Christian Howard

[Eastdog]

What do you guys think of Howard's future? If he doesn't show anything in 2013 could he be in danger of being delisted.

[Ghost Dog]

Watch the NAB, 9 minutes in, just sprays it wide of goal, almost out of bounds on the full. If he keeps kicking like that, then for sure.

[craigsahibee]

I believe I have made my views on this subject quite clear ;)

Howard will need to show some improvement, the likes of which has not been seen before in the space of 6 months for me to change my views.

I will be the first to put my hand up at the end of the year and say I was wrong, and to be honest, foor the good of the club I hope I have to do that, but sadly I can't see it happening.

[lemmon]

I want to see him through the midfield (at both AFL and VFL level), we lack an outside player and what he does have is some reasonable skill and running ability. He isn't good enough defensively to be the half back flanker we'd hoped for so I really don't see the point in persisting with him back there.

[bornadog]

I want to see him through the midfield (at both AFL and VFL level), we lack an outside player and what he does have is some reasonable skill and running ability. He isn't good enough defensively to be the half back flanker we'd hoped for so I really don't see the point in persisting with him back there.

This ^^^^ Leaks too many goals and is not the Gilbee replacement we had hope for.

[Ghost Dog]

I want to see him through the midfield (at both AFL and VFL level), we lack an outside player and what he does have is some reasonable skill and running ability. He isn't good enough defensively to be the half back flanker we'd hoped for so I really don't see the point in persisting with him back there.

When you say not good enough defensively, what do you mean?
Seem to recall he is actually a pretty hard tackler. You mean, In terms of speed or ability to chase down opponents?

The kicking aspect is killing me.

[bornadog]

When you say not good enough defensively, what do you mean?
Seem to recall he is actually a pretty hard tackler. You mean, In terms of speed or ability to chase down opponents?

The kicking aspect is killing me.

His opponents kick too many goals.

[lemmon]

When you say not good enough defensively, what do you mean?
Seem to recall he is actually a pretty hard tackler. You mean, In terms of speed or ability to chase down opponents?

The kicking aspect is killing me.

What Bornadog said, poor one on one, too loose. What made Gilbee so successful was that he'd cut you up going forward but was an underrated defender, would stop his opponent as well

[Ghost Dog]

What Bornadog said, poor one on one, too loose. What made Gilbee so successful was that he'd cut you up going forward but was an underrated defender, would stop his opponent as well

And Gilbs would occasionally kick a bag!!

Would be a real shame for Howard to be out of the team, because he can't apply these teachable skills. Looks like a footballer, but that hardly counts does it?

[Mofra]

His big forte is his running ability, but to make the grade he has to use it.
Boyd & Cross are elite runners, they use it to get to as many contests as possible and attack that contest hard.

Eagleton-types used their ability to spread from the contest as much as possible and provide a linking option.

Howard hasn't shown that he can employ either tactic as yet.

[G-Mo77]

Last season I tried to take small things out of the game he did well. While he did impress in some games he didn't impress in most and more often than not I was left with very little to talk about. Every weakness I see has been noted in this thread so I don't have blinkers or a microscope on the guy. Yeah he's been crueled by injuries early on but that's football unfortunately. It's in his court this season, if he doesn't perform he's out. I honestly can't see an argument to keep him here if he doesn't.

He's not alone either....

[BulldogBelle]

I just wish he was a bit faster. He has a bit of leadership qualities about him, but it's hard to put him in a position - if he had two feet he could be a midfielder but is a tad slow for that role too, too slow for a permanent winger but he does have great endurance, and he's not ideal for a half back flank even though it looks naturally like his best spot.

Rotating between the wing and half forward I guess?

[w3design]

I just don't know what to do with, or make of Howard. He does not appear to have any natural defensive instincts at all. He watches the ball while generally ignoring his opponent most of the time. So for mine as a HBF he is a complete dud.

He does not have sufficient pace to play off the wing.

There would have to be 8-10 guys ahead of him for roles in the midfield.

What options does that leave? Too small for KP, so forward flank or pocket?
Once Gia retires, there may be a vacancy up front, but can we afford to carry him for another year or two on the off chance he may be able to fill that role eventually?

As I see things, if he does not find a niche for himself this season, then trade/de-listing look like the only options.

A bit like Grant, we can not go on carrying these guys on potential indefinitely. We need to fill our list with guys that DO, rather than show potential. In the tough world of reality, surely you can only live off your potential, and draft position for so long, before you need to deliver at the coal face. As yet I can't see that he has done that.

[jeemak]

paulv, you make some pretty reasonable points. I won't go into too much detail in how I think Howard will go as I've been over it enough. Suffice to say I think if he shows improvement this year he should be retained, if not, then a decision needs to be made. He won't be traded though, as he'll have little value. Potentially, he might end up on a Rookie List at another club.

On the latter part of your post, I think there is scope to hold on to some players that aren't going to be world beaters or consistent contributors while you're a bad team. If the aim is to improve, some players can be retained in lieu of them having the capacity to fulfill a "cherry on top" type of role once improvement is realised and a solid team structure is available for them to flourish within. I think Grant fits this category. Once the structure improves and we start playing better football, he'll improve.

[DragzLS1]

paulv, you make some pretty reasonable points. I won't go into too much detail in how I think Howard will go as I've been over it enough. Suffice to say I think if he shows improvement this year he should be retained, if not, then a decision needs to be made. He won't be traded though, as he'll have little value. Potentially, he might end up on a Rookie List at another club.

On the latter part of your post, I think there is scope to hold on to some players that aren't going to be world beaters or consistent contributors while you're a bad team. If the aim is to improve, some players can be retained in lieu of them having the capacity to fulfill a "cherry on top" type of role once improvement is realised and a solid team structure is available for them to flourish within. I think Grant fits this category. Once the structure improves and we start playing better football, he'll improve.

Spot on, look at hill at west coast.. Put grant there and he would pull 30-40 goals a year. Once the team improves soo does he, just depends on wether he is around enough for this improvement to take place so he can show us what hes got

[Mofra]

I just wish he was a bit faster. He has a bit of leadership qualities about him, but it's hard to put him in a position - if he had two feet he could be a midfielder but is a tad slow for that role too, too slow for a permanent winger but he does have great endurance, and he's not ideal for a half back flank even though it looks naturally like his best spot.

Rotating between the wing and half forward I guess?
That's the rub - talent isn't enough, you need to find a way to benefit the team. Andrejs Everitt is a super talent, but couldn't nail down a single position and that's where Howard's issue lies at the moment.

[ratsmac]

Maybe next year we could re-recruit Gilbee as Howard's replacement:D

Seriously though I am with everyone else on this forum and can't see a bright future for him. I have hardly seen him play a good game at Willy let alone in the AFL. All the talk is that he is super fit, so it's time he shows us what he's got to bring to the table. Has he been tried as a foward flanker much? I'm not too sure but he does seem a bit slow for mine. Again as it's been mentioned over and over , its a make or break year for Christian. I hope we are all wrong.

[Greystache]

Like most I can't see too much future for Howard. His lack of ability defensively or in a one-on-one contest prevent him from playing in defence or forward, so realistically his go has to be as an outside midfielder/wing. He's potentially similar to Eagleton, he will lose 9 out of 10 contests, but he has the endurance to be able to run to find space and get some easy ball which suits him better. The only issue was Eagleton was able to gut run and burn off opponents which Howard hasn't shown yet, and Eagleton was also a long and penetrating kick, an area which Howard looks at best to average.

Of concern is also that even if he could develop these Eagleton like qualities, I'm not sure there's much room in today's game for players like Eagelton.

[Remi Moses]

paulv, you make some pretty reasonable points. I won't go into too much detail in how I think Howard will go as I've been over it enough. Suffice to say I think if he shows improvement this year he should be retained, if not, then a decision needs to be made. He won't be traded though, as he'll have little value. Potentially, he might end up on a Rookie List at another club.

On the latter part of your post, I think there is scope to hold on to some players that aren't going to be world beaters or consistent contributors while you're a bad team. If the aim is to improve, some players can be retained in lieu of them having the capacity to fulfill a "cherry on top" type of role once improvement is realised and a solid team structure is available for them to flourish within. I think Grant fits this category. Once the structure improves and we start playing better football, he'll improve.

Excellent Points. I think we all concur, it's a big year for C Howard.

[w3design]

paulv, you make some pretty reasonable points. I won't go into too much detail in how I think Howard will go as I've been over it enough. Suffice to say I think if he shows improvement this year he should be retained, if not, then a decision needs to be made. He won't be traded though, as he'll have little value. Potentially, he might end up on a Rookie List at another club.

On the latter part of your post, I think there is scope to hold on to some players that aren't going to be world beaters or consistent contributors while you're a bad team. If the aim is to improve, some players can be retained in lieu of them having the capacity to fulfill a "cherry on top" type of role once improvement is realised and a solid team structure is available for them to flourish within. I think Grant fits this category. Once the structure improves and we start playing better football, he'll improve.

Don't get me wrong Jeemac, I really hope both Christian H and J Grant make it. That said however I think you can only retain players for so long on potential alone. Can we afford to have them filling spaces on limited playing lists indefinitely in hopes that one day they will live up to their potential?

Once drafted you need to give players the opportunities to show they can/will make it. But patience has to be tempered by a pinch of reality.

Again I have no argument that you need workhorses on your list, who are always only ever going to be backups. But gee shouldn't they be coming off the rooky list or late picks, not first round selections. I think we have every right to expect more of a top twenty draft selection than of some kid taken in the 60-80's or later.

I am not giving up on or writing off either CH or JG, but boy if they don't show considerably more this year than they have to date, then they have to come under very serious scrutiny at seasons end.

[Maddog37]

They will get overtaken by younger players and players like Lower at training in running and competitive drills if they do not apply themselves. It will be obvious there and then that they are dust. If they continue to look good on the track, apply themselves fully to meeting their personal KPIs and play some good games then they will be ok.

Many a player that seemed to have no position made their own. Then you will hear other clubs say "we need a player like x".

Can't think of too many examples and in no way am I comparing Howard and Grant to him but what position did James Hird play? Or Daryl White and I'm sure there are others. Geez, both of them may become capable utilities that get found out in any one position if left there too long but become valuable glue when filling cracks according to who we are playing.

Either way I am confident that our coach will be the first one in line to boot their arse if they are not fair dinkum.

[Mofra]

Many a player that seemed to have no position made their own. Then you will hear other clubs say "we need a player like x".

Can't think of too many examples and in no way am I comparing Howard and Grant to him but what position did James Hird play? Or Daryl White and I'm sure there are others.
You're forgetting they were actually good at multiple positions - there's a huge difference between versatile and not having a position.

[DOG GOD]

I would like to see him trialled on a HFF, where he can use his kicking prowess to good advantage. One of our issues going fwd is that we are bombing it into our 50 cause none of our fwd runners are good kicks..they can't lead up a kick to a moving fwd. I think Howard has the ability to do this...that's where I would play him, and tell him to roam around and run his opponent into the ground.

[Maddog37]

You're forgetting they were actually good at multiple positions - there's a huge difference between versatile and not having a position.

No doubt about that. I am just looking for something to hang my hat on........

[Maddog37]

I would like to see him trialled on a HFF, where he can use his kicking prowess to good advantage. One of our issues going fwd is that we are bombing it into our 50 cause none of our fwd runners are good kicks..they can't lead up a kick to a moving fwd. I think Howard has the ability to do this...that's where I would play him, and tell him to roam around and run his opponent into the ground.



A bit like Ryan Okeefe from the Swans?

[Dancin' Douggy]

I would like to see him trialled on a HFF, where he can use his kicking prowess to good advantage. One of our issues going fwd is that we are bombing it into our 50 cause none of our fwd runners are good kicks..they can't lead up a kick to a moving fwd. I think Howard has the ability to do this...that's where I would play him, and tell him to roam around and run his opponent into the ground.

And I would like to see J. Grant off a Half Back Flank.

I think he could play on talls and smalls.
He's got the go go gadget arms. He's a good contested mark.
He's fast, nimble and agile and would be pretty hard to get away from (if he was concentrating)
His field kicking is a lot better than his goal kicking and he could free Murph to go forward.

He doesn't seem to have an instinct for running to the right spots as a forward but as a defender he'd be led to the ball.

[BulldogBelle]

Grant is probably the best finisher in our team!

[LostDoggy]

And I would like to see J. Grant off a Half Back Flank.

I think he could play on talls and smalls.
He's got the go go gadget arms. He's a good contested mark.
He's fast, nimble and agile and would be pretty hard to get away from (if he was concentrating)
His field kicking is a lot better than his goal kicking and he could free Murph to go forward.

He doesn't seem to have an instinct for running to the right spots as a forward but as a defender he'd be led to the ball.

Great idea. Has that X-factor and make-up to become a Darryl White type across the half back line pushing up to a wing.

[Dancin' Douggy]

Grant is probably the best finisher in our team!

Ha ha ha he he he. That's one of the best jokes I've heard this year.

You were joking right?

[BulldogBelle]

Ha ha ha he he he. That's one of the best jokes I've heard this year.

You were joking right?

His set shots are often iffy with that strange ball-upwards technique, and he doesn't kick far, but his finishing ability on both feet is sublime - and he can do it at speed and with poise. His problems involve intensity, finding the footy a bit more and the fact that overall, our team can barely get it to his advantage.

Though i'm not saying that checking him out as a running half back doesn't have merit, because it certainly does.

[Go_Dogs]

No doubt about that. I am just looking for something to hang my hat on........

I like the idea, plenty of examples, I'd include Goodes, Goddard just off the top of my head of players who don't really seem to have had a defined position in the modern game (last few years).

As Mofra pointed out and you acknowledged, our guys aren't quite as talented as most of the examples although Grant still has a few x-factor traits, but I'm not sure it's what we should be hoping for from these guys.

I tend to think Howard's best shot has to be as a midfielder, mainly a hard working outside receiver, but need him to be able to receive in close and win his own ball too so he can play throug all rotations. Lack of pace off the first couple of steps will work against him as a more inside receiver but he needs to get his awareness and disposal to a level where he can play that role effectively.

Basically, he needs to become a solid all rounder mid who can tackle and work defensively - if he can do that and kick the ball well he might play 150+ games.

[Maddog37]

I would be very happy with that outcome.

[Ghost Dog]

Grant is probably the best finisher in our team!

Mmmmm big call there St 07. I'd bet my house on Tory Dickson or Guido over Grant.
If I had a house...that's is.

Howard's kicking leg goes to custard under pressure. His kicking is why we got him!

[jeemak]

Mmmmm big call there St 07. I'd bet my house on Tory Dickson or Guido over Grant.
If I had a house...that's is.

Howard's kicking leg goes to custard under pressure. His kicking is why we got him!

Yeah we know you think his kicking leg isn't as good as it should be.

Have you ever tried kicking decently to nothing in a disorganised side? It isn't easy. Just take a look at Ryan Griffen and Bob Murphy as examples of players that seem to have considerable difficulty with disposing the ball by foot within our current team structure.

I sound like a broken record, but this list will improve together through maturity, and the positive traits of the players on the list will become more prominent as it improves. I saw Howard against the Lions use his leg well last year, just like I saw him use it ordinarily in other games. Get some players knowing where to run (including Howard when he's positioning himself to recieve the ball) and you'll see the disposal by foot improve markedly across the entire list.

I agree that Gia is the finisher I'd have my money on, right now. Grant has shown very good finishing ability when not taking a set shot on both sides. Dickson has shown some good traits, though I think this year is a big one for him from a consolidation of value perspective.

[Mofra]

I agree that Gia is the finisher I'd have my money on, right now. Grant has shown very good finishing ability when not taking a set shot on both sides. Dickson has shown some good traits, though I think this year is a big one for him from a consolidation of value perspective.
Grant does kick a disproportionate number of goals running into goal though because he tends to burn off opponents with his pace.

I'd add Higgins to the Dickson & Gia finishing list - and surprisingly Minson over the last two years has been a very accurate set shot. Gia is still our best ball user in traffic though.

[DOG GOD]

A bit like Ryan Okeefe from the Swans?

Yeah that's a good comparison maddog. Howard isn't the quickest guy, but if he can find space and use his "weapon" to our advantage, the closer to the 50 the better. His endurance is obviously good so lets utilise his 2 strongest points to his and our advantage.

Give it a go macca!!!!

[Ozza]

Howard is probably the player I'm the most pessimistic about on the entire list. I can't see how he could have the qualities required to be considered a long term, senior AFL footballer.

As suggested earlier on this thread - where does he play?

Neither the tools, nor the apparent attitude ON the field.

[bornadog]

Howard is probably the player I'm the most pessimistic about on the entire list. I can't see how he could have the qualities required to be considered a long term, senior AFL footballer.

As suggested earlier on this thread - where does he play?

Neither the tools, nor the apparent attitude ON the field.

Do you prefer Vez over Howard?

BTW congratulations on the new addition.

[Ozza]

Do you prefer Vez over Howard?

BTW congratulations on the new addition.

Thanks bornadog. Much appreciated.

Right now - I would prefer Vez to be picked before Howard if we were going for 4 premiership points as he could be locked in as HBF and compete. Vez has shown in glimpses (notably the North Melbourne game last year) that he can play - but has overall been disappointing since arriving at the kennel.

My money wouldn't be on either to be considered in the best 22 at the end of this year. And thats a bit disappointing given that Howard was a first round draft pick, and Vez looked a player, very early in his career, and to me seems to have an ok footy brain and can kick the ball. He just doesn't stay in the game enough.

[Greystache]

Yeah that's a good comparison maddog. Howard isn't the quickest guy, but if he can find space and use his "weapon" to our advantage, the closer to the 50 the better. His endurance is obviously good so lets utilise his 2 strongest points to his and our advantage.

Give it a go macca!!!!

The key difference between O'Keefe and Howard is O'Keefe's ability to win one on one contests with his opponent. I can't see the value of a forward who can't beat his opponent one out, given he'll rarely be on his own, and to date Howard had shown no ability to do so.

[lemmon]

The key difference between O'Keefe and Howard is O'Keefe's ability to win one on one contests with his opponent. I can see the value of a forward who can't beat his opponent one out, given he'll rarely be on his own, and to date Howard had shown no ability to do so.

Agree, O'Keefe has underrated hands, very good overhead mark for a guy his size. Haven't seen any of that from Howard to date

[Ghost Dog]

Yeah that's a good comparison maddog. Howard isn't the quickest guy, but if he can find space and use his "weapon" to our advantage, the closer to the 50 the better. His endurance is obviously good so lets utilise his 2 strongest points to his and our advantage.

Give it a go macca!!!!

What weapon is that?

[Dancin' Douggy]

His set shots are often iffy with that strange ball-upwards technique, and he doesn't kick far, but his finishing ability on both feet is sublime - and he can do it at speed and with poise. His problems involve intensity, finding the footy a bit more and the fact that overall, our team can barely get it to his advantage.

Though i'm not saying that checking him out as a running half back doesn't have merit, because it certainly does.

To be fair, it's his set shots that are his problem re finishing goes. And I agree with the rest of your criticisms.

[chef]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2013-list-management-and-trade-discussion.1032628/page-96

[chef]

Blake Gramsbergen @blakeg1993

@C_Howard30 Pardon my asking but are you signed on for next season mate?




Christian Howard@C_Howard30

@blakeg1993 yes mate stoked to get another year

[chef]

I don't get it, Macca must see something I don't.

[LostDoggy]

Blake Gramsbergen @blakeg1993

@C_Howard30 Pardon my asking but are you signed on for next season mate?




Christian Howard@C_Howard30

@blakeg1993 yes mate stoked to get another year

If there's no reasonable trade there then I'm fine with one more, especially with the VFL team coming in.

[bulldogtragic]

Geez Louise.

[soupman]

Mustn't rate this draft then.

[Greystache]

Wow! In years gone by you had to show you could play to stay in the AFL system, these days you have to prove you can't.

[always right]

Wow! In years gone by you had to show you could play to stay in the AFL system, these days you have to prove you can't.

Or he simply rates Howard higher than those available in the draft with our later picks.

[ledge]

Or he gave him another year so we could trade him in the Patton deal :-)

[jeemak]

Wow! In years gone by you had to show you could play to stay in the AFL system, these days you have to prove you can't.


Or he simply rates Howard higher than those available in the draft with our later picks.


Or he gave him another year so we could trade him in the Patton deal :-)

Or he understands that some footballers take more time to develop than others, and sees scope for Howard to do so.

Half way through the year some here reported BMac said just that at a members function. With that in mind, I'm not surprised he's been given another year.

It's not as if every game he's played for us has been bad, and devoid of any signs he can make it as an AFL player. For mine the jury's still out whether he will make it, though I'm comfortable with him getting a chance to prove he can.

[bulldogtragic]

Well in that case, DFA is going.

The list is not a premiership list just yet, I hope we are not overrating where the list is at. I think we need 5 spots assuming Austin and Goodes stay rookies for next year. With only 4 gone so far, I think we need one or more further list movings out.

[Remi Moses]

Or he understands that some footballers take more time to develop than others, and sees scope for Howard to do so.

Half way through the year some here reported BMac said just that at a members function. With that in mind, I'm not surprised he's been given another year.

It's not as if every game he's played for us has been bad, and devoid of any signs he can make it as an AFL player. For mine the jury's still out whether he will make it, though I'm comfortable with him getting a chance to prove he can.

Yep, agree with this. He has next season to make it.

[Happy Days]

I get the sense that Howard is well liked around the club.

Countering that, I also get the sense that he can't play at all.

I think he's been saved by the total lack of (apparently) small defenders who can (apparently) kick. Behind JJ there isnt a lot of depth.

[jeemak]

Well in that case, DFA is going.

The list is not a premiership list just yet, I hope we are not overrating where the list is at. I think we need 5 spots assuming Austin and Goodes stay rookies for next year. With only 4 gone so far, I think we need one or more further list movings out.

Interesting comparison between Howard and Addison when at the same age:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=8&pid1=3328&tid2=8&pid2=1633&type=A&fid1=O&fid2=O


Here's a comparison for them over their careers:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=8&pid1=3328&tid2=8&pid2=1633&type=A&fid1=C&fid2=C


Firstly, I understand you weren't comparing them as players.

Though, it's pretty interesting that they have comparable career numbers and we're worrying about whether we'll get rid of one on the back of keeping the other, when one is four years older than the other.

DFA's early career stats are distorted by games where he played midfield roles running with a player and at other times when he's been able to play in the midfield more feely (though, his stints up forward haven't helped his stat count), while Howard's are distorted by a few high possession games where he was allowed to accumulate the ball in some instances rather than play a defencive game.

If anything I use such stats to measure output of a single player, rather than worth of a player versus another. With Howard at 22.5 years old and having had a few big games under his belt I reckon we'd be likely to give him a year more over DFA though.

[bulldogtragic]

Interesting comparison between Howard and Addison when at the same age:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=8&pid1=3328&tid2=8&pid2=1633&type=A&fid1=O&fid2=O


Here's a comparison for them over their careers:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?tid1=8&pid1=3328&tid2=8&pid2=1633&type=A&fid1=C&fid2=C


Firstly, I understand you weren't comparing them as players.

Though, it's pretty interesting that they have comparable career numbers and we're worrying about whether we'll get rid of one on the back of keeping the other, when one is four years older than the other.

DFA's early career stats are distorted by games where he played midfield roles running with a player and at other times when he's been able to play in the midfield more feely (though, his stints up forward haven't helped his stat count), while Howard's are distorted by a few high possession games where he was allowed to accumulate the ball in some instances rather than play a defencive game.

If anything I use such stats to measure output of a single player, rather than worth of a player versus another. With Howard at 22.5 years old and having had a few big games under his belt I reckon we'd be likely to give him a year more over DFA though.
Interesting. My only real point is we need to turn over the list a little more. I thought both could go, but that one needs to to give us 4 or 5 selections this draft. With Howie staying, DFA seems the obvious choice if I'm right about needing one more vacancy. If it was a choice between the two, I would agree with the decision.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

That says to me we really don't rate the draft's depth.

I'd love Howard to make it, but he really hasn't been able to show much at either AFL or VFL level. His decision making and disposal is average at best, which was touted pre-draft as his main strengths. Although his time trials indicate he has a good endurance base, it hasn't really helped him to date. Moreover, we still don't know his best position.

I do recall McCartney saying earlier this year that Howard was basically a slow developer/learner, and that whilst they are working on it with him, he was comparable to a first year player. It was a very interesting comment.

[jeemak]

I guess it comes down to who we think has a greater capacity to improve.

The thirst for list turnover, and getting rid of wood that might potentially be dead before you actually realise it is dead and replenishing it is fair enough to a point. But, each list on the way up has players that find a bit more when things click compared to what they were able to produce when they aren't clicking. For me, I think the true experts at list management realise who these players are, and get rid of them once the click is done and dusted with (think Jake King and his contribution to the Tigers this year, and think Matt Clape or Brad Pearce at their time at Carlton in the mid 90's).

We may only get three or four years of recognisable contribution out of Howard from now. But if those years involve him contributing to a top four finish and a chance at a premiership then so be it. It's up to our list managers to plan for his demise.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

There is a number on our list like Howard that includes Williams Higgins Cordy Wood Tutt and Pearce that should all be facing a make or break year.To move out of the bottom 4, the list needs close scrutiny, to give us the depth in talent required to become a force to be reckoned with in 2014 and beyond.

[jeemak]

There is a number on our list like Howard that includes Williams Higgins Cordy Wood Tutt and Pearce that should all be facing a make or break year.To move out of the bottom 4, the list needs close scrutiny, to give us the depth in talent required to become a force to be reckoned with in 2014 and beyond.

Howard - Agreed, this is his year to demonstrate he's going to develop into a consistent player, with the next a player who comes into the 22 immediately after missing a game

Higgins - It's no secret I rate him higher than most on this board. For mine, he's a gun in a gun team and the most likely of any of our forwards to be marked by the best medium defender from the opposition. I'm prepared for him to put in medium to good level performance after a horrible injury (like many he's suffered to this point in his career - he's the unluckiest man to be still playing football, which kind of makes him the luckiest)

Cordy - There's good reason why he was given three years to go at it at the end of last. The plan as far as I can see it, is to have him ready to go or ready to trade. I personally think it will be the former, as I've never seen a player ever, come back from so far in the development stakes

Wood - At best he will be a great rebounding defender, who can generate drive irrespective of his defficiencies. At worst, he'll be gone at the end of 2014. I don't rate his chances that highly as I fear his hamstrings will work against him (some players are unlucky)

Tutt - I actually think he'll be a very good player for us. If there was one player I thought needed to mature into a player that thinks he belongs at the top level it's him. He's still a few years away from the time at which he should be performing strongly each week with no excuses, and for me he has time to fix his defensive and decision making issues

Pearce - Haven't seen enough of him. I struggle to find logic in getting rid of players that work hard and train with the right attitude after a couple of years

Williams - He'll be retained, but the guy not getting on the park but still maintaining a list spot pretty much cancels the talls versus smalls debate out to a point of irrelevance

[Go_Dogs]

Thanks for the update on Howard.

Definitely THE make or break year for him. His fitness seems to be good enough, but getting his game to transition has been the difficulty and his much lauded skills haven't been evident at either AFL or VFL level yet based on the games I've seen.

Given the amount of time we've invested in him I can understand why we'd want to give him a final year to make sure, but it is in contrast with some of the more ruthless list management decisions we see these days.

[Bulldog4life]

I am happy to give Howie another year. Most likely make or break year coming up. I really hope for the lad's sake he can make it. Time will tell.

[GVGjr]

I am happy to give Howie another year. Most likely make or break year coming up. I really hope for the lad's sake he can make it. Time will tell.

Same here. People often get frustrated with him because he was an early pick but that isn't fair on him. Another 12 months sounds about right. The ball is in his court.

[Twodogs]

Cordy - There's good reason why he was given three years to go at it at the end of last. The plan as far as I can see it, is to have him ready to go or ready to trade. I personally think it will be the former, as I've never seen a player ever, come back from so far in the development stakes


I have seen a couple of big men come from as far back as Ayce.

Peter Foster. Was the steak knives in a deal that we made for another player from Fitzroy. He was hopeless in the first couple of years he was with us. Gangly, injury prone, fell over a lot and didn't look like he knew what he was doing. Then he just clicked.

Ian Hampshire. Clumsy, no skills and behind Gary Dempsey in the pecking order. Then when Dempsey took off for North Bluey came into his own. Ended up as a great ruck man for us.

I still think Ayce will make it.

[ratsmac]

:eek::eek: Howard got another year!! Well good luck Howie, hope you can bring it next season.

[F'scary]

He will have to absolutely turn the form on in the reserves because there is now stiff competition for medium size running player positions in the firsts.

[The bulldog tragician]

Or he understands that some footballers take more time to develop than others, and sees scope for Howard to do so.

Half way through the year some here reported BMac said just that at a members function. With that in mind, I'm not surprised he's been given another year.

It's not as if every game he's played for us has been bad, and devoid of any signs he can make it as an AFL player. For mine the jury's still out whether he will make it, though I'm comfortable with him getting a chance to prove he can.

I was one of those at a function maybe 2 weeks before seasons end. BMac said something along the lines that Howard will make it and be a solid 100 game player. NOT the star people may have hoped for given his high draft pick, but a reasonable player. He spoke with such conviction that I never from that point expected Howard to be traded.

BMac also had some fascinating stats, which I've unfortunately forgotten, about the percent of players from top spots in draft that even make 100 games. It was pretty sobering. Drafting is a very inexact science despite all the test results.

[ledge]

I was one of those at a function maybe 2 weeks before seasons end. BMac said something along the lines that Howard will make it and be a solid 100 game player. NOT the star people may have hoped for given his high draft pick, but a reasonable player. He spoke with such conviction that I never from that point expected Howard to be traded.

BMac also had some fascinating stats, which I've unfortunately forgotten, about the percent of players from top spots in draft that even make 100 games. It was pretty sobering. Drafting is a very inexact science despite all the test results.

Sounds like the same speech he gave a few if us a couple of years ago, did he use slides and compare players and go through where we were at etc ?

[F'scary]

Howard - Agreed, this is his year to demonstrate he's going to develop into a consistent player, with the next a player who comes into the 22 immediately after missing a game

Higgins - It's no secret I rate him higher than most on this board. For mine, he's a gun in a gun team and the most likely of any of our forwards to be marked by the best medium defender from the opposition. I'm prepared for him to put in medium to good level performance after a horrible injury (like many he's suffered to this point in his career - he's the unluckiest man to be still playing football, which kind of makes him the luckiest)

Cordy - There's good reason why he was given three years to go at it at the end of last. The plan as far as I can see it, is to have him ready to go or ready to trade. I personally think it will be the former, as I've never seen a player ever, come back from so far in the development stakes

Wood - At best he will be a great rebounding defender, who can generate drive irrespective of his defficiencies. At worst, he'll be gone at the end of 2014. I don't rate his chances that highly as I fear his hamstrings will work against him (some players are unlucky)

Tutt - I actually think he'll be a very good player for us. If there was one player I thought needed to mature into a player that thinks he belongs at the top level it's him. He's still a few years away from the time at which he should be performing strongly each week with no excuses, and for me he has time to fix his defensive and decision making issues

Pearce - Haven't seen enough of him. I struggle to find logic in getting rid of players that work hard and train with the right attitude after a couple of years

Williams - He'll be retained, but the guy not getting on the park but still maintaining a list spot pretty much cancels the talls versus smalls debate out to a point of irrelevance

My annotations on the above - which I appreciated and agree with.

Howard: 2014 = last chance saloon.

Higgins: I agree he is very unlucky with injuries but he's got a lot of competition now for a smaller forward spot (FP, HFF) and I don't think he can play any other position. 2014 = last chance saloon.

Cordy: Keep grooming as a ruckman for the next two years. He has huge upside potential. It wouldn't surprise me if one day in 2014 or 2015, Minson is not available, he steps in as #1 ruck and wows us all.

Wood: hamstrings mean 2014 = last chance saloon.

Tutt: upside development potential has been demonstrated in 2013. Plays as a true outside run and carry player with a good hoof to boot!

Pearce: absolutely - had a bad year with injuries, needs to be looked at more.

Williams: Automatic inclusion when fit but is so injury prone that... 2014 is last chance saloon.

[The bulldog tragician]

Sounds like the same speech he gave a few if us a couple of years ago, did he use slides and compare players and go through where we were at etc ?

No presentation - it was a small breakfast function. ANother thing that stood out (sorry this is straying from the Christian Howard topic) was him talking about Geelong's 1999 superfdraft. They got Corey and Enright but three other high draft picks never made it. One - Spriggs- too cocky, wouldn't listen. Another was virtually the opposite - so apprehensive about doing well that he would vomit before games, never made it. The third, an indigenous boy who just could not settle. He was using it to illustrate that talent is not the only barometer of whether a player makes it, and that was where his stat came in. Sorry I'm a bit hazy on details.

[jeemak]

Spriggs was a pretty high profile one from memory, and ended up at Sydney for a year or two of ordinary performances after doing his ankle on the gas in his final preseason at the Cats?

Talent only gets you so far, but it's a big help if you have it.

[Ghost Dog]

Same here. People often get frustrated with him because he was an early pick but that isn't fair on him. Another 12 months sounds about right. The ball is in his court.

Macca's turning around of Jarrod Grant's fortunes has at least given me a line of defence during pub arguments about the under-performing players in our list. Hope!

[The Doctor]

Howard is the luckiest player in the AFL.

Hope he makes the most of this opportunity.

[Mantis]

That says to me we really don't rate the draft's depth.



I'm hearing that it doesn't run very deep.

[MrMahatma]

Good luck to him. Hope he turns it around.