Three things I've learned - Round 3

[westdog54]

Three things I've learned after watching the dogs and the tigers.


Our small forwards will get carved up by good backlines if that's their maximum workrate.
If our midfield group can't learn to break tags, we'll go nowhere. Libba was a non-factor today.
Ivan Maric will be the All-Australian ruckman this season if he stays fit. Took Minson to the cleaners.


Be kind.

[bornadog]

Ivan Maric will be the All-Australian ruckman this season if he stays fit. Took Minson to the cleaners.
[/LIST] .

Really, Maric had 16 hitouts to Minsons 32??

[bornadog]

1. Confirmed we are not going to win many games this year.

2. Macca doesn't know how to make moves during a game. Basically the players stayed in the positions they started the game in. Surely when you are getting flogged you can make a couple of moves?

3. Skills, have not improved from last year. Still have a lot of work to do.

[PedroArvy]

1. It feels like the new season has settled in and so are we in the bottom 4-6 teams.

2. I can't see any real long term hope in a new forward line emerging. There are no new players and what we have seems to lack speed, strength and marking skills.

3. Guido - it's got to be your last year. Too slow!

[Ghost Dog]

1. We don't have the depth I thought we did.
2. The coach has to take responsibility for the match ups and lack of tenacity today. Structurally, we were not right today.
3. Liam Jones will make it as a full forward.

[anfo27]

1. Minson & Campbell should never play in the same side again.
2. It costs alot of money to sit on level 2 at Etihad stadium if you don't have a membership.
3. I still hate Richmond supporters.

[Yankee Hotel Foxtrot]

1. Campbell cannot be in the side as the second ruck.
2. Picken is a liability as a defender.
3. Liam Jones is improving

[LostDoggy]

1. Richmond are better than I thought. Think they'll surprise a few this year.
2. I feel its much more ppsitive that Jones and Roughy will be part of a solid spine for the next 8 years
3. We need the inside grunt macca was talking about but only if it comes with leg speed and polish. We also need a skillfull 191cm half back to be drafted with one of our next couple of years 1st round picks.

[always right]

1. I learned we are very slow when we turn the ball over.
2. I learned that our structures around stoppages today were woeful. How many times did they have more than one bloke sitting out the back of packs unattended.
3. The performance of Williamstown yesterday should result in changes next week.

[Greystache]

Really, Maric had 16 hitouts to Minsons 32??

Maric had 8 hitouts to advantage and several that directly resulted in goals. Minson had 6 and gave us nothing around the ground for the second week in a row. Teams are starting to exploit his lack of ability once the ball's been bounced. The generic hit out stat is the most useless in all of football.

[Greystache]

1. Our midsized forwards are one effort players that pay on their terms, I'd hoped it would change. It hasn't

2. Jones showed something to really build on

3. Picken should tag or play forward, he's a liability anywhere else.

[westdog54]

Maric had 8 hitouts to advantage and several that directly resulted in goals. Minson had 6 and gave us nothing around the ground for the second week in a row. Teams are starting to exploit his lack of ability once the ball's been bounced. The generic hit out stat is the most useless in all of football.

Answered it better than I ever could have.

[LostDoggy]

1. Richmond really is just on the other side of the street from Collingwood. Fans were atrocious. But if we hadnt won 3 in a row in nearly 20 years, I guess I would be too.
2. We're not as good as we thought we would be.
3. We're not as bad as we thought we would be.

[bulldogtragic]

1. Campbell is not up to it. Don't know what the coaches see.

2. Picken is a liability as a defender. Should be a FT tagger.

3. I hope we can convince a team that Higgins is worth a high draft pick ( but he isn't helping his value) ..... Maybe we can package him and Grant together for a decent pick from GWS or GC. Or I can dream anyway....

[EasternWest]

Maric had 8 hitouts to advantage and several that directly resulted in goals. Minson had 6 and gave us nothing around the ground for the second week in a row. Teams are starting to exploit his lack of ability once the ball's been bounced. The generic hit out stat is the most useless in all of football.

Can't believe anyone would question the fact that Minson was soundly beaten around the ground today. Saying he had more hitoutsas a defense of the argument is so awfully flawed.

[Greystache]

Can't believe anyone would question the fact that Minson was soundly beaten around the ground today. Saying he had more hitoutsas a defense of the argument is so awfully flawed.

He has to be terrible for some posters to even leave him out of their best players. He and his impact on games is very overrated by a lot our supporters. Outside of our club his isn't highly rated and neither is he by our coaching staff judging by best and fairest results.

[LostDoggy]

1. If we keep playing Higgins and Gia in the same forward line we will struggle.

2. Roughy is going to be an All-Australian full back one day.

3. Griffen could very well be the next skipper.

[Happy Days]

1. Jones needs to have the ball kicked to him more

2. We go to shit under any pressure and don't seem interested in returning the favour, particularly around the half forward line

3. Dickson is still 48 goals away from the 50 that was banded around

[LostDoggy]

1 - Cordy is miles ahead of Campbell and is our genuine no 2 ruck / resting forward (and this thought does not thrill me)

2 - I guess I knew, but had it confirmed - Higgins, Dickson and Gia in the fwd line is a very slow non competitive unit that will be carved a new one by good defences (this thought can be rectified with the introduction of youth - yes Stringer and Macrae and even Grant - at least Grant is quick)

3 - That Tom Young is not a bad player.

[Happy Days]

Maric had 8 hitouts to advantage and several that directly resulted in goals. Minson had 6 and gave us nothing around the ground for the second week in a row. Teams are starting to exploit his lack of ability once the ball's been bounced. The generic hit out stat is the most useless in all of football.


1. Our midsized forwards are one effort players that pay on their terms, I'd hoped it would change. It hasn't

2. Jones showed something to really build on

3. Picken should tag or play forward, he's a liability anywhere else.

This guy gets it

[westdog54]

3 - That Tom Young is not a bad player.

Its taken you 3 games?

Harsh;)

[bornadog]

Maric had 8 hitouts to advantage and several that directly resulted in goals. Minson had 6 and gave us nothing around the ground for the second week in a row. Teams are starting to exploit his lack of ability once the ball's been bounced. The generic hit out stat is the most useless in all of football.

So two extra to advantage that is a really thrashing by Maric:rolleyes:

[LostDoggy]

Its taken you 3 games?

Harsh;)

Honestly first game I've managed to get to live...like his overhead work, seems reasonable pace, and not a bad user :)

[Greystache]

So two extra to advantage that is a really thrashing by Maric:rolleyes:

Is it really that hard to understand? :rolleyes:

Minson was easily beaten around the ground again. Your defence was at least he won the hit outs when in actual fact he lost that part of the contest too. The generic hit out stat is pointless as an indication of how well a ruckman has played. I can't possibly simplify this any further.

[Ghost Dog]

Is it really that hard to understand? :rolleyes:

Minson was easily beaten around the ground again. Your defence was at least he won the hit outs when in actual fact he lost that part of the contest too. The generic hit out stat is pointless as an indication of how well a ruckman has played. I can't possibly simplify this any further.

The easiest way to explain it - Aaron Sandilands. For so long dominated the ruck for very little reward at Freo

[bornadog]

Is it really that hard to understand? :rolleyes:

Minson was easily beaten around the ground again. Your defence was at least he won the hit outs when in actual fact he lost that part of the contest too. The generic hit out stat is pointless as an indication of how well a ruckman has played. I can't possibly simplify this any further.

I was responding to the post that Maric took Minson to the cleaners, which is simply not true. Hitouts is still an important stat for a ruckman and yes they have to do more around the ground. Not sure why you say the words again? If you are referring to last week then you are off the mark.

[Greystache]

I was responding to the post that Maric took Minson to the cleaners, which is simply not true. Hitouts is still an important stat for a ruckman and yes they have to do more around the ground. Not sure why you say the words again? If you are referring to last week then you are off the mark.

He was absoloutely taken to the cleaners today by Maric. Killed around the ground and beaten in the ruck. Just as he was beaten around the ground last week.

If simply getting a hand on the ball as one of the two players who can contest a ball up is enough for you then I guess we have vastly different expectations on what a ruckman should accomplish. He has taken a total of 2 marks in the past 2 games, that is beyond poor.

He wasn't in the clubs best ten players last season according to the coaches and I wouldn't have him in the top ten again based on his efforts this season.

[SlimPickens]

I was responding to the post that Maric took Minson to the cleaners, which is simply not.

Actually it is BAD. Minson was destroyed by Maric. To me Minsons lack of work rate compared to Maric really cost him, you've offered a hitout stat to back your argument which really showed us nothing.

Maric had 18 touches to Minsons 11. Maric had 9 marks to Minsons 1. Maric had 6 clearances to Minsons 3.

Minson was comprehensibly beaten around the ground by Maric, hitouts really show us nothing of the whole picture.

[westbulldog]

An injury free Adam Cooney is back to his best.
Liam Jones can kick straight.
Our forward line needs an injection of pace.

[Topdog]

Our best is decent but our worst is horrible.
Too one paced all over the ground.
Not good enough at holding tackles.

[LostDoggy]

1. Liam Jones needs support. Stringer will compliment him.
2. Brisbane game gave us a false dawn. They simply didn't turn up.
3. Anyone who didn't watch the Williamstown game - get your hands on it for positives :-)

[Sedat]

I was responding to the post that Maric took Minson to the cleaners, which is simply not true.
I thought Maric torched him around the ground, and I thought Jonathan Griffin did likewise last week. I'm a big fan of Will's but he needs to impact around the ground more - last year showed he is very capable of doing so.

[Bulldog4life]

Cordy is a much better option than Campbell as a forward.

We are not as good as I thought.

We need speed badly.

[ratsmac]

1. Richmond are a pretty good football team.
2. We are not a good football team.
3. Gia and Higgins are a defenders delight. Bruise free football that is like taking candy from a baby.

[Ghost Dog]

What the coach learned

1. We are slow decision makers
2. We don't put enough pressure on the opposition
3. Shaving isn't such a hassle after all.

[Hotdog60]

What the coach learned

1. We are slow decision makers
2. We don't put enough pressure on the opposition
3. Shaving isn't such a hassle after all.

We did better with the beard on.

[Ghost Dog]

We did better with the beard on.

Bring it back you reckon HD? :)

[G-Mo77]

1. The 2012 season is still visible in the rear view mirror.
2. We have got some great 1 on 1 defenders in the back half.
3. I still hate Richmond fans.

[Mofra]

I thought Maric torched him around the ground, and I thought Jonathan Griffin did likewise last week. I'm a big fan of Will's but he needs to impact around the ground more - last year showed he is very capable of doing so.
He has struggled for aerial prescence which is not something he struddled with last year.

Ruckman's duties are not just stats based though - there is a "human shield" element to creating space for midfielders to use. Minson is still performing in this area.

[SlimPickens]

1.Liam Jones needs help. He lead the way in forward defensive efforts, competed well in the air and converted. Someone else needs to stand up.

2. We have players who too often refuse to set up our structures and lead when it gets tough. We let Richmond set up and play the way they wanted to. I'm inparticular filthy on our half forwards and mids.

3.Our back 6 should be applauded for yesterday's effort, they were the difference between a 11 goal loss and a 20 goal loss.

[Ozza]

I was responding to the post that Maric took Minson to the cleaners, which is simply not true. Hitouts is still an important stat for a ruckman and yes they have to do more around the ground. Not sure why you say the words again? If you are referring to last week then you are off the mark.

But it is true. Watching the game - Maric convincingly beat Minson. He was able to get easy marks around the ground by being more mobile than Will. And whilst Minson got first hand on the ball in the middle a bit - he wasn't able to palm it to our advantage very often. Maric also used the ball well when he had it.

I think Minson is a very important part of our side - and as a result - when he gets beaten, it has an impact on our chances.

[bornadog]

But it is true. Watching the game - Maric convincingly beat Minson. He was able to get easy marks around the ground by being more mobile than Will. And whilst Minson got first hand on the ball in the middle a bit - he wasn't able to palm it to our advantage very often. Maric also used the ball well when he had it.

I think Minson is a very important part of our side - and as a result - when he gets beaten, it has an impact on our chances.

Never said Maric didn't win overall, all I said was the word Cleaners is a bit harsh considering he didn't beat Minson in every aspect of the game.

Anyway all academic now.

[Throughandthrough]

1. In the last 2 weeks, I havent seen any improvement to make me excited
2. We will get smashed by the Crows
3. Other team's "young guns" are better than ours

[westdog54]

Fourth thing I've learned this week:

Its bloody tough to run when you've got a bloody stress fracture in your foot.

Don't I feel like a right a-hole now...

[EasternWest]

Fourth thing I've learned this week:

Its bloody tough to run when you've got a bloody stress fracture in your foot.

Don't I feel like a right a-hole now...

I don't. He hasn't had that stress fracture for two years.

[westdog54]

I don't. He hasn't had that stress fracture for two years.

Well, he has it again, doesn't he.

[comrade]

Well, he has it again, doesn't he.

I think he means that Higgins hasn't been much of a chaser for 2 years.

[EasternWest]

I think he means that Higgins hasn't been much of a chaser for 2 years.

Yup.

Don't get me wrong, I take zero joy in this news, but injury aside, I think we've seen the best Higgins has to offer, and it's not good enough for his status/pay bracket etc.

[Bulldog Joe]

Maric had 8 hitouts to advantage and several that directly resulted in goals. Minson had 6 and gave us nothing around the ground for the second week in a row. Teams are starting to exploit his lack of ability once the ball's been bounced. The generic hit out stat is the most useless in all of football.

I have mostly resisted the temptation to comment on Minson over the past year or so as I know that most are aware that I have been pro- Minson for some time.

However, I cannot allow this one to pass.

Not sure where you have the hitouts to advantage stat from, but according to the Herald Sun the hit out stats are
Maric 16 (50% to advantage) = the 8 you quote.
Minson 32 (34% to advantage) This would make it 11 for Will. Significantly more than your quoted 6.

Despite Maric gaining more possession around the ground, he had an involvement in 9 of the 35 separate scores posted by his team.

Minson had a score involvement of 5 out of 18. That is at least comparable. He also finished ahead on the tackle and pressure side of the stats

The additional point is that Maric was also assisted by the Richmond dominance allowing him to work into space while Minson was under the increased pressure of no assistance from his midfield, who struggled to take clean possession of many balls he gave them more than the best chance for.

While Maric was the better player on the day. It was hardly a smashing. At the game I felt that Minson did start poorly but he was right on top of Maric at the ruck contest in the later stages of the game.

[w3design]

While the last 2 weeks have not been Minno's best games, he is still far and way our best rucking option.
Cordy is a second ruck, and years away even there. Campbell, while showing some potential will not be ready for first ruck duties for at least 3 years.
If he gets to take over from Minno on merit, it will be 2015-6 at best, injuries aside.

[LostDoggy]

The one thing I learned is that after a very positive round 1, many supporters reevaluated their expectations.
This was always going to be a development year where we win 4-6 games, but we wanted improvement.
2 out of 3 games we have seen it and even Sundays game was Jones best ever. Plus the fact Higgins and Wood weren't fit to play, in hindsight, Campbell was not ready and Dickson may have went off late but he was in pain most of the day. The tigers are two years ahead of us at this stage and with four players down we were thumped.

Lets have some patience, no need to rush kids in that aren't ready, no need to drop Minson or some of the other crazy talk. Injuries themselves will give guys opportunities. We have tough games ahead and really we can't bank too many wins this year when you look at our sides development level. Lets not get all doom and gloom after an encouraging start, it's going to get harder for a little while yet...

[Greystache]

I have mostly resisted the temptation to comment on Minson over the past year or so as I know that most are aware that I have been pro- Minson for some time.

However, I cannot allow this one to pass.

Not sure where you have the hitouts to advantage stat from, but according to the Herald Sun the hit out stats are
Maric 16 (50% to advantage) = the 8 you quote.
Minson 32 (34% to advantage) This would make it 11 for Will. Significantly more than your quoted 6.

Despite Maric gaining more possession around the ground, he had an involvement in 9 of the 35 separate scores posted by his team.

Minson had a score involvement of 5 out of 18. That is at least comparable. He also finished ahead on the tackle and pressure side of the stats

The additional point is that Maric was also assisted by the Richmond dominance allowing him to work into space while Minson was under the increased pressure of no assistance from his midfield, who struggled to take clean possession of many balls he gave them more than the best chance for.

While Maric was the better player on the day. It was hardly a smashing. At the game I felt that Minson did start poorly but he was right on top of Maric at the ruck contest in the later stages of the game.

Fox Sports put the stats up late in the 4th quarter, so unless Minson got 5 hitouts to advantage in the last couple of minutes of junk time there's a disconnect somewhere.

I've also said numerous times that a ruckman has to offer something more than just getting a hand on the ball at the ball up. If they didn't Mark Blake would be a 300 game player. Minson has taken 2 marks in total in the past 2 games, that's not just struggling around the ground, that's offering the team virtually nothing as a tall option.

[Bulldog Joe]

Fox Sports put the stats up late in the 4th quarter, so unless Minson got 5 hitouts to advantage in the last couple of minutes of junk time there's a disconnect somewhere.

I've also said numerous times that a ruckman has to offer something more than just getting a hand on the ball at the ball up. If they didn't Mark Blake would be a 300 game player. Minson has taken 2 marks in total in the past 2 games, that's not just struggling around the ground, that's offering the team virtually nothing as a tall option.

Marking has never been his strong suit, but on that assessment we have not had a decent ruckman since Darcy.

Minson does provide much more than just a hand on the ball. He does regularly win clearances and he also provides a physical presence. Despite Maric getting more possession, Will was certainly one of our better players on the day.

[always right]

Marking has never been his strong suit, but on that assessment we have not had a decent ruckman since Darcy.

Minson does provide much more than just a hand on the ball. He does regularly win clearances and he also provides a physical presence. Despite Maric getting more possession, Will was certainly one of our better players on the day.

Your a Big Will lover Joe...as I am, but being one of our better players on Sunday is not saying much. Reality is Will has had an excellent start to the season but had his colours lowered convincingly on Sunday. He'll bounce back.

[bornadog]

Your a Big Will lover Joe...as I am, but being one of our better players on Sunday is not saying much. Reality is Will has had an excellent start to the season but had his colours lowered convincingly on Sunday. He'll bounce back.

Who had a good day on Sunday? Griffen ineffective (can't do it on his own), Cooney some flashes, but only had the ball 16 times, Cross his usual gutsy performance but no influence, only Jones took his opportunities which were rare.

[Happy Days]

Who had a good day on Sunday? Griffen ineffective (can't do it on his own), Cooney some flashes, but only had the ball 16 times, Cross his usual gutsy performance but no influence, only Jones took his opportunities which were rare.

Cooney was on Martin, Cooney was not good.

[G-Mo77]

Cooney was on Martin, Cooney was not good.

Martin spent a lot of time up forward and ran Goodes around quite a bit.

I thought Cooney was one of our most influential players on the day. I thought he had more influence than someone with 30+ possessions.

[whythelongface]

1. Jones will continue to develop and will play a crucial role for the club at CHF/ FF;

2. We need pace in the forward line to pressure the opposition defence. Way too much run from Freo and Richmond over the last couple of weeks;

3. We still have a long way to go to be able to compete consistently.

[F'scary]

1. We should have tagged Dildo but instead went for the Crotch.

[LostDoggy]

1. We should have tagged Dildo but instead went for the Crotch.

agree - couldn't fathom why Picken didn't get the job to start with given that he's had such a great record on him in the past. Lids must have been pumped that Picken was nowhere to be seen - in fact I don't think he had much company for the whole game. He probably has recurring dreams of Picken breaking his nose again.

I know you can't tag everyone but if ever there is a team that relies on its 3-4 guns it is Richmond.

[Mofra]

1. Stringer & Macrae will be stars. No "maybes" about it. I can't remember watching youngsters so closely and thinking they "just have it". Maybe when Bob Murphy started playing.

2. Jones will be worth the wait

3. Cordy is more valuable to the side than his output suggests

[bulldogtragic]

1. Stringer & Macrae will be stars. No "maybes" about it. I can't remember watching youngsters so closely and thinking they "just have it". Maybe when Bob Murphy started playing.

2. Jones will be worth the wait

3. Cordy is more valuable to the side than his output suggests
Three things all about KPFs. Never thought I'd see that...

[F'scary]

agree - couldn't fathom why Picken didn't get the job to start with given that he's had such a great record on him in the past. Lids must have been pumped that Picken was nowhere to be seen - in fact I don't think he had much company for the whole game. He probably has recurring dreams of Picken breaking his nose again.

I know you can't tag everyone but if ever there is a team that relies on its 3-4 guns it is Richmond.

Lids? oh, I thought it was Dildo. Sorry.

Yep you are 100% correct about Picken. We have to get him back into the midfield in his familiar role that he has excelled at. More generally, we have a few players who imo are best suited to being given a direct opponent, man-on-man, run-with and bounce-off role. They seem a bit lost if they are not tasked like this: Picken, Lower, Dahlhaus & Smith. Nothing wrong with playing all four on this basis. We want to be an accountable side.

[jeemak]

1 - Picken is our best tagger and should be played there, irrespective of Lower being in the side and tagging as well. If that means starting off the centre and following around the ground so be it. Our midfielders in Wallis, Liberatore and Griffen (because he's being tagged all the time) aren't at a stage where they can both accumulate and negate. Picken can't use the ball well out of defense, isn't a good decision maker with an entire field in front of him and in my opinion won't do much for the development of our forward line if he plays there. He has effort and courage in spades, but is a very limited footballer otherwise.

2 - Our lack or organisation from the half forward line, through the midfield and back to the defensive six isn't nearly advanced enough to be competitive against the reasonable and good teams, let alone the very good. We are a side in transition, which is going to be a theme for a while, and more experienced teams whilst fitter on the back of more preseasons together, will carve us up on the non-measurable aspects of the game (from the sidelines) such as communication and anticipation.

3 - Our forward line is in desperate need of a players like Stringer and Grant to come in, and supplement the efforts of Cordy and Jones through stretching the opposition's diversity of capable defenders of differing heights and attributes. Stringer is a strong and mobile beast, while Grant is a nimble and clever jumper. One has confidence, but is not ready to go yet, while the other lacks confidence and is on probably his last chance. By the end of the year we'll look a lot better with Stringer and Grant contributing up forward.

[F'scary]

1 - Picken is our best tagger and should be played there, irrespective of Lower being in the side and tagging as well. If that means starting off the centre and following around the ground so be it. Our midfielders in Wallis, Liberatore and Griffen (because he's being tagged all the time) aren't at a stage where they can both accumulate and negate. Picken can't use the ball well out of defense, isn't a good decision maker with an entire field in front of him and in my opinion won't do much for the development of our forward line if he plays there. He has effort and courage in spades, but is a very limited footballer otherwise..

Maybe, instead of Picken, Kobe Stevens could be tried in the backline?


3 - Our forward line is in desperate need of a players like Stringer and Grant to come in, and supplement the efforts of Cordy and Jones through stretching the opposition's diversity of capable defenders of differing heights and attributes. Stringer is a strong and mobile beast, while Grant is a nimble and clever jumper. One has confidence, but is not ready to go yet, while the other lacks confidence and is on probably his last chance. By the end of the year we'll look a lot better with Stringer and Grant contributing up forward.

This is good. Stringer - just play him in place of the injured (and a bit out of form) Dickson. And Grant has to be given another chance - in place of Higgins, this week.