Brian Lake to Hawthorn

[LostDoggy]

For first round pick according to Trade radio

[The Underdog]

Um...wow.

[LongWait]

Mart Pask is saying it was a way for the Bulldogs to control the compensation they'd get - Lake was going to leave as a free agent in a year anyway.

A later pick swap also involved.

[LostDoggy]

Reported by a second source. Holy shit didn't pick it.
Definitely not going to help next year, but it's worth it if it doesn't get anyone fired, wasn't going to be around for our next challenge

[chef]

Bugger

[SlimPickens]

If Brian indicated he was on the move at the end of next year, I don't have a problem with this trade.

[chef]

If Brian indicated he was on the move at the end of next year, I don't have a problem with this trade.

Same here.

[Greystache]

If Brian indicated he was on the move at the end of next year, I don't have a problem with this trade.

Agree.

[LostDog]

1st and 2nd Rd picks

[SlimPickens]

1st and 2nd Rd picks

Where did you hear that?

[LongWait]

Lake and 27 to Hawks; 21 and 41 to Bulldogs.

[bornadog]

If Brian indicated he was on the move at the end of next year, I don't have a problem with this trade.

Thats bad management, why would he leave if he was happy at the club. Now he is stuck on 197 with us.

[always right]

Gutsy call by the club....and the coach. You have to admire McCartney for focusing on the long term when it's possible that he could be gone in one or two years if membership declines due to the lack of wins and the board doesn't hold its nerve.

[Mantis]

Strong move.

I hope we know what we're doing.

[always right]

Thats bad management, why would he leave if he was happy at the club. Now he is stuck on 197 with us.

and......

[LostDoggy]

Well who the f**k is going to play on the gorillas next year? Talia? Roberts? Austin? Marko?

Not liking this at all in terms of next season. We will be getting smashed by teams even more than this year.

[Mofra]

Well who the f**k is going to play on the gorillas next year? Talia? Roberts? Austin? Marko?

Not liking this at all in terms of next season. We will be getting smashed by teams even more than this year.
Roughie, if this year is any indication.

Suddenly hoping alot harder that Plowman falls to pick 5...

[LostDoggy]

When I heard this rumour a couple of weeks ago, I dismissed it! Now it seems it is true! Not sure how I feel about this, in shock I think! :confused:

[LostDoggy]

Must be targeting a young backman from somewhere else surely??

[SlimPickens]

Thats bad management, why would he leave if he was happy at the club. Now he is stuck on 197 with us.

To play in finals?

With Brian's body he would have 2-3 yrs max, we have got a first round pick for a 31 year old who wants to play finals. As I said if he suggested he wanted too leave later I don't have a problem with this trade.

[LostDoggy]

Roughie, if this year is any indication.

Suddenly hoping alot harder that Plowman falls to pick 5...

I'm in shock to be quite honest. This will alienate a lot of members/supporters who are already turning their backs on the club.

[Mofra]

With Brian's body he would have 2-3 yrs max, we have got a first round pick for a 31 year old who wants to play finals. As I said if he suggested he wanted too leave later I don't have a problem with this trade.
It's pick 21 & pick 41 for Lake & pick 27.

A late second rounder and a small upgrade for Lake. Not convinced this is equal.

[Mofra]

I'm in shock to be quite honest. This will alienate a lot of members/supporters who are already turning their backs on the club.
That is a worry - we really need to be on the front foot explaining this one to members.

[soupman]

In a room somewhere Greg Denham is staring at a computer screen in disbelief. Slowly he comes to his senses, and it sinks in. He got one, for once in his life he actually got one.

[LostDoggy]

Seems like we've been bent over here if you ask me. Sure Lake is getting on in age but he's a frigging AA fullback.

[The Underdog]

It's pick 21 & pick 41 for Lake & pick 27.

A late second rounder and a small upgrade for Lake. Not convinced this is equal.

Agree, not sure I'm happy with the compensation.
Not one of the best days ever for Dogs fans.

[Sedat]

With Brian's body he would have 2-3 yrs max, we have got a first round pick for a 31 year old who wants to play finals. As I said if he suggested he wanted too leave later I don't have a problem with this trade.
Two things - Brian's body is more durable than both Tom Williams and Dale Morris. Also this isn't for a 1st round pick - it is for a 6 pick upgrade from 27 to 21 - big difference.

He is under contract and Hawthorn can't wait another year for the KPD stocks while they are in premiership window time. We had leverage right here and now and IMO we've given away Lake for far less than we should have.

[Grantysghost]

It's pick 21 & pick 41 for Lake & pick 27.

A late second rounder and a small upgrade for Lake. Not convinced this is equal.

Thats hard to swallow. Really not a great deal. Upside for Hawthorn is massive - for us I'm not so sure.
There must be more to this, on face value it makes no sense. Everyone i've spoken to (all are members) are extremely shocked and at the moment slightly p!55ed off!

[LostDoggy]

That is a worry - we really need to be on the front foot explaining this one to members.

They will need to do more than get on the front foot. Pick 21 was reasonable up to a point but to drop 14 picks to 41 is absolute rubbish.

The best full back in the history of the club doesn't warrant a first level draft pick on its own?????

Amateur hour.

[LostDoggy]

Unless we receive a very good explanation for this, I'm going to be absolutely f*****g livid at the club. Get talking bulldogs and don't give us spin

[bornadog]

Lake traded to Hawks (http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/westernbulldogsnewsfeatures/newsarticle/tabid/4112/newsid/149382/default.aspx)

The Western Bulldogs today announced that the Club has traded Brian Lake to Hawthorn in exchange for the Hawks first two selections (currently 21 and 41) in the 2012 AFL National Draft.

Importantly this includes a first round draft pick which will leave the club with three first round drafts picks in the upcoming National Draft.

To ensure the Western Bulldogs secured its third first National Draft pick - it has exchanged a second round selection (27) as part of the trade.

Following the trade, the Western Bulldogs now hold six picks inside 50.

List Manager Jason McCartney said the trade placed the Club in an unprecedented position as they entered the National Draft in November.

“The accumulation of six picks inside 50 presents the opportunity the likes of which this Club has not seen before to recruit the core list around which we will build the future of this football club,” McCartney said today.

“In an increasingly competitive environment our future success going forward is contingent on what we do today and given the stage Brian’s career is at - we see this as a very good proposition for the Club.

“We thank Brian for his contribution to the football club.

“In what is an exciting time for the Club we are looking forward to continuing to develop the team under Brendan McCartney,” McCartney said.

[The Underdog]

Two things - Brian's body is more durable than both Tom Williams and Dale Morris. Also this isn't for a 1st round pick - it is for a 6 pick upgrade from 27 to 21 - big difference.

He is under contract and Hawthorn can't wait another year for the KPD stocks while they are in premiership window time. We had leverage right here and now and IMO we've given away Lake for far less than we should have.

It's a 6 pick upgrade and an end of 2nd round pick.

[bornadog]

To play in finals?

With Brian's body he would have 2-3 yrs max, we have got a first round pick for a 31 year old who wants to play finals. As I said if he suggested he wanted too leave later I don't have a problem with this trade.

Sorry, I can't have that. You just don't get rid of players like that. We have a history of doing this. The fans have had enough of this crap.

[always right]

Not arguing whether the trade is equal or not....from my point of view we appear to be slightly on the negative side of the ledger......but posters often complain about how we tend to hold onto players that one year too long. Here's a case where the club has taken a punt on some short term pain (debatable) for potential long term gain.

Lake has been a great player for us...perhaps our best ever full back. There were however clear signs this season that he was well and truly in the final phase of his career. His pace had dropped off, his overhead marking didn't seem as assured, and opposition coaches seemed to have worked out how to exploit his deficiencies....just tell Lake's opponent to lead:rolleyes:

So offloading him now gives us the opportunity to grab another young draftee with an eye to the future. The worst thing that could happen is Lake feels re-energised and plays in a premiership with the Hawks. Good luck to him....it's not as if we are a finals chance next year anyway so what is there to lose?

[Grantysghost]

Lake traded to Hawks (http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/westernbulldogsnewsfeatures/newsarticle/tabid/4112/newsid/149382/default.aspx)

The Western Bulldogs today announced that the Club has traded Brian Lake to Hawthorn in exchange for the Hawks first two selections (currently 21 and 41) in the 2012 AFL National Draft.

.

This first paragraph is complete spin. No mention of the trade down (27 -> 21) until further along.

[chef]

Sorry, I can't have that. You just don't get rid of players like that. We have a history of doing this. The fans have had enough of this crap.

Didn't he want to leave to play finals?

Or is there more to it?

[KT31]

As if this morning was not bad enough, now they have done this to us.
Turning off, need some time to work out how we have been screwed again.
#$%^

[Bulldog Revolution]

Bold and Interesting move

Thanks Bryza for some of the best footy years of my life, and some of the best full back play I've ever seen

You will always be welcome back

[Greystache]

Sorry, I can't have that. You just don't get rid of players like that. We have a history of doing this. The fans have had enough of this crap.

And when he wants to leave next year for nothing should we celebrate that we got one more year out of him than he wanted?

[jeemak]

Not arguing whether the trade is equal or not....from my point of view we appear to be slightly on the negative side of the ledger......but posters often complain about how we tend to hold onto players that one year too long. Here's a case where the club has taken a punt on some short term pain (debatable) for potential long term gain.

Lake has been a great player for us...perhaps our best ever full back. There were however clear signs this season that he was well and truly in the final phase of his career. His pace had dropped off, his overhead marking didn't seem as assured, and opposition coaches seemed to have worked out how to exploit his deficiencies....just tell Lake's opponent to lead:rolleyes:

So offloading him now gives us the opportunity to grab another young draftee with an eye to the future. The worst thing that could happen is Lake feels re-energised and plays in a premiership with the Hawks. Good luck to him....it's not as if we are a finals chance next year anyway so what is there to lose?

I tend to agree with this line of thinking.

As far as compensation for Lake was concerned I wasn't really convinced he was worth a stand alone first round draft pick, due to his age and the likelihood his body could slow him down. I wonder if we were on the other end of the deal, in contention for a flag would our supporter base be happy in sending off our first draft pick for a 31 year old previously elite full back?

I wouldn't have thought so, personally.

The negative types will look at this trade and state the coach had it in for him and wanted him gone, but the same coach that is to blame for Minson not making the top ten in the vote count this year found a spot for Brian Lake in there.

Perhaps it's just a case of the club and the player doing what is best for themselves, nothing more, nothing less. It's not sexy and doesn't satisfy the needs of some around here, but maybe that's all it was.

Thanks for your services Brian.

[LongWait]

One way to look at the trade is:

Pick 21 and a downgrade of our second round pick to Dogs in exchange for Lake.

Pask has made it clear that we were going to lose Lake in a year - why would we keep Lake for a year when he doesn't want to stay, paying Lake a massive salary, only to recieve almost no compensation.

This way we get another first round pick. You want all players to be fully invested - not just taking the money until they move on to greener pastures.

[always right]

I'm desparately hoping we aren't paying any of Brian's salary as part of the deal. That would send this board further into meltdown (with good reason).

[ReLoad]

If Brian wanted to leave, then there is stuff all the club could have done about it, his massive back ended contract has also gone. (and as we don't have his detailed medical conditioning report, so is his stuffed body perhaps?)

I do not blame the club for losing him, but im not happy with the club for not getting much for him.

It will make zero difference to our wins/losses next year as we were going to fall further behind anyway, so those promising more doom, I don't really subscribe to that.

On the positive side , at least we don't have to put up with his brain fades anymore.
Schoenclangers will be the happiest hawthorn player ever.

Hawthorn to win the flag by a country mile, the missing link has now been fulfilled.

[jeemak]

One way to look at the trade is:

Pick 21 and a downgrade of our second round pick to Dogs in exchange for Lake.
Pask has made it clear that we were going to lose Lake in a year - why would we keep Lake for a year when he doesn't want to stay, paying Lake a massive salary, only to recieve almost no compensation.

This way we get another first round pick. You want all players to be fully invested - not just taking the money until they move on to greener pastures.

That's a fair enough point.

If the recruiting team believes specific and desired talent isn't likely to be available at pick 27, getting our hands on pick 21 could prove invaluable.

[BulldogBelle]

Frees up a fair chunk of the salary cap this year and next

What was Brian on?

[jeemak]

If Brian wanted to leave, then there is stuff all the club could have done about it, his massive back ended contract has also gone. (and as we don't have his detailed medical conditioning report, so is his stuffed body perhaps?)

I do not blame the club for losing him, but im not happy with the club for not getting much for him.

It will make zero difference to our wins/losses next year as we were going to fall further behind anyway, so those promising more doom, I don't really subscribe to that.

On the positive side , at least we don't have to put up with his brain fades anymore.
Schoenclangers will be the happiest hawthorn player ever.

Hawthorn to win the flag by a country mile, the missing link has now been fulfilled.

Is Brian going to stop them from missing easy goals, and using the ball poorly once it passes their half forward line?

[always right]

Frees up a fair chunk of the salary cap this year and next

What was Brian on?

Would have to be $500kplus. Mind you...can't think who on our list we will spend the extra money on.

[LostDoggy]

From a football point of view i completely understand this trade, with FA coming there, fans will have to accept loyalty is dead, which goes both ways (see Ward).
However with a bad start to next year, i think we could struggle to crack 25,000 members. The type of fans who expected us to make finals last year and wanted BMac fired 10 weeks in probably won't renew (if any of them were) after today

[Sedat]

Would have to be $500kplus. Mind you...can't think who on our list we will spend the extra money on.
That thought crossed my mind as well. shame we don't have Ward on the list any more - we could almost match GWS' offer now :o

[Ozza]

Frees up a fair chunk of the salary cap this year and next

What was Brian on?

Plenty. He made sure of that when we had to beg at his last contract negotiation. Would be dependant on whether it was front or back loaded - or whether its streamlined. Considering we had better players then - I would guess he was on a fair bit at the end of the deal - so maybe 500-550K.

[Mofra]

Would have to be $500kplus. Mind you...can't think who on our list we will spend the extra money on.
Front load an O'Rourke/Plowman/Stringer?
Re-write Griff's contract to further front load it so we can extend highyl rated youngsters (picks 5 & 6) in 2014?

Hard to find 95% of the cap to spend the way things stand.

[LongWait]

Listening to Marty Pask on TWR - they have clearly given an ultimatum to the club: trade Lake to the club of his choice now, or lose him at the end of next season and good luck with whatever compensation you hope you get.

[always right]

That thought crossed my mind as well. shame we don't have Ward on the list any more - we could almost match GWS' offer now :o

Perhaps we could chase Scully...he'd add to our depth.

[bornadog]

Pask has made it clear that we were going to lose Lake in a year.

Thats just his opinion, good clubs keep their Champions through managing them and their contracts.

[always right]

On the surface....hasn't been a great day for the club. Some don't need much convincing not to renew their membership. Today's events could be the straw.

[LostDoggy]

Thats just his opinion, good clubs keep their Champions through managing them and their contracts.

Like West Coast with Judd and Geelong with Garry Ablett you mean. I know its painful that a club champion is going but its a commercial world, we could have done a bit a better by maybe seeking to get our 27 downgraded further for a fringish player and then trading it to the Hawks, but other than that the deal is about right. Brian is a punt and his body may fail or he may be the next D Fletcher who knows.

[always right]

Thats just his opinion, good clubs keep their Champions through managing them and their contracts.

Goddard being a good case in point...oh wait.

[LongWait]

On the surface....hasn't been a great day for the club. Some don't need much convincing not to renew their membership. Today's events could be the straw.

Perhaps we should wait to see who we draft with our three first round draft picks.

[WB4Life]

One way to look at the trade is:

Pick 21 and a downgrade of our second round pick to Dogs in exchange for Lake.

Pask has made it clear that we were going to lose Lake in a year - why would we keep Lake for a year when he doesn't want to stay, paying Lake a massive salary, only to recieve almost no compensation.

This way we get another first round pick. You want all players to be fully invested - not just taking the money until they move on to greener pastures.

Agreed, i thought pick 27 was a bit much. But the clubs intention is headed in the right direction.

[always right]

Perhaps we should wait to see who we draft with our three first round draft picks.

For some it won't matter unfortunately.

[Danny the snakeman]

His manager is about to come on SEN.

[bornadog]

His manager is about to come on SEN.

To spin another story

[LongWait]

For some it won't matter unfortunately.

Sadly you are very right. It's a tough commercial world and free agency has made it even tougher.

[WB4Life]

From a football point of view i completely understand this trade, with FA coming there, fans will have to accept loyalty is dead, which goes both ways (see Ward).
However with a bad start to next year, i think we could struggle to crack 25,000 members. The type of fans who expected us to make finals last year and wanted BMac fired 10 weeks in probably won't renew (if any of them were) after today

Finacially we need all the help we can get, but in my opinion if they don't renew there not supporters anyway. we'll see them in 4-7 when we've turned things around...

[Ozza]

Thats just his opinion, good clubs keep their Champions through managing them and their contracts.

He may have been a champion player (for a few years), and yeah - you'd love to keep him in a perfect world - but he wanted to go. He showed scant regard for the club last time he was negotiationg a contract, and showed the club similar regard this time around by saying he would leave next year anyway.

[immortalmike]

Goddard being a good case in point...oh wait.

In what alternate universe is St Kilda a good club?:confused:

Bent over in the trade. Not happy with Brian leaving but there's not much we as supporters can do but thank him for his service, wish him luck and hope he retires at the end of next year after winning a premiership, and we pick up two 10+ year champions with the picks, making everyone feel better.

[Dry Rot]

If we piss their pick 21 on Dawes, the club house will be burned down

[bornadog]

He may have been a champion player (for a few years), and yeah - you'd love to keep him in a perfect world - but he wanted to go. He showed scant regard for the club last time he was negotiationg a contract, and showed the club similar regard this time around by saying he would leave next year anyway.

Sorry mate, can't agree with this? When did he say he would leave next year? Thats just bullshit from Marty Pask who has spun a story to get Brian to move and he can get more commission.

Our coach has told a two time AA fullback that he won't be playing fullback any more, so what the hell is Brian to do?

[Dry Rot]

Listening to Marty Pask on TWR - they have clearly given an ultimatum to the club: trade Lake to the club of his choice now, or lose him at the end of next season and good luck with whatever compensation you hope you get.

Lake was well paid, but determined to leave. I wonder why?

Shame we couldn't send him to Carlton.

[always right]

If we piss their pick 21 on Dawes, the club house will be burned down

I'll provide the matches.

[bornadog]

If we piss their pick 21 on Dawes, the club house will be burned down

I bet you anything, right now that is what we will do.

[Sedat]

Sadly you are very right. It's a tough commercial world and free agency has made it even tougher.
I'm presuming you are able to distinguish the actual trading of Lake (not an unfathomable option considering his age profile) with the compensation received, not to mention the haste with which the trade was agreed to by the club?

Negotiating is an artform and a skill that Scott Clayton was exceptional at - we have missed this skill so badly in recent years, and the haste of this Lake trade only reinforces that. He is under contract and we blinked at the first offer, 1 day into a 21 day trade period.

[chef]

Sorry mate, can't agree with this? When did he say he would leave next year? Thats just bullshit from Marty Pask who has spun a story to get Brian to move and he can get more commission.

Our coach has told a two time AA fullback that he won't be playing fullback any more, so what the hell is Brian to do?

Aren't we in development mode?

How are we meant to find our next FB if thats the only position Brian wants to play.

[LostDoggy]

If we piss their pick 21 on Dawes, the club house will be burned down

JMac said no more trading we are done....phew. (I assume unless something great comes up ie not Dawes)

[EasternWest]

I'm in two minds over this.

Personally, I'm a bit gutted to see Brian leave.

But it's a damn bold move by the club. Time will tell if its the right move.

It's a coup for Hawthorn, their window is open, and he's got a couple of years in him.

[Dry Rot]

I'll provide the matches.
I'll meet you with the petrol.

[Greystache]

Negotiating is an artform and a skill that Scott Clayton was exceptional at - we have missed this skill so badly in recent years, and the haste of this Lake trade only reinforces that. He is under contract and we blinked at the first offer.

You may be able to hold your breath on this one Sedat. Clayton's not a great recruiter and that's what he's being paid at GC to do. Perhaps a return to the Bulldogs as a footy manager to replace Fantasia is not out of the realms of possibility.

[ReLoad]

I would guess he was on a fair bit at the end of the deal - so maybe 500-550K.

I heard 650k.

He was on 200k in his first year due to extreme cap pressure, 450k in his second year and 650k in his third.

How the Hawks could afford that is beyond me, unless of course Bwian will play for them for much less, which he may well do.

Is it just me or are player agents becoming more like unscrupulous vultures every trade year, Marty Pask came across as a real knob.

I wonder where we will spend all of our cap now? front load even more onto Dahl, Griff, Wallis etc?

[LongWait]

I'm presuming you are able to distinguish the actual trading of Lake (not an unfathomable option considering his age profile) with the compensation received, not to mention the haste with which the trade was agreed to by the club?

Negotiating is an artform and a skill that Scott Clayton was exceptional at - we have missed this skill so badly in recent years, and the haste of this Lake trade only reinforces that. He is under contract and we blinked at the first offer, 1 day into a 21 day trade period.

We don't know what transpired behind closed doors but Marty Pask was talking about Lake going to the club of his choice now (via a trade) or in 12 months for free. I didn't get the impression we were being given the option to shop Brian around to find the highest bidder.

[Desipura]

I bet you anything, right now that is what we will do.

If you believe that, I am certain we will not do that deal.

[bornadog]

Aren't we in development mode?

How are we meant to find our next FB if thats the only position Brian wants to play.

Thats no reason Chef. Do we get rid of Bob Murphy because we need to develop someone. What about Cross, Gia, Boyd, Morris. We need a blend of players and Champs around the club.

[Greystache]

I heard 650k.

I wonder where we will spend all of our cap now? front load even more onto Dahl, Griff, Wallis etc?

Even if we do that I think we'd still struggle to be over the minimum spend. We have the space to chase a big fish on their way up, hopefully we take the opportunity.

[bornadog]

If you believe that, I am certain we will not do that deal.

What does that mean Desi?

[chef]

Thats no reason Chef. Do we get rid of Bob Murphy because we need to develop someone. What about Cross, Gia, Boyd, Morris. We need a blend of players and Champs around the club.

I guess it's depends on whether these players are happy to play in other positions to better the development of the team.

If Lake is saying I'm playing only FB or trade me, than we did the right thing.

[LongWait]

When was the last time a club traded a 31 year old player for a first round draft pick and a second round pick downgrade?

We traded pick 47 for Hall if I recall correctly.

[always right]

Thats no reason Chef. Do we get rid of Bob Murphy because we need to develop someone. What about Cross, Gia, Boyd, Morris. We need a blend of players and Champs around the club.

Isn't the real question.....would you trade Bob Murphy (bad example) if he told the coach he will only play in his preferred position? The reality is none of the blokes you have named would put the coach in that position.

[F'scary]

It is a good move.

1st round pick (21) for Lake with a downgrading of pick 27 to 41.

He is a free agent next year and Bulldogs would not get a 1st round pick as compensation.

I do not calculate that any other club would have offered a 1st round draft pick for him. He is nearing the end of his useful life and may only have one more good full season left in his energy banks at best.

The club leadership has pulled off a coup as I compute it.

[Ozza]

Isn't the real question.....would you trade Bob Murphy (bad example) if he told the coach he will only play in his preferred position? The reality is none of the blokes you have named would put the coach in that position.

Great point.

If Brian indeed did say he didn't want to play for us because BMac told him he wouldn't play FB again (which I think is nonsense) - then thats seems like a terriffic reason to trade him.

As you said - a Bob Murphy or a Gia wouldn't put themselves before the team like that....Dale Morris and Daniel Cross would get their heads knocked off for the team.

The only legitmacy to the theory of Lake being miffed about what position he plays in - is that all of us are quietly suspicious that he is just the sort of bloke who would be selfish enough to leave for a reason like that.

[bornadog]

Isn't the real question.....would you trade Bob Murphy (bad example) if he told the coach he will only play in his preferred position? The reality is none of the blokes you have named would put the coach in that position.

From Lakes point of view, he has been an AA fullback, he isnot a KPF and there is lots of competition for that role. The Hawks are recruiting for the backline.

[anfo27]

Was happy to trade Brian if the deal favoured us but this is outrageous. I agree with Sedat on this. We had all the power in this trade & we still get bent over. We can't even get 1 single decent pick for a player that helps the hawks big time.
Posters talking about freeing up his contract, i don't think so people. There is no way the hawks can fit Brain into their salary cap so we are on the hook for at least half of his wage.
What is this rubbish about 'if he leaves next year we get nothing'? Did the saints get anything for Goddard? If we kept him & he left the compensation we would get would be better than pick bloody 41 & an upgrade of 6 picks & being left paying half his salary.
I would love to play poker against the muppets we have down there doing these deals.
Today is right up there with some of the worst days ever to be a bulldogs fan. I thought it could not get any worse after missing out on Martin.
Maybe we can trade Griffin to the bombers to solve their midfield problems for Scott Gumbleton & a change of 2nd round picks?
Will not be able to sleep tonight.

[bornadog]

Great point.

If Brian indeed did say he didn't want to play for us because BMac told him he wouldn't play FB again (which I think is nonsense)

I can confirm my friend was told by Macca at the Brisbane match, in the rooms that this was the case. I don't make things up. He was also told Murphy will play forward next year.

[Eastdog]

Thats no reason Chef. Do we get rid of Bob Murphy because we need to develop someone. What about Cross, Gia, Boyd, Morris. We need a blend of players and Champs around the club.

Agree BAD. You need to have a mix of experience and youth. Lake comes into the same category of those players you listed so it is a very bad trade in my view. I sure hope our recruiting staff know what they are doing because they will come under fire if they get it wrong.

[chef]

From Lakes point of view, he has been an AA fullback, he isnot a KPF and there is lots of competition for that role. The Hawks are recruiting for the backline.

You do(or play in the position) as the coach tells you don't you?

[Throughandthrough]

Is Cooney also on the table?

[bornadog]

You do(or play in the position) as the coach tells you don't you?

Its equivalent to telling Buddy you are now a fullback.

[Ozza]

I can confirm my friend was told by Macca at the Brisbane match, in the rooms that this was the case. I don't make things up. He was also told Murphy will play forward next year.

I'm not disputing that point. I'm disputing that he has asked to be traded BECAUSE of not playing at full back. If he is leaving because of that - then I'm glad he is leaving.

[immortalmike]

I guess it's depends on whether these players are happy to play in other positions to better the development of the team.

If Lake is saying I'm playing only FB or trade me, than we did the right thing.

This is the best point in the thread. Johnno and Granty were happy to sacrifice their games in order to help the club in 03, 04, and 05. If Lake isn't the same then it's understandable but good riddance.


When was the last time a club traded a 31 year old player for a first round draft pick and a second round pick downgrade?

We traded pick 47 for Hall if I recall correctly.

To be fair Barry was 33 had just punched two guys out, and retired. Might have been a bit more of a risk than a player who just finished top ten in his club's best and fairest after playing 20 odd games.

[Eastdog]

I'm not disputing that point. I'm disputing that he has asked to be traded BECAUSE of not playing at full back. If he is leaving because of that - then I'm glad he is leaving.

Could he still have been useful though if not playing at fullback. He wasn't to bad at times up forward.

[bornadog]

I'm not disputing that point. I'm disputing that he has asked to be traded BECAUSE of not playing at full back. If he is leaving because of that - then I'm glad he is leaving.

Well that's what Pask basically said.

At the end of the day, he is a fullback, not a fullforward. If he is told he isnot wanted as a fullback but the Hawks do, well what the hell do you think he is going to do.

Its very different for talls compared to mids who can become a HFF or HBF. Lake can only really play back or forward in a key role and he is not a forward, despite what posters think.

[chef]

Its equivalent to telling Buddy you are now a fullback.

No it's not. The two teams are at different stages, ones topping up for a tilt and the other is in a pretty big rebuild from the ground up. While players, one the best player in the league at his peak, while the other had an awesome 3-4 seasons and is currently a shadow of his former self with on;y a couple of seasons left in him.

I was all for keeping Lake, but glad he's been traded if the play me at FB or I'm gone sorry is true.

[Sedat]

You may be able to hold your breath on this one Sedat. Clayton's not a great recruiter and that's what he's being paid at GC to do. Perhaps a return to the Bulldogs as a footy manager to replace Fantasia is not out of the realms of possibility.
Scott Clayton as solely a footy manager would be a terrific result for the club - hopefully you know something 'stache. Without going over tired old ground, Fantasia is simply out of his depth in the footy manager role (Lake compensation is Exhibit 'Z' in the Fantasia list of blunders) and we absolutely need to find someone more talented and capable in this crucial position at the club.

Back on topic, interesting that Mark Stevens is not too thrilled wih the level of compensation we received for Lake - not happy with pick 27 packaged up into the mix.

[chef]

Scott Clayton as solely a footy manager would be a terrific result for the club - hopefully you know something 'stache. Without going over tired old ground, Fantasia is simply out of his depth in the footy manager role (Lake compensation is Exhibit 'Z' in the Fantasia list of blunders) and we absolutely need to find someone more talented and capable in this crucial position at the club.

Back on topic, interesting that Mark Stevens is not too thrilled wih the level of compensation we received for Lake - not happy with pick 27 packaged up into the mix.

Me neither, but it feels like we were happy to move him on.

[Dry Rot]

Back on topic, interesting that Mark Stevens is not too thrilled wih the level of compensation we received for Lake - not happy with pick 27 packaged up into the mix.

Link?

Dunno why we had to hurry this trade on day 1.

[Sedat]

Link?

Dunno why we had to hurry this trade on day 1.
His twitter account.

[FrediKanoute]

Sorry mate, can't agree with this? When did he say he would leave next year? Thats just bullshit from Marty Pask who has spun a story to get Brian to move and he can get more commission.

Our coach has told a two time AA fullback that he won't be playing fullback any more, so what the hell is Brian to do?

How about Brian suck's it up and takes on the challenge set down by the coach. What did Libba do when Wallace said you need to re-invent? What about Chris Grant being sent to CHB? Steve Wallis moving from midfield to back pocket? I'm getting tired of players who put themselves above the club.

12 years ago Brian was lucky to be drafted and through a lot of hard work on his behalf and the clubs he has become the best full back since Rick Kennedy. Wonderful, but tbh, guys who truly bleed for the club don't hold the club over a barrel. I'm not saying that Brian shouldn't have exracted the best possible deal fro himself, but there are ways to do things.....

Good luck Brian. Thanks for the 197 games and the rock you have been in the backline. Good luck on winning a Premiership next year.

Memo to the recrutment team DO NOT F*CK THIS UP!

[Grantysghost]

Seems footy has lost its soul in a way, the price of free agency. In my mind Brian was a club legend. Best full back i've seen (Rick Kennedy a close second), best and fairest and all australian. We are speaking in terms of trades and draft positions but i feel that more is lost in a move like this.

Can you imagine Essendon trading Dustin Fletcher in a similar fashion? They would burn down Windy Hill!

[immortalmike]

Well that's what Pask basically said.

At the end of the day, he is a fullback, not a fullforward. If he is told he isnot wanted as a fullback but the Hawks do, well what the hell do you think he is going to do.

Its very different for talls compared to mids who can become a HFF or HBF. Lake can only really play back or forward in a key role and he is not a forward, despite what posters think.

Thanks BAD you have successfully and probably unintentionally made me feel a whole lot better about Lake leaving. Chris Grant, Archer, Silvagni, Lynch, Daniel Merret hell even Matty Croft have played wherever the coach wanted them to in development years. Yes they would have been better placed to play their natural positions but they sacrificed for the greater good of the club. If Lake didn't want to do that then fine, that's his perogative but the we are a team and nobody is bigger than the whole.

Look I loved Lakey more than most but he was always a me first player (that's what made him so great). Obviously this doesn't fit well with a developing side. Good luck to him and no hard feelings. Just pissed at what we got for him.

[always right]

Its equivalent to telling Buddy you are now a fullback.

Do you really want to stick with this as a comparison....really?

[LongWait]

Back on topic, interesting that Mark Stevens is not too thrilled wih the level of compensation we received for Lake - not happy with pick 27 packaged up into the mix.

I think we all would have liked to received more. It is what it is though, and I think Stevens was kind to Lake in not mentioning we were railroaded by Lake.

[LostDoggy]

It is a good move.

1st round pick (21) for Lake with a downgrading of pick 27 to 41.

He is a free agent next year and Bulldogs would not get a 1st round pick as compensation.

I do not calculate that any other club would have offered a 1st round draft pick for him. He is nearing the end of his useful life and may only have one more good full season left in his energy banks at best.

The club leadership has pulled off a coup as I compute it.

I agree with this. Its a bold move and we should be applauding the club for not sitting on its hands, but actively developing a list that will win us a premiership.

[Mantis]

“In what is an exciting time for the Club we are looking forward to continuing to develop the team under Brendan McCartney,” McCartney said.

Exciting time? Really Jason.

We were horrible to watch this past season and showed very little improvement or development across the board.

Good luck boys... you have a massive job at hand.

[immortalmike]

Scott Clayton as solely a footy manager would be a terrific result for the club - hopefully you know something 'stache. Without going over tired old ground, Fantasia is simply out of his depth in the footy manager role (Lake compensation is Exhibit 'Z' in the Fantasia list of blunders) and we absolutely need to find someone more talented and capable in this crucial position at the club.

Back on topic, interesting that Mark Stevens is not too thrilled wih the level of compensation we received for Lake - not happy with pick 27 packaged up into the mix.

Could not agree more with this. Was never worried when he was negotiating on our behalf.

[Dry Rot]

His twitter account.

Thanks

[Mofra]

This is the best point in the thread. Johnno and Granty were happy to sacrifice their games in order to help the club in 03, 04, and 05. If Lake isn't the same then it's understandable but good riddance.
Gia playing forward and Roughy at FB are current examples.

I don't think there's too much of an issue at trading Lake out, but the return we got was poor and it's the first day of a 3 week trading period.

[FrediKanoute]

Isn't the real question.....would you trade Bob Murphy (bad example) if he told the coach he will only play in his preferred position? The reality is none of the blokes you have named would put the coach in that position.

BINGO! Those guys are more team orientated. Brian as great as he was, was always about Brian first, club and team mates second....

We can make this work for us. ITs a bold step which will cost early, but if we choose right and don't waste it on a Howard we will be ok.

[Wing_Nut]

Happy with this trade. Compensation could have been slightly improved but seems like we had little choice. Did what had to be done. Lake only going to improve us from 13/14 to 11/12 at best anyway, so we've got better draft picks next year now too! :D

[Topdog]

Well that's what Pask basically said.


What did he ACTUALLY say?

[Topdog]

I think we all would have liked to received more. It is what it is though, and I think Stevens was kind to Lake in not mentioning we were railroaded by Lake.

rubbish. We had another 20 days to negotiate.

[LongWait]

rubbish. We had another 20 days to negotiate.

What's rubbish? Not sure what you mean.

I'm not sure that spending more time would have made a difference. Lake's management approached us last week and told us that Lake would be leaving us at the end of next season unless he was traded to the club of his choice this year.

Spending another three weeks agonising over this with Hawthorn may have resulted in a worse deal. It may have resulted in a better deal. We can't know the unknowable.

Perhaps Hawthorn had plans to use pick 21 to another trade and we had to do a deal quickly or they would commit the pick we wanted to some other cause. We are all speculating and may never know.

I don't think we were in a good situation and Lake is entirely responsible for that.

[LostDoggy]

Just think this is an awful deal for us. It's not like we were pushed for room in the salary cap.

[Topdog]

Rubbish that we were railroaded. You can't be railroaded when you accept a deal without negotiating properly

[FrediKanoute]

rubbish. We had another 20 days to negotiate.

Yep, but negotiations can go both ways. What if another club came in and offered an adequate, but lesser fullback for the Hawks 2nd round pick? Fast forward a year and the Hawks happily take Lake for nothing.

This is the brutal world of Free Agency, and we will just have to get used to gun players being traded with 12+ months to go on their contract, because losing them for nothing isn't an option.

Doing the deal today, puts us in a position where:

1) we now have an upgraded pick we can on trade should something else become available (who knows we may be able to facilitate a 3 way deal);

2) we can focus on our own list management and looking at potential draftees.

I see no harm in doing the deal early. The only concern I have is if the Hawks were to down grade their 1st round pick......

[Topdog]

Then they take him for nothing and we get a compensation pick from the AFL of most likely a 2nd round pick which funnily enough will probably be 20-25

[LostDoggy]

Had we kept 27 it's gold. As it stands its just horrid.

Having said which - if Brian wants out he can go. We need to build a culture of love of the club and we won't build it by keeping people who don't want to be there. We are going to get ruined on the field next year.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

JMac said no more trading we are done....phew. (I assume unless something great comes up ie not Dawes)

If this is the case then I guess that means that our interest in Koby Stevens has either waned or West Coast want too much.

[LongWait]

Rubbish that we were railroaded. You can't be railroaded when you accept a deal without negotiating properly

Lake gave us an ultimatum: trade me now to the Hawks, or I'll walk in 12 months to them and you'll have to accept whatever the AFL decides to give you. That is almost verbatim what Marty Pask said on several occasions in the media today.

I feel pissed off about how this has transpired, but I'm not sure that taking an extra 20 days to do the deal with the Hawks would have resulted in a better outcome. You obviously see it differently, so we'll have to agree to disagee given that we'll never know who is right.

[azabob]

Another odd thing is the way this trade is being described. IIRC We're not getting pick 21.

What makes you say that?

[azabob]

Then they take him for nothing and we get a compensation pick from the AFL of most likely a 2nd round pick which funnily enough will probably be 20-25

According to a few scribes apparently due to his age it would actually be a bit higher than second round, more like late 3rd round.

[Grantysghost]

How can we say what might happen in twelve months? Brian could've had an outstanding year, won the B&F, made AA. We have some late wins ala 2005 and there's hope again. He may have been re-invigorated and stayed. He may have been injured and retired. Who knows. I don't agree with the "twelve months he walks" line being used by his management. The deal stinks. The club needs legends. Whether Brian wanted out, or the club wanted him out to me it still feels wrong. First round draft picks don't necessarily equal success, we need to build a culture and you don't do that by trading your champs. Time will tell I guess, but right now I'm feeling a little disheartened.

[Dry Rot]

What makes you say that?

I deleted that post - I realise I could be wrong but I thought we'd get pushed back by FA compo picks eg Goddard?

[azabob]

I deleted that post - I realise I could be wrong but I thought we'd get pushed back by FA compo picks eg Goddard?

I think you are right, we can get pushed back through FA compo picks. Well that is my limited understanding.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

What's rubbish? Not sure what you mean.

I'm not sure that spending more time would have made a difference. Lake's management approached us last week and told us that Lake would be leaving us at the end of next season unless he was traded to the club of his choice this year.

Spending another three weeks agonising over this with Hawthorn may have resulted in a worse deal. It may have resulted in a better deal. We can't know the unknowable.

Perhaps Hawthorn had plans to use pick 21 to another trade and we had to do a deal quickly or they would commit the pick we wanted to some other cause. We are all speculating and may never know.

I don't think we were in a good situation and Lake is entirely responsible for that.

I think you've articulated the most likely scenario that has played out.
As much as I too think we've been put over a barrel here, the only other option was to keep a disgruntled player on the list and risk him causing disharmony amongst the team next year, and then losing him for nothing anyway.

[Topdog]

According to a few scribes apparently due to his age it would actually be a bit higher than second round, more like late 3rd round.

so 3rd round, pick 38-43 then. So basically we did it now to go up from pick 27 to 21

[Maddog37]

Brian definitely looked like he had lost interest in the second half of the season. Wouldn't be a major surprise if Bmac was not a massive fan of Brian's particular personality traits.

[LostDoggy]

What is this rubbish about 'if he leaves next year we get nothing'? Did the saints get anything for Goddard?

As far as I can see Lake would have been an unrestricted free agent, which means no compensation. Goddard was a restricted free agent, hence the compo. Stand to be corrected though.

I am annoyed, but I do see the reasoning for trading Brian, it now gives us the flexibility to look around at other trades etc and see if anything comes of that as well as looking at another draftee. We have six picks inside the top 50.

From what I could gather it appears that Brian's manager approached Hawthorn and then went back to the Dogs. I dont think it was us that initiated the deal.

The only issue I have is that who the hell is going to play on the bigger power forwards? I hope that the midfield is going to put a lot more pressure on ball carriers to make sure that delivery into the forward line is not going to put the key defenders under pressure.

This draft is going to be the most important draft for our club in the last 10 years, so the football dept better get it right.

[always right]

How can we say what might happen in twelve months? Brian could've had an outstanding year, won the B&F, made AA. We have some late wins ala 2005 and there's hope again. He may have been re-invigorated and stayed. He may have been injured and retired. Who knows. I don't agree with the "twelve months he walks" line being used by his management. The deal stinks. The club needs legends. Whether Brian wanted out, or the club wanted him out to me it still feels wrong. First round draft picks don't necessarily equal success, we need to build a culture and you don't do that by trading your champs. Time will tell I guess, but right now I'm feeling a little disheartened.

Do we need a culture that tolerates players putting the club over a barrel and insisting they only play in a certain position? Just saying.

[bornadog]

Seems footy has lost its soul in a way, the price of free agency. In my mind Brian was a club legend. Best full back i've seen (Rick Kennedy a close second), best and fairest and all australian. We are speaking in terms of trades and draft positions but i feel that more is lost in a move like this.

Can you imagine Essendon trading Dustin Fletcher in a similar fashion? They would burn down Windy Hill!

This ^^^

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Yep, but negotiations can go both ways. What if another club came in and offered an adequate, but lesser fullback for the Hawks 2nd round pick? Fast forward a year and the Hawks happily take Lake for nothing.

This is the brutal world of Free Agency, and we will just have to get used to gun players being traded with 12+ months to go on their contract, because losing them for nothing isn't an option.

Doing the deal today, puts us in a position where:

1) we now have an upgraded pick we can on trade should something else become available (who knows we may be able to facilitate a 3 way deal);

2) we can focus on our own list management and looking at potential draftees.

I see no harm in doing the deal early. The only concern I have is if the Hawks were to down grade their 1st round pick......

I tend to agree that just on the face of having a potentially disgruntled and disruptive influence on a young team next year is not what the club needs and the deal is better than that outcome.
I also think though that there was potential risk for Brian in threatening to just walk out for nix next year to the Hawks.
He could have an injury riddled season next year, or just as worse have a terrible year on the field. And then at the end of the season who is to say that a better, younger fullback became available that was of interest to the Hawks.
Finally let's not forget at the end of next year Lake would be rising 31 pushing 32. The possibility could just as well be that Lake could've found himself unwanted by season 2013's end
So I'm more leaning toward the fact that the club has decided to just move quickly and take the offer, rather than risk being stuck with a guy who doesn't want to be here anymore as opposed to the risk of losing him for nothing.

As for the Hawks downgrading their pick, surely our negotiators have made the deal contingent upon the pick being specifically pick 21.

[Desipura]

What does that mean Desi?

You have made some assumptions in the past, that were not factual. I believe this is another one. I do not think Dawes will be picked up with our pick 21.
If he is, you can tell me "told you so" haha

[bornadog]

BINGO! Those guys are more team orientated. Brian as great as he was, was always about Brian first, club and team mates second.....

You know this for sure do you? I don't know how anyone can actually say this:confused:

[bornadog]

You have made some assumptions in the past, that were not factual. I believe this is another one. I do not think Dawes will be picked up with our pick 21.
If he is, you can tell me "told you so" haha

What assumptions have I made in the past that were not true?

[Grantysghost]

Do we need a culture that tolerates players putting the club over a barrel and insisting they only play in a certain position? Just saying.

If this is true definitely not. You would hope that everyone is pulling in the same direction, and that if a decision like that was made there would be buy in from everyone. Back to the culture i guess, it goes both ways. I just think there is a lot of conjecture and not a lot of facts other than one of our club greats is gone.

[LostDoggy]

Six picks inside 50. In a very talented draft. Brave and decisive move by JMac and Dalrymple (leave Fanta out of it, he doesn't manage the list). It's the sort of move that allows you to build and secure a future for the club; a long term thing. Those who want a better return on a ridiculously expensive 31 year old soon-to-be has-been with issues should check if their reality meters are turned on and functioning properly. Brian was already gone, in more ways than one. He hasn't been a happy camper since Rocket's rockets hit their mark a few years ago. His best days at our club are long gone. He was a great player for us in his day, but he isn't now and wouldn't have been again - for us. He might have a slight return to form in the poo and p1ss jumper, but it will be a fleeting thing. In the meantime, we have freed up a massive chunk of salary cap and made room for another promising first round pick, hopefully a ten year player. As for negotiating for 20 days as some posters suggest... What for? The deal is done, and we are well placed if any opportunities arise, not locked into some three or four way house of cards sweating on last minute outcomes. Bring on the draft!

[LongWait]

Can you imagine Essendon trading Dustin Fletcher in a similar fashion? They would burn down Windy Hill!

Can you imagine Dustin Fletcher telling Essendon that he wants to be traded right now, otherwise he walks in 12 months time?

In this context, comparing Dustin Fletcher to Brian Lake is being disrespectful to Fletcher.

[Desipura]

When was the last time a club traded a 31 year old player for a first round draft pick and a second round pick downgrade?

We traded pick 47 for Hall if I recall correctly.

I can't recall anyone doing such a deal. I honestly believe Brian was going through the motions this year, and could not see it getting any better next season.
In fact I made mention of this during the year that I thought the likes of Hargreave and Lake were playing without any incentive, almost like they were counting down the games towards the end of their careers.

[Mantis]

Brian definitely looked like he had lost interest in the second half of the season. Wouldn't be a major surprise if Bmac was not a massive fan of Brian's particular personality traits.

So B-Mac only gets through to players with certain personality traits?

Being a good senior coach requires the ability to work with different character traits... to be a good man manager, abilities B-Mac hasn't shown yet.

From a far it seems that B-Mac wants to work only with 'choir boys'.

[Desipura]

Gia playing forward and Roughy at FB are current examples.

I don't think there's too much of an issue at trading Lake out, but the return we got was poor and it's the first day of a 3 week trading period.

If Hawthorn are paying his salary next season, is it still a poor return for a 31 year old?

[Grantysghost]

Can you imagine Dustin Fletcher telling Essendon that he wants to be traded right now, otherwise he walks in 12 months time?

In this context, comparing Dustin Fletcher to Brian Lake is being disrespectful to Fletcher.

No I can't imagine a player doing that. The comparison was based on his position and status within the side.

[Desipura]

What assumptions have I made in the past that were not true?

Do we need to go there? Current coaches, previous coaches. Let's agree to disagree.

[GVGjr]

So B-Mac only gets through to players with certain personality traits?

Being a good senior coach requires the ability to work with different character traits... to be a good man manager, abilities B-Mac hasn't shown yet.



Agreed but one season isn't a great period to judge him on.



From a far it seems that B-Mac wants to work only with 'choir boys'.

Not sure I agree with this. He rated Steven Johnson highly and he was no choir boy.

[Desipura]

So B-Mac only gets through to players with certain personality traits?

Being a good senior coach requires the ability to work with different character traits... to be a good man manager, abilities B-Mac hasn't shown yet.

From a far it seems that B-Mac wants to work only with 'choir boys'.

He likes Clay Smith, would you call him a choir boy?

[LongWait]

No I can't imagine a player doing that. The comparison was based on his position and status within the side.

But that is exactly what Lake has done to us - Pask was crystal clear about this point today. Pask tried to spin it to have us believe that Lake is doing the right thing in wanting a trade now, because the alternative is he goes as a free agent next year.

[bornadog]

Do we need to go there? Current coaches, previous coaches. Let's agree to disagree.

Sorry you brought it up and once again want to make it personal.

I expressed my opinion that we will be putting up pick 21 for Dawes. Just make an argument against that, not just say because I said it it must be wrong?

[bornadog]

But that is exactly what Lake has done to us - Pask was crystal clear about this point today. Pask tried to spin it to have us believe that Lake is doing the right thing in wanting a trade now, because the alternative is he goes as a free agent next year.

LW, do you really believe Pask - he is just spinning. There is more to this and we don't know the truth.

[Mantis]

Not sure I agree with this. He rated Steven Johnson highly and he was no choir boy.

In what respect? Sure he played up away from the club, but he is self driven and a hard worker at the club.


He likes Clay Smith, would you call him a choir boy?

Why isn't he?

[Eastdog]

Just think this is an awful deal for us. It's not like we were pushed for room in the salary cap.

Maybe looking at it now we all would say its a very bad deal but down the track this most likely will be a win for us. Don't get me wrong Brian Lake is a champion player but he is not going to get any better and thats what they may have been thinking as well in doing this trade. It is very important though that we still hang on to experience because they will be the ones who guide our young players.

[GVGjr]

In what respect? Sure he played up away from the club, but he is self driven and a hard worker at the club.



I heard him talk about Johnson and said while he was a difficult player the coaches were all behind him to work through his issues. I got the impression that if you are a hard worker he can look past some other less than choir boy traits.

[LongWait]

LW, do you really believe Pask - he is just spinning. There is more to this and we don't know the truth.

I'm sure you are right BAD - we will never know all of the behind-the-scenes goings on.

I believe Pask when he says that he approached the Bulldogs and told them that Lake wants to go to the Hawks and we should trade him now or Lake walks at the end of next season. Pask has no reason to lie about that.

[Grantysghost]

But that is exactly what Lake has done to us - Pask was crystal clear about this point today. Pask tried to spin it to have us believe that Lake is doing the right thing in wanting a trade now, because the alternative is he goes as a free agent next year.

I heard that interview. I doubt its as simple as that. The club isn't beholden to the whims of player managers. They make their own decisions and don't think twice about cutting players when they are believed to be of no worth.
Bit harsh on Brian I think.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I'm sure you are right BAD - we will never know all of the behind-the-scenes goings on.

I believe Pask when he says that he approached the Bulldogs and told them that Lake wants to go to the Hawks and we should trade him now or Lake walks at the end of next season. Pask has no reason to lie about that.

Don't you think that, with Lake to be 31 years of age at the end of next season, that he and Pask were playing a risky game by stating they would just go the free agency route next year?

There is the risk that Lake could've had a shocker next, been injured or even worse a younger talented prospect becomes available for free-agency- and Hawks decide come season end of 2013 they are no longer interested in him.

[Desipura]

LW, do you really believe Pask - he is just spinning. There is more to this and we don't know the truth.

Bad, do you know he is spinning the truth? How do you know if as you claim there is more to this?

[Desipura]

In what respect? Sure he played up away from the club, but he is self driven and a hard worker at the club.



Why isn't he?

Do you think he plays like a choir boy?

[LongWait]

Don't you think that, with Lake to be 31 years of age at the end of next season, that he and Pask were playing a risky game by stating they would just go the free agency route next year?

There is the risk that Lake could've had a shocker next, been injured or even worse a younger talented prospect becomes available for free-agency- and Hawks decide come season end of 2013 they are no longer interested in him.

Wouldn't that scenario put us in an even worse position? We could expect nothing at all for Lake at the end of 2013 and would have paid him $650k or thereabouts for a crap season.

[Eastdog]

Bad, do you know he is spinning the truth? How do you know if as you claim there is more to this?

Good point Desipura we don't know the whole story behind this. Would you say we most likely just sacked him.

[AndrewP6]

I've read through all these posts, some I agree with, some I disagree with. One thing's for sure, I'm stunned at this turn of events. McCartney has talked about building the club, well, that must also include the fabric. Good luck to the membership dept. trying to sell hope on the back of a team with a bunch of kids, no full forward of note and now no fullback.

So long Briza, you've been a hell of a player for us,and wouldn't be surprised if you get to salute next September.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

Wouldn't that scenario put us in an even worse position? We could expect nothing at all for Lake at the end of 2013 and would have paid him $650k or thereabouts for a crap season.

I agree.
But it's also a nightmare scenario for Brian. I'm just saying that I don't necessarily think that another year is a long time, and that Brian may just as easily - had the club not just pulled the trigger on the deal- have ended up an unwanted player by season end next year.

[Mantis]

Do you think he plays like a choir boy?

Nope... but I was never talking about playing style.

[Doc26]

The deal stinks. The club needs legends. Whether Brian wanted out, or the club wanted him out to me it still feels wrong. First round draft picks don't necessarily equal success, we need to build a culture and you don't do that by trading your champs. Time will tell I guess, but right now I'm feeling a little disheartened.

Whilst I'm struggling somewhat to rationalise why we needed to give up our pick 27 to make this deal happen can I at least share with you a snapshot of what our table, which did include some past greats of our Club, observed at the B&F last Saturday night from table Lake and Cooney who were sitting close by. I should preface this by stating that I'm questioning the cultural value rather than that of their football ability which is unquestionable.

Matthew Boyd, after being announced our three time Club Champion, was delivering his heartfelt acceptance speech whilst these two were totally engulfed in childlike behaviour playing iPhones.

This untimely, inappropriate behaviour did not go unnoticed from those around.

This from two of our supposed leaders who should be driving a culture that demands respect, ruthlessness and professionalism.

The observation was passed on the table that these two are just 'ferals'.

A small example maybe but gee it stood out as very disrespectful to someone who busts a gut like few others.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I just hope that the only reason we gave up pick 27 in this deal was to ensure that Hawks took 100% of Brian's hefty salary next year off our books.
I would hate to think that we are still left with any residual payments for Brian for ostensibly a 6 pick upgrade and a late second round pick.

[Desipura]

Whilst I'm struggling somewhat to rationalise why we needed to give up our pick 27 to make this deal happen can I at least share with you a snapshot of what our table, which did include some past greats of our Club, observed at the B&F last Saturday night from table Lake and Cooney who were sitting close by. I should preface this by stating that I'm questioning the cultural value rather than that of their football ability which is unquestionable.

Matthew Boyd, after being announced our three time Club Champion, was delivering his heartfelt acceptance speech whilst these two were totally engulfed in childlike behaviour playing iPhones.

This untimely, inappropriate behaviour did not go unnoticed from those around.

This from two of our supposed leaders who should be driving a culture that demands respect, ruthlessness and professionalism.

The observation was passed on the table that these two are just 'ferals'.
This sadly does not surprise me. As good as Brian was in his peak, he did his own thing in the back line. When we were a good side he could get away with it, when he was made to play tighter, he struggled.
A few years back he was up there with the best.

[G-Mo77]

I think Lake now has a 2 year deal at Hawthorn with a club option of a third so no payments are coming from us. He's completely off the books and we have an extra 2nd round pick.

[Eastdog]

This sadly does not surprise me. As good as Brian was in his peak, he did his own thing in the back line. When we were a good side he could get away with it, when he was made to play tighter, he struggled.
A few years back he was up there with the best.

Ever since he came back from his injury setbacks he was not the same. I hope Morris does not go down this route because he is another important player in our defence. Lake was known for getting a lot of junk possessions at the end of games.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

I think Lake now has a 2 year deal at Hawthorn with a club option of a third so no payments are coming from us. He's completely off the books and we have an extra 2nd round pick.

How is it we have an extra 2nd round pick? Didnt' we effectively swap 2nd round picks with them, in addition to getting their pick 21.

[Topdog]

Who cares if he was on the books or not. Unless we sign a free agent the money is pointless.

[LostDoggy]

From a Carlton friend of mine who I have no reason to doubt. He saw Brian at Auskick in Caroline Springs the morning of the Carlton game and when he asked Brian how they'd go tonight, Brian replied, 'we're crap, gonna get flogged'.

Now whether tongue in cheek or whatever, not something you want to hear from anyone at the club.
I rated Brian since day 1 (still remember him running around in the 2's and thinking he was going to be good) but he is hardly the 'clubman' type and all the best chasing premierships elsewhere.

Let's not rate this trade on how well or poorly he goes at Hawthorn but as to how we go with drafting from the picks we got in the trade.

[LongWait]

How is it we have an extra 2nd round pick? Didnt' we effectively swap 2nd round picks with them, in addition to getting their pick 21.

Yes, we swapped second round picks and we now have an extra first round pick (and $650k less in next year's cap.)

[bornadog]

Yes, we swapped second round picks and we now have an extra first round pick (and $650k less in next year's cap.)

Its not a real first round pick, its really a second round pick.

[G-Mo77]

Yes, we swapped second round picks and we now have an extra first round pick (and $650k less in next year's cap.)

We've freed up cash but who do we spend it on now? It's not like it goes into a savings fund and matures for our 2014 campaign. We have to pay most of the cap and I'm guessing we'll be way under now.

[GVGjr]

We've freed up cash but who do we spend it on now? It's not like it goes into a savings fund and matures for our 2014 campaign. We have to pay most of the cap and I'm guessing we'll be way under now.

We could renegotiate some contracts and front load them.

[G-Mo77]

How is it we have an extra 2nd round pick? Didnt' we effectively swap 2nd round picks with them, in addition to getting their pick 21.

Whoops, my bad. We gained a first round pick. I'm choking on my own rage here. :D

[G-Mo77]

We could renegotiate some contracts and front load them.

This is really the only realistic scenario that I can come up, that or we throw it all away on Dawes.

[The Pie Man]

Would have liked more for Brian, but it's not the worst deal we've done (discussing that could be an entirely different thread - early nomination is Peter Street for...was it pick 20?)

I understand the emotions involved, but I can't say I'm shattered. He clearly wants to go, and we get at least something more than used drink bottles for him.

If only he'd held a mark he flew for up forward in the 3rd against St Kilda in the 09 prelim, a goal from it could've changed the game. Will be remembered as a great servant.

[LostDoggy]

Whoops, my bad. We gained a first round pick. I'm choking on my own rage here. :D

If you want to feed the rage (as I do). We swapped two end of first round pretty much and gained an early 40's pick. Yes I realise it's "notionally" a first rounder but we've frankly upgraded a round 2 by 6 points. It ain't great and its got to be a Hawthorn win looked at dispassionately. Shizer of a day :(

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

whoops, my bad. We gained a first round pick. I'm choking on my own rage here. :d

haha!!!!

:D

[Ghost Dog]

I guess it really depends on who we get at 21/ 41 and how they perform long term. It's a risk and I suppose you have to take them.
Breaks my heart really - one of my favourite players. Would have liked a lot higher than 41.\

And perhaps Hawthorn was the only option? As the reality is, when he becomes a free agent, we will get a lot less.
Now it looks like we are putting our hat in the ring for Dawes..... Not sure I like that at all.

[G-Mo77]

If you want to feed the rage (as I do). We swapped two end of first round pretty much and gained an early 40's pick. Yes I realise it's "notionally" a first rounder but we've frankly upgraded a round 2 by 6 points. It ain't great and its got to be a Hawthorn win looked at dispassionately. Shizer of a day :(

Don't I know it Superdog. I read a tweet at work and it said we got pick 21, I thought to myself that's about right. By the time I got home I found out we'd given them #27 and got #41 as well. The rage virus sunk in not long after that. :)

[Ghost Dog]

From a Carlton friend of mine who I have no reason to doubt. He saw Brian at Auskick in Caroline Springs the morning of the Carlton game and when he asked Brian how they'd go tonight, Brian replied, 'we're crap, gonna get flogged'.

Now whether tongue in cheek or whatever, not something you want to hear from anyone at the club.
I rated Brian since day 1 (still remember him running around in the 2's and thinking he was going to be good) but he is hardly the 'clubman' type and all the best chasing premierships elsewhere.

Let's not rate this trade on how well or poorly he goes at Hawthorn but as to how we go with drafting from the picks we got in the trade.

Well said. The reality is, it may come down to his attitude or lack of it, and how that is percieved by Bmac.

[Ghost Dog]

Whilst I'm struggling somewhat to rationalise why we needed to give up our pick 27 to make this deal happen can I at least share with you a snapshot of what our table, which did include some past greats of our Club, observed at the B&F last Saturday night from table Lake and Cooney who were sitting close by. I should preface this by stating that I'm questioning the cultural value rather than that of their football ability which is unquestionable.

Matthew Boyd, after being announced our three time Club Champion, was delivering his heartfelt acceptance speech whilst these two were totally engulfed in childlike behaviour playing iPhones.

This untimely, inappropriate behaviour did not go unnoticed from those around.

This from two of our supposed leaders who should be driving a culture that demands respect, ruthlessness and professionalism.

The observation was passed on the table that these two are just 'ferals'.

A small example maybe but gee it stood out as very disrespectful to someone who busts a gut like few others.

Thanks for this Doc. Makes me feel better already about this trade. Bring on another Matty Boyd. From Franga seconds to GLORY!

[Scraggers]

I'm not that disappointed we lost Lake ... To be quite honest, I've had a bad taste in my mouth since the contract negotiations and the run-in(s) with Rocket two seasons ago when he flatly refused because he was 'injured'.

I'm also not disappointed that we don't have to pay out his contract ... I think he was getting way too much for what he could offer.

What I am disappointed with is the deal itself ... I know, I know ... I've just finished saying how much I didn't want him and then turn around and say I wanted more for him ... But I don't know how the deal could have been sweetened with Hawthorn (who have been chasing him for three seasons if you believe the speculation).

[LongWait]

Its not a real first round pick, its really a second round pick.

I give up BAD. How do you respond to that? It's getting pretty hard to find any motivation to come to this site in the face of this unrelenting negativity.

It is a first round pick we gained. 21 is a first round pick. Play it down and shit on it all you like, but it is a real first round pick and not a second round pick.

[AndrewP6]

I'm not that disappointed we lost Lake ... To be quite honest, I've had a bad taste in my mouth since the contract negotiations and the run-in(s) with Rocket two seasons ago when he flatly refused because he was 'injured'.

He had three surgeries, IIRC. Hard to fake that.

[Mantis]

Thanks for this Doc. Makes me feel better already about this trade. Bring on another Matty Boyd. From Franga seconds to GLORY!

Glory?

[G-Mo77]

I give up BAD. How do you respond to that? It's getting pretty hard to find any motivation to come to this site in the face of this unrelenting negativity.

It is a first round pick we gained. 21 is a first round pick. Play it down and shit on it all you like, but it is a real first round pick and not a second round pick.

Technically it's a first round pick. Don't polish it up that much though, it's the 3rd last pick in the round and we jumped a measly 6 places to get there. It doesn't fill me with any excitement at all.

[The Cowshed]

I give up BAD. How do you respond to that? It's getting pretty hard to find any motivation to come to this site in the face of this unrelenting negativity.

It is a first round pick we gained. 21 is a first round pick. Play it down and shit on it all you like, but it is a real first round pick and not a second round pick.

Doesn't matter what round it is, facts are it is just 6 spots higher than what we already had. On the outer we got dudded but theres obviously more to it that we're not privy to. Perhaps the club could appease the bulk of supporters with an explaination...

[LongWait]

Technically it's a first round pick. Don't polish it up that much though, it's the 3rd last pick in the round and we jumped a measly 6 places to get there. It doesn't fill me with any excitement at all.

I'm not excited either. I hate that this has happened, but why put the worst possible spin on every issue? Following my beloved Bulldogs used to be one of the great joys in my life, but I feel totally depressed about it after spending ten minutes on here.

[Mantis]

Doesn't matter what round it is, facts are it is just 6 spots higher than what we already had. On the outer we got dudded but theres obviously more to it that we're not privy to. Perhaps the club could appease the bulk of supporters with an explaination...

What would you like to hear?

That the coach didn't see eye to eye with the player and we have to chose to part company... I reckon that's it in a nutshell.

[G-Mo77]

I'm not excited either. I hate that this has happened, but why put the worst possible spin on every issue? Following my beloved Bulldogs used to be one of the great joys in my life, but I feel totally depressed about it after spending ten minutes on here.

I'd love to put a positive spin on this deal and I can't find any. Sorry I can't cheer you up mate. :)

[The Cowshed]

What would you like to hear?

That the coach didn't see eye to eye with the player and we have to chose to part company... I reckon that's it in a nutshell.

Yes, wasn't the coach wanting to get to know his players on a personal level, make them better people thus better players...he's taken one of our best players away from the spot he thrived in...what message did that send Brian and what did it do to his confidence and faith in those at the club?

[Mantis]

Yes, wasn't the coach wanting to get to know his players on a personal level, make them better people thus better players...he's taken one of our best players away from the spot he thrived in...what message did that send Brian and what did it do to his confidence and faith in those at the club?

I think the coach put a few in the 'too hard basket' and is putting time into the ones who he thinks can take us forward... hopefully he is right.

But he is going to get a few off-side along the way... hopefully he is good at mending relationships.

[Doc26]

I think the coach put a few in the 'too hard basket' and is putting time into the ones who he thinks can take us forward... hopefully he is right.

But he is going to get a few off-side along the way... hopefully he is good at mending relationships.

Alternatively, and hopefully, Macca proves to be a good judge of the right character required and can weed out those not made of the right stuff. Still early days but I haven't heard or seen anything yet to suggest he's off the mark in this area.

[Maddog37]

What would you like to hear?

That the coach didn't see eye to eye with the player and we have to chose to part company... I reckon that's it in a nutshell.


I think this is a big part of it. He wants our senior payers to lead by example etc etc. Not sure Brian fits the mould.

Macca will live and die by his decisions but at least he is prepared to crack in.

[AndrewP6]

I think this is a big part of it. He wants our senior payers to lead by example etc etc. Not sure Brian fits the mould.

Macca will live and die by his decisions but at least he is prepared to crack in.

Nicely done;)

[Grantysghost]

Whilst I'm struggling somewhat to rationalise why we needed to give up our pick 27 to make this deal happen can I at least share with you a snapshot of what our table, which did include some past greats of our Club, observed at the B&F last Saturday night from table Lake and Cooney who were sitting close by. I should preface this by stating that I'm questioning the cultural value rather than that of their football ability which is unquestionable.

Matthew Boyd, after being announced our three time Club Champion, was delivering his heartfelt acceptance speech whilst these two were totally engulfed in childlike behaviour playing iPhones.

This untimely, inappropriate behaviour did not go unnoticed from those around.

This from two of our supposed leaders who should be driving a culture that demands respect, ruthlessness and professionalism.

The observation was passed on the table that these two are just 'ferals'.

A small example maybe but gee it stood out as very disrespectful to someone who busts a gut like few others.

That does sound disrespectful and inappropriate as described. I guess culture can be viewed in a number of ways. Whilst we like to champion the "bloods" culture of the Swans as the ideal model we can sometimes forget Collingwood were premiers in 2010 with Heath Shaw, Alan Didak, Dane Swan in the side, all who have had their share of problems over the years. I guess you just need to balance to be in favour of players like Boyd and you can carry a few less responsible types.

[Scraggers]

He had three surgeries, IIRC. Hard to fake that.

You misunderstand me Andrew. Its not the fact that I think he faked anything, quite the contrary ... it was his use of the media to downgrade Rocket and the coaching team. It very much reminded me of Brad Hardie waving his jumper at Malthouse.

I know Rocket (and assistant coaches) was/were just as much to blame ... just left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Topdog]

I give up BAD. How do you respond to that? It's getting pretty hard to find any motivation to come to this site in the face of this unrelenting negativity.

It is a first round pick we gained. 21 is a first round pick. Play it down and shit on it all you like, but it is a real first round pick and not a second round pick.

Side with BAD on this one. For the past 2 years even when we weren't involved I have called the picks 1-17(now 18) as first round. The AFL has ruined that with their compo picks and what not but 21 for me is the 3rd pick in the 2nd round.

[SonofScray]

Two parts to it for me:

1. Sad to see Brian go. A great player for us in very good years for our Club, possibly the best performed Bulldog I have seen in the past 15 years.

2. Not upset with the Club at all. I get the sense they wanted to move him on, have thought through the impact of Free Agency and made a tough call. It isn't water tight but I hope the Club is rewarded for making what is a reasonable decision here. I was critical of our inability to take risks and make a hard call n our 'champs' so I have to give credit here.

The only last point to put forward is, please steer clear of Dawes.

[stefoid]

Did this deal have to be done on day 1?

[Scraggers]

Two parts to it for me:

1. Sad to see Brian go. A great player for us in very good years for our Club, possibly the best performed Bulldog I have seen in the past 15 years.

2. Not upset with the Club at all. I get the sense they wanted to move him on, have thought through the impact of Free Agency and made a tough call. It isn't water tight but I hope the Club is rewarded for making what is a reasonable decision here. I was critical of our inability to take risks and make a hard call n our 'champs' so I have to give credit here.

The only last point to put forward is, please steer clear of Dawes.

If we picked up Dawes for a pick out of the top 50, I would not be disappointed. I think he is a better than average player. I would not want to use one of our top 50 picks for him though, and Collingwood would not let him go for anything less; therefore not at that price ... no thanks.

[whythelongface]

Certainly didn't see this coming. I don't know what to think. I am bitterly disappointed that we are losing Brian as he was one of my favourite current players and, on his day, is the best fullback in the game (with the exception being Scarlett). However I can see why the club would decide to trade him if he wanted out to chase premiership glory. The trade would be much easier to accept if it was for pick 21 and 41 and not giving up pick 27 as well.

If he had of hung around next year no doubt he would have still given his all as he would of wanted to make sure he was still of value to another club as a free agent. As others have alluded to we would not have received any compensation for him if he left next year, thus in a way at least we have gained an upgrade and another pick in the top 50.

This trade period is really going to be a make or break trade for setting us up in the future. This decision (ie. the Lake trade) plus our current on-field plight means that short term we will suffer significantly (lack of membership etc.) but hopefully we will start seeing some success in 3 to 4 years time.

[Dogmatic]

Lake has been a champion but im not critical of the trade because of his age and where we are at in our development. Although he has been as good (or better) than murphy, gia and cross. To me, he doesn't come across as the heart and soul of the team like those guys...so it doesn't feel like we have traded a club champion.

This year he seemed disinterested and he probably isn't the ideal role model for a developing team.

[LongWait]

I'd love to put a positive spin on this deal and I can't find any. Sorry I can't cheer you up mate. :)

I'm not looking for a positive spin to be put on this. It's a shitty situation and I'm angry and disappointed that Lake put us in the situation where we were forced to trade him, or put up with him for a year until he walked.

The compensation we received is less than I'd have liked and maybe we could have done better - we'll never know. Some of us have different views about whether we could have gotten a better deal, and that's fine. We can disagree about whether we should have, or could have, held on to Lake until the end of his playing career.

I don't understand why we should pretend that we didn't get a first round pick in the deal - we had two first round picks before the deal and now we have three. It's not pick 10, but it's better than a poke in the eye and hopefully we'll get a 200-gamer from it and we'll look back in three or four years and think we did well.

[The Underdog]

Does anyone think they'd have been happy with this deal post his 2011 season? Taking the emotional side out of it. His value was probably at its lowest then. His form and mental state seemed a mess. He did gain some of that value back this year but I wonder if the current market was slightly lower than is perceived worth among the media and supporters.

[G-Mo77]

I don't understand why we should pretend that we didn't get a first round pick in the deal - we had two first round picks before the deal and now we have three. It's not pick 10, but it's better than a poke in the eye and hopefully we'll get a 200-gamer from it and we'll look back in three or four years and think we did well.

It's only a technicality though. We got pick #21 and #41 for Lake and #27. Take the round number out of it and it looks like crap.

[AndrewP6]

I'm not looking for a positive spin to be put on this. It's a shitty situation and I'm angry and disappointed that Lake put us in the situation where we were forced to trade him, or put up with him for a year until he walked.


It's been speculated, but do we really know Brian "put us in the situation"?

[Redemption97]

I might be the only one but I'm fine with this trade. Lake wanted to go... Let's not forget that Lake lovers. He served us well and has a chance now to do what he wouldn't have done had he remained. Yes it's sad he's gone but it's worked out ok for us and it is obviously what he wanted too.

I'm not sure what more you all expect? He has two years left and would be taking the spot of a kid that has a chance to develop with the rest of our side. I'm ok with the pick upgrade and 41... In time this could be seen as defining draft for us. These picks might be the difference to making this the draft we all want it to be?

[bornadog]

Don't I know it Superdog. I read a tweet at work and it said we got pick 21, I thought to myself that's about right. By the time I got home I found out we'd given them #27 and got #41 as well. The rage virus sunk in not long after that. :)

Would have been more palatable if we had 21 and 27.

[bornadog]

Side with BAD on this one. For the past 2 years even when we weren't involved I have called the picks 1-17(now 18) as first round. The AFL has ruined that with their compo picks and what not but 21 for me is the 3rd pick in the 2nd round.

Thank you, I wasn't being negative, I should have explained it like you have.

[LongWait]

It's been speculated, but do we really know Brian "put us in the situation"?

Lake's manager said that the trade was their idea (Pask and Lake) and was suggested to avoid the situation where Lake would leave as an unrestricted free agent and the club would be at the mercy of the AFL for any compensation we might get.

I think that we had no choice but to trade Lake given that he didn't want to stay. We don't want a disinterested senior player on the books, costing us a fortune and possibly undermining what the coaching staff are trying to achieve with the "total footy" approach.

We may have, probably did have, something to do with Lake wanting to leave though, if that's what you are getting at Andrew? Probably with good reason on the club's behalf. Can't have players dictating which positions they are prepared to play in.

[jeemak]

It's only a technicality though. We got pick #21 and #41 for Lake and #27. Take the round number out of it and it looks like crap.

Unless we have a specific player in mind to draft that we don't think will be available at pick 27.

We use pick 21 on the player we want, and we have another player in mind that we think will be available at pick 41. The club may have made a determination that there's not going to be any difference between having pick 27 and 41 when it comes to securring the player we're after.

We probably weren't interested in receiving any players that Hawthorn may have thrown in with the deal, and there's no way Hawthorn would deem having their first pick at 41 as being a reasonable outcome, meaning they would have to trade a player out (when they may not want to) to secure a lower pick. It's easy to act as if we held all the cards, but there would be limitations to how far Hawthorn would be prepared to go, for a player that may only marginally improve their performance, if at all. A lot still has to go right for them to be as competitive next year as they were in 2012, and they would surely be pragmatic enough to understand that a 31 year old with a recent chequered injury history will not make the difference, and will only be a small piece of the puzzle.

I suppose more will be revealed when we see if we draft for specific need or best available after pick 21.

[Dry Rot]

Would have been more palatable if we had 21 and 27.

Were you prepared for us to pay his 2013 salary?

I might have been, if it meant we retained or bought pick 27.

[bornadog]

Were you prepared for us to pay his 2013 salary?

I might have been, if it meant we retained or bought pick 27.

Maybe that's the reason for giving up pick 27. Its a tough one.

[Sedat]

It's easy to act as if we held all the cards, but there would be limitations to how far Hawthorn would be prepared to go
I think you and quite a few other posters are underestimating the urgency of Hawthorn's needs. They are neck-deep in contention mode and one of the only areas they have a deficiency in is down back with their key defensive posts. We have an AA key defender still near enough to his best, and Hawthorn would have be salivating over the prospect of immediately bolstering their area of deficiency - and as we all know, good key defenders do not grow on trees. With Lake being under contract, we held all the cards.

A week is a long time in footy, let alone 12 months. Hawthorn could be finished as a contender this time next year or they could be a premiership team. Hawthorn was the more desperate of the two parties to orchestrate this trade and we failed to take advantage of the situation.

[AndrewP6]

Lake's manager said that the trade was their idea (Pask and Lake) and was suggested to avoid the situation where Lake would leave as an unrestricted free agent and the club would be at the mercy of the AFL for any compensation we might get.
Fair enough, hadn't seen that.


We may have, probably did have, something to do with Lake wanting to leave though, if that's what you are getting at Andrew? Probably with good reason on the club's behalf. Can't have players dictating which positions they are prepared to play in.

Perhaps. IF it transpired as such, then I'm more understanding. I just don't think it is a good move to send your teams only true KPP packing as easy as that, for the return of picks that may become good players, or my end up in the Spotswood 2's ( no offence to the Spotswood 2's :) )

[bornadog]

I think you and quite a few other posters are underestimating the urgency of Hawthorn's needs. They are neck-deep in contention mode and one of the only areas they have a deficiency in is down back with their key defensive posts. We have an AA key defender still near enough to his best, and Hawthorn would have be salivating over the prospect of immediately bolstering their area of deficiency - and as we all know, good key defenders do not grow on trees. With Lake being under contract, we held all the cards.

A week is a long time in footy, let alone 12 months. Hawthorn could be finished as a contender this time next year or they could be a premiership team. Hawthorn was the more desperate of the two parties to orchestrate this trade and we failed to take advantage of the situation.

What do you think would have been a fair trade? Personally, pick 21 and 41 for Lake and thats it and we keep 27, they take over his contract. Would that be too much?

[jeemak]

I think you and quite a few other posters are underestimating the urgency of Hawthorn's needs. They are neck-deep in contention mode and one of the only areas they have a deficiency in is down back with their key defensive posts. We have an AA key defender still near enough to his best, and Hawthorn would have be salivating over the prospect of immediately bolstering their area of deficiency - and as we all know, good key defenders do not grow on trees. With Lake being under contract, we held all the cards.

A week is a long time in footy, let alone 12 months. Hawthorn could be finished as a contender this time next year or they could be a premiership team. Hawthorn was the more desperate of the two parties to orchestrate this trade and we failed to take advantage of the situation.

Perhaps we have differing views on Hawthorn's summation of Lake's potential impact, rather than the urgency of Hawthorn's situation.

I truly believe that leaving them with pick 41 as their first live pick would be completely unnacceptable to them, meaning they would have to trade a depth player as a minimum to gain a pick in the top 30, to potentially snare a player they had in mind. Losing any such player might not be supplemented by the recruitment of Lake.

While the Hawks have undeniable star power in certain areas of the ground, they rely on a system that sees medium tier players (and in some cases depth players) as being extremely valuable to their success.

[Dry Rot]

What do you think would have been a fair trade? Personally, pick 21 and 41 for Lake and thats it and we keep 27, they take over his contract. Would that be too much?

I do.

IMO, we should have "brought" ie retained our pick 27 and paid most of his salary, in return for their pick 21 only.

If we're worried about paying out salary for nothing, we should reflect on Mr Cooney in 2013.

[Remi Moses]

The players don't run the show.
Lake should play where the coach instructs him to.
Brian and his manager facilitated a trade ( their words)
Comparing the Compo to Goddard is silly to begin with.
One is 31 and the other is 27 for Christ sake.

[LostDoggy]

I heard from someone close to the club late last year (and I don't know if its true) that Rodney Eade was on the verge of being reappointed, he then lost the job when his presentation included the concept that he wanted to trade Lake and Cooney and engage in a list rebuild. Don't know if its true but that is what I heard. Interesting that some of the posters here are now questioning the value of Cooney and Lake is gone.

[KT31]

Does anyone actually know if or what we are paying of Brian salary next season ?

[boydogs]

Who cares if he was on the books or not. Unless we sign a free agent the money is pointless.

Those 2 new fitness coaches and new VFL side to develop our kids aren't pointless.

No point paying 100% of the salary cap with a developing side, you'll only lose players once they reach their peak.

[westbulldog]

Ward gone, Harbrow gone, Lake gone.....obviously an ideal time to recruit some more recycled duds.
Anyone like to predict the score when we play Sydney at the SCG next year ?

[Topdog]

Those 2 new fitness coaches and new VFL side to develop our kids aren't pointless.

No point paying 100% of the salary cap with a developing side, you'll only lose players once they reach their peak.

surely we already we paying no where near 100%

[boydogs]

surely we already we paying no where near 100%

Just saying, money is money, assuming we don't spend Lake's salary on another player doesn't mean it is completely useless.

[westdog54]

Reading this morning's Herald Sun they're giving the impression that Brian took a fairly significant pay cut for a crack at a premiership.

I'm assuming that means we're not paying out his current contract.

[Remi Moses]

Does anyone actually know if or what we are paying of Brian salary next season ?

Heard Mark Evans say Brian's got a new 2 yr deal.
Hence why we through pick 27 their way. Contract gone

[GVGjr]

Reading this morning's Herald Sun they're giving the impression that Brian took a fairly significant pay cut for a crack at a premiership.

I'm assuming that means we're not paying out his current contract.

This is a very significant point. Clearly his heart wasn't in with the clubs rebuilding phase strategy which now makes the deal a bit more understandable to me.

[azabob]

Does anyone actually know if or what we are paying of Brian salary next season ?

We are not paying one cent towards it.

[whythelongface]

We are not paying one cent towards it.

Good news in that regard. Without going through all the posts I assume that is why the trade deal included giving the Hawks pick 27. Is that correct?

[azabob]

Good news in that regard. Without going through all the posts I assume that is why the trade deal included giving the Hawks pick 27. Is that correct?

One can only assume that is the reason.

[whythelongface]

One can only assume that is the reason.

Thanks. So nothing official has come out from the club as yet in regards to the trade?

The more I think about the more I believe that the trade is probably a win-win for both clubs and player. Whilst we could have bargained harder there was no guarantee that the Hawks would settle for anything more for a 31 year old who probably only has two to three years (if that) of top level footy left in him.

It will look strange seeing Brian line up against our team next year.

[Mantis]

This is a very significant point. Clearly his heart wasn't in with the clubs rebuilding phase strategy which now makes the deal a bit more understandable to me.

From what I hear there was very little communication from coach to player in the 2nd half of the year so perhaps reading between the lines Brian felt he wasn't in our plans going forward.

[LostDoggy]

The more I think about the more I believe that the trade is probably a win-win for both clubs and player. Whilst we could have bargained harder there was no guarantee that the Hawks would settle for anything more for a 31 year old who probably only has two to three years (if that) of top level footy left in him.

I always look at trades from the other side of the fence. If this was a Hawthorn forum we would mostly be ROFL.... They needed a full back to fill their team and we held the contract of the only probable decent trade. I normally look through rose coloured glasses but this is a stuff up for mine.

[whythelongface]

I always look at trades from the other side of the fence. If this was a Hawthorn forum we would mostly be ROFL.... They needed a full back to fill their team and we held the contract of the only probable decent trade. I normally look through rose coloured glasses but this is a stuff up for mine.

Good points and given Hawthorn's premiership window it is a great trade for them. From our point of view I am looking at it from a longer term perspective. All things considered it seems like Brian probably would have moved on next year as a free agent without us receiving any compensation, thus by off-loading him this year we at least receive some trade value for him. Sure one could argue that we could have bargained harder and got better trade picks but he is turning 31 and has probably only got one or two years left in him. The fact that we have also freed up some cash under the salary cap is also a bonus. Therefore I think we have done ok out of the trade.

[G-Mo77]

I've simmered a little since last night, still, as soon as I get to work I will be using works time to write a lengthy email to the club to voice my disapproval. I'm pretty sure I'll get a canned response or nothing at all but it will be good to get it all off my chest.

[LostDoggy]

I will reserve my judgement for 3 years. If our number 21 pick is a dud in 3 years time I wont be happy.

[jeemak]

I've simmered a little since last night, still, as soon as I get to work I will be using works time to write a lengthy email to the club to voice my disapproval. I'm pretty sure I'll get a canned response or nothing at all but it will be good to get it all off my chest.

Now that you've slept on it, is it the compensation we received that frustrates or upsets you, or the fact we've lost a club champion and previously excellent player, and current class player making us more vulnerable to smashings next year?

Or do your issues run deeper with the football deparment?

[bornadog]

We are not paying one cent towards it.

How do you know this? According to an article we are paying out his contract for next year, so i don't know what the truth is.?

see here (http://www.footballnation.com.au/afl/afl-clubs/hawks-swoop-on-lake/)

[always right]

How do you know this? According to an article we are paying out his contract for next year, so i don't know what the truth is.?

see here (http://www.footballnation.com.au/afl/afl-clubs/hawks-swoop-on-lake/)

Not sure who Brent Diamond or Football Nation is...but listening to Mark Evans being interviewed on SEN last night, he strongly suggested that there was no payout of Lake's existing contract by the dogs.

[bornadog]

Not sure who Brent Diamond or Football Nation is...but listening to Mark Evans being interviewed on SEN last night, he strongly suggested that there was no payout of Lake's existing contract by the dogs.

Sorry AR, who is Mark Evans?

[G-Mo77]

Now that you've slept on it, is it the compensation we received that frustrates or upsets you, or the fact we've lost a club champion and previously excellent player, and current class player making us more vulnerable to smashings next year?

Or do your issues run deeper with the football deparment?

compensation. It is nowhere near enough to what we should have got for a contracted player. First round pick minimum.