Pokies, Hypnosis and AFL

[Ghost Dog]

Last week began with GetUp member, renowned computer engineer, and the first woman and first living person inducted into the Australian ICT hall of fame, Ann Moffatt, speaking out on a Today Tonight segment. Ann revealed for the first time the unbelievable fact that a major poker machine manufacturer, still in business today, employed a team of 10 psychologists to develop pokie machine logic that would be passed on to Ann and her team of programmers to implement. When Ann found out, she terminated her company's relationship with the poker machine client.

Link (http://indymedia.org.au/2012/09/06/pokies-hypnosis)

4 out of 5 problem gamblers are those who only use pokies ( source, Andrew Wilkie )


North Melbourne are the only club in the AFL that rejects the use of pokies outright.

Why can't we follow their lead? In my view, we should. It's a conflict with our efforts to be otherwise community minded, and poor PR for the club to be linked to the revenue source. Never mind that Legislation is about to be introduced that will greatly restrict funds ( greatly affecting the Dogs, Collingwood and West Coast in particular ) clubs can generate using the machines. This will happen, like it or not - we need to be one step ahead and prepare for this.

A good time for fans to register their views. If you're a member or fan and feel as I do, encourage you to write to the club.

[Eastdog]

I know that we have the Peninsula Club in Dromana that is operated by the club. I wonder how much revenue comes from that.

[LostDoggy]

Unethical and poor PR for the club to be linked to the revenue source.

Your opening a can of worms aren't you?
You could put up the same arguments for Alcohol. It is sold to people to make a profit, it is unhealthy, and people can have major problems with it....

Cigarettes, alcohol, gambling is a big industry to wipeout.
Good luck Ghost Dog.

[Eastdog]

Your opening a can of worms aren't you?
You could put up the same arguments for Alcohol. It is sold to people to make a profit, it is unhealthy, and people can have major problems with it....

Cigarettes, alcohol, gambling is a big industry to wipeout.
Good luck Ghost Dog.

Very true HairyMidget. At the end of the day it is a business and we as people make our own choices and have to take responsibility that's not to say we should stop encouraging people from smoking and pokies because they do have affects if you start getting addicted.

[BulldogBelle]

North Melbourne aren't exactly the ideal business model when it comes to financial positioning at this stage, so i'd prefer we focus on the more important issues that are glaring us right in the face.

[chef]

Your opening a can of worms aren't you?
You could put up the same arguments for Alcohol. It is sold to people to make a profit, it is unhealthy, and people can have major problems with it....

Cigarettes, alcohol, gambling is a big industry to wipeout.
Good luck Ghost Dog.

You can add unhealthy food.

[bornadog]

Your opening a can of worms aren't you?
You could put up the same arguments for Alcohol. It is sold to people to make a profit, it is unhealthy, and people can have major problems with it....

Cigarettes, alcohol, gambling is a big industry to wipeout.
Good luck Ghost Dog.

Add to that Macca's. KFC, Red Rooster etc etc

[bornadog]

North Melbourne aren't exactly the ideal business model when it comes to financial positioning at this stage, so i'd prefer we focus on the more important issues that are glaring us right in the face.

Yeah, like how are we going to make a Grand Final, and when

[Ghost Dog]

Your opening a can of worms aren't you?
You could put up the same arguments for Alcohol. It is sold to people to make a profit, it is unhealthy, and people can have major problems with it....

Cigarettes, alcohol, gambling is a big industry to wipeout.
Good luck Ghost Dog.

Who said I was trying to wipeout gambling? I'm talking about how we use it to meet our aims. Pokies are just one of many ways to raise money. This method ( factually ) harms people. We are involved. To throw your hands up and say ' who cares' while other clubs actually prosper without pokies begs the question; are we a community focused organisation?



North Melbourne aren't exactly the ideal business model when it comes to financial positioning at this stage, so i'd prefer we focus on the more important issues that are glaring us right in the face.

Pigs Ars*e. North had the greatest percentage increase of all clubs in membership for 2012
The Kangaroos at least have some guts on this issue. To say their financial management is poor is a factually innacurate. Name one area on the field or off in the past year where we have outperformed them?

Two years ago they were in a worse position than us.

as of 2012 they have successfully entered the Tasmanian market.
Made finals
Grew their membership ( outperforming us )
Made a profit

All without support from pokies.


You can add unhealthy food.
No idea what you are on about. Add unhealthy food to what? Nobody is trying to wipe out anything.

This is a pretty important issue. Wake up Dogs.

[AndrewP6]

I'm with GD on this one. No one said "Get rid of pokies, alcohol and smoking." THe point simply was that we should distance ourselves as a club from these sort of affiliations, and I agree.

[Ghost Dog]

I'm with GD on this one. No one said "Get rid of pokies, alcohol and smoking." THe point simply was that we should distance ourselves as a club from these sort of affiliations, and I agree.

Good to hear Andrew. Organising a delegation of members to meet with the club to raise this issue. more soon.

[Maddog37]

Is gambling addiction a disease?

[KT31]

Good to hear Andrew. Organising a delegation of members to meet with the club in protest. more soon.

So now we are no longer a social or football forum, we are now a political forum ?

[AndrewP6]

Is gambling addiction a disease?

Yes it is.

[Ghost Dog]

So now we are no longer a social or football forum, we are now a political forum ?


It's really about capital. Social and financial capital. How the club makes it. Being connected with this revenue source is not a good look and it will start to dry up once governments intervene. How is that good for the club?

[Maddog37]

It's all about the vibe.

[Ghost Dog]

It's all about the vibe.

^_^ Mr Maddog37. Do you say 'ok' to funding the club with pokies money. Yay or nay.
I'm quite open to being told I'm wrong on this. But if we are to be a community club, can't see pokies being a good fit for us in the future.

[azabob]

Good to hear Andrew. Organising a delegation of members to meet with the club to raise this issue. more soon.

GD, we are the Community Club, pokies therefore cannot be bad.... Just ask us.... :rolleyes:

[KT31]

It's really about capital. Social and financial capital. How the club makes it. Being connected with this revenue source is not a good look and it will start to dry up once governments intervene. How is that good for the club?

Why not go all the way, stop the raflles and Bingo as well ?

[Hotdog60]

It's really about capital. Social and financial capital. How the club makes it. Being connected with this revenue source is not a good look and it will start to dry up once governments intervene. How is that good for the club?

The trouble is it's easy money, other means are harder to get good returns without a large outlay. I'm sure the club have looked at other alternatives but until push comes to shove clubs will always take the quickest and easiest way to get revenue.

[Ghost Dog]

Why not go all the way, stop the raflles and Bingo as well ?

Comparing raffles and bingo to pokies is just silly. We are talking about machines that are placed in areas designed to attract poorer members of the community.

Link (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/pokies-hit-citys-poorest-20120731-23d89.html)

Raffles and Bingo do not have the addictive qualities of pokies ( see my first post )

One analogy that was given in a recent article, it's like putting a learner in a high speed car.

40% of losses come from problem gamblers.

We are using a flawed technology to fund our footy club. Pure and simple.

[Ghost Dog]

The trouble is it's easy money, other means are harder to get good returns without a large outlay. I'm sure the club have looked at other alternatives but until push comes to shove clubs will always take the quickest and easiest way to get revenue.

North do it. And have done it successfully. Let's not be outdone by them!

[Eastdog]

I know that Collingwood have certain bars that they operate around Melbourne for supporters. Maybe we could do something like that too get revenue.

[azabob]

I know that Collingwood have certain bars that they operate around Melbourne for supporters. Maybe we could do something like that too get revenue.

Eastdog, Collingwood have also lost a heap of money on certain bars.

[Eastdog]

Eastdog, Collingwood have also lost a heap of money on certain bars.

Maybe it could be different if we did it.

[Maddog37]

I am not sure this thread agenda is about the club or about pokies in general.

[GVGjr]

Its a highly regulated industry and if the club complies with all the rules then I'm not sure we can be too critical. My preference would be that we avoid them but I'm not fussed either way.

I don't think we have to follow North or any other clubs lead on this.

[Ghost Dog]

I am not sure this thread agenda is about the club or about pokies in general.

Our club. How it runs. How it affects the wider community.
Just to clarify Maddog, against fund raising through pokies? For them. don't care either way?

[LostDoggy]

Who said I was trying to wipeout gambling?

You did, or am I missing something?


North Melbourne are the only club in the AFL that rejects the use of pokies outright.

Why can't we follow their lead? In my view, we should.

I read this as you want pokies wiped out of our club? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[AndrewP6]

You did, or am I missing something?



I read this as you want pokies wiped out of our club? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That's a bit different than wiping them out altogether (from the general community).

[LostDoggy]

That's a bit different than wiping them out altogether (from the general community).

Yes. It is.
Who mentioned wiping them out from general community?

[Ghost Dog]

Its a highly regulated industry and if the club complies with all the rules then I'm not sure we can be too critical. My preference would be that we avoid them but I'm not fussed either way.

I don't think we have to follow North or any other clubs lead on this.

Just because there is regulation doesn't mean it's GOOD regulation.
It's an excuse that doesn't wash with me. The club has to decide what's best for itself. If it cares about what paid members think ( they probably do ) as a paid member, you are not bothered, while I think the club is on a loser with pokies.
I'm hearing from you that to you, pokies are not such a big issue. That's ok, many will probably agree.

IMO New legislation is coming; Just a matter of time. Our relationship with pokies makes us vulnerable to it. it will wipe an estimated 30 Million dollars from the collective coffers of the AFL clubs involved. Futhermore, given the flawed nature of this technology, why would we support its use as a fundraising tool?

What the Kangaroos do is their business ( I was being tounge in cheek before about them outdoing us) but they have proved this.
Gambling revenue is not neccessary to run a successful football club.

[Ghost Dog]

You did, or am I missing something?



I read this as you want pokies wiped out of our club? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Correct. I don't support the use of flawed gambling technology to support our club.
I'm not against gambling now and forever as a revenue source. Just talking here about this type of technology.

[LostDoggy]

Ok, so now we are back on the same page, I'll say again...


Your opening a can of worms aren't you?
You could put up the same arguments for Alcohol. It is sold to people to make a profit, it is unhealthy, and people can have major problems with it....

Cigarettes, alcohol, gambling is a big industry to wipeout.
Good luck Ghost Dog.

P.S this is not sarcasm. I really mean good luck with what you are chasing.

[Ghost Dog]

Ok, so now we are back on the same page, I'll say again...



P.S this is not sarcasm. I really mean good luck with what you are chasing.

Thanks for the good luck?
You are for, against or not fussed if we use pokies to fund our club?

[AndrewP6]

Yes. It is.
Who mentioned wiping them out from general community?

You did.


Your opening a can of worms aren't you?
You could put up the same arguments for Alcohol. It is sold to people to make a profit, it is unhealthy, and people can have major problems with it....

Cigarettes, alcohol, gambling is a big industry to wipeout.
Good luck Ghost Dog.

[immortalmike]

Not a huge fan of them. As somewhat of a crisis counsellor I hear many stories of how they can ruin lives and break-up families. But then again I hear about twice as many about how alcohol does very similar things. And in saying that both are used by the vast majority as fun diversions and nothing more. I'm never a fan of limiting freedom in order to save (a minority of) people from themselves.

So the question is should we eliminate the use of pokies by our club as a stream of revenue just in case there are some problem gamblers that will use them? And should we limit the sale of alcohol by our club (in I guess the new Edgewater facility) just in case there are a few alcoholics around?
My answer is probably not. But I can see why some are uncomfortable with their use.

[GVGjr]

Just because there is regulation doesn't mean it's GOOD regulation.
It's an excuse that doesn't wash with me. The club has to decide what's best for itself. If it cares about what paid members think ( they probably do ) as a paid member, you are not bothered, while I think the club is on a loser with pokies.
I'm hearing from you that to you, pokies are not such a big issue. That's ok, many will probably agree.


I think your issue is more with the Pokies in general and as such putting the onus on the club to step away from it would be a minor win at best and to be honest (and to use your phrase) it doesn't wash with me.

If you really are committed to this then the problem needs to be fixed at a National level not a local one. The reform in Smoking and the selling of cigarettes was never to stop the local milk bar or Supermarket selling them it was done with education and restrictions and as a result there are less smokers now than there was 10 years ago. The trend would suggest it will be better again in another 10 years which indicates it's working but perhaps not to the pace that many would wish for. Initially a lot of people didn't think that was a good regulation either.

The club having a link with the Pokies isn't significant in my opinion.

[LostDoggy]

You did.


Your opening a can of worms aren't you?
You could put up the same arguments for Alcohol. It is sold to people to make a profit, it is unhealthy, and people can have major problems with it....

Cigarettes, alcohol, gambling is a big industry to wipeout.
Good luck Ghost Dog.

No I didn't.
I have not stated anywhere "general community".
This above was in response to GD wanting them wiped out from our club.

[LostDoggy]

Thanks for the good luck?
You are for, against or not fussed if we use pokies to fund our club?

I hate pokies. However I am afraid we are talking about ideal world issues. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world.
As far as using this device as funding for our club, this is my "can of worms" issue I was talking about. The thread could easily turn into a lecture about capitalism, Bureaucracy, and Karl Marx.
Look, on one side I see why the club has them, but the other I'm with you and see the destruction they cause. But removing them from our club only, will probably just result in the "problem gamblers" heading down the street to the next pub. Then we miss out on the revenue generated from the non problem gamblers.:confused:

[azabob]

But removing them from our club only, will probably just result in the "problem gamblers" heading down the street to the next pub. Then we miss out on the revenue generated from the non problem gamblers.:confused:

So rather than be part of a solution, we should continue to be part of the problem?
If you can't beat em, join em hey?

[KT31]

Not a huge fan of them. As somewhat of a crisis counsellor I hear many stories of how they can ruin lives and break-up families. But then again I hear about twice as many about how alcohol does very similar things. And in saying that both are used by the vast majority as fun diversions and nothing more. I'm never a fan of limiting freedom in order to save (a minority of) people from themselves.

So the question is should we eliminate the use of pokies by our club as a stream of revenue just in case there are some problem gamblers that will use them? And should we limit the sale of alcohol by our club (in I guess the new Edgewater facility) just in case there are a few alcoholics around?
My answer is probably not. But I can see why some are uncomfortable with their use.

Good post.

[LostDoggy]

So rather than be part of a solution, we should continue to be part of the problem?
If you can't beat em, join em hey?

If that is the way you feel. No one can tell you you're wrong.
I don't think it is that cut and dry though.

[Mofra]

Who said I was trying to wipeout gambling? I'm talking about how we use it to meet our aims. Pokies are just one of many ways to raise money. This method ( factually ) harms people. We are involved. To throw your hands up and say ' who cares' while other clubs actually prosper without pokies begs the question; are we a community focused organisation?
No, they don't. There is not a single club in the AFL or NRL that is "prospering" without pokies.

Noth had a membership boost based on prospects of playing finals, nothing more.
It's easy to forget that North had the "Kanga Kasino" at Arden St and removal of Pokies was a condition of funding, not some sort of moral crusade.

[Murphy'sLore]

For what it's worth I agree with you Ghost Dog, but it looks like you might struggle to get much support from others. If asked to choose between 'what's good for our club' and 'what's good for society in general', the former seems likely to outweigh the latter for most members.

[Ghost Dog]

Pokies and gambling are a recreation that many enjoy. That's fine. However, their use has gotten out of control as a way of funding sporting clubs. New legislation (inevitable ) is going to restrict our access to money gotten from them. Minus around 30 million across the state (est). For those of in the community with concerns, the call is about to be made by the feds. Smart cards are on the way and daily limits.

Too late for some, like my cousin; his wife threw $50,000 at them without him knowing. This is the error in comparing them to booze. One is a food, a drug, the other a computer. They work in different ways. Alcohol abuse is quite evident. I can see why counsellors like immortalmike might feel that alcohol is the greater danger. Only 4% of problem gamblers ever report their addiction. The tip of the iceberg is all we see, and counselors are no different. I taught a student once who gambled away all his school fees. He hid it from his parents by working nights.

So, the research has been done, and like it or not, the federal government is going to start tightening the screws within the next 12 months ( independents will not back down over this issue ) . Over time, we will have to find alternative sources of revenue. Pokies will be a part of the mix, but less so over time. That's the bottom line. The sooner we adjust to the coming reality the better.


To say that North Melbourne can't take any credit for the absence of pokies from their funding model because it was part of the funding conditions is cynical. IMO. Perhaps not originating from them, but It IS part of a push community wide, to change the way funding from gambling is used by football clubs. Calling it a crusade is a bit of a long shot as well. What detractors are asking for is realistic. Anyway, whatever your view, over time, the gravy train is going to be diminished. North have been a willing party to it, , and credit to them.

Glad you agree Murph. In the long run, what's good for society and what's good for our club are interdependent. How things have changed since the Benson and Hedges world series!

Mofra, the same thing people used to say about smoking advertising. Nobody thought major sporting events could be run without them.

Random fact; Australia leads the world in losses to gambling per capita, second only to Ireland!

[immortalmike]

That's where I feel you are quite wrong Alcohol and most drug abuse is not quite evident. Most families or even addicts don't feel there is a problem until it's too late. Most addict behaviour consists of lying and denying until they either hit rock-bottom, end up being caught, or figure out they have a problem. Neither gambling or alcohol is the "greater" danger (although alcohol has the added benefit of being a physical as well as mental addiction). They are both plenty dangerous and that's enough. But again is limiting the vast majority's freedom worth it to save people from themselves.

My current vocation aside and speaking purely as a person, I would rather my government treat me like an adult and allow me to make informed decisions and provide the support needed if I make the wrong one. I always had a problem when the teacher at school used to keep the whole class in when one kid used to stuff up, I felt it was unfair then and I still feel it is unfair now.

But, with that said I can understand those who want to remove harmful things from society or at least regulate them. Their efforts are coming from the right place but they will always be fighting an uphill battle as it seems that some people just want to 'get high' whether that be from drugs, alcohol or gambling and no amount of prohibition will change that.

In the specific case of pokies I understand that the research is quite damning and that they can be worse than other forms of gambling, but at no stage do they steal your wallet and take your money, a decision is still made somewhere along the line. They are also quite legal at the moment and also a source of great enjoyment for a large amount of people, so until those things change I'm okay with our club using them as a revenue stream.

[LostDoggy]

You had better get used to it.

The Bulldog Hilton is coming. Isn't it?

[Ghost Dog]

That's where I feel you are quite wrong Alcohol and most drug abuse is not quite evident. Most families or even addicts don't feel there is a problem until it's too late. Most addict behaviour consists of lying and denying until they either hit rock-bottom, end up being caught, or figure out they have a problem. Neither gambling or alcohol is the "greater" danger (although alcohol has the added benefit of being a physical as well as mental addiction). They are both plenty dangerous and that's enough. But again is limiting the vast majority's freedom worth it to save people from themselves.

My current vocation aside and speaking purely as a person, I would rather my government treat me like an adult and allow me to make informed decisions and provide the support needed if I make the wrong one. I always had a problem when the teacher at school used to keep the whole class in when one kid used to stuff up, I felt it was unfair then and I still feel it is unfair now.

But, with that said I can understand those who want to remove harmful things from society or at least regulate them. Their efforts are coming from the right place but they will always be fighting an uphill battle as it seems that some people just want to 'get high' whether that be from drugs, alcohol or gambling and no amount of prohibition will change that.

In the specific case of pokies I understand that the research is quite damning and that they can be worse than other forms of gambling, but at no stage do they steal your wallet and take your money, a decision is still made somewhere along the line. They are also quite legal at the moment and also a source of great enjoyment for a large amount of people, so until those things change I'm okay with our club using them as a revenue stream.

the first two points you make are fine. One can debate those. Personal views aside, how do you feel about the club's relationship to this technology?

So are we quite ok with them being specifically placed in areas of low socio economic demographic in order to get the maximum return. We are quite ok with us profiting from a technology that uses research into hypnotheraphy to gouge the maximum dollar it can from the punter? And are we ok with promoting ourselves as a community minded organisation, while research clearly shows the damage that has been done since their introduction? And we are ok from our club profiting despite knowing all this?


Your point about it being an uphill fight is not how many see it. Was the fight to regulate smoking an uphill battle? Yes perhaps. Drink driving? Yes. but both have been successful campagins. I'm afraid the wider community sees greater regulation of pokies as a very winnable battle. And the acceptance by VCAT for submissions by anti-pokies organisations in central Vic is an example of the trend of things to come.

Are we against the introduction of smart cards and daily limits? And are we prepared for any backlash when the name of our club appears in the media, trying to fight against the gambling reduction initiatives? Are we prepared for the state of play, post legislation, when there will be less pokies money available.

[Mofra]

Mofra, the same thing people used to say about smoking advertising. Nobody thought major sporting events could be run without them.
There's an important difference - we aren't going from an environment where all clubs are stopping a pokies trade to all lookign for alternate revenue streams a la smoking advertising bans, we are trying to do it in the face of other clubs continuing their revenue streams (and in fact we are in the bottom three clubs for pokie revenue).

The other issue is that if we remove pokies, it will not remove them from the community - the area cap means any free capacity will be taken up by another operator, so the net community effect is zero.

For a small club with financial issues already to take a stand that has zero community effect, it just doesn't offer the reward for risk IMO

[bornadog]

Welcome to the Nanny state.

[KT31]

the first two points you make are fine. One can debate those. Personal views aside, how do you feel about the club's relationship to this technology?

So are we quite ok with them being specifically placed in areas of low socio economic demographic in order to get the maximum return. We are quite ok with us profiting from a technology that uses research into hypnotheraphy to gouge the maximum dollar it can from the punter? And are we ok with promoting ourselves as a community minded organisation, while research clearly shows the damage that has been done since their introduction? And we are ok from our club profiting despite knowing all this?


Your point about it being an uphill fight is not how many see it. Was the fight to regulate smoking an uphill battle? Yes perhaps. Drink driving? Yes. but both have been successful campagins. I'm afraid the wider community sees greater regulation of pokies as a very winnable battle. And the acceptance by VCAT for submissions by anti-pokies organisations in central Vic is an example of the trend of things to come.

Are we against the introduction of smart cards and daily limits? And are we prepared for any backlash when the name of our club appears in the media, trying to fight against the gambling reduction initiatives? Are we prepared for the state of play, post legislation, when there will be less pokies money available.

As stated before, if you want greater regulation it is something you should take up with the State Goverment.
It is not a battle to take up with the Dogs.
Not sure we would even be an entity that someone would take any notice of.
Dogs are on the brink of extiction and IMO if we have to have a burst of cash from pokies to survive, so be it.
Great to have a high moral ground but if you aren't around to preach its pointless.
Its not that I don't agree with your crusade, I just think you are approaching the wrong people.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Pokies and gambling are a recreation that many enjoy. That's fine. However, their use has gotten out of control as a way of funding sporting clubs. New legislation (inevitable ) is going to restrict our access to money gotten from them. Minus around 30 million across the state (est). For those of in the community with concerns, the call is about to be made by the feds. Smart cards are on the way and daily limits.

Too late for some, like my cousin; his wife threw $50,000 at them without him knowing. This is the error in comparing them to booze. One is a food, a drug, the other a computer. They work in different ways. Alcohol abuse is quite evident. I can see why counsellors like immortalmike might feel that alcohol is the greater danger. Only 4% of problem gamblers ever report their addiction. The tip of the iceberg is all we see, and counselors are no different. I taught a student once who gambled away all his school fees. He hid it from his parents by working nights.

So, the research has been done, and like it or not, the federal government is going to start tightening the screws within the next 12 months ( independents will not back down over this issue ) . Over time, we will have to find alternative sources of revenue. Pokies will be a part of the mix, but less so over time. That's the bottom line. The sooner we adjust to the coming reality the better.


To say that North Melbourne can't take any credit for the absence of pokies from their funding model because it was part of the funding conditions is cynical. IMO. Perhaps not originating from them, but It IS part of a push community wide, to change the way funding from gambling is used by football clubs. Calling it a crusade is a bit of a long shot as well. What detractors are asking for is realistic. Anyway, whatever your view, over time, the gravy train is going to be diminished. North have been a willing party to it, , and credit to them.

Glad you agree Murph. In the long run, what's good for society and what's good for our club are interdependent. How things have changed since the Benson and Hedges world series!

Mofra, the same thing people used to say about smoking advertising. Nobody thought major sporting events could be run without them.

Random fact; Australia leads the world in losses to gambling per capita, second only to Ireland!

This is a good post. Like it or not the pokies revenue is dominating AFL Clubs revenues at the moment with the exception of North Melbourne. Good on North Melbourne for standing alone but one wonders where their sources of revenue might emanate from in the future.
As for the WB we knocked back a pokies venue at Caroline Springs in recent times which was picked up by Collingwood who now gain an extra $1 million dollars per year from this venue. I am like you and would prefer to see our club find other sources of revenue other than gambling, if at all possible in the future.

[LostDoggy]

If some goose wants to pump the rent money into a pokie machine, I'm happy it's going to the club.

[LostDoggy]

the first two points you make are fine. One can debate those. Personal views aside, how do you feel about the club's relationship to this technology?

So are we quite ok with them being specifically placed in areas of low socio economic demographic in order to get the maximum return. We are quite ok with us profiting from a technology that uses research into hypnotheraphy to gouge the maximum dollar it can from the punter? And are we ok with promoting ourselves as a community minded organisation, while research clearly shows the damage that has been done since their introduction? And we are ok from our club profiting despite knowing all this?

The first two points were about how Alcohol causes problems also. So are you ok for the club to profit from alcohol too? It is just a very similar argument.
By the way, interesting thread GD.

[Ghost Dog]

There's an important difference - we aren't going from an environment where all clubs are stopping a pokies trade to all lookign for alternate revenue streams a la smoking advertising bans, we are trying to do it in the face of other clubs continuing their revenue streams (and in fact we are in the bottom three clubs for pokie revenue).

The other issue is that if we remove pokies, it will not remove them from the community - the area cap means any free capacity will be taken up by another operator, so the net community effect is zero.

For a small club with financial issues already to take a stand that has zero community effect, it just doesn't offer the reward for risk IMO

Ok, some good points. Particularly in regards to competition. It has to be addressed across the clubs as a whole. So I think I am barking up the wrong tree. It's the AFL that has to take a bit of responsibility for this. Incidentally, where did you get the stat on us being bottom three ? It's a bit different from the stat I have but not saying you are wrong.

[immortalmike]

the first two points you make are fine. One can debate those. Personal views aside, how do you feel about the club's relationship to this technology?

Honestly I'm okay with it as we are not introducing more machines in the area and a moral stand by a struggling club is nice but won't help us survive.

So are we quite ok with them being specifically placed in areas of low socio economic demographic in order to get the maximum return. Not sure what this has to do with our club as most of the pokies we own aren't in specifically struggling areas, especially Edgewater with the yuppies and million dollar monstrosity housesWe are quite ok with us profiting from a technology that uses research into hypnotheraphy to gouge the maximum dollar it can from the punter?And are we ok with promoting ourselves as a community minded organisation, while research clearly shows the damage that has been done since their introduction? And we are ok from our club profiting despite knowing all this? Are you comfortable telling full grown adults what they can and can't do with their own money? Are you comfortable with making a profit of alcoholic beverages that specifically target the young and teenage demographic like Cruisers or Breezers? Life is about nuance I'm not sure you are barking up the right tree with asking a club who struggles for a buck to turn down some.


Your point about it being an uphill fight is not how many see it. Was the fight to regulate smoking an uphill battle? Yes perhaps. I also find it completely stupid. Why make something legal then reduce someone's ability to partake in it. Piss or get off the pot I say.Drink driving? Yes. but both have been successful campagins. I'm afraid the wider community sees greater regulation of pokies as a very winnable battle. And the acceptance by VCAT for submissions by anti-pokies organisations in central Vic is an example of the trend of things to come. My point about these crusades is that they are nice and often result in some modicum of success but there will always be another. I feel time is better spent looking at and helping reduce the reasons why people fall in these traps. I.e., mental health, poverty, isolation, etc.

Are we against the introduction of smart cards and daily limits? And are we prepared for any backlash when the name of our club appears in the media, trying to fight against the gambling reduction initiatives? Are we prepared for the state of play, post legislation, when there will be less pokies money available.


Some answers in bold.
Overall I respect your point of view Ghost Dog and I feel you've argued your point well. But I'm not sue taking it up with our club is the best avenue for these questions. As it is we need money and we'll take it any legal way we can and overall the Western Bulldogs is a much bigger force for good in the west than bad.

[Hotdog60]

The Dogs should buy a brewery as the country is one of the highest consumers of the amber fluid.

Bulldogs Bitter anyone.:D

[KT31]

The Dogs should buy a brewery as the country is one of the highest consumers of the amber fluid.

Bulldogs Bitter anyone.:D

I was Bulldogs bitter after most games this season.:D

[Ghost Dog]

Some answers in bold.
Overall I respect your point of view Ghost Dog and I feel you've argued your point well. But I'm not sue taking it up with our club is the best avenue for these questions. As it is we need money and we'll take it any legal way we can and overall the Western Bulldogs is a much bigger force for good in the west than bad.

No worries Mike. As you hint, the real world is seldom black and white. ( or red white and blue!)

Disagree that the club is absolved of responsibility.
Geelong for example now have a partnership with Gambler's Help, an assistance group.
No brainer.

The AFL attacks other issues like racism, gender discrimination, drugs. Gambling addiction seem less emotive, but it's in the same ballpark.

Think the Bulldogs are burying their heads in the sand on this one.

It seems many here take a rather pessimistic view in regards to this whole thing.
Interesting to note, Western Australia has no pokies. So while clubs on the East coast grapple with the moral dilemma, in the West they find other ways to make money. Doesn't seem to hurt the WAFL, "it thrives without pokies."
They have membership drives and corp sponsorship. Link (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-03/wa-shows-how-to-be-pokies-free/3757420)


NIKKI WILSON-SMITH: The WAFL carries out membership drives and it gets corporate sponsors on board to generate its $2.1 million turnover. Two AFL superstars, Ben Cousins and Buddy Franklin, started their careers playing in WAFL clubs which thrive without gaming revenue.

WAYNE BRADSHAW: From our perspective we're not in support of poker machines. We think that the social impact outweighs the benefit that arises out of the revenue that is generated and certainly our clubs are in the position where they don't require the poker machine revenue.

GEOFF GALLOP, FORMER WEST AUSTRALIAN PREMIER: I think a lot of other states look with envy at what we've achieved in Western Australia.

NIKKI WILSON-SMITH: Geoff Gallop is a well known supporter of the WAFL competition. The former WA Premier moved to Sydney five years ago and he says New South Wales clubs are hooked on their 100,000 pokies.

GEOFF GALLOP: Once these clubs get dependent on the revenue that comes from poker machines it's very hard to break the cycle, and these institutions, these clubs and pubs are addicted on poker machines, the thought of their addiction being taken away from them by government edict causes terrible withdrawal symptoms.

NIKKI WILSON-SMITH: Sporting clubs in WA have no trouble attracting members, and according to the Productivity Commission, Western Australia has the second lowest rate of problem gambling in the country. The average amount spent on gambling each year is half that of a typical Victorian.


The Dogs should buy a brewery as the country is one of the highest consumers of the amber fluid.

Bulldogs Bitter anyone.:D


Interesting idea!!

http://www.prattstreetalehouse.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/oval-bulldog-website.jpg

[Mofra]

Ok, some good points. Particularly in regards to competition. It has to be addressed across the clubs as a whole. So I think I am barking up the wrong tree. It's the AFL that has to take a bit of responsibility for this. Incidentally, where did you get the stat on us being bottom three ? It's a bit different from the stat I have but not saying you are wrong.
The bastion of editorial accuracy

(a post on BF taken from the Hun).

[Daughter of the West]

Western Australia has no pokies.

They do have pokies actually, just in the casino. But they also have vast quantities of minerals in their state that they can dig up and collect taxes on that Victoria doesn't.

WA also only has two teams battling for your AFL membership.

The problem is with an issue like this is it's a race to the bottom. Victoria looks at NSW and thinks, "They've got pokies and they're getting taxes from Victorian citizens, jeez, we should get us some of that!" Same with AFL clubs. "Gee, Collingwood are racking it in in our area, we should get us some of those." And then when everyone turns around and works out that they're at rock bottom, totally dependent on gaming machine revenue, they think, "Oh sh*t, how are we going to fix this? We love the cash, but we're being slightly pricked by our moral conscience... Ah screw it, everyone else is doing it!" (Both at a state and AFL level)

I don't know what the answer is regarding gaming machines, but it's a complex, complex balancing act between individual freedoms and saving people from themselves. As a football club, unless we can find a surefire way to replace that lost revenue, what do we do? I definitely appreciate the noble sentiment Ghost Dog and I do also believe that it would be fantastic to be ahead of the curve for a change in terms of raising funds, but at a purely practical level, could we survive without the funds?

*Cue rich benefactors stepping in right here to make up the difference in funding :D*

[Ghost Dog]

They do have pokies actually, just in the casino. But they also have vast quantities of minerals in their state that they can dig up and collect taxes on that Victoria doesn't.

WA also only has two teams battling for your AFL membership.

The problem is with an issue like this is it's a race to the bottom. Victoria looks at NSW and thinks, "They've got pokies and they're getting taxes from Victorian citizens, jeez, we should get us some of that!" Same with AFL clubs. "Gee, Collingwood are racking it in in our area, we should get us some of those." And then when everyone turns around and works out that they're at rock bottom, totally dependent on gaming machine revenue, they think, "Oh sh*t, how are we going to fix this? We love the cash, but we're being slightly pricked by our moral conscience... Ah screw it, everyone else is doing it!" (Both at a state and AFL level)

I don't know what the answer is regarding gaming machines, but it's a complex, complex balancing act between individual freedoms and saving people from themselves. As a football club, unless we can find a surefire way to replace that lost revenue, what do we do? I definitely appreciate the noble sentiment Ghost Dog and I do also believe that it would be fantastic to be ahead of the curve for a change in terms of raising funds, but at a purely practical level, could we survive without the funds?

*Cue rich benefactors stepping in right here to make up the difference in funding :D*

Well played Daughter O' the West. Enjoyed the read.
Yeah it's not black and white , and I you've summed it up with some fair points.

Ta' for reminding me about Casinos. I'm not sure the mining issue sits as a valid reason for suggesting it's easier for WA to take the path it does. WA got by quite well without pokies in pubs and clubs well before the mining boom. That argument gets rolled out here in the Eastern states. Quite a lot of their taxes also get pumped East as well, but that's a different issue.

IMO the best we can hope for is to gather a small bunch of like-minded members from all clubs to form some sort of whinge group. Petition all clubs and the AFL and say, do what you can, you decide, but take some responsibility for side effects of our chosen funding technology. Geelong have their partnership with Gambler's help, I can't see anything wrong with, bare minimum, supporting a similar initiative. Better than nothing. Hell, maybe we already do? Anyone know?

Western Bulldogs does some great things in the West, trumpeting itself as the community club. Needs to show its colours on this one or it takes the shine off a bit. Anyway, regards of the feel-good stuff, we need the money, but the horse has bolted, and it's name is Mr Wilkie.

Below an article on the SANFL and the headaches the new legislation is going to cause them.
http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/without-pokies-theres-no-sanfl-sturt-chief-executive-matthew-benson/story-e6freckc-1226375682332

Independent federal MP Andrew Wilkie last week reluctantly backed the Federal Government's diluted pokie reforms, which must now be considered in the Senate. As tough as it is, Mr Benson ( CEO of Sturt) said clubs had to find a way to survive without pokies.

"The challenge for us is to find a future where our total reliance on gaming is diminished," he said.

Good point with the White knights thing too. We really need a few!

[LostDoggy]

Queensland has mining, pokies and two football teams.