Can Someone 'Educate' The Coach?

[The Doctor]

Honestly, if that wasn't the worst season of football I've ever sat through then I don't know what was. The Hart years and Rhode years weren't as bad, surely. At least we played football and not the tripe we served up this year.

Here's a couple of gripes,

1. If we use the 2012 gameplan as our future blueprint then we should change our name from the Bulldogs to the Crabs. All this bloody sideways movement. Keep chipping sideways (or backwards) until we lose it, then they score and we do it all again!! For God sake how about going forward and having a go. How about having someone in the forward half?

2. When the opposition playmaker is cutting us to pieces a la Daniel Rich how about assigning our best tagger, or anybody for that matter, to him to try and stop him rather than continue to allow him to roam free in acres of space and allow him to continue cutting us to pieces.

I could go on but what's the point?

I'm sick of excuses about educating players, bad list management etc. We are not as bad as what we have been serving up.

Had a gut full!

[Sedat]

1. If we use the 2012 gameplan as our future blueprint then we should change our name from the Bulldogs to the Crabs. All this bloody sideways movement. Keep chipping sideways (or backwards) until we lose it, then they score and we do it all again!! For God sake how about going forward and having a go. How about having someone in the forward half?
We got rid of Sam Power too early - he would have been our sideways playmaker this season.

Agree Doc - I'm more than OK with a transition year and a rebuild but our complete and utter ineptness and non-competitiveness this season has shocked me.

[EasternWest]

We got rid of Sam Power too early - he would have been our sideways playmaker this season.

Don't lose hope, there's some talk on the board somewhere of looking at Farren Ray.

[Bulldog Revolution]

We are that bad Doctor, I just think we have to accept our results for what they are, reflective of where we are at

[LostDoggy]

We are not as bad as what we have been serving up.

Had a gut full!

I know you don't want excuses, and i am not for one minute suggesting we'd be knocking on the top 8 door. But lets not forget we had far from our best team on the park today. As bad as our game plan is, names like Morris, Cross etc cause a pretty big hole to fill.

[comrade]

I know you don't want excuses, and i am not for one minute suggesting we'd be knocking on the top 8 door. But lets not forget we had far from our best team on the park today. As bad as our game plan is, names like Morris, Cross etc cause a pretty big hole to fill.

I love Morris and Crossy, but getting them on the park won't help our ball movement very much.

[Sedat]

We are that bad Doctor, I just think we have to accept our results for what they are, reflective of where we are at
We were just as inexperienced last season and ended up 9-13 and a percentage of 95, and that was after a horrendous start to the season. On paper, we were no worse in 2012 than our 2011 squad, and yet in 2011 we were non-competitive twice throughout the season (against WC in Perth and Geelong at Skilled). I've lost count of the number of abject, non-competitive performances this season.

There have been a lot of hindsight experts proclaiming that we were complete rubbish this season and no amount of effort from the new regime was going to fix our problems in one season - very sympathetic and generous assessment of 2012 IMO.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We were just as inexperienced last season and ended up 9-13 and a percentage of 95, and that was after a horrendous start to the season. On paper, we were no worse in 2012 than our 2011 squad, and yet in 2011 we were non-competitive twice throughout the season (against WC in Perth and Geelong at Skilled). I've lost count of the number of abject, non-competitive performances this season.

There have been a lot of hindsight experts proclaiming that we were complete rubbish this season and no amount of effort from the new regime was going to fix our problems in one season - very sympathetic and generous assessment of 2012 IMO.

I agree with the rest, but not the bolded.

Hall and Ward were pretty close to being 'A' grade players if they previously were not. They have been two absolutely massive losses for the football club. Not only were they both extremely good players, they brought their team mates into the game too.

Unsurprisingly, guys like Griffen in the midfield and Jones/Grant up forward have found it a lot tougher.

Nevertheless, it does not excuse our uncompetitiveness for half of the season.

[Sedat]

Hall and Ward were pretty close to being 'A' grade players if they previously were not. They have been two absolutely massive losses for the football club. Not only were they both extremely good players, they brought their team mates into the game too.
Ward absolutely but Hall gave us virtually nothing last season until about Round 14 or so - he certainly found the line well. Ward has been a massive loss to be fair.

[Greystache]

Ward absolutely but Hall gave us virtually nothing last season until about Round 14 or so - he certainly found the line well. Ward has been a massive loss to be fair.

And that was reflected in our results, with Hall struggling early on we won 3 games up to round 12. Extrapolate that out and we'd have finished on 6 wins, pretty similar to this year.

[Sedat]

Extrapolate that out and we'd have finished on 6 wins, pretty similar to this year.
The number of wins is not what has shocked me, it is the manner of our defeats. Our percentage of 67 tells more than our 5 wins - the fact that our percentage was hovering around the 100 mark after 9 rounds is a savage indictment on our 2nd half of the season.

[Eastdog]

Our playing group really need to take a hard look at themselves this summer. I understand that we are going to perform not as well as in previous years as we have a very young inexperienced list with older players past their best but what we have shown in the 2nd half of this season is not acceptable and we have shown no competitiveness and effort and thats what the supporters want. If we lose and there is no effort then thats unacceptable but if there is effort then you can go home a bit more satisfied.

[Ghost Dog]

The number of wins is not what has shocked me, it is the manner of our defeats. Our percentage of 67 tells more than our 5 wins - the fact that our percentage was hovering around the 100 mark after 9 rounds is a savage indictment on our 2nd half of the season.

Agreed Sedat. Our inside 50 marking is a massive concern. We don't look to have any ability to score from the get go.

[LostDoggy]

I love Morris and Crossy, but getting them on the park won't help our ball movement very much.

Again, like I said, not saying it would change any results but it is another hole a depleted team has to fill.

[whythelongface]

Agreed Sedat. Our inside 50 marking is a massive concern. We don't look to have any ability to score from the get go.

This has been our problem for awhile now and has really come to the fore this year. However it has really been an issue for a number of years particularly against the top teams.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Ward absolutely but Hall gave us virtually nothing last season until about Round 14 or so - he certainly found the line well. Ward has been a massive loss to be fair.

Wallis has done a fair job as a Ward replacement and Lake has been back.

[bulldogsman]

Wallis has done a fair job as a Ward replacement and Lake has been back.

And our best defender didn't play a game.

Hall held our forward line together and most of our older players (apart from Boyd, Cross) went backwards in form from previous years.

[Remi Moses]

Falling off "the Cliff" is the worrying aspect.
Is it the amount of young players?
Competitiveness is crucial next season!!

[The Underdog]

Falling off "the Cliff" is the worrying aspect.
Is it the amount of young players?
Competitiveness is crucial next season!!

Considering that seems to be the coaches non negotiable from player to player, it should certainly be an element he is judged on. Simplistic and obvious maybe, but we've heard so much about teaching the right way, that if this element doesn't improve next year then Macca should be judged harshly.

I certainly hope there is a focus this off-season on ball movement and spread considering how awful these areas are for us.

[stefoid]

Im more optimisitc.

I believe that sometime during the second half of the year, the board abandoned the idea of 'being competitive' and embraced 'lets strip this whole thing down (play this kids at all costs), and tank this thing properly'. i.e. stuff this year, lets play for the future.

Coons and Grif were top 5 picks for a reason, and if Coons was fit both would be heads and shoudlers our two best players at the moment. Ditto Pendles and Thomas, Franklyn and Roughead, Murphy, Pav, Judd, etc... The thinking is that we are never going to have a hotter iron in our hands to strike the draft with than this transitional non-finals year, with a new coach and an extra pick the AFL forced on us by stealing Ward. So let us make maximum use of that situation.

Now that is pretty hard line to walk - tank at the selection table and put out competitive, but losing performances week in, week out. And if you want the really good draft picks that offer the promise of game-changing marque superstars, you have to lose consistantly.

There is no real way to lose consistently without sucking horribly.

Once 'the tank' dripped down to the players, particuarly the senior players, performances dropped off once the reality sank in.

The idea is of course, that we will bounce back harder in the near future as a result - not only from draft picks but by putting a lot of time into the kids and fringe players to see who can play and who cant.

Im optimistic because I dont believe that the list we have is as bad as our performance this year indicates.

[LostDoggy]

Pick 4 & 5 in the draft...who do we get? This draft is said to be very good, the first 25-30 players are meant to be really good.

[stefoid]

Plenty of threads and opinions on who. Dalrymple has a whole year of pain riding on this bucket of quality low picks we have inside the first 3 rounds, and our draft position could get better yet with trades.

no pressure!

[Maddog37]

Sad to say the draft season might be more exciting than the home and away season. Is this what it feels like to be a Melbourne supporter?

[Bulldog Revolution]

We were just as inexperienced last season and ended up 9-13 and a percentage of 95, and that was after a horrendous start to the season. On paper, we were no worse in 2012 than our 2011 squad, and yet in 2011 we were non-competitive twice throughout the season (against WC in Perth and Geelong at Skilled). I've lost count of the number of abject, non-competitive performances this season.

There have been a lot of hindsight experts proclaiming that we were complete rubbish this season and no amount of effort from the new regime was going to fix our problems in one season - very sympathetic and generous assessment of 2012 IMO.

We see it differently Sedat,

I think in 2012 we played more inexperienced players, more often in more important role, (Cordy, Roughie, Campbell, Smith, Wallis, Talia, Marko etc). Fringe players who played VFL in 2011 became senior players in Minson and Addison. I think there was a recognition we couldn't compete in the short term and that we invested game time in young players. We debuted first year players Smith, Talia, Dickson, Pearce, Roberts and and rookies Campbell, Johannisen, Jong and Austin.

We lost a whole year from Morris, basically Williams too, and a big chunk from important players in Dalhaus and Cross. And we persisted in blooding more and more players. We are in a rebuilding phase and our recent trades Sherman, Veszpremi and Djerrkura haven't worked.

Im not using injuries as an excuse but with Cooney struggling we majorly lack stars and our forward line could not replace the focal point that was Barry Hall, who might have struggled early in 2011, but still kicked 55 for the year.

[bornadog]

We see it differently Sedat,

I think in 2012 we played more inexperienced players, more often in more important role, (Cordy, Roughie, Campbell, Smith, Wallis, Talia, Marko etc). Fringe players who played VFL in 2011 became senior players in Minson and Addison. I think there was a recognition we couldn't compete in the short term and that we invested game time in young players. We debuted first year players Smith, Talia, Dickson, Pearce, Roberts and and rookies Campbell, Johannisen, Jong and Austin.

We lost a whole year from Morris, basically Williams too, and a big chunk from important players in Dalhaus and Cross. And we persisted in blooding more and more players. We are in a rebuilding phase and our recent trades Sherman, Veszpremi and Djerrkura haven't worked.

Im not using injuries as an excuse but with Cooney struggling we majorly lack stars and our forward line could not replace the focal point that was Barry Hall, who might have struggled early in 2011, but still kicked 55 for the year.

We can say the same for 2011. We lost Lake, Cooney (for most of the season), Hargrave, Williams, in fact the whole backline except Murphy. We blooded 10 new players, as well as playing a few second year players with a handful of games.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We can say the same for 2011. We lost Lake, Cooney (for most of the season), Hargrave, Williams, in fact the whole backline except Murphy. We blooded 10 new players, as well as playing a few second year players with a handful of games.

We lost Lake -- that was about it.

In 2012, Cooney was worse and ditto Hargrave. Williams' year a write off, basically.

Not sure why posters are refusing to face the facts. I'm not convinced on McCartney yet, but it's also easy to see why we dropped off over 12 months. Hall was an incredible loss, ditto Ward, whilst Hudson and Morris were both pretty handy too.

The Sherman/Veszpremi/Djerrkera trades have hurt us. Who was responsible for that?

[bornadog]

Not sure why posters are refusing to face the facts.

Don't understand this comment? The facts are we lost the last 11 games at an average of 10 goals.


2011 last game:

Western Bulldogs Attribute Fremantle
187.0cm Height 189.4cm
85.8kg Weight 87.9kg
24yr 2mth Age 23yr 10mth
67.2 Games 50.0

Total Players By Games

Western Bulldogs Games Fremantle
12 Less than 50 12
3 50 to 99 4
2 100 to 149 4
5 150 or more 2

2012 Last game

Average Attributes

Brisbane Attribute Western Bulldogs
186.4cm Height 188.0cm
84.8kg Weight 87.5kg
24yr 8mth Age 24yr 2mth
70.8 Games 61.5

Total Players By Games

Brisbane Games Western Bulldogs
11 Less than 50 13
4 50 to 99 3
5 100 to 149 2
2 150 or more 4
__________________

Last year we had a team with almost the same average games, same average age as this years last game of the year. What a differfence in the result.

You can aslo see we had 12 players last year with less than 50 games compared to 13 this year. Yet our results are soooo different.

Brisbane were only 6 months older and an average of 9 games more per player and they killed us.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Don't understand this comment? The facts are we lost the last 11 games at an average of 10 goals.

Nobody is disputing our extremely poor performances, but there's a group of posters that keep trotting out the same line, and keep referring to Eade and 2011.

A lot has changed in 12 months, yet many refuse to accept it and would rather crucify the coaching group as some sort of retribution for Eade.

Reading is damn dour at the moment.

[stefoid]

We can say the same for 2011. We lost Lake, Cooney (for most of the season), Hargrave, Williams, in fact the whole backline except Murphy. We blooded 10 new players, as well as playing a few second year players with a handful of games.

A major difference was Hall averaged almost 4 goals a game while taking the oppositions 37 best defenders - in retrospect a huge smoking crater in our forward line.

Lets face it, here are the sides that finished bottom 6 last year:

12 Richmond
13 Melbourne
14 Adelaide
15 Brisbane Lions
16 Port Adelaide
17 Gold Coast

Guess who we beat last year for our 9 wins? Those 6 sides (gold coast twice). We also beat Freo in the last game of the year when they were struggling to field 22 fit players. Our 'scalp' for the year was Carlton in a nice upset similar to our north melbourne 'scalp' this year.

As for our relative competitivness last year , Essendon beat us by 50 twice, the pies by 48, hawks by 46, cats by 61, WCE by 123! We had a couple of 'respectable' losses to sydney and north melbourne by 5 and 6 goals only...

Yes, we are somewhat worse this year than last year, but I wouldnt call it night and day.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Last year we had a team with almost the same average games, same average age as this years last game of the year. What a differfence in the result.

You can aslo see we had 12 players last year with less than 50 games compared to 13 this year. Yet our results are soooo different.

You sound like you expect first/second/third year players to suddenly become great senior footballers over one preseason. The fact is, until they get 4 seasons under their belt, improvement will be minimal for most. Jones is a prime example, so the 'less than 50 games' stat accounts for little.

What this year does tell me is that our senior core has dropped off significantly. No Hall and Ward hurts us significantly in this area, ditto Morris and Williams, but Murphy and Giansiracusa especially aren't half the players they were in 2011.

Then, of course, we have few middle aged players. Cooney's 2012 was as bad it could get which really only left Griffen.

[Greystache]

We lost Lake -- that was about it.

In 2012, Cooney was worse and ditto Hargrave. Williams' year a write off, basically.

Not sure why posters are refusing to face the facts. I'm not convinced on McCartney yet, but it's also easy to see why we dropped off over 12 months. Hall was an incredible loss, ditto Ward, whilst Hudson and Morris were both pretty handy too.

The Sherman/Veszpremi/Djerrkera trades have hurt us. Who was responsible for that?

That sums up my thoughts too.

Look at the teams we've been fielding, the results were only ever going to go one way. I'm hoping with a year of list management, another preseason, and some more games into 18-19 year olds under his instruction, McCartney will start to show what his plans are for us long term. If we're in the same position in 12 months then I'll start to be concerned.

[LostDoggy]

Im more optimisitc.

I believe that sometime during the second half of the year, the board abandoned the idea of 'being competitive' and embraced 'lets strip this whole thing down (play this kids at all costs), and tank this thing properly'. i.e. stuff this year, lets play for the future.

Coons and Grif were top 5 picks for a reason, and if Coons was fit both would be heads and shoudlers our two best players at the moment. Ditto Pendles and Thomas, Franklyn and Roughead, Murphy, Pav, Judd, etc... The thinking is that we are never going to have a hotter iron in our hands to strike the draft with than this transitional non-finals year, with a new coach and an extra pick the AFL forced on us by stealing Ward. So let us make maximum use of that situation.

Now that is pretty hard line to walk - tank at the selection table and put out competitive, but losing performances week in, week out. And if you want the really good draft picks that offer the promise of game-changing marque superstars, you have to lose consistantly.

There is no real way to lose consistently without sucking horribly.

Once 'the tank' dripped down to the players, particuarly the senior players, performances dropped off once the reality sank in.

The idea is of course, that we will bounce back harder in the near future as a result - not only from draft picks but by putting a lot of time into the kids and fringe players to see who can play and who cant.

Im optimistic because I dont believe that the list we have is as bad as our performance this year indicates.


This. Well said, Stefoid.

I think it is encapsulated by asking ourselves how many genuine fully fit star playmakers we had in the side compared to 2011. We lost experience and then we lost more. It doesn't take Einstein to work out that we ended up with a number of 'average' players and juniors who are not star play makers. The experience and endurance to keep making the play when it's all going against you…just a couple of champions would have made all the difference. We don't have them and we folded more often that not when the going got tough…..as you would reasonably expect in the second half of a long, gruelling year.

[LostDoggy]

We lost Lake -- that was about it.

In 2012, Cooney was worse and ditto Hargrave. Williams' year a write off, basically.

Not sure why posters are refusing to face the facts.
Like some of these facts?
Cooney played 1 game less last year with similar stats and apart from the Carlton game was no better last year.
Hargrave played 5 games last year 12 this year, he missed much of this year cos he wasn't selected and a few were where he injured.
Tom played 17 last year and 3 this season. When he did play, he was made to run around at CHF so surely he would get injured again.
Hudson was cooked last year and Minson output in 2012 was better than Huddo's 2011.
Gilbee dropped off last year not this one.
Hall played 15 games and had only 10 goals at start of round 14. Still won 2 of the 7 he didn't play to Richmond and North. Lost away to Freo by 8pts. Ran Collingwood close for 3 qtrs. Thrashed by Geelong and WCE both away. Saints at home.
Someone has already mentioned Wallis has made up somewhat for Ward.

Anyway the coach had all pre-season to plan a strategy to compensate the loss of Hall and Ward.

[Maddog37]

So you want to sack the coach?

[ledge]

Like some of these facts?
Cooney played 1 game less last year with similar stats and apart from the Carlton game was no better last year.
Hargrave played 5 games last year 12 this year, he missed much of this year cos he wasn't selected and a few were where he injured.
Tom played 17 last year and 3 this season. When he did play, he was made to run around at CHF so surely he would get injured again.
Hudson was cooked last year and Minson output in 2012 was better than Huddo's 2011.
Gilbee dropped off last year not this one.
Hall played 15 games and had only 10 goals at start of round 14. Still won 2 of the 7 he didn't play to Richmond and North. Lost away to Freo by 8pts. Ran Collingwood close for 3 qtrs. Thrashed by Geelong and WCE both away. Saints at home.
Someone has already mentioned Wallis has made up somewhat for Ward.

Anyway the coach had all pre-season to plan a strategy to compensate the loss of Hall and Ward.

The coach also has to learn what players can play his plan and teach them which is done during games under pressure, hopefully he learnt a lot and starts the list managing with players he wants for next year

[LostDoggy]

So you want to sack the coach?
So you think he is great?

[Greystache]

So you think he is great?

There's nowhere in between?

[Eastdog]

Need to give Macca another year. If its the same as last then I agree then that his position as senior coach is in trouble. Rhode got 2 seasons to prove himself but didn't.

[LostDoggy]

There's nowhere in between?
Not for me. Do you need another year of the same stuff for proof?

[ledge]

Not for me. Do you need another year of the same stuff for proof?

Yes I do

[Remi Moses]

He's had all pre- season to cover the loss of Hall and Ward

Stupidest thing I've ever read:rolleyes:

[Greystache]

Not for me. Do you need another year of the same stuff for proof?

I neither love him nor think he should be sacked. That's the somewhere in between.

I haven't seen anything on field to suggest he's going to be a success, but in hearing his approach to how we should rebuild, the way to develop a team, and his plans to try to finally change the culture at the club all sound like the plan of someone who is the right person to have in charge.

Whether he is able to deliver it over the next 2 years will be the determining factor of whether "I love him" or "want him sacked". 12 months with a train wreck of a list is too small a sample to make an informed opinion as far as I'm concerned.

[Remi Moses]

Not for me. Do you need another year of the same stuff for proof?

Hypothetically speaking
New coach struggles next year. Another coach sacked?
I'm not sure on the coach either, but he deserves time.
Blaming the coach for not having any ideas how to replace a potential capt and a great like Barry Hall is just complete shit.

[Go_Dogs]

Not for me. Do you need another year of the same stuff for proof?

Sorry, but that's garbage, it's not as black and white as you suggest. I don't think the coach should be immune from a strong critique of his performance this year, but sacking him after one season is a desperate move - the only thing it would accomplish is appeasing fans such as yourself and in all likelihood cost us more $ and time.

Who would you replace him with? Would you sack them too if 2013 returned a similar outcome?

[AndrewP6]

Blaming the coach for not having any ideas how to replace a potential capt and a great like Barry Hall is just complete shit.

True. There are other things he doesn't appear to have ideas about ;)

[Hotdog60]

Macca is a teacher, if he 's no good on game day he will at least bring on the younger player and then his successor will reap the benefit of a good list.

We are in a rebuild and it will take time, you have to give the man a chance.

[Desipura]

I neither love him nor think he should be sacked. That's the somewhere in between.

I haven't seen anything on field to suggest he's going to be a success, but in hearing his approach to how we should rebuild, the way to develop a team, and his plans to try to finally change the culture at the club all sound like the plan of someone who is the right person to have in charge.

Whether he is able to deliver it over the next 2 years will be the determining factor of whether "I love him" or "want him sacked". 12 months with a train wreck of a list is too small a sample to make an informed opinion as far as I'm concerned.

Greystache, we are on the same page.

[Eastdog]

Macca is a teacher, if he 's no good on game day he will at least bring on the younger player and then his successor will reap the benefit of a good list.

We are in a rebuild and it will take time, you have to give the man a chance.

As frustrating as it is it is patience on our part. We are really at the bottom of the pit at the moment but we arent the only team who have been in this position. Very team has been in our position before.

[Bulldog Revolution]

We can say the same for 2011. We lost Lake, Cooney (for most of the season), Hargrave, Williams, in fact the whole backline except Murphy. We blooded 10 new players, as well as playing a few second year players with a handful of games.

Yes I agree the numbers of debutants look similar but the players who debuted in 2011 were a bit more experienced, as in had done a few more pre-seasons.

In 2012 we debuted 8 guys who weren't even on our list last year and Johannisen who'd been a rookie for one.

I think the cases of Mitch Wallis and Clay Smith illustrate what we've done differently in 2012.

Wallis played 6 games last year in his first year on the list, whilst Smith this year has played 16. For me that shows the difference and prominence given to first year players this year than in 2011.

[LostDoggy]

I neither love him nor think he should be sacked. That's the somewhere in between.

I haven't seen anything on field to suggest he's going to be a success, but in hearing his approach to how we should rebuild, the way to develop a team, and his plans to try to finally change the culture at the club all sound like the plan of someone who is the right person to have in charge.

Whether he is able to deliver it over the next 2 years will be the determining factor of whether "I love him" or "want him sacked". 12 months with a train wreck of a list is too small a sample to make an informed opinion as far as I'm concerned.

Pretty much my thoughts too.

We have tried different scenarios over the years since '54, why not try this.
Key words: culture change.

[LostDoggy]

Sorry, but that's garbage, it's not as black and white as you suggest.

I don't think the coach should be immune from a strong critique of his performance this year, but sacking him after one season is a desperate move - the only thing it would accomplish is appeasing fans such as yourself and in all likelihood cost us more $ and time.

Which why I've always said that replacing him won't achieve much now unless there are others above and around him that go as well.
Not his fault he was chosen for a role and isn't up to the task. The same mistake will happen again.

[LostDoggy]

I neither love him nor think he should be sacked. That's the somewhere in between.

I haven't seen anything on field to suggest he's going to be a success, but in hearing his approach to how we should rebuild, the way to develop a team, and his plans to try to finally change the culture at the club all sound like the plan of someone who is the right person to have in charge.
Fair enough, to me its just all talk with no substance.
I don't hate him, just think he isn't up to it.


Whether he is able to deliver it over the next 2 years will be the determining factor of whether "I love him" or "want him sacked". 12 months with a train wreck of a list is too small a sample to make an informed opinion as far as I'm concerned.

What if I'm right, and leaves the club in a worse position than when he started?

[westdog54]

Which why I've always said that replacing him won't achieve much now unless there are others above and around him that go as well.
Not his fault he was chosen for a role and isn't up to the task. The same mistake will happen again.

I agree with you that the structure of the football department isn't great at the moment but I think that one season, as terrible as it has been, is not enough to warrant dismissing a senior coach one year into a contract.

If by this time next year we're still copping 10 goal floggings week in week out (A lack of fitness in an inexperienced squad is a factor here whether some want to acknowledge it or not), then I'll entertain such calls.

In the meantime McCartney isn't the first in the queue of those who should go

[Ghost Dog]

How many wins do we need next season to satisfy people?
I would say 10 wins for me. Bare minimum

[Ghost Dog]

I neither love him nor think he should be sacked. That's the somewhere in between.

I haven't seen anything on field to suggest he's going to be a success, but in hearing his approach to how we should rebuild, the way to develop a team, and his plans to try to finally change the culture at the club all sound like the plan of someone who is the right person to have in charge.

Whether he is able to deliver it over the next 2 years will be the determining factor of whether "I love him" or "want him sacked". 12 months with a train wreck of a list is too small a sample to make an informed opinion as far as I'm concerned.

Good view. At least, if he's not the man to get us a flag, the man to lay a good foundation?

[ledge]

How many wins do we need next season to satisfy people?
I would say 10 wins for me. Bare minimum

Don't think it's about wins more about seeing improvement a game Plan that's starting to work and players improving

[azabob]

How many wins do we need next season to satisfy people?
I would say 10 wins for me. Bare minimum


Don't think it's about wins more about seeing improvement a game Plan that's starting to work and players improving

Agree with Ledge here, ten games as a bare minimum will be tough. We haven't won ten games in a season for two years.

[Maddog37]

So you think he is great?

Why would I answer your question when you won't answer mine.........

[Sockeye Salmon]

So you want to sack the coach?

I do.

[Ghost Dog]

I do.

Does Chops actually have two Avatars? Has anyone ever met Sockeye and Chops in the same room?? the plot thickens.....:D

[westdog54]

Does Chops actually have two Avatars? Has anyone ever met Sockeye and Chops in the same room?? the plot thickens.....:D

I can say with certainty I've enjoyed many a match alongside Chops and Sockeye, its actually a rather enjoyable day out believe it or not.:)

[G-Mo77]

Don't think it's about wins more about seeing improvement a game Plan that's starting to work and players improving

FWIW I don't think we'll win many more but what you said is what I'd like to see. 10 wins would outstanding GD but it's a pretty unrealistic target.

[Ghost Dog]

FWIW I don't think we'll win many more but what you said is what I'd like to see. 10 wins would outstanding GD but it's a pretty unrealistic target.

Have we become complacent? Teams like Sydney and even Brisbane have learned that being in rugby land, their backs are against the wall. They need those wins to keep their members entertained and interested. We absolutely cannot afford to have another year like this, or I guess I'm really worried about the future of the club.

[westdog54]

Have we become complacent? Teams like Sydney and even Brisbane have learned that being in rugby land, their backs are against the wall. They need those wins to keep their members entertained and interested. We absolutely cannot afford to have another year like this, or I guess I'm really worried about the future of the club.

Its worth remembering that being in Rugby Land means they get to spend more on their playing list than everyone else

[soupman]

Fair enough, to me its just all talk with no substance.
I don't hate him, just think he isn't up to it.



What if I'm right, and leaves the club in a worse position than when he started?

You may very well be right, but there's only one way to find out, and name one realistic scenario that can play out where you eliminate that risk.

The fact of the matter is that we as a club have put our faith in McCartney and whatever his plan may be. Sacking him puts us back at square one, shows that we have no faith in our selection process and makes selling the club just as hard, because if people don't want to sign up now imagine if we has the second choice coach in charge.

Also many have called for a chane in culture at the club in the past, and that is finally happening. The implications of this change have been fr more drastic than anticipated, and we have suffered as a result, but year things don't happen overnight.

My personal view on McCartney is still undecided, I'm neither pro or against, but I do believe we should remain as rational as possible ATM and "sack the coach" doesn't strike me as a smart move ATM.

[Sedat]

You may very well be right, but there's only one way to find out, and name one realistic scenario that can play out where you eliminate that risk.

The fact of the matter is that we as a club have put our faith in McCartney and whatever his plan may be. Sacking him puts us back at square one, shows that we have no faith in our selection process and makes selling the club just as hard, because if people don't want to sign up now imagine if we has the second choice coach in charge.

Also many have called for a chane in culture at the club in the past, and that is finally happening. The implications of this change have been fr more drastic than anticipated, and we have suffered as a result, but year things don't happen overnight.

My personal view on McCartney is still undecided, I'm neither pro or against, but I do believe we should remain as rational as possible ATM and "sack the coach" doesn't strike me as a smart move ATM.
I share a similar view to you, and have stated a number of times previously that BMac deserves the full 3 years to stamp his authority on the team. After round 9 I was stoked with what I saw - there was a team who pushed Adelaide (in Adelaide), Collingwood and Geelong all the way, and had a clear vision to win the contested ball and make life very difficult for the opposition to transfer the ball with speed and score against us. It only fell apart in one game up to that point.

What has transpired since the Sydney game at the SCG has genuinely shocked me - we have been so painfully easy to score against and our delivery once in possession has been so slow, static, risk-averse, passive, completely lacking in danger. I've also been really disappointed with our inability to alter the course of games, which good coaches can do at the drop of a hat. BMac has shown his inexperience in the hot seat, and the teaching and educating mantra has already worn thin. Starting with Round 1 2013, he needs to combine the education of the players with a sustainable game plan and an actual ability to influence things from the coaches box. He has been extremely resistant to change match-ups, no matter how lopsided they have been. His performance in the box needs to get better next year - he can't simply fall back on teaching and education.

[GVGjr]

His performance in the box needs to get better next year - he can't simply fall back on teaching and education.

This is how I see it. I don't think many people don't believe that this young list needs to be educated on how to play a better brand of football but this 'education' approach has a very limited shelf life in my opinion. I certainly don't want to be hearing it as the primary reason to explain a poor loss next season.

[Maddog37]

First test is the list clean out. If he hangs onto too much dead wood I will start to worry.

[F'scary]

Honestly, if that wasn't the worst season of football I've ever sat through then I don't know what was. The Hart years and Rhode years weren't as bad, surely. At least we played football and not the tripe we served up this year.

Here's a couple of gripes,

1. If we use the 2012 gameplan as our future blueprint then we should change our name from the Bulldogs to the Crabs. All this bloody sideways movement. Keep chipping sideways (or backwards) until we lose it, then they score and we do it all again!! For God sake how about going forward and having a go. How about having someone in the forward half?

2. When the opposition playmaker is cutting us to pieces a la Daniel Rich how about assigning our best tagger, or anybody for that matter, to him to try and stop him rather than continue to allow him to roam free in acres of space and allow him to continue cutting us to pieces.

I could go on but what's the point?

I'm sick of excuses about educating players, bad list management etc. We are not as bad as what we have been serving up.

Had a gut full!

Doctor, you are correct as always. The disorganised piling in by the entire team at the last place that the football had been spotted, only to find out that the ball was now 50 metres elsewhere was also a feature of season 2012.

[Ghost Dog]

Its worth remembering that being in Rugby Land means they get to spend more on their playing list than everyone else

Does this actually make the difference though? Sydney are very good at recycling and developing average players. This is not an issue of money.

[Ghost Dog]

I can say with certainty I've enjoyed many a match alongside Chops and Sockeye, its actually a rather enjoyable day out believe it or not.:)

haha I see! Do you actually get a cheer out of them now and then? Or do they just berate DJ all game long :D

[MrMahatma]

I reaction blokes like Wallis, Dahl, Roghie, Libba, Talia, Smith, JJ, Jong all showed glimpses and improved on last yr or during the year.

Let's see how the individual improvement goes next yr and if that translates to a better team result. I feel relatively optimistic about things to be honest. I think we're on the right track. Our list is a dreadful combination of young, too old, and just not up to it.

[bornadog]

You sound like you expect first/second/third year players to suddenly become great senior footballers over one preseason. The fact is, until they get 4 seasons under their belt, improvement will be minimal for most. Jones is a prime example, so the 'less than 50 games' stat accounts for little.

What this year does tell me is that our senior core has dropped off significantly. No Hall and Ward hurts us significantly in this area, ditto Morris and Williams, but Murphy and Giansiracusa especially aren't half the players they were in 2011.

Then, of course, we have few middle aged players. Cooney's 2012 was as bad it could get which really only left Griffen.

No, what I am saying is to lose the way we have been losing is unforgivable, with a team that has not changed that much from last year. I accept that Hally masked alot.

I didn't expect to even make the finals this year, go back and see the thread on the season predictions. I had us (from memory) around 11th, but I didn't expect to see us play the way we have been playing. Its been deplorable and seemingly with no gameplan. Rocket was accused last year that he had no gameplan or way to get through the forward press, but the coach this year escapes all that criticism from the same posters who attacked Rocket.

I am not astute enough to know what the gameplan is this year, but all I see is us trying possession football, then kicking the hell out of the ball into the forward 50 to no one in particular.

I am with the OP, the coach needs help. I am not saying sack him.

[Ghost Dog]

No, what I am saying is to lose the way we have been losing is unforgivable, with a team that has not changed that much from last year. I accept that Hally masked alot.

I didn't expect to even make the finals this year, go back and see the thread on the season predictions. I had us (from memory) around 11th, but I didn't expect to see us play the way we have been playing. Its been deplorable and seemingly with no gameplan. Rocket was accused last year that he had no gameplan or way to get through the forward press, but the coach this year escapes all that criticism from the same posters who attacked Rocket.

I am not astute enough to know what the gameplan is this year, but all I see is us trying possession football, then kicking the hell out of the ball into the forward 50 to no one in particular.

I am with the OP, the coach needs help. I am not saying sack him.

But isn't the reason we kick it to no one in particular in the fwd50 because we, well, have no one in particular to put there ( a dominant forward )

[bornadog]

Do you need another year of the same stuff for proof?


Yes I do

As a club ledge, we cannot afford to have another year the same.

We had the lowest attendance to games this year since 1996, when we were playing at venues like Whitten Oval that didn't hold many. If we continue to be thrashed by 10 goals every week, we will finish bottom of the ladder, great for draft picks but financially a disaster.

If we are not careful, we will become irrelevant in the eyes of the AFL and the public. The AFL have 18 teams, they want another one in WA and perhaps one in Tassie. The competition is barely able to support 18 teams let alone 20, so guess what will happen.

[bornadog]

How many wins do we need next season to satisfy people?
I would say 10 wins for me. Bare minimum

Agree, ten would be a pass, but the losses should not be beltings either.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

No, what I am saying is to lose the way we have been losing is unforgivable, with a team that has not changed that much from last year. I accept that Hally masked alot.

I didn't expect to even make the finals this year, go back and see the thread on the season predictions. I had us (from memory) around 11th, but I didn't expect to see us play the way we have been playing. Its been deplorable and seemingly with no gameplan. Rocket was accused last year that he had no gameplan or way to get through the forward press, but the coach this year escapes all that criticism from the same posters who attacked Rocket.

I am not astute enough to know what the gameplan is this year, but all I see is us trying possession football, then kicking the hell out of the ball into the forward 50 to no one in particular.

I am with the OP, the coach needs help. I am not saying sack him.

That's rubbish IMO.

Who has blindly supported McCartney? I've been very critical at different times this season of his coaching, particularly early on when the season was still relatively 'fresh'. Most of the other posters 'in question' have done the same.

[bornadog]

That's rubbish IMO.

Who has blindly supported McCartney? I've been very critical at different times this season of his coaching, particularly early on when the season was still relatively 'fresh'. Most of the other posters 'in question' have done the same.

Not rubbish at all. As soon as a negative post is put up there are a number of posters who jump down the throat of that poster.

Everyone has an opinion and it shouldn't get personal, just stick to the footy. (not you by the way, talking in general)

[KT31]

IMO the coach has been very ordinary this season, hoping he can be compared to Clarkeson the year before the Hawks flag.
He taught crab footy before they learnt attack, but then again he had Buudy and Hodge to bail him out.

[kruder]

Sounds like Ling wants to coach. Would anyone take him as Montys replacement?

[azabob]

Sounds like Ling wants to coach. Would anyone take him as Montys replacement?

Yes.

[Maddog37]

In a heart beat!!!!!!!

[LostDoggy]

Fast reaction time, running from behind, running to set up, running in numbers both ways, running to create space, kicking accurately to position……these are the hallmarks of good teams. Getting the structures right for all situations.

It seems obvious to me that we didn't have the cattle, durability or maturity to be able to do this for any length of time. We could do it for quarters and we looked reasonable and could score goals, but when sides got the ball from us (or we just gave to them), we often could not stop the spread and the fast lead.

We could have played a dour, clogged up game and maybe not have lost by as much. But I think we have to look at the bigger picture here and see what is possible in the future with the continued development of Libba, Wallis, Dahlhaus, Jong and hopefully picks 5 or 6 into A graders.

We could only sustain good footy for patches of time. Too many players standing still, not running from behind in numbers. Players became lost, or were stuffed, or didn't follow instructions. Easier, physically, to play static footy. We haven't got the durability to do the leg work to get numbers running both ways for long enough. Neither did we have the sureness of playing with each other for years so as to know exactly where to be to keep the chain going so as to score. This often meant hand balling to the wrong position, hand balling to someone who can't get out, or not having sufficient support and so on.

But by far the worst aspect of our game was our appalling skills. We just gave up the ball too easily. Serious work has to be done on getting elite users of the ball into our side.

Is it the coach's fault that we didn't have the cattle, the experience or the maturity to play sustained footy like Geelong or Hawthorn?

Very shortsighted to believe so.

We just never had a settled line up.

And to be successful, we will need a settled team, one that has depth and has played together at both VFL and AFL.

What Macca is trying to do is to give us that…..by starting again and building up with players who have the attitude to be fiercely competitive to keep learning to be better and better. So the foundations are set in years 1 and 2, and by years 3 and 4 we should start to see success of all that experience and learning. That's the theory, and it should work provided you believe you have/get the talent to make it work.

I have faith that this is the right way to go. To call for the coach's head is to not understand the concept of sorting out the foundations on which to build the house.

[Ghost Dog]

I like the above comments. I do agree. However, some minor things worry me to think the coach has no clue. Skinner as sub? Roughead as sub? I would have rather have some battler from the VFL as long as they could run hard and tackle. Our rubbish kick ins. Basic things. Worry! Chalk this year up as learning for all involved. But as Sedat said, that line will wear thin very fast if we continue to gas out in second halves 2013.

[Sockeye Salmon]

We could have played a dour, clogged up game and maybe not have lost by as much.


And this is my problem with him. WE DID!

And we still got smashed by 10 goals plus 8 or 9 times?


We played boring, lock down, Ross Lyon footy and still got smashed. In the quest for fairness, I only want McCartney sacked, I wanted Ross Lyon killed (see, I'm a Bulldog softee at heart).


FFS, we only have two creative players on the list and one of them spent the entire year playing as a lock down defender.

[westdog54]

FFS, we only have two creative players on the list and one of them spent the entire year playing as a lock down defender.

Whose disposal was downright disgraceful at times...

[bornadog]

Whose disposal was downright disgraceful at times...

Should never have played in the roles he did, we lost all our attack from the backline.

[jeemak]

Should never have played in the roles he did, we lost all our attack from the backline.

Well I guess without knowing the motives of the coaching panel throughout the year it's pretty hard to make a call on their level of compentency on the basis of where Murphy played isn't it?

If you look at the personnel issues we faced in defense this year, with Morris being out injured and Hargrave being out through form or injury for large portions of the season there wasn't many alternatives to Murphy to play the lock down role on quick and crafty fowards, was there?

I understand we lost our drive due to Murphy having a more defensive mindset, but the coaching panel would have been equally lambasted if we didn't have Murphy doing a solid defensive job most weeks.

[immortalmike]

I can say with certainty I've enjoyed many a match alongside Chops and Sockeye, its actually a rather enjoyable day out believe it or not.:)

I'd imagine it'd be like going to the theatre with Statler and Waldorf...

[bornadog]

Well I guess without knowing the motives of the coaching panel throughout the year it's pretty hard to make a call on their level of compentency on the basis of where Murphy played isn't it?

If you look at the personnel issues we faced in defense this year, with Morris being out injured and Hargrave being out through form or injury for large portions of the season there wasn't many alternatives to Murphy to play the lock down role on quick and crafty fowards, was there?

I understand we lost our drive due to Murphy having a more defensive mindset, but the coaching panel would have been equally lambasted if we didn't have Murphy doing a solid defensive job most weeks.

All Australian HBF, shafted.

[jeemak]

All Australian HBF, shafted.

Who would you have played on the quick and crafty forwards, if Murphy was to be played in a more creative role?

Picken could have been used, but that opens up another issue in our midfield...........

[Ghost Dog]

Whose disposal was downright disgraceful at times...

I take your point Jeemak, we were short staffed down there, but in terms of actual kick-in accuracy...... I could be wrong ( maybe it was just the games I saw ) and a few incidents can tell a different story from the stats. But Murph didn't have the best disposal this season.

Anyway, can we replace 'Cracking in' with 'Clean hands'?

Has the coach accepted his role in the losses re match ups and failure to react, or is it being swept under the 'education' carpet?

[Ghost Dog]

I'd imagine it'd be like going to the theatre with Statler and Waldorf...

Good Call!! LOL:D or Patty and Selma Simpson

[bornadog]

Who would you have played on the quick and crafty forwards, if Murphy was to be played in a more creative role?

Picken could have been used, but that opens up another issue in our midfield...........

We robbed Peter to pay Paul.

We could have tried a number of options, Wood, Howard, Pearce, Addison were all tried at some stage. I really think we lost a lot of drive from the backline when Murphy was stuck on blokes like the Tiprat, etc. His dash and flare was what we missed.

[Sockeye Salmon]

We robbed Peter to pay Paul.

We could have tried a number of options, Wood, Howard, Pearce, Addison were all tried at some stage. I really think we lost a lot of drive from the backline when Murphy was stuck on blokes like the Tiprat, etc. His dash and flare was what we missed.

I think Smith could end up a lock down defender

[bornadog]

I think Smith could end up a lock down defender

He played that role a bit in the second half last week and did well.

[jeemak]

We robbed Peter to pay Paul.

We could have tried a number of options, Wood, Howard, Pearce, Addison were all tried at some stage. I really think we lost a lot of drive from the backline when Murphy was stuck on blokes like the Tiprat, etc. His dash and flare was what we missed.

I think the issue is that none of Wood, Howard, Pearce or Addison had the nouse or physical attributes to run with the best forwards in the competition, and that Wood and Howard in particular would have been expected to shoulder some of the responsibility for run and carry. Unfortunately these guys only played a few good games between them.

For mine it shows how important Morris' versatility is (or was), much the same as having a fit and firing Hargrave and Gilbee in releasing Bob to play a creative role.

Your idea in developing Smith as a defender isn't a bad one, though he's going to need a lot of support around him due to his kicking deficiencies.

If it's not Smith, somebody else needs to be relied upon to step up and shut down the better forwards, as I think we all agree we move the ball better when Bob has some freedom.

[jeemak]

I take your point Jeemak, we were short staffed down there, but in terms of actual kick-in accuracy...... I could be wrong ( maybe it was just the games I saw ) and a few incidents can tell a different story from the stats. But Murph didn't have the best disposal this season.

Anyway, can we replace 'Cracking in' with 'Clean hands'?

Has the coach accepted his role in the losses re match ups and failure to react, or is it being swept under the 'education' carpet?

Murphy let himself down with some of his kicking. Tough gig trying to find viable options a lot of the time, but some of his efforts were disappointing.

As for your last question, how would we know? It's probably one of those point of view, glass half empty type things. Whatever he says, some are going to bag him and some are going to support him, aren't they?

[bornadog]

If it's not Smith, somebody else needs to be relied upon to step up and shut down the better forwards, as I think we all agree we move the ball better when Bob has some freedom.

Perhaps JJ

[Ghost Dog]

I take your point Jeemak, we were short staffed down there, but in terms of actual kick-in accuracy...... I could be wrong ( maybe it was just the games I saw ) and a few incidents can tell a different story from the stats. But Murph didn't have the best disposal this season.

Anyway, can we replace 'Cracking in' with 'Clean hands'?

Has the coach accepted his role in the losses re match ups and failure to react, or is it being swept under the 'education' carpet?

Murphy let himself down with some of his kicking. Tough gig trying to find viable options a lot of the time, but some of his efforts were disappointing.

As for your last question, how would we know? It's probably one of those point of view, glass half empty type things. Whatever he says, some are going to bag him and some are going to support him, aren't they?

True enough. I'd like to know how the players feel at this point.

[Topdog]

Did someone really suggest that we dont play a dour locked down game?

[The Underdog]

Perhaps JJ

At the moment JJ looks like the only player capable of taking over the traditional Murphy half back role. His use of the footy and run was tremendous in a couple of games. Pearce is another possible for a lock down small defender. While I wasn't impressed with him initially, I thought started to really show some ability and composure before his injury. Lack of pace may be his enemy though.

[Mofra]

At the moment JJ looks like the only player capable of taking over the traditional Murphy half back role. His use of the footy and run was tremendous in a couple of games. Pearce is another possible for a lock down small defender. While I wasn't impressed with him initially, I thought started to really show some ability and composure before his injury. Lack of pace may be his enemy though.
Agree with Pearce - looked slow at AFL level, has all the other attributes though.

JJ reminded me of Harbrow a little, runs the ball first when rebounding. He's exactly the type of small defender we need so hoping for a big pre-season from him. With Murphy likely to suffer a decline, we may be relying on JJ & Wood to provide our HB rebound next year - heart in the mouth stuff already.

[stefoid]

Just in this whole 'educating the coach' thing. Do you reckon its reasonable to try to improve every aspect of a gameplan in 12 months? Or, do you take a strategic view and concentrate on the more serious deficiencies in the first 12 months with a view to not overloading the players with too much to learn at once? Do one thing well, before moving on to the next thing.

This year we have done nothing except worry about how to win the ball in close, and get it back when we dont. defence, defence, defence.

Next year we need to retain our defensive ability (for the entire game), but add to it a strong offensive focus when we do have the ball - spreading from the contest, running to the rights spots, transitions, forward setup, etc...etc...

Fingers crossed, this will mean rejuvination for inherently attacking players like Sherman and our forwards who have been crucified this year.

I believe this has been the plan all along - a multi-year focus on getting the team to play how mac wants us to play, rather than trying to achieve the highest spot on the ladder we possibly could in 2012, which wouldnt have been good enough it make the finals anyway.

And to be fair, Mac gave this indication from the start with his conetsted ball and defence mantras. Never deviated from that. Never said we were going to win heaps of games. The only way his speil and reality have parted ways is that he said we were going to be very tough to play against, when in fact we have been easy beats in the 2nd half of the season. Giving up large scores against in the 2nd halves of games.

Fielding a lot of inexperienced players in key roles as the season progressed would be one significant reasons for that decline. Another would simply be that it is very hard mentally to get up for a 110% effort when you are down the bottom of the ladder with no hope of making the finals.

Next year I expect to hear a message about maintaining contested ball and defensive attitude, combined with a strong atacking flair and the players in a refreshed mindset and hoping to make the finals.

[Mofra]

I believe this has been the plan all along - a multi-year focus on getting the team to play how mac wants us to play, rather than trying to achieve the highest spot on the ladder we possibly could in 2012, which wouldnt have been good enough it make the finals anyway.
I also believe this has always been the case, however fans must have been confused when at board level there was talk of a "refresh not a rebuild".

B-Mac is clearly in rebuild phase, startign with educating players on what he blieves are teh basic non-negotiatbles on how to play the game. Given media performances of the players, at least from the outside lookign in the younger players are buying in to his mantra.

[cambo]

Honestly, if that wasn't the worst season of football I've ever sat through then I don't know what was. The Hart years and Rhode years weren't as bad, surely. At least we played football and not the tripe we served up this year.

Here's a couple of gripes,

1. If we use the 2012 gameplan as our future blueprint then we should change our name from the Bulldogs to the Crabs. All this bloody sideways movement. Keep chipping sideways (or backwards) until we lose it, then they score and we do it all again!! For God sake how about going forward and having a go. How about having someone in the forward half?

2. When the opposition playmaker is cutting us to pieces a la Daniel Rich how about assigning our best tagger, or anybody for that matter, to him to try and stop him rather than continue to allow him to roam free in acres of space and allow him to continue cutting us to pieces.

I could go on but what's the point?

I'm sick of excuses about educating players, bad list management etc. We are not as bad as what we have been serving up.

Had a gut full!

Well Said!! could not agree with you more