Bill Davoren - joins St.Kilda

[azabob]

Reports he is joining the saints.

[LostDoggy]

Just read that, article also says "The Weapon" may be coming our way from Essendon.

:confused::confused:

[AndrewP6]

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/st-kilda-poaches-western-bulldogs-fitness-guru-bill-davoren/story-fnelctok-1226473619585

To be honest, wouldn't mind a shake up of the physical performance dept. Our inability to run out games/seasons is getting a bit old.

[Maddog37]

Agreed Andrew. I want change too but have not really been overly vocal as I have no inside knowledge. We seem too slow at times and now ths year simply unfit.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/st-kilda-poaches-western-bulldogs-fitness-guru-bill-davoren/story-fnelctok-1226473619585

To be honest, wouldn't mind a shake up of the physical performance dept. Our inability to run out games/seasons is getting a bit old.

This.

Not sure about the weap though, given Essendon's persistent injuries in recent years.

[Greystache]

This will please SlimPickens, he's been less than impressed with Davoren's work with us.

[LostDoggy]

If this year is any indication regarding our fitness levels, might be a good time for a change

[LostDoggy]

The weapon sounds like trouble to me...

[SlimPickens]

Wow this bloke has someone fooled! We have been one of the least fit teams in the competition for a number of years and St Kilda have made him an offer. Good luck to him but certainly not disappointed that he's leaving.

As for Dean Robinson, say he has a few more runs on the board then Davoren.

[Remi Moses]

Meh. The way we finished games it was like having Homer Simpson as our physical development coach:eek:

[Mantis]

To be honest, wouldn't mind a shake up of the physical performance dept. Our inability to run out games/seasons is getting a bit old.

Whose fault is that?

I know the phys ed guys are responsible for the fitness of players, but they can only do what they are told by the coach/es.

[AndrewP6]

Whose fault is that?

I know the phys ed guys are responsible for the fitness of players, but they can only do what they are told by the coach/es.

I'm sure none of the coaches past or present have said "Get them into a state where they're knackered and can't run games out"

[jeemak]

I'm sure none of the coaches past or present have said "Get them into a state where they're knackered and can't run games out"

But they might have advised to train for strength rather than endurance etc.....

[AndrewP6]

But they might have advised to train for strength rather than endurance etc.....

Possibly. Not that sad to see him go though.

[Remi Moses]

Just ripped a hammy at the thought of the Weapon in our ranks.
Conditioning coach role is becoming a revolving door at football clubs.

[LostDoggy]

How long was he with us? What were the fitness levels prior this season?

[bornadog]

Wow this bloke has someone fooled! We have been one of the least fit teams in the competition for a number of years and St Kilda have made him an offer. Good luck to him but certainly not disappointed that he's leaving.

As for Dean Robinson, say he has a few more runs on the board then Davoren.

What evidence have you of this?

Bill Davoren is an ex Olympic Fitness coach, I am pretty sure he knows his stuff?

He is a big loss to us and just hope the next bloke knows what he is doing?

[AndrewP6]

How long was he with us? What were the fitness levels prior this season?

Three years.

[Mofra]

I'm sure none of the coaches past or present have said "Get them into a state where they're knackered and can't run games out"
But they all did add weight which hurts running capacity - the term "contested animals" springs to mind

[bornadog]

How long was he with us? What were the fitness levels prior this season?

He started after the Beijing Olympics where he coached the womens gold medalist in the triathlon and the mens bronze medalist. Prior to that he had been to a number of Olympic games as well as commonwealth games training various athletes. Under Eade we were one of the fittest teams and always finished games very strongly.

This year we turned our preseason on its head and concentrated on strength and gym work, as well as football. Most teams don't even pick up a footy prior to Christmas but we were straight into it. This isnot the fault of the fitness staff.

[SlimPickens]

What evidence have you of this?

Bill Davoren is an ex Olympic Fitness coach, I am pretty sure he knows his stuff?

He is a big loss to us and just hope the next bloke knows what he is doing?

I've explained this before, I don't see fitness as purely endurance it is one facet of many different aspects which we haven't excelled in. Under Davoren we have had blokes struggle to put on weight, muscle bulk etc and we have seen a drop off in overall fitness when the putting on weight has occurred

This year we were rat shit in the second half of most games as we needed a preseason to focus on getting the lads to a size which wont see them tossed a side by the bigger sides of the competition. It very well may be the fact that he had different instructions from Bmac than Rocket and thus his philosophy changed but that being said the inability for an ex-Olympic triathlon (one of the most challenging endurance sports in the world) coach to have our players struggling to run out games speaks volumes to me. You may think he is a big loss, I disagree.

[bornadog]

to have our players struggling to run out games speaks volumes to me.

When you are playing anywhere between 11 to 14 players with less than 50 games, this does happen. It has nothing to do with the fitness staff, it happens to all young players. In any case, we didn't do the running pre-season so that has also had an effect as the season went on.

[jeemak]

When you are playing anywhere between 11 to 14 players with less than 50 games, this does happen. It has nothing to do with the fitness staff, it happens to all young players. In any case, we didn't do the running pre-season so that has also had an effect as the season went on.

Does the new coach get the same leniency as the fitness staff? :p

[bornadog]

Does the new coach get the same leniency as the fitness staff? :p

Yes he does. He still has to prove himself even though I am baffled with what he is doing.:D

[jeemak]

Yes he does. He still has to prove himself even though I am baffled with what he is doing.:D

Very good BAD.

I'm not close enough to the club to know whether Davoren was suited to his role, and while there has always been some concerns surrounding the body shapes of Grant, Everitt etc, there's also been some positives.

[bornadog]

Very good BAD.

I'm not close enough to the club to know whether Davoren was suited to his role, and while there has always been some concerns surrounding the body shapes of Grant, Everitt etc, there's also been some positives.

The body shape of Grant is just that. Have a look at Murphy, has never really bulked up, and I think Grant is the same.

[Mantis]

I've explained this before, I don't see fitness as purely endurance it is one facet of many different aspects which we haven't excelled in. Under Davoren we have had blokes struggle to put on weight, muscle bulk etc and we have seen a drop off in overall fitness when the putting on weight has occurred

This year we were rat shit in the second half of most games as we needed a preseason to focus on getting the lads to a size which wont see them tossed a side by the bigger sides of the competition. It very well may be the fact that he had different instructions from Bmac than Rocket and thus his philosophy changed but that being said the inability for an ex-Olympic triathlon (one of the most challenging endurance sports in the world) coach to have our players struggling to run out games speaks volumes to me. You may think he is a big loss, I disagree.

Over the course of a season players fitness levels will drop off if you don't continue to put the work into them.... which is what happened this year when we went into recovery mode.

The coaching staff obviously wanted to 'nurse' the players through the season and our performances in the 2nd half of the season and in particular the 2nd half of games show this to be the case.

[SlimPickens]

Over the course of a season players fitness levels will drop off if you don't continue to put the work into them.... which is what happened this year when we went into recovery mode.

The coaching staff obviously wanted to 'nurse' the players through the season and our performances in the 2nd half of the season and in particular the 2nd half of games show this to be the case.

Agree to an extent but we haven't exactly flown out of the blocks early in the seasons with Davoren in charge either. 2010 we battled as we went too hard too early with winning the NAB cup and struggled for much the early games in the season, 2011 was ordinary being thumped by a cherry ripe essendon and struggling our way through to the middle of the season, granted we finish 2011 in ok shape but it wasn't fantastic and 2012 we were in games early and then over run by some strong sides but also some teams who we would consider equal at that stage of the year.

We can blame the coach but I can tell you I haven't been a fan of Davorens when Eade was coaching or under Bmac. The noticeable change over the preseason in terms of training is a positive for me and one that needs to be continued. Our boys need to get bigger to ensure they are upto the rigors of AFL footy, this will take time I just feel that under Davoren we were behind the 8 ball.

[Bulldog Joe]

Interesting point of view Slim.

While we are not privy to what actually happens, I do know that Rocket really rated Davoren highly.

We were pretty good in 2009 in his first year in charge.

[bornadog]

While we are not privy to what actually happens, I do know that Rocket really rated Davoren highly.

Not only Rocket but it seems others as well, thats why the Saints have made him a three year offer.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Agree to an extent but we haven't exactly flown out of the blocks early in the seasons with Davoren in charge either. 2010 we battled as we went too hard too early with winning the NAB cup and struggled for much the early games in the season, 2011 was ordinary being thumped by a cherry ripe essendon and struggling our way through to the middle of the season, granted we finish 2011 in ok shape but it wasn't fantastic and 2012 we were in games early and then over run by some strong sides but also some teams who we would consider equal at that stage of the year.

We can blame the coach but I can tell you I haven't been a fan of Davorens when Eade was coaching or under Bmac. The noticeable change over the preseason in terms of training is a positive for me and one that needs to be continued. Our boys need to get bigger to ensure they are upto the rigors of AFL footy, this will take time I just feel that under Davoren we were behind the 8 ball.

I'd go the other way. I know Eade instructed Davoren to have us up and going early in 2010. We deliberately set out to win some silverware because we hadn't won anything at for such a long time. They risked running out of steam later in the season because they thought the belief in themselves for winning something was worth it.

In 2011 we learnt from the previous year and timed it better. Davoran was under direct instructions from Eade then and I have no doubt he was under direct instruction from McCartney this year.

Perhaps he wasn't happy doing what McCartney told him to do and walked before his reputation took a hit?

[Mantis]

We can blame the coach but I can tell you I haven't been a fan of Davorens when Eade was coaching or under Bmac. The noticeable change over the preseason in terms of training is a positive for me and one that needs to be continued. Our boys need to get bigger to ensure they are upto the rigors of AFL footy, this will take time I just feel that under Davoren we were behind the 8 ball.

And while you talk about adding bulk and it's importance the fact that Freo have slimmed down and improved their running abilities (and performances) because of it needs to remain at the front of minds.

I can see if Macca gets his way we will have a bunch muscle heads who won't be able to run out of sight on a foggy night.

[SlimPickens]

And while you talk about adding bulk and it's importance the fact that Freo have slimmed down and improved their running abilities (and performances) because of it needs to remain at the front of minds.

I can see if Macca gets his way we will have a bunch muscle heads who won't be able to run out of sight on a foggy night.

Sorry are you using Freo as a club we should aspire to be?

[Mofra]

Sorry are you using Freo as a club we should aspire to be?
They are playing this weekend and we aren't.

Football is a running game, and anything that hurts this game will impact upon reults.
As with a lot of what B-Mac says, it seems that last pre-season did hurt us but is part of a longer term plan. I hope it's worth it.

[Mantis]

Sorry are you using Freo as a club we should aspire to be?

With regard to fitness I sure am. ... They can run, we can't.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I think we need to remember that the 'adding size' part is not so much about becoming footballing bodybuilders, as it is about adding muscle and strength to kids.

The majority of our list is very under developed right now, I can understand McCartney wanting to throw size on them as quickly as possible and then focus on the running/fitness.* In a sense, if you haven't got the size (and strength moreso), you won't be able to handle the workload, much less the contested ball.

If he is still applying this philosophy in 2-3 years time, I'll be concerned.

* Improvement in running needs to obviously begin now, as this season was incredibly poor.

[bornadog]

I think we need to remember that the 'adding size' part is not so much about becoming footballing bodybuilders, as it is about adding muscle and strength to kids.

The majority of our list is very under developed right now, I can understand McCartney wanting to throw size on them as quickly as possible and then focus on the running/fitness.* In a sense, if you haven't got the size (and strength moreso), you won't be able to handle the workload, much less the contested ball.

If he is still applying this philosophy in 2-3 years time, I'll be concerned.

* Improvement in running needs to obviously begin now, as this season was incredibly poor.

as long as they can still crack in:D

[LostDoggy]

I'm not fussed about losing Daveron but I hate it when we lose people to St Kilda. Can't stand them and hate the idea that they see themselves as a better place to be than the dogs.

[Maddog37]

They are wrong if they do. They will pay for holding onto old guys too long like we are but they haven't started down yet.

[Remi Moses]

They are wrong if they do. They will pay for holding onto old guys too long like we are but they haven't started down yet.

They'll be where we are in two years .
Lot of players in that 28 to 30 range, plus they're in no mans land draft wise.

[divvydan]

Article: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/more-news/western-bulldogs-appoint-graham-lowe-as-they-overhaul-their-fitness-department/story-e6frf9jf-1226482950576

THE Western Bulldogs have lured a new high performance manager from the elite Scottish rugby program.

Graham Lowe, originally from New Zealand, is set to be announced as the replacement for departed fitness chief Bill Davoren.

Lowe, 41, was director of performance with Scottish rugby for the past three years after involvement in other other elite programs, the New Zealand All Blacks and America's Cup yacht racing.

He will have wide-ranging powers, including overseeing new strength and conditioning coach Andy Barnett.

Barnett has worked for the New York Giants in the NFL and also have experience in Olympic sports.

[G-Mo77]

Without knowing much about the two or the S+C area they sound like they are both good selections.

[bornadog]

Looks like we will be bulking up

[LongWait]

Looks like we will be bulking up

Could also mean we will learn to run with the added bulk.

[bornadog]

Could also mean we will learn to run with the added bulk.

Hope so.

[Mofra]

Could also mean we will learn to run with the added bulk.
Union is more about explosive power and short running spurts - a few years ago George Gregan trained with the Swans and despite being one of the "smaller" unions guys and one of the best runners in team was lifting ~25% more than the AFL guys.

Aolt will depend on the mantra for the pre-season - I'm still convinced B-Mac has a multi-year plan for the team

[whythelongface]

Article: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/more-news/western-bulldogs-appoint-graham-lowe-as-they-overhaul-their-fitness-department/story-e6frf9jf-1226482950576

THE Western Bulldogs have lured a new high performance manager from the elite Scottish rugby program.

Graham Lowe, originally from New Zealand, is set to be announced as the replacement for departed fitness chief Bill Davoren.

Lowe, 41, was director of performance with Scottish rugby for the past three years after involvement in other other elite programs, the New Zealand All Blacks and America's Cup yacht racing.

He will have wide-ranging powers, including overseeing new strength and conditioning coach Andy Barnett.

Barnett has worked for the New York Giants in the NFL and also have experience in Olympic sports.



Sounds like some astute appointments.

Andy Barnett has a lot of experience. Wonder how we managed to snag such an experienced coach.

The newcomer to NZAS is a world class strength and conditioning specialist with 22 years of experience in high performance sport. Andy has worked in the Canadian Olympic system where he was the strength coach for 24 Olympic and World Champion Gold Medallists

http://www.sail-world.com/Australia/index.cfm?SEID=0&Nid=68949&SRCID=0&ntid=118&tickeruid=0&tickerCID=0

From the looks of things Barnett and Lowe may have worked together through an association with NZ sailing.

[Sockeye Salmon]

Union is more about explosive power and short running spurts - a few years ago George Gregan trained with the Swans and despite being one of the "smaller" unions guys and one of the best runners in team was lifting ~25% more than the AFL guys.

Aolt will depend on the mantra for the pre-season - I'm still convinced B-Mac has a multi-year plan for the team

And would need to be rotated off every 35 seconds.

They are different games requiring different physical attributes. Our midfielders would cover more distance in a game than a Rugby player would cover in a season.

[LongWait]

Union is more about explosive power and short running spurts - a few years ago George Gregan trained with the Swans and despite being one of the "smaller" unions guys and one of the best runners in team was lifting ~25% more than the AFL guys.

Aolt will depend on the mantra for the pre-season - I'm still convinced B-Mac has a multi-year plan for the team

Do you think that we intend to train the players exactly as rugby players are trained, or perhaps we might be looking to use some of the expertise from that area and some from Olympic athletics?

[Mofra]

And would need to be rotated off every 35 seconds.

They are different games requiring different physical attributes. Our midfielders would cover more distance in a game than a Rugby player would cover in a season.
You don't honestly think he would actually train them on a Union-specific program do you?

[Sockeye Salmon]

You don't honestly think he would actually train them on a Union-specific program do you?

Of course not, just as I'm sure you don't expect all our players will get 25% stronger.

[Mofra]

Of course not, just as I'm sure you don't expect all our players will get 25% stronger.
It was posted more as a concern that again, in this pre-season, we would focus on getting stronger to the detriment of running.

Last year's "bulking" pre-season I can live with even if it hurt us this year if it is part of a multi-year strategy.
If B-Mac just wants us to focus on strength every year, I'll be bitterly disappointed.

[LostDoggy]

Do you think that we intend to train the players exactly as rugby players are trained, or perhaps we might be looking to use some of the expertise from that area and some from Olympic athletics?

These guys are experts in the science around strength and fitness and I would envisage that they take their scientific knowledge and adapt it to whichever sport they are training athletes in. The way a body gets fitter and stronger is science and programs are created to compliment the movements required by particular athletes.

[LostDoggy]

It was posted more as a concern that again, in this pre-season, we would focus on getting stronger to the detriment of running.

Last year's "bulking" pre-season I can live with even if it hurt us this year if it is part of a multi-year strategy.
If B-Mac just wants us to focus on strength every year, I'll be bitterly disappointed.

Prepare yourself.

[LongWait]

Prepare yourself.

Just a wild guess here, but you don't support the new appointments?

[Greystache]

Prepare yourself.

Do you have some detailed knowledge on how we will be preparing next season? If so I think most of us would enjoy hearing some insights.

[Mantis]

Just a wild guess here, but you don't support the new appointments?

I think it has more to do with the direction the coach wants us to head in terms of physical training rather than the new appointments.

[craigsahibee]

You don't honestly think he would actually train them on a Union-specific program do you?

What, move the ball laterally and backwards. Been there done that.

[AndrewP6]

What, move the ball laterally and backwards. Been there done that.

They could get Farren Ray and Jordy Mac back to run that program!

[The Underdog]

They could get Farren Ray and Jordy Mac back to run that program!

Sam Power says hi (via a short kick to a man 10 m behind him)

[AndrewP6]

Sam Power says hi (via a short kick to a man 10 m behind him)

Ah yes good call. That coaching panel is a cracker. How could I forget Sam, he is a relative after all. Perhaps I've tried to forget him... :D

[ReLoad]

Rugby huh, we're going to have players with no necks!!! we need to go the opposite way and play like west coast, how are we supposed to get a over the shoulder free kick? ;)

Seems like good appointments to me, I'm glad we cast our net wide in a bid to see what's out there.

Just like in 1997 when we blew the competition away with our running game, we may unearth something different. good show dogs, I look forward to seeing the results in 2 years.

[SlimPickens]

That reference is a bit too oblique for me. Whatcha talking 'bout Willis?

Bill Davoren anyone?

[Hotdog60]

That reference is a bit too oblique for me. Whatcha talking 'bout Willis?

I think it referring to this:-

Western Bulldogs fitness coach joins St Kilda

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2012/09/13/1226473/612080-bill-davoren.jpg

Western Bulldogs head of physical conditioning Bill Davoren calls the shots at pre-season training. Picture: George Salpigtidis Source: Herald Sun
THE shake-up in AFL strength and conditioning continued yesterday with the Western Bulldogs losing respected fitness boss Bill Davoren to St Kilda.

Davoren will replace Peter Burge, who has departed the Saints for Richmond to take up the role of elite performance manager.

The vacancy at the Bulldogs will raise obvious questions about Essendon's controversial fitness chief Dean Robinson. He worked alongside current Bulldogs coach Brendan McCartney as Geelong transformed itself into a powerhouse.

But Robinson seems destined to remain at Windy Hill in a downgraded role and the Dogs last night said it was too early to speculate on a replacement for Davoren, who spent four years at Whitten Oval.

Bulldogs football manager James Fantasia said: "We haven't looked at anything yet. It has only just happened. We will look at it in the next couple of days and go through a process."

It is understood Burge's departure was a mutual decision, with the Saints keen to move in a slightly different direction under coach Scott Watters.
Link (http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/st-kilda-poaches-western-bulldogs-fitness-guru-bill-davoren/story-fnelctok-1226473619585)

[Mantis]

1. We are a lot fitter than St Kilda
2. We are a lot fitter than last year
3. Wonder why?

My understanding is that our lack of fitness last year wasn't because of the fitness staff.

[Greystache]

My understanding is that our lack of fitness last year wasn't because of the fitness staff.

What about the previous 3 years? We've struggled to run out seasons routinely, even when we had a mature team.

[bornadog]

What about the previous 3 years? We've struggled to run out seasons routinely, even when we had a mature team.

Thats not true, under Rocket we started poorly in most games but as the game went on we came home hard with big last quarters.

[Greystache]

Thats not true, under Rocket we started poorly in most games but as the game went on we came home hard with big last quarters.

It was in reference to the overall season. We struggled in the second half routinely.

[bornadog]

It was in reference to the overall season. We struggled in the second half routinely.

2009. 8 wins 3 losses

2010. 8 Wins 3 Losses

2011 5 wins 6 losses

We had a bad season overall in 2011 when we had lots of injuries and 10 players debuting.

[Twodogs]

Bill Davoren anyone?


I think it referring to this:-

Western Bulldogs fitness coach joins St Kilda

http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2012/09/13/1226473/612080-bill-davoren.jpg

Western Bulldogs head of physical conditioning Bill Davoren calls the shots at pre-season training. Picture: George Salpigtidis Source: Herald Sun
THE shake-up in AFL strength and conditioning continued yesterday with the Western Bulldogs losing respected fitness boss Bill Davoren to St Kilda.

Davoren will replace Peter Burge, who has departed the Saints for Richmond to take up the role of elite performance manager.

The vacancy at the Bulldogs will raise obvious questions about Essendon's controversial fitness chief Dean Robinson. He worked alongside current Bulldogs coach Brendan McCartney as Geelong transformed itself into a powerhouse.

But Robinson seems destined to remain at Windy Hill in a downgraded role and the Dogs last night said it was too early to speculate on a replacement for Davoren, who spent four years at Whitten Oval.

Bulldogs football manager James Fantasia said: "We haven't looked at anything yet. It has only just happened. We will look at it in the next couple of days and go through a process."

It is understood Burge's departure was a mutual decision, with the Saints keen to move in a slightly different direction under coach Scott Watters.
Link (http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/st-kilda-poaches-western-bulldogs-fitness-guru-bill-davoren/story-fnelctok-1226473619585)


Cheers guys. I'd forgotten that Davoren went to St Kilda.


It was in reference to the overall season. We struggled in the second half routinely.

I thought that was more mental than physical. We'd get to big games and then look like rabbits caught in the spotlight.

[LostDoggy]

My understanding is that our lack of fitness last year wasn't because of the fitness staff.

St Kilda must be suffering from a similar problem this year.

[Greystache]

2009. 8 wins 3 losses

2010. 8 Wins 3 Losses

2011 5 wins 6 losses

We had a bad season overall in 2011 when we had lots of injuries and 10 players debuting.

After round 15

2008- 3 wins 6 losses

2009- 5 wins 4 losses

2010- 4 wins 7 losses

2011- 4 wins 4 losses

We were a top 4 team 3 out of those 4 seasons yet had a winning percentage of 43% after round 15. That speaks volumes of our ability to run out seasons.


I thought that was more mental than physical. We'd get to big games and then look like rabbits caught in the spotlight.

I think it was a mix of game plan and lack of preparedness mentally for the step up finals require, but we're also talking about H&A games here too. As teams were peaking for finals we were spluttering to a halt.

[whythelongface]

After round 15

2008- 3 wins 6 losses

2009- 5 wins 4 losses

2010- 4 wins 7 losses

2011- 4 wins 4 losses

We were a top 4 team 3 out of those 4 seasons yet had a winning percentage of 43% after round 15. That speaks volumes of our ability to run out seasons.




I am a tad confused by those stats. There appears to be too many games played in each of those years that you have quoted. Are you sure that is right?

[Greystache]

I am a tad confused by those stats. There appears to be too many games played in each of those years that you have quoted. Are you sure that is right?

There's finals in there as well.

[whythelongface]

There's finals in there as well.


ok. thanks. There certainly appears to be a pattern of dropping off in the latter part of the season. Hopefully this is something that the coaching staff can address.

[bornadog]

ok. thanks. There certainly appears to be a pattern of dropping off in the latter part of the season. Hopefully this is something that the coaching staff can address.

like the 11 straight losses last season

[whythelongface]

like the 11 straight losses last season

Yes it was stating the obvious. lol.

Let's hope that as the younger players continue their development their training base levels are increased so that when it comes to the latter half of the season we will be able to run out matches better. Don't think this will happen this year, however after one or two more pre-seasons we should see some real development in this area.

We will probably find that towards the latter part of the year we may lose 4 or 5 matches in a row.

[Greystache]

like the 11 straight losses last season

Which coupled with the dramatic fall away in previous years is why some members aren't sorry Davoren has departed as was the point of EJ's orginal post.

[bornadog]

Which coupled with the dramatic fall away in previous years is why some members aren't sorry Davoren has departed as was the point of EJ's orginal post.

That is too simplistic Stache to blame the fitness staff on last season or even previous seasons.

I will tell you why we fell away in all those seasons, we just didn't have the players to be good enough to make a Grand Final. Either they were injured ( 2009/2010/ 2011) or not good enough. (2008/2012).

PS: Unless you have inside information on Daveron, I don't think you can comment on his ability)

[Happy Days]

That is too simplistic Stache to blame the fitness staff on last season or even previous seasons.

I will tell you why we fell away in all those seasons, we just didn't have the players to be good enough to make a Grand Final. Either they were injured ( 2009/2010/ 2011) or not good enough. (2008/2012).

PS: Unless you have inside information on Daveron, I don't think you can comment on his ability)

Wait...what?

We can't blame the fitness staff for the player's fitness? If we weren't good enough then why did we look good enough in the front half of those seasons bar 11/12 then?

[Greystache]

That is too simplistic Stache to blame the fitness staff on last season or even previous seasons.

I will tell you why we fell away in all those seasons, we just didn't have the players to be good enough to make a Grand Final. Either they were injured ( 2009/2010/ 2011) or not good enough. (2008/2012).

PS: Unless you have inside information on Daveron, I don't think you can comment on his ability)

I've lost track of the point you're making.

The statistics show our form running into the latter part of the seasons has been poor compared to our opponents (many of the losses were against teams that finished mid-table). We've had 2 different coaches and different players in that time. I don't think it's a stretch that some of us believe (and believed at the time) that Davoren was a pretty average performer. If you don't think that's the reality that's fine, but it's not difficult to build a case for it based on the results.

[Bulldog Joe]

I've lost track of the point you're making.

The statistics show our form running into the latter part of the seasons has been poor compared to our opponents (many of the losses were against teams that finished mid-table). We've had 2 different coaches and different players in that time. I don't think it's a stretch that some of us believe (and believed at the time) that Davoren was a pretty average performer. If you don't think that's the reality that's fine, but it's not difficult to build a case for it based on the results.

Sorry stache, but I am with bornadog on this one.

Davoren came in 2009 and we very nearly pulled the big prize. We missed out in the Prelim due to execution. There was absolutely nothing amiss with the fitness that he had control over.

2010 and 11 we had other issues.

2012 with a new coach, who required a totally different direction with more emphasis on strength. The fact that we played so many new players through 11 and 12 had much more to do with the late season form than anything that could be blamed on the fitness staff.

[Maddog37]

I felt under Daveron we looked very one paced. Too much long slow work and not enough repeat sprints etc.

[SlimPickens]

I felt under Daveron we looked very one paced. Too much long slow work and not enough repeat sprints etc.

Don't think that was the case, more we didn't have the size to compete at the point end of the season.

I've been critical of Davoren and was glad to see the back of him.

[LostDoggy]

That is too simplistic Stache to blame the fitness staff on last season or even previous seasons.

I will tell you why we fell away in all those seasons, we just didn't have the players to be good enough to make a Grand Final. Either they were injured ( 2009/2010/ 2011) or not good enough. (2008/2012).

PS: Unless you have inside information on Daveron, I don't think you can comment on his ability)

Of course he can comment on his ability. He's the fitness coach. He is commenting on fitness. It's like claiming that you can't judge McCartney's performance on how well the players stick to the game plan. He's the fella with the title on his door, he is responsible. (Or, in this case, was).

I guess we'll see as the season progresses.

Back on topic…

I only just watched the replay today as I was away on holidays over Easter, camping near Jervis Bay without radio or TV coverage, and my three things would be quite similar to things others have posted:

1. Our forward and defense troops, whilst still having a long way to go, look like they're taking the right road.
2. Footy is really hard to watch on TV. I usually attend the games live, so not being able to see the entire field during play makes it much harder to get a read on what's going on.
3. There are some things that can make a grown man cry. My partner poked a bit of fun at me when a tear streamed down the cheek, coinciding neatly with the vision of Adam Cooney approaching full flight.

[Mantis]

Don't think that was the case, more we didn't have the size to compete at the point end of the season.



In which years did we not have enough size to compete?

[bornadog]

Sorry stache, but I am with bornadog on this one.

Davoren came in 2009 and we very nearly pulled the big prize. We missed out in the Prelim due to execution. There was absolutely nothing amiss with the fitness that he had control over.

2010 and 11 we had other issues.

2012 with a new coach, who required a totally different direction with more emphasis on strength. The fact that we played so many new players through 11 and 12 had much more to do with the late season form than anything that could be blamed on the fitness staff.

Thanks BJ, you took the words right out of my mouth.


Wait...what?

We can't blame the fitness staff for the player's fitness? If we weren't good enough then why did we look good enough in the front half of those seasons bar 11/12 then?

I didn't say that. I said we fell away in those seasons for other reasons not fitness.

[bornadog]

I felt under Daveron we looked very one paced. Too much long slow work and not enough repeat sprints etc.

Is this an observation or insider knowledge?

[SlimPickens]

In which years did we not have enough size to compete?

2008,9,10.....there was an earlier thread about Davoren where I've stated my opinion. No need to rehash old ground.

[Mantis]

I felt under Daveron we looked very one paced. Too much long slow work and not enough repeat sprints etc.

That's probably because we had a lot of 'one-pacers' in our team/ on our list.

[Mantis]

2008,9,10.....there was an earlier thread about Davoren where I've stated my opinion. No need to rehash old ground.

No doubt it's old ground, but I think you will find that through this time we were able to play a strong & contested game-style when needed (in the finals)... We just weren't quite good enough to close out matches.

[SlimPickens]

No doubt it's old ground, but I think you will find that through this time we were able to play a strong & contested game-style when needed (in the finals)... We just weren't quite good enough to close out matches.

Our finals record over those years was 3 wins and 6 loses. The teams that were above us on the ladder beat us in both qualifying and prelim finals. I don't see that as successful period as I felt at the time and still feel we couldn't compete with the bigger stronger teams at the time. So to that end I respectfully disagree.

[Bulldog Joe]

I for one don't see Davoren as the culprit in our fade outs last year.

There was a delibarate attempt to get games into young players and Macca has basically admitted that he sacrificed running fitness to build strength.

He has also stated that he has had more concentration on running in the 2013 pre-season so we will be able to stay in games longer.

Happy with how things looked in round 1 but don't see any need to pass blame onto Davoren.

[bornadog]

Our finals record over those years was 3 wins and 6 loses. The teams that were above us on the ladder beat us in both qualifying and prelim finals. I don't see that as successful period as I felt at the time and still feel we couldn't compete with the bigger stronger teams at the time. So to that end I respectfully disagree.

This has nothing to do with fitness, but rather lack of the right players. 2009 is an exception as the prelim could have gone either way.

[F'scary]

There seems to be a lot of talk on fitness brought up in the round 1 "Three Things Thread'.

Perhaps instead of derailing that we should continue any fitness discussion here.

I for one don't see Davoren as the culprit in our fade outs last year.

There was a delibarate attempt to get games into young players and Macca has basically admitted that he sacrificed running fitness to build strength.

He has also stated that he has had more concentration on running in the 2013 pre-season so we will be able to stay in games longer.

Happy with how things looked in round 1 but don't see any need to pass blame onto Davoren.

True but let's watch the Saints and see if Riewoldt is clutching his groin muscle on field.

[Bulldog Joe]

True but let's watch the Saints and see if Riewoldt is clutching his groin muscle on field.

Actually feel that Davoren has put himself under the pump by taking the Saints job.

They really need to bring on some players and he could find a similar situation as he faced with McCartney as they try players not ready to fully compete.

[Greystache]

I've moved the the relevant posts from the 3 things thread to here. Feel free to continue as there has been some good discussion on the topic.

[SlimPickens]

This has nothing to do with fitness, but rather lack of the right players. 2009 is an exception as the prelim could have gone either way.

The teams who beat us in those years were able to go harder, stronger and faster for longer. That has something to do with fitness.

No doubt what you have stated is also a contributing factor to our loses in those big games but to deny fitness may have at least played a role is too simplistic IMO,

Anyways agree to disagree.

[Topdog]

Saints have won 2 last qtrs this year. 2nd worst in the league just in front of GWS

[bornadog]

Saints have won 2 last qtrs this year. 2nd worst in the league just in front of GWS

Due to crap players not fitness.

[Topdog]

Able to win first, 2nd and 3rd quarters without a problem.

Plenty of Saints supporters argue that it is due to crap fitness too.

[GVGjr]

Able to win first, 2nd and 3rd quarters without a problem.

Plenty of Saints supporters argue that it is due to crap fitness too.

Yep the crap players argument doesn't quite stand up. They are fading late in quarters and in the 4th quarter most games much like we were last year.

Maybe it's playing some youngsters as well but they don't appear to be a 4 quarter fit enough unit yet.

[Greystache]

Saints have won 2 last qtrs this year. 2nd worst in the league just in front of GWS

Some pretty smart people thought he was a very average performer, glad he's at St Kilda and not with us.

[LostDoggy]

How come we faded in the first 15 minutes of the game?

[Doc26]

Able to win first, 2nd and 3rd quarters without a problem.

Plenty of Saints supporters argue that it is due to crap fitness too.

Davoren has certainly been in Mark Fine's crosshairs in recent weeks. He was pulling no punches yet again tonight on his evening show on Davoren's recruitment from us, drawing parallels on our 2012 fade outs and St.Kilda's of 2013.

[Remi Moses]

No, we don't want him back thank you

[Greystache]

Talk is circulating Davoren is gone from St Kilda.

I think we were pretty lucky he moved on from us.

[azabob]

Talk is circulating Davoren is gone from St Kilda.

I think we were pretty lucky he moved on from us.

A lot of talk around St.Kilda.

Watters on thin ice.

One minute senior players are up for trade, then they are not.

[Topdog]

Saints are nailed on for the spoon next year.

[azabob]

Talk is circulating Davoren is gone from St Kilda.

I think we were pretty lucky he moved on from us.

Apparently Collingwood are chasing him.

[Greystache]

Apparently Collingwood are chasing him.

Let's hope so.

[azabob]

Let's hope so.

How true it is, who knows. With the Eade link it certainly is possible.

[ratsmac]

Just saw Eddie Maguire on the news saying that they are wondering why Collingwood ran out of legs at the end of season and ended up with so many injuries. Hey Eddie come and read woof before you hire someone who used to work with the Bulldogs, we can give them the reference you are after.

[Go_Dogs]

Pretty interesting thread to read back over.

What is people's assessment on how our current guys are going? I remember seeing quite a bit of Andy when he first arrived via Club videos, but he seems to have been a bit quiet this past 12+ months.

[azabob]

Pretty interesting thread to read back over.

What is people's assessment on how our current guys are going? I remember seeing quite a bit of Andy when he first arrived via Club videos, but he seems to have been a bit quiet this past 12+ months.

Isn't he now the GM of footy?

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Pretty interesting thread to read back over.

What is people's assessment on how our current guys are going? I remember seeing quite a bit of Andy when he first arrived via Club videos, but he seems to have been a bit quiet this past 12+ months.

I'm pretty sure Cordy took over the role at the end of last year, after Andy was promoted to GM as azabob said above.

[Greystache]

Isn't he now the GM of footy?

That was Graeme Lowe. Andy Barnett is the strength and conditioning coach. Cordy is the fitness manager.

Our strength and muscle building programs have delivered better than at any other time in my memory so I'm pretty comfortable with Barnett, Cordy I don't really know.

[Greystache]

Just saw Eddie Maguire on the news saying that they are wondering why Collingwood ran out of legs at the end of season and ended up with so many injuries. Hey Eddie come and read woof before you hire someone who used to work with the Bulldogs, we can give them the reference you are after.

Bullshit. We'd have told Eddie he's a gun and to sign him for 10 years! :)

[Go_Dogs]

That was Graeme Lowe. Andy Barnett is the strength and conditioning coach. Cordy is the fitness manager.

Our strength and muscle building programs have delivered better than at any other time in my memory so I'm pretty comfortable with Barnett, Cordy I don't really know.

Thanks, sounds good. I was impressed with what I had seen early on in his tenure.

[Greystache]

Thanks, sounds good. I was impressed with what I had seen early on in his tenure.

Yeah me too. His speciality is niche, but he seems to be very very good at it.

[ledge]

Apparently Daveron is at the Eddie forum tonight claiming soft injuries were down this year.

[Daughter of the West]

Apparently Daveron is at the Eddie forum tonight claiming soft injuries were down this year.

Hard injuries were up then?