What is Ahead for the Dogs in 2013

[Bulldog Joe]

As I posted in the training thread, I have reached a point of apprehensive excitement.

The NAB Cup may give us some indication but it is only glorified practice.

The season proper has given us a better fixture with a bye after Darwin. We have 6 day breaks with travel as follows
Geelong (rd 5)after Adelaide
North Melbourne (rd 7) from Perth against the Eagles

We also play our first 3 games at Etihad.

This is a much better schedule than last year.

Could wins in the early games set us on a path where we could compete for a finals spot.

[bornadog]

Prediction for me is lucky to win 6 games.

[Eastdog]

I like your optimism Bulldog Joe. I hope we can get a good start to the season to get some confidence but with the quality of our list at the moment we won't be finals bound this year. Having said that I also think we won't finish too close to the bottom as some have suggested and we may surprise a few teams.

[Dazza]

Tipping 5 wins.

[AndrewP6]

I like the optimism, but I can't echo the sentiments unfortunately. I think we'll win around 6,maybe 7 games. If everything goes right.

[LostDoggy]

8-11 games if 2 of Cordy, Jones, Roughy, Grant step up a level significantly
7-8 if only 1 of them gets there
5 or less if none of them improve

Interesting year despite any finals action or lack thereof
Comfortable our midfield has a future. Forward and backlines both very much watch this space.

[Hotdog60]

We'll do one better than Essendon in 2000:p

[LostDoggy]

We'll do one better than Essendon in 2000:p

Nothing could EVER be better than what we did to Essendon in 2000.

[Eastdog]

Nothing could EVER be better than what we did to Essendon in 2000.

That was a memorable match as we beat the all conquering Essendon in 2000.

[SonofScray]

6 wins would be a solid year for us. A winning season, immense given where we were last year. I want premierships and everyone has a chance at this time of year but I'm expecting somewhere between 4 and 8 wins.

[LostDoggy]

Nothing could EVER be better than what we did to Essendon in 2000.

A Premiership would be a close second?

[Go_Dogs]

My view is we can win between 5 - 9 games all going well, but it's not the win loss ratio that I'm most concerned with.

For mine, if we can see improvement in our players 23 years and under, especially in the talls category, and eradicate the massive thrashing from our repertoire whilst being consistently competitive for the duration of games, that will be a great outcome.

Realistically we appear to still be a few years off, but as Superdog said above, if two or more of Jones, Roughead, Cordy and Grant really improve and a few of the other new players (Goodes, Lower, Stevens and Young) as well as a few of the kids developing quickly, we may be some sort of chance to turn it around a bit quicker and potentially push for finals. Highly unlikely all of those things will happen, but sometimes miracles occur.

[Remi Moses]

Think we'll win 5 to 6 games.
Just like more of that word Competitiveness this year.

[Remi Moses]

Nothing could EVER be better than what we did to Essendon in 2000.

Umm I think a flag might be better:eek:

[The Underdog]

I think we'll struggle to get wins but I think the key is to be competitive through 4 quarters. 7 wins is probably the best case scenario given our draw (how do we finish 4th last and only get GWS & Gold Coast once?) 3 wins is probably the bottom end but I think we'll be better than that.
Notice in the Hun today 3 hacks took the under on 4 wins for us.

[Greystache]

Betstar has us winning 4 games


WESTERN BULLDOGS
Betstar line: 4 wins

Clark: Under ($1.90)
Only play Gold Coast, Port Adelaide and GWS once each. Adam Cooney is up and about but games against Melbourne will determine whether the Dogs cover the line this year.

Edmund: Under ($1.90)
You can surround your club with football royalty, but come Round 12, they'll be asking Scarlett and Mooney to pull the boots on. Lake leaves a hole they can't yet fill and for all the promise shown by the likes of Wallis and Libba, the list looks thin on the ground.

Landsberger: Under ($1.90)
A horror draw makes life tough, but wins-losses aside, the future is bright at the kennel.

Link to all teams (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/afl/afl-2013-win-predictions-will-your-team-beat-the-line/story-e6frexx0-1226566213623)

[Greystache]

Personally I think we'll win 6-8 games, with a couple of runs of back to back wins.

The additional experience in the forward line of Murphy and hopefully Williams will assist greatly with our ability to move the ball and generate scores. The midfield should be highly competitive against all teams, the big unknown will be the defence but I've been really impressed by what I've seen this preseason of Talia and think he can do a solid job on the bigger bodied forwards, and I think Roughead will do very well against the ruckman/forward types. We just need improvement from the like of JJ and Wood, with some input from mature recruits like Goodes and Lower.

[Cyberdoggie]

At this stage 6-8 wins.

If we actually start to improve and show a bit of the drive we had against Geelong and Collingwood then it may even be more but i'm yet to be convinced that it will 'just happen'.

I have doubts on our forward line and now our defence looks very in-experienced and taking Murphy out of there robs us of line breaking ability. I think after a while we will get bogged down and the young kids will find it difficult when the opposition puts pressure on us across half back. Not convinced we have the foot skills to move the ball well enough yet. Endeavour will only get us so far.

I'm not giving up yet though, i'm still very excited about this season and i'm just hoping we don't see anything like we saw in the second half of last year. I want to see some tactical moves from the coach, enough of the learning experiences that get you flogged.
Let's try and win some games or at least be competitive.

[EasternWest]

6 wins.

But I'm expecting 14-16 games where we show consistency in performance.

[Eastdog]

At this stage 6-8 wins.

If we actually start to improve and show a bit of the drive we had against Geelong and Collingwood then it may even be more but i'm yet to be convinced that it will 'just happen'.

I have doubts on our forward line and now our defence looks very in-experienced and taking Murphy out of there robs us of line breaking ability. I think after a while we will get bogged down and the young kids will find it difficult when the opposition puts pressure on us across half back. Not convinced we have the foot skills to move the ball well enough yet. Endeavour will only get us so far.

I'm not giving up yet though, i'm still very excited about this season and i'm just hoping we don't see anything like we saw in the second half of last year. I want to see some tactical moves from the coach, enough of the learning experiences that get you flogged.
Let's try and win some games or at least be competitive.

That's another thing too the second half fadeouts. We need to make sure those don't happen because in the first half of some of those games last season we were competitive and quite close to the other team.

[Remi Moses]

Betstar has us winning 4 games


WESTERN BULLDOGS
Betstar line: 4 wins

Clark: Under ($1.90)
Only play Gold Coast, Port Adelaide and GWS once each. Adam Cooney is up and about but games against Melbourne will determine whether the Dogs cover the line this year.

Edmund: Under ($1.90)
You can surround your club with football royalty, but come Round 12, they'll be asking Scarlett and Mooney to pull the boots on. Lake leaves a hole they can't yet fill and for all the promise shown by the likes of Wallis and Libba, the list looks thin on the ground.

Landsberger: Under ($1.90)
A horror draw makes life tough, but wins-losses aside, the future is bright at the kennel.

Link to all teams (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/afl/afl-2013-win-predictions-will-your-team-beat-the-line/story-e6frexx0-1226566213623)

Bit of a cheap shot from Edmund. Sam Landsberger is okay, Ralph Malph is a peanut.
Should set up a market for how many more times they get trumped by "The Age" in 2013.

[chef]

A Premiership would be a close second?

A premiership would be a million times better.

[DragzLS1]

Competitive in most games and 1 big upset where all our kids step up! That will have them talking ;)

[LostDoggy]

It's the last year we have GWS and GC covered for sure. We still have Melb twice and Port covered. We will win our first three and be buzzing, Is there a market for us to be on top after three :)? 7 and 3 at the bye. The usual 6 day break for us against the Cats is the difference there. Both Tiger games inside so there can be two. I think we can push for 10 maybe 11. We can be on 10 after 15 then collapse with a tough run home. We must limit the big losses, percentage will be everything come August. Good year coming up I feel.

In saying that if we struggle early on and finish tired again it could get messy.

I'm going with my first thoughts.

[boydogs]

Definitely a rebuilding year for the club, huge turmoil in defense and a new group that needs to learn to play together before we can hope to compete with the top sides.

Tipping 9 wins & 12th spot

[Ghost Dog]

9 wins is not too bad.

4 quarters of footy comes first. Just being able to run out a game.

[Remi Moses]

9 wins is not too bad.

4 quarters of footy comes first. Just being able to run out a game.

Not to bad? Be pleasantly surprised if we won 9 games.

[Ghost Dog]

Agreed.

[LostDoggy]

9 wins is not too bad.

4 quarters of footy comes first. Just being able to run out a game.

Agreed. Looking out for 110% effort across the season and a young team starting to grasp a game plan.

[always right]

Sure I want to see wins but how many.....doesn't really concern me. I want to see a competitive effort for four quarters and clear signs that we are on an upward curve that will continue over the next few years..

[The Bulldogs Bite]

14th -- 5 or 6 wins.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

For me, wins will not be the barometer to measure us by this year. It's all about being able to see progression and increasing cohesion amongst players as well as the coaching staff.
We have turned over a significant portion of our list, and our backline in particular is a very inexperienced unit. I expect we will see many a thumping simply due to our lack of cohesion down back. I can handle this for another season, so long as I can see our kids improve over the course of the year.

I really would like to see Jones, Grant, Cordy in particular show some consistent form as a forward line. If one or two of these don't show significant improvement it's going to make for a very frustrating year and I suspect make our rebuild take even longer.

I would also like to see some signs that our coaching staff have the basis for a robust gameplan that in time will stand up. I wasn't sold last year on what I saw, but I'm prepared to accept it may not be representative of everything the coach wants to set up over the long term. To date McCartney has shown in all other aspects that he is focusing on the long term. To that end he may not have really had the personnel at his disposal to implement his full strategy and as such he may've focused on a very simplified version based on a couple of key elements.

So, to that end I'd like to see throughout the year some sustained periods of games where McCartney's gameplan works cohesively, giving us a preview so to speak, of what it might like be once our guys have the mature bodies, skills and fitness to carry it out for 4 Qtrs.

[Ghost Dog]

I would also like to see some signs that our coaching staff have the basis for a robust gameplan that in time will stand up. I wasn't sold last year on what I saw, but I'm prepared to accept it may not be representative of everything the coach wants to set up over the long term. To date McCartney has shown in all other aspects that he is focusing on the long term. To that end he may not have really had the personnel at his disposal to implement his full strategy and as such he may've focused on a very simplified version based on a couple of key elements.


This is why I was surprised to read some here think the coach is getting off lightly on the boards. I seem to recall quite a bit of criticism last season.

[The Cowshed]

If we lose games by 10 goals and the cockroach is happy because we won the 'hard ball gets', to quote a former coach, I'll spew!

[Remi Moses]

If we get getting pantsed the criticism will grow.
If people see improvement regardless of wins they won't be over critical.
Probably a silly thing, but I'm just looking at effort and a semblance of a game plan opposed to wins.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Sure I want to see wins but how many.....doesn't really concern me. I want to see a competitive effort for four quarters and clear signs that we are on an upward curve that will continue over the next few years..
That'll do me. Those upward curves are second only to a woman's.

[Eastdog]

that'll do me. Those upward curves are second only to a woman's.

Nice one :D

[F'scary]

I have completed a "gut-feel" probability of winning each game estimate (see attached) which I did last year as well.

My outcome is

8-9 wins

12th or 13th on the ladder based on average AFL final ladder positions for 2007-2011*.

When I did this exercise last year (and I have just crudely rehashed that spreadsheet in the attachment), I came up with 10-11 wins and a 9th finish. How embarrassment. So I was much more conservative this time.

* more like 14-15 due to the weakness of the expansion teams - just about everyone beat them.

[bornadog]

If we lose games by 10 goals and the cockroach is happy because we won the 'hard ball gets', to quote a former coach, I'll spew!

I doubt anyone is going to be happy with an outcome like that. Last year Geelong and Swans proved you don't have to win the contested positions to win the game.

[GVGjr]

IMO, 6 to 8 wins is achievable and what I would like to measure us against. I think we will be benefit by having the likes of Stevens and Lower on board but losing Lake is a huge loss for us.

It goes without saying that the blowouts must be minimal.

Keeping the scoreboard ticking over is imperative and I think one of the biggest challenges for us.

[LostDoggy]

Not sure if anyone watches the 7pm project? But it was asked on there why Gillard would call an election in the middle of football finals, the response was....."well she is a Bulldogs supporter!"

Good point though, maybe Gillard doesn't expect much "ahead for the dogs in 2013" :)

[Hotdog60]

IMO, 6 to 8 wins is achievable and what I would like to measure us against. I think we will be benefit by having the likes of Stevens and Lower on board but losing Lake is a huge loss for us.

It goes without saying that the blowouts must be minimal.

Keeping the scoreboard ticking over is imperative and I think one of the biggest challenges for us.

I wonder if Lake will be a loss, I don't have any stats and maybe another woofer can supply them. How many contested marks or spoils did Brian win in 2012, it seemed to me that Brian picked up a lot of possessions floating loose in the back line and picking up easy marks and kicks.

I don't want to knock the man he has been a great player for us but has he been that good in the last couple of years and if he was still with us would he be 100% committed to rebuilding the team.

I think time has caught up with him and I will take interest in how he goes at Hawthorn. If he has a good year and ends up in their top 10 and makes AA then he has been a loss but I wonder if he still has what he did.

[GVGjr]

I wonder if Lake will be a loss, I don't have any stats and maybe another woofer can supply them. How many contested marks or spoils did Brian win in 2012, it seemed to me that Brian picked up a lot of possessions floating loose in the back line and picking up easy marks and kicks.

I don't want to knock the man he has been a great player for us but has he been that good in the last couple of years and if he was still with us would he be 100% committed to rebuilding the team.

I think time has caught up with him and I will take interest in how he goes at Hawthorn. If he has a good year and ends up in their top 10 and makes AA then he has been a loss but I wonder if he still has what he did.


Your analysis and thoughts are good but there is no getting around that we would be a better side if he was still with us. He might be slowing down a bit but he is still one of the best in the league

[Hotdog60]

Your analysis and thoughts are good but there is no getting around that we would be a better side if he was still with us. He might be slowing down a bit but he is still one of the best in the league

Granted, I suppose we will need our midfield to limit the supply of the opposition to take some of the pressure off our backs. We have hired a bunch of hard nosed ball winners maybe our game plan is to win the centre and keep moving it forward.

So is there more pressure on our forwards this year instead of the backs?

[BulldogBelle]

Betfair is offering 25 to 1 for us to make the top 8 in 2013. I grabbed a bit of that.

For the Brownlow, Matthew Boyd and Ryan Griffen are 120-1, and Cooney and Higgins will get 200-1.

Seems as though not too many people share our confidence.

This is the best batch of kids I have ever seen, I am excited and look forward to the forthcoming season with great interest.

[Ghost Dog]

Your analysis and thoughts are good but there is no getting around that we would be a better side if he was still with us. He might be slowing down a bit but he is still one of the best in the league

I don't disagree, but he was on a big wage though wasn't he. That money can go into our footy department.

[DragzLS1]

Betfair is offering 25 to 1 for us to make the top 8 in 2013. I grabbed a bit of that.

For the Brownlow, Matthew Boyd and Ryan Griffen are 120-1, and Cooney and Higgins will get 200-1.

Seems as though not too many people share our confidence.

This is the best batch of kids I have ever seen, I am excited and look forward to the forthcoming season with great interest.

I'm getting on boydy and griffen. With a fitter cooney possibly taking the hard tags it may release griffen to unleash like he did against Sydney ;) was I excited watching him that game which would have raised a few eyebrows

[GVGjr]

I don't disagree, but he was on a big wage though wasn't he. That money can go into our footy department.

In the end it probably provided us with a lot of salary cap options. The trade could fall under the short tern loss for long term gain category.

[LostDoggy]

Your analysis and thoughts are good but there is no getting around that we would be a better side if he was still with us. He might be slowing down a bit but he is still one of the best in the league

Disagree strongly on both points. Sometimes there is more to consider than just playing ability. In Brian's case, he may still have something to offer as a 30 year old, but nobody would argue that he is in decline - and that decline might be more pronounced than some anticipate. Of greater importance, at team level, is the contribution individuals make to the team. Even those with the longest bows would not describe Brian as team player; he frustrated Rocket and he frustrated McCartney and was rated by very few in the group as a good bloke. Don't be surprised if Hawthorn are already viewing the trade coup as a poisoned chalice. It doesn't matter how good you were, if you're on your last legs and you're not a team player, you're not going to add much to the team, any team. I'd much rather see Roughy being groomed for FB and Moz playing elder statesman than put up with a fading Brian running his own show. Let's look to a real future, one with silverware in it, instead of taking a short term view and clinging to the glory days. Mac and the high quality group he's put together are grooming our young side for sustained success. Brian Lake was never going to be part of that process.

[AndrewP6]

he frustrated Rocket and he frustrated McCartney and was rated by very few in the group as a good bloke.

And you know this how??


Let's look to a real future, one with silverware in it, instead of taking a short term view and clinging to the glory days

Glory days?

[Ghost Dog]

Disagree strongly on both points. Sometimes there is more to consider than just playing ability. In Brian's case, he may still have something to offer as a 30 year old, but nobody would argue that he is in decline - and that decline might be more pronounced than some anticipate. Of greater importance, at team level, is the contribution individuals make to the team. Even those with the longest bows would not describe Brian as team player; he frustrated Rocket and he frustrated McCartney and was rated by very few in the group as a good bloke. Don't be surprised if Hawthorn are already viewing the trade coup as a poisoned chalice. It doesn't matter how good you were, if you're on your last legs and you're not a team player, you're not going to add much to the team, any team. I'd much rather see Roughy being groomed for FB and Moz playing elder statesman than put up with a fading Brian running his own show. Let's look to a real future, one with silverware in it, instead of taking a short term view and clinging to the glory days. Mac and the high quality group he's put together are grooming our young side for sustained success. Brian Lake was never going to be part of that process.

Are you hinting at Polo-gate here RWB54? :D

[lemmon]

Looking at it purely and simply from a football perspective will Brian Lake be a better fullback during 2013 than Roughy/Talia? The answer would have to be yes. In that regard its a loss and weakens us on-field. May very well help down the road but he is still in the best half dozen key backs in the league and we are asking too much of kids in Roughy and Talia or limited performers in Markovic and Austin if we expect them to do the same job

[Remi Moses]

It's going to be short term pain for long term gain.
Lake's not in the top 6 defenders now, yes he was in 2010.
There's a few gone past himIMHO.

[Ghost Dog]

Looking at it purely and simply from a football perspective will Brian Lake be a better fullback during 2013 than Roughy/Talia? The answer would have to be yes. In that regard its a loss and weakens us on-field. May very well help down the road but he is still in the best half dozen key backs in the league and we are asking too much of kids in Roughy and Talia or limited performers in Markovic and Austin if we expect them to do the same job

Nobody can say that. Perhaps likely, but Brian looks out of shape at the moment and mentally not with it.

[LostDoggy]

Your analysis and thoughts are good but there is no getting around that we would be a better side if he was still with us. He might be slowing down a bit but he is still one of the best in the league

I agree that we would be a “better” side in 2013 with him, but that's half the problem — he was such a core part of the defense that his departure at any stage, whether now or in a few years' time, was always going to hurt us —*!and I'd rather hurt now.

[always right]

Looking at it purely and simply from a football perspective will Brian Lake be a better fullback during 2013 than Roughy/Talia? The answer would have to be yes. In that regard its a loss and weakens us on-field. May very well help down the road but he is still in the best half dozen key backs in the league and we are asking too much of kids in Roughy and Talia or limited performers in Markovic and Austin if we expect them to do the same job

You're possibly right but I think Lake was showing significant signs of deterioration last year. For every one on one marking dual he won, there were probably three or four contests where he was unable (or unwilling) to go with his opponent on the lead. Lake will be an asset for Hawthorn as long as he is able to remain on the bigger players who like to move in a 20 meter arc.

I have no doubt we will have a little short term pain without him but I think some are overstating how severe this will be. I have absolutely no doubt the club made the right decision.

Regarding an earlier comment about him not being popular with team mates, I have no way of knowing this, but the comment about the coach's view of him is spot on.

[Ozza]

Just in regards to the win/loss ratio - and the notion of just limiting the blowouts.

Unfortunately the reality is - that if we aren't winning games, the spirit of the group will be affected and some blowouts are inevitable.

I'm not really fussed with the end of year ladder position - but it is very important for us to win regualrly enough to keep the mood of the group up. I certainly wouldn't like to see us win any less than 6 or 7 games - or we could be in for some pain against the good teams.

[AndrewP6]

Nobody can say that. Perhaps likely, but Brian looks out of shape at the moment and mentally not with it.

Really? I've thought he's actually slimmed down and looks in good nick.

[Ghost Dog]

Was a massive call by the club to trade him. They copped a fair bit from supporters.

[w3design]

It's going to be short term pain for long term gain.
Lake's not in the top 6 defenders now, yes he was in 2010.
There's a few gone past himIMHO.

So exactly who is it you think had gone past him ???

Right at present I would have thought the league has a serious dearth of quality creative key defenders.
Yes, no doubt Brian was not the player he was 3 years ago, however neither are a number of other key defenders who have been mainstays of the league over the last decade. Some have recently retired, while some others are also in the decline phase of their careers.

Few of the up and comers have become stars in defence, and if there were so many, surely a wealthy club like Hawthorn would have targeted one of them rather than an ageing and apparently declining Lake.

He has been a good servant of the club over a lot of years, and I for one do not begrudge him his chance at a flag, given he was unlikely to be our first choice FB in 2013.

I accept that in our phase of renewal we needed to blood replacements, but I always find it sad to see long time Doggies traded out. That is not to say I see this as a wrong decision, merely a perhaps necessary but still sad one.

I just hope it works out to be for the best for both the Dogs and Brian.

[bornadog]

Looking at it purely and simply from a football perspective will Brian Lake be a better fullback during 2013 than Roughy/Talia? The answer would have to be yes. In that regard its a loss and weakens us on-field. May very well help down the road but he is still in the best half dozen key backs in the league and we are asking too much of kids in Roughy and Talia or limited performers in Markovic and Austin if we expect them to do the same job

And he would have been a great on field role model. Why have we continually in our history dumped our champion players.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Was a massive call by the club to trade him. They copped a fair bit from supporters.

I was angry when I read about it on the train at the time.

Upon reflection, I don't mind that we traded him, but it frustrates me that we coughed up pick 28 and did it all on day one of trade month.

[Remi Moses]

So exactly who is it you think had gone past him ???

Right at present I would have thought the league has a serious dearth of quality creative key defenders.
Yes, no doubt Brian was not the player he was 3 years ago, however neither are a number of other key defenders who have been mainstays of the league over the last decade. Some have recently retired, while some others are also in the decline phase of their careers.

Few of the up and comers have become stars in defence, and if there were so many, surely a wealthy club like Hawthorn would have targeted one of them rather than an ageing and apparently declining Lake.

He has been a good servant of the club over a lot of years, and I for one do not begrudge him his chance at a flag, given he was unlikely to be our first choice FB in 2013.

I accept that in our phase of renewal we needed to blood replacements, but I always find it
sad to see long time Doggies traded out. That is not to say I see this as a wrong decision, merely a perhaps necessary but still sad one.

I just hope it works out to be for the best for both the Dogs and Brian.

Don't understand your logic ? You agree with me that Lake isn't the same player he was 3 years ( that's a given) defenders who have gone past Brian or are about to
Ben Reid, Daniel Tallia , Darren Glass , Ted Richards, Harry Taylor even Luke Mcpharlin . Brian's gone , yeah it's sad but a good result for both parties.

[Remi Moses]

I was angry when I read about it on the train at the time.

Upon reflection, I don't mind that we traded him, but it frustrates me that we coughed up pick 28 and did it all on day one of trade month.

We coughed up pick 28 but we lost his salary.
You have to give a little to gain a little.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We coughed up pick 28 but we lost his salary.
You have to give a little to gain a little.

We gave up a lot.

And on day one.

But this topic has been done to death, hopefully O'Brien is a spud, Lake declines whilst Hrovat wins three brownlow medals ;)

[Ghost Dog]

Considering almost everyone on these boards predict we will win only 4-8 games ( a few optimists say 9 ) I don't see how it's a loss. Brian would not have changed the likely win loss ration much. And we would have lost him for sweet FA at the end of the season, same as 2012. We came away slightly ahead in my estimation. But little things count in professional sport. A lot will depend on how Hrovat goes ( god that name is giving me trouble! )
We had to do it on day one as nobody else wanted him.

[The Underdog]

And he would have been a great on field role model. Why have we continually in our history dumped our champion players.

Being a naturally talented player with a couple of elite skills doesn't make him an on field role model. It makes him an asset that improves the quality of the team but I'm not sure role model, on or off field, were a big part of Brian's skillset.
I'm also not convinced that this narrative you keep pushing of us treating our champions shabbily bears out. I don't imagine we are worse than others and in recent times Grant, Darcy, Johnson & Smith all went out the right way & the only issue with West was that he was the only one who didn't know he was finished.

[Go_Dogs]

And he would have been a great on field role model.

Not convinced on this one. From what we know of Lake over his career, he very much did his own thing on the field - when he was at his best it was fine because he genuinely won most contests he was in. His inability to play to instruction though would've been the worst thing in a developing backline where the coaches are trying to get youngsters to play in a certain way. Look up and see the 'leader' following his own agenda wouldn't have helped, especially if Lake was unable to dominate the way he did back in the 2007-2010 period.

Hopefully Morris can be that leader down back, because I couldn't think of a better person I'd want our young defenders learning off.

[Remi Moses]

We gave up a lot.

And on day one.

But this topic has been done to death, hopefully O'Brien is a spud, Lake declines whilst Hrovat wins three brownlow medals ;)

That would be nice:D

[Remi Moses]

Considering almost everyone on these boards predict we will win only 4-8 games ( a few optimists say 9 ) I don't see how it's a loss. Brian would not have changed the likely win loss ration much. And we would have lost him for sweet FA at the end of the season, same as 2012. We came away slightly ahead in my estimation. But little things count in professional sport. A lot will depend on how Hrovat goes ( god that name is giving me trouble! )
We had to do it on day one as nobody else wanted him.

Exactly, this board would be in meltdown in October when we got a third rounder for a 32 y/o.
His heart wasn't in it.

[Remi Moses]

And he would have been a great on field role model. Why have we continually in our history dumped our champion players.

Wrong. Dumped players in the 70's because we were broke.
Football clubs exist for an eternity , and careers don't.
Every club has traded or forced retirements on their players.
It's just reality

[lemmon]

And he would have been a great on field role model. Why have we continually in our history dumped our champion players.

Not sure how true that is in recent history, Johnson, West, Grant, even guys like Eagleton, Hahn and Gilbee were given a year too long

[Greystache]

Not sure how true that is in recent history, Johnson, West, Grant, even guys like Eagleton, Hahn and Gilbee were given a year too long

Agreed. In my life time we've kept our champions longer than we should have. We celebrate individuals too much in my opinion.

[always right]

Back on topic......I can't remember a time when we've had such a large proportion of our playing list so even. Assuming we have a reasonable run with injuries it's going to make weekly selections a massive headache for the coach....and that has to be a good thing. There are going to be a lot of players disappointed each week when they just miss the cut.

Will be fascinating to see which experienced players can step up a level to hold off younger blokes with precocious talent but bodies yet to be match hardened. Also looking forward to seeing who of the younger brigade can burst out of the pack and become genuine stars. We lack genuine match winners at the moment.

[bornadog]

Agreed. In my life time we've kept our champions longer than we should have. We celebrate individuals too much in my opinion.

Nothing else to celebrate. What's the problem anyway.

[Remi Moses]

Nothing else to celebrate. What's the problem anyway.

Chris Grant even stated the club lauds individuals more than the team aspect of our club.

[Greystache]

Nothing else to celebrate. What's the problem anyway.

Chicken and egg, do we have no team success so we celebrate individuals or do celebrate individuals so have no team success?

Celebration of individuals leads to difficulty for the club to make hard but necessary decisions when their time comes. The backlash from supporters is a consideration. On your point I certainly don't think we have mistreated club champions in anyway during my time, if anything we've been too generous.

[jeemak]

Nothing else to celebrate. What's the problem anyway.

I think there's a perception among some within the football community that we have tended towards focusing on individuals rather than the overall team. Particularly within the last couple of decades.

I'm not sure if it's accurate or not, though I've heard enough whispers of certain players within that time "running the place" and being protected from scrutiny.

As for Brian, it's always been clear to me he's been fairly Briancentric with his attitude. Win win as far as I'm concerned.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I think there's a perception among some within the football community that we have tended towards focusing on individuals rather than the overall team. Particularly within the last couple of decades.

I'm not sure if it's accurate or not, though I've heard enough whispers of certain players within that time "running the place" and being protected from scrutiny.

As for Brian, it's always been clear to me he's been fairly Briancentric with his attitude. Win win as far as I'm concerned.

My understanding on BMcC is that he is hell bent on creating a team culture at the expense of the individual. Personally I was disappointed in the way Lake left the Club after nearly 200 games a B&f winner and two All Australian awards. We have been fortunate to have the quality of people like Grant, Johnson, West, Darcy and Smith and now quality people like Cross, Murphy, Griffen, Boyd and Morris who should all finish as one club players.

[bornadog]

Chicken and egg, do we have no team success so we celebrate individuals or do celebrate individuals so have no team success?

Celebration of individuals leads to difficulty for the club to make hard but necessary decisions when their time comes. The backlash from supporters is a consideration. On your point I certainly don't think we have mistreated club champions in anyway during my time, if anything we've been too generous.

I understand your point but we just don't have the premierships so we celebrate after the season end with brownlows or all Australian etc. There is no doubt in my mind the club is looking for team performance and premierships. Club champions is just all part of it.

On treatment of club champions, I guess I was talking about the past.

[always right]

I understand your point but we just don't have the premierships so we celebrate after the season end with brownlows or all Australian etc. There is no doubt in my mind the club is looking for team performance and premierships. Club champions is just all part of it.

On treatment of club champions, I guess I was talking about the past.

How far back are you talking? Quinlan and Round or more recent than that?

[bornadog]

How far back are you talking? Quinlan and Round or more recent than that?

Look it doesn't matter, my point is I hate to see club champions leave our club.

Anyway, I have moved on from Brain, we got a couple of players from the deal and hopefully they will make a big impact in years to come.