Ayce Cordy

[Eastdog]

Is this a make or break year for him or should we give persist in him? With Will Minson our number 1 ruck what role would he be suited to?

[Remi Moses]

Hey EastDog, do you think you'll have all listed players up before seasons start?
Genuinely worried that Ayce won't get there.
I know he has time on his side, but just haven't seen any glimmer yet.
As for his position I think he's a ruck who could play forward at a pinch.
He looks lost up forward so far.

[Eastdog]

Hey EastDog, do you think you'll have all listed players up before seasons start?
Genuinely worried that Ayce won't get there.
I know he has time on his side, but just haven't seen any glimmer yet.
As for his position I think he's a ruck who could play forward at a pinch.
He looks lost up forward so far.

Just the ones I think need to show something and ill start with Cordy and Howard.

[LostDoggy]

Persist.

[Dry Rot]

Just the ones I think need to show something and ill start with Cordy and Howard.

This thread is your friend

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=11552

[Eastdog]

This thread is your friend

http://www.woof.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=11552

Should of just posted there.

[Rocco Jones]

I don't think Ayce will make it however there seems to be no real competition if we are going to go with anything resembling modern 2nd ruck role.

Anyone who pays attention to my posting will know how obsessed I have been by the difference between the 1st and 2nd ruck roles, now it has spread to pretty much the whole league.

I can understand how development sides could ignore the 2nd ruck tactic as it's mainly about results and you could just develop 2 rucks however I don't think it works. I don't think it is good for Tom Campbell to spend the majority of his TOG in a position that he isn't suited to and it spreads to the rest of the team due to the pressure it puts on the team's structure.

The thing is, Ayce does so very little up forward. Not sure too many AFL sides in my lifetime have had worse short term KP forward options.

For mine it's a key-example of how recruiting a mature age player can help kids develop. Easier said than done of course.

[F'scary]

I think he has potential to be a top line ruckman. He needs to develop his craft in the 2's. Perhaps 50 games as the reserves ruckman is what he needs. It will be a tragic mistake if Macca keeps persisting with him as the FF this year. Don't want to see him there again.

[LostDoggy]

I think he has potential to be a top line ruckman. He needs to develop his craft in the 2's. Perhaps 50 games as the reserves ruckman is what he needs. It will be a tragic mistake if Macca keeps persisting with him as the FF this year. Don't want to see him there again.

It all depends on where Macca sees him in years to come. It's obvious to all that Ayce is struggling, but Macca is the type of coach that will deliberately leave him there. He's a “throw the kid in the deep end and watch him learn” coach.

[Remi Moses]

Show a sign or something pleeeeease!

[The Bulldogs Bite]

It all depends on where Macca sees him in years to come. It's obvious to all that Ayce is struggling, but Macca is the type of coach that will deliberately leave him there. He's a “throw the kid in the deep end and watch him learn” coach.

Sometimes this principle does more harm than good, though. In my opinion, it only works if the kid is actually improving and showing something. I think Roughy at FB, Talia, Pearce, JJ, Wallis on Mitchell etc. are better examples of this.

For mine, Cordy is not a FF and never will be. Simply doesn't portray any natural forward instinct. He doesn't lead and he rarely gets off the ground in marking situations, much less even crash a pack. This is typical of ruckmen who are sent forward -- Minson is a bit better at it, but Campbell is as bad as Cordy.

Needs to play at Williamstown as a ruckmen who rests forward, not the other way around, if he's any chance to make the grade. Unfortunately, although he's 200cms+ he doesn't have the strength to compete in the ruck and considering it's year 5 that's a big concern.

[jeemak]

Posted this in another thread. Check 2min 15sec.

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2013-03-11/nab-cup-highlights-wb-v-fre.workstation

Clean take below the knees, fake then goal. That's what I want to see Ayce do as he grows into his body.

I'm absolutely staggered that people think Cordy should be physically imposing himself on contests at this stage of his career. I get that he should lead more, though part of that might be an instruction issue.

As he gets stronger and more confident the other stuff will come.

[Ghost Dog]

For mine, Cordy is not a FF and never will be.

.


He's struggling, but the coaches know what they're doing and if they thought he had zero chance they wouldn't be playing him.


Posted this in another thread. Check 2min 15sec.

http://www.westernbulldogs.com.au/video/2013-03-11/nab-cup-highlights-wb-v-fre.workstation

Clean take below the knees, fake then goal.


I was a bit surprised to see him do it actually. Nice post.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

He's struggling, but the coaches know what they're doing and if they thought he had zero chance they wouldn't be playing him.

Coaches aren't always right, even the best of them get it wrong.

It'll be interesting to see where Roberts is played. If he's developed as a forward in the VFL and impresses, their hand will be forced to replace Cordy.

Otherwise, Ayce is simply lucky there's nobody else, which only further emphasizes our desperate need to draft a quality KPF.

[jeemak]

TBB, I think we've already drafted one in Jones and we'll have a second one in Stringer (who for a lack of height still stands over 6ft 3inch, and is built like a bull).

Ayce isn't ever going to be a KPF in the true sense. He's not being played at this point to become one. He's simply being given games to ramp up his experience as a forward until he puts on enough weight to take some consistent time in the ruck.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

TBB, I think we've already drafted one in Jones and we'll have a second one in Stringer (who for a lack of height still stands over 6ft 3inch, and is built like a bull).

Ayce isn't ever going to be a KPF in the true sense. He's not being played at this point to become one. He's simply being given games to ramp up his experience as a forward until he puts on enough weight to take some consistent time in the ruck.

I can't see him ever putting on enough size to handle ruck duties, and that's without delving into other areas in his game that are severely lacking and are extremely important for any ruckman.

In regards to Jones/Stringer, I still think we need a genuine FF. I think Jones can be a solid CHF, he certainly does his best work up the ground. Probably need more time to figure out Stringer's position, but I think he could push into the midfield and be versatile in a Goodes/Pavlich sense. Not saying he'll be as good as them, but I see him perhaps playing a similar role.

[Greystache]

In regards to Jones/Stringer, I still think we need a genuine FF. I think Jones can be a solid CHF, he certainly does his best work up the ground. Probably need more time to figure out Stringer's position, but I think he could push into the midfield and be versatile in a Goodes/Pavlich sense. Not saying he'll be as good as them, but I see him perhaps playing a similar role.

You never can say for sure how players will develop, but I do know that Stringer was drafted as a full forward. His ability to push up the ground or do a stint through the midfield aren't what appealed to us about him, it was his ability to mark one out and kick goals.

[jeemak]

I can't see him ever putting on enough size to handle ruck duties, and that's without delving into other areas in his game that are severely lacking and are extremely important for any ruckman.

In regards to Jones/Stringer, I still think we need a genuine FF. I think Jones can be a solid CHF, he certainly does his best work up the ground. Probably need more time to figure out Stringer's position, but I think he could push into the midfield and be versatile in a Goodes/Pavlich sense. Not saying he'll be as good as them, but I see him perhaps playing a similar role.

Agree to disagree with Ayce. He's put on 20kg in his first few years, and he'll have a few more to add to push him to the 105 mark. His strength in his shoulders will be the most important thing over time, along with his core. It's not going to happen tomorrow, it might happen next year. We'll see how we go.

Stringer's a FF. He was good enough to play through other positions as a junior, but as he matures he's going to show how good he can be in the forward line.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Agree to disagree with Ayce. He's put on 20kg in his first few years, and he'll have a few more to add to push him to the 105 mark. His strength in his shoulders will be the most important thing over time, along with his core. It's not going to happen tomorrow, it might happen next year. We'll see how we go.

Stringer's a FF. He was good enough to play through other positions as a junior, but as he matures he's going to show how good he can be in the forward line.

By the time Ayce gets his body to the size it needs to be, he'll be getting ready to retire :p

In all seriousness, 20kg is a hell of a lot -- obviously not all of it is muscle, but it's always much harder to put on weight after the initial few years of resistance training -- especially considering how many calories AFL footballers burn. He is in year 5 and is still getting pushed around by players half his size at times, the odds of him building a frame similar to Roughy/Campbell/Minson etc. are low.

People often point to Fletcher as an example of a player with great strength/very lean build, but he uses his mobility and agility (among many other things eg. footy smarts) to spoil and is more of an 'exception' to the rule, if that makes sense.

The reality is some body types won't put on mass like others. Unfortunately for Ayce, I think he falls under that category and I don't see that changing for him to suddenly be able to compete with AFL ruckmen. It's also worth noting that his mobility/agility has taken a huge blow since adding on 20kgs -- he is light years behind Minson/Roughy/Campbell etc. in this area.

I can't think of too many super lean ruckman 24 y.o and above that can cut it at the top level.

FWIW Grant is in the exact same position but he does at least have elite pace/agility that can see him play as a 'small' forward. Whether he actually makes it or not is another debate.

[jeemak]

I suppose where Ayce gets some concessions is because his first two years were completely ruined by surgery and rehabilitation.

I agree that he's going to struggle putting on the last few kg's of mass, and even if he does it will be strength that will eventually push him over the line to make him competitive.

Judging such a skinny and clearly under developed player as a fifth year player is fine, but not taking into account the first two years of his career as being written off is a little bit short sighted.

As for other attributes, check out the video I posted. If in all seriousness you can't see that he isn't just a bean pole weakling that's yet to develop then I give up.

[always right]

Wow....if that was a highlights package, imagine what the lowlights looked like:D Some of our finishing after some good lead up work was a little disheartening. I know this week is just a practice match but can you have a season defining practice match? We really need to give supporters something to hang onto going into round one and a strong performance with a near full strength team against the tigers is imperative.

[Sedat]

I don't think Ayce will make it however there seems to be no real competition if we are going to go with anything resembling modern 2nd ruck role.

Anyone who pays attention to my posting will know how obsessed I have been by the difference between the 1st and 2nd ruck roles, now it has spread to pretty much the whole league.

I can understand how development sides could ignore the 2nd ruck tactic as it's mainly about results and you could just develop 2 rucks however I don't think it works. I don't think it is good for Tom Campbell to spend the majority of his TOG in a position that he isn't suited to and it spreads to the rest of the team due to the pressure it puts on the team's structure.

The thing is, Ayce does so very little up forward. Not sure too many AFL sides in my lifetime have had worse short term KP forward options.

For mine it's a key-example of how recruiting a mature age player can help kids develop. Easier said than done of course.
There has been no lack of established 2nd ruck/pinch hitter options that we could have gotten on the cheap in recent seasons. O'Hailpin, Stefan Martin, Quentin Lynch just to name a few, all of whom would offer more both as 2nd rucks and as forward pinch hitters compared to Ayce - jesus even Ed Barlow would be more effective in the role (cue howls of derision :)). Drafting Ayce as a scrawny 17yo, and being forcd to use our 1st pick on him, was actually one of the sillier recruiting decisions and arguably cost us a premiership by not being able to get Barry Hall to the club 12 months earlier - keeping him on ice, letting him develop at Willy reserves, and drafting him as a much cheaper F/S selection 12 months later would have been a much smarter option. I have grave reservations about Ayce making it at this level - I hope the penny drops and he excels from here on in but I just can't see how a player so lacking in the hunger for the contest will automatically find this hunger to compete overnight.

[bornadog]

Drafting Ayce as a scrawny 17yo, and being forced to use our 1st pick on him, was actually one of the sillier recruiting decisions

I normally agree with most of your posts, but this I cannot agree with. Ayce would have been regarded as a top three pick in his year if he wasn't a FS selection. He had great credentials as a junior, and teams cry out for a tall, agile KPP and would have snapped him up.

[always right]

There has been no lack of established 2nd ruck/pinch hitter options that we could have gotten on the cheap in recent seasons. O'Hailpin, Stefan Martin, Quentin Lynch just to name a few, all of whom would offer more both as 2nd rucks and as forward pinch hitters compared to Ayce - jesus even Ed Barlow would be more effective in the role (cue howls of derision :)). Drafting Ayce as a scrawny 17yo, and being forcd to use our 1st pick on him, was actually one of the sillier recruiting decisions and arguably cost us a premiership by not being able to get Barry Hall to the club 12 months earlier - keeping him on ice, letting him develop at Willy reserves, and drafting him as a much cheaper F/S selection 12 months later would have been a much smarter option. I have grave reservations about Ayce making it at this level - I hope the penny drops and he excels from here on in but I just can't see how a player so lacking in the hunger for the contest will automatically find this hunger to compete overnight.

Problem is you are comparing a player who appeared to have an upside without any obvious ceiling, to players who have already shown what they have to offer. They certainly would have been the safer bet but for only a short term predictable result.

[F'scary]

Agree to disagree with Ayce. He's put on 20kg in his first few years, and he'll have a few more to add to push him to the 105 mark. His strength in his shoulders will be the most important thing over time, along with his core. It's not going to happen tomorrow, it might happen next year. We'll see how we go.

I think he now has the weight (about 100kg) to go with his height. He has a lot of good aspects. He is mobile and is good below the knees. I have been impressed with his work at ball ups and throw ins. So for me his future is as a ruckman and we should keep him therefore. However, we really need to get moving on the forward line - which was abysmal last year - and Ayce is not the answer at FF or FP.

I appreciate Rocco's comments about 2nd rucks. It is a conumdrum with the sub rule. For me the solution is indeed to make one of the taller forwards (e.g. Jones or Williams) do the rucking on the forward line. Maybe that strategy can take enough of the load off Big Will.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

TBB, I think we've already drafted one in Jones and we'll have a second one in Stringer (who for a lack of height still stands over 6ft 3inch, and is built like a bull).

Ayce isn't ever going to be a KPF in the true sense. He's not being played at this point to become one. He's simply being given games to ramp up his experience as a forward until he puts on enough weight to take some consistent time in the ruck.

6' 3" makes Stringer 1" taller than Jason Dunstall. Interesting comparison because Dunstall played as a leading FF but was quite mobile especially for his time. Of course stark contrast to Ayce Cordy. I haven't lost faith that Cordy will show something at FF. Faith is something that will serve us well with this young developing side and certainly something you would want in the coach, and thankfully McCartney has it. We must perservere like the Roman Army.