Melbourne rebuild vs Bulldogs rebuild

[wimberga]

Hi all,

On the Herald sun website there is an article regarding Mark Neeld and the backlash he is getting regarding the thrashing of round 1.

see the link below:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/afl/melbourne-coach-mark-neeld-to-ignore-backlash-and-criticism-following-round-1-thrashing/story-e6frexzi-1226611979676

I recommend you watch the video footage on the page from AFL 360 where the David King and Mark Maclure give some pretty interesting opinions on where Melbourne is at and what is wrong there.

What is pleasing to say is around the 2 minute mark, David and Mark start to compare whats happening at Melbourne with us at the Bulldogs. It seems that both of these guys really believe in Macca's rebuild and think we are going about it in the right way which is pleasing to see.

Have a look and post your thoughts below.

[bornadog]

Thank you for posting, I normally try and watch AFL360, but haven';t had a chance lately.

Melbourne's rebuild is suffering because they had their chances to pick up number one draft picks, or early draft picks but they made too many recruiting errors. they also got rid of alot of senior players, but truth be known, they weren't really worth hanging on to.

After 5 years of getting nowhere, they became inpatient at the end of last year and have tried to draft ready made players. Unfortunately you can't just bring in a couple of senior players if you don't have the bones or base of a team and no leadership amongst the playing group.

We have kept our good older players, who are now helping the younger players develop. Yes we have had a gap in our age group around the 23 to 27 mark, but by bringing in players of that age group, we can rebuild. The only real mature player we brought in was Goodes as guys like Stevens(21), Young(21), Lower (25) are still to reach their real prime.

I think we are truly on the right track, and must stick to the blue print, be patient and success will come.

[F'scary]

The Dee's high draft picks have been a tragedy worthy of Shakespeare.

[Hotdog60]

Watched the video and it's nice to know the pundits think were moving in the right direction not that their opinion matters.

As for Melbourne I think something smells a bit funny higher than a playing level. Whoever is guiding and directing the club is making some poor decisions on what path the club is going on.

How many top draft picks have they been able to get and haven't gain at all from it.

I think they shot themselves in the foot when they axed some club stalwarts, showing no loyalty

[Bulldog Joe]

Some pretty good comments, but easy to pot a team after that performance. Just as easy to give us some praise after our effort.

I do, however, see the stark contrast in retaining our experience to help the youth develop.

How many of the posters on this forum have called for the departure of Gia, Cross and even Higgins over the past 2 seasons. That would have been the Melbourne approach.

[bornadog]

Some pretty good comments, but easy to pot a team after that performance. Just as easy to give us some praise after our effort.

I do, however, see the stark contrast in retaining our experience to help the youth develop.

How many of the posters on this forum have called for the departure of Gia, Cross and even Higgins over the past 2 seasons. That would have been the Melbourne approach.

So true, you don't get rid of players or retire them off until, a), they can no longer contribute and b) till you have the right players that are able to replace them.

[Bulldog Joe]

The Dee's high draft picks have been a tragedy worthy of Shakespeare.

We all know that you can get picks wrong, but at Melbourne it seems that they just can't develop the talent.

Collingwood seem to make players of whoever they draft. Perhaps it is also a factor of resources to even select the right football club personnel.

[Mantis]

Some pretty good comments, but easy to pot a team after that performance. Just as easy to give us some praise after our effort.



I watched the show and thought the same... If the shoe was on the other foot we would be the ones under the grill.

Yep, Melbourne were poor, but the re-builds of both teams can't be judged on one result.

[bornadog]

I watched the show and thought the same... If the shoe was on the other foot we would be the ones under the grill.

Yep, Melbourne were poor, but the re-builds of both teams can't be judged on one result.

Taking away any bias, which team do you think will be better in say two years time, based on the current players.

[Scraggers]

The Dee's high draft picks have been a tragedy worthy of Shakespeare.

I tend to disagree ... Every player the Dees picked up with their early picks was touted across our draft threads as a good player and a good fit for the Bulldogs.

I agree with Mantis in that its early days yet and too early to judge, but I do think we are on the correct pathway.

[Remi Moses]

Someone on one of the forums predicted The media will turn on their recruiting by half way.
They were 10 weeks out! ( hello Rohan Connolly)
The dees will fire up this week, but it's the pursuing weeks that matter.
I think they're coaching and development is poor and has stymied players development.
The kids aside, the ins are worse than the outs this season

[Greystache]

Not sure if this is the right thread...this does discuss our youth policy though

http://theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/time-for-seasoned-to-be-jolly-20130222-2exec.html



Pointless article to fill column inches while not much is happening. You know that in a few months when Melbourne are rubbish and Richmond has missed the finals he'll write another article criticising the recruiting of recycled players and lack of faith in the draft and their ability to develop youth.

These type of articles get written on the flavour of the day, forgotten tomorrow, and contradicted next month. Mike Sheehan was a classic for it.

I think this is what you're talking about. I'm looking forward to hearing Rohan's current thoughts seeing as the Tiger's mature recruits are playing two's and Melbourne's were horrendous.

[Mantis]

Taking away any bias, which team do you think will be better in say two years time, based on the current players.

Who knows??

In 2 years time we could quite possibly have no Cross, Gia, Murphy, Morris & Boyd in our team - they are still very influential players. How the others develop in the meantime will determine where we are.

Melbourne aren't as bad as they were on the weekend and I expect they will improve over the course of the season.

[Mofra]

It is an interesting comparison - Melbourne have gone hell for leather at a youth policy, we've gone for a mix of young players and "mentors".

Morris comes back to the defensive group, Murphy goes forward as the bones of our forwardline (Jones & Cordy) have two mentors, Murph & Gia. Goodes joins Morris as a backline mentor.

Boyd & Cross are in the middle, the midfield group have (damn tough) mentors.

The mature agers we have introduced into the side are not core members of the team - yes Lower is playing an important role, but the core group (spine & midfield) are Cordy, Jones, Roughead, Wallis, Libba, Smith, Dahlhaus ... and hopefully Talia, Hrovat, Macrae and Stringer with versatile types like Roberts hopefully playing a role. You could mount an argument for every single one of those players playing 200 games.

[Mofra]

In 2 years time we could quite possibly have no Cross, Gia, Murphy, Morris & Boyd in our team - they are still very influential players. How the others develop in the meantime will determine where we are.
That's a difficult bunch to cover - but I'd argue Murphy is the only one we don't have a direct replacement for.

Cross & Boyd look fine with Smith, Libba & Wallis coming on (ignoring what Hrovat or Stevens may become)
Gia - Dickson
Morris - I may just be (happily) wrong about Young. Wood can play lock-down but gives up 2-3 inches to Morris even if he does play taller than his height.

A silky moving HF type would be fantastic - although Stringer looks set to play a high forward role anyway (Macrae has Murph's evasiveness but looks set to become a midfielder).

Personally I'd love us to look at adding rebounding HBFer to the list, remain unconvinced by Howard & Tutt in that role.

[Mantis]

That's a difficult bunch to cover - but I'd argue Murphy is the only one we don't have a direct replacement for.

Cross & Boyd look fine with Smith, Libba & Wallis coming on (ignoring what Hrovat or Stevens may become)
Gia - Dickson
Morris - I may just be (happily) wrong about Young. Wood can play lock-down but gives up 2-3 inches to Morris even if he does play taller than his height.

A silky moving HF type would be fantastic - although Stringer looks set to play a high forward role anyway (Macrae has Murph's evasiveness but looks set to become a midfielder).

Personally I'd love us to look at adding rebounding HBFer to the list, remain unconvinced by Howard & Tutt in that role.

Most of the players you have mentioned as the replacements are alreday in our best 22 so we need to cover them too.

[Bulldog Joe]

Most of the players you have mentioned as the replacements are alreday in our best 22 so we need to cover them too.

But surely that is part of the ongoing transition. Those younger players now in our best 22 will (hopefully) be the nucleus of a successful team over 7 to 10 years and provide the experience and mentoring for newer players as they come into the team.

[Remi Moses]

Most of the players you have mentioned as the replacements are alreday in our best 22 so we need to cover them too.

There in the 22 but besides Murphy and Morris the others will be covered.
The hit up forward target is going to be the hardest.

[Remi Moses]

But surely that is part of the ongoing transition. Those younger players now in our best 22 will (hopefully) be the nucleus of a successful team over 7 to 10 years and provide the experience and mentoring for newer players as they come into the team.

Exactly. Grant , West and Darcy were in our best 22 in 07.
Fast forward 12 months all were replaced.

[Mofra]

Most of the players you have mentioned as the replacements are alreday in our best 22 so we need to cover them too.
Players stepping in tot he seniors without transition/guidance seems to be the Melbourne model that is not currently working for them. I'm happy with our development model.

[Remi Moses]

I think this is what you're talking about. I'm looking forward to hearing Rohan's current thoughts seeing as the Tiger's mature recruits are playing two's and Melbourne's were horrendous.

Looks a good call.
Pedersen v Martin ( Martin's a better player)
Moloney v Rodan ( no brainer)
Gillies v Rivers( another no brainer)
The in's are a lot worse than the outs

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I watched the show and thought the same... If the shoe was on the other foot we would be the ones under the grill.

Yep, Melbourne were poor, but the re-builds of both teams can't be judged on one result.

I agree with these comments. It really comes down to developing the right culture which is the task of Peter Gordon, Simon Garlick and Brendan McCartney. Geelong have been an outstanding example of this in recent years with good people in Frank Costa, Cook, Thompson and now Chris Scott leading the charge. We are all very excited after the first win over the Brisbane Lions. Saturday's encounter against Fremantle will be a better guide to where we might be heading.

[Ghost Dog]

Is there a question mark over their fitness? Because it's a sport, and at the end of the day, you get that confidence in your body, when you've trained well and in your peripheral vision, see a bloke and think, no worries, I can take this guy on.

[Ghost Dog]

Did anyone else watch the presser after Melbourne's latest drubbing?
Gulping like a fish out of water, looking like he may burst into tears at any second. Very hard to watch.

I can't understand how the co-captaincy arrangement is supposed to work.
When we were getting our arses handed to us last season, at least you could look at Matty Boyd and know for sure
he wasn't going to come sulking off the field, or let anyone off the hook. A mature captain is what you want around a developing club.

[Hotdog60]

Dead man walking

[SlimPickens]

Really feel for Neeld absolutely fantastic bloke and really well respected within the industry, just can't see how his position is tenable. The players just won't play for him but what's even more concerning is it appears they won't play for one another.

If Neeld goes I'd suggest Cameron Schwab would have to follow. There needs to be a complete culture shift within that footy club. It's a sorry state of affairs.

[azabob]

Really feel for Neeld absolutely fantastic bloke and really well respected within the industry, just can't see how his position is tenable. The players just won't play for him but what's even more concerning is it appears they won't play for one another.

If Neeld goes I'd suggest Cameron Schwab would have to follow. There needs to be a complete culture shift within that footy club. It's a sorry state of affairs.

I'd be more inclined to leave Neeld in his role.

Sack Connolly, Schwab and not let G.Lyon near the place or have any decision making power.

[AndrewP6]

Is there a question mark over their fitness? Because it's a sport, and at the end of the day, you get that confidence in your body, when you've trained well and in your peripheral vision, see a bloke and think, no worries, I can take this guy on.

When you're that much down on confidence/belief/trust in yourself and each other, it, doesn't matter how fit you are. That sort of feeling can be almost paralysing.

[ledge]

Watching the Pre game speech by Neeld they looked down depressed and beaten before the game and Neeld didn't exactly come across up lifting and hopeful, to me it was a very very down looking place to be in.

[westdog54]

I'd be more inclined to leave Neeld in his role.

Sack Connolly, Schwab and not let G.Lyon near the place or have any decision making power.

Lyon actually said yesterday he had no interest in being actively involved with the club and only did what he did because he couldn't say no to a great mate.

[comrade]

Lyon actually said yesterday he had no interest in being actively involved with the club and only did what he did because he couldn't say no to a great mate.

Lyon is a squib. Of course he would say that now. If they were flying, he'd first in line to take credit.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Lyon is a squib. Of course he would say that now. If they were flying, he'd first in line to take credit.

This.

[Greystache]

Lyon is a squib. Of course he would say that now. If they were flying, he'd first in line to take credit.

Spot on.

[Topdog]

Lyon is a squib. Of course he would say that now. If they were flying, he'd first in line to take credit.

Possibly agree with the first sentence but to be fair to him he said it about a minute after he agreed to it as well.

[jeemak]

Lyon actually said yesterday he had no interest in being actively involved with the club and only did what he did because he couldn't say no to a great mate.

With respect, Gary Lyon is full of shit.

I really rated him as a player, but post his playing career he's been happy to meddle behind the scenes but not put his balls on the line and take an active and accountable role at the footy club.

It's time he buggered off, and let the club move on without him.

[Greystache]

With respect, Gary Lyon is full of shit.

I really rated him as a player, but post his playing career he's been happy to meddle behind the scenes but not put his balls on the line and take an active and accountable role at the footy club.

It's time he buggered off, and let the club move on without him.

He's Like Dimmatina with the Bulldogs, but rather than trying to generate publicity for his business, he does it to build his public image. Basically both are just users of their former football clubs and in the end give *!*!*!*! all back.

[anfo27]

I'd be more inclined to leave Neeld in his role.

Sack Connolly, Schwab and not let G.Lyon near the place or have any decision making power.

I'd like Neeld to stay in his role but thats only because i'm happy to see Melbourne in this predicament. It has been obvious from day dot that the players will not play for Neeld.
We have all seen their list & thought they have some talent but when you have players like Rivers & Moloney playing nowhere near their best & then running for greener pastures when the season is up then something isn't right. It sounds like when he arrived at the club he polarized the senior group & from that moment the players didn't respect him & have not/will not play for him.
Neeld will be sacked, its just a matter of time.

[Ghost Dog]

It's cold and dark there at the bottom of the tank...drip, drip.

Well, they positioned for picks, and stuffed it up. People only forget if you get it right it seems ( um...pies )

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2013/02/19/1226581/416182-macca.jpg

[bulldogsman]

He's Like Dimmatina with the Bulldogs, but rather than trying to generate publicity for his business, he does it to build his public image. Basically both are just users of their former football clubs and in the end give *!*!*!*! all back.

There was talk Dimma would go on the board after Smorgon left. So all talk again?

[The Underdog]

It's cold and dark there at the bottom of the tank...drip, drip.

Well, they positioned for picks, and stuffed it up. People only forget if you get it right it seems ( um...pies )

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2013/02/19/1226581/416182-macca.jpg

Did we get it right?

[bornadog]

There was talk Dimma would go on the board after Smorgon left. So all talk again?

The process to get on the board is to be interviewed by a panel. Whether he put his name up, I wouldn't know.

[Mantis]

When looking at Melbourne's drafting/ trading from last year it needs to be remembered that they also gained Hogan in the 17yo mini-draft who looks an exceptional talent.... They gave a bit away to get him, which they had to do, but when you consider they got Viney, Toumpas & Hogan it looks more than reasonable.

[Mofra]

When looking at Melbourne's drafting/ trading from last year it needs to be remembered that they also gained Hogan in the 17yo mini-draft who looks an exceptional talent.... They gave a bit away to get him, which they had to do, but when you consider they got Viney, Toumpas & Hogan it looks more than reasonable.
In isolation yes, but look at the way they're building the side - trading heavily for Clark and Dawes, then taking Pederson (WTF?), Rodan, Byrnes, etc.

Essentially, they're doing the opposite to us. We're building from the "inside out", taking Smith the year after we nabbed Wallis & Libba, and despite having a full compliment of inside mids (even accounting for Higgins & Addison who played inside mids as juniors but now play elsewhere) we took Prudden, Hrovat & Stringer (played inside mid at VFL level as much as a forward) at the draft and traded/signed Stevens & Lower.

It's an interesting strategy, but they're paying for it now - Viney, after two games, is their second most important midfielder after Jones.

Like it or loath it, we're clearly sticking to building the team from "the inside out" and the whole club has bought into the mantra.
Melbourne said they want to be "the hardest team in he competition to play against" yet their list management does not seem to reflect that statement.

[Mantis]

In isolation yes, but look at the way they're building the side - trading heavily for Clark and Dawes, then taking Pederson (WTF?), Rodan, Byrnes, etc.

Essentially, they're doing the opposite to us. We're building from the "inside out", taking Smith the year after we nabbed Wallis & Libba, and despite having a full compliment of inside mids (even accounting for Higgins & Addison who played inside mids as juniors but now play elsewhere) we took Prudden, Hrovat & Stringer (played inside mid at VFL level as much as a forward) at the draft and traded/signed Stevens & Lower.

It's an interesting strategy, but they're paying for it now - Viney, after two games, is their second most important midfielder after Jones.

Like it or loath it, we're clearly sticking to building the team from "the inside out" and the whole club has bought into the mantra.
Melbourne said they want to be "the hardest team in he competition to play against" yet their list management does not seem to reflect that statement.

Yep, agree that their strategy has been a little strange - almost trying to have 2 bites of the apple, by drafting both long term & short term options.

Could part of this strategy have been because it was rumoured that the penalties to be handed down due to the tanking fiasco were going to include the loss of current & future draft picks so they just 'burnt' them all before the decision was made?

[Sedat]

When looking at Melbourne's drafting/ trading from last year it needs to be remembered that they also gained Hogan in the 17yo mini-draft who looks an exceptional talent.... They gave a bit away to get him, which they had to do, but when you consider they got Viney, Toumpas & Hogan it looks more than reasonable.
Development of the talent once it arrives at the club has been Melbourne's biggest downfall, not the actual talent they bring to the club. It's the old chicken and egg argument - is the talent actually there or has the young talent not been developed to its fullest potential once it arrives? I'd say Melbourne have developed poorly moreso than drafted poorly in the last few years.

[LostDoggy]

Yep, agree that their strategy has been a little strange - almost trying to have 2 bites of the apple, by drafting both long term & short term options.

Could part of this strategy have been because it was rumoured that the penalties to be handed down due to the tanking fiasco were going to include the loss of current & future draft picks so they just 'burnt' them all before the decision was made?

You could safely assume that couldn't you? We were all shocked when they were given the slap on the wrist that they received, obviously because the AFL thought if they took away draft picks they'd kill the club.

I would've preferred the AFL did it the other way around — no financial penalties whatsoever, but a loss of draft picks. Would've sent the right message, and been closer to justice.

Either way, the worst part of Melbourne's dilemma, and where it differs from struggles we've been through, and Fitzroy, etc. is that nobody feels very sorry for them. They gamed the system and lost.

[Sedat]

Either way, the worst part of Melbourne's dilemma, and where it differs from struggles we've been through, and Fitzroy, etc. is that nobody feels very sorry for them. They gamed the system and lost.
I stopped feeling sorry for them ever since Round 22 1987 - not too many people were happy to see Buckenara break their hearts a few weeks later in the 1987 PF but I found it very amusing at the time (still do). Hated it when Loinchop kicked 10 goals against our midget defenders in the 1994 finals series, and my dislike for them was cemented by the awful Jeff White free kick against Wayde Skipper in early 2005. Factor in front running cats like Darren Cuthbertson, Adem Yze, Aaron Davey, Travis Johnstone, Russell Robertson and Shane Woewoful who all used to torch us from time to time and they are a club that won't get an ounce of sympathy from me for their current self-inflicted plight. Not to mention conspiring with GC and GWS last year to ensure that Viney slipped through to pick 27, so they can GOGF right now as far as I'm concerned.

Yep, I've been known to hold a grudge....

[craigsahibee]

I stopped feeling sorry for them ever since Round 22 1987 - not too many people were happy to see Buckenara break their hearts a few weeks later in the 1987 PF but I found it very amusing at the time (still do). Hated it when Loinchop kicked 10 goals against our midget defenders in the 1994 finals series, and my dislike for them was cemented by the awful Jeff White free kick against Wayde Skipper in early 2005. Factor in front running cats like Darren Cuthbertson, Adem Yze, Aaron Davey, Travis Johnstone, Russell Robertson and Shane Woewoful who all used to torch us from time to time and they are a club that won't get an ounce of sympathy from me for their current self-inflicted plight. Not to mention conspiring with GC and GWS last year to ensure that Viney slipped through to pick 27, so they can GOGF right now as far as I'm concerned.

Yep, I've been known to hold a grudge....

And I thought it was just me.

"Note - Skipper free kick was second last round in 2005. The loss of that game meant we had to rely on the Bombers defeating Melbourne in the final round to allow us to play finals"

[Greystache]

Just saw that in an open letter on the Melbourne website Neeld has got the full support of the board- Dead man walking.

[KT31]

Just saw that in an open letter on the Melbourne website Neeld has got the full support of the board- Dead man walking.

From a selfish point I hope they keep him at least until our game.;)
I like Sedat don't have any sympathy for them.
For years at work I had to listen to a arrogant Dee's supportor and it just grated on me.
They where my biggest hate side for years until the Saint's game out of the woodwork.
Only reason they are still in the competition is because of their name.

[westdog54]

With respect, Gary Lyon is full of shit.

I really rated him as a player, but post his playing career he's been happy to meddle behind the scenes but not put his balls on the line and take an active and accountable role at the footy club.

It's time he buggered off, and let the club move on without him.

How does he convince the general public that he's done that, short of barracking for another team?

[Mofra]

Development of the talent once it arrives at the club has been Melbourne's biggest downfall, not the actual talent they bring to the club. It's the old chicken and egg argument - is the talent actually there or has the young talent not been developed to its fullest potential once it arrives? I'd say Melbourne have developed poorly moreso than drafted poorly in the last few years.
I think trading strategy has something to do with this - they packaged off a lot of their older brigade who would have certainly helped the young kids develop properly (James McDonald a prime example).

They've now panicked and tried to correct a list imbalance by trading - and they've got that wrong too (Rodan & Pederson??).
Double whammy.

[Remi Moses]

The development of their players is the big problem.
That with seasons of ingraining a losing thought process .
The fans then the players got a feeling that things will be okay with early picks.
The only time they've been a fearsome foe was under Northey.

Footnote. Who will forget their members voting the club out of existence !

[NoParkingOnMatchDays]

You could safely assume that couldn't you? We were all shocked when they were given the slap on the wrist that they received, obviously because the AFL thought if they took away draft picks they'd kill the club.

I would've preferred the AFL did it the other way around — no financial penalties whatsoever, but a loss of draft picks. Would've sent the right message, and been closer to justice.

Either way, the worst part of Melbourne's dilemma, and where it differs from struggles we've been through, and Fitzroy, etc. is that nobody feels very sorry for them. They gamed the system and lost.

The AFL investigation was so hamfisted and amateurish that Melbourne actually wanted the AFL to go hard on them. They had a list of QC's and a case lined lined up (obviously supporters) ready to take the AFL to court where Andy and Co would have been hugely embarrassed and laughed out on their backsides.

[jeemak]

How does he convince the general public that he's done that, short of barracking for another team?

Would the first step be to actually do it?

It's clear his partial involvement hasn't worked to this point, so he should either back right off or go all in.

The footy world's small enough for people to genuinely know if he's stepped away. After all, how does everyone know he's currently a big player behind the scenes?

[KT31]

I met Gary Lyon and thought he was arrogant dick.
I have also met Paul Roos and thought the same.
The difference between the two is Roosie can be as arrogant as he wants, he put his heart and sole on the line and won his club a flag.
Lyon has just trid to make a name for himself in the media and is just a prize twat.

[LostDoggy]

How does he convince the general public that he's done that, short of barracking for another team?

Well, first, of course, he needs to do it. Then he needs to stop being photographed outside headquarters every time there's a crisis, start backing the club in the media from the position of former-player-turned-just-plain-old-supporter, and stop putting his name up for the panel to pick the coach.

The comparison other posters have drawn to Dimattina is spot on, except Lyon has real clout. His primary focus all this time seems to have been in “helping” his former club whilst distancing his reputation from the outcomes. A lot of flak thrown at Neeld and Craig, but they at least put their name on the board.

I'm actually really looking forward to seeing the Footy Show this week, just to watch that hairy buffoon have an opinion without having an opinion.

[Ghost Dog]

Schwab gone. Gets boring listening to the media go on about Melbourne Footy Club. It's like having to read about some failed, rehab rebounding celeb in the paper all the time.

[jeemak]

So even with the off-field turnaround of the club throughout his tenure he's been given the flick.

Did he have a great deal of input into the club's on-field running? Or is this a sign that he had more to do with the tanking scandal than meets the eye?

Could you imagine Campbell Rose being given the flick by Smorgon if we crumbled in 2008-2010 after the shocking 2007 we had?

[Remi Moses]

Tanking front an centre. They couldn't nail him and wouldn't be shocked if the Dees got a call from HQ.
We'll help but get rid of Schwab.

[jeemak]

Tanking front an centre. They couldn't nail him and wouldn't be shocked if the Dees got a call from HQ.
We'll help but get rid of Schwab.

It's not that hard to fathom, is it.

To be honest I thought it was Neeld that would go first. What happens now if they get another couple of poor defeats at home against West Coast and GWS?

Sack the CEO, the coach! Sack everyone! Just don't expect the players to be harder than a poo sandwich.

[ledge]

I find it strange Schwab said the club had turned around financially but he was sacked for the failure on the field, was he the list manager as well?

[ledge]

I am backing the coach will be sacked due to lack of merchandise turnover.

[Ghost Dog]

Rohan Conolly writes the AFL should step in and administer the MCC. A bit of a silly call don't you all think? It's not like they haven't got enough nous around the place. And haven't they had enough on field assistance? List selection is a gamble. They either lost or didn't develop well. So it goes - just let it be. The became complacent with their board. Well, let them suffer through it.
Dean Baily must finally feel a bit of justice has played out.

[Maddog37]

Everything I have seen from the first time he was interviewed and the first time he coached tells me Neeld is simply not a good fit for Melbourne.

Time for the AFL to make Leigh Mathews an offer he can't refuse.

[Sedat]

The obsession with young, untried coaches is laughable to be honest. They have been in vogue for a few seasons now, but there has been more failures than success stories with this demographic. For every Chris Scott there are 2-3 Bailey, Primus and Knights train wrecks - and Neeld looks like being the biggest train wreck of the lot.

Of all the teams in the AFL, Melbourne need an experienced, well-respected coach steering the ship - someone that has seen everything in the box and won't be spooked by opposition structures and tactics. Someone who will commands respect of the players and the off-field staff due to their previous output at other clubs. Basically any one of Rocket, Bomber, Choco and Roos would be ideal for the Demons, so I hope they keep hold of Neeld for much longer ;)

[Ghost Dog]

The obsession with young, untried coaches is laughable to be honest. They have been in vogue for a few seasons now, but there has been more failures than success stories with this demographic. For every Chris Scott there are 2-3 Bailey, Primus and Knights train wrecks - and Neeld looks like being the biggest train wreck of the lot.

Of all the teams in the AFL, Melbourne need an experienced, well-respected coach steering the ship - someone that has seen everything in the box and won't be spooked by opposition structures and tactics. Someone who will commands respect of the players and the off-field staff due to their previous output at other clubs. Basically any one of Rocket, Bomber, Choco and Roos would be ideal for the Demons, so I hope they keep hold of Neeld for much longer ;)

Melbourne knocked back Kevin Sheedy. Didn't they?

[Remi Moses]

I find it strange Schwab said the club had turned around financially but he was sacked for the failure on the field, was he the list manager as well?

Incredibly 48 hrs earlier Mclardy said Schwab wasn't going to go!:eek:

[Remi Moses]

The obsession with young, untried coaches is laughable to be honest. They have been in vogue for a few seasons now, but there has been more failures than success stories with this demographic. For every Chris Scott there are 2-3 Bailey, Primus and Knights train wrecks - and Neeld looks like being the biggest train wreck of the lot.

Of all the teams in the AFL, Melbourne need an experienced, well-respected coach steering the ship - someone that has seen everything in the box and won't be spooked by opposition structures and tactics. Someone who will commands respect of the players and the off-field staff due to their previous output at other clubs. Basically any one of Rocket, Bomber, Choco and Roos would be ideal for the Demons, so I hope they keep hold of Neeld for much longer ;)

That's been happening for an eternity though.

[LostDoggy]

Incredibly 48 hrs earlier Mclardy said Schwab wasn't going to go!:eek:

Melbourne is proof positive of the saying, you should judge people by their actions, not their words.

[Bulldog Joe]

Great article on Melbourne from Tim Collins who runs a sports website


http://thesidelineagenda.com/2013/04/10/neeld-demons-revolution-afl-rebuild/

[Bulldog4life]

Great article on Melbourne from Tim Collins who runs a sports website


http://thesidelineagenda.com/2013/04/10/neeld-demons-revolution-afl-rebuild/

Great article BJ.

[mjp]

The article is a good read but to criticise Neeld and his staff based on what happened at training sessions conducted prior to their arrival at the club is a bit tough. Nothing like kicking someone when they are down I suppose...saying that 'nothing has changed' as using on-field performances as evidence of that is simply not fair.

If people were using 2011 examples from the Eade regime as evidence of what happens at the Dogs today we would all be calling for the journo's head.

[Bulldog Joe]

The article is a good read but to criticise Neeld and his staff based on what happened at training sessions conducted prior to their arrival at the club is a bit tough. Nothing like kicking someone when they are down I suppose...saying that 'nothing has changed' as using on-field performances as evidence of that is simply not fair.

If people were using 2011 examples from the Eade regime as evidence of what happens at the Dogs today we would all be calling for the journo's head.

While I agree with your point, I do see the article as suggesting that the problem is ingrained and deeper than the coach. Despite bringing a fitness guy who worked with Lyon at St Kilda, they simply haven't transferred anything onto the field.

[Mofra]

The article is a good read but to criticise Neeld and his staff based on what happened at training sessions conducted prior to their arrival at the club is a bit tough. Nothing like kicking someone when they are down I suppose...saying that 'nothing has changed' as using on-field performances as evidence of that is simply not fair.
I wouldn't be too quick to assume significant change in 2012 given North's assessment of Gysberts.

I also believe Neeld is on a hiding to nothing - Sheedy's comments about "getting the feeling they wanted a coach they could control" is telling.

Contrast this to B-Mac's approach. Some (many going on last year) may not agree with it, but there's little doubt B-Mac is doing things his way and not bending to the will of the board

[Greystache]

I wouldn't be too quick to assume significant change in 2012 given North's assessment of Gysberts.

I also believe Neeld is on a hiding to nothing - Sheedy's comments about "getting the feeling they wanted a coach they could control" is telling.

Contrast this to B-Mac's approach. Some (many going on last year) may not agree with it, but there's little doubt B-Mac is doing things his way and not bending to the will of the board

Garlick was on SEN just a minute ago saying something along the same lines. He was asked about how much Fantasia's exit would hurt and he eluded it wouldn't be too much given we have Graham and also because McCartney has so much experience and clear beliefs in how we should be doing things we won't be too impacted.

[LostDoggy]

Garlick was on SEN just a minute ago saying something along the same lines. He was asked about how much Fantasia's exit would hurt and he eluded it wouldn't be too much given we have Graham and also because McCartney has so much experience and clear beliefs in how we should be doing things we won't be too impacted.

Is this perhaps a reason Fantasia has left? Had little influence over the footy department so started fishing around for another role?

[ledge]

Fantasia was recruited into the club to be the referee between Rose and Eade wasn't he?
what I gathered Rodney was doing all the press stuff as well as coaching because Rose was trying to keep a lid on the finances.
Also Rose was very tight on the actual football side of things frustrating Rocket.

We now have a CEO who played the game and understand that the football department needs looking after as well ,as we know Perer Gordon has stated more money will be put into
The football department.
Based on this I think Fantasias time was up with both the players he was bought in to work with are gone.

[anfo27]

Great article on Melbourne from Tim Collins who runs a sports website


http://thesidelineagenda.com/2013/04/10/neeld-demons-revolution-afl-rebuild/

Thanks for the link BJ, enjoyed reading the article.

[Ghost Dog]

Thanks Joe
Imagine there will be a lot of players clamoring to leave Melbourne at the end of the season.

[Mofra]

Given we hired three people in the past 18 months to fulfil alot of Fantasia's role, do we even need a replacement?

A shuffling of responsibilities and another member of the support staff may suffice. Seems to be alot of positive talk about Ben Graham at the moment.

[Hotdog60]

Given we hired three people in the past 18 months to fulfill alot of Fantasia's role, do we even need a replacement?

A shuffling of responsibilities and another member of the support staff may suffice. Seems to be alot of positive talk about Ben Graham at the moment.

Could Ben Graham have been earmark to fill this role at some stage when he was appointed.

[bornadog]

Given we hired three people in the past 18 months to fulfil alot of Fantasia's role, do we even need a replacement?

A shuffling of responsibilities and another member of the support staff may suffice. Seems to be alot of positive talk about Ben Graham at the moment.

You still need to manage these people. Who do they report to? Who checks their accountability, reviews their performance etc. I think its too much for a coach (thats why Rocket couldn't cope with it without impacting his coaching role), its also too much for the CEO.

The football managers role is a very important role and can only be filled by a professional manager with a football club background. Has Ben Graham got these attributes? How would he go managing Macca, recruitment, contract negotiators, assistant coaches, medical staff, trainers, fitness staff etc etc.

Its a huge role and I believe was also beyond Fantasia, so lets look for some one with experience and knowledge of running a football club.

[Ghost Dog]

Given the talent we have at the middle management level, I'm really excited to see who we are going to get. Someone from Geelong probably!

[westdog54]

Given we hired three people in the past 18 months to fulfil alot of Fantasia's role, do we even need a replacement?

A shuffling of responsibilities and another member of the support staff may suffice. Seems to be alot of positive talk about Ben Graham at the moment.

At the very least someone like Graham could act as an interim manager while we do a thorough head-hunting expedition.

If it turns out Graham has the attributes to do the job and exceeds any other candidate we find, so be it.

Given he's such a recent arrival to the club I wouldn't exactly consider him an 'internal' candidate in the same way someone like Dalrymple might be viewed.

Perhaps Fantasia felt threatened by the talent below him...

[Mofra]

You still need to manage these people. Who do they report to? Who checks their accountability, reviews their performance etc.
The same person Fantasia reported to? If they're fulfilling the same function (albeit split three ways) we may not need to disrupt the structure too much.


At the very least someone like Graham could act as an interim manager while we do a thorough head-hunting expedition.

If it turns out Graham has the attributes to do the job and exceeds any other candidate we find, so be it.
Anecdotally the NFL is the most professional sporting organisation in the world - that has to count in Graham's favour.

[Greystache]

Another pathetic capitulation from Melbourne again, 84 points after half time. If they lose to GWS next week they may have to start rebuilding the rebuild of the rebuild.

[bornadog]

The same person Fantasia reported to? If they're fulfilling the same function (albeit split three ways) we may not need to disrupt the structure too much. .

I don't understand what you have written? What I am saying is the staff that reported to Fantasia cannot simply now report directly to the CEO, it would be a shambles. You need a Football Manager with experience.

[jeemak]

I don't understand what you have written? What I am saying is the staff that reported to Fantasia cannot simply now report directly to the CEO, it would be a shambles. You need a Football Manager with experience.

It's probably one of the things that doesn't get focussed on about Fantasia's input, around here.

Whilst I'll always agree some contracts (and their management) overseen by Fantasia were too loose, he seemed to put a stop to some of the management issues at the club since his arrival. From what I can gather we're in a better position in the area under his control now, than when he started. Whether he gets the credit for that, or not, it's not up for me to decide but him going to a club with better resources than ours and ability to pay probably suggests he's got some strong points.

I don't think our next football manager needs to be a candidate with specific experience in the role, though some extreme diligence in recruiting somebody to such a necessary position needs to be maintained through the selection process to get the person we need.

[ledge]

I think fantasia has left due to Money and our list is in pretty much good shape where as hawthorns older list means in a couple of years they will be rebuilding as much as us and he will find himself in a much more secure job with a lot of new contracts to write up.