Teaching/education vs match day

[Sedat]

I'm a firm believer that the two should not be mutually exclusive pursuits, but they seem to be at the moment. In 26 competitive matches thus far, BMac has really struggled to keep up with his opposition counterparts on game day. Conversely, his gift for repeated learning and education on the wider playing group is a noted strong suit of his and is almost universally acknowledged by successful clubs and players who have previously been under his wing.

With the above in mind, what can we do to shore up for latter so that the former can be more greatly enhanced during match days? I think the recently vacated footy ops role will be crucial in smoothing out discrepancy between the two. Welcome everyone else's thoughts.

[bornadog]

The one thing I mentioned last year was that we replaced a very experienced coach with a rookie and gave that rookie no help. We should have put into place an experienced senior assistant to be the right hand man and one that can advise on game day strategy and planning. I don't believe we have the right assistants and we can all see Macca is struggling with this side of the role.

I wrote this in another thread just before you put yours up. I really believe we need a senior coach/mentor for game day. Macca is on the right track with educating players, the type of game plan he wants executed ie contested footy but he is being killed on match day. Last week against Richmond, he made no moves and this week the only move was recognizing Dangerfield was too fast for Lower and putting Picken on him. Mind you, I rate Dangerfield as the best mid in the competition bar Ablett, so very difficult to stop him.

we have some good assistants to help Roughead, Jones etc but for mine there is no one there to help Macca on game day. What do we do? Lets quickly start looking and see who we can get to the club and quick.

[AndrewP6]

I agree they made a massive blue in not recognising his lack of game day ability. With that decision (to appoint) already done, obviously he needs help on game day. I honestly don't see them employing someone else, as that would be a tacit admission that they made the wrong choice in the first place (which I don't believe they'll own up to). It's a tricky situation they've got themselves in.

[Cyberdoggie]

Is the issue that he needs help or that it is his belief that the moves he is making (or not making) are for the long term benefit of the players through education and experience?

I'm not exactly sure what the right answer is, but i agree with you on some points. There have been times during games where i'm sure a match up isn't working, but Macca seems very reluctant to make any changes during a game.

There certainly is merit to not making changes as much as there is to making some.
Making too many can de-stabilize the team and bring about uncertainty. While making too few could be demoralizing and can also cost games.

Perhaps Macca needs to balance the two slightly more?

[Mantis]

One very disappointing thing to come out of our last 2 weeks has been our inability to change the way we 'set up' on the run... It 's been pretty obvious to all of this sites posters (and to the coaches judging on comments in mail-outs & press conferences) that our tactics haven't been working, but it seems we are loathe to or unable to do anything about it.

I'm not sure if it's part of the grand plan and we will become a more adaptable team over time, but it's been incredibly frustrating to watch us the last 2 weeks.... I guess I'm lucky I have watched us after the fact so I already knew it wasn't going to be pleasant.

[Ghost Dog]

We need a Rocket or a Bomber Thompson onside.

[AndrewP6]

We need a Rocket or a Bomber Thompson onside.

The powers-that-be decided that we don't!

[F'scary]

We need a Rocket or a Bomber Thompson onside.

Or a Leon Cameron?

[Greystache]

I hear the constant calls for an experienced assistant coach and the examples of Hird/Thompson, Buckley/Eade, Voss/Harvey, Neeld/Craig, but one thing seems to be missed among that.

All of those teams have either stagnated or gone backwards since that structure was introduced. Collingwood were a premiership winning team that had played in consecutive grand finals, last year they were little more than a top 4 also ran who got a consolation win against an interstate team (sounds familiar actually) and look little better this year. Brisbane and Melbourne haven't improved one iota despite a false early dawn for Brisbane. Essendon is debatable, but they made a final in 2009 under Knights which they lost convincingly and that's as far as Hird and Thompson have got them so far too.

McCartney may benefit from a more experienced assistant, but I wouldn't be using any of the current teams as a shining example of that approach working.

[bornadog]

I hear the constant calls for an experienced assistant coach and the examples of Hird/Thompson, Buckley/Eade, Voss/Harvey, Neeld/Craig, but one thing seems to be missed among that.

All of those teams have either stagnated or gone backwards since that structure was introduced. Collingwood were a premiership winning team that had played in consecutive grand finals, last year they were little more than a top 4 also ran who got a consolation win against an interstate team (sounds familiar actually) and look little better this year. Brisbane and Melbourne haven't improved one iota despite a false early dawn for Brisbane. Essendon is debatable, but they made a final in 2009 under Knights which they lost convincingly and that's as far as Hird and Thompson have got them so far too.

McCartney may benefit from a more experienced assistant, but I wouldn't be using any of the current teams as a shining example of that approach working.

What's your solution, because clearly the coach is struggling on match day?

[F'scary]

I'm going to toss a name into the matchday assistant hat:

Tony Liberatore.

[Twodogs]

I agree they made a massive blue in not recognising his lack of game day ability. With that decision (to appoint) already done, obviously he needs help on game day. I honestly don't see them employing someone else, as that would be a tacit admission that they made the wrong choice in the first place (which I don't believe they'll own up to). It's a tricky situation they've got themselves in.


I understand what you mean but havent the majority of the people who made that decision (Fantasia, Smorgon) departed the club? I dont see that adjusting the coaching set up would reflect badly on the people currently at the club.

[Greystache]

What's your solution, because clearly the coach is struggling on match day?

I think that an exerienced assistant is a false instant panacea. I've no idea what our match day objective is in relation to players gaining experience vs trying to win the individual position, but the reality is we are a team that will have 10-15 players with less than 50 games for the next year or two, and are getting limited impact from senior players to compensate for that. I don't think there is a solution other than suffer the pain that was inevitable after some short sighted decisions previously. Play the kids, look to bring in some capable experienced players along the way, and turn over the players that aren't up to it.

[bornadog]

I think that an exerienced assistant is a false instant panacea. I've no idea what our match day objective is in relation to players gaining experience vs trying to win the individual position, but the reality is we are a team that will have 10-15 players with less than 50 games for the next year or two, and are getting limited impact from senior players to compensate for that. I don't think there is a solution other than suffer the pain that was inevitable after some short sighted decisions previously. Play the kids, look to bring in some capable experienced players along the way, and turn over the players that aren't up to it.

Funny thing is Adelaide had less game experience in total than us and also had 11 players with less than 50 games and were in total (average) younger than us. Maybe we just don't have the cattle to be any good.

[DISHLICKERS]

I am concerned with match day coaching by Macca. Not sure if its my imagination but he never seems busy in the box, never seems to be on the phone etc.

It makes me think we may have a good educator, assistant, highly respected individual but not a coach who is a tactician and a thinker for 3hours game day.

[Greystache]

Funny thing is Adelaide had less game experience in total than us and also had 11 players with less than 50 games and were in total (average) younger than us. Maybe we just don't have the cattle to be any good.

It may well be that turns out to be the case.

Adelaide also got a massive amount from their more experienced players- Dangerfield BOG, Thompson, Walker having some impact when no one else did etc. Our experienced players like Cooney was good, Morris tried hard, Minson is just serviceable, Boyd his usual (leaving the debate aside whether that's good or not), but Gia was a liabilitty, Cross is a battler, Griffen had no influence, and Picken struggled again. We need this group to be our best payers every week and too often they're not.

[wimberga]

Is it possible that whilst we are in this rebuilding phase, a financial decision has been made to minimise the damage?

I was very much of the opinion when Rocket left that part of the reason he was going was because we knew it was going to be a tough couple of years and we couldnt justify paying the salary of someone like Rocket when we weren't going to be legitimately challenging for some time? In my opinion, someone like Macca who was untried and untested in the senior coaching role but very well respected as a developer of young footballers would cost considerably less than Rocket. This view was confirmed to me when we turned a profit the year after Rocket despite being absolutely terrible on field and down on memberships and attendances.

Therefore, IMO, I would not rule out that we wont bring in someone more senior when the time is right, either to help Macca or replace him, but I do sort of feel that from a financial standpoint, the club may think the reward just wouldn't be there right now for the extra $400k we might need to spend. It may be in 1-2 years though.

Is it possible the coach thinks like this?

[Cyberdoggie]

McCartney isn't someone who is in-experienced as a coach, only as a senior coach.
He's been in the game a fair while, not like Hird, Voss or Buckley who have pretty much come straight out of playing into a senior role (with the slight exception of Bucks).

McCartney is his own man, it's clear he knows the way he wants to do it. I don't see how having a mentor coach telling him how to do things in his ear would help at all. I think that sort of a role is meant for a Hird/Voss type of young coach who doesn't know the coaching caper/routine, the processes, and the inner sanctum working that aren't clearly evident to a player. Not so much to tell the coach, you should put that guy there, or make this move. If you wanted that then why don't you hire another coach?

Why get another coach to tell your coach how to coach?

[bornadog]

McCartney isn't someone who is in-experienced as a coach, only as a senior coach.
He's been in the game a fair while, not like Hird, Voss or Buckley who have pretty much come straight out of playing into a senior role (with the slight exception of Bucks).

McCartney is his own man, it's clear he knows the way he wants to do it. I don't see how having a mentor coach telling him how to do things in his ear would help at all. I think that sort of a role is meant for a Hird/Voss type of young coach who doesn't know the coaching caper/routine, the processes, and the inner sanctum working that aren't clearly evident to a player. Not so much to tell the coach, you should put that guy there, or make this move. If you wanted that then why don't you hire another coach?

Why get another coach to tell your coach how to coach?

Maybe not a mentor, but as a good senior assistant that can help on match day. I was always told as a manger of people, you are only as good as the people working for you.

[Mofra]

Maybe not a mentor, but as a good senior assistant that can help on match day. I was always told as a manger of people, you are only as good as the people working for you.
Do we know categorically that the current assistants aren't good?

Both B-Mac and Boyd acknowledge that the team didn't stick to the gameplan yesterday. Thw best gameplan in the world is useless if players don't execute it.

Unfortunately I don't see a short term solution. Sticking another voice in the coaches box is not likely to suddenly turn Cordy into a contested marking beast or get Stringer match-fit.

[Cyberdoggie]

Funny thing is Adelaide had less game experience in total than us and also had 11 players with less than 50 games and were in total (average) younger than us. Maybe we just don't have the cattle to be any good.

What happens to those stats when you take out Gia?

The big stat for us is how many players less than 50 games (kids), and how many between 50-150 (mid aged and reasonably experienced). It seems to be that the less you have in the kids category and the more in the mid aged category the better you are in general.

Here are the stats:

0-50 Adelaide 11, Dogs 16
50-150 Crows 8, Dogs 2
150+ Crows 3, Dogs 6

This tells me that we had lots of in-experienced kids, nothing in the middle and 6 old blokes, 1 barely got a touch and got subbed, and another got injured, played on and then went off.

[lemmon]

Maybe not a mentor, but as a good senior assistant that can help on match day. I was always told as a manger of people, you are only as good as the people working for you.

Completely agree, even Eade had a right hand man in Leon Cameron who's loss was seriously underrated at the team, you only had to hear the talk coming out of Hawthorn about how good he was to see what we were missing. None of our current assistants are talked about as future senior coaches and they aren't guys who go through the process with other clubs.

I would've loved to grab a guy like Brett Ratten when he was available but I do think we need another high profile assistant, someone with senior experience would be brilliant.

[Hotdog60]

We have a senior assistant at our disposal, be it not for all games.
Peter German, maybe he could spend more time in the box when not at Willy.
But I don't know how things would go in the relationship because Macca is not a young up and coming coach.

I think we need to ride the bumps and let things take it's course. See out this season and the third year we should expect results to start happening as most of the youngsters will have near 50 games up the plan should be falling into place.

[bulldogsthru&thru]

do we really think that McCartney doesn't have the strategic mind to fix the glaringly obvious issues?

Im not saying he is on the same level as Eade and Thompson strategically, but i see a lot of posts suggesting certain strategic changes we should be making and the fact McCartney hasn't made those changes suggests he isn't good enough. or isnt up to it.

Seriously?

The guy is a full-time coach and has been in the system for over a decade. He could not possibly have no idea on how to fix our forward issues or not notice how the opposition are exploiting our weaknesses, whilst us posters can figure it out from watching the game once a week. I refuse to believe this is the case as if it is it is not only a glaring incapability of the coach, but also our whole club and the selection committee, which included the great Chris Grant.

I do have similar questions as to why we aren't making certain changes but i have confidence in the process and am confident the club knows what they are doing. Dare i say if this is not the case we have much bigger issues than winning games

[bornadog]

do we really think that McCartney doesn't have the strategic mind to fix the glaringly obvious issues?

Im not saying he is on the same level as Eade and Thompson strategically, but i see a lot of posts suggesting certain strategic changes we should be making and the fact McCartney hasn't made those changes suggests he isn't good enough. or isnt up to it.

Seriously?

The guy is a full-time coach and has been in the system for over a decade. He could not possibly have no idea on how to fix our forward issues or not notice how the opposition are exploiting our weaknesses, whilst us posters can figure it out from watching the game once a week. I refuse to believe this is the case as if it is it is not only a glaring incapability of the coach, but also our whole club and the selection committee, which included the great Chris Grant.

I do have similar questions as to why we aren't making certain changes but i have confidence in the process and am confident the club knows what they are doing. Dare i say if this is not the case we have much bigger issues than winning games

What I and many posters don't understand is when Richmond are running riot and we make zero moves during the game.

[G-Mo77]

Both B-Mac and Boyd acknowledge that the team didn't stick to the gameplan yesterday. Thw best gameplan in the world is useless if players don't execute it.


That's it right there. Even under Eade when we had those lapses and were successful in the W/L column. The comments always seemed to be after a loss that players didn't listen to instructions or stick to the game plan. Maybe it's a throw away line from Eade and Macca but IMO I think it's a problem. Is there a "Me" first attitude out there when a player thinks he knows more than the coach? Maybe it's a culture that runs deeper? It just seems that some of our weaknesses that were there a few years ago are still there now and are worse than ever before.

[Maddog37]

What about someone like Leigh Tudor from the Swans?

[AndrewP6]

I understand what you mean but havent the majority of the people who made that decision (Fantasia, Smorgon) departed the club? I dont see that adjusting the coaching set up would reflect badly on the people currently at the club.

Yeah, fair point. Just don't see it happening.

[Ghost Dog]

do we really think that McCartney doesn't have the strategic mind to fix the glaringly obvious issues?

I do have similar questions as to why we aren't making certain changes but i have confidence in the process and am confident the club knows what they are doing. Dare i say if this is not the case we have much bigger issues than winning games

we all turn up to the footy to see a competition. We're getting smashed. By big margins. And I don't think we were as bad as all that on Sunday. If we could tweak a couple of positional changes, just to get a bit of reward for effort, why the hell not?
Goodes could easily do what Dickson does. Why not give a fringe player a crack as a forward ( Grant,? ) Sure, have the back 6 set, but for a 10-20 minute patch, it might be worth being a bit more creative next time. When you're 50 points down, what's to lose?

[anfo27]

do we really think that McCartney doesn't have the strategic mind to fix the glaringly obvious issues?

Im not saying he is on the same level as Eade and Thompson strategically, but i see a lot of posts suggesting certain strategic changes we should be making and the fact McCartney hasn't made those changes suggests he isn't good enough. or isnt up to it.

Seriously?

The guy is a full-time coach and has been in the system for over a decade. He could not possibly have no idea on how to fix our forward issues or not notice how the opposition are exploiting our weaknesses, whilst us posters can figure it out from watching the game once a week. I refuse to believe this is the case as if it is it is not only a glaring incapability of the coach, but also our whole club and the selection committee, which included the great Chris Grant.

I do have similar questions as to why we aren't making certain changes but i have confidence in the process and am confident the club knows what they are doing. Dare i say if this is not the case we have much bigger issues than winning games

Well said.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Anyone see the stats that Footy Confidential put up?

They compared Neeld/Melbourne to McCartney/Dogs and it was almost exactly the same.

[AndrewP6]

Anyone see the stats that Footy Confidential put up?

They compared Neeld/Melbourne to McCartney/Dogs and it was almost exactly the same.

Yep, it was depressing.

[G-Mo77]

Anyone see the stats that Footy Confidential put up?

They compared Neeld/Melbourne to McCartney/Dogs and it was almost exactly the same.

Did it really surprise you though? We were the worst team in the competition for most of last year, Melbourne just took the front foot because they're suppose to be well ahead of were they are right now. We are at the very start of a rebuild they're 5 years into it. If anything it just shows how poorly the Demons have been handled.

[LostDoggy]

do we really think that McCartney doesn't have the strategic mind to fix the glaringly obvious issues?

Im not saying he is on the same level as Eade and Thompson strategically, but i see a lot of posts suggesting certain strategic changes we should be making and the fact McCartney hasn't made those changes suggests he isn't good enough. or isnt up to it.

Seriously?

The guy is a full-time coach and has been in the system for over a decade. He could not possibly have no idea on how to fix our forward issues or not notice how the opposition are exploiting our weaknesses, whilst us posters can figure it out from watching the game once a week. I refuse to believe this is the case as if it is it is not only a glaring incapability of the coach, but also our whole club and the selection committee, which included the great Chris Grant.

I do have similar questions as to why we aren't making certain changes but i have confidence in the process and am confident the club knows what they are doing. Dare i say if this is not the case we have much bigger issues than winning games

I have to agree, there is a plan in place. The team is very inexperienced and need to adjust to their roles and those around them. Switching a few around isn't going to sneak a win from a ten goal hiding. I predicted us to bottom out the first part of this year and start getting it together later. This is only starting to become Maccas bulldogs.

[LostDoggy]

Well said.

Agree.

My only guess is McCartney is letting things stick, keeping it consistent to assist in the learning and development of the list (and yes this includes assessment).

McCartney is far to well regarded by very highly respected AFL industry figures to be as poor on matchday as many are suggesting. (And no I don't rate Neeld because I don't respect Malthouse's opinion, and yes I do respect C Ling, J Hird, M McVeigh, C Mooney, etc). The fact that a virtual recluse in Scarlett is working for BMac says amazing things about BMac in IMHO. As a consequence, Roughead's development has been amazing, and this alone is impressive - who else saw or predicted Roughead's successful move back??

And yes Neeld's record is very similar on paper. But Neeld has overseen the departure of Rivers and Moloney (quality players with a lot of good footy left), while McCartney has overseen the departure of Djerkurra, an almost over the hill Lake, a rabbit in Sherman...

Neeld has overseen a massive redcution in output of players who should be maintaining or improving (eg Davey, Trengove). Apart from Cordy and Grant being stagnant, I only see improvement in our players. On day 1 Neeld could well have lost his players when he openly bagged them after a Round 1 flogging last year. BMac appears to have the players respect and is consistent and positive.

Let the players learn, let them play, let them be assessed.

I believe it will be time to review his performance at the end of BMac's contract in 2014, based on:

Development of individuals
Overall list development
Competiveness


At the end of this I will be very surprised if the above aren't ticked off while Mark Neeld will be long gone.

We don't have the cattle. Our list fell over a cliff (and I remain frustrated at how obvious this was and yet nothing was done by Eade and club to address at the end of 2009, and I remain frustrated at our drafting - Howard and Tutt, Grant and Everitt have killed us). McCartney(s) are picking up the pieces. Some of BMac's strategies are interesting, he appears to be preferring endurance over speed, contested over outside. With a cap in rotations coming, and the continued emphasis on contested footy - his focus may well be prescient.

The matchday trickery will come when learning and development becomes less of a focus - I think. We will see.

[Mofra]

My only guess is McCartney is letting things stick, keeping it consistent to assist in the learning and development of the list (and yes this includes assessment).
Do people forget Eade's first year?
He rarely - if ever - made changes to the back 6 and hardly ever had someone behind the ball (7th defender). Why? he was teaching the defenders to work together, yes it got ugly at times but it was part of their development.
You can't tell me Lake, Morris, Hargrave & Gilbee didn't form a fantastic defnsive base to work from - they developed together.

Coaches work to a multi year strategy, and B-Mac seems tot be doing the same thing. It's easy to pot the coach during a rebuild, but whether he is successful or not wont be known until after the fact.

[KT31]

Funny thing is Adelaide had less game experience in total than us and also had 11 players with less than 50 games and were in total (average) younger than us. Maybe we just don't have the cattle to be any good.

Wasn't aware of this stat, it's a worry isn't it ?
Someone posted last week we were six players short of being a decent side.
With the decline of our older brigade and the mid aged players not looking up to it.
I am more inclined to put the number around the dozen mark.

[G-Mo77]

Wasn't aware of this stat, it's a worry isn't it ?
Someone posted last week we were six players short of being a decent side.
With the decline of our older brigade and the mid aged players not looking up to it.
I am more inclined to put the number around the dozen mark.

I agree. Our mid aged players were drafted when we were contending so they were lower picks and development was put on the backburner a little as vets were brought in. I don't have an issue with that FWIW. As you said it's something that stands out now.

Ward and Harbrow there would be nice and help even out the age brackets.

[Bulldog4life]

Did it really surprise you though? We were the worst team in the competition for most of last year, Melbourne just took the front foot because they're suppose to be well ahead of were they are right now. We are at the very start of a rebuild they're 5 years into it. If anything it just shows how poorly the Demons have been handled.

I agree. When we were playing finals regularly Melbourne were already into their re-building.

[The Pie Man]

We don't have the cattle. Our list fell over a cliff (and I remain frustrated at how obvious this was and yet nothing was done by Eade and club to address at the end of 2009, and I remain frustrated at our drafting - Howard and Tutt, Grant and Everitt have killed us). McCartney(s) are picking up the pieces. Some of BMac's strategies are interesting, he appears to be preferring endurance over speed, contested over outside. With a cap in rotations coming, and the continued emphasis on contested footy - his focus may well be prescient.

The matchday trickery will come when learning and development becomes less of a focus - I think. We will see.

While I share your frustration that a few around these drafts haven't come on, I don't blame Eade. If anything, he oversaw some regeneration in 2010 - despite the possible (likely**) misses of the 09 draft

* Grant was actually playing some decent footy in his first consistent run in the seniors (inc 6 goals v Essendon in round 22)
* Jordan Roughead debuted early in 2010 (shame about the shoulder)
* Jones was introduced late that year (shame he didn't play finals)
* Ward was into his 3rd year of senior footy and was BOG in the 2010 prelim at age 20
* Harbrow was one of our most important players in only his 4th year at the club - he was 22 at the time
* Picken was only in his 2nd year of senior footy at age 24
* Wood was into his 2nd year of senior footy and played all finals - 21 at the time

** Tutt may still make it - did play on the weekend at least.

Interestingly enough, we're in the same spot after 4 rounds as 2005. 1 win, 3 losses. Has looked an eerilie similar run over the first month as well. Current team lacking the calibre of Johnson/West/Smith though....can't see this team going on a 5 game winning streak late on, but who knows.

[Ghost Dog]

I have to agree, there is a plan in place. The team is very inexperienced and need to adjust to their roles and those around them. Switching a few around isn't going to sneak a win from a ten goal hiding. I predicted us to bottom out the first part of this year and start getting it together later. This is only starting to become Maccas bulldogs.

You don't know that. Lindsay Gillbee was swtiched to full forward for a while and kicked a bag.

[Greystache]

You don't know that. Lindsay Gillbee was swtiched to full forward for a while and kicked a bag.

?? :confused:

He played 3 games on a half forward flank in 2011, he kicked 6 against Richmond and didn't kick a goal in either of the other 2 games.

[Ghost Dog]

?? :confused:

He played 3 games on a half forward flank in 2011, he kicked 6 against Richmond and didn't kick a goal in either of the other 2 games.

exactly.

[Greystache]

exactly.

That was your point? :confused:

Andrejs Everitt played a good half in the ruck in 2009, so I take it you think that's proof he could be the next Dean Cox?

[MrMahatma]

I think it's intentional. He's using the game time to have the players learn what he's currently teaching them.

Rightly or wrongly, I think that is a priority for Brendan over and above winning.

[Ghost Dog]

That was your point? :confused:

Andrejs Everitt played a good half in the ruck in 2009, so I take it you think that's proof he could be the next Dean Cox?



If we are getting pantsed, and the boys have given up, 50 points down, what harm can it do to try and inject something by moving a senior player and giving them an opportunity on a single day?
Lindsay's move worked on that day. The same as Brian never really was a success as a forward, but on one day V Melbourne, he was the difference.

[Sedat]

Andrejs Everitt played a good half in the ruck in 2009, so I take it you think that's proof he could be the next Dean Cox?
The amount of positive PR he got that day made him out to be the second coming of Polly Farmer and very nearly netted us pick 12 from Carlton in the trade period a few weeks later. That would have been nice...