Quality Talls

[Go_Dogs]

This is a subject that hasn't sat well with us for quite a few years now, due to our horrible lack of quality talls. As our list currently stands, it's looking the best it has for years.

We now have Harris who is playing fantastic football, and was unlucky not to be included in the AA squad for mine. He'll continue to improve, and if not nailing down a key defensive post, could perhaps eventually become a key forward.

We also have Williams, who has lived up to the hype this year, once he's finally been able to get on the park and play some consecutive football matches for a good duration. He's tall, has a great frame, very athletic, and his skills which were his real question mark, have proven to be satisfactory at this stage, and will no doubt continue to improve.

Everitt had a fantastic first season, he now needs to back it up a few times and continue to build his strength and body size. He's arguably the most composed youngster I've seen since Griffen, and has a lot of similar attributes, whilst being a tall. He's got pace, excellent foot skills and penetration, and good football smarts. He attacks the contest and wins it more often than not too.

Between these three we have a combined, 20+ years of quality tall action, which is pleasing.

We also have a few others who should be aiming to get to the 'quality tall' level, rather than just serviceable.

Minson is the forgotten man here, the form he showed at such a young age was surely no fluke. If he can get his fitness right, and have a good run with injuries, he'll play a big part in our plans next season. He's aggressive and throws his weight around the clearance. As much as he's been disregarded as an option up forward to this stage, he has at times shown the ability to go forward string a few marks and kick a few goals. This needs to continue to improve as if he wishes to make the quality tall title as a ruck, he needs more strings to his bow than aggressive centre square ruck.

Wight is another who'll be looking to have another big pre-season in the gym, and expect him to again have a bigger impact. Not sure he'll be a best 22 player next year, but as long as he continues to improve and can play a role in the side when required and do it well. He's versatile too, showed some positive signs down back and up forward in his time, although had some ordinary performances as well. It's all on Cam and the coaching staff on whether he'll ever deliver, but he could do.

Tiller also showed some positive signs this past season. I had honestly not expected him to play at all this season, he'd had a few injuries and had mainly been playing in the Werribee reserves. He managed to come in and hold his own in a team starved of good delivery and opportunity. He has good pace, hands, good below his body and has good enthusiasm to the contest. He looks like he could add some serious weight to his frame too if he works hard and keeps drinking the mushasi. He could become an exciting player for us over the next few years if he does the hard yards and continues to build.

These guys are all more unsure, we can hope that they will come on, but it seems less likely they'll be able to meet the heights of the other 3, but at the same time, they could become as important to our team.

If we can snare someone like Hudson, that will also help us out a lot. I wouldn't go as far to say that Hudson is a quality ruck, but it was his first year off a knee injury, so who knows. I'm not expecting too much, but he could prove to be an excellent recruit given he could possibly play another 3-4 years if his body holds up.

I do think we are still crying out for another genuine star key forward though, unless one of our top 3 talls can become a forward and do it well. It's going to be an interesting summer for our tall players as we work out the best way to set them up and they battle it out for positions.

What are everyone's thoughts? Do we still need to chase more quality talls? Will our 'could make it' group come on? How confident are you with our current talls going into next season?

[DOG GOD]

The big question mark for me is Minson, Wight and Tiller. IMO they are a fair way from being "quality".

However, Everitt and Williams look TOP SHELF to me, and should continue to improve with the more game time they get.

Harris will continue to lead our defensive ranks, and im sure we havent seen the BEST of him yet.


Hudson will add alot to our side IMO. He will add strength around the contest, and can pinch hit up fwd.

You made some good pts. :)

[Sedat]

What are everyone's thoughts? Do we still need to chase more quality talls? Will our 'could make it' group come on? How confident are you with our current talls going into next season?
We should, but we should do it through the draft and not via a trade. A quailty young player unearthed through the draft will always cost less than trading for a genuine quality tall. We just have to trust Clayton to pick the right player. Clubs always pay over the odds when getting a genuinely good KPP via the trade route.

You can always try to find some unpolished gems in amoungst the cheap seats, like we did last year with Doogs. This is low risk low reward stuff and not particularly sexy, but it can pay handsome dividents if the right player is selected. I'm sure Brisbane were very happy with the output of Martin Pike for the measly cost to outlay his services.

Williams, Harris and Everitt are the only quality talls we have coming through IMO. Minson is rough and raw, but he has the tools to become a very importent part of our set-up. I don't think he will ever be "quality", but a combo of Hudson and an improved Minson will do wonders for our stoppage and clearance structure. Wight still looks a fair way off for mine - he lacks presence, which is something that doesn't just develop overnight. Tiller is a way off, but showed enough to suggest he can chop Johnno out and become our mark on a lead forward. He has good hands. O'Shea is the only other player in our squad who seems to have the developmental capability to become a quality tall, but he is obviously a long way off at the minute. However, he did dominate VFL 2nds and force his way into the firsts where he was amoungst the best players a couple of time. That suggest to me rapid improvement for someone who only turned 18 during the season.

[Go_Dogs]

We should, but we should do it through the draft and not via a trade. A quailty young player unearthed through the draft will always cost less than trading for a genuine quality tall. We just have to trust Clayton to pick the right player. Clubs always pay over the odds when getting a genuinely good KPP via the trade route.

You can always try to find some unpolished gems in amoungst the cheap seats, like we did last year with Doogs. This is low risk low reward stuff and not particularly sexy, but it can pay handsome dividents if the right player is selected. I'm sure Brisbane were very happy with the output of Martin Pike for the measly cost to outlay his services.

Williams, Harris and Everitt are the only quality talls we have coming through IMO. Minson is rough and raw, but he has the tools to become a very importent part of our set-up. I don't think he will ever be "quality", but a combo of Hudson and an improved Minson will do wonders for our stoppage and clearance structure. Wight still looks a fair way off for mine - he lacks presence, which is something that doesn't just develop overnight. Tiller is a way off, but showed enough to suggest he can chop Johnno out and become our mark on a lead forward. He has good hands. O'Shea is the only other player in our squad who seems to have the developmental capability to become a quality tall, but he is obviously a long way off at the minute. However, he did dominate VFL 2nds and force his way into the firsts where he was amoungst the best players a couple of time. That suggest to me rapid improvement for someone who only turned 18 during the season.

Agreed on your first point, I'd much prefer to draft rather than trade for a quality tall.

Doogs is another who I didn't put onto the list, but he could even still become a quality tall defender, and I shouldn't discount him. He played some good roles as a second or third tall defender, and looked quite capable in the role. He'll never be the dominant defender I shouldn't think, but he will be able to do a good job.

O'Shea will hopefully be able to get a handful of games this coming season, but it won't be until 2009 that we really start to see him playing consistent AFL. Like you said though, his rapid rise through the ranks was impressive and based off that, he could potentially make the transition to AFL standard reasonably quickly.

[LostDoggy]

I believe the backline is in very good hands with the players mentioned. Hudson and Minson, hopefully supported longer term by a tall from this year's draft will cover the rucks.

The big hole continues to remain in the forward area. Tiller, whilst having potential does not "play tall." I am hoping Henderson will fall through to us in the draft but he will take a couple of years also

This leaves us with Skipper who has shown he can take a catch up forward. As the third "go to" player after Johnson and Murphy, he may be a chance. I believe the structure of the forward line is as important as the personnel - a three man forward line is a ticket to nowhere

[bornadog]

We should be looking at drafting another young ruckman even if we get Hudson and like everyone else has mentioned, we need a quality tall in the forward line. I would really like to look at CHF rather than the tradittional FF role. All the great teams that have won a premiership have had a good CHF, a Mooney type would be ideal. Some one that is agressive, can take a Mark and create goals, another Chris Grant would be nice. But, we don't seem to have any one in that Mould, Doogs was supposed to be that person, so what do we do? Do we trade for some one like McGregor (unknown really as not consistent), Playfair (same as McGregor), or do we try Wight or Williams in the role or even Minson or we just go for a pure draft pick as we have in the past few years and try and develop one till we get there.

This years draft is going to be very interesting and I can't wait.

[dog town]

We should be looking at drafting another young ruckman even if we get Hudson and like everyone else has mentioned, we need a quality tall in the forward line. I would really like to look at CHF rather than the tradittional FF role. All the great teams that have won a premiership have had a good CHF, a Mooney type would be ideal. Some one that is agressive, can take a Mark and create goals, another Chris Grant would be nice. But, we don't seem to have any one in that Mould, Doogs was supposed to be that person, so what do we do? Do we trade for some one like McGregor (unknown really as not consistent), Playfair (same as McGregor), or do we try Wight or Williams in the role or even Minson or we just go for a pure draft pick as we have in the past few years and try and develop one till we get there.

This years draft is going to be very interesting and I can't wait. The problem is that the style we played this season doesn't allow for a CHF. We carry the ball through the part of the ground where you would be looking for a CHF so before we can start looking at getting in a CHF we need to tinker with the way we play the game to begin with.

[Sockeye Salmon]

The problem is that the style we played this season doesn't allow for a CHF. We carry the ball through the part of the ground where you would be looking for a CHF so before we can start looking at getting in a CHF we need to tinker with the way we play the game to begin with.

Chicked or egg stuff, isn't it?

Perhaps if we had a CHF we wouldn't have to resort to this kind of thing?

[dog town]

Chicked or egg stuff, isn't it?

Perhaps if we had a CHF we wouldn't have to resort to this kind of thing? Yeah I was going to add that in but who really knows what Rockets thinking? I see plenty of guys on our list that he could have atleast given a shot at CHF and would do better there than most of the guys you could get in a trade. I think he may have thought we had a team that could completely change the way footy is played and went that way but now he may be looking at going back down a more conventional path. Realistically we are not actually well enough off for running power to play the game he wanted to play anyway.

I reckon he took Murphy away from CHF in late 2005 and we started playing that running game with Murphy and Johnson playing deep and because it worked so well initially he stuck with it. We all know we need a big guy to play CHF but I would have preferred us to play with a more conventional set up this year even without a big key forward. Cant say how we will go about it next year but I know I would rather our midfielders feeding off lead up targets (even if they are small or average players) than trying to run and bounce the ball through a wall of opposition players. Cant expect the side to win contested ball if you are conditioning them avoid contests at all costs.

[Go_Dogs]

Yeah I was going to add that in but who really knows what Rockets thinking? I see plenty of guys on our list that he could have atleast given a shot at CHF and would do better there than most of the guys you could get in a trade. I think he may have thought we had a team that could completely change the way footy is played and went that way but now he may be looking at going back down a more conventional path. Realistically we are not actually well enough off for running power to play the game he wanted to play anyway.

I reckon he took Murphy away from CHF in late 2005 and we started playing that running game with Murphy and Johnson playing deep and because it worked so well initially he stuck with it. We all know we need a big guy to play CHF but I would have preferred us to play with a more conventional set up this year even without a big key forward. Cant say how we will go about it next year but I know I would rather our midfielders feeding off lead up targets (even if they are small or average players) than trying to run and bounce the ball through a wall of opposition players. Cant expect the side to win contested ball if you are conditioning them avoid contests at all costs.

Excellent post, especially the bolded bit. I agree that Eade was really working to change the way the game was played, and move away from the more conventional set ups. I think to a certain extent it has worked very well, and I see no reason why we can't 'take the space' and still have a presenting CHF. Could we not run and carry the ball past/over the leading forward if we wanted, and get a bit of best of both worlds going on?

I'm still keen on Eade trying to build the game plan the way he has. The recruits from last year will add a lot to our run and defensive pressure, especially in our forward half, which really held us back this year.

[southerncross]

Seriously a great thread M23

FWIW, I don't think the club works hard enough on our talls into making them into good or solid talls.
Minson's marking for example is very poor and the same with Skipper although he does hold a few of the more difficult ones. With Wight we seem to want to make him the tallest half back flanker ever.

I'd be surprised if we really have worked hard with these guys on their marking.

[Mofra]

The problem is that the style we played this season doesn't allow for a CHF. We carry the ball through the part of the ground where you would be looking for a CHF so before we can start looking at getting in a CHF we need to tinker with the way we play the game to begin with.
In the last part of the season not having a genuine mark (tall or not) on the HF line killed us. For much of the season only Higgo would present to the guys ruhnning out of the backline under pressure. Our style of play often lends itself very well to a strong running, HF workhorse. Murphy is still regaining touch, however a running mobile HF in the Hanson mould would be ideal.

[dog town]

I see no reason why we can't 'take the space' and still have a presenting CHF. Could we not run and carry the ball past/over the leading forward if we wanted, and get a bit of best of both worlds going on?

. Possibly but I dont think they would want to draw an opposition player into the space that they want to carry the ball in. If you lead then opponents will follow you to that space. Certainly could do it but I am not sure they WANT to do it that way which is pretty much my entire point.

[dog town]

however a running mobile HF in the Hanson mould would be ideal.
I agree but how do you think he would go if he was told not to lead up the ground? Our guys are either told not to lead into the space or they have the footy smarts of an U/10s player because everytime I watch us they just will not push up the ground to give an option.

[Mofra]

I agree but how do you think he would go if he was told not to lead up the ground? Our guys are either told not to lead into the space or they have the footy smarts of an U/10s player because everytime I watch us they just will not push up the ground to give an option.
A bit of Chicken vs Egg really, if we had a Hanson would Eade mind him pushing up providing an option? So often we try to hold the ball up, only to turn it over.
See Murphy's form in 05, ran hard to provide an option whenever we needed it. He ended up 4th in the league for marks, due purely to his workrate - when tracked, he basically covered the same ground as a midfielder.

[dog town]

See Murphy's form in 05, ran hard to provide an option whenever we needed it. He ended up 4th in the league for marks, due purely to his workrate - when tracked, he basically covered the same ground as a midfielder. Exactly and from late 2005 into early 2006 we started playing him deeper and completely took out CHF as a position. In no way am I saying that type of player wouldn't work for us I am saying Eade hasn't shown a desire to use them for some time now. I certainly hope this changes.

[Raw Toast]

Was there a rumour that Murphy had groin issues at the time he was moved deeper into the forward-line?

Regarding the Grand Final it looked to me like Geelong were trying to run the ball out of their back-line - extra man, handpass crazy to find the free player who can run forward - perhaps with the difference that they didn't have a couple of designated kickers (eg McMahon and Gilbee). However, once they had someone running they then look for a leading target around chf or the hff who then took the ball deep.

Seemed like what you have been calling for DT - and those presenting around chf or on the hff didn't need to be big, they just needed to present like Chapman and also Kelly. They then tried to set someone up in the fifty but if no option was immediately available went deep to the goal-square where someone was positioned who they hoped could at least hold their own in a contest (N Ablett, Mooney).

Maybe this is a bit of a simple reading as they also tried to use the corridor a lot as well, but I can't see why we couldn't modify our attack to be along these lines.

[Go_Dogs]

Possibly but I dont think they would want to draw an opposition player into the space that they want to carry the ball in. If you lead then opponents will follow you to that space. Certainly could do it but I am not sure they WANT to do it that way which is pretty much my entire point.

In theory, that works fine. What about situations where we cannot generate space in front of the ball carrier due to other teams zones, numbers back etc? We can't be a one trick pony where all we do is run into the space in front of us. As soon as the space disappears we quickly throw it on the boot to a 3 on 1, or chip sideways or handpass to people under pressure, as we look up, can't run and have no one presenting. I'm guessing I'm just making the exact point you have been, right? That we need to do 'something' do our game plan and structures which can provide us efficient alternatives to bringing the ball forward with speed and playing to our strengths.

Interesting how 'Bomber' said that he really wanted to 'copy' the Bulldogs style from 2006, high scoring, play on and attack at every chance. We need to get back to our basics, and tinker with a few things I think.

Personally, I'm happy to have a coach that will experiment and try new things. Eade has certainly done that with his game style over the past few years.

[dog town]

In theory, that works fine. What about situations where we cannot generate space in front of the ball carrier due to other teams zones, numbers back etc? We can't be a one trick pony where all we do is run into the space in front of us. As soon as the space disappears we quickly throw it on the boot to a 3 on 1, or chip sideways or handpass to people under pressure, as we look up, can't run and have no one presenting. I'm guessing I'm just making the exact point you have been, right? That we need to do 'something' do our game plan and structures which can provide us efficient alternatives to bringing the ball forward with speed and playing to our strengths.

. Yep agree with all of that. I liked what we did against Stkilda in our drawn game. We might have looked ugly but we actually spotted up targets coming up the ground and changed our style against a team which had historically zoned up in the midfield and really clogged us up.



Interesting how 'Bomber' said that he really wanted to 'copy' the Bulldogs style from 2006, high scoring, play on and attack at every chance. We need to get back to our basics, and tinker with a few things I think.

Personally, I'm happy to have a coach that will experiment and try new things. Eade has certainly done that with his game style over the past few years. The thing the cats do that I really like is work together as a back 6. They all are willing to leave an opponent to make 2 on 1 contests and they take alot of marks like that. They then spread very quickly. They are also better around the stoppages than we are which gives them the confidence to run forward as hard as they do. Love giving a backwards handball to a sweeper who then has the whole field in front of him to hit an option. On the weekend I didn't watch that closely (was actually on my footy trip) but Ottens and Mooney both spent time as lead up players as did Johnson and Chapman.

I dont think they play our exact style but they do have that all out attack mentality which I suppose is easy to do when you have such a reliable back 6. I actually see us as potentially being able to have something similar. We were right up their for marks inside our defensive 50 from opposition kicks this year. We are building a very tall but mobile backline that will hopefully be able to stand on its own two feet as a back 6 and not rely too much on numbers getting back. Harris plays a fairly similar style to Scarlett and with Everitt, Williams, Morris, Gilbee (plays tall) and even Wight we have a good mix of tall running players. If we could put a bit more pressure on the opposition as they come forward I think we can become a very good team defensively. Seems miles away now but it can turn around pretty quickly.

[dog town]

Was there a rumour that Murphy had groin issues at the time he was moved deeper into the forward-line?

. Vaguely remember something. We have other guys who can do it though and none of them even try. When you see experienced players like Aker and Johnson seeeing a big hole to lead into and actually running the other way I think its fair to assume its a deliberate act. I think we missed Cross so much cause he would sometimes use his massive engine to sprint across the ground and atleast give us an option to go to in space.



.

Seemed like what you have been calling for DT - and those presenting around chf or on the hff didn't need to be big, they just needed to present like Chapman and also Kelly. They then tried to set someone up in the fifty but if no option was immediately available went deep to the goal-square where someone was positioned who they hoped could at least hold their own in a contest (N Ablett, Mooney).

Maybe this is a bit of a simple reading as they also tried to use the corridor a lot as well, but I can't see why we couldn't modify our attack to be along these lines. Being big helps but anyone would be better than nothing at all. Ottens went to CHF when he was resting and must have created 3 or 4 goals just through either marking on the lead or creating a spillage that the cats players swarmed off.

[macca028]

Dont know where to write it so ill just write it here, just heard chris bond is going to the freo dockers. He will be incharge of list management.

[southerncross]

Dont know where to write it so ill just write it here, just heard chris bond is going to the freo dockers. He will be incharge of list management.

Sockeye just posted it on a thread as well.

[hargs37]

Think personalt that they have at least one bloke to stand up in that key marking forward role. Just not sure which one. Skipper, who showed he has the potential, if left in the side long enough, or Doogs, if given a similar chance. Would love to see big skip take the bull by the horns, like he did against the saints, and also a game a few years back where he slotted a cool half dozen, including a freak from the boundry. A tall draftee will take some time so one of these blokes needs to step up. No need for thew likes of McGregor or Playfair, as they couldn't play consistantly enough at there own clubs. The risks havent worked in the past(Rawlings) so time to start from scratch with a young bloke.
Ps Can someone who knows a bit about this years draftees please lend us the benefit of your wisdom, and not assume we all know who these names you've mentioned,are and where they're from. Ta!