Game Day - 2013 NAB Cup Round 2 - Hawthorn

[bornadog]

Matthew Boyd Effective Disposal Percentage 58.1%,Time on Ground 90% I like our captain and as I said in a previous post he could be an absolute superstar but for one small problem.

If you look at the League averages 58.1% for the top midfielders is about what they achieve. Boyd had more effective disposals than Judd last year and was ranked 6th in the AFL.

I just think a couple of really bad clangers and people judge his whole game on that, yet guys like Griffen do not get scrutinized in this area at all.

[LostDoggy]

Boyd's disposal is starting to get ridiculous. It isn't even going to a 2 on 1 anymore (2opp to 1dog). They are going straight to opposition players on their own! Fair dinkum if he didn't throw his heart and soul into every other aspect of his game, I'd be looking into him for match fixing. It is that bad at times.


I am going to have to completely disagree with you. ONE ball was a shocker and under no pressure went straight to the opposition. A couple of kicks when he was tackled, may have ended up with Hawthorn players but out of 30 disposals I would say no more than three in total.

For gods sakes posters (not just you HM), instead of focusing on the one or two errors players make, have a look at the positive impacts.

I was trying to give him some sort of wrap for effort at the end of my post.
I love Boyd and I believe his tackle at the end won the game for the dogs last night, no question.
I turned a blind eye to his somewhat sloppy disposal in the past. However last night he litterally hit opposition players laces out 10m on their own by foot once and by hand once. Like it has been mentioned on here before, imagine the superstar he'd be if he lifted in this area.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

93% DE? That's a tremendous effort from Clay. He has obviously worked extremely hard on his kicking over pre-season, and noticeably is taking a lot of care which each ball he has. It's impossible not to love the way he plays; he's looking like an inspired selection, and somebody who will be the heart of our team for a decade.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Thank God, some logic at last.
Thanks for the write up PaulV. Good reading.

The condescending "thank god, some logic at last" is a little irritating.

Patience is fine -- most people understand tall players take a while to develop, but is five years not enough to show consistent glimpses? Five years is a damn long time, and certain players (Jesse Hogan, for example) have shown more in one game than Cordy has shown in five years.

Not sure why some posters continually make excuses for under performing players. As has been said by a number of people, nobody is expecting Lance Franklin-esque performances..

[bulldogsman]

Thanks for the report paulv.

In regards to Cordy, I thought in the two North games last year (NAB cup & the win against North in H&A season) he was played a bit more up the ground and to be honest it's the only two games in which I've been impressed with him. Especially in the North win I think he took two contested marks while running and jumping into a pack situation. I thought he actually looked like a forward in these games as he always felt like he had to be on the move. I do have some confidence in him making it, just not sure playing deep suits him. A lot of the time he seems intent on trying to out body his opponent or pointing his arm out rather then just instinctively moving towards the ball when playing deep. Hopefully he learns and I hope he can start hanging on to some of his marks. I can see why the coaches want to persist with him and I wouldn't be against him starting round 1 if he shows a bit more improvement.

[LostDoggy]

The condescending "thank god, some logic at last" is a little irritating.

Patience is fine -- most people understand tall players take a while to develop, but is five years not enough to show consistent glimpses? Five years is a damn long time, and certain players (Jesse Hogan, for example) have shown more in one game than Cordy has shown in five years.

Not sure why some posters continually make excuses for under performing players. As has been said by a number of people, nobody is expecting Lance Franklin-esque performances..

Agree in full.

Cordy can do all the developing he needs in the Williamstown side if he's not making acceptable contributions to the team. Campbell should be picked as the second ruck/forward if his form warrants. I don't believe his performances last year were anywhere near as disappointing as Cordys'.

This is not the boys club of the Austrlian cricket team. You perform or someone takes your place.

[Dazza]

Was really impressed with Liam Jones' game. I feel like his first real bag of goals is just around the corner. Looks like he'll have a good year. I'm tipping 30+ goals.

[GVGjr]

Was really impressed with Liam Jones' game. I feel like his first real bag of goals is just around the corner. Looks like he'll have a good year. I'm tipping 30+ goals.

I'd be OK with that. Jones playing the majority of the season with some level of productivity is important for the club.

[ReLoad]

For me the main thing that I got from the game apart from beating hawthorn (which my wife and kids barrack for, yeah I know...) Was that our tackles are sticking.

Whether it is improved technique, physical strength or an underdeveloped opposition, the tackling was fantastic last night and holds us in good stead going forward.

Whilst we are still only going to win 5 or 6 games for the year the signs are good, and the development path that has been set looks promising.

For the record the kids called Stringer - "String Bean", so in house that nickname has stuck. I was up and out of my chair when he bagged that one, if anyone didn't understand football, they may have thought that I had just seen Jesus come back for a visit.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Was really impressed with Liam Jones' game. I feel like his first real bag of goals is just around the corner. Looks like he'll have a good year. I'm tipping 30+ goals.


I'd be OK with that. Jones playing the majority of the season with some level of productivity is important for the club.

Agree with the above.

I think Murphy's presence is going to help Jones' game tenfold. If Williams plays forward and can stay on the park, he'll also really help Jones' game because these three lead hard, present to the ball and create space behind them for their teammates.

A forward half of Williams, Jones, Murphy, Gia, Dickson and Dahl looks OK.

[w3design]

Agree in full.

Cordy can do all the developing he needs in the Williamstown side if he's not making acceptable contributions to the team. Campbell should be picked as the second ruck/forward if his form warrants. I don't believe his performances last year were anywhere near as disappointing as Cordys'.

This is not the boys club of the Austrlian cricket team. You perform or someone takes your place.

Sorry, but how often have you watched Campbell at Williamstown ???
I am not saying he will never make the grade up forward... But....
on a week by week basis, as a forward, he is far less effective than Liam Jones was last season.
As I said in an earlier post, as a 1st ruck, he is a good option for a 22YO or something youngster. As a 2nd ruck/forward, at this point in time [ and may I stress that point !!!], he is a non option, even at VFL level. Yes he had a good game [ or was it 2] in last pre seasons comp., but since then has done absolutely nothing as a forward.

As to someone's comment on what Jessie Hogan displayed.... Lets see what he can do on a weekly basis before we start intimating he is a super star. One could easily say that Tutt and Smith have never recreated their first outings again either. Yet I bet Hogan would also find it difficult, if he was thrown in at the deep end right now in the cut and thrust of weekly AFL, under real life pressure. Like them he may become terrific in time, then again he may simply come back to the field once the microscope comes on.

If we already had a Footscray reserve side where we could give Cordy time playing the role we want him ultimately to fulfil, then perhaps a trip back to VFL level might be a viable option. However in the real current world, that simply would not happen. As I said earlier, he would be forced into trying to fill a 1st ruck role, which would likely do him nor the Dogs any particular good.

Cordy is not a FF... full stop. He needs to be playing as a 2nd ruck/ FP.
I don't much care if our FF is Stringer, Williams, or whoever. But for mine, we have Jones at CHF [ and ain't it amazing how many of last years Jones hatchet men are now on his band wagon], a full time FF, Murph as a regular part of the forward structure, and Cordy in the FP/2nd ruck. That for mine is the best answer, not simply dumping people on the system's mercy, and hoping either things will come good, or some of us can say... "I told you so!!!".

Patience is a virtue. With big kids, it is an essential.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Sorry, but how often have you watched Campbell at Williamstown ???
I am not saying he will never make the grade up forward... But....
on a week by week basis, as a forward, he is far less effective than Liam Jones was last season.
As I said in an earlier post, as a 1st ruck, he is a good option for a 22YO or something youngster. As a 2nd ruck/forward, at this point in time [ and may I stress that point !!!], he is a non option, even at VFL level. Yes he had a good game [ or was it 2] in last pre seasons comp., but since then has done absolutely nothing as a forward.

I agree with the above.

Campbell is a solid first choice ruck for a 22yo and I think he will be OK in time, but he doesn't offer enough to either dislodge Minson or play as a FF.


As to someone's comment on what Jessie Hogan displayed.... Lets see what he can do on a weekly basis before we start intimating he is a super star. One could easily say that Tutt and Smith have never recreated their first outings again either. Yet I bet Hogan would also find it difficult, if he was thrown in at the deep end right now in the cut and thrust of weekly AFL, under real life pressure. Like them he may become terrific in time, then again he may simply come back to the field once the microscope comes on.

Nobody suggested Hogan is a superstar, so that is incorrect for you to take out of context. No doubt Hogan will run into his own difficulties in the future, but at least he's shown he's capable at this level already. Smith showed that in game one and has been great since, so I'm not sure why you'd bring him up. In regards to Tutt, he has attributes that could see him carve out a career at the top level too. Whilst I am not confident Tutt can limit his weaknesses and exploit his strengths enough to make it, he has at least demonstrated a capability.

Unfortunately, Ayce hasn't demonstrated this in his five or so years at the club.



Cordy is not a FF... full stop. He needs to be playing as a 2nd ruck/ FP.
I don't much care if our FF is Stringer, Williams, or whoever. But for mine, we have Jones at CHF [ and ain't it amazing how many of last years Jones hatchet men are now on his band wagon], a full time FF, Murph as a regular part of the forward structure, and Cordy in the FP/2nd ruck. That for mine is the best answer, not simply dumping people on the system's mercy, and hoping either things will come good, or some of us can say... "I told you so!!!".

Patience is a virtue. With big kids, it is an essential.

Cordy is not a FF -- that I certainly agree with. Problem is, the ruck position requires a tremendous amount of strength and these days, mobility. These are both weaknesses at present for Ayce.

I think most people conceded Jones always had the talent to make it, but that he had an extremely poor 2012 and needed to have a good season this year. He's off to a really promising start. I don't recall anybody writing him off like you implied above?

How long should the club be patient with Ayce? It's been 5 years already and he looks no further developed than a first or second year player. Do you concede that he at least needs to show some solid improvement in what is an important season for him personally?

[jeemak]

Paulv, love your contribution to this thread, and others of late. Thanks for the detail.

TBB - I guess the reason why some of us are a little more patient with Ayce, is because he seemed disgracefully malnourished as he arrived to the club, and practically had two seasons completely wrecked by injury when he started his senior career.

Nobody can argue against the numbers, he's into his fifth year of senior football and hasn't shown what we might have hoped. But when you dig a little deeper into his previous four seasons you find he's put on a lot of weight, is trying to develop shoulders that don't pop out at the first hint of a bump (after a few operations) and is obviously getting his head around playing against men.

I guess you might believe he'd be best off at reserves level to develop, but I struggle to find a viable alternative to him playing in the seniors at this point.

Sure, picking the team on merrit is one thing, but playing players who are talented and need to develop as senior footballers is something that needs to be considered. If we had players just as talented (as the coaches see it) putting their hands regularly up to replace him, and were in a situation where winning games was our primary focus, first and foremost rather than development, then I'd agree that Ayce should struggle to get a game. But we're not.

[Happy Days]

Thankyou to paulv, TBB and everyone else to contributing to this tread, especially to paulv to what otherwise would have gone unremarked.

Here is what I believe to be the truth of our playing list based so far from the general consensus;

- Cordy sucks, Howard sucks
- Smith can't kick but hits the target which means he can kick
- We are still all aware of Wallis' deficiencies so we can't get excited about him even though it is obvious he is good
- Boyd is our best player but turns it over so death to Boyd
- OMG DICKSON

[jeemak]

Thankyou to paulv, TBB and everyone else to contributing to this tread, especially to paulv to what otherwise would have gone unremarked.

Here is what I believe to be the truth of our playing list based so far from the general consensus;

- Cordy sucks, Howard sucks
- Smith can't kick but hits the target which means he can kick
- We are still all aware of Wallis' deficiencies so we can't get excited about him even though it is obvious he is good
- Boyd is our best player but turns it over so death to Boyd
- OMG DICKSON

Hahahaha, indeed.

We're a happy ol' lot on WOOF aren't we.

[bornadog]

:p
Thankyou to paulv, TBB and everyone else to contributing to this tread, especially to paulv to what otherwise would have gone unremarked.

Here is what I believe to be the truth of our playing list based so far from the general consensus;

- Cordy sucks, Howard sucks
- Smith can't kick but hits the target which means he :pcan kick
- We are still all aware of Wallis' deficiencies so we can't get excited about him even though it is obvious he is good
- Boyd is our best player but turns it over so death to Boyd
- OMG DICKSON

Its pretty pathetic the way some posters think, but you have worked it out:p

[soupman]

If we already had a Footscray reserve side where we could give Cordy time playing the role we want him ultimately to fulfil, then perhaps a trip back to VFL level might be a viable option. However in the real current world, that simply would not happen. As I said earlier, he would be forced into trying to fill a 1st ruck role, which would likely do him nor the Dogs any particular good.


Would he though?

Didn't Williamstown recruit Cameron Wood in the off season, surely with the goal of having him as first ruck, as he certainly isn't anything else. So Cordy, and Campbell, when they play in the VFL would likely play a similiar role to that which they would in the seniors.

[Bulldog Revolution]

How long should the club be patient with Ayce? It's been 5 years already and he looks no further developed than a first or second year player. Do you concede that he at least needs to show some solid improvement in what is an important season for him personally?

This to me this is the real issue and why we expect more, because he's going into his 5th year.

But as TBB alludes to, given his height, slight build, shoulder issues he's struggled to physically to add size and in reality, he is far more like a player going into his 3rd season

Physically he still does not look ready for a large role at AFL level to me

The club and coaches have signed him up and clearly believe in him, and see more of him day to day to assess his effort, application and desire.

I'm unsure but believed when we picked him up we had to take a long term view (6-8 year) for him to begin paying off.

He is also attempting to play perhaps the hardest role in footy, since the death of true centre half forward - there are few ruck man/forwards who do both well.

2013 is an important year, but my expectations are modest as I still think he is physically developing. We know that big players take time, but sometimes its frustrating waiting.

[DragzLS1]

Ayce will be given this year as a development year aswell but think the pressure will be on in 2014 if he doesn't show improvement. I believe in Cordy like I believed in jones and don't see why we can't atleast be patient for another year. The coaching stall clearly see potential in him and have given him 3 years to prove it, just as we enter the next gf tilt with our gun youngsters ;)

[w3design]

I don't think I have ever suggested that we should have unlimited or endless patience with Cordy, or any other player. And I do think he really needs to demonstrate that he is coming to terms with playing at this level in 2013.
However I do not feel he can show that at Williamstown.
Why I believe he would have to play a 1st ruck role at the lower level, is that if you drop him down, Campbell is forced to come up, as the only alternative we have. Big Will cannot be expected to play as a one man band. That ploy has been tried, and was an unmitigated failure [ with Hudson].... that is the one ruck system, not the player was a failure.
As to Cameron Wood being the first ruck. Hope for Williamstown's sake it works out, but gee I would not like to bet my house on it. His history with injury, and very inconsistent form, is hardly going to fill one with confidence that you could rely on him to hold down that role for even much, let alone all of the season.

Now for TBB. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. In no way was I denigrating Smith or Tutt.
The point I was making was that one great first game does not define how a kids career will go. My recollection was that both lads kicked 4 goals on début, only to be hailed by some [ in both media and forums] as instant champions. From game 2 onward both struggled, Smith perhaps to a lesser extent than Tutty to date, but neither has yet to reproduce that initial spectacular form.

I have huge faith in both kids, and look forward to watching both have exciting careers. They are both showing steady improvement.

As I said before, we need to have patience with kids while they develop. The bigger the kid it seems, so greater the amount of patience required.

I believe the club is on the right track, and am happy that our recruiting seems better lately than I have seen from this club in a long time.

[Remi Moses]

In fairness most right minded followers realise that one swallow doesn't make a summer.
However both Tutt and Smith have showed that dirty word " Potential".
The criticism of Tutt is particularly harsh as he hasn't been able to string games together due to injury.Howard, he has his detractors has shown glimpses of good form mixed with bad form.
Ayce, I guess you'd like to just see a glimpse( big grab or something)to hang your hat on.
I realise Ayce is coming from a long way back, but a nice goal
Or a grab would be nice.Liam Jones shows in glimpses that he is going to be a good footballer( the deft tap to Dahlhaus an example)

[FrediKanoute]

How long should the club be patient with Ayce? It's been 5 years already and he looks no further developed than a first or second year player. Do you concede that he at least needs to show some solid improvement in what is an important season for him personally?

Given that we have been patient with Big Will for nearly 10 years, 5 for Ayce is a doddle. You have to give big blokes time. Guys like Buddy and Brown are freaks and I suspect Hogan (given how he has been touted) is the same. I think the best thing we can do with Ayce is to keep playing him. Provided he is a better player at the end of the season than at the start we have won. Remeber, he may have been on the list 5 years, but 2.5 of those were a write off.

[FrediKanoute]

Having watched the game yesterday, my two cents on the performance is that I really liked he way we hung in the contest, especially when the Hawks got a 2 to 3 goal lead. We fougt back and pegged it back. First time in a while we haven't just given up and gotten smashed.

Loved the young brigade and then we are much better balanced in the midfieald this year than we were last year. Stevens for mine is a great get and if it means that Wally Jnr has to work hard to keep his spot that can only be a good thing.

I really liked Libba's game. Just kept extracting the footy. Hope he can really take the next step this year.

Loved Jones' marking and his positioning. Much better than last year and he looks a threat. The problem is that unless he backs that threat up by scoring goals or creating assists. His kicking is a let down, especially given the chances his leading and marking created.

[Go_Dogs]

Managed to catch a bit of AFL 360 tonight and at the start, the hero for Monday was Boydy for his game saving tackle for Robbo, and Stringer for his effort to goal from Gerard. Quite a glowing view on the quality of our game vs Hawks and of our competitiveness.

[Hotdog60]

Managed to catch a bit of AFL 360 tonight and at the start, the hero for Monday was Boydy for his game saving tackle for Robbo, and Stringer for his effort to goal from Gerard. Quite a glowing view on the quality of our game vs Hawks and of our competitiveness.

On Boyd and his tackle, why wasn't paid a free for incorrect disposal? It was a text book tackle and the player didn't dispose of ball by hand or by foot.

[soupman]

Just finished watching the game and am quite happy with the result.

I don't think Cordy was as bad as he is made out to be. He actually got involved a couple of times. This game he actually pushed further up the field than usual, which I believe is what he did in his better games last year (ie. vs North). I'm not sure he is ready and/or capable of just playing as a stay at home forward, but he does seem capable of pushing up onto the wings as an option. He is significantly better coming at the ball, rather than being a stationary target, which again makes me question the coaching he is receiving.

One of his most frustrating traits last year was his unwillingness to move out of the goalsquare for any reason, even to lead. Either the coaches are telling him to do that, or are neglecting to tell him not to do that, which are both wrong. I hold out hope for him yet.

I think we have some very exciting defenders coming through, and between Goodes, JJ and Pearce I think Murphy's loss from there is going to be well covered. I thought Roughead was adequate against Franklin, and Buddy was probably at his most dangerous at the start of that last quarter when Markovic, who tries, was on him. It is clear to me that Markovic should only play if we cannot pick 3 of Morris, Roughead, Talia, Austin or Roberts.

Macrae looks good, hiskicking was dissapointing at stages but he can find the footy and looks good athletically.

Thats the Libba that was lacking in parts last year, and Dahlhaus continues to make you wonder how he made it to the rookie draft. Clay Smith is another who looks really promising, he is going to be better than Boyd imo. Not so much in quantity of disposals but his precense around stoppages is going to be awesome and he is just going to monster some of his opponents. Great to see so many tackles stick.

All in all the most enjoyable NAB cup match I've watched excluding the glory days of 2010.

btw, as a bonus bit of vision, if you are rewatching the game for whatever reason at the boundary throw in with 50 seconnds left in the 3rd quarter a girl to the top left of screen literally falls out of her seat.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Clay Smith is another who looks really promising, he is going to be better than Boyd imo.



Massive call for Clay

We all like the boy, but gee, its a huge call to say he will be better than Boyd.

Boydy has his detractors and we probably see too much of the negative with him, instead of his amazing willingness to run, push himself from contest to contest and get a hold of the footy.

His game saving tackle is evidence of the way he continues to work and do lots of stuff that we probably dont fully appreciate

[F'scary]

Massive call for Clay

We all like the boy, but gee, its a huge call to say he will be better than Boyd.

Boydy has his detractors and we probably see too much of the negative with him, instead of his amazing willingness to run, push himself from contest to contest and get a hold of the footy.

His game saving tackle is evidence of the way he continues to work and do lots of stuff that we probably dont fully appreciate

Agree 100% on Boyd. I think some forget that he busts his guts so hard trying to make up for all the current shortcomings in the way we are playing that he is frequently playing exhausted and this affects some disposals. He needs more support so he isn't having to do it all by himself - Friday's game indicates to me that it is coming.

On Clay "the Beast" Smith: worthy 1st round selection - too much made of his kicking, its ok.

[bornadog]

Massive call for Clay

We all like the boy, but gee, its a huge call to say he will be better than Boyd.

Boydy has his detractors and we probably see too much of the negative with him, instead of his amazing willingness to run, push himself from contest to contest and get a hold of the footy.

His game saving tackle is evidence of the way he continues to work and do lots of stuff that we probably dont fully appreciate

Too many posters, supporters, fans, focus on the one or two mistakes and judge a players game on that.

[Remi Moses]

On Boyd and his tackle, why wasn't paid a free for incorrect disposal? It was a text book tackle and the player didn't dispose of ball by hand or by foot.

They'd been paying that all Nab cup!
Shocking decision . Great tackle and a great captains game.

[Mofra]

On Clay "the Beast" Smith: worthy 1st round selection - too much made of his kicking, its ok.
Dahlhaus was overlooked in the main draft because of his kicking.
We took Howard in the 1st round because of his kicking.

It will be interesting to see how this improvement in Clay's disposal holds up as the season (and fatigue) wears on, but it seems a mile away from last year's action.

[bornadog]

Dahlhaus was overlooked in the main draft because of his kicking.
We took Howard in the 1st round because of his kicking.

It will be interesting to see how this improvement in Clay's disposal holds up as the season (and fatigue) wears on, but it seems a mile away from last year's action.

How good was Dahls goal along the boundary line

[DragzLS1]

How good was Dahls goal along the boundary line



Ohh yeah that was awesome! Along with Stringer and Clay's 9 pointer! SOo many good signs from our youngsters!

Howard was a high draft kick with an "elite lick" where dahlhaus was a rookie.

I would have Dahlhaus all day every day over Howard. Smith is another that had a terrible kicking style and I would once again pick him over Howard.

[Bulldog Revolution]

How good was Dahls goal along the boundary line

And how good is he one on one, and overhead for a midget

[The Underdog]

Ohh yeah that was awesome! Along with Stringer and Clay's 9 pointer! SOo many good signs from our youngsters!

Howard was a high draft kick with an "elite lick" where dahlhaus was a rookie.

I would have Dahlhaus all day every day over Howard. Smith is another that had a terrible kicking style and I would once again pick him over Howard.

To be fair, Howard was probably over drafted by at least a round.
Although that "elite lick" may have helped :D

[FrediKanoute]

I don't care how good a kick you are, if you can't get the pill in the first place then your kicking is irelevant.

[Ghost Dog]

And how good is he one on one, and overhead for a midget


Yeah what was that. I seem to recall a passage where he outcontested someone who stood a foot taller than him. Can't recall the quarter...

[soupman]

Boydy has his detractors and we probably see too much of the negative with him, instead of his amazing willingness to run, push himself from contest to contest and get a hold of the footy.

Don't get me wrong. I think Boyd is over criticised by many on this forum, where his input to the side almost feels unwelcome, when he is indeed a very good player. I just feel Smith is capable of being a more physical version of Boyd who is going to fling players aside, and seems to have a more attacking instinct. He'll be vey good.


Yeah what was that. I seem to recall a passage where he outcontested someone who stood a foot taller than him. Can't recall the quarter...

Last vs Schoenmakers. Also took some very strong marks infront of his opponent on the lead.

[LostDoggy]

Ohh yeah that was awesome! Along with Stringer and Clay's 9 pointer! SOo many good signs from our youngsters!

Howard was a high draft kick with an "elite lick" where dahlhaus was a rookie.

I would have Dahlhaus all day every day over Howard. Smith is another that had a terrible kicking style and I would once again pick him over Howard.

It just goes to show the scouting and testing isn't an exact science. Much improved over the last decade, but who have to wonder how many young kids, and mature agers, have been overlooked because of a 'perceived deficiency' when that deficiency may have been able to be ironed out over a couple of seasons or not actually have been detrimental in the first place.

Regarding first rounders, scouting and testing should be much more exact than looking at a borderline fourth rounder/rookie/over-looked player. Still bemused how Howard and Grant were picked so high. They're still young but I don't think many would argue that they both haven't warranted their high selections (granted it's not their fault, it's the clubs).

Regarding Boydy. he is what he is. He was a rookie selection who's become a top midfielder of the comp and a club legend. He gets the ball 30 times a match. That's probably 15-20 times more than some 'elite' kicks as Fredi alluded to above.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

How good was Dahls goal along the boundary line

I think he didn't mean it, was trying to hit top of goal square, but we'll take it.

[Greystache]

Western Bulldogs players choose to not sing the club song after pre-season victory

http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2013/03/05/1226591/038935-mitch-wallis.jpg
Mitch Wallis

Western Bulldogs young gun Mitch Wallis was keen to sing the club song after defeating Hawthorn. Picture: Mark Wilson Herald Sun

SENIOR players decreed that the Western Bulldogs wouldn't sing the club theme song at Etihad Stadium last Friday night.
Your SuperCoach shopping list

It was decided to channel the energy and excitment from the narrow NAB Cup win against Hawthorn into longer term goals.

Understandably, the younger Dogs were eager to belt out "Sons of the West'' for the first time since a round 12 home victory against Port Adelaide at the same venue on a mid-June night last year.

"I went up after the game, I was pretty excited, but I came back to reality that it is a practice match. But I'm still passionate about winning and I've only had a few, so everyone counts,'' midfielder Mitch Wallis said.

"In the rooms after the game, it was just a different feeling. It had been a while since our last win, eight or nine months, and to get that feeling again gives us confidence. Training this week has been great so far, how we feel and how we're going about it.

"It was great in the rooms after the game, it was great in the review. Just a feeling you want to sustain and have more than just a few.

"A lot of things we had put in place over the pre-season in terms of structures really came into play and was the reason why we won.

"Our ball movement allowed us to defend the ground better. We found targets and we weren't chasing them all day, they were chasing us. The way we were able to hit the scoreboard and hold onto the footy was probably the main thing.

"So, it gave the boys a lot of confidence that what we're doing is the right thing and moving forward to keep developing those things to hold us in good stead against the top teams.

"That has been a main focus, finishing off quarters and not leaking goals late in quarters. The last five minutes was really great and promising signs for this year.''

The developing Doggies face another stern test against Fremantle in expected 30-plus heat after the long flight and then a bus trip to Mandurah, south of Perth on Saturday.

"Going into this week, you're confident the structures and the game plan that we have can hold up,'' Wallis said.

Link (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/afl/western-bulldogs-players-choose-to-not-sing-the-club-song-after-pre-season-victory/story-e6frexx0-1226591039123)

[Bulldog Joe]

Did notice Big Will with the team around having plenty to say at the conclusion of the game.

Sounds like good leadership from the senior players.

[always right]

It just goes to show the scouting and testing isn't an exact science. Much improved over the last decade, but who have to wonder how many young kids, and mature agers, have been overlooked because of a 'perceived deficiency' when that deficiency may have been able to be ironed out over a couple of seasons or not actually have been detrimental in the first place.

Regarding first rounders, scouting and testing should be much more exact than looking at a borderline fourth rounder/rookie/over-looked player. Still bemused how Howard and Grant were picked so high. They're still young but I don't think many would argue that they both haven't warranted their high selections (granted it's not their fault, it's the clubs).

Regarding Boydy. he is what he is. He was a rookie selection who's become a top midfielder of the comp and a club legend. He gets the ball 30 times a match. That's probably 15-20 times more than some 'elite' kicks as Fredi alluded to above.

Howard was certainly a big reach at the number he was taken but to be fair on Grant, I remember being pretty excited about his video highlights. He looked to be just what we needed. Even now he still looks to have some uniquely special football gifts. I still have hope he will end up being a valuable player for our club.

Sometimes we probably need to accept that recruiters get it wrong...even with all the available information.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

I don't care how good a kick you are, if you can't get the pill in the first place then your kicking is irelevant.

Agreed, and in this case Howard isn't even close to being considered one of the better kicks in the draft let alone elite.


Yeah what was that. I seem to recall a passage where he outcontested someone who stood a foot taller than him. Can't recall the quarter...

It was Shoenmakers and I am pretty sure it was in the last quarter.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Howard was certainly a big reach at the number he was taken but to be fair on Grant, I remember being pretty excited about his video highlights. He looked to be just what we needed. Even now he still looks to have some uniquely special football gifts. I still have hope he will end up being a valuable player for our club.

Sometimes we probably need to accept that recruiters get it wrong...even with all the available information.

Without wishing to be too critical, I thought our team looked better against Hawthorn without the likes of Howard Grant Higgins and Addison. The replacements in Goodes Stevens Lower and Stringer look better prospects going forward.

[Greystache]

Without wishing to be too critical, I thought our team looked better against Hawthorn without the likes of Howard Grant Higgins and Addison. The replacements in Goodes Stevens Lower and Stringer look better prospects going forward.

Not trying to be a smartarse in any way NBP, but what did you make of Jones' performance on Friday? I know you aren't as bullish on his prospects as many others.

[jeemak]

Without wishing to be too critical, I thought our team looked better against Hawthorn without the likes of Howard Grant Higgins and Addison. The replacements in Goodes Stevens Lower and Stringer look better prospects going forward.

Do you really think we'd be better off leaving Higgins out in lieu of the others playing for our club?

[Ghost Dog]

Without wishing to be too critical, I thought our team looked better against Hawthorn without the likes of Howard Grant Higgins and Addison. The replacements in Goodes Stevens Lower and Stringer look better prospects going forward.



It's a fair call, regards Shaun and Christian. But that first chase down tackle from Grant , I think, signalled the turning of a new leaf. It was the aggressive, no holds barred stuff we want to see. If he can bring that to the table every game or at least on a consistent basis, then he's in our best 22.
\

[AndrewP6]

Western Bulldogs players choose to not sing the club song after pre-season victory

[

SENIOR players decreed that the Western Bulldogs wouldn't sing the club theme song at Etihad Stadium last Friday night.

It was decided to channel the energy and excitment from the narrow NAB Cup win against Hawthorn into longer term goals.


Really speaks volumes for the lack of emphasis placed on the NAB cup. Personally, I'd have sung it. As Wallis said, he's only been able to do it a few times, IMO would be good for morale. Could follow it up with words to the effect of "Let's not get carried away, boys", from the leaders.

[Bulldog Revolution]

Don't get me wrong. I think Boyd is over criticised by many on this forum, where his input to the side almost feels unwelcome, when he is indeed a very good player. I just feel Smith is capable of being a more physical version of Boyd who is going to fling players aside, and seems to have a more attacking instinct. He'll be vey good.



I hope you are right, Im sure we all do

But its a massive jump between where Clay is and getting to where Boyd has been over the past 5 years

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Not trying to be a smartarse in any way NBP, but what did you make of Jones' performance on Friday? I know you aren't as bullish on his prospects as many others.
Jones certainly played better. He needs to coming off a poor 2012. I would like to see Roberts and Stringer to emerge as bigger forwards to support Liam who in fairness has been our one only go to forward and we badly need more options up forward. Campbell is another who can go forward as a back up ruckman to Minson.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Do you really think we'd be better off leaving Higgins out in lieu of the others playing for our club?

I do not see Higgins being in our best 22. His best work last year was when he was played out of defence. The drafting of Goodes Stevens Lower and Young and the emergence of JJ combined with the return of Morris strengthens this area.
The forward line becomes too slow by playing both Gia and Higgins who isn't quick.

[jeemak]

I do not see Higgins being in our best 22. His best work last year was when he was played out of defence. The drafting of Goodes Stevens Lower and Young and the emergence of JJ combined with the return of Morris strengthens this area.
The forward line becomes too slow by playing both Gia and Higgins who isn't quick.

I respectfully disagree with you.

His best position is as a forward who can chip in through the middle, and his output was severely hampered by the diabolical state of our one paced and innefficient midfield. He is by no means a perfect player, and some of difficiencies can be put down to work rate and fitness however, he's one of only two classy finishers we have in the forward line.

[chef]

Really speaks volumes for the lack of emphasis placed on the NAB cup. Personally, I'd have sung it. As Wallis said, he's only been able to do it a few times, IMO would be good for morale. Could follow it up with words to the effect of "Let's not get carried away, boys", from the leaders.

My wife was pissed off they didn't sing:D. Hell it's been a why since we've heard it.

[LostDoggy]

I do not see Higgins being in our best 22. His best work last year was when he was played out of defence. The drafting of Goodes Stevens Lower and Young and the emergence of JJ combined with the return of Morris strengthens this area.
The forward line becomes too slow by playing both Gia and Higgins who isn't quick.

Thsi is a massive call. Not saying it's wrong, but for a player who was placed into the leadership a group a few season ago at a young age, to now be considered as not being in the best 22 would be a massive drop.

[always right]

In a team crying out for class, it's ludicrous to suggest Higgins isn't in our best 22.....IMHO:)

[Mofra]

I do not see Higgins being in our best 22. His best work last year was when he was played out of defence. The drafting of Goodes Stevens Lower and Young and the emergence of JJ combined with the return of Morris strengthens this area.
The forward line becomes too slow by playing both Gia and Higgins who isn't quick.
Higgins is a better ball user than all of them - for a team crying out for better ball use there is no way Higgo is behind that group.

I'd prefer him as a high forward - Gia's on his last legs and can't play through injury anymore, and Dickson does well with his defensive pressure but seems better a little closer to goal.

[Ghost Dog]

Higgins is a better ball user than all of them - for a team crying out for better ball use there is no way Higgo is behind that group.

I'd prefer him as a high forward - Gia's on his last legs and can't play through injury anymore, and Dickson does well with his defensive pressure but seems better a little closer to goal.

I'm not sold on that.

All kicks around the ground: SHiggins 2012

115 ( kicks ) 44.0% ( Hit rate ) -9.2% ( not 100% sure on this last stat, but assume it is amount declined by this amount from the previous year )

Shots at Goal: SH
35 ( shots ) 39.6% * Hit rate ) -3.5%
"Hit Rate" measurements show their true worth, taking into account five different characteristics - distance, direction, intent, target zone and pressure.

Link (http://www.news.com.au/sport/best-kicks-in-the-afl-revealed/story-fnect155-1226419850156#ixzz2MqNHnGrR)

Gia isn't on his last legs. People just figure he's been around so long, it must be true. People said that about Huddo and he went and played for Brisbane, and will no doubt have some nice sledges saved up for us this season when he shuffles out onto the paddock yet again.

Random fact. My co-worker is Kelvin Templeton's nephew!

[jeemak]

So from the stats you've shown Higgins along with Boyd and Dahlhaus appear on both the overall and goal kicking lists, while Gia appears on the goal kicking list for the entire competition in 2012?

Wouldn't that mean that Higgins is in the top bracket of kicks at our club, and that Boyd and Dahlhaus are as well?*

Suppose these sorts of stats are good from a quantitative perspective to give one a reference point from which to start. But, as soon as you apply some qualitative perspective to it a completely different story can be told.


*I am prone to missing large amounts of detail, so happy to be proven incorrect! ;)

[Twodogs]

Random fact. My co-worker is Kelvin Templeton's nephew!


Oh. My. God. Really?


Does he/she know him at all?

[Mofra]

I'm not sold on that.

All kicks around the ground: SHiggins 2012

115 ( kicks ) 44.0% ( Hit rate ) -9.2% ( not 100% sure on this last stat, but assume it is amount declined by this amount from the previous year )

Shots at Goal: SH
35 ( shots ) 39.6% * Hit rate ) -3.5%
"Hit Rate" measurements show their true worth, taking into account five different characteristics - distance, direction, intent, target zone and pressure.

Link (http://www.news.com.au/sport/best-kicks-in-the-afl-revealed/story-fnect155-1226419850156#ixzz2MqNHnGrR)
That stat indicates that Daniel Cross is the best kick at the club and Boyd is forth.
I'd struggle to find any Bulldog fan that believes that is the case (FWIW Hargrave's kicking in his last season was a cause for concern on Woof & he's top three on that stat!).

As for Gia, I've been a supporter of his over the years (and often copping flack for it, the old "accepting mediocrity" cliche) but he simply can't play through injury anymore - we need forwards who work both ways and quicker, smart defenders (ie Guerra) cut him up. I expect Dickson to overtake him in 2013, especially given his last NAB cup game (8 tackles in a shortened format).

If he's fit great, but if he's not he needs to be rested. That's before we consider the online outpouring of amazement by many Woofers when it was revealed Gia signed a 2 year contract instead of a 1 year or a 1 + 1.

[DragzLS1]

The thing with GIA is when he comes on he takes the number 1 small defender with him and even without being quick he beats them. He is smart and can play both through the mid and forward. He is very important over this season and will most likely play limited game time to manage his injuries (foot and back i believe over the last 12 months). You cant deny when GIA gets the ball in his hand anywhere near around the 50 you sit back and relax, you know he will finish and finish well and we need more players in our team that can finish the way he does. Higgens is another and Dickson is turning into that player for us who will ultimately take GIA's spot.

[F'scary]

The thing with GIA is when he comes on he takes the number 1 small defender with him and even without being quick he beats them. He is smart and can play both through the mid and forward. He is very important over this season and will most likely play limited game time to manage his injuries (foot and back i believe over the last 12 months). You cant deny when GIA gets the ball in his hand anywhere near around the 50 you sit back and relax, you know he will finish and finish well and we need more players in our team that can finish the way he does. Higgens is another and Dickson is turning into that player for us who will ultimately take GIA's spot.

At the end of the day, Gia kicked a respectable 28 goals last season as a HFF/FP, the most for any of our players. He should therefore be the starting choice this season for one of those positions and take it from there.

[Ghost Dog]

That stat indicates that Daniel Cross is the best kick at the club and Boyd is forth.
I'd struggle to find any Bulldog fan that believes that is the case (FWIW Hargrave's kicking in his last season was a cause for concern on Woof & he's top three on that stat!).

As for Gia, I've been a supporter of his over the years (and often copping flack for it, the old "accepting mediocrity" cliche) but he simply can't play through injury anymore - we need forwards who work both ways and quicker, smart defenders (ie Guerra) cut him up. I expect Dickson to overtake him in 2013, especially given his last NAB cup game (8 tackles in a shortened format).

If he's fit great, but if he's not he needs to be rested. That's before we consider the online outpouring of amazement by many Woofers when it was revealed Gia signed a 2 year contract instead of a 1 year or a 1 + 1.

So you are saying champion data has it wrong? Cross kicked very well last year.


At the end of the day, Gia kicked a respectable 28 goals last season as a HFF/FP, the most for any of our players. He should therefore be the starting choice this season for one of those positions and take it from there.

Very likely he will be top goal scorer again.

[Ghost Dog]

Oh. My. God. Really?


Does he/she know him at all?

He's met him a few times. Kelvin lives in Sydney now. My co-worker's father and him play golf now and then. I might try and jag an interview if I can.

[Ghost Dog]

So from the stats you've shown Higgins along with Boyd and Dahlhaus appear on both the overall and goal kicking lists, while Gia appears on the goal kicking list for the entire competition in 2012?

Wouldn't that mean that Higgins is in the top bracket of kicks at our club, and that Boyd and Dahlhaus are as well?*

Suppose these sorts of stats are good from a quantitative perspective to give one a reference point from which to start. But, as soon as you apply some qualitative perspective to it a completely different story can be told.


*I am prone to missing large amounts of detail, so happy to be proven incorrect! ;)

He's on the list ( Higgins ) but it's not a great conversion rate ( if true ).
I guess there are always ways to interpret stats but I remember Higgins shanking some pretty standard set shots last season and hurting my foot severely when I stomped it on the concrete of Etihad, in response. Who's the stat genius around here?

[jeemak]

He's on the list ( Higgins ) but it's not a great conversion rate ( if true ).
I guess there are always ways to interpret stats but I remember Higgins shanking some pretty standard set shots last season and hurting my foot severely when I stomped it on the concrete of Etihad, in response. Who's the stat genius around here?

So basically what you're telling me is you've used an article listing stats you don't understand to back up a point that is founded on the recollection of a couple of dodgy kicks, as well as a nearly broken foot! :D

[Ghost Dog]

So basically what you're telling me is you've used an article listing stats you don't understand to back up a point that is founded on the recollection of a couple of dodgy kicks, as well as a nearly broken foot! :D

Trolling! :DThe stats are pretty obvious I would have thought. Daniel Cross was a better kick than Shaun Higgins in 2012 according to champion data.

[Bulldog Joe]

Trolling! :DThe stats are pretty obvious I would have thought. Daniel Cross was a better kick than Shaun Higgins in 2012 according to champion data.

That just highlights the flaw inherent in stats.

Find me 1 passionate Bulldog supporter who regularly attends games who would prefer Daniel Cross have the ball on forward 50 over Shaun Higgins.

if you can locate 1 we will have a candidate for a mental institution.

[Ghost Dog]

That just highlights the flaw inherent in stats.

Find me 1 passionate Bulldog supporter who regularly attends games who would prefer Daniel Cross have the ball on forward 50 over Shaun Higgins.

if you can locate 1 we will have a candidate for a mental institution.

Under pressure or not under pressure? Set shot or not? After running out 3 quarters, or in the first quarter?
Lots of variables.
Generally most are going to agree with you, but the stat's are just speaking for 2012.

In any case BDJ, do you still feel Shaun is in our best 22? or outside.
More than one poster thinks Cross is in it and Shaun is out of it. What's your view?

[jeemak]

Under pressure or not under pressure? Set shot or not? After running out 3 quarters, or in the first quarter?
Lots of variables.
Generally most are going to agree with you, but the stat's are just speaking for 2012.

In any case BDJ, do you still feel Shaun is in our best 22? or outside.
More than one poster thinks Cross is in it and Shaun is out of it. What's your view?

But how complex are the options he tries to take? He should be reliable.

I'd have Higgins over Cross BTW, we need some people that can kick goals.

[w3design]

How does that old saying go???.... There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics !
Statistics are great, but they can be manipulated to support any position one cares to take.

Still, no matter how I try to massage our line up options, I find it virtually impossible to fit both Higgins and Gia into the starting line up. Too many weaknesses in common. Sadly I see it as an either or situation.

[jeemak]

That's fair enough mate.

I suppose you need to choose one of them then. Who of the two would it be?

I'd still have both in ahead of Stevens and Lower as forwards, while Dickson is borderline and has a lot of work to do as a second year player to consolidate his position now that opposition teams have had some form to analyse to work out ways to negate him since last season.

I look at our midfield and can't help but think its composition will determine how the rest of the team will look. Cooney is the big unknown. If he's fit you don't really have to worry about a pacey forward line as much because he can rest there and add to it. If he's not then you have a pretty slow trudging midfield that will only make a slowish forward line look worse.

Interesting times. I just think both Higgins and Giansiracusa are known to be extremely talented, and worth a good defender each to keep quiet. I can't say that about the other medium sized options we have.

[w3design]

That's fair enough mate.

I suppose you need to choose one of them then. Who of the two would it be?

I'd still have both in ahead of Stevens and Lower as forwards, while Dickson is borderline and has a lot of work to do as a second year player to consolidate his position now that opposition teams have had some form to analyse to work out ways to negate him since last season.

I look at our midfield and can't help but think its composition will determine how the rest of the team will look. Cooney is the big unknown. If he's fit you don't really have to worry about a pacey forward line as much because he can rest there and add to it. If he's not then you have a pretty slow trudging midfield that will only make a slowish forward line look worse.

Interesting times. I just think both Higgins and Giansiracusa are known to be extremely talented, and worth a good defender each to keep quiet. I can't say that about the other medium sized options we have.


Forced to choose, depending on fitness, I think I would opt for Higgins. As you point out, our midfield does not have a lot of pace as it's strength. Therefore you cannot afford a front 6 with little pace [ apologies to Dal].
If the opposing coach sets a strong bodied but quick defender on either, they get run off, as neither really chase, and Gia can't tackle anything that can move.

Gia is still capable of snagging us 1-2 goals a game. That aside sadly he is a bit of a liability. I think coming on as a sub, he might still get most of those goals.

Agreed, how Cooney's knee holds up is a major key to how we line up this season. If he can run, then he can switch between the mids and attack... best possible option. If he struggles again, then his best role becomes as a forward.

As for Dickson. What you say is true that opposition should now have more of a handle on who he is as a player. But surely this is true of any second year player. Yes he needs to move his game up a notch to continue to be effective. But he also has a years experience at this level, and you would hope that with good coaching, maturity, and a second pre-season and fitness, he will come on too.
He knows his way around a forward 50, has more pace than Higgo and Gia combined, and loves to harass and tackle, which is what you want to see with a small forward.

I have been impressed with what we have seen from both Stevens and Lower to date. But again, it is hard to see where you can fit both into the 22 together, or just who they push out to fit them in.

Just how we line up, and how we utilise our wealth of midfield options in 2013 will be fascinating. There now will be plenty of pressure on guys to step up a level, just to maintain their position in the seniors, which can only be a good thing.

[Bulldog Joe]

Under pressure or not under pressure? Set shot or not? After running out 3 quarters, or in the first quarter?
Lots of variables.
Generally most are going to agree with you, but the stat's are just speaking for 2012.

In any case BDJ, do you still feel Shaun is in our best 22? or outside.
More than one poster thinks Cross is in it and Shaun is out of it. What's your view?

On Fwd 50 there is pressure to score. Higgins can do that. Cross won't even try.

On best 22 Higgins and Cross are both definitely in.

PS
Gia is also still best 22.

[bornadog]

On Fwd 50 there is pressure to score. Higgins can do that. Cross won't even try.

On best 22 Higgins and Cross are both definitely in.

PS
Gia is also still best 22.

Agreed, until the young pups can get some consistency and show they are good enough, Higgins, Cross and Gia are in the best 22.

[Bulldog4life]

On Fwd 50 there is pressure to score. Higgins can do that. Cross won't even try.

On best 22 Higgins and Cross are both definitely in.

PS
Gia is also still best 22.

Agree. Sure the MC will agree too.

[Ghost Dog]

It was Stringer who made the initial tackle and then he put in a second effort to tackle again and a third effort to intercept and then had the presence of mind to kick a goal with the outside of his boot. He showed more talent, skill and fierce competitiveness in one passage of play than Cordy has shown in 5 years

Compare like for like. Nobody is going to compare the intensity of Kruezer to Carazzo. Different players for different purposes.
Cordy kicked a nice snap V Freo that shows he can move and turn quite well when he needs to. Good on the coach for persisting with him and think it's the right call. Only one way to find out if it's a worthwhile experiment. What other second ruck option do we have?