Brian Lake to Hawthorn

[always right]

Sorry AR, who is Mark Evans?

Hawthorn Football Manager I think.

[LostDoggy]

compensation. It is nowhere near enough to what we should have got for a contracted player. First round pick minimum.

Agreed

Either that or take Savage and the 27 to 21 move.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

compensation. It is nowhere near enough to what we should have got for a contracted player. First round pick minimum.

i agree. pick 27 should not have been involved in this deal.

should have been pick 21 and 41 for Lake. Done. Lets face it, pick 21 is essentially a 2nd round pick in a normal draft.

[bornadog]

Hawthorn Football Manager I think.

argh, thanks. Who knows what to believe.

If Lake has signed a new contract for less money, I would think it would be only if he was paid out by the dogs, or partly paid.

[bornadog]

From what I hear there was very little communication from coach to player in the 2nd half of the year so perhaps reading between the lines Brian felt he wasn't in our plans going forward.

This makes more sense than him wanting to just up and leave. As I have said, the feeling is he was pushed out. What I don't get is why wouldn't you want him at fullback? Why say to him you will be playing forward in the future? Why the lack of communication to him?

[LongWait]

argh, thanks. Who knows what to believe.

If Lake has signed a new contract for less money, I would think it would be only if he was paid out by the dogs, or partly paid.

General Manager of Football Operations at Hawthorn has confirmed that Lake has walked out on the final year of his deal with the Bulldogs. Speculation in The Age that Lake will sacrifice around $200k next year to play with the Hawks.

Football Nation, the source you were citing BAD, is a blog with a reputation for not letting the facts get in the way of a good story.

[LongWait]

From what I hear there was very little communication from coach to player in the 2nd half of the year so perhaps reading between the lines Brian felt he wasn't in our plans going forward.

Or reading between the lines, Brian didn't want to be in our plans going forward.

[jeemak]

compensation. It is nowhere near enough to what we should have got for a contracted player. First round pick minimum.

Fair enough.

I suppose the compensation we settled for might point to what Hawthorn were realistically able to source and willing to pay, but also to our contentment to see the back of Lake and his extremely large contract (and maybe his attitude).

It's OK for us to hold firm and demand higher compensation, but what would be the point in Hawthorn trading out a player or players capable of securring a first round pick to land Lake and unsettling their list? They're already under pressure to retain Young, Murphy and Gillham.

[stefoid]

Some clever chap on big footy noted that the Goddard's probable end of 1st round FA compo will push pick 27 back to 28. A tiny extra advantage to having pick 21.

[LostDoggy]

I've simmered a little since last night, still, as soon as I get to work I will be using works time to write a lengthy email to the club to voice my disapproval. I'm pretty sure I'll get a canned response or nothing at all but it will be good to get it all off my chest.

I've simmered also for a couple of reasons. We've essentially got hunter for lake plus some beneficial shuffling of draft picks. We are also much better placed for a significant free agency raid next year. More room in cap and won't lose Lake next year for nothing if we do sign an equally high-profile free agent (lake compo would therefore be worth nothing). Was Lake on veteran's list. If so, does anyone know who replaces him? I don't think we could have done a huge amount better for 31 year old - but it does make for an interesting year next year.

[Mofra]

argh, thanks. Who knows what to believe.

If Lake has signed a new contract for less money, I would think it would be only if he was paid out by the dogs, or partly paid.
Why on Earth would there be any obligation to pay out his contract if Lake has agree to a trade?
J-Mac mentioned we would not be making a salary contribution to Lake next year.

[azabob]

How do you know this? According to an article we are paying out his contract for next year, so i don't know what the truth is.?

see here (http://www.footballnation.com.au/afl/afl-clubs/hawks-swoop-on-lake/)

I know other posters have already responded but from interviews I have heard by Mark Evans and Marty Pask, it is a brand new contract and his current contract is void.

BAD I guess the reality is we won't know the full story surrounding why he has left and the contract status.

[Mofra]

Some clever chap on big footy noted that the Goddard's probable end of 1st round FA compo will push pick 27 back to 28. A tiny extra advantage to having pick 21.
... which pushes our compensation back to pick 22 if it's mid first round as seems to be a high possibility.

[LostDoggy]

What comes out of this to me is the realisation that Brian Lake is a strange man

Two years ago he held out for a contract figure which was way beyond that which the Club originally was prepared to pay and in so doing got the absolute maximum he could extract from us.

Now he turns his back on $200,000 per year so "he can play in a Grand Final." All of a sudden money is unimportant.

The more I look at this, the more I come to the conclusion that Lake simply wanted out, any way he could.

Don't let the door hit you on your way out, pal.

[Mofra]

^ $200k for one year - he is probably earning more in the second year than he would have with us.

[LongWait]

What comes out of this to me is the realisation that Brian Lake is a strange man

Two years ago he held out for a contract figure which was way beyond that which the Club originally was prepared to pay and in so doing got the absolute maximum he could extract from us.

Now he turns his back on $200,000 per year so "he can play in a Grand Final." All of a sudden money is unimportant.

The more I look at this, the more I come to the conclusion that Lake simply wanted out, any way he could.

Don't let the door hit you on your way out, pal.

This is my feeling as well.

[LostDoggy]

^ $200k for one year - he is probably earning more in the second year than he would have with us.

There is no way that could be given their commitments to Buddy, Mitchell, Cyril etc He would be way down on what we would have paid him.

[LongWait]

Retweet from Mark Robinson:

Lake "You go with him, I'll zone off", Gibson "No, you go with him, I'll zone off" Schoenmakers "Help!!!"

[Mantis]

I've simmered also for a couple of reasons. We've essentially got hunter for lake plus some beneficial shuffling of draft picks. We are also much better placed for a significant free agency raid next year. More room in cap and won't lose Lake next year for nothing if we do sign an equally high-profile free agent (lake compo would therefore be worth nothing). Was Lake on veteran's list. If so, does anyone know who replaces him? I don't think we could have done a huge amount better for 31 year old - but it does make for an interesting year next year.

We sure are financially?

But which other 'poorer' club in terms of financial wealth and performance hit pay dirt during the free agency period.. I know money is a powerful factor, but another poor season will make it tough to attract quality players as those that are eligible all want to move to successful teams, not rebuilding ones.

[LongWait]

We sure are financially?

But which other 'poorer' club in terms of financial wealth and performance hit pay dirt during the free agency period.. I know money is a powerful factor, but another poor season will make it tough to attract quality players as those that are eligible all want to move to successful teams, not rebuilding ones.

From what Smorgon has said earlier this year, I assume the free agents and players wanting a move that we will be after are the kids from Gold Coast and GWS. I doubt we will be trying to land a late 20's free agent like Goddard.

[Bulldog4life]

Whilst I'm struggling somewhat to rationalise why we needed to give up our pick 27 to make this deal happen can I at least share with you a snapshot of what our table, which did include some past greats of our Club, observed at the B&F last Saturday night from table Lake and Cooney who were sitting close by. I should preface this by stating that I'm questioning the cultural value rather than that of their football ability which is unquestionable.

Matthew Boyd, after being announced our three time Club Champion, was delivering his heartfelt acceptance speech whilst these two were totally engulfed in childlike behaviour playing iPhones.

This untimely, inappropriate behaviour did not go unnoticed from those around.

This from two of our supposed leaders who should be driving a culture that demands respect, ruthlessness and professionalism.

The observation was passed on the table that these two are just 'ferals'.

A small example maybe but gee it stood out as very disrespectful to someone who busts a gut like few others.

Thanks for sharing that Doc. An unfortunate insight to both Lake's and Cooney's attitude and character.

[LostDoggy]

From what Smorgon has said earlier this year, I assume the free agents and players wanting a move that we will be after are the kids from Gold Coast and GWS. I doubt we will be trying to land a late 20's free agent like Goddard.

I thought all free agents had to be in their mid to late 20s by the nature of the rules (ie 7yrs service). I am thinking we will be going for uncontracted younger players from GWS and GC and using our salary cap and good PSD position to leverage homesick players to us for no draft pick cost. Will be interesting.

[LostDoggy]

Geez I'll miss Brian. Regardless of his age, his broken body, his value next year in the free agency I will miss his class, poise under pressure, kicking action, politeness with fans (including that smirk he does a lot).

Good Luck Brian, you will be sorely missed at our club. :(

[LongWait]

I thought all free agents had to be in their mid to late 20s by the nature of the rules (ie 7yrs service). I am thinking we will be going for uncontracted younger players from GWS and GC and using our salary cap and good PSD position to leverage homesick players to us for no draft pick cost. Will be interesting.

Players who are delisted are free agents regardless of length of service, however I think we will target players who want a move from Gold Coast and GWS regardless of their contract status.

[G-Mo77]

I've simmered also for a couple of reasons. We've essentially got hunter for lake plus some beneficial shuffling of draft picks. We are also much better placed for a significant free agency raid next year. More room in cap and won't lose Lake next year for nothing if we do sign an equally high-profile free agent (lake compo would therefore be worth nothing). Was Lake on veteran's list. If so, does anyone know who replaces him? I don't think we could have done a huge amount better for 31 year old - but it does make for an interesting year next year.

I keep hearing this but we'd be in the same position had we kept Lake and dropped him off the books when his contract ran out after next season. Front loading or bringing in a higher priced player through trade is the only real advantage in dumping Lake's contract now.

If Lake walked away as a FA after next season we would have got compensated for it which probably would have been a 2nd round pick or at worst a 3rd and that's pretty much all we got for him yesterday. That is of course he got through injury free.

We weren't desperate to sell and Hawthorn were desperate to buy yet we give them a little extra to take the deal. It doesn't make any sense to me. I've got a mate who sells cars, I should give him JMac's number. :p

Anyway I wrote my email out this morning but will wait until the end of the trade period before I send it out. I don't expect any redemption but as a Bulldog supporter I live with hope. :o

[bulldogsthru&thru]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/afl/hawthorn-jags-brian-lake-from-the-western-bulldogs/story-fnahs424-1226490817177

BAD was correct in saying Lake would be played in attack for the remainder of his career as a dog. The idea?....to restructure the defense around Michael Talia, Fletcher Roberts, Tom Williams, Lukas Markovic and Jordan Roughead

[bornadog]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/afl/hawthorn-jags-brian-lake-from-the-western-bulldogs/story-fnahs424-1226490817177

BAD was correct in saying Lake would be played in attack for the remainder of his career as a dog. The idea?....to restructure the defense around Michael Talia, Fletcher Roberts, Tom Williams, Lukas Markovic and Jordan Roughead

Markovic - gee we are stuck with him now:mad:

[Bulldog4life]

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/afl/hawthorn-jags-brian-lake-from-the-western-bulldogs/story-fnahs424-1226490817177

BAD was correct in saying Lake would be played in attack for the remainder of his career as a dog. The idea?....to restructure the defense around Michael Talia, Fletcher Roberts, Tom Williams, Lukas Markovic and Jordan Roughead

So he sooked and wanted out. Not a team player. You play where the team wants you to play. Happy to see the back of him.

[LostDoggy]

I keep hearing this but we'd be in the same position had we kept Lake and dropped him off the books when his contract ran out after next season. Front loading or bringing in a higher priced player through trade is the only real advantage in dumping Lake's contract now.

If Lake walked away as a FA after next season we would have got compensated for it which probably would have been a 2nd round pick or at worst a 3rd and that's pretty much all we got for him yesterday. That is of course he got through injury free.

We weren't desperate to sell and Hawthorn were desperate to buy yet we give them a little extra to take the deal. It doesn't make any sense to me. I've got a mate who sells cars, I should give him JMac's number. :p

Anyway I wrote my email out this morning but will wait until the end of the trade period before I send it out. I don't expect any redemption but as a Bulldog supporter I live with hope. :o
If he walks next year we probably get nothing (if we land a FA - which is a big if), but if Melbourne can land Mitch Clarke, surely we can do the same. I wasn't a huge fan of the deal to begin with but I think our footy department is being pragmatic in what is a tough situation. Atleast we are calling the shots rather than letting afl determine compensation.

[westbulldog]

Markovic - gee we are stuck with him now:mad:


Josh Kennedy of WCE for the 2013 Coleman medal..........

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

What comes out of this to me is the realisation that Brian Lake is a strange man

Two years ago he held out for a contract figure which was way beyond that which the Club originally was prepared to pay and in so doing got the absolute maximum he could extract from us.

Now he turns his back on $200,000 per year so "he can play in a Grand Final." All of a sudden money is unimportant.

The more I look at this, the more I come to the conclusion that Lake simply wanted out, any way he could.

Don't let the door hit you on your way out, pal.
You would have to question the wisdom of Hawthorn recruiting Lake at 31yo after two disappointing seasons by his standard. It wasn't the Hawks backline that cost it the Premiership but wayward kicking from its forward line. Read doc26's comments regarding Lake's attitude together with Adam Cooney at the Best and Fairest Medal night, which was very disappointing to say the least. I like BMcC's approach which I believe is to build a new culture similar to what he played a big part in at Geelong over 10 years. Having 6 players to be drafted in the top 50 has to be a bonus with three in the first round.

[bornadog]

Josh Kennedy of WCE for the 2013 Coleman medal..........

Lets hope we don't play them twice:D:D

[F'scary]

If we piss their pick 21 on Dawes, the club house will be burned down


I'll provide the matches.


I'll meet you with the petrol.

I can assist by preventing people from escaping

[LostDoggy]

You would have to question the wisdom of Hawthorn recruiting Lake at 31yo after two disappointing seasons by his standard. It wasn't the Hawks backline that cost it the Premiership but wayward kicking from its forward line. Read doc26's comments regarding Lake's attitude together with Adam Cooney at the Best and Fairest Medal night, which was very disappointing to say the least. I like BMcC's approach which I believe is to build a new culture similar to what he played a big part in at Geelong over 10 years. Having 6 players to be drafted in the top 50 has to be a bonus with three in the first round.

That's the real issue and perhaps the greatest challenge for the club, in a playing sense, ever.

We could use the six picks on players like Walshe, J Grant, Koops, Stack, Tutt and Wight.

Or our Recruiters might actually pick some good ones.

[Ghost Dog]

If he walks next year we probably get nothing (if we land a FA - which is a big if), but if Melbourne can land Mitch Clarke, surely we can do the same. I wasn't a huge fan of the deal to begin with but I think our footy department is being pragmatic in what is a tough situation. Atleast we are calling the shots rather than letting afl determine compensation.

Well said. At least we are trying something and being proactive. Taking 'the game on' and the more I read Doc26's comments about Brian's behavior on BF night , the better I feel about this whole thing anyway. Here's hoping we look back at pick 21, a gun player and say well done Bmac.

If anything it gives me something to read and discuss during the post season!

[angelopetraglia]

Right decision. Wrong decision. This still makes me feel sick :(

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A4uij1pCMAA9HfU.jpg

[whythelongface]

Just an observation on Brian but it all seems to be about him (not only this trade but other past dealings he has had with the club or individuals within the club). This is not a criticism of the man, merely an observation. This is in contrast to others (Murphy, Boyd etc.) where it appears that they are more team oriented and bleed the red, white and blue.

[whythelongface]

Right decision. Wrong decision. This still makes me feel sick :(

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A4uij1pCMAA9HfU.jpg

The colours really don't suit him!!!

[Murphy'sLore]

Yuk.

But for some reason this doesn't feel as gutting as when Ward left. Felt physically sick the first time I saw Callan in the orange jumper.

[DOG GOD]

No one looks good in poo and pee :)

[Mofra]

Is that a gut on Brian?

[whythelongface]

Is that a gut on Brian?

It does look like it.

[always right]

Hard enough seeing Brian in that offensive uniform....even worse seeing him standing next to that sanctimonious little dwarf.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

Read doc26's comments regarding Lake's attitude together with Adam Cooney at the Best and Fairest Medal night, which was very disappointing to say the least.



where are these comments? what happened?

[stefoid]

... which pushes our compensation back to pick 22 if it's mid first round as seems to be a high possibility.

How old is goddard? yeah I guess he could be a mid first round, -damn

[Mofra]

Could end up being pick 22 which is a second rounder most years.

Melbourne, GCS & GWS doing very well this trade period. We're being left out in the cold it seems.

[Maddog37]

Could end up being pick 22 which is a second rounder most years.

Melbourne, GCS & GWS doing very well this trade period. We're being left out in the cold it seems.


GWS and GC have a huge leg up with mini draft picks etc. Melbourne are being proactive and good on them. They have already tried the path of just using high picks on kids and stuffed it up.

[craigsahibee]

Brian Who?

I'm moving on.

[Bulldog4life]

Is that a gut on Brian?

Thought the same thing

[chef]

Mark Robinson retweeted this:

Lake "You go with him, I'll zone off", Gibson "No, you go with him, I'll zone off" Schoenmakers "Help!!!"

[I'm Not Bitter Anymore!]

If you rip the number 3 off your jumper you'll have instant Dahlhaus or conversely Wallis. Does anyone remember Luke Penny - another full back who couldn't wait to leave the club.

[LostDoggy]

If you rip the number 3 off your jumper you'll have instant Dahlhaus or conversely Wallis. Does anyone remember Luke Penny - another full back who couldn't wait to leave the club.


I don't think we have lost out in the trade for Lakey all things considered.

I can tell you, for sure though, I think we got an absolute bargain with Lukey!

[GVGjr]

From what I hear there was very little communication from coach to player in the 2nd half of the year so perhaps reading between the lines Brian felt he wasn't in our plans going forward.

He's had an uneasy time with the coaching teams over the last few years. Perhaps it's a change for the best.

[Ghost Dog]

He's had an uneasy time with the coaching teams over the last few years. Perhaps it's a change for the best.

Seem to recall Eade being frustrated by his lack of attention during team meetings.

[AndrewP6]

Just slightly off topic... Anyone know how other players are made aware of trades like this? Given they're on holidays now, do they get email/text/ phone calls from the club, or do they leave it to the player themselves to let others know? Just interested in the process...

[azabob]

Just slightly off topic... Anyone know how other players are made aware of trades like this? Given they're on holidays now, do they get email/text/ phone calls from the club, or do they leave it to the player themselves to let others know? Just interested in the process...

Tippett apparently sent a group text message and got the club to email.

I'd imagine Lake would've told a couple of close mates at the club before it happened though.

But yes, kind of interesting to see how it would happen.

[Doc26]

Tippett apparently sent a group text message and got the club to email.

I'd imagine Lake would've told a couple of close mates at the club before it happened though.

But yes, kind of interesting to see how it would happen.

Maybe that's what Lake was doing on his iPhone during Boydy's acceptance speech :rolleyes:

[LostDoggy]

Well he tweeted "Thankyou to the @westernbulldogs and supporters I have loved my time at the doggies. A new challenge awaits @HawthornFC" on the evening of the 7th ...

[azabob]

Maybe that's what Lake was doing on his iPhone during Boydy's acceptance speech :rolleyes:

But at least when they were on their iPhone during Body's speech there backs where to the stage :o.

[Doc26]

But at least when they were on their iPhone during Body's speech there backs where to the stage :o.

You must've been there as well then Azabob. Yes, Cooney and Lake's backs were both to the stage when playing around during Boydy's speech. Can see it soon becoming exit stage left for both lads under the new regime. With that said, I actually feel for Adam as his currency as an AFL footballer is rapidly becoming little more than a Greek drachma and yet feel he could still offer so much more to the Club if he grew up.

[F'scary]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A4uij1pCMAA9HfU.jpg

The huge gut shows that Lake is not just past it, he is pasta it.

[azabob]

You must've been there as well then Azabob. Yes, Cooney and Lake's backs were both to the stage when playing around during Boydy's speech. Can see it soon becoming exit stage left for both lads under the new regime. With that said, I actually feel for Adam as his currency as an AFL footballer is rapidly becoming little more than a Greek drachma and yet feel he could still offer so much more to the Club if he grew up.

That I was, table in front of Lake, Cooney, Picken and Hill I think.

Enjoyed the night, but I was disappointed and couldn't understand why people were talking during speeches, especially during Mitches I thought.

[AndrewP6]

You must've been there as well then Azabob. Yes, Cooney and Lake's backs were both to the stage when playing around during Boydy's speech. Can see it soon becoming exit stage left for both lads under the new regime. With that said, I actually feel for Adam as his currency as an AFL footballer is rapidly becoming little more than a Greek drachma and yet feel he could still offer so much more to the Club if he grew up.

He could offer so much more to the club if he grew some new knee cartilage. Can only imagine how gutting it must be when you should be in your prime and fate deals you the hand he got.

[Doc26]

He could offer so much more to the club if he grew some new knee cartilage. Can only imagine how gutting it must be when you should be in your prime and fate deals you the hand he got.

But Andrew that's hardly a reality and yes it must be very frustrating for him to be somewhat cut down in his prime.

Assuming he wishes to maintain a level of currency in the game and under a new regime that is demanding a 'different' Culture he needs to reinvent himself which in no small part will mean setting a standard expected of our new leaders for the kids to follow.

His days of getting by as elite footballer part time clown are now dead IF he wants to partake in the future of the Club. It is not the direction or standard that McCartney will tolerate.

I've been an admirer of Adam's elite football ability from day one and don't want him lost to the game or in particular our Club prematurely when he could have a significant role to play with the development of out list.

[AndrewP6]

But Andrew that's hardly a reality and yes it must be very frustrating for him to be somewhat cut down in his prime.

I'm fully aware it isn't reality, what I was getting at is that he can't get near his best and that has to be incredibly difficult, given what he is (was) capable of. I don't blame him one bit for doing what he can to keep himself going mentally, when he's limited physically to the exercise bike at training, and on game day, to being virtually support staff.


His days of getting by as elite footballer part time clown are now dead IF he wants to partake in the future of the Club. It is not the direction or standard that McCartney will tolerate.

All that because the guy was on the phone at an Awards night? Been there, done that. It's the digital age, everyone lives their lives on the mobile...

[Doc26]

That I was, table in front of Lake, Cooney, Picken and Hill I think.

Enjoyed the night, but I was disappointed and couldn't understand why people were talking during speeches, especially during Mitches I thought.

We must've been on adjacent tables. Dale Morris was also on their table although as we might expect didn't appear to involve himself in their little games.

Actually not sure if I've read it anywhere else but Mitch's speech was a standout for me especially for a kid. Certainly sounds like a leader at a young age, maybe our Cotchin. Can remember his father having similar qualities at a similar age.

[LostDoggy]

Good luck to Brian. He made a decision he thought was best for him and his family. A lot of negative posts towards him. After all that he gave for the club, I think he deserves better. But that's football.

[Doc26]

All that because the guy was on the phone at an Awards night? Been there, done that. It's the digital age, everyone lives their lives on the mobile...

Maybe I take the history of our Club and what our B&F represents being a celebration, and reminder and recognition of those that have given so much, including Adam, too seriously. Maybe only another Awards night for some. Our inaugural Club Legend to which the Award is named after, Charlie Sutton, of course only recently passed away. This night had a bit more emotion to it than past years as this night was in equal parts a tribute to the late and great Charlie. His family were invited as special guests on the night, seated at a table no more than five metres away from table Cooney and Lake. In fact it was Charlie's son who stood in for his father to pass on the Award to Matthew for his stellar season. Yes Andrew it is the digital age and yes everyone does seem to live on mobile devices but then there is a time and a place for such use before decent manners is simply foregone and respect for others lost.

[Dry Rot]

But Andrew that's hardly a reality and yes it must be very frustrating for him to be somewhat cut down in his prime.

Assuming he wishes to maintain a level of currency in the game and under a new regime that is demanding a 'different' Culture he needs to reinvent himself which in no small part will mean setting a standard expected of our new leaders for the kids to follow.

His days of getting by as elite footballer part time clown are now dead IF he wants to partake in the future of the Club. It is not the direction or standard that McCartney will tolerate.

I've been an admirer of Adam's elite football ability from day one and don't want him lost to the game or in particular our Club prematurely when he could have a significant role to play with the development of out list.

If we're serious about rebuilding, we should pay Cooney out now and delist him.

Pointless having him on the list in 2013.

[PedroArvy]

I agree, Cooney is dead weight.

[Doc26]

If we're serious about rebuilding, we should pay Cooney out now and delist him.

Pointless having him on the list in 2013.

DR, this is one argument that I can understand.

We have lost a lot of experience over the past couple of years and we do need leaders to help the kids along the way. Even GWS brought in their fair share of 'Expendables' to help pave the road for them.

My point on Adam is that he can still provide value in 2013 IF he can learn to adapt quickly to his enforced changed circumstances. He has enough current experience at the highest level to impart a great deal of knowledge onto the kids whilst still playing a tailored role given his knee holds up.

Adam needs to build up his currency in other ways IF he is to stay a part of the future.

Whilst it's not a hanging offence to elect to be more interested in what's going on with a smartphone with a now ex Clubman during your Captain's acceptance speech I believe Adam needs to make smarter decisions and show he's got more to offer the Team IF he is serious about prolonging his career.

[Sedat]

I reckon there has been some very harsh comments on Lake. He gave us incredible service for the vast majority of his time at the club, and in many of those seasons he was being paid way under the odds for the high quality output he was giving us. I understand the rationale in trading him (although I am unhappy with the compensation we've received and the rash haste in finalising the deal) but I think there has been some quite scathing and vitriolic comments aimed at his attitude and general demeanour. I remember a brilliant key defender who marshalled our back 6 during the exciting contending years of 2008-2010, and I also remember several brilliant performances in finals, some of which he had no right to be playing in (the 2010 finals series springs too mind).

Thanks for the memories Brian, and I genuinely appreciate the wholehearted effort you gave out on the field for the majority of your time at the club. You will not be easily replaced.

[China Dog]

I'm personally happy with the decision to trade Lake. He was a great player in his early days with us, but the last few years have been poor (injuries, attitude, commitment). The dogs have made an applaudable decision, in the best interest of developing a strong club in the future. We now need to move on a couple of others that also lack the commitment and attitude we need for success - i.e. Sherman, Grant and Vespremi. We then need to take full advantage of the draft opportunities we have secured!

[Dry Rot]

DR, this is one argument that I can understand.

We have lost a lot of experience over the past couple of years and we do need leaders to help the kids along the way. Even GWS brought in their fair share of 'Expendables' to help pave the road for them.

My point on Adam is that he can still provide value in 2013 IF he can learn to adapt quickly to his enforced changed circumstances. He has enough current experience at the highest level to impart a great deal of knowledge onto the kids whilst still playing a tailored role given his knee holds up.

Adam needs to build up his currency in other ways IF he is to stay a part of the future.

Whilst it's not a hanging offence to elect to be more interested in what's going on with a smartphone with a now ex Clubman during your Captain's acceptance speech I believe Adam needs to make smarter decisions and show he's got more to offer the Team IF he is serious about prolonging his career.

While his behaviour that night wasn't flash, my point is not about that.

I cannot recall a club giving a player a third year getting himself right like this, and this is a degenerative condition. At the same time we're giving a chance to another player who suffered a broken leg few have come back from (FWIW I don't mind giving Morris a chance).

It is highly likely Cooney will regularly be unable to play, and even when he does mostly he won't be too great.

I'd rather give his spot to a rookie, even Jong, or give a young kid a chance.

[bornadog]

It is highly likely Cooney will regularly be unable to play, and even when he does mostly he won't be too great.

I'd rather give his spot to a rookie, even Jong, or give a young kid a chance.

I heard the club say today that they are trying to manage his knee and are hopeful he can play up to 18 games next year. If he can hit form like he did late in this season when he got 3 brownlow votes, the club said they would be wrapped.

[Dry Rot]

I heard the club say today that they are trying to manage his knee and are hopeful he can play up to 18 games next year. If he can hit form like he did late in this season when he got 3 brownlow votes, the club said they would be wrapped.

How likely is that?

And how many other injured players at other clubs have had this run?

[Doc26]

While his behaviour that night wasn't flash, my point is not about that.

I cannot recall a club giving a player a third year getting himself right like this, and this is a degenerative condition. At the same time we're giving a chance to another player who suffered a broken leg few have come back from (FWIW I don't mind giving Morris a chance).

It is highly likely Cooney will regularly be unable to play, and even when he does mostly he won't be too great.

I'd rather give his spot to a rookie, even Jong, or give a young kid a chance.

Sorry DR, I wasn't suggesting you had any issues with Adam's behaviour that night and to be honest I don't wish to harp on it or sit on some ivory tower about it.

My thoughts are simply that we've lost a whole lot of experience in recent years and could see Adam filling a void in the departure of experienced personnel who can guide and pave the way for an abundance of kids. To offer this, Adam needs to first identify with this and then adapt to role model the behaviour and culture the Club is heading down to increase his currency.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on your call or Pedro's but I'm still holding some faith in Adam albeit not a great deal.

[Dry Rot]

Sorry DR, I wasn't suggesting you had any issues with Adam's behaviour that night and to be honest I don't wish to harp on it or sit on some ivory tower about it.

My thoughts are simply that we've lost a whole lot of experience in recent years and could see Adam filling a void in the departure of experienced personnel who can guide and pave the way for an abundance of kids. To offer this, Adam needs to first identify with this and then adapt to role model the behaviour and culture the Club is heading down to increase his currency.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on your call or Pedro's but I'm still holding some faith in Adam albeit not a great deal.

See where you coming from re experience, but as you say is he a good role model?

On that basis, I can understand keeping say Crossy or Morris on an extra year, but not Cooney.

[Doc26]

See where you coming from re experience, but as you say is he a good role model?

On that basis, I can understand keeping say Crossy or Morris on an extra year, but not Cooney.

From a slightly different angle and maybe somewhat foolishly I have too much respect for both Daniel and Dale from the way they have held themselves not to afford them some credit to make the right decision on their time remaining, that would be based on the best interests of the Club and Team.

[Ghost Dog]

The other view is that the club is doing Brian a favor and being respectful in cutting him lose as he simply wants a change.
If he truly wanted to chase a premiership, I think he has given enough service to honor that.
He was one of my favorites and I will never forget the booming goal from 60m out earler in the year, and many other bits of class. I was always banging on about how we should play him forward. My dream cut too short!

[always right]

Bo doubt it is gpoing to be difficult watching Brian play against us....particularly if Buddy is tearing us a new one at the other end. One of my fondest memories is Lake dominating Buddy over several seasons following Buddy's domination of us in "that final".

[whythelongface]

The other view is that the club is doing Brian a favor and being respectful in cutting him lose as he simply wants a change.
If he truly wanted to chase a premiership, I think he has given enough service to honor that.
He was one of my favorites and I will never forget the booming goal from 60m out earler in the year, and many other bits of class. I was always banging on about how we should play him forward. My dream cut too short!


Good points and kudos to the club in allowing him to follow his dream. The club could have turned around and said "no stuff you; you are still contracted for next year" which would not have achieved anything. The club obviously realised that it would be better to get something now of at least some value rather that relying on the AFL to determine our compensation when he would have been a free agent.

[whythelongface]

If we're serious about rebuilding, we should pay Cooney out now and delist him.

Pointless having him on the list in 2013.

That is a good point and one that I have thought about as well. Is there any worth in keeping him on the list?

For some reason I still believe he can add value. There were glimpses of his ability last season. Maybe I am hoping that somehow his knee suddenly repairs itself or there is some form of medical breakthrough that repairs cartilage.

[Maddog37]

I thought the last few weeks were a bit of a breakthrough for Coons. He played well and got about 30 touches in back to back games. I personally feel he has taken a long time to adjust mentally to what needs to be done for him to be a valuable team member rather than the star.

He seemed to feel the weight of the world as he expected to be the Adam Cooney of old and if he couldnt do that he was a failure. I think he has sublime skill and good speed still and if he can find his role then he will still be a very good player. He still has his footy brain and he is smart enough to adjust.

[stefoid]

I think thats the nature of his knee though, it goes through cycles of being OK and then not OK. Which means he cant train consistently.

[LostDoggy]

Until the medicos and Cooney say enough is enough, and he is finished, we should try to move heaven and earth to get this bloke on the park because he is a champion and no number of Jong's or Johannisens etc will ever reach his level.

Any thought of delisting him before that time is arrant nonsense.

[bornadog]

Until the medicos and Cooney say enough is enough, and he is finished, we should try to move heaven and earth to get this bloke on the park because he is a champion and no number of Jong's or Johannisens etc will ever reach his level.

Any thought of delisting him before that time is arrant noinsense.

This ^^^

[EasternWest]

I reckon there has been some very harsh comments on Lake. He gave us incredible service for the vast majority of his time at the club, and in many of those seasons he was being paid way under the odds for the high quality output he was giving us. I understand the rationale in trading him (although I am unhappy with the compensation we've received and the rash haste in finalising the deal) but I think there has been some quite scathing and vitriolic comments aimed at his attitude and general demeanour. I remember a brilliant key defender who marshalled our back 6 during the exciting contending years of 2008-2010, and I also remember several brilliant performances in finals, some of which he had no right to be playing in (the 2010 finals series springs too mind).

Thanks for the memories Brian, and I genuinely appreciate the wholehearted effort you gave out on the field for the majority of your time at the club. You will not be easily replaced.

Good one Sedat. I agree with you, as usual.

Brian has always been a bit different, maybe Brian centric, but I can live with that. He was a huge part of our push for a flag and gave us everything he could. Perhaps my favourite memory will be how much he dominate Franklin after Franklin killed us in the 08 QF.

He was a wonderful player for us, and I'll miss watching him clunk marks in our backline.

But our club is bigger than one man. It's a risky, bold trade, and as much as I can't say I love it, I applaud the club for being on the front foot.


The other view is that the club is doing Brian a favor and being respectful in cutting him lose as he simply wants a change.
If he truly wanted to chase a premiership, I think he has given enough service to honor that.
He was one of my favorites and I will never forget the booming goal from 60m out earler in the year, and many other bits of class. I was always banging on about how we should play him forward. My dream cut too short!

Also a good point GD. I disagree about the playing forward part, but that's been done to death. As we're unlikely to be in the mix for the next two years, good luck to him, dammit.

[Guido]

Allowed a couple of days to settle myself down, but still can't believe it.

THEY were desperate for this trade, not us. We held all of the cards - our contracted player could not go to them unless we gave him clearance. And yet read all of the articles from within the club, and this "poor us" defeatist bullshit runs ragged. "We had to trade him", "there was only one suitor", "Big Bad Free Agency is coming, what else could we do?".

"We only had one club interested" Jason McCartney says. Who gives a shit how many suitors there are? What that one suitor is prepared to pay - for a premiership- is all that matters. THEY were the party that were desperate for OUR asset, we weren't the party desperate for a pick swap and a pick in the 40s. They wanted it done THIS trade period, not next. Brian Lake wanted the security of a two year contract, this season, not next. They didn't want to wait another year and think "what if we had have been prepared to trade that little bit more for Lake?" after another Grand Final loss.

We held all of the cards, and somehow walked away the loser.

I personally only know two people directly involved at AFL clubs, one at the Pies and one at the Hawks. I can tell you for a fact that they are laughing at us at Hawthorn. They cannot believe how quick, easy and painless this was. They expected to, and were prepared to pay more.

[LostDoggy]

Allowed a couple of days to settle myself down, but still can't believe it.

THEY were desperate for this trade, not us. We held all of the cards - our contracted player could not go to them unless we gave him clearance. And yet read all of the articles from within the club, and this "poor us" defeatist bullshit runs ragged. "We had to trade him", "there was only one suitor", "Big Bad Free Agency is coming, what else could we do?".

"We only had one club interested" Jason McCartney says. Who gives a shit how many suitors there are? What that one suitor is prepared to pay - for a premiership- is all that matters. THEY were the party that were desperate for OUR asset, we weren't the party desperate for a pick swap and a pick in the 40s. They wanted it done THIS trade period, not next. Brian Lake wanted the security of a two year contract, this season, not next. They didn't want to wait another year and think "what if we had have been prepared to trade that little bit more for Lake?" after another Grand Final loss.

We held all of the cards, and somehow walked away the loser.

I personally only know two people directly involved at AFL clubs, one at the Pies and one at the Hawks. I can tell you for a fact that they are laughing at us at Hawthorn. They cannot believe how quick, easy and painless this was. They expected to, and were prepared to pay more.

Spot on. This is why I'm against the Bulldogs trading. Because we pit our amateur negotiaters against the best in the business. We are too easily bluffed and manipulated. We need to recognise our weaknesses and not play a game others are better at. I'm not saying don't trade becaue we invariably need to but work out the value yourself and don't put yourself in a position to be smooth talked and manipulated by these higher payed and more experienced operaters.

[Remi Moses]

Disagree entirely. Players who are 30 , F/a pending, team not in flag mode are going to be traded. Would have got a pittance and paid him big coin when he doesn't want to be there!
Pro active move and should be applauded

[Sedat]

Allowed a couple of days to settle myself down, but still can't believe it.

THEY were desperate for this trade, not us. We held all of the cards - our contracted player could not go to them unless we gave him clearance. And yet read all of the articles from within the club, and this "poor us" defeatist bullshit runs ragged. "We had to trade him", "there was only one suitor", "Big Bad Free Agency is coming, what else could we do?".

"We only had one club interested" Jason McCartney says. Who gives a shit how many suitors there are? What that one suitor is prepared to pay - for a premiership- is all that matters. THEY were the party that were desperate for OUR asset, we weren't the party desperate for a pick swap and a pick in the 40s. They wanted it done THIS trade period, not next. Brian Lake wanted the security of a two year contract, this season, not next. They didn't want to wait another year and think "what if we had have been prepared to trade that little bit more for Lake?" after another Grand Final loss.

We held all of the cards, and somehow walked away the loser.

I personally only know two people directly involved at AFL clubs, one at the Pies and one at the Hawks. I can tell you for a fact that they are laughing at us at Hawthorn. They cannot believe how quick, easy and painless this was. They expected to, and were prepared to pay more.
Well said Guido. And well spotted on the language used to explain the decision. It was not assertive and it did reek of the 'downtrodden' mantra that we have been spending years trying to extricate ourselves away from.

[craigsahibee]

Brian has always been a bit different, maybe Brian centric, but I can live with that. He was a huge part of our push for a flag and gave us everything he could. Perhaps my favourite memory will be how much he dominate Franklin after Franklin killed us in the 08 QF.



Maybe that's why Hawthorn targeted him. Along the same lines of the jokes circulating in the mid 90's when Gary Ablett Snr was rumoured to be coming out of retirement. The Tigers were going to draft him just to stop him from kicking 14 goals from a wing each time he played against them.

[bornadog]

Maybe that's why Hawthorn targeted him. Along the same lines of the jokes circulating in the mid 90's when Gary Ablett Snr was rumoured to be coming out of retirement. The Tigers were going to draft him just to stop him from kicking 14 goals from a wing each time he played against them.

I read somewhere that the Hawks have enquired about Lake for the past three seasons.

[LostDoggy]

Spot on. This is why I'm against the Bulldogs trading. Because we pit our amateur negotiaters against the best in the business. We are too easily bluffed and manipulated. We need to recognise our weaknesses and not play a game others are better at. I'm not saying don't trade becaue we invariably need to but work out the value yourself and don't put yourself in a position to be smooth talked and manipulated by these higher payed and more experienced operaters.

Now there's a bit of two bob each way.

The isue here is not whether to trade, it is recogmising the need to put qualified negotiators in there to look after our interests.

[Desipura]

I read somewhere that the Hawks have enquired about Lake for the past three seasons.
Thats true, not many on here wanted to believe it though.

[Mantis]

I read somewhere that the Hawks have enquired about Lake for the past three seasons.

Our standard response should have been on each instance - *!*!*!*! off he is a required player.

[Maddog37]

AM I wrong in suggesting it was Pasks idea?

I thought I read he reckoned it would be good to tell the club Brian wants out and we get something this year or nothing next year.

I would be very hesitant in dealing with him in the future.

[LongWait]

If you want to know why Lake is gone listen again to McCartney's speech at the Sutton Medal night and put that alongside what we suspect about Lake being unhappy to play anywhere but full-back and Pask initiating the trade. Boom - there it is. Both player and club had had enough.

[LostDoggy]

If you want to know why Lake is gone listen again to McCartney's speech at the Sutton Medal night and put that alongside what we suspect about Lake being unhappy to play anywhere but full-back and Pask initiating the trade. Boom - there it is. Both player and club had had enough.

Thats totally fine and assuming they both wanted out then totally cool. Why not get "we're going to help you win a flag" value though and sorry 41 isn't it. I don't want to be hawthorns lady friend and I feel like they took us a quickie and stole $20 from our wallet for a cab ride home. Trade the bloke but maybe we could fight for our position rather than offering up the neck? We've been ridden long and hard on this one make no mistake. Maybe the Hawks will feel like they owe us one in 6 years when our positions are reversed? Or maybe a side of bacon just flew past my window.....

[Remi Moses]

If you want to know why Lake is gone listen again to McCartney's speech at the Sutton Medal night and put that alongside what we suspect about Lake being unhappy to play anywhere but full-back and Pask initiating the trade. Boom - there it is. Both player and club had had enough.

Agree, tail shouldn't be wagging the dog.
A certain Brad Hardie tried that on and rightly was dispatched to the Bears.
Good luck to him

[Doc26]

What is somewhat urking me right now is the proliferation of smug Hawthorn supporters coming up to me at work with smug looking grins on their faces who believe they've been given Lake on a plate for virtually nothing and who wish to gloat about it at our supposed expense.

To a man they all seem to believe pick 21 and 41 would've cut the deal when it came down to it.

I can live with the decision to move Brian on, in fact support it for the right price, but I am still struggling big time with giving away our pick 27 for their pick 21 to make this happen. It is this piece alone that is sitting uneasy with me.

Just when you thought this damn awful season was over I still find myself contending with these smug Hawthorn types. The last one who came by not 10 minutes ago was eager to let me know how he hasn't been able to raise a smile since the Grand Final loss but how this 'bargain' has quickly changed all of that around for him.

[LostDoggy]

What is somewhat urking me right now is the proliferation of smug Hawthorn supporters coming up to me at work with huge grins on their faces who believe they've been given Lake on a plate for virtually nothing.

To a man they all believe pick 21 and 41 would've cut the deal when it came down to it.

I can live with the decision to move Brian on, in fact support it for the right price, but I am still struggling big time with giving away our pick 27 for their pick 21 to make this happen. It is this piece alone that is sitting uneasy with me.

Just when you thought this damn awful season was over I still find myself contending with these smug Hawthorn types. The last one who came by not 10 minutes ago was eager to let me know how he hasn't been able to raise a smile since the Grand Final loss but how this 'bargain' has quickly changed all of that around for him.

And you're not on you're own there. It's not only Hawthorn supporters but all other club's supporters who are certain that we gave him away.

I'm heartily sick of it because it's hard to argue against.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

What is somewhat urking me right now is the proliferation of smug Hawthorn supporters coming up to me at work with smug looking grins on their faces who believe they've been given Lake on a plate for virtually nothing and who wish to gloat about it at our supposed expense.

To a man they all seem to believe pick 21 and 41 would've cut the deal when it came down to it.

I can live with the decision to move Brian on, in fact support it for the right price, but I am still struggling big time with giving away our pick 27 for their pick 21 to make this happen. It is this piece alone that is sitting uneasy with me.

Just when you thought this damn awful season was over I still find myself contending with these smug Hawthorn types. The last one who came by not 10 minutes ago was eager to let me know how he hasn't been able to raise a smile since the Grand Final loss but how this 'bargain' has quickly changed all of that around for him.

I couldn't have said it better.

That's my beef -- not the trading away of Lake, but what we gave him away for.

[Bulldog Revolution]

I couldn't have said it better.

That's my beef -- not the trading away of Lake, but what we gave him away for.

Yep, far easier to digest if our 27 hadn't been involved

[AndrewP6]

I read somewhere that the Hawks have enquired about Lake for the past three seasons.

Clarkson said as much at the "unveiling" :mad:

[Hotdog60]

Clarkson said as much at the "unveiling" :mad:

It sounds almost like poaching

[The Cowshed]

Seems to me the club are also embarassed about the trade because they are continually hiding behind the 'but we're in a great position with 5 picks inside the top 50' line.

We should have called Hawthorn and Lake's bluff because we held all the cards and demanded picks 21 & 41. To gift them 27 was just insane.

[boydogs]

To a man they all seem to believe pick 21 and 41 would've cut the deal when it came down to it.

Name one 31 year old in AFL history who has fetched that price.

That's without free agency, without a degenerative hip complaint, without having contributed nothing the year before, without having a huge salary to offload and without the club being in a rebuilding phase.

[Sedat]

Name one 31 year old in AFL history who has fetched that price.

That's without free agency, without a degenerative hip complaint, without having contributed nothing the year before, without having a huge salary to offload and without the club being in a rebuilding phase.
Spida Everitt was older when Sydney picked him up and that was for a straight 2nd round pick (late 20's from memory). He was far closer to the end physically than Lake is.

[Bulldog4life]

Spida Everitt was older when Sydney picked him up and that was for a straight 2nd round pick (late 20's from memory). He was far closer to the end physically than Lake is.

What did Barry Hall cost us?

[Sedat]

What did Barry Hall cost us?
Pick 47 straight swap. And it was initially supposed to be pick 47 with a Swans downgraded pick in the low 50's thrown our way as well. Hall was out of contract too.

[AndrewP6]

What did Barry Hall cost us?

Pick 47

[jeemak]

Spida Everitt was older when Sydney picked him up and that was for a straight 2nd round pick (late 20's from memory). He was far closer to the end physically than Lake is.

Second last pick of the second round, pick 33.

[Mofra]

Name one 31 year old in AFL history who has fetched that price.

That's without free agency, without a degenerative hip complaint, without having contributed nothing the year before, without having a huge salary to offload and without the club being in a rebuilding phase.
All fair points - will be very interesting to see how Lake goes next year.

[boydogs]

Spida Everitt was older when Sydney picked him up and that was for a straight 2nd round pick (late 20's from memory). He was far closer to the end physically than Lake is.


Second last pick of the second round, pick 33.

Yep. 3 time All Australian & 2 time B&F, traded at age 32, spent two years with Sydney before retiring. Pretty similar to Lake, and traded for about the same value.


All fair points - will be very interesting to see how Lake goes next year.

Still got his signed training jersey, sad to see him go :(
I think it was a fair trade though.

[Doc26]

Name one 31 year old in AFL history who has fetched that price.

That's without free agency, without a degenerative hip complaint, without having contributed nothing the year before, without having a huge salary to offload and without the club being in a rebuilding phase.

So why then are Hawthorn so overjoyed to have finally landed their man being ~3 years in the making ? It's night and day if one compares the reaction from each Club's supporter bases.

I still rate Lake's currency and obviously so does Hawthorn. As for his durability, 2011 I'm putting down as one of those years that does happen, aside from this season he's held up extremely well and the value he can provide Hawthorn over the next 2 years is potentially very signifcant given their obvious deficiency down back.

As we well know, premierships don't come around easily and they are desperate coming off a loss they expected to win. They are right in their premiership window and realise they need to capitalise now before their Buddy and Cyril window closes and before the reign of GWS and GC start to kick in with their AFL contrived All Star squads.

As I indicated, I'm not against moving him on for the reasons you've indicated, I am however a little concerned that we didn't appropriately gauge Hawthorn's level of interest to get their man before the window closes on them.

How many All Australian full back's with Lake's credentials are available to be traded at the same time a premiership favourite still hurting and realising its primary obstacle in achieving its goal is to address its key defender deficiency to combat the 2013 threat of your Tippett's, Reid's, Kennedy's, Darling, Cox, Cloke etc in reaching its goal ?

Based on the potential / perceived reward vs risk for them I feel they got him for unders and would've gone higher when push came to shove.

[jeemak]

Doc26, rate your work.

I suppose Hawthorn have been parading him around and beating their chests because it is the perfect good news story for them to help get their supporters over the heartache of losing a grand final. They needed a good news story fast, and landing Lake provided that.

My perception of the deal was that Hawthorn didn't have a lot to pay with, and we securred the most realistic highest bid they could table, in lieu of them wanting to hit this draft period with a pick higher than 41.

IMO, the Hawks also had a very strong card to play, which was the Bulldogs no longer wanting Lake and Lake no longer wanting the Bulldogs.

I also don't think some people around here give the Hawks level of pragmatism enough thought. They know that securring Brian Lake is a crucial but yet small piece of the puzzle for making the top four next year. They have many areas in which they need to take another step forwards in considering Sydney's play for Tippett, and the fact the competition evolves and chews teams like the Hawks up for breakfast on a yearly basis. They aren't in a position to offer up quality players for higher draft picks in order to keep their list balanced.

[Doc26]

Doc26, rate your work.

I suppose Hawthorn have been parading him around and beating their chests because it is the perfect good news story for them to help get their supporters over the heartache of losing a grand final. They needed a good news story fast, and landing Lake provided that.

My perception of the deal was that Hawthorn didn't have a lot to pay with, and we securred the most realistic highest bid they could table, in lieu of them wanting to hit this draft period with a pick higher than 41.

IMO, the Hawks also had a very strong card to play, which was the Bulldogs no longer wanting Lake and Lake no longer wanting the Bulldogs.

I also don't think some people around here give the Hawks level of pragmatism enough thought. They know that securring Brian Lake is a crucial but yet small piece of the puzzle for making the top four next year. They have many areas in which they need to take another step forwards in considering Sydney's play for Tippett, and the fact the competition evolves and chews teams like the Hawks up for breakfast on a yearly basis. They aren't in a position to offer up quality players for higher draft picks in order to keep their list balanced.

All this is what the left side of my brain is trying very hard to tell my right side. I think it's just made worse because I have this deep down thing against Hawthorn and a fear that we've given them a free leg up.

As for pragmatism, this as a Bulldog lifer is a bitter pill.

[jeemak]

All this is what the left side of my brain is trying very hard to tell my right side. I think it's just made worse because I have this deep down thing against Hawthorn and a fear that we've given them a free leg up.

I've been fighting off Hawthorn loathing over the last two days. I grew up in the South Eastern suburbs in Wheelers Hill, only a few minutes walk to Waverley, the place where I'd sneak in to on school holidays to play gang tiggy, and watch some great football that is now the centre for Hawthorn wankerdom!

Hawks fans have replaced any other club I can name to become the most self-entitled whinging creatures known to AFL. They can't separate the fact that Buddy is a good footballer, from themselves being arrogant twats in many cases.

While I was sad to see my Hawthorn friends suffer on GF day, I was happy that Sydney won. Losing Lake hurt me, and seeing him in a Hawthorn jumber hurts me a lot as well.

[Doc26]

I've been fighting off Hawthorn loathing over the last two days. I grew up in the South Eastern suburbs in Wheelers Hill, only a few minutes walk to Waverley, the place where I'd sneak in to on school holidays to play gang tiggy, and watch some great football that is now the centre for Hawthorn wankerdom!

Hawks fans have replaced any other club I can name to become the most self-entitled whinging creatures known to AFL. They can't separate the fact that Buddy is a good footballer, from themselves being arrogant twats in many cases.

While I was sad to see my Hawthorn friends suffer on GF day, I was happy that Sydney won. Losing Lake hurt me, and seeing him in a Hawthorn jumber hurts me a lot as well.

I hear you. Living out east my whole life, which would as it seem be the epicentre for their breeding colony, I was made to feel like some downtrodden little poor kid forced to live vicariously through all their 'unworthy' premiership glory. I was brought up pretty well not to think poorly of anyone but actualy I do detest that bunch.

[jeemak]

All this is what the left side of my brain is trying very hard to tell my right side. I think it's just made worse because I have this deep down thing against Hawthorn and a fear that we've given them a free leg up.

As for pragmatism, this as a Bulldog lifer is a bitter pill.


I hear you. Living out east my whole life, which would as it seem be the epicentre for their breeding colony, I was made to feel like some downtrodden little poor kid forced to live vicariously through all their 'unworthy' premiership glory. I was brought up pretty well not to think poorly of anyone but actualy I do detest that bunch.

Brilliant point, in bold. It really is a fact of our chosen football perversion that pragmatism must be at its forefront!

You were brought up well, it seems, if that was the basis of your upbringing living amongst those folk.

[Dry Rot]

So why then are Hawthorn so overjoyed to have finally landed their man being ~3 years in the making ? It's night and day if one compares the reaction from each Club's supporter bases.

I still rate Lake's currency and obviously so does Hawthorn. As for his durability, 2011 I'm putting down as one of those years that does happen, aside from this season he's held up extremely well and the value he can provide Hawthorn over the next 2 years is potentially very signifcant given their obvious deficiency down back.

As we well know, premierships don't come around easily and they are desperate coming off a loss they expected to win. They are right in their premiership window and realise they need to capitalise now before their Buddy and Cyril window closes and before the reign of GWS and GC start to kick in with their AFL contrived All Star squads.

As I indicated, I'm not against moving him on for the reasons you've indicated, I am however a little concerned that we didn't appropriately gauge Hawthorn's level of interest to get their man before the window closes on them.

How many All Australian full back's with Lake's credentials are available to be traded at the same time a premiership favourite still hurting and realising its primary obstacle in achieving its goal is to address its key defender deficiency to combat the 2013 threat of your Tippett's, Reid's, Kennedy's, Darling, Cox, Cloke etc in reaching its goal ?

Based on the potential / perceived reward vs risk for them I feel they got him for unders and would've gone higher when push came to shove.

Agreed. I'm afraid to say Sheedy was right, we are a joke of a club. The more I think about it, the more amateurish our efforts were with this.

But it's done now. But the same clowns are handling the potential Dawes trade.

[jeemak]

Agreed. I'm afraid to say Sheedy was right, we are a joke of a club. The more I think about it, the more amateurish our efforts were with this.

But it's done now. But the same clowns are handling the potential Dawes trade.

DR, I know it seems I might be targeting your posts (which to a point, I am I suppose), but do you really think all things considered that we're a joke of a club?

I could handle it if you were going on the basis of something other than the ramblings of that scorned overreactor, but to agree with that assessment, particularly in the context in which it was made is a bit much for me.

[Dry Rot]

DR, I know it seems I might be targeting your posts (which to a point, I am I suppose), but do you really think all things considered that we're a joke of a club?

I could handle it if you were going on the basis of something other than the ramblings of that scorned overreactor, but to agree with that assessment, particularly in the context in which it was made is a bit much for me.

We rolled over on day 1 of the trade period on a deal that meant so much more for the Hawks than us in the next couple of years.

We seemed to be sweating on a player agent's ultimatum, when we were in the box seat where it wouldn't make much difference if Lake walked next year, if he was able. Yes, maybe he would be spent, or maybe not.

After thinking about this, this was a a really poor negotiation and and we are a joke. I'm not against trading Lake per se, but rather how we did it.

[Dry Rot]

DR, I know it seems I might be targeting your posts (which to a point, I am I suppose),

Why?

And if you are, do you agree we should delist Conney?

[jeemak]

Doc26, rate your work.

I suppose Hawthorn have been parading him around and beating their chests because it is the perfect good news story for them to help get their supporters over the heartache of losing a grand final. They needed a good news story fast, and landing Lake provided that.

My perception of the deal was that Hawthorn didn't have a lot to pay with, and we securred the most realistic highest bid they could table, in lieu of them wanting to hit this draft period with a pick higher than 41.

IMO, the Hawks also had a very strong card to play, which was the Bulldogs no longer wanting Lake and Lake no longer wanting the Bulldogs.

I also don't think some people around here give the Hawks level of pragmatism enough thought. They know that securring Brian Lake is a crucial but yet small piece of the puzzle for making the top four next year. They have many areas in which they need to take another step forwards in considering Sydney's play for Tippett, and the fact the competition evolves and chews teams like the Hawks up for breakfast on a yearly basis. They aren't in a position to offer up quality players for higher draft picks in order to keep their list balanced.


Fair enough.

I suppose the compensation we settled for might point to what Hawthorn were realistically able to source and willing to pay, but also to our contentment to see the back of Lake and his extremely large contract (and maybe his attitude).

It's OK for us to hold firm and demand higher compensation, but what would be the point in Hawthorn trading out a player or players capable of securring a first round pick to land Lake and unsettling their list? They're already under pressure to retain Young, Murphy and Gillham.


Perhaps we have differing views on Hawthorn's summation of Lake's potential impact, rather than the urgency of Hawthorn's situation.

I truly believe that leaving them with pick 41 as their first live pick would be completely unnacceptable to them, meaning they would have to trade a depth player as a minimum to gain a pick in the top 30, to potentially snare a player they had in mind. Losing any such player might not be supplemented by the recruitment of Lake.

While the Hawks have undeniable star power in certain areas of the ground, they rely on a system that sees medium tier players (and in some cases depth players) as being extremely valuable to their success.


We rolled over on day 1 of the trade period on a deal that meant so much more for the Hawks than us in the next couple of years.

We seemed to be sweating on a player agent's ultimatum, when we were in the box seat where it wouldn't make much difference if Lake walked next year, if he was able. Yes, maybe he would be spent, or maybe not.

After thinking about this, this was a a really poor negotiation and and we are a joke. I'm not against trading Lake per se, but rather how we did it.


Why?

And if you are, do you agree we should delist Conney?

I was only isolating your most recent posts.

There's a couple of Lake threads going around, but from this one the above (excuse the order of quoting, and my tendency to use the word suppose) pretty much sums up my thoughts on the trade. While I won't say I'm entirely happy with the outcome, I guess my views are borne from the perspective we got the only currency that we could use from Hawthorn in the initial deal. Anything else would have seen Hawthorn offering us pesos, when all we can actually spend or use is dollars.

As far as delisting Cooney we'll have to wait and see when his contract is up, and whether we can get anything for him. Adam Cooney is the only player on our list that is a completely rare talent. If able to play unincumbered by injury, he would easily be a top five player in the competition. He is that good.

Sure his knee is degenerative, and it's likely we're going to have to either play him in an extremely limited role after this year, or not at all. But because of his age and contract status, and his innability due to injury to be seen as attractive trade in at another club we're going to have to do all we can to get the most out of him while we can. We're in a reasonable place to do so right now, while he is contracted, but if he doesn't produce in either a modified role, from and attitude and role perspective this year then I'm afraid we'll have to let him go.

It's a big catch 22 for the club. He plays well we keep him, and forego any trade overtures for now. If he keeps playing well as he ages, we have another hard decision to make.

[Ghost Dog]

Ryan Griffen is a pretty rare talent.

[Hotdog60]

Ryan Griffen is a pretty rare talent.

Ryan is a special player which over the last few years has become more consistent in his performances. I think we need the likes of Cooney or if someone can step up to his level to take some of the attention off Ryan.

Cooney may still have the talent to take the number one tagger if he can stay on the park in the midfield.

[LostDoggy]

Disagree that we mucked up this trade.

Lake wanted out.

Lake did not appear to have the Swan's ethic of play your role even if it means sacrificing your natural game.

We, quite rightly IMHO, wish to develop a back line using younger talent. Bring them through together for years to come so they learn each other's roles and strengths inside out.

Oppositions have worked out Lake. They play a quick leading player on him and take him up the ground or run off him when he won't go. Too often he seemed content to guard space instead of manning up. Result - easy opposition goals. In a good side he could get away with this as players cover for him, but in our side, it just seemed to scream out lack of leadership.

As great a player as he was, I think we made the right call by not gambling on his future with us.

Could we have got a better deal? In hindsight, yes. But the risk was we would have ended up without a deal and retained a player who wanted out. Sometimes you have to take the safer route and get what you can. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[WB4Life]

Ryan is a special player which over the last few years has become more consistent in his performances. I think we need the likes of Cooney or if someone can step up to his level to take some of the attention off Ryan.

Cooney may still have the talent to take the number one tagger if he can stay on the park in the midfield.

I hate to say it, cause i really like the guy and its unfortunate that his body has betrayed him, but if the right trade came along, we should move cooney on.

especially if it included draft picks this or next season.

should note i was also for the lake trade (although not giving up our pick, i think he was worth the 2 on his own) and i'm against picking up dawes...

its going to be hard for the next 4 years, but if we stick to our guns and do things right it could be so worth it.

[Maddog37]

Can anyone refresh my memory regarding Brian and his injuries. I thought he had a degenerative hip problem and a dodgy knee?

[bornadog]

Can anyone refresh my memory regarding Brian and his injuries. I thought he had a degenerative hip problem and a dodgy knee?

I think that is his biggest issue going forward, ie his body and whether it can stand up to the rigors of AFL. It gets harder as you get older.

Not sure if anyone else noticed, but at the start of this season, he seemed to have lost alot of weight, but as the season went on, he seemed to put on weight? Does this mean he was either injured, or lazy to put in the hard yards to stay in top condition.

[Bulldog4life]

I think that is his biggest issue going forward, ie his body and whether it can stand up to the rigors of AFL. It gets harder as you get older.

Not sure if anyone else noticed, but at the start of this season, he seemed to have lost alot of weight, but as the season went on, he seemed to put on weight? Does this mean he was either injured, or lazy to put in the hard yards to stay in top condition.

His form dropped off at the end of the season too. Whether it was a disinterest on his behalf or his body who knows. Maybe a combination of both.

[KT31]

His form dropped off at the end of the season too. Whether it was a disinterest on his behalf or his body who knows. Maybe a combination of both.

Hopefully it is a few old bumps niggling him with old age and we may have the last laugh yet.

[WB4Life]

Hopefully it is a few old bumbs niggling him with old age and we may have the last laugh yet.

i'd hate to think you actually mean this...

[Mofra]

Not sure if anyone else noticed, but at the start of this season, he seemed to have lost alot of weight, but as the season went on, he seemed to put on weight? Does this mean he was either injured, or lazy to put in the hard yards to stay in top condition.
Strange, as players tend to lose weight during the year as weights sessions are replaced by rehab.

He didn't seem to be in great shape in the Hawks picks but then again Brown isn't flattering.

[Mantis]

Not sure if anyone else noticed, but at the start of this season, he seemed to have lost alot of weight, but as the season went on, he seemed to put on weight? Does this mean he was either injured, or lazy to put in the hard yards to stay in top condition.

From what I hear a lot of the training in the 2ndr half of the year was more geared around recovery rather than continued conditioning work which may account for this observation.


Strange, as players tend to lose weight during the year as weights sessions are replaced by rehab.



But not if the work in the pre-season had been designed to strip off the extra bulk that Brian had gathered in his almost 18 months out of the game.

[Grantysghost]

His form dropped off at the end of the season too. Whether it was a disinterest on his behalf or his body who knows. Maybe a combination of both.

He was injured in the latter half of the season. Whether it was hip or groin he was definitely hampered by something and was taking pain medication during games. I was watching him closely as he didn't look right and the runner brought out some pain killers for him.

[boydogs]

So why then are Hawthorn so overjoyed to have finally landed their man being ~3 years in the making ? It's night and day if one compares the reaction from each Club's supporter bases.

Do you remember the Wayne Schwass / Shannon Grant trade?

North supporters were against that one too.

[Grantysghost]

The truth behind the trade - he just wants a bloody discount at the Caroline Springs pub (part owned by Hawks)
@brianlake36 : Lunch at the westwaters. Bugger haven't got my hawthorn membership card to get my discount. @Adam0017 @HayleaCooney @LakeShannon

[LongWait]

The truth behind the trade - he just wants a bloody discount at the Caroline Springs pub (part owned by Hawks)
@brianlake36 : Lunch at the westwaters. Bugger haven't got my hawthorn membership card to get my discount. @Adam0017 @HayleaCooney @LakeShannon

Cooney tweeted earlier today asking if anyone knows a landscaper in the Caroline Springs area. Don't know what that's about.

[bornadog]

The truth behind the trade - he just wants a bloody discount at the Caroline Springs pub (part owned by Hawks)
@brianlake36 : Lunch at the westwaters. Bugger haven't got my hawthorn membership card to get my discount. @Adam0017 @HayleaCooney @LakeShannon

Caroline Springs to Waverley Park, is a bloody long way

[Grantysghost]

Cooney tweeted earlier today asking if anyone knows a landscaper in the Caroline Springs area. Don't know what that's about.

He has built there, maybe to be close to Brian who will probably move now.

[Grantysghost]

Caroline Springs to Waverley Park, is a bloody long way

Indeed i do it every day for work!.... Maybe Brian and I could car pool? If he can put up with sons of the west blaring on the radio.

[Mitcha]

Why?

And if you are, do you agree we should delist Conney?
Just interested to know who you think would be interested in trading for Cooney and what they would offer.

[ledge]

I am backing that our picks we got for BRian play more games than him and that means we win.

[Remi Moses]

The truth behind the trade - he just wants a bloody discount at the Caroline Springs pub (part owned by Hawks)
@brianlake36 : Lunch at the westwaters. Bugger haven't got my hawthorn membership card to get my discount. @Adam0017 @HayleaCooney @LakeShannon

Hence the awful side of social media.
Can I say, "Who cares Brian".

[w3design]

Just interested to know who you think would be interested in trading for Cooney and what they would offer.

Not much, Cooney's knees are shot unfortunately for us.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We would get literally nothing for Cooney.

[Dry Rot]

Just interested to know who you think would be interested in trading for Cooney and what they would offer.


We would get literally nothing for Cooney.

Agreed. I said pay him out and delist him, not trade him.

I would like his spot to be available in 2013 to a player could possibly play 22 games for us or Willi.

[jeemak]

Not much, Cooney's knees are shot unfortunately for us.

Yeah poor us. Luckily Adam will gain a lucrative contract to start working on the Hadron Collider post playing football with us, so he'll be sweet (not a dig at his intellect, just proving a point).

[LostDoggy]

Agreed. I said pay him out and delist him, not trade him.

I would like his spot to be available in 2013 to a player could possibly play 22 games for us or Willi.

Yes, rather than explore every opportunity to get Cooney right, we should unload him so that the thousands on the mound at Willi can watch the breath-taking performances of another Skinner, Redpath or Veszpremi.

Even if he has a year like 2012, he will still contribute more than someone playing 22 games at Willi. And you know what, they just might get him up for 18 games in which he will do more than most other players in the team.

You don't get rid of champions until you have reached the absolute end of the line and nobody is suggesting we are there yet, other than you and a small minority who obviously know more than everybody at the Club.

[Ghost Dog]

Agreed. I said pay him out and delist him, not trade him.

I would like his spot to be available in 2013 to a player could possibly play 22 games for us or Willi.

Think you are a bit hard on Cooney. He's starting to come good and had a few flashes of what could be 2013 this year.

[soupman]

Agreed. I said pay him out and delist him, not trade him.

I would like his spot to be available in 2013 to a player could possibly play 22 games for us or Willi.

Why are we discussing getting rid of Cooney?

Just in comparism to Lake he is at least as valuable to us, and yet many are livid with the fact that we got rid of Lake and the compensation received, and yet Cooney, who is younger, plays a position we don't have heaps of young guys coming through in, actually looks half interested, has had just as good form as Lake this year, and whilst injury prone is no more so than Lake, is somebody we should just pay out and delist? How's that for loyalty?

[1eyedog]

Praying for the start of 2013 so we can get past some of these outlandish discussions, at least for another year.

[F'scary]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dry Rot
If we piss their pick 21 on Dawes, the club house will be burned down

Quote:
Originally Posted by always right
I'll provide the matches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dry Rot
I'll meet you with the petrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by F'scary
I can assist by preventing people from escaping

Looks like the club house can be let to stand.