Bring Me Fantasia's Head.

[The Doctor]

Someone has to be accountable for the atrocity that was the 2012 season.

James Fantasia has been at the club for 5 years and what has he achieved? Nothing.

The objective of the Football Dept head is to deliver a premiership. The head of that dept has that responsibility. The responsibilities include, but are not limited to, managing the list & appointing coaches. I would argue we have the worst list in the comp going forward and on current viewing perhaps the most inept coaching dept. The Football Dept has to be accountable for this mess. Fantasia is responsible for this. His 5 years of mismanagement has led us to the plight we are in.

It is time for James Fantasia to go.

If Simon Garlick and David Smorgon don't have the balls to do something about it then they should go as well.

[Go_Dogs]

I don't like to lay the blame at one individual's feet, but it's near impossible to raise a counter argument. Further change is required in a lot of areas, and hopefully we have the resolve to make a number of tough decisions both playing list and football department wise over the coming weeks.

[immortalmike]

Who do you suggest for his job? Not being smart but I'm not a fan of raising an issue and not offering a solution...

[jeemak]

You can't judge the 2012 season until you see who we delist, and who we hang on to.

We've been hurt by injury, we've also played players that would be otherwise lucky to get a game without those injuries.

We've also tried to develop players ahead of time.

Happy for you to reinvent a good four or five threads on this board if that's what you want to do to make yourself feel better, but I think you'd be best off waiting to see how the dust settles mate.

[LostDoggy]

I don't like to lay the blame at one individual's feet, but it's near impossible to raise a counter argument. Further change is required in a lot of areas, and hopefully we have the resolve to make a number of tough decisions both playing list and football department wise over the coming weeks.

Yet the blame of 2011 went on one mans feet.

[Go_Dogs]

Yet the blame of 2011 went on one mans feet.

And most thought more changes were required then, this season has only reinforced that. We've long been masters of band-aid solutions - we need to go all out to secure a big name with proven results - no "stay the course" or cheap as chips options.

I wonder if Balme wants a big challenge?

[LostDoggy]

Yet the blame of 2011 went on one mans feet.

Was Eade "blamed" for 2011 or was he sacked for not getting that squad to a GF in '08 '09 '10?
He peaked the team through this period and didn't get them over the line. Now they were on the way back down that was the reason Smorgo ar$ed him? Rebuild with the next coach.
Just a thought.

[Sedat]

Who do you suggest for his job? Not being smart but I'm not a fan of raising an issue and not offering a solution...
My thoughts on Fantasia are well-known so I can't really add any more to what The Doc has suggested. To be honest we worked more effectively without a head of football from 2005-2008, when Scott Clayton managed both recruiting and player contract negotiations. There are so many errors that have transpired in the last 3-4 years under Fantasia's watch so it's not worth going over old ground. Suffice to say that on every conceibvable measurement, James Fantasia has been an abject failure in his role and should be one of the first people to go at the end of the season.

I'd personally go after someone like Steven Icke to replace him. He ran a sound footy dept at Carlton until a personality clash with Ratten meant he had to go. He is a very experienced footy administrator who is measured, methodical and would not be spooked by other clubs nor by footy managers and their ambit claims. That last point alone would be a vast improvement on what Fantasia has brought to the table.

[Greystache]

Yet the blame of 2011 went on one mans feet.

Garbage, this line gets thrown out all the time and it's utter crap.

3 of the 4 senior coaches got moved on last year, the other had a contact and will be gone this year. The only coach who kept/will keep his job was Peter German who got his team into the grand final.

McCartney, King, Grant, and Smith are all new additions this season.

[Sedat]

Garbage, this line gets thrown out all the time and it's utter crap.

3 of the 4 senior coaches got moved on last year, the other had a contact and will be gone this year. The only coach who kept/will keep his job was Peter German who got his team into the grand final.
Peter Dean definitely got flicked but Paul Williams left of his own accord and went to Carlton.

[Greystache]

Peter Dean definitely got flicked but Paul Williams left of his own accord and went to Carlton.

Jumped before pushed, Montgomery will be gone shortly too.

[boydogs]

I hope we're tanking, not going to be a fun few years if that's the best we've got.

[immortalmike]

My thoughts on Fantasia are well-known so I can't really add any more to what The Doc has suggested. To be honest we worked more effectively without a head of football from 2005-2008, when Scott Clayton managed both recruiting and player contract negotiations. There are so many errors that have transpired in the last 3-4 years under Fantasia's watch so it's not worth going over old ground. Suffice to say that on every conceibvable measurement, James Fantasia has been an abject failure in his role and should be one of the first people to go at the end of the season.

I'd personally go after someone like Steven Icke to replace him. He ran a sound footy dept at Carlton until a personality clash with Ratten meant he had to go. He is a very experienced footy administrator who is measured, methodical and would not be spooked by other clubs nor by footy managers and their ambit claims. That last point alone would be a vast improvement on what Fantasia has brought to the table.

Wasn't Fantasia appointed in 07 just before our (relative) boom period? Not saying there is a link there but I think I remember it happening that way. I probably agree that James has served his purpose and it might be time for an amicable split but I'm at a loss for a replacement.

Icke hmm...was he in charge during the Maclean debacle. Could we afford him?

[FrediKanoute]

I think something has to happen. Personally I thought Eade should have had the opportunity to rebuild and was disappointed that the club didn't give him that opportunity. That said, I think Macca's appointment is not a bad thing, but he has a lot to learn. I can't help but feel that much of what we saw this year was part of a bigger plan. he certainly carried on Eade's plan to introduce and play the younger guys, even giving time where it was clearly not warranted.

That said, we are where we are today mainly because of the decisions made by the football department over the last 5 years. Macca has to work with the cattle he has and he can't just magic a gun forward out of thin air. We have been poor in recruiting; poor in developing; poor in list managing; and poor in trading.

We have allowed good players that we developed to be poached and even now will allow Big Will to be taken as a free agent. We haven't coped with the rule change re sub's and have been guilty of holding on to players 1 to 2 seasons to long.

There is much work to be done.

[Desipura]

Eade has coached the longest without winning a premiership, he may yet get an opportunity at Port and would have to accept it as I cannot see any other team knocking down the door.
They made mention of Malthouse having one premiership in 16 years, he also got Collingwood to 2 losing grand finals, Eade has only coached in one. His time was up with us, a very good coach who unfortunately did not get us the ultimate prize (along with many others)

[LostDoggy]

Again the defenders of Fantasia point to Eade.

[LostDoggy]

Garbage, this line gets thrown out all the time and it's utter crap.

3 of the 4 senior coaches got moved on last year, the other had a contact and will be gone this year. The only coach who kept/will keep his job was Peter German who got his team into the grand final.

McCartney, King, Grant, and Smith are all new additions this season.

So Eade's assistants underneath him got blamed too!
Recruiting was fine, list management and contracts great, no problems from president or CEO.
All stems from one bloke really.

[wb_age]

When the question about his replacement looms, IIRC the only reason Fantasia's position and hiring was created was pure and simply due to the poor relationship between Cambell Rose and Eade.

Well, they're both gone and we have since hired Jason McCartney as our list manager.

I bid you farewell Fantasia.

[Topdog]

You can't judge the 2012 season until you see who we delist, and who we hang on to.

4th last with a disgusting percentage and obvious holes in the last.

You may need to wait but i certainly don't. The season is officially over we need to react now.

[whythelongface]

4th last with a disgusting percentage and obvious holes in the last.

You may need to wait but i certainly don't. The season is officially over we need to react now.

What is the solution? Is it a coaching problem? Is it a Management problem? Are wholesale changes required to the football club.

Obviously we need a thorough review into the season. This review should be into all aspects of the Football club from Senior Management to the Football Dept. We really need an independent review that can provide us, the members, with a thorough analysis as to where we are at and how do we change our club to become a stronger more sustainable entity as we head into the future.

Unfortunately I can't see us heading down this path as an independent review will probably show up a huge gamut of issues whereby wholesale changes would be required.

I am of the firm opinion that the Head Coach is not too blame for the overall performance of the football club. He has inherited a list that is inexperienced; an ageing list of other key players; poor list management; some long term injuries. Yes there are game day mistakes that have been made but overall we need to support to be able to implement change to the club from a football department perspective. He has a plan and plans take time to develop whether it be 2, 3 or 4 years. There, however, needs to be significant improvement in our list next year. This improvement does not just stem from the no. of wins it really should be based on whether there has been significant improvement in the development of our players. This needs to be thoroughly assessed at the end of next year. If then it is found that we have not improved significantly then we need to assess the Head Coach's position.

Where is the leadership within the club? Where are Smorgon and Garlick? We hear little from these guys especially regarding the future strategic direction of the club. How are we placed financially? We all know that we have struggled financially, but has our situation become worse due to the significant loss of revenue due to reduced memberships. Of course performance on the football field has a huge impact on membership retention, however other teams often go through transition phases where their teams underperform or are woeful, yet they don't seem to have the same amount of membership decline as us (this is a broad assumption - not sure how true a statement). It will be interesting to review our financial statements once they are released.

For the best interests of the club and to ensure its longer term viability David Smorgon needs to step down immediately, not at the end of 2013. We can't afford another season like this. We need new direction from the top. As much as Smorgon has done an overall decent job it is time for change. We need to someone to give the football club an overhaul and provide the leadership it so desperately requires.

[ledge]

What is the solution? Is it a coaching problem? Is it a Management problem? Are wholesale changes required to the football club.

Obviously we need a thorough review into the season. This review should be into all aspects of the Football club from Senior Management to the Football Dept. We really need an independent review that can provide us, the members, with a thorough analysis as to where we are at and how do we change our club to become a stronger more sustainable entity as we head into the future.

Unfortunately I can't see us heading down this path as an independent review will probably show up a huge gamut of issues whereby wholesale changes would be required.

I am of the firm opinion that the Head Coach is not too blame for the overall performance of the football club. He has inherited a list that is inexperienced; an ageing list of other key players; poor list management; some long term injuries. Yes there are game day mistakes that have been made but overall we need to support to be able to implement change to the club from a football department perspective. He has a plan and plans take time to develop whether it be 2, 3 or 4 years. There, however, needs to be significant improvement in our list next year. This improvement does not just stem from the no. of wins it really should be based on whether there has been significant improvement in the development of our players. This needs to be thoroughly assessed at the end of next year. If then it is found that we have not improved significantly then we need to assess the Head Coach's position.

Where is the leadership within the club? Where are Smorgon and Garlick? We hear little from these guys especially regarding the future strategic direction of the club. How are we placed financially? We all know that we have struggled financially, but has our situation become worse due to the significant loss of revenue due to reduced memberships. Of course performance on the football field has a huge impact on membership retention, however other teams often go through transition phases where their teams underperform or are woeful, yet they do seem to have the same amount of membership decline as us (this is a broad assumption - not sure how true a statement). It will be interesting to review our financial statements once they are released.

For the best interests of the club and to ensure its longer term viability David Smorgon needs to step down immediately, not at the end of 2013. We can't afford another season like this. We need new direction from the top. As much as Smorgon has done an overall decent job it is time for change. We need to someone to give the football club an overhaul and provide the leadership it so desperately requires.

Finanacially the club expects to make a profit again as it has done in the last few years.

[bornadog]

There will be a review but it won't be as extensive as posters want it to be. The review will focus on players to keep and delist etc. The club is thinking of the longer term and will point to the fact that we have debuted 19 players in two years and we need to build from the bottom up and not find short term solutions.

[whythelongface]

There will be a review but it won't be as extensive as posters want it to be. The review will focus on players to keep and delist etc. The club is thinking of the longer term and will point to the fact that we have debuted 19 players in two years and we need to build from the bottom up and not find short term solutions.

The crux of the problem is that the review is only of the football department and not the club as a whole.

[LostDoggy]

"Of course performance on the football field has a huge impact on membership retention, however other teams often go through transition phases where their teams underperform or are woeful, yet they don't seem to have the same amount of membership decline as us (this is a broad assumption - not sure how true a statement)"

Those teams have had success, I still dont call finals appearance as success. You take Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon, they have bad runs and still post 40k members...Why, they have a culture of success - that is GF appearance. Until that happens we will always be cellar dwellers and have our hands out to the AFL saying "more please".

[ledge]

"Of course performance on the football field has a huge impact on membership retention, however other teams often go through transition phases where their teams underperform or are woeful, yet they don't seem to have the same amount of membership decline as us (this is a broad assumption - not sure how true a statement)"

Those teams have had success, I still dont call finals appearance as success. You take Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon, they have bad runs and still post 40k members...Why, they have a culture of success - that is GF appearance. Until that happens we will always be cellar dwellers and have our hands out to the AFL saying "more please".

Sick of it bring called a hand out it is an equalisation payment that most teams get due to the unevenness of Anzac day etc that only certain clubs play every year. Each club gets an amount according to the draw. Also with the media rights no club is in trouble of being extinct unless they internally do things extremely wrong. Their has to be a certain amount of teams in the competition for the rights to be honoured.

The AFL owns all clubs and watches over how they all run, they tried privatising years ago and it was proved it doesn't work look at the EPL.

[Maddog37]

Sack everyone. Whinge, moan and point the finger. Someone's head must role. We need someone to blame and unless we see blood on the floor we are accepting mediocrity.

Bring back Rocket, Sack Fantasia as he hasn't had a kick all year. Go out and recruit some b grade forward, maybe Fev or a bush legend who is the next Pods.

We need to go out and recruit more DJs and Vez types as we have a gap in the list of that age. Who cares if they can't play as long as they are the right age. Short term fixes are the way to go. Sydney do it and it works for them.

Trade all of our young talls as they are not champions yet. Doesn't matter that they have played bugger all games and are not even filled out yet, they need to do more.

Boyd, Wallis, Libba and Smith are too slow and can't kick. We need more Ryan Lonie types that are scared of their own shadow. They can't get the ball but if they do they will kick it beautifully.

Have I missed anything? Good because now I am gonna go and kick the dog because even though he didn't have anything to do with anything he is still a dog and surely must take some of the blame.

[LostDoggy]

You call it equalizastion, everyone else calls it a hand out...lets face it if we had 40k members we would get very very little...ala C'wood.

Like it or not we are getting assistance from AFL (special assistance) to stay alive, we cant stand on our own two feet at this time....30k members will not do it and you cant live from year to year wishing that the TV right deals get higher.

[ledge]

Sack everyone. Whinge, moan and point the finger. Someone's head must role. We need someone to blame and unless we see blood on the floor we are accepting mediocrity.

Bring back Rocket, Sack Fantasia as he hasn't had a kick all year. Go out and recruit some b grade forward, maybe Fev or a bush legend who is the next Pods.

We need to go out and recruit more DJs and Vez types as we have a gap in the list of that age. Who cares if they can't play as long as they are the right age. Short term fixes are the way to go. Sydney do it and it works for them.

Trade all of our young talls as they are not champions yet. Doesn't matter that they have played bugger all games and are not even filled out yet, they need to do more.

Boyd, Wallis, Libba and Smith are too slow and can't kick. We need more Ryan Lonie types that are scared of their own shadow. They can't get the ball but if they do they will kick it beautifully.

Have I missed anything? Good because now I am gonna go and kick the dog because even though he didn't have anything to do with anything he is still a dog and surely must take some of the blame.

Love it ^^^

[whythelongface]

"Of course performance on the football field has a huge impact on membership retention, however other teams often go through transition phases where their teams underperform or are woeful, yet they don't seem to have the same amount of membership decline as us (this is a broad assumption - not sure how true a statement)"

Those teams have had success, I still dont call finals appearance as success. You take Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon, they have bad runs and still post 40k members...Why, they have a culture of success - that is GF appearance. Until that happens we will always be cellar dwellers and have our hands out to the AFL saying "more please".

What about Richmond? They haven't had success in what 32 years - a generation and a half ago - yet they still have a membership base of 40K this year. What is their secret? Is it support that follows the family line from Grandparents to parents to children? This is simply a question to find out how they continue to hold onto and even increase their membership despite years of mediocricy.

[LostDoggy]

What about Richmond? They haven't had success in what 32 years - a generation and a half ago - yet they still have a membership base of 40K this year. What is their secret? Is it support that follows the family line from Grandparents to parents to children? This is simply a question to find out how they continue to hold onto and even increase their membership despite years of mediocricy.

There success is the ability to always finish ninth.....

[The Underdog]

There success is the ability to always finish ninth.....

Unsuccessful year then, finishing 12th.

I'd be more than happy to see Fantasia on the way out, although J. McCartney's list management position may help lessen the errors of the past. If he's any good at it that is.
Our list management and drafting this year will be absolutely critical. First step is getting the early first round picks right, but we need a really good percentage of our picks this year to work out. This is a critical career defining year for Dalrymple.

[jeemak]

4th last with a disgusting percentage and obvious holes in the last.

You may need to wait but i certainly don't. The season is officially over we need to react now.

Yeah, let's not wait until we turn the list over. The results won't provide any insight in to why we played the way we did, and who we played will it?

There's nothing to gain from being considered in our approach is there?

[Remi Moses]

You call it equalizastion, everyone else calls it a hand out...lets face it if we had 40k members we would get very very little...ala C'wood.

Like it or not we are getting assistance from AFL (special assistance) to stay alive, we cant stand on our own two feet at this time....30k members will not do it and you cant live from year to year wishing that the TV right deals get higher.

Most teams are getting a "handout" now.
Probably the only sport in the world where you get more backsides on seats and lose money, yet you can get less at a game and make more!

[Topdog]

Sack everyone. Whinge, moan and point the finger. Someone's head must role. We need someone to blame and unless we see blood on the floor we are accepting mediocrity..

nah mate you are right, everything is rosy and people on this board haven't been highlighting the problems for over 2 years now with Fantasia. Our coach has done a superb job to lead us to a % of 65. Top work all round, everyone should be proud of themselves.

Port Adelaide who are seen as a basketcase of a club with no future on the field and who debuted a lot of players as well lost 1 game by more than 10 goals. We lost 7. Melbourne lost 6.

[Maddog37]

I was being serious.

It is a proven fact that the more bitching and moaning you do on a footy forum with no positive suggestions, the better your team gets.

I also think we should unseat the entire board and change the name back to Footscray.

[whythelongface]

I was being serious.

It is a proven fact that the more bitching and moaning you do on a footy forum with no positive suggestions, the better your team gets.

I also think we should unseat the entire board and change the name back to Footscray.

I would prefer that (only because I much prefer the name), however from a strategic perspective would that be in the best interests for the club. Have we really captured the western region using the term "Western Bulldogs"? Seems to me that our marketing has been less than impressive considering our membership numbers. Anyway this is old ground and has been discussed for years. However it could be time to reignite the debate (on a separate thread).

[The Underdog]

I would prefer that (only because I much prefer the name), however from a strategic perspective would that be in the best interests for the club. Have we really captured the western region using the term "Western Bulldogs"? Seems to me that our marketing has been less than impressive considering our membership numbers. Anyway this is old ground and has been discussed for years. However it could be time to reignite the debate (on a separate thread).

It really isn't time, at any point , on any thread.

[LostDoggy]

It really isn't time, at any point , on any thread.

Why not, a name change could be good. Having an actual identity may be good, back with the old. I am a fan of the "Western Bulldogs" but also liked "Footscray". It gives a base, an identity and a focal point in the western suburbs where we belong.....I also say lets play games again at the "Western Oval"....ah dreams.:cool:

[whythelongface]

It really isn't time, at any point , on any thread.

Why not? Debates on any topic are good to have. Whether you agree or disagree.

[The Underdog]

Why not? Debates on any topic are good to have. Whether you agree or disagree.

I just think it's old ground that has been gone over so often, I'm not sure there is a new argument that could be raised that would change anything.

[craigsahibee]

Sack everyone. Whinge, moan and point the finger. Someone's head must role. We need someone to blame and unless we see blood on the floor we are accepting mediocrity.

Bring back Rocket, Sack Fantasia as he hasn't had a kick all year. Go out and recruit some b grade forward, maybe Fev or a bush legend who is the next Pods.

We need to go out and recruit more DJs and Vez types as we have a gap in the list of that age. Who cares if they can't play as long as they are the right age. Short term fixes are the way to go. Sydney do it and it works for them.

Trade all of our young talls as they are not champions yet. Doesn't matter that they have played bugger all games and are not even filled out yet, they need to do more.

Boyd, Wallis, Libba and Smith are too slow and can't kick. ]We need more Ryan Lonie types that are scared of their own shadow. They can't get the ball but if they do they will kick it beautifully.[/B]
Have I missed anything? Good because now I am gonna go and kick the dog because even though he didn't have anything to do with anything he is still a dog and surely must take some of the blame.

That's Christian Howard right there. Trade him back home to Port for a case of Farmers Union Iced Coffee.

[Topdog]

I was being serious.

It is a proven fact that the more bitching and moaning you do on a footy forum with no positive suggestions, the better your team gets.

I also think we should unseat the entire board and change the name back to Footscray.

There have been plenty of positive suggestions but you seem far too deep in lala land to notice them.

[LostDoggy]

I was being serious.

It is a proven fact that the more bitching and moaning you do on a footy forum with no positive suggestions, the better your team gets.


Just shut down the entire board down then.

Let's just praise them for a great year instead.

[azabob]

So Eade's assistants underneath him got blamed too!
Recruiting was fine, list management and contracts great, no problems from president or CEO.
All stems from one bloke really.

Clayton is more to blame for our current list / drafting more so than Dalrymple.

[Remi Moses]

Clayton is more to blame for our current list / drafting more so than Dalrymple.

Ahh, finally some common sense. Clayton's got away with blue murder.

[Remi Moses]

Just shut down the entire board down then.

Let's just praise them for a great year instead.

Jesus mate, getting a little stale that line.
Yes and before you reciprocate with " You're to positive " line
I've been critical of our pathetic efforts.
I just don't subscribe to the pitch fork mob mentality

[LostDoggy]

Jesus mate, getting a little stale that line.
Yes and before you reciprocate with " You're to positive " line
I've been critical of our pathetic efforts.
I just don't subscribe to the pitch fork mob mentality

The "be patient it will happen one" is not working either. This forum are two groups, the ones that want change as we see the issues and the other is the apathetic "she be all right mate in the long run" group.

Where is the happy medium.

Do we get blood on the sword and rid us of someone, anyone to make us feel better, if so who (not looking at you Fantasia), or do we just sit back and hope for the best as we always have done.

My views are clear, Chops and I both dont sit on the fence, tell it how it is. The time for a big culture shift is now. We all want success and see it in differing formats.

Human nature says none of us will ever be happy with what we see or get but we must take a stand and make it loud and clear that we expect more. Granted our kids are young and it will come, but at what expense.

I am very concerned about our future, I dont want to be a struggling club anymore.

[jeemak]

Give it a rest Savage.

Just because some of us don't fly off the handle and carry a more positive outlook doesn't mean we're apathetic.

Next you'll be saying we accept mediocrity, just to round things off!

You don't tell how it is, you tell it how you see it. It's vain in the extreme to presume you know how it really is.

[Maddog37]

Just shut down the entire board down then.

Let's just praise them for a great year instead.


That's more like it. I knew you had some positive thoughts in you.

[Maddog37]

There have been plenty of positive suggestions but you seem far too deep in lala land to notice them.



Why thans for the kind words TD.

By the way, might be time to change your sig. It hurts every time I read it.

[Greystache]

The "be patient it will happen one" is not working either. This forum are two groups, the ones that want change as we see the issues and the other is the apathetic "she be all right mate in the long run" group.

Where is the happy medium.

Do we get blood on the sword and rid us of someone, anyone to make us feel better, if so who (not looking at you Fantasia), or do we just sit back and hope for the best as we always have done.

My views are clear, Chops and I both dont sit on the fence, tell it how it is. The time for a big culture shift is now. We all want success and see it in differing formats.

Human nature says none of us will ever be happy with what we see or get but we must take a stand and make it loud and clear that we expect more. Granted our kids are young and it will come, but at what expense.

I am very concerned about our future, I dont want to be a struglling club anymore.

We changed almost the entire coaching group last year, they'll be another change this year. Should we sack a coach every year we don't improve?

The recruiter's only had 3 drafts and we have no idea who will make it out of those players yet. The previous recruiter who was very poor has moved on. Should we sack our current recruiter to make a statement to our previous one?

Maybe we should hire someone and immediately sack him so short sighted supporters will feel better?

We took a lot of short term decisions because it was believed we could win a flag in our cyclical up period, we're paying the price for those decisions now. Most people saw this coming and were critical of tho se decisions at the time. Our drop off this session has been sharp and disappointing, but I believe we are expediting the rebuild process rather than drag it or over several season to keep supporters happy by finishing 10th.

Or of course we could sack Fantasia and the world will be right.

[Sockeye Salmon]

The "be patient it will happen one" is not working either. This forum are two groups, the ones that want change as we see the issues and the other is the apathetic "she be all right mate in the long run" group.

Where is the happy medium.

Do we get blood on the sword and rid us of someone, anyone to make us feel better, if so who (not looking at you Fantasia), or do we just sit back and hope for the best as we always have done.

My views are clear, Chops and I both dont sit on the fence, tell it how it is. The time for a big culture shift is now. We all want success and see it in differing formats.

Human nature says none of us will ever be happy with what we see or get but we must take a stand and make it loud and clear that we expect more. Granted our kids are young and it will come, but at what expense.

I am very concerned about our future, I dont want to be a struggling club anymore.

I don't want change for the sake of change, we did that last year. I want to fix the horrible mistake we made.

[Ghost Dog]

Unsuccessful year then, finishing 12th.
I'd be more than happy to see Fantasia on the way out, although J. McCartney's list management position may help lessen the errors of the past. If he's any good at it that is.
Our list management and drafting this year will be absolutely critical. First step is getting the early first round picks right, but we need a really good percentage of our picks this year to work out. This is a critical career defining year for Dalrymple.

Unsuccessful because of ladder pos? or capitualtion ?
I don't mind a string of very narrow losses. But to lose by so much, so many times can only boil down to three things.
Poor selection, Poor effort (Coaching or playing ) or both.

[LostDoggy]

Clayton is more to blame for our current list / drafting more so than Dalrymple.
If that's the case you can say Clayton brought us to 3 prelims as well.
In 3 Dalrymple drafts how many hits and misses has he had?

[LostDoggy]

Jesus mate, getting a little stale that line.
Yes and before you reciprocate with " You're to positive " line
I've been critical of our pathetic efforts.
I just don't subscribe to the pitch fork mob mentality
If you don't like it don't read it.
I was responding directly to one poster not you.
Not like I'm the only one that's thinks we need a change.

[whythelongface]

Unsuccessful because of ladder pos? or capitualtion ?
I don't mind a string of very narrow losses. But to lose by so much, so many times can only boil down to three things.
Poor selection, Poor effort (Coaching or playing ) or both.

You can add poor list management as well. The coaching team can only do so much with the cattle they have. The coach's biggest issue is that he overstated the list at the start of his reign.

[ledge]

You can add poor list management as well. The coaching team can only do so much with the cattle they have. The coach's biggest issue is that he overstated the list at the start of his reign.

Agree^ also like to add the last recruiter hasn't had a lot to choose from in high draft picks due to us making 3 prelims

[Maddog37]

So bottom line, get rid of Fantasia and the coach and recruiter get one more year to show something.

Is that what people want?

[ledge]

So bottom line, get rid of Fantasia and the coach and recruiter get one more year to show something.

Is that what people want?

I am actually not wanting to sack anyone I want to see how Jason McCartneys choices work out in his first year. They say he is great with recognising talent.

[whythelongface]

So bottom line, get rid of Fantasia and the coach and recruiter get one more year to show something.

Is that what people want?

You can probably divide what people want into a couple categories:

1. Those that want to get rid of Fantasia and McCartney immediately;
2. Those that want to get rid of Fantasia immediately and reassess McCartney's position at the end of next year.

[Maddog37]

Anyone read in the Sun today about a potential board spill due the the unsatisfactory heavy losses?

[ledge]

Anyone read in the Sun today about a potential board spill due the the unsatisfactory heavy losses?

Is that just a reporter making a story or is their facts involved?

[Maddog37]

Page 80. Comment section of super ladder. No detail, I just found it strange to read it in such a throw away manner. John Anderson is the author.

[ledge]

Page 80. Comment section of super ladder. No detail, I just found it strange to read it in such a throw away manner. John Anderson is the author.

Agree if it's true you would imagine it would be a back page job

[Dry Rot]

Back on the OP, can anyone tell me what Fantasia actually does for his pay cheque?

Buggered if I know.

[ledge]

Back on the OP, can anyone tell me what Fantasia actually does for his pay cheque?

Buggered if I know.

Originally he was hired to work between rose and eade and also take the media liaison role so eade could concentrate on coaching more. Not sure what his actual job description is now

[jeemak]

Back on the OP, can anyone tell me what Fantasia actually does for his pay cheque?

Buggered if I know.

Nobody seems to know, but irrespective of that everyone agrees he's doing it poorly! :o

[stefoid]

I don't want change for the sake of change, we did that last year. I want to fix the horrible mistake we made.

I dont know - Mac isnt some bumbling assisant coach raised from obscurity like -- well lets not go there. He has been around successfully for a fair while in some capacity or other.

Seems like everyone who has something to do with him professionally is backing him, so either he is the worlds biggest con and B/S artist, or he actually does know his stuff.

He has a plan, a well articulated plan, to build from the bottom up - and I suspect - has been given instructions to 'concentrate on the process and dont worry so much about the results this year - wink, wink'. He doesnt act like a guy who is under intense pressure from inside the club to make massive changes to the way he is doing things.

Lastly, lets say he has made major mistakes - without bothering to guess what they may be. If he is siwtched on he will certainly already know what they are and take steps to address them next year, you would think. coaches can learn too.

[bornadog]

Back on the OP, can anyone tell me what Fantasia actually does for his pay cheque?

Buggered if I know.

He is in charge of the football department. Therefore, the head coach, recruitment, list management, Medical staff, training and recovery all report to him. Its actually a huge job and really needs someone that is highly professional, experienced sports person with management skills.

I agree with the OP, time for a change.

[Remi Moses]

The "be patient it will happen one" is not working either. This forum are two groups, the ones that want change as we see the issues and the other is the apathetic "she be all right mate in the long run" group.

Where is the happy medium.

Do we get blood on the sword and rid us of someone, anyone to make us feel better, if so who (not looking at you Fantasia), or do we just sit back and hope for the best as we always have done.

My views are clear, Chops and I both dont sit on the fence, tell it how it is. The time for a big culture shift is now. We all want success and see it in differing formats.

Human nature says none of us will ever be happy with what we see or get but we must take a stand and make it loud and clear that we expect more. Granted our kids are young and it will come, but at what expense.

I am very concerned about our future, I dont want to be a struggling club anymore.
So what's your answer?

[Remi Moses]

You can probably divide what people want into a couple categories:

1. Those that want to get rid of Fantasia and McCartney immediately;
2. Those that want to get rid of Fantasia immediately and reassess McCartney's position at the end of next year.

Might as well get Marty Mcfly as coach head back to the 80's and call ourselves Richmond.

[Sockeye Salmon]

I dont know - Mac isnt some bumbling assisant coach raised from obscurity like -- well lets not go there. He has been around successfully for a fair while in some capacity or other.

Seems like everyone who has something to do with him professionally is backing him, so either he is the worlds biggest con and B/S artist, or he actually does know his stuff.

He has a plan, a well articulated plan, to build from the bottom up - and I suspect - has been given instructions to 'concentrate on the process and dont worry so much about the results this year - wink, wink'. He doesnt act like a guy who is under intense pressure from inside the club to make massive changes to the way he is doing things.

Lastly, lets say he has made major mistakes - without bothering to guess what they may be. If he is siwtched on he will certainly already know what they are and take steps to address them next year, you would think. coaches can learn too.

There's a saying that everyone gets promoted to their own level of incompetence - if you are good at something you keep getting promoted until you finally end up at something you're no good at.

Perhaps McCartney is an excellent assistant but not a senior coach.

None of the people giving him references have ever known him to be THE coach.

[bornadog]

Might as well get Marty Mcfly as coach head back to the 80's and call ourselves Richmond.

Remi, you seem to just post a negative view of anyone's suggestions that are not the same as yours.

Tell us, Are you happy with the season? Is Fantasia doing a good job?

[stefoid]

If that's the case you can say Clayton brought us to 3 prelims as well.
In 3 Dalrymple drafts how many hits and misses has he had?

Hes done great with latter picks, nobody can dispute that, but its first and second roudners that make or break a recruiter.

And for those, Dalrymple has had very little ammo to work with due to the F/S situation in one year and the coach overriding his first round pick in the last year with Clay smith, and plus the last draft was compromised anyway, meaning that the picks were well down the order as compared with normal 1st and 2nd round picks.

The Smith and F/S picks might turn out to be gold but Dalrymple cant take the credit or blame for them (well 50% for Smith since he chose the player under orders of the coach)

So what are your opinions on Howard, Tutt, Smith and Talia? Its a mixed bag with Howard being the only one I think we can clearly say there are a number of very good players taken after him.

[Sedat]

Or of course we could sack Fantasia and the world will be right.
I haven't head one person suggest that sacking Fantasia will be the panacea to all of our problems. However, it would be refreshing to see the club aim high and look to get a far more capable operator in charge of our footy dept.

[ledge]

I haven't head one person suggest that sacking Fantasia will be the panacea to all of our problems. However, it would be refreshing to see the club aim high and look to get a far more capable operator in charge of our footy dept.

Is there one? A lot of people blaming fantasia then some don't even know what his job is
If we don't even know what his job is how can anyone say he is doing a bad job or a good one and if that's the case how do you know if their is anyone better ?

[bornadog]

Is there one? A lot of people blaming fantasia then some don't even know what his job is
If we don't even know what his job is how can anyone say he is doing a bad job or a good one and if that's the case how do you know if their is anyone better ?

I think we know he is the head of the football department.


He is in charge of the football department. Therefore, the head coach, recruitment, list management, Medical staff, training and recovery all report to him. Its actually a huge job and really needs someone that is highly professional, experienced sports person with management skills.

I agree with the OP, time for a change.

[Sedat]

Is there one? A lot of people blaming fantasia then some don't even know what his job is
If we don't even know what his job is how can anyone say he is doing a bad job or a good one and if that's the case how do you know if their is anyone better ?
He oversees every aspect of the footy dept, as has been stated several times prior.

So let's break down his performance and look at one of his key roles, that of player contract negotiations and list management - how would you rate his performance in this area? We pay well over the odds to retain Lake (whose manager played Fantasia like a 2nd hand fiddle), we are the only club in the competition to lose 2 starting U-23 players to the expansion clubs through poor negotiating/forwad planning, we needlessly retain veterans like Eagleton, Akermanis and Hahn 1-2 years too long, we upgrade several rookies who have not shown squat at senior AFL level. We give up draft picks like they are candy for players about to be delisted like Djerkurra. There's more but that's a nice list to start off with.

[Greystache]

I think we know he is the head of the football department.

What we don't know is the level of control he exerts over his direct reports. Some would have us believe that nobody but Fantastia had any say over list management, trading, contract negotiation, or list management. Bascially the coaching staff don't do anything other than move the players on match day, and the recruiter give advice on the best available player in type set out by the Head of Football. Obviously that's completely rediculous.

If that was the case then Fantasia needs to be fired purely for a lack of management skills. He is surrounded by people who are supposed to be experts in their designated area, why would people expect him to be the the decision maker in all things football? A good manager should have confidence in their workers and empower them to do their jobs. He may not be a good operator, and some subjective evidence suggest he's not, but the level of blame allocated on Fantasia is out of proportion.

It reminds me of when a rogue trader at a bank breaches internal controls and loses billions in unauthorised trades, the media and average shareholder demands the CEO be sacked. Do they want him sacked because he failed in his duty to prevent the event happening? No, they want him sacked because he's in charge and most people don't know anything about who is directly responsible for what.

[Sedat]

^^^^^^^^

Too easy an out for Fantasia. He is directly responsible for a number of key elements within the footy dept. He and nobody else is directly responsible for player contract negotiations - on this measurable alone, he has grossly underperformed in the last 3 years and should be sacked.

[Greystache]

^^^^^^^^

Too easy an out for Fantasia. He is directly responsible for a number of key elements within the footy dept. He and nobody else is directly responsible for player contract negotiations - on this measurable alone, he has grossly underperformed in the last 3 years and should be sacked.

Should Chris Grant be sacked?

Fantasia is Head of Football Operations, if he is so obviously failing in his duties surely his superior is failing in his responsibility to oversee him.

[jeemak]

^^^^^^^^

Too easy an out for Fantasia. He is directly responsible for a number of key elements within the footy dept. He and nobody else is directly responsible for player contract negotiations - on this measurable alone, he has grossly underperformed in the last 3 years and should be sacked.

What would you say he has done well in his time at the club? Is it all bad news, or do you believe he has had some wins along the way?

I was disappointed in his handling of Ward in particular, and the upgrading of Hooper and Mulligan.

Lake held the club over a barrel and there wasn't a lot the club could have done other than take the action it did. As for the DJ contract and usage of a draft pick when not necessary I don't think it's had a huge impact either way.

[LostDoggy]

Should Chris Grant be sacked?

Fantasia is Head of Football Operations, if he is so obviously failing in his duties surely his superior is failing in his responsibility to oversee him.

For 1 year in the job?

If he is there for 5 years with the same results, I suspect he'll take responsiblity and resign without having to be sacked.

Loved Chris Grant on the field and as captain but not sure why that means he'll always be right as a board member/football director/coach selection panel member anyway?

[AndrewP6]

Seems like everyone who has something to do with him professionally is backing him, so either he is the worlds biggest con and B/S artist, or he actually does know his stuff.

Or... they're wrong?

[whythelongface]

Might as well get Marty Mcfly as coach head back to the 80's and call ourselves Richmond.

Not quite sure what you are getting at, as I have previously stated that I am in support of McCartney and giving him time to develop our list, however moving forward he needs to be assessed on an annual basis to ensure that we are developing both individually and as a team.

[whythelongface]

Or... they're wrong?

Maybe they are but it is too early to tell.

[AndrewP6]

Maybe they are but it is too early to tell.

But not to form an opinion! :)

[whythelongface]

But not to form an opinion! :)

Absolutely. At this stage nobody is right or wrong just that we have differing opinions.

[GVGjr]

Again the defenders of Fantasia point to Eade.

Who is defending Fantasia? Once he is out of contract I think he will have to weave some magic to get another one. The only thing that saved Monty last year was his contract.

[GVGjr]

So bottom line, get rid of Fantasia and the coach and recruiter get one more year to show something.

Is that what people want?

It's not what we should want but it's an expectation that the club makes positive changes. If that means getting new coaches or a different GM of footy operations then we should expect the club to make those decisions.

We are reluctant to pay people out but once their contracts are up we should expect the club to look at what is available in the market. If there are better people then we should look to make the change.

[Remi Moses]

For 1 year in the job?

If he is there for 5 years with the same results, I suspect he'll take responsiblity and resign without having to be sacked.

Loved Chris Grant on the field and as captain but not sure why that means he'll always be right as a board member/football director/coach selection panel member anyway?

He was on the coaching commitee panel that appointed the bloke you want sacked!
More Chops gold:eek:

[Remi Moses]

Not quite sure what you are getting at, as I have previously stated that I am in support of McCartney and giving him time to develop our list, however moving forward he needs to be assessed on an annual basis to ensure that we are developing both individually and as a team.

I agree, pointing out that a few on here who want McCartney out .

[LostDoggy]

Should Chris Grant be sacked?

Chris Grant has about 1000 awesomeness points to use before he can be sacked.

[LostDoggy]

He was on the coaching commitee panel that appointed the bloke you want sacked!
More Chops gold:eek:

? I think I mentioned that already.
Again do you think Chris Grant has never made a mistake?

[Hotdog60]

Chris Grant has about 1000 awesomeness points to use before he can be sacked.

The man walks on water, you will have to hire Judas to fix him up.

[whythelongface]

?
Again do you think Chris Grant has never made a mistake?

Not that I am aware of.:D

[LostDoggy]

Who is defending Fantasia? Once he is out of contract I think he will have to weave some magic to get another one. The only thing that saved Monty last year was his contract.
Do you want me to write the posters names and/or just re-quote the posts?

[Ghost Dog]

Who is defending Fantasia? Once he is out of contract I think he will have to weave some magic to get another one. The only thing that saved Monty last year was his contract.

When is he out of contract? I'll put little sparkly stickers on my calendar.

[Maddog37]

Do you want me to write the posters names and/or just re-quote the posts?

Both please.

[stefoid]

Or... they're wrong?

Someone is wrong, that much is certain.

[Mofra]

Someone is wrong, that much is certain.
Possibly... or it is perhaps too early to tell?

I don't think it is worth sacking a coach after 12 months in the job,especially if he has some form of longer term plan to shape the playing style and playing list.

As for people who have been in their job much longer - it's far easier to make a reasonable judgement as to their performance. Whether good or bad, Fantasia certainly does need to have questions asked of him.

[stefoid]

The people calling for the coach to be sacked could be wrong...

[Dancin' Douggy]

If that's the case you can say Clayton brought us to 3 prelims as well.
In 3 Dalrymple drafts how many hits and misses has he had?

I'm pretty sure the core of the playing group that took us to 3 prelims were already there.
Clayton had way more misses than hits and in my opinion is hugely over rated.

[G-Mo77]

The people calling for the coach to be sacked could be wrong...

No they're right, they're always right just ask them.

[Sedat]

Clayton had way more misses than hits and in my opinion is hugely over rated.
At recruiting yes, at player contract negotiations there's probably nobody better in the AFL.

[Sedat]

Should Chris Grant be sacked?

Fantasia is Head of Football Operations, if he is so obviously failing in his duties surely his superior is failing in his responsibility to oversee him.
One minute you post about the dangers of CEO's being culpable for the errors of their staff, then next minute you suggest Fantasia's boss should be sacked because of Fantasia's errors? Which is is 'stache?

My position on Fantasia is clear. He has been in the role for a number of years and has under-performed dismally IMO. As such I would like to see a much better candidate lured to the club to replace him.

[GVGjr]

Do you want me to write the posters names and/or just re-quote the posts?

I can see little to no support for him at all. Just one or two people challenging the notion that sacking him will fix problems which I think is a fair response.

When things were going pear shaped for Eade last year there was only a couple of people really challenging Fantasia's record but now it's become a real focus by all and sundry.

I don't think Fantasia has performed well but there might be some internal reasons why he hasn't be able to. Hopefully the club can look a bit deeper and make the right call when they have to.

[GVGjr]

At recruiting yes, at player contract negotiations there's probably nobody better in the AFL.

Do we really have the intel to say this with a lot of conviction?
How do we know he does a better job in that area than Stephen Wells and others?

[Redemption97]

None of us know how Fantasia has performed in his role or who is responsible for this horrible season? Absolute speculation and pitch forking by some. We've been up, we weren't good enough after investing everything into that missed shot and now we are down and need to face our rebuild. That is footy.

Sack the coach, blame fantasia and Smorgo. Sometimes I'm more ashamed of our supporters than I am at the fact that this club has only one premiership to its name. All I know is these things aren't that simplistic and can't be lumped on one person. It might make you feel better about your self pity for being a dogs supporter though.

We are all disappointed but this thread is a witch hunt full of negativity and speculation of bitter sad supporters who should do us all a favor and keep their projected bitterness to themselves. My opinion of course.

[Maddog37]

No they're right, they're always right just ask them.

Well they will be right........it is just a matter of when.

[Sedat]

Do we really have the intel to say this with a lot of conviction?
How do we know he does a better job in that area than Stephen Wells and others?
Fair call. Let's then say that under Clayton's watch we lost absolutely nobody we wanted to keep. Can't say the same at all about Fantasia.

[Maddog37]

Losing Ward was a sackable offence in itself.

[GVGjr]

Fair call. Let's then say that under Clayton's watch we lost absolutely nobody we wanted to keep. Can't say the same at all about Fantasia.

Clayton never had to contend with two teams being introduced to the competition either.
I don't doubt he was very good at closing contracts and he was excellent with trade negotiations etc but his reputation as a recruiter for a long while was well above his results and I wonder if he was actually as good as his reputation with contracts?

[Maddog37]

We will find out over the next few years at Gold Coast. Juggling all those stars will be tricky.

[whythelongface]

Losing Ward was a sackable offence in itself.

not defending Fantasia, but do you really think any list manager would have been able to hold back Ward from going to GWS?

[GVGjr]

None of us know how Fantasia has performed in his role or who is responsible for this horrible season? Absolute speculation and pitch forking by some. We've been up, we weren't good enough after investing everything into that missed shot and now we are down and need to face our rebuild. That is footy.



I don't disagree with this but there has been some poor decisions over the last couple of years which have hurt us and these are areas under Fantasia's control.
I don't think Fantasia is 100% to blame for things like rookie promotions that didn't work or the Sherman trade or even some list management decisions with some older guys but a lot of things have led us to where we are now. Fantasia needs to get very busy and make sure we get everything right from here on in.

[F'scary]

The Doctor: you have made reference to John the Baptist in your thread title. Does that make you Salome?

[GVGjr]

not defending Fantasia, but do you really think any list manager would have been able to hold back Ward from going to GWS?

I think the question here is more around that we had an agreement in place with Ward but didn't show a sufficient sense of urgency to get the deal done and it dragged on too long. Once Ward heard the type of dollars he command elsewhere we were behind the 8 ball.

[Greystache]

One minute you post about the dangers of CEO's being culpable for the errors of their staff, then next minute you suggest Fantasia's boss should be sacked because of Fantasia's errors? Which is is 'stache?

My position on Fantasia is clear. He has been in the role for a number of years and has under-performed dismally IMO. As such I would like to see a much better candidate lured to the club to replace him.

I was making a point that people are calling for Fantasia's head because the buck stops with him as head of football operations (not you by the way), using that logic then surely the ultimate head of football should be held accountable.

Holding Chris Grant solely responsible makes about as much sense as holding Fantasia solely responsible.

[whythelongface]

I think the question here is more around that we had an agreement in place with Ward but didn't show a sufficient sense of urgency to get the deal done and it dragged on too long. Once Ward heard the type of dollars he command elsewhere we were behind the 8 ball.

good point. not being up to speed with the contract negotiations so thanks for pointing that out. Just a question - did Ward's management stall negotiations knowing full well that GWS were looking at offering big bucks to a potential superstar on another club's list? if that is the case then Fantasia can't take all the blame for the stalled negotiations.

[Redemption97]

I don't disagree with this but there has been some poor decisions over the last couple of years which have hurt us and these are areas under Fantasia's control.
I don't think Fantasia is 100% to blame for things like rookie promotions that didn't work or the Sherman trade or even some list management decisions with some older guys but a lot of things have led us to where we are now. Fantasia needs to get very busy and make sure we get everything right from here on in.

Yep but this club also has got a lot of things right too. We were so close. Is that already forgotten? For a while there I've never had so much pride and joy as a dogs supporter. It was the same administration that nearly got us there.

I have every confidence we'll get there again. We often point the finger as supporters and that is our right but some of the hysteria is plain ludicrous. I have absolute confidence that the club is doing everything it can to get us a flag.

People lament Ward walking out... Was it the club that failed or the person who was lured by $? Personally for me with so many examples out there of players staying for less I see it as Ward failing us more than an incompetent footy manager.

[GVGjr]

good point. not being up to speed with the contract negotiations so thanks for pointing that out. Just a question - did Ward's management stall negotiations knowing full well that GWS were looking at offering big bucks to a potential superstar on another club's list? if that is the case then Fantasia can't take all the blame for the stalled negotiations.

I'm not 100% certain but I think we could have wrapped up the deal in late 2010. Once it got into 2011 then the deal was becoming far more challenging and worth a lot more that originally talked about.

[bornadog]

I was making a point that people are calling for Fantasia's head because the buck stops with him as head of football operations (not you by the way), using that logic then surely the ultimate head of football should be held accountable.

Holding Chris Grant solely responsible makes about as much sense as holding Fantasia solely responsible.

Sorry, Chris is a volunteer on a board, Fantasia is a paid employee. I would say the buck stops with Garlick, then the whole board.

[bornadog]

I'm not 100% certain but I think we could have wrapped up the deal in late 2010. Once it got into 2011 then the deal was becoming far more challenging and worth a lot more that originally talked about.

You can add losing Harbrow as well, negotiations way too late.

The one I am worried about is Minson, we are very close to the 1st October when he becomes a free agent.

[GVGjr]

You can add losing Harbrow as well, negotiations way too late.

The one I am worried about is Minson, we are very close to the 1st October when he becomes a free agent.

I'll challenge the Harbrow example though.
He stalled negotiations right through the season and for a guy saying he wanted to go home as his primary reason he actually would have stayed with us if GC weren't interested.
I doubt he was interested in going to Brisbane.

Good luck to him and his management for chasing the dollars but the go home reason he supplied wasn't accurate.

It would be a shame to lose Minson.

[Maddog37]

Seems a bit suss BAD. Why no signature from Will?!? Many clubs want a ruckman. Pies and Hawks and maybe even the Cats.

[bornadog]

I'll challenge the Harbrow example though.
He stalled negotiations right through the season and for a guy saying he wanted to go home as his primary reason he actually would have stayed with us if GC weren't interested.
I doubt he was interested in going to Brisbane.

Good luck to him and his management for chasing the dollars but the go home reason he supplied wasn't accurate.

It would be a shame to lose Minson.

We all knew GC and GWS were coming, so we should have planned ahead and signed up the players we wanted to keep.

We have known about free agency for a year or so, we should have stitched up Will earlier. To Will's credit, he has had a very good season and finished with the highest tap outs of any player, and now his currency on the open market is huge because good ruckman are like hens teeth to find. So his negotiating position is in his favour, but should not have allowed this to happen.

[Sockeye Salmon]

not defending Fantasia, but do you really think any list manager would have been able to hold back Ward from going to GWS?


good point. not being up to speed with the contract negotiations so thanks for pointing that out. Just a question - did Ward's management stall negotiations knowing full well that GWS were looking at offering big bucks to a potential superstar on another club's list? if that is the case then Fantasia can't take all the blame for the stalled negotiations.

Ward came to us with a year to run on his contract asking for an extension. We offered him $300K, he wanted closer to $400K.

A year later we were begging him to stay for way more than $400K.

If Clayton was handling that deal Ward wouldn't even have got to speak with GWS.

[KT31]

not defending Fantasia, but do you really think any list manager would have been able to hold back Ward from going to GWS?

If you really new the ins and outs of it, Callan would still be a Dog.

[FrediKanoute]

Ward came to us with a year to run on his contract asking for an extension. We offered him $300K, he wanted closer to $400K.

A year later we were begging him to stay for way more than $400K.

If Clayton was handling that deal Ward wouldn't even have got to speak with GWS.

Its all Mulligan's fault. If we hadn't elevated him we would have given Wardy the extra $100k........

[whythelongface]

If you really new the ins and outs of it, Callan would still be a Dog.

do you know all the "ins and outs" of the whole negotiation process that concerned Ward? i doubt any of us do. i simply asked a question whether or not anyone could have stopped Ward from moving. GVGjr and SS kindly answered my question.

[whythelongface]

Ward came to us with a year to run on his contract asking for an extension. We offered him $300K, he wanted closer to $400K.

A year later we were begging him to stay for way more than $400K.

If Clayton was handling that deal Ward wouldn't even have got to speak with GWS.

thanks for bringing me up to speed on this issue. It certainly appears that Fantasia has failed in a number of areas.

[Guido]

Might as well get Marty Mcfly as coach head back to the 80's and call ourselves Richmond.
You could make that argument for sacking anyone. Anyone. Sacking Rohde a year before his contract expired - "Gee, talk about a Richmond reaction".

Do you want to keep Fantasia? Do you agree that to win a flag, you need one of the top footy managers in the league? On what basis is he among that group?

Failing in securing the club's best young player, two years in a row? The throwing of draft picks away on players who will not make it? The *not* accepting quality offers for Everitt (early second rounder a year before he was traded) or Hill (2nd + 4th round picks a year before he was traded for sweet FA)?

Given that you are essentially bagging anyone who thinks he should be moved on, tell us why he shouldn't be, and why we should entrust the foundation building of the club's future premiership hopes in his hands?

[Mofra]

Its all Mulligan's fault. If we hadn't elevated him we would have given Wardy the extra $100k........
Why? He would have been on base salary, and his spot on the list would have been taken up by another player on base salary.

[Guido]

Who do you suggest for his job? Not being smart but I'm not a fan of raising an issue and not offering a solution...
Pelchen was available last year. Rendell was also available - you can't guarantee he'll be an elite footy manager until he's actually in the role, but comparing him and Fantasia publicly, I know whose knowledge and footy nous I would want in charge of my club's footy department.

Otherwise, there's half a dozen outstanding footy managers out there, and history dictates that a couple of them can be poached. Secure one, or otherwise, offload Fantasia and elevate someone in a pure administrative role (until a top-quality candidate appears) and cut the bullshit that theoretically could have a premiership coach (Malthouse, Matthews, Roos) answerable to an ex-recruiter who has proven nothing in terms of his ability to competently manage a football department (Fantasia).

Just as an example of his decision making, last year, every other club was keeping their compensation pick activation strategy close to their chest until the last possible second, whereas our footy manager is there, months in advance, publicly screaming from the rooftops that we're going to activate the picks because it's a superdraft. a) From reports, it's no longer a "superdraft", so if it turns out to be a ho-hum draft with ho-hum picks, his judgement was off and has left the club with egg on its face; and b) if you're going to activate the picks, wouldn't you do everything within your power to downplay the quality of the draft to turn other clubs off also activating their picks?

The bloke simply does not think things through properly.

[Go_Dogs]

Nice posts Guido, agree with the lot.

[bornadog]

Nice posts Guido, agree with the lot.

ditto

[Cyberdoggie]

Just as an example of his decision making, last year, every other club was keeping their compensation pick activation strategy close to their chest until the last possible second, whereas our footy manager is there, months in advance, publicly screaming from the rooftops that we're going to activate the picks because it's a superdraft. a) From reports, it's no longer a "superdraft", so if it turns out to be a ho-hum draft with ho-hum picks, his judgement was off and has left the club with egg on its face; and b) if you're going to activate the picks, wouldn't you do everything within your power to downplay the quality of the draft to turn other clubs off also activating their picks?

The bloke simply does not think things through properly.

Having said that we aren't really going to wait another year before activating them are we.
We are rebuilding now and the club or the members simply don't have the patience to wait for a possible good year down the track.

It may not be a 'super' year but there will be plenty of good players on offer, and we need to stock up now.

[Guido]

Ward came to us with a year to run on his contract asking for an extension. We offered him $300K, he wanted closer to $400K.

A year later we were begging him to stay for way more than $400K.

If Clayton was handling that deal Ward wouldn't even have got to speak with GWS.
That offer of ours was in JUNE of 2011, and might not have even been $300K.

Direct from Paul Connors in June, when GWS was offering between $750K-$800K p.a.:


Asked if the difference was as much as $400,000 a season, Connors replied: "More. (Their offers) are outrageous.

"If Callan Ward does want to stay at the Dogs, and I hope he does, for guys like him the quantum is huge.

"I can't even believe we're debating that players probably will stay at their clubs even though there's a $500,000 per annum difference. It wouldn't happen in rugby league, but it happens in ... AFL."


Which would indicate that our offer at the time (June 2011, when the whips were cracking and he was genuinely weighing up his options) was between $250K-$300K.

The reality is that the first offer before GWS even had a look in (September 2010 .. y'know, after being the best player on the ground in a prelim at the age of 20) was most likely considerably less than this. Around $250K for the one clear cut elite 22 and under player on the list. And we're weighing up whether to keep the football manager who was overseeing this? When $100k p.a. could have closed the door on GWS altogether and proved the difference between the club keeping it's future captain for life, I think it's fair to ask if the football manager is competent.

I've said it before, given that the salary cap will be well over $11mil by the time his contract expires and that he's already among the top 50 players in the comp (pushing towards top 20), a 4 year/$500Kp.a. contract for Callan Ward would have been seen as one of best value contracts on our list - but the thing is, before the window for GWS legally opened, Ward probably would have signed that contact for $370K-$380K p.a, making it one of the biggest bargains in the league.

One last Fantasia bash to finish off with: a week before Ward gave the club notice of his decision, and when we were coming in with our last offer, an almost direct quote from Fantasia was: "yes, the offer from GWS is around 3, 4 or 5 years, somewhere around there". Over a year into negotiations, and he still has NFI on what he's competing with.

How is this guy employed anywhere, let alone running the football department of a professional sporting club? Listen to his press conferences, listen to his interviews, and listen carefully, if you've got a good grasp of the game and management, there will be at least one "wtf?" moment, absolutely guarantee it.

[Bulldog4life]

Someone has to be accountable for the atrocity that was the 2012 season.

James Fantasia has been at the club for 5 years and what has he achieved? Nothing.

The objective of the Football Dept head is to deliver a premiership. The head of that dept has that responsibility. The responsibilities include, but are not limited to, managing the list & appointing coaches. I would argue we have the worst list in the comp going forward and on current viewing perhaps the most inept coaching dept. The Football Dept has to be accountable for this mess. Fantasia is responsible for this. His 5 years of mismanagement has led us to the plight we are in.

It is time for James Fantasia to go.

If Simon Garlick and David Smorgon don't have the balls to do something about it then they should go as well.

I go to a number of the Cub's AGM's and I have seen very little action from the floor when it is time to asking questions. I hope that you Doc, and the others who agree with you, attend our next AGM and speak up. That is the correct way to do things rather than just bleat on a forum. I will be going to the next one so will be interested to see who on this forum has the balls to do something positive.

[Mofra]

I've said it before, given that the salary cap will be well over $11mil by the time his contract expires and that he's already among the top 50 players in the comp (pushing towards top 20), a 4 year/$500Kp.a. contract for Callan Ward would have been seen as one of best value contracts on our list - but the thing is, before the window for GWS legally opened, Ward probably would have signed that contact for $370K-$380K p.a, making it one of the biggest bargains in the league.

One last Fantasia bash to finish off with: a week before Ward gave the club notice of his decision, and when we were coming in with our last offer, an almost direct quote from Fantasia was: "yes, the offer from GWS is around 3, 4 or 5 years, somewhere around there". Over a year into negotiations, and he still has NFI on what he's competing with.
Nailed it - Ward was willing to stay for less money, but the difference was too huge in the end.

Note Ablett, during a part of Geelong's dominance, was on a 5 year deal of around $250k (signed when he was a promising, if inconsistent HFF) meaning Geelong had the best player in the league playing for them for less than the average AFL wage of circa $300k.

That is a stark difference in list management between us and the top teams - forget football department spend, if we can't get list management right we are no hope, and it is something we take years to recove from.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I go to a number of the Cub's AGM's and I have seen very little action from the floor when it is time to asking questions. I hope that you Doc, and the others who agree with you, attend our next AGM and speak up. That is the correct way to do things rather than just bleat on a forum. I will be going to the next one so will be interested to see who on this forum has the balls to do something positive.

Good points raised here.

[stefoid]

Let us know how the AGM goes B4L.
cheers

[Bulldog4life]

Let us know how the AGM goes B4L.
cheers

Thanks Stef will do. I'm still waiting to find out when it will be. Anyone that goes gets an opportunity to ask "any question" they want. So hopefully some of the supporters who are not happy with certain employees of the Club will do something positive and vent their feelings to the Board rather than just on this forum.It does get boring reading the same comments over and over again by the same posters.

[Guido]

Thanks Stef will do. I'm still waiting to find out when it will be. Anyone that goes gets an opportunity to ask "any question" they want. So hopefully some of the supporters who are not happy with certain employees of the Club will do something positive and vent their feelings to the Board rather than just on this forum.It does get boring reading the same comments over and over again by the same posters.
What kind of quality organisation leaves it to shareholders to bring these issues to their attention at an AGM before they take action? They should have the processes in place to know exactly who is performing and who isn't, what mistakes have been made and who is accountable for them.

As with any AGM, any question of substance will be masterfully deflected, or subtly misconstrued to allow the speaker to get out an answer that is "on message". Most of the key figures in this organisation are master politicians who can spin it with the best of them, Smorgon, Garlick, Fantasia ... just look at any of their pressers. It is a skill that is actually absolutely necessary in a PR sense, however infuriating when you're looking for real analysis and genuine solutions.

Besides, anything of this nature at an AGM will come across as "venting from disgruntled fans". And other than the 300 people there, no-one will hear about the questions or the answers.

And I'd argue that sporting organisations can be very well served by discussion forums such as this - this kind of (free) analysis, bringing together of ideas (often by people more passionate about the organisation than the people that work within it), issues brought to light, outstanding points being made ... granted, it sometimes can be needle in a haystack stuff, but it is a resource which should be cultivated and harnessed, and I'd argue is 100 times more in depth on issues such as this than anything you'll get in a 1 minute question and 2 minute answer at an AGM.

[Bulldog4life]

What kind of quality organisation leaves it to shareholders to bring these issues to their attention at an AGM before they take action? They should have the processes in place to know exactly who is performing and who isn't, what mistakes have been made and who is accountable for them.

As with any AGM, any question of substance will be masterfully deflected, or subtly misconstrued to allow the speaker to get out an answer that is "on message". Most of the key figures in this organisation are master politicians who can spin it with the best of them, Smorgon, Garlick, Fantasia ... just look at any of their pressers. It is a skill that is actually absolutely necessary in a PR sense, however infuriating when you're looking for real analysis and genuine solutions.

Besides, anything of this nature at an AGM will come across as "venting from disgruntled fans". And other than the 300 people there, no-one will hear about the questions or the answers.

And I'd argue that sporting organisations can be very well served by discussion forums such as this - this kind of (free) analysis, bringing together of ideas (often by people more passionate about the organisation than the people that work within it), issues brought to light, outstanding points being made ... granted, it sometimes can be needle in a haystack stuff, but it is a resource which should be cultivated and harnessed, and I'd argue is 100 times more in depth on issues such as this than anything you'll get in a 1 minute question and 2 minute answer at an AGM.

Don't agree. If you are as passionate as you infer make the effort to go to the AGM and ask a few questions. Don't give weak reasons why you shouldn't.

[LongWait]

What kind of quality organisation leaves it to shareholders to bring these issues to their attention at an AGM before they take action? They should have the processes in place to know exactly who is performing and who isn't, what mistakes have been made and who is accountable for them.

As with any AGM, any question of substance will be masterfully deflected, or subtly misconstrued to allow the speaker to get out an answer that is "on message". Most of the key figures in this organisation are master politicians who can spin it with the best of them, Smorgon, Garlick, Fantasia ... just look at any of their pressers. It is a skill that is actually absolutely necessary in a PR sense, however infuriating when you're looking for real analysis and genuine solutions.

Besides, anything of this nature at an AGM will come across as "venting from disgruntled fans". And other than the 300 people there, no-one will hear about the questions or the answers.

And I'd argue that sporting organisations can be very well served by discussion forums such as this - this kind of (free) analysis, bringing together of ideas (often by people more passionate about the organisation than the people that work within it), issues brought to light, outstanding points being made ... granted, it sometimes can be needle in a haystack stuff, but it is a resource which should be cultivated and harnessed, and I'd argue is 100 times more in depth on issues such as this than anything you'll get in a 1 minute question and 2 minute answer at an AGM.

Why don't you write a letter to the CEO or to the Board? Better still, stand for the Board.

[LostDoggy]

Fanta should go and Johno for president.

[Topdog]

By the way, might be time to change your sig. It hurts every time I read it.

I have sigs off for viewing. Had no idea it still said that. Sorry to all.

[Topdog]

Clayton is more to blame for our current list / drafting more so than Dalrymple.

Fantasia is to blame hence this thread!

[Topdog]

One last Fantasia bash to finish off with: a week before Ward gave the club notice of his decision, and when we were coming in with our last offer, an almost direct quote from Fantasia was: "yes, the offer from GWS is around 3, 4 or 5 years, somewhere around there". Over a year into negotiations, and he still has NFI on what he's competing with.

How is this guy employed anywhere, let alone running the football department of a professional sporting club? Listen to his press conferences, listen to his interviews, and listen carefully, if you've got a good grasp of the game and management, there will be at least one "wtf?" moment, absolutely guarantee it.

Sums it up perfectly for me. No idea how he still has a job with us.