Essendon under AFL investigation regarding 2012 fitness program

[LostDoggy]

Essendon just held a press conference at AFL House to announce that they've approached the AFL and ASADA to investigate their fitness program from 2012, with rumours of performance enhancing drugs and a waiver they asked their playing group to sign, (attempting) to relinquish the club of any responsibility for what the players might take under that fitness program.

I listened to the presser on SEN but nothing was really said beyond that. I found it quite interesting that they'd hold a press conference on such a huge announcement and then say nothing, but obviously their hands are tied by legal issues.

Thoughts? I know many here are going to be dancing in the streets, but in reality, it affects the integrity of the whole league, not just Essendon.

[LostDoggy]

Essendon just held a press conference at AFL House to announce that they've approached the AFL and ASADA to investigate their fitness program from 2012, with rumours of performance enhancing drugs and a waiver they asked their playing group to sign, (attempting) to relinquish the club of any responsibility for what the players might take under that fitness program.

I listened to the presser on SEN but nothing was really said beyond that. I found it quite interesting that they'd hold a press conference on such a huge announcement and then say nothing, but obviously their hands are tied by legal issues.

Thoughts? I know many here are going to be dancing in the streets, but in reality, it affects the integrity of the whole league, not just Essendon.

You're quite right.

But I'm still dancing in the streets.

Nothing trivial I trust.

If they were on drugs they ought to get new dealer because they kept getting soft tissue injuries.

[immortalmike]

Put me in for one of those dancing in the streets but one question.

How do you systematically cheat and still completely suck.?

[Ozza]

Adelaide v Essendon to kick off the 2013 season.

I guess round 1 won't be 'AFL Integrity Round'.

[Remi Moses]

My take is they thought this could be hidden away( considering it happened over 12 months back) Someone's spoken up and they've been caught out.
Battle of the cheats in round 1

[DragzLS1]

Adelaide v Essendon to kick off the 2013 season.

I guess round 1 won't be 'AFL Integrity Round'.

Haha!! Pretty confident it won't be :p

If true then I hope they get what they deserve

[Dry Rot]

I have read elsewhere that if they used performance enhancing drugs, the the sports drug bodies, not the AFL, will hand out suspensions.

[SonofScray]

Trying to get on the front foot because someone has been tipped off. Just another example of these 'big' clubs thinking they run the show.

Typical of that Club, salary cap meant nothing to them, no doubt the ASADA code did as well.

Best case scenario for everyone is that they fold.

[Dazza]

Pretty crazy.

Reimers was just on SEN. Seems to be the whistle blower.

[Remi Moses]

Trying to get on the front foot because someone has been tipped off. Just another example of these 'big' clubs thinking they run the show.

Typical of that Club, salary cap meant nothing to them, no doubt the ASADA code did as well.

Best case scenario for everyone is that they fold.

Heard Caroline Wilson ( yeah I know, salt grain and all that)
Reckons they threatened to sue when the journos got hold of the story 24 hrs ago.

[Bulldog4life]

http://www.sportal.com.au/afl-news-display/reimers-boundaries-were-pushed-220786


3AW commentator and former Brownlow Medalist Gerard Healy believes the club could be banned from the AFL for up to two years if the allegations are proven to be true.

Healy also suggested some members of the club knew of the concerns surrounding the supplement use a year ago, despite officials saying they only became aware of it in the past two days.

[ratsmac]

Does this mean Jobe Watson has to hand over the Brownlow to Cotchin?????
Gee I surely hope so because that would make my day.

[Ghost Dog]

Once pinged for this, the penalty will be pretty stiff I imagine. The AFL can't do anything to protect them. It's in the hands of the Anti-doping agency. Andrew can't sweep this one under the carpet. Imagine if the Bombers were banned from the AFL.
Kind of wondered why Reamers went back to the VFL and didn't even try to nominate for the Rookie draft. Perhaps he had a plan to spill the beans all along, and didn't want to have to deal with the fallout at that level.

I always did get sick of hearing about this 'Weapon' guy. Turns out he might have to retrain.

[SonofScray]

http://www.sportal.com.au/afl-news-display/reimers-boundaries-were-pushed-220786


3AW commentator and former Brownlow Medalist Gerard Healy believes the club could be banned from the AFL for up to two years if the allegations are proven to be true.

Healy also suggested some members of the club knew of the concerns surrounding the supplement use a year ago, despite officials saying they only became aware of it in the past two days.

Would be amazing. I hope they have cheated and that justice runs its course. Boot them out. This Club has irreparably damaged the integrity of the game. Brought it into disrepute even.

I know the AFL only care about the perception of integrity and the impact it has on their ability to make more and more money though, so given the $$$ Essendon draw to their coffers expect this to fizzle out.

[Ghost Dog]

Would be amazing. I hope they have cheated and that justice runs its course. Boot them out. This Club has irreparably damaged the integrity of the game. Brought it into disrepute even.

I know the AFL only care about the perception of integrity and the impact it has on their ability to make more and more money though, so given the $$$ Essendon draw to their coffers expect this to fizzle out.

While the AFL is working with ASADA on the investigation, any potential punishment - severe if proven - could be out of the AFL's hands as it would be required to fall in line with ASADA policy.

Link (Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/drugs-probe-at-essendon-over-player-supplements-20130205-2dwmb.html#ixzz2K1QH7Z8Z)

Policy is policy. The AFL has to sit on its hands, if true.

[dog town]

The worst thing they have done is say they only became aware of it 2 days ago. Some journos claiming on twitter they were aware of the issue as far back as August.

[bornadog]

I wonder if any other clubs will come under similar scrutiny for a similar issue?

[cinder]

Gerald Healy reckons one other club could be implicated

[LostDoggy]

Trying to get on the front foot because someone has been tipped off. Just another example of these 'big' clubs thinking they run the show.

Typical of that Club, salary cap meant nothing to them, no doubt the ASADA code did as well.

Best case scenario for everyone is that they fold.

Post of the decade.

[Go_Dogs]

Gerald Healy reckons one other club could be implicated

Yep, seems like another club may be investigated too.

I'm quite shocked by it all, but mostly by the pathetic press conference yesterday.

I understand the illict drug testing results for 2012 are close to being released - could the PED stuff also be on the way which is why this has come out now? Seems bizarre that if a majority of their players have been using PED's that no positive tests have come to light, unless they have and the results are yet to be released....

[Throughandthrough]

May ignore many of the dons players for super coach. Apart from maybe picking all their cheap first year players

[lemmon]

Talk that the club made players sign individual waivers taking liability for whatever they took, surely you can't get much closer to endemic cheating than that if true

[LostDoggy]

[QUOTE=Griffen#16;308528]Yep, seems like another club may be investigated too.QUOTE]

Won't be us. All we can afford is an Aspro not the $10,000 a bottle stuff.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Talk that the club made players sign individual waivers taking liability for whatever they took, surely you can't get much closer to endemic cheating than that if true
Yes expecting their players to sell their souls with a signature on the bottom line. Like, witches in a coven, we're all in this together. Sorry doing witches a disfavour here.:rolleyes:

[BulldogBelle]

Yes expecting their players to sell their souls with a signature on the bottom line. Like, witches in a coven, we're all in this together. Sorry doing witches a disfavour here.:rolleyes:



Didnt Hird claim this is the first he's heard of the issue

Surely he would have had visibility if his players were asked to sign waivers

[Sedat]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/robinson-who-bucked-the-fitness-trend/story-e6frg7mx-1111114519497

Interesting little tidbit on The Weapon and The Pharmacist from the archives of 2007.

[Remi Moses]

Trying to get on the front foot because someone has been tipped off. Just another example of these 'big' clubs thinking they run the show.

Typical of that Club, salary cap meant nothing to them, no doubt the ASADA code did as well.

Best case scenario for everyone is that they fold.

I support the motion.
I propose a motion they handover their assets to the Western Bulldogs Football club.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

I support the motion.
I propose a motion they handover their assets to the Western Bulldogs Football club.

Seconded. They were our worst enemy in us trying to enter the League 'cos they wanted our potential recruits, after all we share a border between Footscray and Essendon.
England should also pay heavy compensation to Ireland too. England fold into Ireland I say.

[Pembleton]

Schadenfreude aside, is anyone else concerned about the knock on effects?

If the Bombers are forced out of the comp for a couple of years because of mass suspensions, the AFL's TV deal would, at best, need to be re-worked. We rely pretty heavily on that TV deal (even relative to a league that is heavily reliant on it), and as a relatively vulnerable club we rely on the general stability of the league, so anything that might erode that is a worry to me.

[chef]

There not going to be forced out of the league, at worst they will get fined and lose draft picks.

[cinder]

Didnt Hird claim this is the first he's heard of the issue

Surely he would have had visibility if his players were asked to sign waivers

If we can believe that (he had no knowledge), that's a sin in itself, surely the senior coach should be across everything his players are being asked to do. And if he isn't, then he something is seriously wrong somewhere.

As much as I can't stand Essendon, this is terrible for the AFL as a whole.

[comrade]

There not going to be forced out of the league, at worst they will get fined and lose draft picks.

That's exactly what would happen if the AFL were able to decide the penalty. Effectively a slap on the wrist.

However, ASADA would hand out the punishment which, from what is being written, would be significant (banned players etc).

Maybe we can get their Friday night games :D

[lemmon]

Anzac day would be nice...

[LostDoggy]

Post of the decade.

Please let Adelaide be implicated!

[always right]

Man I hope the other club is Hawthorn. Can't stand that sanctimonious little twerp who coaches them.

Seriously...sad day for AFL if true with potentially huge concequences. No-one will win out of this including us...despite some short term enjoyment for non-Essendon posters on footy boards.

[F'scary]

Man I hope the other club is Hawthorn. Can't stand that sanctimonious little twerp who coaches them.

If I remember what I read correctly, the other club is probably Gold Coast because the Weapon or his assistant also had a stint there.

[Go_Dogs]

If I remember what I read correctly, the other club is probably Gold Coast because the Weapon or his assistant also had a stint there.

Yes, The Pharmacist apparently spent a small amount of time at the Suns.

Will be interesting to see what follows. Every club president and CEO would've been in day long meetings being briefed by their sports science departments today I imagine.

[SonofScray]

Schadenfreude aside, is anyone else concerned about the knock on effects?

If the Bombers are forced out of the comp for a couple of years because of mass suspensions, the AFL's TV deal would, at best, need to be re-worked. We rely pretty heavily on that TV deal (even relative to a league that is heavily reliant on it), and as a relatively vulnerable club we rely on the general stability of the league, so anything that might erode that is a worry to me.

Yes. For that reason I think the AFL will fight tooth and nail to prevent any severe punishment, try and influence ASADA through strategic advice in support of Essendon. I.E get on the front foot, remove key players, pro active iin identifying the issue etc.

The league is hell bent on maintaining its perception of integrity, knowing that betting dollars and TV dollars are paramount. Anything that shakes up those dollars can impact us for sure. I'd not want genuine integrity to be put aside for those reasons though.

FOLD THEM!

[Go_Dogs]

Without having heard it, sounds like Mark McVeigh has been on radio this afternoon essentially dismissing all of the allegations.

[G-Mo77]

Without having heard it, sounds like Mark McVeigh has been on radio this afternoon essentially dismissing all of the allegations.

And came across as a complete twat in the process. His pot shots at Reimers were completely out of line considering the sensitive circumstances but I guess that is how these cheats are going to roll. Completely discredit the witness until he gives in.

[Dancin' Douggy]

The Weapon.
The Pharmacist.

Sounds like a Led Zeppelin tour.

What a f%#@K up.

[The Underdog]

And came across as a complete twat in the process. His pot shots at Reimers were completely out of line considering the sensitive circumstances but I guess that is how these cheats are going to roll. Completely discredit the witness until he gives in.

I don't it's that he came across that way, just an accurate representation of who he is.

[Remi Moses]

I don't it's that he came across that way, just an accurate representation of who he is.

If that's the case why did we have a presser and all the angst?
Deny, Deny Deny.

[SonofScray]

I don't it's that he came across that way, just an accurate representation of who he is.

100% agree. Worst 'tough guy' ever to wear the label.

[Twodogs]

The Weapon.
The Pharmacist.

Sounds like a Led Zeppelin tour.

What a f%#@K up.

Like TISM said "I"m John Bonham's COKE ROADIE!!!!"



And came across as a complete twat in the process. His pot shots at Reimers were completely out of line considering the sensitive circumstances but I guess that is how these cheats are going to roll. Completely discredit the witness until he gives in.


Yep. he very much came across as saying "We are Essendon so we cant possibly do anything wrong." The fawning and simpering from The Ox and Mark Allen was stomach churning. Especially the Ox-if he called McVeigh 'Spike' one more time I was going to throw up. I still have respect for Schwartz but it diminished significantly today.

[LostDoggy]

Pretty crazy.

Reimers was just on SEN. Seems to be the whistle blower.

Good on him. That's a real man, he has earnt my respect.


Does this mean Jobe Watson has to hand over the Brownlow to Cotchin?????
Gee I surely hope so because that would make my day.

Would Cotchin want it in those circumstances? It'd be very much Robert Harvey 1997 wouldn't it?

I think this issue is very much a double-edged sword. There's going to be plenty of good and plenty of bad out of it.

If Essendon are banned, what happens to the fixture? An impromptu bye? This is very much an AFL issue, not an Essendon issue, and it's not just their own fans they've shat on, it's every footy fan out there.

[Bulldog4life]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/club-link-to-drug-dealer-20130206-2dz05.html

Keeps getting more interesting.

[Topdog]

Yep, seems like another club may be investigated too.

I'm quite shocked by it all, but mostly by the pathetic press conference yesterday.

I understand the illict drug testing results for 2012 are close to being released - could the PED stuff also be on the way which is why this has come out now? Seems bizarre that if a majority of their players have been using PED's that no positive tests have come to light, unless they have and the results are yet to be released....

PED's are an instant suspension.

[Topdog]

Would Cotchin want it in those circumstances? It'd be very much Robert Harvey 1997 wouldn't it?

Cotchin might but Sam Mitchell would be pretty annoyed at being ignored again.

[jeemak]

And came across as a complete twat in the process. His pot shots at Reimers were completely out of line considering the sensitive circumstances but I guess that is how these cheats are going to roll. Completely discredit the witness until he gives in.


Like TISM said "I"m John Bonham's COKE ROADIE!!!!"





Yep. he very much came across as saying "We are Essendon so we cant possibly do anything wrong." The fawning and simpering from The Ox and Mark Allen was stomach churning. Especially the Ox-if he called McVeigh 'Spike' one more time I was going to throw up. I still have respect for Schwartz but it diminished significantly today.

Remind you of anyone else that's recently been done over after systemic drug cheating?

Twodogs, you've pretty much explained the reasons why I despise SEN and basically all of the traditional football media apart from a few out there that don't seem to want to be the best friend of anyone that happens to be on the inside.

I think all concerned, whether they be inside the Essendon Football Club, associated with the club or the AFL, or within the media would be very well served in remaining objective or shut up otherwise. There's a lot to play out in this, and if I was in any of those positions I'd be very careful not to pin my colours to a mast.

I'm not going to rejoice in any form of another clubs misery at this point. After the Aker and Liberatore situation I know how shit it is to have the tide of media and public opinion set against me and my club as a supporter. Like the Bulldogs, the Essendon Football Club has good supporters and members, just like it has crappy ones.

This is just another example of how close supporters of a club can be to being completely at the mercy of the stupid actions of those employed to do their jobs properly. Every supporter's next shit sandwich is just around the corner, and that's something worth remembering.

[G-Mo77]

I bet they wish they didn't use the "Whatever It Takes" slogan now. :D

[jeemak]

I can't imagine the level of regret within the brains trust (sic) of the Essendon cheer squad after they'd made up the "Weapon" banner after all the soft tissue injuries that befell the Essendon FC in 2012, let alone right now.......

[BornInDroopSt'54]

I bet they wish they didn't use the "Whatever It Takes" slogan now. :D

A Freudian slip on their behalf that, as they do, betrays a truth.

[LostDoggy]

Released their new theme song this morning "...see the Bombers shoot up, up...."

[Remi Moses]

Like TISM said "I"m John Bonham's COKE ROADIE!!!!"





Yep. he very much came across as saying "We are Essendon so we cant possibly do anything wrong." The fawning and simpering from The Ox and Mark Allen was stomach churning. Especially the Ox-if he called McVeigh 'Spike' one more time I was going to throw up. I still have respect for Schwartz but it diminished significantly today.

Do the AFL own SEN yet?
Might as well. You've got sycophant Harford at midday, can't stand Mark Allen personally.

[craigsahibee]

Should ASADA ban the players involved, and I'm not sure of the numbers but I have heard it could be in the vicinity of 25, the AFL will need to grant Essendon a lifeline that enables them to "top-up" their list so that they can field a team. As others have mentioned, the AFL (and it's stakeholder clubs) can not afford to not have Essendon in the fixture. TV Rights are based on them being involved. Even with a topped up list, TV networks will be out for compensation as a result of potentially lower ratings concerning Essendon games. No one will win out of this.

I do agree with Patrick Smith regarding the untenable positions of the leaders of the club. If the alleged actions are proved to be illegal and they did not know it was happening they are negligent in their duties and must go. If they did know it was happening, they must go.

Part of me is rejoicing in the fact that it is Essendon, (having said that it could be any one of the other clubs and I would still be rejoicing) however I am concerned for the future integrity of the AFL. As much as we moan and lament about umpiring, biased draws, unfair financial discrepancies and general flaws throughout the league, it's our league and our game.

[lemmon]

Did anyone hear the press conference that just went on??? I missed it but apparently huge news, the whole league is about to be turned upside down were the words my friend used

[Bulldog4life]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-07/4505884

Most likely should be a thread on its own. Just heard the information on television. Shocking. More to come.

[Topdog]

yeah all sports involved not just AFL. Apparently an A-League has been a major focus as there were huge influx of betting on a fixture in "Victoria" from asian markets. Apparently around $40mil on one match!

[Remi Moses]

Asian betting agencies even place bets on VPL games.
Guess it makes sense, with no scrutiny and no crowd.
Remember in the UK in the 90's they were betting on VPL games!:eek:
Even have soccer pool system on games.

[LostDoggy]

Ban gambling on sport. It's not going to eradicate cheating, but it would go a long way to removing the criminal element.

Not racing, of course...

[jeemak]

Ban gambling on sport. It's not going to eradicate cheating, but it would go a long way to removing the criminal element.

Not racing, of course...

Pretty sure banning gambling on sports other than racing will just line the pockets of organised crime further.

[comrade]

Hypothetical question.

If a number of AFL clubs are implicated and 5-10 of their best players are banned for 2 years leaving only the Bulldogs, GWS, Gold Coast and Melbourne completely, would you celebrate a premiership?

[Mantis]

Hypothetical question.

If a number of AFL clubs are implicated and 5-10 of their best players are banned for 2 years leaving only the Bulldogs, GWS, Gold Coast and Melbourne completely, would you celebrate a premiership?

We would find a way to lose the prelim. :(

[bornadog]

Hypothetical question.

If a number of AFL clubs are implicated and 5-10 of their best players are banned for 2 years leaving only the Bulldogs, GWS, Gold Coast and Melbourne completely, would you celebrate a premiership?

As long as we don't cheat, yes. Its a bit like Steve Bradbury winning the skating gold. He didn't win because the others fell, he had better skills and he didn't fall over at the last hurdle.

[Eastdog]

Pretty sure banning gambling on sports other than racing will just line the pockets of organised crime further.

Agree jeemak. The crime would increase if you just ban it. Gambling has to be regulated somehow to get rid of the organised crime.

[Topdog]

Ban gambling on sport. It's not going to eradicate cheating, but it would go a long way to removing the criminal element.

Not racing, of course...

Racing needs it banned the most

[chef]

Ban gambling on sport. It's not going to eradicate cheating, but it would go a long way to removing the criminal element.

Not racing, of course...

Ban gambling altogether.

[bornadog]

Ban gambling altogether.

and then it all goes underground.

[cinder]

I just hope to God we're not implicated!

[chef]

and then it all goes underground.

Yeah, your right.

ATM every second ad on TV during sport is a betting ad and odds are mentioned by commentators, can't be healthy for kids IMO. Also think mobile gambling is crazy. But maybe it's just me, not a fan of gambling.

[bornadog]

Yeah, your right.

ATM every second ad on TV during sport is a betting ad and odds are mentioned by commentators, can't be healthy for kids IMO. Also think mobile gambling is crazy. But maybe it's just me, not a fan of gambling.

It has gone over board. I think the advertising etc needs to been paired back.

[jeemak]

I just hope to God we're not implicated!

I hope not as well. Though, I'm open to it happening.

Watching the news I couldn't help but think there's going to be a lot of people getting plumb jobs out of this whole thing. I kind of get the feeling the audience is being set up for another layer of regulation and control measures to deal with an issue that isn't as big as is being made out.

I suppose I'll await the detail, and form judgement based on that (a novel concept, I know).

[The Underdog]

and then it all goes underground.

Just like drugs. Maybe they should also be legalised and regulated.

[The Underdog]

Racing needs it banned the most

Without gambling and criminals, horse racing would pretty much have no raison d'être

[Eastdog]

and then it all goes underground.

That's where it will go unfortunately so you can't simply just ban it and everything will be alright.

[LongWait]

I hope not as well. Though, I'm open to it happening.

Watching the news I couldn't help but think there's going to be a lot of people getting plumb jobs out of this whole thing. I kind of get the feeling the audience is being set up for another layer of regulation and control measures to deal with an issue that isn't as big as is being made out.

I suppose I'll await the detail, and form judgement based on that (a novel concept, I know).

The heavy involvement of Victoria University in our fitness and conditioning programs probably lessens the likelihood of club staff going off the reservation and getting too adventurous.

[Topdog]

Yeah, your right.

ATM every second ad on TV during sport is a betting ad and odds are mentioned by commentators, can't be healthy for kids IMO. Also think mobile gambling is crazy. But maybe it's just me, not a fan of gambling.

The ads are way over the top. Mobile betting is great. Shame Australia cut it back so much. The silly rules around live event betting are painful.

[LostDoggy]

How's the Australian Crime Commission? Strolling up to the press conference in formation, using lines like "we know more than you think" if you don't come forward we will find you"

I thought i was watching a movie for a second.

Anyway, this is massive. Will this get sorted before round 1? Time is running thin...

Nathan Brown has came out and said he was offered human growth hormones in 2005 after breaking he's leg..

We are seeing alot of players returning from injury alot quicker than exepcted lately.

[bornadog]

The heavy involvement of Victoria University in our fitness and conditioning programs probably lessens the likelihood of club staff going off the reservation and getting too adventurous.

Good article here from Carro: War on sports scientists (http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/war-on-sports-scientists-20130207-2e1i1.html)

[Bulldog4life]

I hope not as well. Though, I'm open to it happening.

Watching the news I couldn't help but think there's going to be a lot of people getting plumb jobs out of this whole thing. I kind of get the feeling the audience is being set up for another layer of regulation and control measures to deal with an issue that isn't as big as is being made out.

I suppose I'll await the detail, and form judgement based on that (a novel concept, I know).

I have been following it closely all day and I feel the opposite to you Jeemak. I think it will be huge.I may be corrected on this but it appears one of the problems holding criminal charges up is not all the phone tapping evidence is admissible evidence in court at this stage.

[bornadog]

I have been following it closely all day and I feel the opposite to you Jeemak. I think it will be huge.I may be corrected on this but it appears one of the problems holding criminal charges up is not all the phone tapping evidence is admissible evidence in court at this stage.

This is all getting embarrassing with BBC World news reporting on the widespread issues with performance enhancing drugs and criminal elements involved in Australian elite sports.

This in the Guardian: Australian doping inquiry finds illegal drugs rife in country's sport (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/feb/07/australian-doping-sport-drugs)

[jeemak]

I have been following it closely all day and I feel the opposite to you Jeemak. I think it will be huge.I may be corrected on this but it appears one of the problems holding criminal charges up is not all the phone tapping evidence is admissible evidence in court at this stage.

As I said I'll await further information before making a judgement, though as Jaytee has stated, it was an extremely scripted and staged event.

I'm prepared for it to be a shot across the bow of elite sports people to pull them into line, just as I'm prepared for it to be the scandal they've painted it as today.

If it's massive then so be it. Maybe it's about time the nation realised sport is just one aspect of society that lost its virtue a very long time ago, probably when it was completely commercialised and the dollar became more important than participation.

[Bulldog4life]

This is all getting embarrassing with BBC World news reporting on the widespread issues with performance enhancing drugs and criminal elements involved in Australian elite sports.

This in the Guardian: Australian doping inquiry finds illegal drugs rife in country's sport (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/feb/07/australian-doping-sport-drugs)

Oh for the good old days BAD......as I show my age.:)

[SonofScray]

The news reports today, while quite explosive, didn't offer a great deal of detail. Starting to look more like a frenzy that will fizzle out for mine.

Its all being very carefully crafted, from the timing of the news, the way its being reported etc. Giving us nothing.

[Bulldog4life]

The news reports today, while quite explosive, didn't offer a great deal of detail. Starting to look more like a frenzy that will fizzle out for mine.

Its all being very carefully crafted, from the timing of the news, the way its being reported etc. Giving us nothing.


http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/international/2013-02-07/australia-reacts-to-doping-report/1085518


ABC sports analyst Gerard Whateley expects arrests, criminal charges and mandatory two year bans, to begin soon.


Don't think Gerard does.

[SonofScray]

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/international/2013-02-07/australia-reacts-to-doping-report/1085518


ABC sports analyst Gerard Whateley expects arrests, criminal charges and mandatory two year bans, to begin soon.


Don't think Gerard does.

Wowee. Have a lot of respect for Whateley, thats want I want to hear in all honesty. Just get the details and consequences out there. Clearly the doping stuff is around the mark. They are being very careful with the match fixing comments. Mostly identifying the risks and correlations between it occurring in environments where PEDs are being accessed via crime syndicates.

[Dry Rot]

Macca would be very happy he got the gig with us. Otherwise, he would have been handing out consent forms in 2012 at Essendon.

[Remi Moses]

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/international/2013-02-07/australia-reacts-to-doping-report/1085518


ABC sports analyst Gerard Whateley expects arrests, criminal charges and mandatory two year bans, to begin soon.


Don't think Gerard does.

Lets hope there is something that comes out of this.
Sounded all sausage and no sizzle so far.
Can't work out why Fox footy didn't have a special edition with Gerard and Mark Robinson.

[immortalmike]

Just like drugs. Maybe they should also be legalised and regulated.
Yes. Yes they should.

Good article here from Carro: War on sports scientists (http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/war-on-sports-scientists-20130207-2e1i1.html)

I know the definition of each of those words individually but I can't comprehend that sentence...;)


As far as our involvement in this mess. I'm not ruling out specific players but I highly doubt we'd be involved in the sort of systematic cheating that is being alleged. This is not because we are better or more moral than Essendon (although we are) but mostly because as a club we know we couldn't survive if it was found out.

[whythelongface]

Macca would be very happy he got the gig with us. Otherwise, he would have been handing out consent forms in 2012 at Essendon.


It is only 2012 that we have been made aware of. Could this have been going on prior to 2012 at Essendon?

[Throughandthrough]

As far as our involvement in this mess. I'm not ruling out specific players but I highly doubt we'd be involved in the sort of systematic cheating that is being alleged. This is not because we are better or more moral than Essendon (although we are) but mostly because as a club we know we couldn't survive if it was found out.


IMHO the fact that we are a smaller/unsuccessful team may be all the more reason why we could be involved. I hope we arent, but sadly we cant be ruled any more in or out than anyone else at this stage.

A prohibiting factor though, apparently the drugs are massively expensive.

[The Underdog]

I should probably care more about this but I seemingly don't.
I guess I'll just turn up at the footy and hope there's 2 teams on the field.

[G-Mo77]

It is only 2012 that we have been made aware of. Could this have been going on prior to 2012 at Essendon?

I think he meant if he didn't get the head coaching role here he probably would have been at Essendon in 2012.

[whythelongface]

I think he meant if he didn't get the head coaching role here he probably would have been at Essendon in 2012.


I know what he meant. All I am alluding to is that it could have been going on well before 2012 and he could have been handing out consent forms in 2011.

[Sedat]

I should probably care more about this but I seemingly don't.
I guess I'll just turn up at the footy and hope there's 2 teams on the field.
I share your indifference Underdog. I used to be all over stories like this but I don't really give much of a toss anymore. Apparently there's a cricket one-day series still on - I remember some summers in my teenage years where I wouldn't miss a ball of every test match and ODI.

Sport the world over has disenfrahcnised their dedicated market to an alarming extent, primarily over niothing more than greed. Now that greed has manifested itself into exposing sport to vulnerability and lack of control against underworld and criminal elements. Reaping what you sow and all that.

[jeemak]

I share your indifference Underdog. I used to be all over stories like this but I don't really give much of a toss anymore. Apparently there's a cricket one-day series still on - I remember some summers in my teenage years where I wouldn't miss a ball of every test match and ODI.

Sport the world over has disenfrahcnised their dedicated market to an alarming extent, primarily over niothing more than greed. Now that greed has manifested itself into exposing sport to vulnerability and lack of control against underworld and criminal elements. Reaping what you sow and all that.

Nailed it.

The veneer has been well and truly removed, hopefully the masses will start to take sport for what its worth.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Hypothetical question.

If a number of AFL clubs are implicated and 5-10 of their best players are banned for 2 years leaving only the Bulldogs, GWS, Gold Coast and Melbourne completely, would you celebrate a premiership?

Bjorn Borg won the first of his five Wimbledons after professional players were banned. The succeeding four he won with the professionals included, IIRC. Of course we would celebrate and so we should. If others break the rules that's bad football just as much as on the field. Luck too is a strong player in every season.

[Bulldog4life]

Lets hope there is something that comes out of this.
Sounded all sausage and no sizzle so far.
Can't work out why Fox footy didn't have a special edition with Gerard and Mark Robinson.

Fox 360 with Robbo and Gerard starts next Friday. On the Fox Sports news channel 513 it was on all day yesterday and this morning. A lot of up to date news.

[G-Mo77]

I know what he meant. All I am alluding to is that it could have been going on well before 2012 and he could have been handing out consent forms in 2011.

Yeah who knows how long it's gone on. It's naive to think this is a one off and it's the first time it's happened.

[LostDoggy]

Pretty sure banning gambling on sports other than racing will just line the pockets of organised crime further.

Yeah, but would remove the problem with having the AFL so dependant on betting for revenue. It's a conflict of interest so outrageous the fact the government hasn't done something about it is a scandal in itself.

Perhaps the ban just needs to be on betting companies sponsoring or otherwise financially supporting the league, including via advertising on match day. Separate the two as much as possible so that both can continue.

If there was no betting, this issue would be limited to a player cheating for personal gain or a team cheating to try and win a flag. But as soon as you add ridiculous sums of potential money to a league that's already obsessed, driven by, and a slave to the almighty dollar, well, it's a powder keg.

Think about it — betting is at the core of many of the problems the league faces: tanking, match-fixing, performance-enhancing drugs, gambling amongst players/club officials…

[Dry Rot]

Can anyone tell me why the timing of the original Essendon announcement press conference?

These rumours have been around since at least Oct 2012.

[whythelongface]

Can anyone tell me why the timing of the original Essendon announcement press conference?

These rumours have been around since at least Oct 2012.

Good question. Maybe the rumours have become fact in the last few weeks. Maybe it has something to do with the investigation undertaken by the crime commission and the powers at be at Essendon decided it was better to inform the public first. Who knows. Everything is all hearsay at the moment until we are presented with the facts.

[jeemak]

Yeah, but would remove the problem with having the AFL so dependant on betting for revenue. It's a conflict of interest so outrageous the fact the government hasn't done something about it is a scandal in itself.

Perhaps the ban just needs to be on betting companies sponsoring or otherwise financially supporting the league, including via advertising on match day. Separate the two as much as possible so that both can continue.

If there was no betting, this issue would be limited to a player cheating for personal gain or a team cheating to try and win a flag. But as soon as you add ridiculous sums of potential money to a league that's already obsessed, driven by, and a slave to the almighty dollar, well, it's a powder keg.

Think about it — betting is at the core of many of the problems the league faces: tanking, match-fixing, performance-enhancing drugs, gambling amongst players/club officials…

Spot betting makes me uneasy, though I'm not really sure what can be done to stop organised crime figures from accessing players to fix matches bet on overseas and online.

[Topdog]

Think about it — betting is at the core of many of the problems the league faces: tanking, match-fixing, performance-enhancing drugs, gambling amongst players/club officials…

I disagree with a lot of your post but this part in particular is just wrong.

Tanking has nothing to do with betting. Teams tank to finish lower on the ladder, it is a disgraceful thing to do.
Performance enhancing drugs - how does this have anything to do with betting? They are taken so that the team can win, they are taken as it is an "easy way to win".
Gambling amongst players/club officials. This is certainly not a good look but at least now it is legal and regulated. If it went underground I would hate to see how bad it got.

[Bulldog4life]

Dons in the gun over practices

THE high-performance program at Essendon Football Club came under the scrutiny of the Australian Crime Commission and was one key element of the damning report released on Thursday.

But Fairfax Media understands that Essendon was not the club singled out for ''team-based doping orchestrated by some club officials and coaching staff'''.

As Bombers officials on Friday met investigators from the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority, the dubious practices adopted by the club and its high-performance program appear in danger of having violated anti-doping rules under the code.

While club president David Evans said on Tuesday he did not believe his players had taken performance-enhancing substances, the club is being investigated for breaking the ASADA charter, which includes strict guidelines regarding the administering of substances.
Advertisement

An administrator found guilty of adopting a prohibited method in providing substances to an athlete faces a ban of up to two years. An athlete also can face a two-year ban for taking a drug not currently on the banned list but containing similar components to other banned drugs. Thursday's crime commission report singled out ''specific high-performance staff, sports scientists and coaches within some codes who have condoned and/or orchestrated the administration of prohibited substances, and substances not yet approved for human consumption …''

The prevailing view is that while the Essendon players did not necessarily use banned substances they might have been victim to banned administering methods. Stephen Dank, one high-performance expert now sacked from the club, is reported to have injected his players in the stomach with an unknown substance.

Players were also fed with intravenous drips off-site. The AFL on Friday moved to ban intravenous drug and supplement use.

The AFL's newest club, Greater Western Sydney, moved this week to reassure parents of its young and largely teenaged playing group that the club's medical and sports science practices were safe. Giants chief executive David Matthews confirmed that the club had written to the families of all its players ''following the speculation around this week. We didn't want them to be concerned about anything reading the papers and we simply reassured them as we have in the past that we prioritise welfare.''

Matthews said the letter included some details from the club's high-performance boss John Quinn outlining his training program. The AFL has been bound by a confidentiality agreement which prevented it from revealing its knowledge of clubs and individuals being investigated. But it is known it was briefed about certain individuals and at least one club.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/dons-in-the-gun-over-practices-20130208-2e3zv.html#ixzz2KMfz9i9v

Now that is interesting.

[Remi Moses]

It's painful listening to Harford on SEN.
He tried to draw a comparison with the regular joe visiting his GP and getting incorrect injections .Defended the big wigs at Essendon by saying they had no idea what was happening.
Fair Dinkum if your Boss employed someone who incorrectly performed a medical procedure , he'd be fired and sued.

[Twodogs]

It's painful listening to Harford on SEN.
He tried to draw a comparison with the regular joe visiting his GP and getting incorrect injections .Defended the big wigs at Essendon by saying they had no idea what was happening.
Fair Dinkum if your Boss employed someone who incorrectly performed a medical procedure , he'd be fired and sued.


It's more Robbo. He's a good comedian going to waste with some of the rubbish he's been talking in the last hour.

[Remi Moses]

It's more Robbo. He's a good comedian going to waste with some of the rubbish he's been talking in the last hour.

Both horrible Sycophants..

[Twodogs]

Robbo's Essendon heart is firmly attached to his sleeve though. He's currently talking about how speed was legal in the '50s-I'm not sure what that's got to do with anything and I suspect it's not even correct.

[LostDoggy]

I disagree with a lot of your post but this part in particular is just wrong.

Tanking has nothing to do with betting. Teams tank to finish lower on the ladder, it is a disgraceful thing to do.
Performance enhancing drugs - how does this have anything to do with betting? They are taken so that the team can win, they are taken as it is an "easy way to win".
Gambling amongst players/club officials. This is certainly not a good look but at least now it is legal and regulated. If it went underground I would hate to see how bad it got.

I'm talking about tanking as in deliberately losing a game. How else do you think match-fixing happens? “I'll give you a coupla grand to win the game”?

From the information getting around at the moment, if true, the supposed “crime gangs” are importing and providing access to performance enhancing drugs to get the players/officials/whoever on their side of the law, then extorting them for match day info, etc.

I respect that you may disagree, but my point is not “just wrong”.

[chef]

I'm talking about tanking as in deliberately losing a game. How else do you think match-fixing happens? “I'll give you a coupla grand to win the game”?

From the information getting around at the moment, if true, the supposed “crime gangs” are importing and providing access to performance enhancing drugs to get the players/officials/whoever on their side of the law, then extorting them for match day info, etc.

I respect that you may disagree, but my point is not “just wrong”.

I think spot betting is the bigger problem.

[Remi Moses]

Robbo's Essendon heart is firmly attached to his sleeve though. He's currently talking about how speed was legal in the '50s-I'm not sure what that's got to do with anything and I suspect it's not even correct.

The station is bordering on embarrassing .
Mark Fine tonight waffling on about that it's okay to be a little bit of a cheat but not of Lance Armstrong proportions.

[Throughandthrough]

Fair Dinkum if your Boss employed someone who incorrectly performed a medical procedure , he'd be fired and sued.


Definitely, especially as she isn't even a doctor

[Mofra]

http://www.sportal.com.au/afl-news-display/reimers-boundaries-were-pushed-220786


3AW commentator and former Brownlow Medalist Gerard Healy believes the club could be banned from the AFL for up to two years if the allegations are proven to be true.

Healy also suggested some members of the club knew of the concerns surrounding the supplement use a year ago, despite officials saying they only became aware of it in the past two days.
According to some the doping authorities can only ban individuals for up to two years, not clubs. It's going to get very interesting as this story unfolds.

I take multivitamins - I don't to have them injected into my stomach, nor do any of the elite athletes/soldiers I've met.

[whythelongface]

According to some the doping authorities can only ban individuals for up to two years, not clubs. It's going to get very interesting as this story unfolds.

I take multivitamins - I don't to have them injected into my stomach, nor do any of the elite athletes/soldiers I've met.

The injecting part is what gets me. It must work itself into the system quicker by administering it via injections or intravenously, thus aiding in recovery. Apart from vitamins and calves blood I wonder what else was administered.

[LostDoggy]

Please forgive the total medical and biological ignorance of this question, but does injecting it rather than taking it orally leave fewer traces in the urine?

[Bulldog Joe]

There is no doubt that the injecting is to get a quicker reaction.

Taken orally anything needs to be absorbed through the digestive system. This may also filter out some of the sought after benefits.

An intravenous injection gets 100% of the substance (legal or otherwise) straight to the bloodstream, T

I believe injection into the stomach (as the Essendon claims appear to be) will be more efficient than oral medication.

[LostDoggy]

The injecting part is what gets me. It must work itself into the system quicker by administering it via injections or intravenously, thus aiding in recovery. Apart from vitamins and calves blood I wonder what else was administered.

Whatever happened to half an orange at three-quarter time?

[Ghost Dog]

up to 6 NRL clubs going to be notified they are under investigation. Not looking good from a National perspective...

[chef]

Wonder who the AFL player how failed the drug test(performance enhancing) is.

[Topdog]

I'm talking about tanking as in deliberately losing a game. How else do you think match-fixing happens? “I'll give you a coupla grand to win the game”?

From the information getting around at the moment, if true, the supposed “crime gangs” are importing and providing access to performance enhancing drugs to get the players/officials/whoever on their side of the law, then extorting them for match day info, etc.

I respect that you may disagree, but my point is not “just wrong”.

Spot fixing and match fixing are very different. Match fixing is just impossible in the AFL with 100 points per team per game.
Spot fixing is possible

[Remi Moses]

Spot fixing is the biggest issue.
They bet on first throw ins, corners and every inconsequential moment in a sporting match.
Biggest indictment on sport

[Ghost Dog]

I remember being taunted by Essendon supporters in the past for being a 'poor' club.
Well look who's laughing now. All the money in the world could not get them out of the sh*t creek full of peptide madness they are in now.

[jeemak]

I remember being taunted by Essendon supporters in the past for being a 'poor' club.
Well look who's laughing now. All the money in the world could not get them out of the sh*t creek they are in now.

I'm not entirely convinced of that. There's a lot to be played out in this.

ASADA will have its work cut out to prove any illegal doping took place, and while there's been some serious red flags about the conduct of Essendon's sports science staff and the conduct of club management to this point, finding concrete evidence of wrongdoing is going to be difficult.

If anything Essendon's resources will put them in good stead to fight charges brought against them, especially over a drawn out investigative process. I'd truly despair if any such accusation was brought against our club, as we'd not have the resources to adequately fight them.

As it stands Essendon looks as as if they've not had appropriate governance procedures in place as well as some borderline medical activity, but not a lot more on what's been presented so far.

This whole saga for mine has been handled terribly by the authorities. They've lost the element of surprise, and are going to look extremely silly if they can't produce any evidence of illegal practices taking place. More and more last Thursday's press conference looks like a shot across the bow of sporting clubs and players, and a career building exercise for other parties.

[bornadog]

I'm not entirely convinced of that. There's a lot to be played out in this.

ASADA will have its work cut out to prove any illegal doping took place, and while there's been some serious red flags about the conduct of Essendon's sports science staff and the conduct of club management to this point, finding concrete evidence of wrongdoing is going to be difficult.

If anything Essendon's resources will put them in good stead to fight charges brought against them, especially over a drawn out investigative process. I'd truly despair if any such accusation was brought against our club, as we'd not have the resources to adequately fight them.

As it stands Essendon looks as as if they've not had appropriate governance procedures in place as well as some borderline medical activity, but not a lot more on what's been presented so far.

This whole saga for mine has been handled terribly by the authorities. They've lost the element of surprise, and are going to look extremely silly if they can't produce any evidence of illegal practices taking place. More and more last Thursday's press conference looks like a shot across the bow of sporting clubs and players, and a career building exercise for other parties.

Good article here A black and red issue, but grey areas rule

(http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/a-black-and-red-issue-but-grey-areas-rule-20130212-2eb5s.html) on that very issue

[jeemak]

Thanks for posting that BAD(ness).

I see CH7 is hosting a summit on Thursday night on the topic of drugs in the AFL. It's up to the football public to keep a collective level head and not indulge hyperbole presented by media outlets for the purposes of profit where this topic is concerned.

I won't be watching it. Whilst it's on a less consequential tip, this kind of reminds me of the bushfire situation experienced this summer, where all media outlets are salivating at the prospect of extreme drama and misery, providing them with something to report.

It's going to be a long month before the season starts.

[Remi Moses]

I'm not entirely convinced of that. There's a lot to be played out in this.

ASADA will have its work cut out to prove any illegal doping took place, and while there's been some serious red flags about the conduct of Essendon's sports science staff and the conduct of club management to this point, finding concrete evidence of wrongdoing is going to be difficult.

If anything Essendon's resources will put them in good stead to fight charges brought against them, especially over a drawn out investigative process. I'd truly despair if any such accusation was brought against our club, as we'd not have the resources to adequately fight them.

As it stands Essendon looks as as if they've not had appropriate governance procedures in place as well as some borderline medical activity, but not a lot more on what's been presented so far.

This whole saga for mine has been handled terribly by the authorities. They've lost the element of surprise, and are going to look extremely silly if they can't produce any evidence of illegal practices taking place. More and more last Thursday's press conference looks like a shot across the bow of sporting clubs and players, and a career building exercise for other parties.

Good points made, but the AFL falling under Wada's doping laws good resources are going to mean little . I found the whole parent teacher talkfest bizarre, as Essendon don't know themselves what their players have taken.

[jeemak]

Good points made, but the AFL falling under Wada's doping laws good resources are going to mean little . I found the whole parent teacher talkfest bizarre, as Essendon don't know themselves what their players have taken.

I assume WADA will have the same issues ASADA (though, they're apparently significantly less resourced) will face when it comes to determinning if any wrongdoing has taken place (unless of course, any of the substances they admit to have given their players fall under WADA's code as being illegal).

Your second point is well made, and it aligns with my opinion that Essendon's governance has been nothing short of pathetic in this instance. On the one hand the feedback session could be viewed as preparing parents of players for the worst, or it could be a simplistic window dressing exercise to give the public the impression they are a diligent gaurdian of young adults, who care about the culture of their club and the wellbeing of its players.

For mine it's the latter, and falls in the category of PR driven damage control.

[ledge]

One thing we do know is essendon were using a substance that hasn't been tested so in that instance it is illegal, whether it's ok or not. Not going to the drug testing companies before using it and asking is it ok is on crime for a start.
Then you ask why didnt they if they thought it was ok?
Guilty of not letting ASADA know in the first place is worth a penalty in itself.

[bornadog]

Essendon don't know themselves what their players have taken.

Do you believe that, because I don't.

[Ghost Dog]

I'm not entirely convinced of that. There's a lot to be played out in this.

ASADA will have its work cut out to prove any illegal doping took place, and while there's been some serious red flags about the conduct of Essendon's sports science staff and the conduct of club management to this point, finding concrete evidence of wrongdoing is going to be difficult.
.

The fact is, players in a national code have been given substances that are not approved for use in Australia. Wether or not they had a doping effect is not the main point. It's very hard to see how they are going to avoid some sort of penalty.

[bornadog]

The fact is, players in a national code have been given substances that are not approved for use in Australia. Wether or not they had a doping effect is not the main point. It's very hard to see how they are going to avoid some sort of penalty.

Correct if true. Still has to be proven.

[Remi Moses]

Do you believe that, because I don't.

So why dob yourself in to ASADA?
Nothing is proven, that's true.
Surely alarm bells must be going off when you report yourself .

[LostDoggy]

Good points made, but the AFL falling under Wada's doping laws good resources are going to mean little . I found the whole parent teacher talkfest bizarre, as Essendon don't know themselves what their players have taken.

Of course they know. Hard to take a cheat at their word, isn't it?


So why dob yourself in to ASADA?
Nothing is proven, that's true.
Surely alarm bells must be going off when you report yourself .

To try and offset the penalty. “Oh, we came clean, your honour…” Happens every single day in every court in the land — cough up, get a lighter sentence.

[Remi Moses]

Of course they know. Hard to take a cheat at their word, isn't it?



To try and offset the penalty. “Oh, we came clean, your honour…” Happens every single day in every court in the land — cough up, get a lighter sentence.

I think they get a 75% reduction by pleading guilty.
Instead of 2 years it's something like 6 months!
It will all come out in the cover up.:eek:

[Ghost Dog]

So why dob yourself in to ASADA?
Nothing is proven, that's true.
Surely alarm bells must be going off when you report yourself .

They wouldn't go to the length of having a press conference if they thought they were 100% in the clear.

[Remi Moses]

Had a chuckle on SEN, Kevin Bartlett had an expert on corporate governance.
Said a few in high places had to go.
Bomber fans call up bagging corporate governments.:eek:

[The Adelaide Connection]

Was driving home from work and flicked to the AM's to hear that super popular ranga in blonde surfers hair talking to Cornsey and Stephen Rowe.

Stop me if I am a bit slow on the uptake and it's old news, but towards the end of their lengthy talk about the drug issues he mentioned that apparently Richmond were secretly shopping around Dustin Martin in the last trade period. He questioned why they would do that and then basically said "I'll let you fill in the gaps, but it's obvious why they wanted rid of him". I know Crackermanis is three levels of screwjob at the best of times, but DM's name seems to get forwarded a lot when people theorise about who the "one player" is from the other club. Seemed a very interesting story.

I know this is a little tangent from the specifically Essendon theme of this thread, but didn't think it deserved it's own.

[jeemak]

Was driving home from work and flicked to the AM's to hear that super popular ranga in blonde surfers hair talking to Cornsey and Stephen Rowe.

Stop me if I am a bit slow on the uptake and it's old news, but towards the end of their lengthy talk about the drug issues he mentioned that apparently Richmond were secretly shopping around Dustin Martin in the last trade period. He questioned why they would do that and then basically said "I'll let you fill in the gaps, but it's obvious why they wanted rid of him". I know Crackermanis is three levels of screwjob at the best of times, but DM's name seems to get forwarded a lot when people theorise about who the "one player" is from the other club. Seemed a very interesting story.

I know this is a little tangent from the specifically Essendon theme of this thread, but didn't think it deserved it's own.

There's been whispers about Dustin Martin's behaviour outside of the confines of Punt Road for the best part of 18 months.

The way the inuendo is structured it's fairly obvious those who perpetuate it seem to think ilicit substances are involved (most likely Ice), and with that comes further inuendo about the type of characters he could potentially be involved with.

There's a bit of a distinction between what type of character could be associated with certain drugs versus others. Speed and Ice are quite often associated with Bikies, and it seems that blackmarket performance enhancing ones are starting to fall into that level of control as well.

I'll qualify the above by stating I'm not directly implicating Martin on any level. Rather, I'm presenting some potential conclusions based on what's been reported in the media.

[LostDoggy]

There's been whispers about Dustin Martin's behaviour outside of the confines of Punt Road for the best part of 18 months.

The way the inuendo is structured it's fairly obvious those who perpetuate it seem to think ilicit substances are involved (most likely Ice), and with that comes further inuendo about the type of characters he could potentially be involved with.

There's a bit of a distinction between what type of character could be associated with certain drugs versus others. Speed and Ice are quite often associated with Bikies, and it seems that blackmarket performance enhancing ones are starting to fall into that level of control as well.

I'll qualify the above by stating I'm not directly implicating Martin on any level. Rather, I'm presenting some potential conclusions based on what's been reported in the media.

If it's Ice as in bikie street Ice it's going to have a pretty detrimental effect on him and not
be particularly performance enhancing in the long run i wouldn't have thought (if that is why people are suggesting he is taking it? ) Anyone I know who has taken Ice ends up absolutely rooted.

[jeemak]

If it's Ice as in bikie street Ice it's going to have a pretty detrimental effect on him and not
be particularly performance enhancing in the long run i wouldn't have thought (if that is why people are suggesting he is taking it? ) Anyone I know who has taken Ice ends up absolutely rooted.

From what I've read the bikies are dipping their toes in the performance enhancing sphere of peptides and other readily available drugs via the blackmarket that do the same.

Ice is a funny one for elite sports people. If they can have a blow out over the weekend post match, there's no reason why they can't get themselves to rehab sessions after no sleep, and crash and burn prior to their next major training session. There's always the potential for it to get out of control, just like it did with Ben Cousins. Though he kept it together for a very long time.

Having that structured lifestyle for the vast majority of the week helps professional sports people leave Ice and other substances as a recreational pursuit. In many cases it's when people don't have such a regimented lifestyle that it can spiral out of control.

[jeemak]

Back on topic:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/limitations-for-dons-samples-20130213-2edi1.html

THE AFL and the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority are unlikely to send Essendon players' samples overseas for testing at the two state-of-the-art laboratories that have the highest chance of detecting whether they took the relevant banned substances.

While the head of ASADA has said that only the laboratories in Cologne, Germany, and Montreal, Canada, have the capability of testing for performance-enhancing peptides, the AFL is understood to have been advised that the samples from players may well disintegrate over the journey.

Experts have suggested to the AFL that the substances in question - thought to be peptides that release human growth hormone within the body - might not be sufficiently preserved in Cologne or Montreal. But the decision on whether to send Essendon samples overseas would be made by ASADA, which controls the testing, rather than the AFL.

If the samples cannot be sent overseas, then the AFL and ASADA would almost be entirely reliant on detective work - and the evidence of players - in determining whether Essendon has taken any performance-enhancing substances.

Advertisement Essendon has maintained that its players took only vitamins as far as it knows and has been increasingly confident about its prospects of being cleared in the investigation. The club's players have not yet been interviewed by ASADA or the AFL, and will play in the NAB Cup on Friday evening.

The limitations of testing in investigating potential performance-enhancing drugs has been a massive issue for sport internationally, and the most spectacular successes in detecting cheating - the Lance Armstrong case, and the BALCO case involving Marion Jones - have all been on the back of detective work and testimonies of people involved, rather than testing.

The former head of ASADA, Richard Ings, said that sending samples overseas for testing had been standard practice when he ran ASADA, but that the test for peptides was ''brand new'' and this might explain complications. The samples also would be being tested for a second time, he said.

''It's a very, very standard thing to do … this is a brand new test. There may be something special about it, that is different to ones I used before. I wouldn't be doubting the AFL - I mean, if there's a chance to get them tested and get it done, they would do it. Also, it would be ASADA that would be making that decision, it would not be the AFL.''

Sports doctor Peter Brukner wrote in The Sunday Age on the weekend that the HGH ''precursors'' that are central to the question of whether Essendon breached the drug codes were, ''in effect … undetectable.''

Brukner said that athletes had turned to these precursors, or peptides that release HGH in the body, because ''they are extremely difficult to detect''.

''Instead of taking the banned and possible detectable HGH, those intent on improving performance have turned to the growth hormone precursors as an alternative,'' he said. ''There is no evidence that these substances work, but certainly there is a theoretical rationale behind their use.''



Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/limitations-for-dons-samples-20130213-2edi1.html#ixzz2KpVcH7sU

[bornadog]

Drug testers at Essendon training (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-02-14/drug-testers-at-dons-training)

ESSENDON was greeted by drug testers as it opened gates for fans and media to watch training on Thursday morning.

It was the first open session the Bombers have held since the supplements scandal broke more than a week ago.

Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority testers wearing white polo shirts and carrying black clipboards approached individual players for tests as they left the track.

It's understood ASADA was conducting routine tests and it was nothing out of the ordinary.

The Bombers play Collingwood and the Western Bulldogs in the opening round of the NAB Cup on Friday.

ASADA testers were also spotted at Whitten Oval Thursday morning.

[Mofra]

Interesting to read a different perspective:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/doctor-advocates-peptides-to-help-injured-bodies-heal/story-e6frg8y6-1226577446440


ROBIN Willcourt is a devotee of peptide hormones. He has taken them and says they turned his life around. He often prescribes them and says they could potentially save billions in public health costs.

He also believes professional athletes should be allowed to take them to help repair their bodies.

As one of Australia's most experienced and respected specialists in anti-ageing medicine, Dr Willcourt is also scathing of the way the Australian Crime Commission characterised the emerging market for peptide hormones in its report into organised crime and drugs in sport.

"The ACC has created a nightmare," Dr Willcourt told The Australian. "It is a chimera. It is a linking together of sometimes disparate groups that might have an association or something that is common. Putting a big lasso around them and corralling them into the same pen is not appropriate. That is what they have done."

...Dr Willcourt, the director of the Epigenx Integrated Medicine clinic in Melbourne, said he was questioned by the ACC as part of its 12-month intelligence operation, Project Aperio, and quizzed at length about his former business partner Trent Croad, a retired AFL player, and Stephen Dank, a sports scientist at the centre of the latest doping crisis.

"The ACC just wanted to know about . . . Trent and Steve Dank," he said. "I have to say I had no firm knowledge of any of it."

On Mr Dank, Dr Willcourt said, "never under any circumstances did I hear a thing about him doing anything wrong".

Croad invested and worked at the Epigenx clinic after Dr Willcourt treated him for chronic injuries from his football days.

Dr Willcourt began his medical career in obstetrics and gynaecology and said his knowledge of hormones provided a natural segue into anti-ageing medicine, which advocates testosterone and growth hormone treatment to combat the effects of reduced hormone production in older men.

He spent most of his career in California, where anti-ageing medicine is well established. He returned to Australia as the medical director of Adelaide's Queen Elizabeth hospital before moving to Melbourne to establish a private practice.

Dr Willcourt said he was concerned criminals could infiltrate sport through the sport supplement industry. He said there was misinformation about the use of supplements and elite athletes were confused about what they could take under the World Anti-Doping Authority code.

Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority investigators have yet to establish whether the treatment program overseen by Mr Dank last year at Essendon breached the WADA code. Mr Dank denies he administered any banned substances to any players.

Dr Willcourt regularly prescribes two growth hormone boosting peptides banned by WADA and listed in the ACC report, CJC 1295 and Hexarelin. He said both should be legal for elite athletes and that WADA had a poor understanding of human growth hormone, which was more beneficial in helping athletes to heal than run faster.

"People should be allowed to repair. We have got it wrong because we are so afraid there might be some competitive edge and somehow that seems unfair and unsportsmanlike."
Although there is little doubt he has a vested interest, it does beg the question of whether peptides are fundamentally that different to painkillers that are commonplace within the AFL? Peptides themselves are only performance enhancing when the hard yards are actually put in - not that different to creatine, BCAAs, oral protein supplements etc.

[Mofra]

So why dob yourself in to ASADA?
Nothing is proven, that's true.
Surely alarm bells must be going off when you report yourself .


I think they get a 75% reduction by pleading guilty.
Instead of 2 years it's something like 6 months!
It will all come out in the cover up.:eek:
I know you've answered your own question here, but it does point to another question - if Essendon hierachy are found to be in the clear about what their players were taking, should they be sacked for gross incompetance?

I want the leaders at the Bulldogs - on and off the field - to know what the players are putting into their bodies, as many legal supps can have side effects that are worth noting (ie shortness of breath with GABA) and clubs have a duty of care towards players than extends beyond merely monitoring on-field performance.

[Remi Moses]

I know you've answered your own question here, but it does point to another question - if Essendon hierachy are found to be in the clear about what their players were taking, should they be sacked for gross incompetance?

I want the leaders at the Bulldogs - on and off the field - to know what the players are putting into their bodies, as many legal supps can have side effects that are worth noting (ie shortness of breath with GABA) and clubs have a duty of care towards players than extends beyond merely monitoring on-field performance.

No to question 1.
I guess what's frightening is that they just don't know.
I reckon we'll see the club doctor signing off on everything now.

[jeemak]

I know you've answered your own question here, but it does point to another question - if Essendon hierachy are found to be in the clear about what their players were taking, should they be sacked for gross incompetance?

I want the leaders at the Bulldogs - on and off the field - to know what the players are putting into their bodies, as many legal supps can have side effects that are worth noting (ie shortness of breath with GABA) and clubs have a duty of care towards players than extends beyond merely monitoring on-field performance.

Agree completely mate, and to be honest the most glaring issue out of the whole saga is the poor governance shown by Essendon's management. I don't think too many heads will roll, and most likely Weapon McGee and Dank will take the fall as rogue operators. The Essendon supporter group will swallow that, but they'll be so full any more BS won't be digested and further stuff ups will result in severe supporter backlash.


No to question 1.
I guess what's frightening is that they just don't know.
I reckon we'll see the club doctor signing off on everything now.

Shouldn't the club doctor be signing off on everyting that's pumped into a clubs' players anyway? I think that's the elephant in the room for the Essendon football club, and other clubs that have been lucky enough to have avoided any scrutiny to this point.

There's absolutely no excuse for a clubs medical team not completely understanding what's happening with its players medical or rehabilitation treatment, and reporting everything of the sort to those managing the football department.

[bornadog]

IV drip use at Windy Hill enough to breach doping law (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/more-news/iv-drip-use-at-windy-hill-enough-to-breach-doping-law/story-e6frf9jf-1226578316393)

ESSENDON seems certain to be found guilty of a breach of the AFL Anti-Doping Code if even one player admits being given legal intravenous infusions at Windy Hill.
Whether those infusions carried legal drugs or banned peptides, it is the manner in which they entered they body that would breach the AFL's code.

The AFL's code makes it clear intravenous infusions are "prohibited except for those legitimately received in the course of hospital admissions or clinical investigations".

Those breaches of the code - "prohibited methods" - are viewed as just as serious as using "prohibited substances", and attract a two-year ban.

It is alleged Essendon players were taken over the road from Windy Hill to a Botox clinic and given intravenous drips.

In his 7.30 TV interview this week, former Essendon staffer Stephen Dank said that the players had intravenous injections, not drips or infusions.

Injections are allowed if the volume of the syringe used is less than 50ml and the substance is legal.

"Oh, look they had intravenous injections for vitamin B and vitamin C, which are quite compliant with the WADA code," Dank said of Essendon's players.

But ASADA will investigate whether players were also given infusions, the use of which has been illegal since 2005 under the WADA code. The AFL's Anti-Doping Code refers to the intravenous infusions in the Chemical and Physical Manipulation section.

WADA's own documentation explains the ban on intravenous infusions since 2005, saying athletes can use drips to take steroids.

"IV infusion could provide a potential route for the administration of infused substances," it states.

Integrity officers for all clubs?

WADA's medical information supporting its ban on intravenous drips makes it clear that medical uses for intravenous drips must be "associated with medical emergencies and in-patient care".

One legal expert yesterday said on the condition of anonymity: "It is prohibited to have intravenous infusions. The allegation is they had them all year. It doesn't matter if it's water, or saline, or (steroids), the method being used is the issue."

Former ASADA boss Richard Ings told the Herald Sun yesterday Essendon could not justify intravenous injections as necessary for medical purposes, because prior approval was needed.

"Any athlete or player or trainer who needs to use a banned substance or banned method must get pre-approval from the Australian Sports Medical Advisory Committee before their treatment, and there is no retrospectivity," he said.
While the ASADA and AFL investigation into Essendon and biomechanist Dank could take months, there is some hope for Essendon.
Ings yesterday expressed doubt about the potential for blood from Essendon players to be flown across the world for tests on peptides. And the Australian Crime Commission conceded on Thursday it did not collect any information from wire taps about doping in sport during its 12-month investigation.

It means Dank was not caught in any incriminating evidence during phone conversations, and the players are unlikely to be found taking PEDs through blood tests.

Dank and Essendon continue to deny that any performance-enhancing drugs were used.

Essendon players could hope to use the AFL's own Anti-Doping Code to argue for a full discount, or "elimination" of their potential penalty. The AFL's code, which closely mirrors the WADA code, has a clause that provides for no penalty if the player can prove they bore "no fault" for drugs entering their system.

Both codes state the case must be "truly exceptional", but the AFL's rule 14.4 states the period of ineligibility can be eliminated if an individual "bears no fault of negligence for the violation". The clause is inserted for players who have their samples sabotaged.

AFL deputy chief executive Gillon McLachlan said last night the league has made contingency plans for a 17-team competition this year should Essendon be unable to compete.

"I think it is our responsibility to canvass and plan for every scenario," McLachlan said on Channel Nine.
"There is a technical scenario where, if every allegation was true and you took out and interpretation of the code and you took a certain set of timings then that could be true, so you have to plan for that."

But speaking on Channel Seven league boss Andrew Demetriou stated his confidence that Essendon would play out the 2013 season uninterrupted.

At this stage we've got nothing that indicates otherwise," Demetriou said.

[LostDoggy]

If I hear Richard Ings name mentioned one more time… he's the Michael Carr-Gregg of PEDs already.

[Happy Days]

At the moment this is nothing more than McCarthyism from the AFL and ASADA.

[jeemak]

At the moment this is nothing more than McCarthyism from the AFL and ASADA.

To be fair the AFL kind of got dragged into this by Essendon owning up at the death, and the ACC as well as polititians glamourising their past twelve months work.

Whilst the AFL has been sitting on its hands and purely running a long winded denial campaign for a number of years, I'm pretty sure they'd prefer everything to have stayed just the way it was before last Tuesday, and then last Thursday.

[Happy Days]

Whilst the AFL has been sitting on its hands and purely running a long winded denial campaign for a number of years, I'm pretty sure they'd prefer everything to have stayed just the way it was before last Tuesday, and then last Thursday.

I'd disagree with this; I don't think they've run a denial campaign, I think it was never really thought of as an issue, with recreational drugs much more prominently covered and "campaigned against". The only serious PED claims I can remember before this were Aker's again Michael Braun, and that was oushed aside as ridiculousness (correct me if I'm wrong here).

What do you think of ASADA's "there's drug cheats, but we can't prove it, but there definitely is!" line of argument? Think its really unfair to all the players to be tarred with the same brush like that, it just puts everyone under suspicion.

[Ghost Dog]

What do you all think of the idea of full time integrity officers at each club?

[Remi Moses]

At the moment this is nothing more than McCarthyism from the AFL and ASADA.

Essendon put it forward.
Anybody thinking its okay to stick a needle in a young persons stomach is away with the fairies.

[GVGjr]

What do you all think of the idea of full time integrity officers at each club?

Good in theory but I wonder how it would actually work.

[Maddog37]

Essendon put it forward.
Anybody thinking its okay to stick a needle in a young persons stomach is away with the fairies.


I agree with this Remi. Many people in AFL have lost sight of what is normal behavior.

[Ghost Dog]

Well said Remi. The fact is every club willl be looking carefully at the punishment handed out, if any.
What is deemed 'ok' will then have to be on the table at every club re performance improvement.

Do we want each club to be giving their players injections like this on a regular basis, regardless of the substance?

[jeemak]

I'm really not sure what the BFD is with injecting supplements. If it helps performance (within the rules), and there's no risk to player health what's the problem?

I think players should be given the option to take a variety of supplements across a variety of methods.

[Ghost Dog]

Can you give me an example of the type of injection you are talking about? That helps performance, is injected into the stomach, but is not illegal?

[jeemak]

Can you give me an example of the type of injection you are talking about? That helps performance, is injected into the stomach, but is not illegal?

Mate I'm not talking about anything specific. If you can tell me there's no benefit in administering supplements of any sort (legal or not) via an injection, then cool.

Though if it is an effective means by which legal treatments can be administered I don't see what the big deal is. They're adults.

[Ghost Dog]

Mate I'm not talking about anything specific. If you can tell me there's no benefit in administering supplements of any sort (legal or not) via an injection, then cool.

Though if it is an effective means by which legal treatments can be administered I don't see what the big deal is. They're adults.



Well they say they were vitamin injections. I'm no expert, but my Chinese doctor told me that taking vitamin supplements is just a poor replacement for proper diet.
If you take a bunch of vitamin C, the body just exits it anyway.
For all that bother of going to an external clinic, I am guessing it was something other than vitamin c.

There are lots of things that are' legal ' but not really in the spirit of the game.
if you think that it would be ok to have our players having regular off site visits for legal performance enhancing injections, then we just have different views about what competitive sport is about.

[jeemak]

I thought the issue Remi had was with injecting needles into a young person. All I was saying is I don't have an issue with players being injected in their stomachs.

[jeemak]

There are lots of things that are' legal ' but not really in the spirit of the game.
if you think that it would be ok to have our players having regular off site visits for legal performance enhancing injections, then we just have different views about what competitive sport is about.

Once again, I'd have no issue with it if there was player consent, no side-effects, complete disclosure and it was within the rules.

Just for the fun of it, explain to me what the issue would be of having players taking regular off-site visits to a clinic to undertake legal treatments? Is it that you just don't like needles?

[Ghost Dog]

I'm a bit confused. You are talking about ' treatments' on one hand, but do you mean to treat a specific condition or rather a course of injections?

I think its a bit of a fantasy, the situation you described. A performance enhancing substance, legal, no side effects. If it were, then everyone would do it and it would be a level playing field again. So what's the point? It just takes away the players time from working on basic skills like kicking the bloody thing.

I have a problem with anything that takes away from the integrity and fairness of the game. Injecting young people with substances to get them over the line sends the wrong message to our community.

And in case you hadn't noticed, Essendon has had a woeful few seasons despite all the money thrown at their sports science department.

[jeemak]

Well, regular trips to a clinic to receive treatment that aids recovery via an injection could be an example. Quickening recovery times allows players to do the things you regard as basic, but yet key more often. I'm not talking about getting juiced up here.

Whether the scenario I mentioned is fantasy right now, isn't really the point. I'm not qualified to assess that, and I suspect you're not either.

You're talking about the spirit of the game, or what attributes comprise competitive sport. So, if you're willing to explain to me what the issue with the above scenario would be, I'd appreciated it.

[jeemak]

Sorry, I see you've edited your original post. Let's leave it at that.

[Ghost Dog]

Fair enough. But the point still stands though that if it was legal, then all the clubs would do it and we would be back to a level playing field. Can't see the point.

[Remi Moses]

As a young person You wouldn't worry about it ( hey, if the club thinks its okay)
As a parent I'm wondering why on earth someone who has no medical qualifications is sticking a needle in my sons stomach .
Hird's condemned by his own words.
"I'm responsible for decisions made at this football club"
Regardless of the vigouress defence by "Hirdy's a great bloke " mates

[LostDoggy]

Well, regular trips to a clinic to receive treatment that aids recovery via an injection could be an example. Quickening recovery times allows players to do the things you regard as basic, but yet key more often. I'm not talking about getting juiced up here.

Whether the scenario I mentioned is fantasy right now, isn't really the point. I'm not qualified to assess that, and I suspect you're not either.

You're talking about the spirit of the game, or what attributes comprise competitive sport. So, if you're willing to explain to me what the issue with the above scenario would be, I'd appreciated it.

A lot of what the cyclists have been up to involves recovery. It doesn't help them ride faster, it helps them ride every day fresh as can be.

[jeemak]

Fair enough. But the point still stands though that if it was legal, then all the clubs would do it and we would be back to a level playing field. Can't see the point.

Do you know that each and every club isn't employing a similar tactic? Do you know that our club is completely clean?

TBH Ghotst Dog, you don't know anything. Just like me.

[jeemak]

As a young person You wouldn't worry about it ( hey, if the club thinks its okay)
As a parent I'm wondering why on earth someone who has no medical qualifications is sticking a needle in my sons stomach .
Hird's condemned by his own words.
"I'm responsible for decisions made at this football club"
Regardless of the vigouress defence by "Hirdy's a great bloke " mates

This is overly emotive.

I'd be very concerned if people without medical qualifications were pumping substances into anyone, trust me, you don't have to be a parent to know that's not cool.

I just don't see why under a controlled and professional setting, it can't be done succesfully.

[bornadog]

This is overly emotive.

I'd be very concerned if people without medical qualifications were pumping substances into anyone, trust me, you don't have to be a parent to know that's not cool.

I just don't see why under a controlled and professional setting, it can't be done succesfully.

If Essendon were pumping something into the players, you would think the medicos and football department staff are aware of it.

[Ghost Dog]

Do you know that each and every club isn't employing a similar tactic? Do you know that our club is completely clean?

TBH Ghotst Dog, you don't know anything. Just like me.

(?) through to the keeper.

Take Cerebrolysin, for example. comes from pigs brains, not a banned substance, but not yet trialled or ok'ed for use in Australia.
Yet you can get it on the internet easily. Not sure I would want my son to be injected with it, legal or not.

Sports science moves a few steps faster than the policing agencies and laws; it's a very murky area. The easiest way to prevent having to slap massive amounts of paperwork onto clubs and burden the code with more legislation is to put the responsibility for all this back in the hands of the club doctor.

BAS makes a good point with Cyclists and the use of drugs to assist recovery. Has not done their sport much good has it?

[Topdog]

(?) through to the keeper.

Take Cerebrolysin, for example. comes from pigs brains, not a banned substance, but not yet trialled or ok'ed for use in Australia.
Yet you can get it on the internet easily. Not sure I would want my son to be injected with it, legal or not.

If it hasn't been OK'ed for use in Australia it is illegal.

[Remi Moses]

This is overly emotive.

I'd be very concerned if people without medical qualifications were pumping substances into anyone, trust me, you don't have to be a parent to know that's not cool.

I just don't see why under a controlled and professional setting, it can't be done succesfully.

Did the doctors know? Have we got to a stage where we have to resort with sticking needles without knowing whether its legal or not?

[Ghost Dog]

If it hasn't been OK'ed for use in Australia it is illegal.

Absolutely, or so I would have thought. But there's a bunch of stuff in a sort of 'Grey area' of legislation. Stuff that's used for general health issues ( eg; aphrodisiacs ) that can theoretically be used to heal cartilage or stimulate growth.
Not something a club doctor is going to muck around with, but a Sports Scientist might.

[F'scary]

All football supporters should read Andrew Bolt's recent articles on the "drugs in sport" so-called scandal.

Interesting perspective.

[Twodogs]

All football supporters should read Andrew Bolt's recent articles on the "drugs in sport" so-called scandal.

Interesting perspective.


Bolt's perspective is slanted and he has an agenda.

[The Underdog]

All football supporters should read Andrew Bolt's recent articles on the "drugs in sport" so-called scandal.

Interesting perspective.

Usually I'd be an advocate of reading a wide range of perspectives and using them to form an informed opinion. But in this case Andrew Bolt is such an appalling *!*!*!*! I'd rather just sidestep his existence on the planet completely.

[Ghost Dog]

Who was it on here that admitted that despite loathing him, Kennet's opinion on an issue coincided with theirs? Now and then, fools get it right.

[Greystache]

Bolt's perspective is slanted and he has an agenda.

As opposed to all other journalists?

[Remi Moses]

All football supporters should read Andrew Bolt's recent articles on the "drugs in sport" so-called scandal.

Interesting perspective.

No thanks, rather eat my own vomit .

[Twodogs]

As opposed to all other journalists?




He's a columnist not a run of the mill journo. That means he expresses an opinion as opposed to merely reporting the news.

You dont think he's running an agenda?

[bornadog]

Bolt's perspective is slanted and he has an agenda.

Right wing nazi

[Greystache]

He's a columnist not a run of the mill journo. That means he expresses an opinion as opposed to merely reporting the news.

You dont think he's running an agenda?

I've no interest in what he writes, but almost all opinion pieces are written by journalists with an agenda. I don't see why this one would be disregarded for that reason alone.

[Twodogs]

I've no interest in what he writes, but almost all opinion pieces are written by journalists with an agenda. I don't see why this one would be disregarded for that reason alone.

Then there isn't really any point discussing it I guess.

[LostDoggy]

All football supporters should read Andrew Bolt's recent articles on the "drugs in sport" so-called scandal.

Interesting perspective.


Right wing nazi

I'd rather stick those needles Essendon are (allegedly) using in my eyes, thanks.

[Maddog37]

I read the article and it has some good points as usual mixed in with some of Bolts usual ravings.

Not sure why people are so close minded so as to not even read something recommended by a fellow woofer.

[Remi Moses]

The bloke's a conspiracy theorist .
Everything in the world is a "Leftist" conspiracy.
Complete crackpot.

[Ghost Dog]

He used to BE a leftist. He identified that there were a lack of voices on the right and thought by becoming the 'voice of the right' this would be an instant way to differentiate himself from the pack. He's an opportunistic idiot. Over the years, his pretence has hardened and made him bitter and twisted.

[jeemak]

The more I read of this particular commentator the more I forget how much I despised her. It's funny how party allegiance and political nessecity can sway the actions of a person. This article touches on a few of my thoughts on the whole saga:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/how-the-reputation-of-australian-sport-was-needlessly-trashed-20130217-2el62.html

The reputation of Australian sport, both domestically and internationally, has been comprehensively trashed. Players, coaches, administrators and health professionals are all lumped under a dark cloud. One can only hope there is some as-yet-unidentified imperative that demanded such a comprehensive do-over of just about everybody involved in sport.

Drugs in sport is a topical issue and a sure bet for media interest. The Australian Crime Commission report would have received widespread media coverage in any event. Just the mention of drugs in sport or organised crime would have done that. Link the two and there's a certain story.

Organising a press conference with two federal ministers and a bevy of senior sports people added drama and the sense of an emergency. That ensured the coverage would be dramatic and sensational. Stirring the media up in this instance was like taking candy from a baby. Both ministers knew that.

The Crime Commission is apparently hamstrung in terms of being able to release names of players or clubs. Both ministers - Sport Minister Kate Lundy and Justice Minister Jason Clare - knew that, too. They understood that everyone was going to be tarred. People in sport were left with this damaging story running wild and unable to clear their names. The ministers must also have known the story would whip around the world, leaving all our sports people and our national reputation tarnished. The word reckless comes to mind.

Why then did they act in a way that magnified the damage to morale and reputations, rather than mitigate it? Why didn't they have information to hand that would at least put a realistic perspective on the story? For example, if it is correct that in the AFL there is one club and one player from one other club realistically under a cloud, then why not say that? Why not for each sport give an indication of the proportion under suspicion?

The damage is not limited to players, coaches and administrators, although that in itself is significant. Just imagine if everyone in your workplace was under suspicion for being a cheat or an illegal drug user. How would you feel? As the days go by, tension builds. With the mud chucked so liberally around, everyone is wondering if their club or one of their players will be next. Doubt is the most toxic of all weapons. Humans hate it. Morale takes a beating. It would be no fun.

The families of all these people worry about both the well-being and the reputation of their loved ones. Beyond that, of course, there are the sponsors. Quite rightly, they don't want to be sponsoring cheats.

Illicit or performance-enhancing drugs in sport are a bad thing. Shining a light on that is a laudable. Sadly, the ministers failed to shine a nice sharp clear light on the problem. Instead, they just chucked a lot of mud around, over everyone.

The whole scenario looked as though it was done for the purpose of getting headlines. After all, the media spotlight on drugs in sport is much more beneficial to the government than more news about union corruption or Wayne Swan's incompetence. Remember, the media's focus can affect the results of opinion polls.

No doubt with that in mind, the Minister for Sport put on her best steely glare, looked at the camera and, in a show of misplaced bravado and confidence, purported to tell the crooks and the cheats that their time was up. But saying ''If you cheat we will catch you'' is hardly likely to scare the pants off a drug dealer who hasn't been caught so far. The very existence and the content of the report indicates that in fact these people haven't been caught.

Presumably authorities already have all the evidence they can acquire covertly. Let's hope so because the minister has, with her show of bravado, put every drug runner on red alert. Now the crooks will be much more careful. If they can destroy evidence they will. If people need to leave the country they will have done so. Those who can will lie low for a while.

Sure, players and staff who are under suspicion can be interviewed. So they should be. But regrettably, thanks to this media extravaganza, the element of surprise has gone. The bad guys have been given time to get their story in order, to cross-check with each other and thus impede an investigation. It is extraordinarily unusual for law enforcement investigations to be enhanced by pre-warning the crooks through the media.

The problem the government knew about (it funded the inquiry) is worse than it thought. That tells us the current policy settings are not working. But if there has been an announcement detailing new policy settings, I missed it. More money may not be needed. But if it is, it hasn't been committed.

If the media splash had been used to back up new, well-thought-out policy initiatives, it might have served a purpose. Surely this was not done to soften up the Finance Minister for extra money in pre-budget negotiations. Perhaps it was nothing more than a case of grab the headlines now, think later.

Prior to this attack on sporting reputations around Australia, the sad fact that some people in sport use performance-enhancing or illegal drugs was known and deplored. The media management of this has simply ensured that many people now suspect everyone is involved. That seems to be all that has changed. Plenty of mud was thrown around. No mop and bucket was in sight.

It is ironic that in the name of getting fair play in sport, so many innocent people have been recklessly put under suspicion. That doesn't seem to be playing fair at all.



Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/how-the-reputation-of-australian-sport-was-needlessly-trashed-20130217-2el62.html#ixzz2LLS65Buh

[hujsh]

I read the article and it has some good points as usual mixed in with some of Bolts usual ravings.

Not sure why people are so close minded so as to not even read something recommended by a fellow woofer.

I think most people here would know enough of Bolt to form their own idea about the worth of his opinion. No matter who recommends his articles I'm not interested not because I'm closed minded but because I've seen enough of his work to know not to bother.

[jeemak]

I think most people here would know enough of Bolt to form their own idea about the worth of his opinion. No matter who recommends his articles I'm not interested not because I'm closed minded but because I've seen enough of his work to know not to bother.

It's funny, as soon as I found out about the stuff he writes I had to check in from time to time. You know, irrespective of whether you think he's a lunatic you kind of need to know what he's up to, just so you can stay in touch with the people he obviously appeals to.

[Maddog37]

Simply closing the door to people or ideas is short sighted though. They might write crap 99% of the time and I get the point regarding Bolt but you never know what you might learn from strange sources at different times. Each to their own though as I now sound like I am preaching.:o

[F'scary]

Thank you Jeemak, I had not seen there was an article from former Liberal minister Amanda Truckboulder. All very interesting. Time will tell.

[Twodogs]

Thank you Jeemak, I had not seen there was an article from former Liberal minister Amanda Truckboulder. All very interesting. Time will tell.


Worst of all she's probably a Crows supporter.



Now could we could get back to bagging Essendon again?

[Bulldog Joe]

Worst of all she's probably a Crows supporter.

Actually on the board at Port Adelaide

[bornadog]

Hird Link to Dr Ageless (http://www.theage.com.au/national/police-quizzed-star-on-his-payments-20130220-2erv4.html)

EXCLUSIVE

Shane Charter, Dr Ageless, outside the County Court this week. Photo: Wayne Taylor
ESSENDON coach James Hird was questioned by police in 2004 about a biochemist - known as Dr Ageless - who was later jailed for major drug offences and has been linked to the club's supplements program.

Fairfax Media can reveal that Hird and fellow Brownlow Medallist Shane Woewodin and other stars, including Bulldogs Luke Darcy, Scott West and Simon Garlick, were listed as prosecution witnesses for Shane Charter's trial in 2006.
It is believed the players' evidence was needed to rebut Charter's possible explanation that money seized, including more than $500,000 cash, came from legitimate work as a personal trainer and dietary adviser.

They were not ultimately called because Charter later pleaded guilty to charges of importing pseudoephedrine - with an estimated street-level value of between $13 million and $30 million - and ephedrine, trafficking a commercial quantity of pseudoephedrine and trafficking mostly steroid agents including testosterone and nandrolone.

He also agreed to become a Crown witness.
Hird said in a statement to police he used Charter as a consultant from December 2002, to advise on dietary and nutritional matters and had met him 10 to 15 times over a year.

He said Charter, recently linked to the provision of vitamin supplements to Essendon and its former sports science chief Stephen Dank, never recommended any product that was not publicly available over the counter at retail outlets.
Hird also stated that at no time did Charter offer, discuss or produce any illegal substances and had sought clearance of any product from the Australian Sports Drug Agency and the club. He said he paid Charter $4000 to $5000.
Fairfax Media can report today details of Charter's appearance after a court order imposed in 2007 that suppressed all information was lifted because a judge in the County Court ruled it was no longer necessary.

Charter, 45, unrepresented on Monday, opposed the application and on Wednesday his lawyer, Costas Killias, told Judge John Smallwood that alleged breaches of the order by Fairfax Media meant he could not pre-protect himself and his family from possible consequences of being revealed as a Crown witness.
Police at the time did not regard threats to Charter as seriously as he did.
Charter, a champion powerlifter, imported the pseudoephedrine, a precursor chemical for methamphetamine, from Malaysia between December 2003 and April 2004, while a salesman for a Port Melbourne pharmaceutical company.

He also trafficked steroid-based agents, that included testosterone and nandrolone.
A prosecutor told Judge Smallwood that some of the notes in his $500,000 were ''still damp and smelt of dirt indicating that the money had previously been buried''.
In his sentencing remarks, Judge Smallwood noted that the list of Crown witnesses included many ''notable footballers'' and he added: ''You clearly were very good at what you did and gave advice to high-powered people and organisations.''
But he reckoned why Charter started ''high order'' offending ''is beyond me'', and while greed was ''easy to say'' it appeared ''virtually none of the proceeds had been spent'' as there was no sign of ''enrichment''.

Charter was jailed for four years with a minimum of two years while a co-offender was also jailed but the man he implicated was acquitted.

The Western Bulldogs confirmed that its CEO Simon Garlick received ''limited advice'' from Charter that ''purely related to his nutrition and diet'' and there had been no further contact with him.
The Age could not reach Hird for comment.

[jeemak]

This might be a timely reminder for some that the news can turn against you pretty quickly.........

[F'scary]

Worst of all she's probably a Crows supporter.



Now could we could get back to bagging Essendon again?

Ok, now that this supplements scandal has broken, it explains why their players look like those high yield bovine breeds:

352

353

[LostDoggy]

Actually on the board at Port Adelaide

I once had the immense pleasure of meeting her — and telling her she was a “useless twat” — when she visited my ship. It was worth the 21 days’ restriction of privileges/extra duties I copped.

[jeemak]

I once had the immense pleasure of meeting her — and telling her she was a “useless twat” — when she visited my ship. It was worth the 21 days’ restriction of privileges/extra duties I copped.

Congratulations on improving the current political state of affairs within this country. :p

How did you view her article and comments?

[KT31]

Just recieved a email with a flyer re: anti-doping from the AFL.
Reminding us that all players who play the game come under their Anti-doping laws.
Its the elite atheletes who are taking the suppliments and not your backyard footballers.
I can only speak from my clubs point of view, but would deal with this issue and others, alot more harshly than the the Spineless AFL.
They should worry about thier own backyard and not be concerned with ours.

[LostDoggy]

Congratulations on improving the current political state of affairs within this country. :p

How did you view her article and comments?

I thought she had a point when talking about the political headline grabbing, yet aside from being on the board for Port Adelaide I fail to see why her opinion on the matter is important. Looks to me like headline grabbing.

[bornadog]

Dossier reveals full drugs program at Essendon (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/teams/dosier-reveals-full-drugs-program-at-essendon/story-e6frf9l6-1226632641488)

If this is true I wonder if Demitriou has the balls to throw the book at them?

[Remi Moses]

The whole announcement was perhaps a little over the top.
Some in the "Boys Club" ( sorry media) have lambasted the whole process of the investigation.
Hello Mark Fine SEN
What's the difference between our athletes and the East German athletes of the 70's?
Both not knowing they were administering banned substances!
Of course their athletes were "cheats" and should be kicked out of sport.
Naturally Australian athletes "didn't know" what they were administering !
You bare the utmost responsibility of what goes in your body!!End of Story

[Eastdog]

ASADA have not handled this investigation very well at all. If there is evidence that Essendon players have used they need to ban them to send the message that If you do this you will suffer the consequences.

[jeemak]

ASADA have not handled this investigation very well at all. If there is evidence that Essendon players have used they need to ban them to send the message that If you do this you will suffer the consequences.

Eastdog, ASADA is awaiting the opportunity to interview Essendon playes as one of the final steps of their investigation. They can't penalise players/club etc until this aspect is completed, and there might be one or two more steps for them to take before they can say they have enough information to determine if banned substances were used.

[Eastdog]

Eastdog, ASADA is awaiting the opportunity to interview Essendon playes as one of the final steps of their investigation. They can't penalise players/club etc until this aspect is completed, and there might be one or two more steps for them to take before they can say they have enough information to determine if banned substances were used.

Fair enough jeemak. Do you reckon though the media are making this bigger than it is.

[jeemak]

Fair enough jeemak. Do you reckon though the media are making this bigger than it is.

It's probably like anything mate. Some truths, some half truths, some untruths etc. I did think the initial media coverage was ridiculous.

I think there's some people leaking some pretty serious information to Caroline Wilson, and like her or not she doesn't normally go this hard if there's not reasonable basis for doing so, particularly considering the consequences for all involved.

[GVGjr]

Dossier reveals full drugs program at Essendon (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/afl/teams/dosier-reveals-full-drugs-program-at-essendon/story-e6frf9l6-1226632641488)

If this is true I wonder if Demitriou has the balls to throw the book at them?

Mark Robinson has been running a campaign (almost daily) that distances Hird from direct responsibility which I think is a crock. I think the fall guys have already been identified and the main focus is to now make sure the Golden Boy isn't in the firing line.

With the way Hird knifed Knights before taking his job, the way that Thompson broke his contract at the Cats but ended up at the Bombers and they way this scandal has been managed to protect Hird at all cost I now don't trust this as anything other than an exercise of diverting the blame and making sure justice is seen to be done.

[lemmon]

Mark Robinson has been running a campaign (almost daily) that distances Hird from direct responsibility which I think is a crock. I think the fall guys have already been identified and the main focus is to now make sure the Golden Boy isn't in the firing line.

With the way Hird knifed Knights before taking his job, the way that Thompson broke his contract at the Cats but ended up at the Bombers and they way this scandal has been managed to protect Hird at all cost I now don't trust this as anything other than an exercise of diverting the blame and making sure justice is seen to be done.

Fully agree with that, the Herald Sun's silence has been obvious, spearheaded by Robinson himself. If those text messages are true though Hirdy is going down with the ship, no deflecting from those

[azabob]

Mark Robinson has been running a campaign (almost daily) that distances Hird from direct responsibility which I think is a crock. I think the fall guys have already been identified and the main focus is to now make sure the Golden Boy isn't in the firing line.

With the way Hird knifed Knights before taking his job, the way that Thompson broke his contract at the Cats but ended up at the Bombers and they way this scandal has been managed to protect Hird at all cost I now don't trust this as anything other than an exercise of diverting the blame and making sure justice is seen to be done.

At the other paper Caroline Wilson is evening it out by saying Hird has to be held accountable, but of course she is criticised from here to kingdom come.

[Eastdog]

It's probably like anything mate. Some truths, some half truths, some untruths etc. I did think the initial media coverage was ridiculous.

I think there's some people leaking some pretty serious information to Caroline Wilson, and like her or not she doesn't normally go this hard if there's not reasonable basis for doing so, particularly considering the consequences for all involved.

Yeah the initial media coverage was over the top.

[Remi Moses]

At the other paper Caroline Wilson is evening it out by saying Hird has to be held accountable, but of course she is criticised from here to kingdom come.

Great point . Hird at one of the door stop frenzies said he was responsible for what happens at this club. Wilson and Smith went hard and at least stood by their digs.

[Ghost Dog]

The whole announcement was perhaps a little over the top.
Some in the "Boys Club" ( sorry media) have lambasted the whole process of the investigation.
Hello Mark Fine SEN
What's the difference between our athletes and the East German athletes of the 70's?
Both not knowing they were administering banned substances!
Of course their athletes were "cheats" and should be kicked out of sport.
Naturally Australian athletes "didn't know" what they were administering !
You bare the utmost responsibility of what goes in your body!!End of Story

I was in the supermarket the other day. In the hair section it has this stuff for strengthening hair. It has a warning label. If you are a sportsman, do not use. It will come up in hair samples during drug testing.
Exactly Remi - people are responsible for what goes into their bodies.

[Maddog37]

Surely if you are getting weekly injections you must be a bit suss on it all.

[Ghost Dog]

Going to be messy. But please AFL, show you have the minerals to make the hard call, if they are guilty.

[jeemak]

Surely if you are getting weekly injections you must be a bit suss on it all.

I don't understand why everyone has issues with injections? I mean, I saw Rocky IV just like everyone else and the connotation tabled when Ivan Drago injected was that it was dirty and unfair. But does that have to be the case?

Why is ingesting a tablet or capsule less likely to result in you doing something you shouldn't be doing?

[jeemak]

Mark Robinson has been running a campaign (almost daily) that distances Hird from direct responsibility which I think is a crock. I think the fall guys have already been identified and the main focus is to now make sure the Golden Boy isn't in the firing line.

With the way Hird knifed Knights before taking his job, the way that Thompson broke his contract at the Cats but ended up at the Bombers and they way this scandal has been managed to protect Hird at all cost I now don't trust this as anything other than an exercise of diverting the blame and making sure justice is seen to be done.

The only people that are blind to it are Essendon supporters.

If there's been breaches, which is looking a little more likely every day then Hird has to fall on his sword. He's plainly culpable, as is every operational decision maker within the entire organisation. There cannot be any getting out of it, on any level irrespective of what Mark Robinson wants.

[AndrewP6]

I don't understand why everyone has issues with injections? I mean, I saw Rocky IV just like everyone else and the connotation tabled when Ivan Drago injected was that it was dirty and unfair. But does that have to be the case?

When the injections contain banned substances, yes it does


Why is ingesting a tablet or capsule less likely to result in you doing something you shouldn't be doing?

In my book they're equally wrong, if the substance/s being ingested are illegal. I'm no expert, but I believe injected substances can be stronger/faster acting.

[jeemak]

When the injections contain banned substances, yes it does

In my book they're equally wrong, if the substance/s being ingested are illegal. I'm no expert, but I believe injected substances can be stronger/faster acting.

Your first point is obviously valid AP6. I'll never argue against that. But what's wrong with taking legal substances via injection?

Agree on your second point as well, and think that injection is a great way of delivering fast acting legal substances if you have the stomach for it.

I suppose I'm just a little flummoxed by anyone having an issue with injections over any other delivery method. It's kind of not seeing the forest for the trees as far as I'm concerned. Essentially the delivery method is inconsequential, it's the substance and the intent that I'm concerned about.

[boydogs]

I'm no expert, but I believe injected substances can be stronger/faster acting.

By some margin. They are also more dangerous, the filtration done when ingesting something to deal with the nasties and water things down doesn't apply, hence you are far, far more likely to overdose on something you are injecting.

[jeemak]

By some margin. They are also more dangerous, the filtration done when ingesting something to deal with the nasties and water things down doesn't apply, hence you are far, far more likely to overdose on something you are injecting.

Of course you are, but we're not talking about smack or meth here.

[AndrewP6]

Your first point is obviously valid AP6. I'll never argue against that. But what's wrong with taking legal substances via injection?

Agree on your second point as well, and think that injection is a great way of delivering fast acting legal substances if you have the stomach for it.

I suppose I'm just a little flummoxed by anyone having an issue with injections over any other delivery method. It's kind of not seeing the forest for the trees as far as I'm concerned. Essentially the delivery method is inconsequential, it's the substance and the intent that I'm concerned about.

Maybe the dangers of the injecting itself, i.e - the possibility of dirty needles etc.

[jeemak]

Maybe the dangers of the injecting itself, i.e - the possibility of dirty needles etc.

For goodness sake.

If Essendon were sharing dirty needles then even I couldn't see the black comedy in it. These injections were administered by people being paid a shitload of cash to administer them. It wasn't a bunch of Mark Renton's and Tommy's sitting around sharing junk.

[AndrewP6]

For goodness sake.

If Essendon were sharing dirty needles then even I couldn't see the black comedy in it. These injections were administered by people being paid a shitload of cash to administer them. It wasn't a bunch of Mark Renton's and Tommy's sitting around sharing junk.

It wasn't my thoughts I was just supposing.

[jeemak]

It wasn't my thoughts I was just supposing.

Fair enough Bruv.

[boydogs]

Of course you are, but we're not talking about smack or meth here.

Just providing some context.

[jeemak]

Just providing some context.

That's cool, sorry if it seemed I was attacking. I just get a bit frustrated by the problems people have with injections when the bigger picture is the content.

[Mofra]

I don't understand why everyone has issues with injections? I mean, I saw Rocky IV just like everyone else and the connotation tabled when Ivan Drago injected was that it was dirty and unfair. But does that have to be the case?

Why is ingesting a tablet or capsule less likely to result in you doing something you shouldn't be doing?
Two major issues:

1. There are many substances that break down when injested orally but are effective when injected or delivered sub-cutaneously, and these are often harder to detect as they are often just naturally occurring compounds in the body (even tot he extent of the blood doping system for cycling in the 90s).

2. IV use is banned in the AFL after the Brisbane Lions used IVs extensively for hydration during their glory years. Even if it's just vitamins, as I understand it that's compliant with WADA it still may breach AFL rules.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Scenario A. Essendon is found not guilty.
(Has Demetriou's grubby hands all over it.)

Scenario B. Essendon is found guilty. All guilty players serve a 6 month ban in the off season.
Watson is found guilty but keeps his Brownlow.

(Has Demetriou's grubby hands all over it.)

Scenario C.................?

[Maddog37]

At the end of the day the drive to push the envelope and be succesful at any cost is the cause of Essendons problems. People like Dank etc are just a symptom of the problem.

[Greystache]

At the end of the day the drive to push the envelope and be succesful at any cost is the cause of Essendons problems. People like Dank etc are just a symptom of the problem.

Yet teams seem to accept having numerous forwards in their team that can't kick for goal as part and parcel of life. They even acknowledge they don't do much work to improve it, it's bizarre.

They constantly talk about the strive to find that 1% advantage over other teams such as this, then they go out on the weekend and lose by a goal because they kick 10.18.

Some parts of the game is on the cutting edge but some is stuck in the 60s

[DOG GOD]

This is what I'm hoping....
Hird to be found guilty and sacked.
Players in question suspended for 16 weeks (during the season)
Watson to lose his brownlow.

My mum is an Essendon supporter and she hates me right now :)

[Ghost Dog]

At the end of the day the drive to push the envelope and be succesful at any cost is the cause of Essendons problems. People like Dank etc are just a symptom of the problem.

Well said. You don't let people waltz in and start mucking around jabbing players willy nilly if you run a professional organisation.

[Max469]

Scenario A. Essendon is found not guilty.
(Has Demetriou's grubby hands all over it.)

Scenario B. Essendon is found guilty. All guilty players serve a 6 month ban in the off season.
Watson is found guilty but keeps his Brownlow.

(Has Demetriou's grubby hands all over it.)

Scenario C.................?

I would be surprised if this did not happen. After all it is Essendon

[Dancin' Douggy]

I would be surprised if this did not happen. After all it is Essendon

exactly..........and Melbourne didn't tank.

[boydogs]

Some parts of the game is on the cutting edge but some is stuck in the 60s

Forwards can't just sit in the goalsquare and wait for the ball these days, they are tired from running around and shooting from further out.

[Greystache]

Forwards can't just sit in the goalsquare and wait for the ball these days, they are tired from running around and shooting from further out.

That's just not right, players are missing simple set shots just as they were 50 years ago. It has not improved at all, even as full time professionals. Surely you're suggesting players that miss from 30m out directly in front 1 minute into the game are exhausted?

[Ghost Dog]

There was some article from Hackermanis a few years ago that showed just that. Players are less accurate as they used to be.

[Dry Rot]

That's just not right, players are missing simple set shots just as they were 50 years ago. It has not improved at all, even as full time professionals. Surely you're suggesting players that miss from 30m out directly in front 1 minute into the game are exhausted?

Arguably there's still a lot of poor field kicking while not under pressure too, still.

[LostDoggy]

There was some article from Hackermanis a few years ago that showed just that. Players are less accurate as they used to be.

Was that the one where he blamed the Ball itself?

[Remi Moses]

Funny headline on Back Page lead.com
Ziggy's report spares the stardust.
On a serious note has anyone seen Dr Bruce Reid's letter?
I'll take a wild stab in the dark.
It was last seen in thousands of pieces in what's known as a shredder!!

[Ghost Dog]

Was that the one where he blamed the Ball itself?

lol. Aker blames everyone but himself....

[GVGjr]

So one of the fall guys has been made accountable and Ian Robson steps down from his position of the CEO at Essendon

Robson is a good guy, a guy with a conscience and a heart. He has taken one for the team because as the CEO he should have known what was going on, he should have known what the players were injected with.

He offered his resignation early in the piece but the board didn't accept it. He offered it again because the Switkowski report said as CEO he should have known and this time the board agreed with him. Fair enough I suppose.

Begs the question though of the two that did know about the programme, the two that oversaw the programme and the two that have taken no real level of ownership of this debacle since it came to our attention.

The Golden Boy and the Bomber will probably continue to get a free pass on this while someone works out a way that they can get a reprimand that gives the impression that justice has been done and therefore they can continue to coach.

I don't understand why the guy with the heart gets the chop and why the focus isn't on the two that instigated things. Actually I do understand why.

[jeemak]

It was always going to play out that way.

Michael Gleeson's article sums it up very well:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/robson-had-to-go-but-whos-next-20130523-2k2on.html

Essendon will reap what they sow on this. They have the chance to do set a standard of accountability that applies to everyone across their entire club. They won't take it.

[Remi Moses]

Robson didn't know anything about it , so he takes one for the team.
Not surprising

[LostDoggy]

lol. Aker blames everyone but himself....
I know it is funny. But that was a serious question. Aker did write an article a few years back where he was indicating that the ball was to blame for poor goal kicking. Don't you remember? Something about the sponsor logo on it making it slippery.