mitch Wallis. Exception to the rule?
Captain at two other levels, pretty much already cemented his spot in our team....
He's Gold.
He may well be the exception. 2013 may be a little too early, but he's best 22 and 2014 he is probably odds on to be elevated in some capacity (or at least act like a leader on field). That'd make him 21 or 22?

[G-Mo77]

GD brought up some good examples with Selwood and Beams, both their games went up another level. Some players are natural leaders, some aren't. If they're the right person I'd have no problems with putting them up into the group.

I still think at least wait another year for some of the players mentioned though.

[LostDoggy]

Yes, interesting you used Dahl and not Wallis there.
Anyway, Sherman could especially for one could benefit from his example.
I think each of these players above could appreciate that the club is rebuilding for the future. If it was put to them that a younger player like Wallis was doing an 'apprentiship' in the leadership group I don't think any of them would have a problem.

You are right though, would Wallis say yes if he was asked?

Am I that transparent? :D
It's very hard not to pigeonhole Wallis into a leader / captain role.

Everyone is a pro, they will take any decision on board. My post I guess is giving you another thing for your 'con' list. Will this type of situation introduce a form of uncomfortability that our organization isn't capable of dealing with?

[Ghost Dog]

Am I that transparent? :D
It's very hard not to pidgin hole Wallis into a leader / captain role.

Everyone is a pro, they will take any decision on board. My post I guess is giving you another thing for your 'con' list. Will this type of situation introduce a form of uncomfortability that our organization isn't capable of dealing with?

pidgin haha... Me lik'im dogbull fella Wally wally Laaaa.....

Ah definitely and as much as people find 'new' attractive, you have to respect tradition, process and the way that the club has survived by doing the right things. I get that.
Westernbulldogs however have traditionally been pulled out of the poo by it's supporter base and strong local ties. Like a lot of things blue collar ( unions, strong labor identities, traditional family units ) things are starting to wear a bit thin. Clubs only survive by being close to their memberships. Let's not forget that.
Once there was only two choices really. Footy or Cricket. Now there are a plethora. Plus X-box to compete with.
TIMES HAVE CHANGED.....
If we want more young people to be inspired by our club, we need younger leaders as well, and constantly find ways of engaging young supporters ( like the Dahlhaus clubhouse, good work )
Tough times for the club. I hope they are prepared to look outside the box, but close to the grass roots, so to speak.

[bornadog]

Dahl is captain material, provides spark, passion and desire, the fans love him and he will be a bulldog legend. When Boyd stands aside it is him all the way I believe.

Yes in about 5 or 6 years time.

[LostDoggy]

The biggest danger is giving the impression that the leadership group is selected for political reasons such as the ones given above. If Wallis, Dahlhaus, anybody really, shows the necessary prerequisites and has the respect of the playing group and club as a whole, then fine, but simply adding some youth into the leadership group to excite the fans is a huge mistake.

I would also never point to Carlton as a healthy club culture to emulate. When I look at that club, believe it or not I'm happy we don't have 16 flags.

[Ghost Dog]

The biggest danger is giving the impression that the leadership group is selected for political reasons such as the ones given above. If Wallis, Dahlhaus, anybody really, shows the necessary prerequisites and has the respect of the playing group and club as a whole, then fine, but simply adding some youth into the leadership group to excite the fans is a huge mistake.

I would also never point to Carlton as a healthy club culture to emulate. When I look at that club, believe it or not I'm happy we don't have 16 flags.

Look at it in another year then?
And who wants to emulate Carlton. They cheat their pants off and still can't win!!! Go Suns!

[LostDoggy]

pidgin haha... Me lik'im dogbull fella Wally wally Laaaa.....


I didn't have a clue what you were on about here. Got it now, fixed it up.

[KT31]

I didn't have a clue what you were on about here. Got it now, fixed it up.

I din't see anything wrong with your Pidgin English.:D

[Go_Dogs]

Does the playing group still have a big say in the vote as to who gets in? If so, wouldn't it be up to the group to determine when someone like Wallis may be ready?

I certainly see Wallis as a future leader of the club.

I guess whether a young player gets an opportunity may depend on how confident we are some of our older blokes currently in the leadership group will play a big part on field in 2013? For example, a leadership group of Boyd, Cross, Griffen, Higgins and Wallis could be a good mix - it might be that Murphy and Gia don't get a run as they should concentrate on extracting the most from themselves next year.

Will be interesting to see what happens over summer.

[jeemak]

I'd be happy to see the leadership group from the outset be stripped back for 2013 from a public or formal perspective, with Boyd fulfilling the captaincy role once again, and Murphy as well as one of Higgins/Giansiracusa/Cross as his deputy.

With this structure set in place from the begining of the preseason let all comers stake their claims and prove that if either of the above fall over they can be relied upon to fulfill the void left by them.

If none of the younger players prove to be capable, fitness permitting we have Higgins, Williams, Giansiracusa, Morris, Lake, Minson and Cooney to fill the gap as required. Each of these guys have the capability to demonstrate what is required to be an AFL footballer through different skill sets (some more obvious than others).

We're in a development year next year from a playing perspective, it mightn't be the worst time to allow our future leaders to put themselves forward through a competitive process and show the potential leadership qualities they possess.

[LongWait]

I don't see why we wouldn't consider Wallis for the leadership group next year. He's just signed a two year extension and has had a stellar second year. He was the player sitting next to the coach at this weeks' presser. He speaks well and with maturity and assurance. All the outward signs I've seen so far support the hype about him being a quality kid with leadership stamped all over him.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I don't see why we wouldn't consider Wallis for the leadership group next year. He's just signed a two year extension and has had a stellar second year. He was the player sitting next to the coach at this weeks' presser. He speaks well and with maturity and assurance. All the outward signs I've seen so far support the hype about him being a quality kid with leadership stamped all over him.

Give Wallis more time to really feel confident at senior level before elevating him into the leadership group. We have enough senior leadership in our ranks without pushing Wallis too early. I would prefer to see him become an elite player before rushing the process.

[LostDoggy]

Give Wallis more time to really feel confident at senior level before elevating him into the leadership group. We have enough senior leadership in our ranks without pushing Wallis too early. I would prefer to see him become an elite player before rushing the process.

Without knowing him, maybe the coaches/players think that his type of personality may enable him to become an elite player by adding the extra responsibility. Whatever the outcome, glad he signed for another 2 years.

[LostDoggy]

A few of our younger guys will make great leaders but next year is too soon. Wallis may be ready for 2014.

If Minson stays around he should move into the group. Griffey should also move into the leadership group.

The way I see the leadership group 2013...

Boyd Captain
Murphy/Gia vice
Griff vice if the above two are out
Minson

2014
Boyd Captain
Griff vice
Minson
Wallis

2015
Wallis captain
Griff vice
Libba
Dahl
Smith

Obviously dependent on multiple factors.

Edit:
2016: Flag!