Our forward line - chicken or egg?

[Dry Rot]

First, a damning stat: we are 17th in points for, less than GWS or Melbourne.

Today, we went almost 3 quarters without scoring a goal.

Our forward line has been pretty poor since 2011.

It's hard to judge from watching on TV, but is the problem our forward line and its set up or the delivery into it?

[Remi Moses]

Combination of both. Ball movement is dreadful, and if we do have a structure up front the players can't adhere to it. Just once I'd like to see seperation from a defender.very very frustrating for all

[bornadog]

To be fair to guys like Jones, Gia, Cordy, Dahl, ball movement into the forward line has been terrible. The Brisbane game was a whole different kettle of fish, but the last three games, and especially the last two, we have given our forwards no chance whatsoever.

The midfield should be hitting targets, not just slamming it on the foot. I watched Geelong on Friday night and their slick handball and running down the corridor was a delight to watch. Once they broke the forward pressure they had time to then spot someone up in the forward line.

[Ozza]

I watched Geelong on Friday night and their slick handball and running down the corridor was a delight to watch. Once they broke the forward pressure they had time to then spot someone up in the forward line.

And they've got Joel Selwood - so its like having an extra player on the ground!

[BornInDroopSt'54]

The system is breaking down because its such a hard thing to establish. Mick Malthouse's transformation of Collingwood is relevant. Their system took years to get going but eventually got them a premiership. Even ordinary players like Leigh Brown, a NQR at two other clubs, were transformed by the art or the Malthouse system.
When the moulding of our personnel to our system is developed it will work but until then the forwards may be the KPI of our lack of this development. But there will come a time when the development manifests and the team delivers the ball to the forwards effectively.
Alec Hyslop, lecturer in Philosophy of Aesthetics at La Trobe University, lectured on 'What is a work of art'? One thing he perhaps surprisingly claimed was that Australian Rules Football is a work of art. It is a work of art because it is a magnificent construct that is enacted like an opera or a play. It is ironically not what most fans experience when we are at the game. However it is the construct that make it a work of art and it is not easy to develop a construct as a work of art but BMac and the boys must, if our forwards are to get the ball delivered effectively. It will be a couple of years in the making, meanwhile it may appear ineffective, leaving the forwards lacking quality supply, for a period that will require true faith from our supporters.

[boydogs]

It's the forward line. You shouldn't need perfect delivery to make something of it - play infront, make a contest and bring the ball to ground. Everyone down there needs to be as vigorous with their attack on the ball and the man as Stringer & Dahlhaus are.

[G-Mo77]

It's the forward line. You shouldn't need perfect delivery to make something of it - play infront, make a contest and bring the ball to ground. Everyone down there needs to be as vigorous with their attack on the ball and the man as Stringer & Dahlhaus are.

I agree in some parts. The forward line becomes stagnant when things aren't going our way but usually that's because of our midfield's inability to spread from a contest and find space. Everything that comes from the midfield is under pressure and is very easy to defend against when it approaches the forward 50.

[Go_Dogs]

I agree in some parts. The forward line becomes stagnant when things aren't going our way but usually that's because of our midfield's inability to spread from a contest and find space. Everything that comes from the midfield is under pressure and is very easy to defend against when it approaches the forward 50.

I tend to agree with this. The last few weeks our spread hasn't seemed as sharp as it was against Brisbane. We have struggled to find a player by hand who has time to take a few steps and dispose by foot.

It'd be a nightmare for our forwards as they can't ever be certain when the ball is coming. Conditions certainly played a part on the weekend, but it's been a weakness for a while.

[LostDoggy]

Adelaide rolled our mids up again....and again....and again..... Our midfield endevour is clear but our skill level remains abysmal. When you compare smith, west etc and what they actually did with the ball in hand compared to the incumbents its just.... arrgg. Macrae will help - we need two more. If we get that area right I think there will be a future for Jones. Cordy needs to use gloves - no idea why nohing sticks to his hands. Stringer will also help as long as he stays forward but is 3 years away from maximum impact. That'll be fun. I would still take Aish over Boyd if we had that choice so I guess I lay the problem on the midfield.

[stefoid]

We scored 18 goals vs the Lions, so what changed?

[jazzadogs]

We scored 18 goals vs the Lions, so what changed?
The opposition have applied pressure to our ball carriers, and as a result disposal and decision making has suffered.

[KT31]

And they've got Joel Selwood - so its like having an extra player on the ground!

From a draft, from memory, we don't have one existing player left on our list.:eek:

[westdog54]

From a draft, from memory, we don't have one existing player left on our list.:eek:

A quick check of Wikipedia shows that you're right. None of Everitt, Stack, Hill, Lynch or O'Shea are with us.

[jeemak]

I think the best way to ensure you have a forward line that has clean opportunity is through having a defensive six that can capitalise on mediocre or poor disposal from the oppositions' midfield as it comes in, and transferring the ball quickly and with confidence forward.

That's obviously contingent on two things:

1 - Having a midfield that wins enough of its own ball to keep the opposition midfield honest and accountable. Having that same midfield apply defensive pressure (on the spread, at the stoppages, or pretty much at any time) at all times, to limit the clean ball the opposition can send forward.

2 - Having a forward six able to capitalise on the opportunities its presented with, once again, to keep defenders honest. Having a forward six with sufficient balance in goal scoring capability and defensive nous to limit the oppositions' ability to cleanly move the ball in transition once they gain possession.

When we were at our best, most recently in 2008-2010 we had a defensive six that was extremely organised, and a midfield that was able to win enough ball of its own to ensure they were considered dangerous by any opponent we faced. Where we fell down was our balance of talls, and smalls up forward (this might be simplistic however, all our medium and smaller forwards' defenders rarely had to leave them to stop a monster taking a grab as the third man up, hence, our secondary forwards were always manned up).

Thinking about goal scoring ability as solely a forward line issue is too limiting. The way the game is played now doesn't allow for such luxuries. We need to improve across all areas of the ground, particularly defense to enable ourselves to clear the ball quickly from opposition thrusts, giving ourselves breathing space to move the ball forward in transition.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Thinking about goal scoring ability as solely a forward line issue is too limiting. The way the game is played now doesn't allow for such luxuries. We need to improve across all areas of the ground, particularly defense to enable ourselves to clear the ball quickly from opposition thrusts, giving ourselves breathing space to move the ball forward in transition.

It's all about a system now. Defence is the best form of attack. Attack from every possession to a predetermined system. Geelong's system was copied from our's under Eade, fast controlled ball movement, our gift to the competition when Cooney was a jet. Collingwood's system was play the boundary line. Systems have a limited shelf life and need to be reinvented using basketball, soccer, rugby and war tactics. Next is alchemy.
Where are you Da Druid, missing you?

[Maddog37]

Our forward line is many things. Too tall, too small, too old, too slow etc etc

The one thing that really hurts us is the too slow part. Rebound from our forward line kills us every week.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

The system is breaking down because its such a hard thing to establish. Mick Malthouse's transformation of Collingwood is relevant. Their system took years to get going but eventually got them a premiership. Even ordinary players like Leigh Brown, a NQR at two other clubs, were transformed by the art or the Malthouse system.
When the moulding of our personnel to our system is developed it will work but until then the forwards may be the KPI of our lack of this development. But there will come a time when the development manifests and the team delivers the ball to the forwards effectively.
Alec Hyslop, lecturer in Philosophy of Aesthetics at La Trobe University, lectured on 'What is a work of art'? One thing he perhaps surprisingly claimed was that Australian Rules Football is a work of art. It is a work of art because it is a magnificent construct that is enacted like an opera or a play. It is ironically not what most fans experience when we are at the game. However it is the construct that make it a work of art and it is not easy to develop a construct as a work of art but BMac and the boys must, if our forwards are to get the ball delivered effectively. It will be a couple of years in the making, meanwhile it may appear ineffective, leaving the forwards lacking quality supply, for a period that will require true faith from our supporters.
Mick Malthouse took 11 years to land a premiership at Collingwood with all the resources that they bring to the table. We did extremely well to play in three prelim finals 2009-2011, but fell short because of a lack of depth particularly up forward. Our attack on statistics currently is rated the worst in the AFL. We look forward to the emergence of Stringer Roberts and Macrae but as you suggested it is going to take a lot of faith and belief. We will rise again but the additions of Gold Coast and GWS pushes our reliance on developing young talent tougher and longer to obtain. Free agency will also put clubs like the WB at a disadvantage.

[w3design]

For mine, we need a couple of players who know how and when to lead. We want a FF so we can leave Ayce in the FP. Then we need another FP who is small, Quick and can lead.
Then we should NEVER allow the opposition to have an extra defender. Every time they attempt to set up a two on one on our forwards we should send a player with him. Then if they try to go two on one, we have a loose man we can pass to sitting in the front 50.

Next we need to stop trying to squeeze 4 to 6 of our mids all into the rucking ring in the centre all at once.
For heaven's sake, no wonder we have difficulty getting the ball free, it becomes sport constipation.

[bornadog]

For mine, we need a couple of players who know how and when to lead. We want a FF so we can leave Ayce in the FP. Then we need another FP who is small, Quick and can lead.
Then we should NEVER allow the opposition to have an extra defender. Every time they attempt to set up a two on one on our forwards we should send a player with him. Then if they try to go two on one, we have a loose man we can pass to sitting in the front 50.

Next we need to stop trying to squeeze 4 to 6 of our mids all into the rucking ring in the centre all at once.
For heaven's sake, no wonder we have difficulty getting the ball free, it becomes sport constipation.

A couple of times last week, Hawthorn had eight in the forward line to match up with Freo who kept sending players down there to try and quell Buddy.

[Scorlibo]

TEAM - i50# - SCORES - CONVERSION

Geel - 62 - 30 - [48%]
Port - 60 - 33 - [55%]
Ess - 59 - 31 - [53%]
Haw - 59 - 30 - [51%]
Syd - 56 - 27 - [48%]
Rich - 56 - 31 - [55%]
StK - 55 - 26 - [47%]
Coll - 54 - 29 - [53%]
Frem - 53 - 25 - [47%]

Adel - 53 - 25 - [47%]
Carl - 53 - 28 - [53%]
North - 52 - 27 - [52%]
Bris - 52 - 24 - [46%]
GCS - 52 - 23 - [44%]
WCE - 47 - 30 - [64%]
WB - 45 - 20 - [44%]
GWS - 44 - 22 - [50%]
Melb - 42 - 19 - [45%]

So yes we have the worst score to inside 50 ratio in the AFL, but we are also pretty close to being the worst inside 50 team. If the inside 50 differential is 15 in the opposition's favour, and they convert that to scores at the same rate as we do (around 50%, say), then they receive 7-8 more scores than us and perhaps with a decent goal to behind ratio kick around 30 points more. If you flip it around, if we're beaten by 10% in converting inside 50s to scores, with the same inside 50 count (55, say), then we concede 5 to 6 more scores and around 20-25 more points. Add these together and we're down by 50+ points.

But then the average inside 50 count by players displayed here (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2013&rt=LA&st=I5) suggests that half forwards play as much of a role as good outside mids in actually getting the ball into the forward line. Scroll down to #13 in that list and lo and behold, Shaun Higgins. Next best for us is #67, Ryan Griffen.

[boydogs]

But then the average inside 50 count by players displayed here (http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2013&rt=LA&st=I5) suggests that half forwards play as much of a role as good outside mids in actually getting the ball into the forward line. Scroll down to #13 in that list and lo and behold, Shaun Higgins. Next best for us is #67, Ryan Griffen.

Gia, Dickson, Murphy & Higgins should be up there in that stat, yet they are all out of the side. Macrae & Tutt aren't marking targets, we need players to lead up at the ball to stop the half forward line trampoline effect and deliver inside 50. This increases the number of entries, and with quality disposal inside 50 the conversion percentage as well.

Looking for Stringer and Veszpremi to do that tonight.

[ReLoad]

Murphy would have helped a lot tonight vs the Cats. But in saying that he would have also got in the way of Jones who was clunking everything.

What we need to do is have Jones and Stringybean, with 2 crumbers, Dollhouse and a +1 the question is, who is that +1.

Forward line was good tonight, it always looks good with a very attacking Cooney hitting you laces out.

[boydogs]

Gia, Dickson, Murphy & Higgins should be up there in that stat, yet they are all out of the side. Macrae & Tutt aren't marking targets, we need players to lead up at the ball to stop the half forward line trampoline effect and deliver inside 50. This increases the number of entries, and with quality disposal inside 50 the conversion percentage as well.

Looking for Stringer and Veszpremi to do that tonight.

Vesz as a lead up player didn't work, Stringer was good and Jones was excellent.


What we need to do is have Jones and Stringybean, with 2 crumbers, Dollhouse and a +1 the question is, who is that +1.

Picken should be down there, but an outside mid such as Cooney or Macrae can fill that role as well. Even Smith worked well as a crumber in the second half

[Ghost Dog]

Vesz as a lead up player didn't work, Stringer was good and Jones was excellent.



Picken should be down there, but an outside mid such as Cooney or Macrae can fill that role as well. Even Smith worked well as a crumber in the second half

Didn't he! Could have easily had another to his name.

[boydogs]

Didn't he! Could have easily had another to his name.

He may need to spend a bit more time there, I still think we have too many inside mids in the team, add Griff and a full game from Macrae and it looks better but that means two of the current crew will be displaced

[jeemak]

Vesz as a lead up player didn't work, Stringer was good and Jones was excellent.

Picken should be down there, but an outside mid such as Cooney or Macrae can fill that role as well. Even Smith worked well as a crumber in the second half

Vesz needs another week in the side to show his worth. If he gets dropped on the back of one ordinary performance I'll be severely pissed off. It's really hard to come up a grade and play well immediately.

Picken showed his worth as a defender today. Aside from tagging, that's his go. We need to develop specialist forwards in our quest to build a premiership side, Picken won't be part of our forward structure.

[Ghost Dog]

He may need to spend a bit more time there, I still think we have too many inside mids in the team, add Griff and a full game from Macrae and it looks better but that means two of the current crew will be displaced

Twice he had a bigger player swinging off him as he stood up in the tackle. Personifies Bulldog.