Players under the pump in 2013

[bornadog]

We have the thread on the Dark Horses for 2013, as well as some threads on Vez and Marko, but which players on our list will be playing for their future in 2013 and are at risk of being delisted or may retire anyway.

My list in no particular is:

1. Veszpremi - Lucky to be on the list.

2. Gia - has already indicated probably his last season.

3. Tutt - Needs to prove himself, needs to play like the coach wants him to play.

4. Addison - Is he up to AFL standard?

5. Howard - A number one draft pick - must show some payback this season

6. Morris - Can he come back from a horrific injury? How long does he have left, just turned 30.

7. Cross - What a great warrior, but has the modern game caught up to him. Will be 30 in March. Can he sustain the relentless punishment he gives his body?

8. Markovic- has to make fullback his own or he is gone.

Others who will be in their 30's are Boyd and Murphy - can they go on after 2013?

Have I missed anyone?

[Cyberdoggie]

Let me be the first to kick off this player bagging session :)

1. Vez: I'm still 50/50 on him. If he gets fit enough and not be a liability physically, then he'll be ok. Huge hurdle though.

2. Gia: Will look ok and sneak in for a few goals here and there but as the season goes on and niggles come back he'll be a liability with his lack of pace and chase. Last season for him, hope it doesn't end badly.

3. Tutt: Looks fitter at last, I think he can play and he's got pace and a long kick which we need but not sure the coach values him.

4. Addison: I'm not a fan, wanders around aimlessly when he doesn't have the ball, turns like the titanic and goes to ground far too often and easily. Coach likes his endeavour so he'll stay a regular no doubt.

5. Howard: I think he's gone. Got the skills but also takes after Sam Stosur if you know what i mean.

6. Morris: Will find it easier than an onballer would with this injury but if he loses his pace he'll find it hard on the quick forwards.

7. Cross: If you can't put him in the middle then where do you put him? that's the problem. Others have and will take priority in the middle and he's a liability with his pace. Perhaps he might get tried in defence, otherwise i can't fit him in the side.

8. Williams: If he spends another year on the sidelines you would have to look at your options

9. Markovic: If he can't hold down a spot this year he'll be out the door. Talia and others are waiting and are much better than he is.

10. Grant: Another poor year would be his last. Needs to show his better form and committment.

Others: Cooney and Wood need to remind us why we value them so much.

[always right]

Let me be the first to kick off this player bagging session :)

1. Vez: I'm still 50/50 on him. If he gets fit enough and not be a liability physically, then he'll be ok. Huge hurdle though. Agree

2. Gia: Will look ok and sneak in for a few goals here and there but as the season goes on and niggles come back he'll be a liability with his lack of pace and chase. Last season for him, hope it doesn't end badly. Agree

3. Tutt: Looks fitter at last, I think he can play and he's got pace and a long kick which we need but not sure the coach values him. Agree

4. Addison: I'm not a fan, wanders around aimlessly when he doesn't have the ball, turns like the titanic and goes to ground far too often and easily. Coach likes his endeavour so he'll stay a regular no doubt. Latter part of 2012 he looked our best forward. Has definite limitations though

5. Howard: I think he's gone. Got the skills but also takes after Sam Stosur if you know what i mean. Last opportunity

6. Morris: Will find it easier than an onballer would with this injury but if he loses his pace he'll find it hard on the quick forwards. So you don't play him on quick forwards. Would still back him in against every midsized forward going around

7. Cross: If you can't put him in the middle then where do you put him? that's the problem. Others have and will take priority in the middle and he's a liability with his pace. Perhaps he might get tried in defence, otherwise i can't fit him in the side. Has successfully played off the wing pushing back into defence. In the end positions mean very little these days. If I was a defender I'd want to know Crossy was pushing back in support

8. Williams: If he spends another year on the sidelines you would have to look at your options Agree. High hopes for him to make CHF his position

9. Markovic: If he can't hold down a spot this year he'll be out the door. Talia and others are waiting and are much better than he is. Agree

10. Grant: Another poor year would be his last. Needs to show his better form and committment. Agree....reluctantly. This is the one that will burn us if another club picks him up

Others: Cooney and Wood need to remind us why we value them so much. Agree but both are keepers. Wood is safe simply because he has attributes no others in our team posess. Heneeds to show them consistently however

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Not sure about Addison. He's never going to be a star, but I think he's a solid depth player and even in a good side will still crack a few games because he's in that 23rd-28th player group. Thinking back to when we were a top four team, when fit he still played often enough.

Obviously right now and in the near future we aren't going to be a top four side, so Addison is in our best 22. I think his best position is as a forward -- he reminds me of Campbell Brown when playing for Hawthorn in 2008. Not his role to get 20 possessions and kick 3+ goals a game, rather, it's his role to disrupt defensive game plans by being a nuisance and applying mental and physical pressure. He's done this pretty well on a number of occasions, even dating back to some games that he played there under Eade. I even recall him doing well in a final -- might have been the 2010 prelim against St. Kilda. He had a pretty good second half of the year in 2012 too, so I think there's a spot for him. The thing is, even in the best sides, they have players of average ability who simply fulfill roles. You're never going to have 22+ stars.

I agree with the rest. Cooney/Wood are interesting cases for different reasons. Clearly Adam will be given every chance to get his body right, meaning he could still be searching for alternatives in another year or two. Having said that, if 2013 is another write off like his last couple, I wouldn't be surprised to see him hang up the boots. Wood improved dramatically in his first 2 or 3 years, but his progress has stagnated in the last two seasons which has been disappointing. No chance of being delisted, but he needs to perform at a higher level more consistently.

[Sedat]

I was more worried about Cross 2-3 years ago than I am now. A bit like Jude Bolton, he's actually improved in the last couple of years despite being a veteran of the AFL. It's a great credit to him that he's continued to work on improving his weaknesses and yet still maintain an elite standard with his strengths. He will be a wonderful role-model for our next-gen midfield group to be influenced by.

Can't argue with most of the other players listed. Tutt and Grant have some real tricks that are in short supply at the club, but they need to show they have the requisite intensity that the MC are expecting from all players. Vesz and Howard are virtual write-offs for me - if both have sustainable quality careers at AFL level, I will be both delighted and surprised.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

We have the thread on the Dark Horses for 2013, as well as some threads on Vez and Marko, but which players on our list will be playing for their future in 2013 and are at risk of being delisted or may retire anyway.

My list in no particular is:

1. Veszpremi - Lucky to be on the list.

2. Gia - has already indicated probably his last season.

3. Tutt - Needs to prove himself, needs to play like the coach wants him to play.

4. Addison - Is he up to AFL standard?

5. Howard - A number one draft pick - must show some payback this season

6. Morris - Can he come back from a horrific injury? How long does he have left, just turned 30.

7. Cross - What a great warrior, but has the modern game caught up to him. Will be 30 in March. Can he sustain the relentless punishment he gives his body?

8. Markovic- has to make fullback his own or he is gone.

Others who will be in their 30's are Boyd and Murphy - can they go on after 2013?

Have I missed anyone?
I am still to be convinced about Cordy and Jones as key forwards and would think that this would be a make or break year for them both.I would add Grant as well to these two due to him being so inconsistent in his endeavours. I would put Cooney into a similar bracket as Morris and Cross as still to be convinced if Cooney will survive the rigors of AFL football. It would be hard to argue about any of the eight you have nominated.

[Greystache]

I was more worried about Cross 2-3 years ago than I am now. A bit like Jude Bolton, he's actually improved in the last couple of years despite being a veteran of the AFL. It's a great credit to him that he's continued to work on improving his weaknesses and yet still maintain an elite standard with his strengths. He will be a wonderful role-model for our next-gen midfield group to be influenced by.

Can't argue with most of the other players listed. Tutt and Grant have some real tricks that are in short supply at the club, but they need to show they have the requisite intensity that the MC are expecting from all players. Vesz and Howard are virtual write-offs for me - if both have sustainable quality careers at AFL level, I will be both delighted and surprised.

Pretty much sums it up for me. I felt Cross was a hindrance and asset in equal measures in recent years, but his contribution last year was excellent. His courage and overhead marking was a huge benefit to a defence of young players, and with a move away from a play on at all costs game plan his kicking and decision making limitations don't hurt so much.

Grant and Tutt should be AFL players but I'm not hopeful, particularly on Grant. Vez and Howard are marking time.

[F'scary]

We have the thread on the Dark Horses for 2013, as well as some threads on Vez and Marko, but which players on our list will be playing for their future in 2013 and are at risk of being delisted or may retire anyway.

My list in no particular is:

1. Veszpremi - Lucky to be on the list.

2. Gia - has already indicated probably his last season.

3. Tutt - Needs to prove himself, needs to play like the coach wants him to play.

4. Addison - Is he up to AFL standard?

5. Howard - A number one draft pick - must show some payback this season

6. Morris - Can he come back from a horrific injury? How long does he have left, just turned 30.

7. Cross - What a great warrior, but has the modern game caught up to him. Will be 30 in March. Can he sustain the relentless punishment he gives his body?

8. Markovic- has to make fullback his own or he is gone.

Others who will be in their 30's are Boyd and Murphy - can they go on after 2013?

Have I missed anyone?

I would take Addison off the list. And, sorry to say, add Cooney due to his knee problem. If it goes sore on him during the season and he misses matches or is playing in a restricted capacity, then maybe it's time.

[jeemak]

My thoughts on Cross are well known, though I agree that he contributed well prior to being injured and the game plan along with a lack of forward targets making quick ball movement harder didn't expose his indecisiveness by foot last season. He's proven me wrong once, pretty sure he could do it again though he will inevitably slow down.

I differ on Howard to most as well, and will say that it's not his fault he was picked in the first round as an undeveloped talent and as such he shouldn't be judged on that in any capacity. Missing a large chunk of 2010 (he's only two seasons into his career with a decent run at it) with injury has hampered his development further and he is coming from a long way back. Needs to consolidate on some excellent performances in 2012 which were mixed with poor ones, and remove the haphazard defending this year, while getting the ball and using it effectively on a more consistent basis.

Jones and Grant need to play more consistently from a higher fitness and strength base. If they don't I fear one or both will be on the trade table or delisted. Both have talent, albeit different from eachother, and need to affect games and provide consistent options.

Vez is surely on his last chance. He is too heavy for the modern game, and needs to increase his fitness base considerably. If he's not aware of this and isn't taking the steps to become a true professional footballer he'll be a wasted talent.

I really need to see Wood play consistent football this year. He's not going to have the skill level by foot as a Murphy, or the decision making skills though he still has the ability to break lines from defense and give our forwards clean (albeit not perfect) opportunities.

[Ghost Dog]

I kept having to do a double take with Cross during 2013. His kicking was great! Probably had less clangers than some others who are touted for their boot scooting.

Libba - under the pump for obvious reasons - owes us.
Grant - Too long in the system without results for us. Maybe a change to another club, a la Josh Hill may be best.
Dickson - I love the guy, but the smallish to medium forward position is one of the hardest to do in this game. He's there to kick goals and apply pressure with only one proper preseason under his belt. It's a big ask.
Bob Murphy - Bob played well last season but will be thrown into the forward line in 2013. Can he handle the spotlight and added attention? Some cracks in his game started to show in 2012. A few awful clangers well documented. Go Bob.
Tom Williams - Some comments about the coach asking him to modify his playing style to protect his shoulders. We have stuck by him for a fair while now. He must be feeling the pressure.

I have faith in all the guys above. Even Grant - but I have a suspicion he doesn't like the jumper. Never looks ready to go to war in it.

Finally, rewind to June or July 2012, there were quite a few posters on here saying the development excuse is going to wear pretty thin after another preseason: and here we are ( almost ) Brendan is now under a fair bit of pressure to prove the sketches are going to become a masterpiece. If we continue to be smashed and capitulate, especially continuing into the second half of 2013, going to be some awkward press confs.

[EasternWest]

I kept having to do a double take with Cross during 2013. His kicking was great! Probably had less clangers than some others who are touted for their boot scooting.

While you're looking into the future GD, can you tell me how many games we'll win this year? You might spare me some heartbreak ;).

[jeemak]

While you're looking into the future GD, can you tell me how many games we'll win this year? You might spare me some heartbreak ;).

Get him to throw in the winning or losing margins as well. Might as well make a quid out of our own misery!

[Ghost Dog]

While you're looking into the future GD, can you tell me how many games we'll win this year? You might spare me some heartbreak ;).
http://www.kockicica.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/HomerSimpson36.gif

[jeemak]

Indeed. :p

[GVGjr]

Does anyone else think Howard is unfairly judged? When assessing him most make a reference to the fact that he was a first round selection which of course wasn't his decision and I'm not sure its really relevant.

I think if he was a 3rd round pick then many would be a lot more patient with him. I don't doubt that he needs to take a step forward this season but his better games are more than acceptable and he just needs to focus on consistency of performance.

I don't mind Easton Wood at all but he was drafted in the 3rd round and two years earlier than Howard and yet you rarely see his name mention as being under the pump.

Why does Easton Wood escape the same level of scrutiny that has followed Christian Howard? Is there a lot of difference in what both players have delivered so far?

We may never get genuine 'first round' value from Howard but in my opinion he shouldn't be entering this season as being under the pump just because some have an expectation on the type of performances a first round pick should be making.

[jeemak]

Agree GVGjr.

[always right]

Does anyone else think Howard is unfairly judged? When assessing him most make a reference to the fact that he was a first round selection which of course wasn't his decision and I'm not sure its really relevant.

I think if he was a 3rd round pick then many would be a lot more patient with him. I don't doubt that he needs to take a step forward this season but his better games are more than acceptable and he just needs to focus on consistency of performance.

I don't mind Easton Wood at all but he was drafted in the 3rd round and two years earlier than Howard and yet you rarely see his name mention as being under the pump.

Why does Easton Wood escape the same level of scrutiny that has followed Christian Howard? Is there a lot of difference in what both players have delivered so far?

We may never get genuine 'first round' value from Howard but in my opinion he shouldn't be entering this season as being under the pump just because some have an expectation on the type of performances a first round pick should be making.


It's a fair point but to be honest, what Wood has shown glimpses of has been exciting. Howard has yet to excite although to be fair Wood's attributes are more flamboyant than Howards.

[Ghost Dog]

Because Easton Wood can do what he was recruited for. Christian Howard's kicking has yet to show us why he was recruited as a Gillbee replacement. He is a lot harder at the ball than I thought likely. Still lots of time to show us his skills, but does anyone think he can play the Murphy / Gillbee role?

[craigsahibee]

Does anyone else think Howard is unfairly judged? When assessing him most make a reference to the fact that he was a first round selection which of course wasn't his decision and I'm not sure its really relevant.

I think if he was a 3rd round pick then many would be a lot more patient with him. I don't doubt that he needs to take a step forward this season but his better games are more than acceptable and he just needs to focus on consistency of performance.

I don't mind Easton Wood at all but he was drafted in the 3rd round and two years earlier than Howard and yet you rarely see his name mention as being under the pump.

Why does Easton Wood escape the same level of scrutiny that has followed Christian Howard? Is there a lot of difference in what both players have delivered so far?

We may never get genuine 'first round' value from Howard but in my opinion he shouldn't be entering this season as being under the pump just because some have an expectation on the type of performances a first round pick should be making.

Doesn't matter what number pick we used to get him to the club. It's the fact that when he crosses the white line he looks frightened, is too easily pushed off the ball and basically just does not look to be working hard enough. Still waiting to see this cannon of a left leg he has also.

Wood has been disappointing also, and I cringe everytime he has to think about what he has to do once he gets the footy. I think the difference between Wood and Howard is at least we know with Wood we are going to get a contest. One on One, Howard gets smashed everytime.

[EasternWest]

Does anyone else think Howard is unfairly judged? When assessing him most make a reference to the fact that he was a first round selection which of course wasn't his decision and I'm not sure its really relevant.

I think if he was a 3rd round pick then many would be a lot more patient with him. I don't doubt that he needs to take a step forward this season but his better games are more than acceptable and he just needs to focus on consistency of performance.

Certainly judging him because of his high selection is unfair, but I remain concerned about whether he's actually good enough to make it. His skills seem adequate, but he always seems to be found woefully out of position. I'm willing to persist, but if he's going to replace Gilbee (which would seem like the best place for a supposedly great kick to play) then he really needs to improve his defensive nous and competitive efforts.

[The Pie Man]

Doesn't matter what number pick we used to get him to the club. It's the fact that when he crosses the white line he looks frightened, is too easily pushed off the ball and basically just does not look to be working hard enough. Still waiting to see this cannon of a left leg he has also.

Wood has been disappointing also, and I cringe everytime he has to think about what he has to do once he gets the footy. I think the difference between Wood and Howard is at least we know with Wood we are going to get a contest. One on One, Howard gets smashed everytime.

Re: in bold - yep. He's been embarrassed at times (one exchange with Jordan Lewis was one example last season that was just awful) and would be judged on this if he was a rookie or a top 10 pick.

Agree on Wood's inconsistency - but we've seen him really contribute in parts as well - first half vs Collingwood last year for example.

I can only remember the Geelong game last year where Howard looked a part of it, and even then he wasn't a huge standout (and made some glaring errors all the same)

[Sedat]

Does anyone else think Howard is unfairly judged? When assessing him most make a reference to the fact that he was a first round selection which of course wasn't his decision and I'm not sure its really relevant.
I think there's an element of that, but from my perspective I just see a player who was drafted for his elite disposal skills who doesn't show these skills anywhere near enough in games. I also see a player drafted to become a future Gilbee defensive playmaker down back, but who actually cannot defend one-on-one to save himself. Gilbs in his prime was a terrific defender when he needed to be - as all defenders need to do from time to time no matter how attacking their role in the team. Added to that he is one-paced, so we have the complete non-package IMO. To me the only relevance about his first round selection is in the opportunity cost of missing out on better credentialed juniors who had far and away out-performed Howard at U-18 level. Drafting 18yo is an inexact science, but Howard was a classic 'reach' selection based on list needs and we overlooked better credentialed players by going down this path.

Of course I would love to be proven wrong about Howard - I'll be the first to admit it on here if he turns out to be a terrific player for us.

[bornadog]

To be fair to Wood, he has been given roles against taller opponents and really has been out muscled. Reminds me very much what the coaches asked Hargrave to do in the early part of his career.

Wood does need to be more consistent and matchups must be against the right sized opponents.

[Cyberdoggie]

To be fair to Wood, he has been given roles against taller opponents and really has been out muscled. Reminds me very much what the coaches asked Hargrave to do in the early part of his career.

Wood does need to be more consistent and matchups must be against the right sized opponents.

That is true, and i think the coach has put him in very defensive roles. I want to see him use him pace and run through the backline like Yarran.
He's easily the most athletic player we have on our list and yet we have been using him to play key defensive roles. Perhaps he's been asked as a learning process but i just hope he gets to do what he does best more, and that is run.

[soupman]

I can only remember the Geelong game last year where Howard looked a part of it, and even then he wasn't a huge standout (and made some glaring errors all the same)

I remember being very impressed with his effort against Freo as well.

[Mofra]

I think there's an element of that, but from my perspective I just see a player who was drafted for his elite disposal skills who doesn't show these skills anywhere near enough in games.
Spot on - takes the safe option far too much, which if before you consider he isn't quick and isn't a real mongrel at the contest.
He has very good endurance though by all accounts, but I suspect this is a very important year for Howard. I've seen more from Tutt, in less senior AFL gametime, than I have from Howard.

[Greystache]

Does anyone else think Howard is unfairly judged? When assessing him most make a reference to the fact that he was a first round selection which of course wasn't his decision and I'm not sure its really relevant.

I think if he was a 3rd round pick then many would be a lot more patient with him. I don't doubt that he needs to take a step forward this season but his better games are more than acceptable and he just needs to focus on consistency of performance.

I don't mind Easton Wood at all but he was drafted in the 3rd round and two years earlier than Howard and yet you rarely see his name mention as being under the pump.

Why does Easton Wood escape the same level of scrutiny that has followed Christian Howard? Is there a lot of difference in what both players have delivered so far?

We may never get genuine 'first round' value from Howard but in my opinion he shouldn't be entering this season as being under the pump just because some have an expectation on the type of performances a first round pick should be making.

I don't judge him based on where he was drafted, just on what he has shown so far. He has serious limitations, he isn't quick, doesn't take the game on, can't defend, can't square a one-on-one contest let alone win one, and takes so long to line up a kick that unless it's a stop in play he either has to chip it sideways or it ends up being a 40m mongrel. I'd be thrilled if he can become a player, I just don't see much to work with.

Wood should come under scrutiny if 2013 is another poor year. In his first few seasons he showed some good AFL attributes such as winning some really important one-on-one contests (in particular against Tippet in the wet late in the game) and some line breaking runs, but after a standout 2011 preseason he got injured and has barely shown any good signs since. He needs to get back to where he was otherwise questions need to be asked if he will make it.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I don't judge him based on where he was drafted, just on what he has shown so far. He has serious limitations, he isn't quick, doesn't take the game on, can't defend, can't square a one-on-one contest let alone win one, and takes so long to line up a kick that unless it's a stop in play he either has to chip it sideways or it ends up being a 40m mongrel. I'd be thrilled if he can become a player, I just don't see much to work with.

Wood should come under scrutiny if 2013 is another poor year. In his first few seasons he showed some good AFL attributes such as winning some really important one-on-one contests (in particular against Tippet in the wet late in the game) and some line breaking runs, but after a standout 2011 preseason he got injured and has barely shown any good signs since. He needs to get back to where he was otherwise questions need to be asked if he will make it.
Wood tends to panic too much in defence and given his pace might be better suited to a centre wing where his dash would make him a more effective player. With the expected return of Morris and the emergence of Pearce JJ and Howard it could enable Wood to be moved further afield.

[Mofra]

Wood tends to panic too much in defence and given his pace might be better suited to a centre wing where his dash would make him a more effective player. With the expected return of Morris and the emergence of Pearce JJ and Howard it could enable Wood to be moved further afield.
I think Wood is fairly unique though - he can play tall and short like Morris, has much better disposal, and provides a different type of rebound than JJ in that it's straight line, burst through and kick long (JJ plays a more Harbrow evasive style).

My concern is he doesn't get enough easy ball, and part of that may be due to lack of fitness as he couldn't get continuity of training to enable him to do that extra running into space. He showed glimpses last year and has played some good football at AFL level which puts him ahead of the Howard/Tutt/Vez types who still have a bit more to prove.

Wood is fighting for a spot in the best 22 (which he is when fully fit). Some of the other gusy are fighting for their spot on the list.

[GVGjr]

Because Easton Wood can do what he was recruited for. Christian Howard's kicking has yet to show us why he was recruited as a Gillbee replacement. He is a lot harder at the ball than I thought likely. Still lots of time to show us his skills, but does anyone think he can play the Murphy / Gillbee role?

I'm glad you raised the 'recruited for' aspect as a comparison because I'm sure Dalrymple was clear that Howard was a long term prospect and really he has had just 3 seasons and one of them was was injured for quite a while. In my estimations this shouldn't place him as being under the pump for the 2013 season.
I think he has played some good games but unfortunately it appears that his bad games are sticking in peoples minds and yes I acknowledge that he has put in some sub standard efforts.

Regarding Wood, I don't believe he was recruited as a low possession winner with at best average kicking skills but seriously 5 years on since we recruited him and he hasn't established himself in a position and averages less that 10 kicks a game. He is very much a spare parts player which is handy but I wonder if the recruitment of Lower might provide a hurdle for Wood being a regular senior player.

Howards averages are actually slightly better than Wood.

Agree that Howard has a long way to go but I don't share the views of many here that he should be entering this season as a player under the pump. It might end up like that at the end of the season but I'm still backing the club that there is more improvement they can get out of him.

I don't mind Wood at all but if Howard is on the radar after 3 years I'm suprised that Wood isn't getting a mention.

[Ghost Dog]

Regarding Wood, I don't believe he was recruited as a low possession winner with at best average kicking skills but seriously 5 years on since we recruited him and he hasn't established himself in a position and averages less that 10 kicks a game.

I don't mind Wood at all but if Howard is on the radar after 3 years I'm suprised that Wood isn't getting a mention.

The games that both have played are now so far in my memory it's hard to judge.
I remember watching Easton in the game (V collingwood ? ) where he got injured and thinking, woah he's dominating his position.In Overall, he has a physicality about him that sticks in your mind.


Perceptions can be a funny thing though. You're saying that, on paper at least, Howard performs just as well if not slightly better. I like this kind of discussion, because sometimes players get praised / maligned for reasons that are not clear on the surface.

Anyone from SA seen much of Howard in his early career and what do they make of him?

[GVGjr]

To be fair to Wood, he has been given roles against taller opponents and really has been out muscled. Reminds me very much what the coaches asked Hargrave to do in the early part of his career.

Wood does need to be more consistent and matchups must be against the right sized opponents.

I'm certainly trying to be fair to Wood but he really hasn't proven that much to me.
Spare parts players like Wood are handy in a team but I do think people have a lower expectation about him as they do for Howard.
Wood has now plenty of competition for a role in the back line than he did last season.
Morris, Talia, Young and Lower can all fill roles similar to what Wood has been doing for us but if he performs then he should be able to hold his spot.

[GVGjr]

The games that both have played are now so far in my memory it's hard to judge.
I remember watching Easton in the game (V collingwood ? ) where he got injured and thinking, woah he's dominating his position.
He has a physicality about him that sticks in your mind. Perceptions can be a funny thing though. You're saying that, on paper at least, Howard performs just as well if not slightly better. I like this kind of discussion, because sometimes players get praised / maligned for reasons that are not clear on the surface.

Yes, he does make a physical presence on the field and can do some eye catching things but there is an equally big gap between his best and worst performances as their is with Howard. One player is called out over it while for the other one its sort of accepted.

Statistics wise they actually are very similar with kicks, marks, handballs and tackles.

Having said all that, I wouldn't regard either player as being under the pump for this season.

[GVGjr]

I think there's an element of that, but from my perspective I just see a player who was drafted for his elite disposal skills who doesn't show these skills anywhere near enough in games. I also see a player drafted to become a future Gilbee defensive playmaker down back, but who actually cannot defend one-on-one to save himself. Gilbs in his prime was a terrific defender when he needed to be - as all defenders need to do from time to time no matter how attacking their role in the team. Added to that he is one-paced, so we have the complete non-package IMO. To me the only relevance about his first round selection is in the opportunity cost of missing out on better credentialed juniors who had far and away out-performed Howard at U-18 level. Drafting 18yo is an inexact science, but Howard was a classic 'reach' selection based on list needs and we overlooked better credentialed players by going down this path.

Of course I would love to be proven wrong about Howard - I'll be the first to admit it on here if he turns out to be a terrific player for us.

Thanks Sedat, really enjoyed reading that and I especially enjoyed the highlighted section.
Fully agreed.

Actually all the discussions so far on this thread have been very interesting to read and its great so see all the points put across in the manner they have been.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Yes, he does make a physical presence on the field and can do some eye catching things but there is an equally big gap between his best and worst performances as their is with Howard. One player is called out over it while for the other one its sort of accepted.

Statistics wise they actually are very similar with kicks, marks, handballs and tackles.

Having said all that, I wouldn't regard either player as being under the pump for this season.

Some good logical perspective in your posts GVG. Hard to supply anything concrete, but I think Wood has at least demonstrated that he is capable of winning pivotal one-on-one contests, capable of breaking the lines and capable of influencing a game of football. At this stage, we haven't seen Howard show these signs. In the few games he played well (v Geelong), he received a lot of easy ball out in space so I think the fact that Geelong paid him little attention helped him in that regard. Whenever Howard has been asked to defend, he has been quite awful to say the least.

If he is to make it, I think Howard has to play on a wing and start using his left boot to our advantage.

FWIW I think both of these players should be under pressure to start performing. They've had enough time in the system to show something on a more consistent basis.

[jeemak]

Accepting that developing players all have weaknesses that need improving early on, and long term deficiencies that will always be exposed throughout their careers is key. We don't have any perfect players at our club, nor players that haven't had to keep improving in certain areas.

Howard needs to ensure that throughout his career the benefit of his strengths outweigh the downside of his weaknesses. With his endurance and kicking ability, as well as his increasing toughness around the ball he has some attributes that will hold him in good stead throughout his career. What he really needs to do is ensure they improve consistently, all the while continually working on his weaknesses which as far as I can tell involve positioning, remaining competitive in all types of contests and his ability to negate different types of players.

I understand why posters see Howard's weaknesses as being of great concern, though what needs to be admitted is that they're not the type of weaknesses that can be ironed out after three seasons of senior football. Potentially with time they can, and as long as he improves on them, as well as his overall game (which he has done to this point) then he should be given time.

He'll still be 21 when he starts the 2013 season.

[LongWait]

I think there's an element of that, but from my perspective I just see a player who was drafted for his elite disposal skills who doesn't show these skills anywhere near enough in games. I also see a player drafted to become a future Gilbee defensive playmaker down back, but who actually cannot defend one-on-one to save himself. Gilbs in his prime was a terrific defender when he needed to be - as all defenders need to do from time to time no matter how attacking their role in the team. Added to that he is one-paced, so we have the complete non-package IMO. To me the only relevance about his first round selection is in the opportunity cost of missing out on better credentialed juniors who had far and away out-performed Howard at U-18 level. Drafting 18yo is an inexact science, but Howard was a classic 'reach' selection based on list needs and we overlooked better credentialed players by going down this path.

Of course I would love to be proven wrong about Howard - I'll be the first to admit it on here if he turns out to be a terrific player for us.

I wish to God you are off the mark, but alas, I can't help but agree with you. Howard is really going to hurt us if he doesn't make our best 22. At 21 years of age he is still young, but time is fast running out for him.

[Ghost Dog]

Poise is perhaps what both of them lack. I look at a player like Luke Dahlhaus and what a cool head under pressure for a young guy. A little of Griffen about him how he responds, not reacts under pressure; always eyes down, searching out an option.
Cuts quite a figure with the athletic prowess does Easton. But the panic bomb out of half back has caused me to drop the F bomb in frustration at times.

[jeemak]

Poise is perhaps what both of them lack. I look at a player like Luke Dahlhaus and what a cool head under pressure for a young guy. A little of Griffen about him how he responds, not reacts under pressure; always eyes down, searching out an option.
Cuts quite a figure with the athletic prowess does Easton. But the panic bomb out of half back has caused me to drop the F bomb in frustration at times.

Wood was a smokey of his draft. Went to school with O'Keefe and was noticed by Clayton as O'Keefe was watched. Dahlhaus was overlooked due to physical stature and a tendency towards duffing short kicks (happy to be corrected on that, of course).

Dahl has always been a natural footballer, and we were lucky to have to have gotten him when we did. Wood wasn't, and it has always been accepted he'd take some time, the inconsistency in performance has backed that up.

I suppose what GVGjr is a little surprised by is the acceptance of deficiencies shown by Wood, which include poor decision making, sometimes questionable defending, poor disposal (by hand and foot) and a lack of ball getting ability after five years, compared to the deficiencies Howard possesses and has shown after three years.

I get equally as frustrated as the next guy when Wood burst off half back like a headless chook and kicks it forward off his knee.

[Remi Moses]

Agree with above points on Wood.
He sometimes to me either tries to do to much or kicks poorly.
Positive is he takes the game on, but every time he breaks through he gets hurt:(
My views on Howard are the same as GV and Jeemak, he's still got time on his side.
Has to find something in between his best and worst. Dahlhaus hasproved that recruiting kids isn't an exact science.

[GVGjr]

NBP made mention of Cordy so is he a player that should be under some pressure entering this season? We have been super patient with him but is 2013 the season he must take a step forward.

I'm thinking if we had one more ruckman/forward on the list than we do then Cordy would be under the microscope.

[Mantis]

I'm thinking if we had one more ruckman/forward on the list than we do then Cordy would be under the microscope.

We have Minson, Campbell, Cordy and Roughead... So perhaps the MC saw a problem arising and are trying to rectify it by moving Roughy back.

[bornadog]

NBP made mention of Cordy so is he a player that should be under some pressure entering this season? We have been super patient with him but is 2013 the season he must take a step forward.

Yes we have been patient with Cordy, but then again the big guys do take longer to mature. I agree that this year he must now start to show his potential and do a Tippett and become more than just a big man standing in the goal square.

[stefoid]

I think at the moment its not on-field performance that will get guys sacked, but general attitude. Mac will keep anyone around who is trying their guts out in preference to someone with potential but isnt doing the right things.

[GVGjr]

We have Minson, Campbell, Cordy and Roughead... So perhaps the MC saw a problem arising and are trying to rectify it by moving Roughy back.

That's the thing that interests me. Is McCartney really saying that Roughead has what it takes to be a good key defender or is he saying that for team balance that move suits us?
I'd lean towards the latter.

[GVGjr]

Yes we have been patient with Cordy, but then again the big guys do take longer to mature. I agree that this year he must now start to show his potential and do a Tippett and become more than just a big man standing in the goal square.

If Cordy can't start to be a factor as a forward this year and to provide some good bursts as a ruckman it's going to be hard to justify the level of patience we have given him.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If Cordy can't start to be a factor as a forward this year and to provide some good bursts as a ruckman it's going to be hard to justify the level of patience we have given him.

The three year contract we gave him was/is ridiculous.

Hopefully he can start to perform to the level required, though.

[Go_Dogs]

That's the thing that interests me. Is McCartney really saying that Roughead has what it takes to be a good key defender or is he saying that for team balance that move suits us?
I'd lean towards the latter.

I think you're certainly right at least initially, but I feel after he showed a bit down there it has become a bit more balanced in that it fits need and he's a good chance to make it down there.

With the increase in monster forwards, which will be a continuing trend (Tippett, Daniher) having a 200cm defender may soon be something all teams want. I'm pretty positive about the move at the moment but this year will tell the story.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

That's the thing that interests me. Is McCartney really saying that Roughead has what it takes to be a good key defender or is he saying that for team balance that move suits us?
I'd lean towards the latter.

Yours is a good summation. The loss of Williams in 2012 for long periods and now Lake in 2013, simply shows up our lack of quality key defenders, strongly suggesting that Roughead who has the ability to play first ruck in the future will once again find himself starting in defence.

[Hotdog60]

Yours is a good summation. The loss of Williams in 2012 for long periods and now Lake in 2013, simply shows up our lack of quality key defenders, strongly suggesting that Roughead who has the ability to play first ruck in the future will once again find himself starting in defense.

Depending on how Roughy goes, his days of being 1st ruck may have passed. If he can cement a spot as the key defender he's value would be great in that position than in the ruck which we can cover with Minson, Cordy and Campbell.

We have recruited a lot of hard nosed in and under types who win their own ball, maybe we can setup in the centre to a losing ruck if the game goes that way.

It will be a interesting season and I can't wait.

[Greystache]

That's the thing that interests me. Is McCartney really saying that Roughead has what it takes to be a good key defender or is he saying that for team balance that move suits us?
I'd lean towards the latter.

Personally I'm leaning more towards the former. He's not going to be suited to play at full back against every opponent, but more and more teams have key forwards that are ruckman/forward types which Roughead could be an ideal match up for, eg Tippett, Clarke, Cox/Naitanui, Patton, Vickery, Kreuzer.

I also like that Roughead is actually quite a good field kick which is a bonus giving his goal kicking is horrendous.

[Cyberdoggie]

If Cordy can't start to be a factor as a forward this year and to provide some good bursts as a ruckman it's going to be hard to justify the level of patience we have given him.

I'd love that to be the case but looking at him currently he still doesn't seem to have any muscle definition at all.
He struggled last year because he just couldn't compete with anyone on a strength basis.
Ayce couldn't hold his ground and was pushed around like a rag doll at times. If he's going to be that contested marking forward option for us then core strength should be his main focus.

[bornadog]

I'd love that to be the case but looking at him currently he still doesn't seem to have any muscle definition at all.
He struggled last year because he just couldn't compete with anyone on a strength basis.
Ayce couldn't hold his ground and was pushed around like a rag doll at times. If he's going to be that contested marking forward option for us then core strength should be his main focus.

I think Hawkins is a good example here. Roughead struggled with Hawkins last year in the strength department, but Hawkins was struggling when he was younger as well. Roughead's strength will improve every year as he matures - same with Cordy.