Our Loyalty

[wimberga]

Finey's Final Siren spoke at length last night about the dogs and where we are currently up to. He suggested we may have been too loyal to players we should have and whilst I didn't really hear him offer a solution or acknowledge it takes a little while to turn the list over, he did raise some interesting questions.

Why has Shaun Higgins been persisted with? He breaks down so often and we keep paying his wages but every time we come back we are continually underwhelmed with what he serves up.

Why has Tom Williams been persisted with? A bit the same as Shaun although he does show a little more when he is fit.

Why has Gia been maintained on the list?

Is there spots for both Cross & Boyd in our team? We obviously acknowledge how good these guys are off the field but really, do we need to get them to reinvent their games so that we can continue development of a young midfield and stop having such a bland and 1 dimensional midfield of tough on-ballers with poor footskills?

What do you think?

[LostDoggy]

I love Boydy but I'm not sure what he brings to the table now? We have other players who can amass pocessions and arguably use the ball better.

[bornadog]

The make up of Sundays team

less than 50 games - 15

50 to 100 - 2

100 -149 - 1 Minson

Over 150 - 4 Boyd, Cross, Cooney and Morris

Take out Boyd and Cross and what have you got left in experience?

WE are stuck with these blokes till the younger players get experience.

[Mofra]

In some respects, due to the age gap on our lists after the draft disasters of Clayton' penultimate years, we've had no choice but to keep some players who other clubs may have cut.

Higgins was flying during pre-season, no way we would have cut him.

Melbourne cut hard and went for a youth policy.
Don't buy into the "Baby Bomber" myth for a second - their 93 team was still mostly hardened veterans.

[Ozza]

In some respects, due to the age gap on our lists after the draft disasters of Clayton' penultimate years, we've had no choice but to keep some players who other clubs may have cut.

Higgins was flying during pre-season, no way we would have cut him.

Melbourne cut hard and went for a youth policy.
Don't buy into the "Baby Bomber" myth for a second - their 93 team was still mostly hardened veterans.

Agree with this. They showed a stat on AFL Game Day yesterday that said the so called 'Baby Bombers' average age was 26 and average games 86. Hardly 'baby' anything. They were older on avarage than the team Geelong sent out this weekend.

[azabob]

The make up of Sundays team

less than 50 games - 15

50 to 100 - 2

100 -149 - 1 Minson

Over 150 - 4 Boyd, Cross, Cooney and Morris

Take out Boyd and Cross and what have you got left in experience?

WE are stuck with these blokes till the younger players get experience.

We are stuck with them, but if they are letting us down on the field with structures etc, what value are they adding?

It certainly is a great topic to debate, but as we all have seen if you go down the Melbourne track of moving on all your experienced players doesn't necessarly work either.

[EasternWest]

Finey's Final Siren spoke at length last night about the dogs and where we are currently up to. He suggested we may have been too loyal to players we should have and whilst I didn't really hear him offer a solution or acknowledge it takes a little while to turn the list over, he did raise some interesting questions.

Why has Shaun Higgins been persisted with? He breaks down so often and we keep paying his wages but every time we come back we are continually underwhelmed with what he serves up.

Why has Tom Williams been persisted with? A bit the same as Shaun although he does show a little more when he is fit.

Why has Gia been maintained on the list?

Is there spots for both Cross & Boyd in our team? We obviously acknowledge how good these guys are off the field but really, do we need to get them to reinvent their games so that we can continue development of a young midfield and stop having such a bland and 1 dimensional midfield of tough on-ballers with poor footskills?

What do you think?

I heard that too. Mark Fine was surprisingly impassioned about it.

I agree with him FWIW, but we're unfortunately in the position where we can't clean house like that.

We can't get Smith playing as a permanent inside mid while Boyd is playing there. There's no doubt in my mind that Smith will become a beast when that happens. So we need to make some moves. Fine suggested Boyd play permanent forward, and the more I think about it, the more I actually like the idea. My thoughts otherwise are, harsh as some maybe:

Gia - retire immediately.
Cross - retire end of season.
Murphy - retained.
Morris - retained.
Higgins - trade/delist.
Williams - retained (tough one, there's probably no reason to keep except my desperate desire for him to make it).
Howard - trade/delist.
Veszpremi - delist.
Grant - plays seniors rest of the year, form decides fate. At this stage delist.
Addison - retained.
Tutt - plays seniors rest of year, form decides fate. I'm leaning towards retained.
Picken - retained. Has been playing well again after a gee ordinary weeks.

I know there's players I've missed, but those above are obvious quandary ones.

As an aside, so impressed have I been with Roughead that I would put him in the leadership group, and I'd have Smith not far behind.

[Scorlibo]

Why has Shaun Higgins been persisted with? He breaks down so often and we keep paying his wages but every time we come back we are continually underwhelmed with what he serves up.

Why has Tom Williams been persisted with? A bit the same as Shaun although he does show a little more when he is fit.

Why has Gia been maintained on the list?

Is there spots for both Cross & Boyd in our team? We obviously acknowledge how good these guys are off the field but really, do we need to get them to reinvent their games so that we can continue development of a young midfield and stop having such a bland and 1 dimensional midfield of tough on-ballers with poor footskills?

What do you think?

Some interesting questions wimberga, but I'm going to have to back the club on this one.

Higgins had most of the football world in raptures circa 2009, we would have been crazy to offload him even with the increasing interest from Hawthorn. Since then he's been decidedly uninspiring and often injured, but there's no doubt that his best sits him comfortably within any side's best 22.

Tom Williams will always be injured, it seems. But he's a good guy around the club with a bit of experience and can play, so he's worth a spot on the list.

Gia has been one of the best score-creators in the AFL for years and we need his leadership, as others have said we just don't have enough experience in the side.

Cross has good foot skills, he just can't kick for goal. Boyd is a different case, and I'd almost agree that he needs to reinvent himself a little bit. I'd love to see him played inside fifty as a smart leading and crumbing forward.

[bornadog]

Boyd is a different case, and I'd almost agree that he needs to reinvent himself a little bit. I'd love to see him played inside fifty as a smart leading and crumbing forward.

I would agree that next year this should be his role, but for now we need him the mid field.

[LostDoggy]

What are peoples thoughts on the back half?

Will Morris go on?

What is to be made of Markovic and Austin?

Where will Fletcher Roberts fit?

-------------------------

Roughead is still learning. Talia has only played a few games and is currently injured. For mine, Markovic and Austin have limited appeal at AFL level, but do one, or both, get delisted at the end of the year? If Morris doesn't go on we're severly short in experienced backs and those that can actually fill the role and take us forward.

[Mofra]

As an aside, so impressed have I been with Roughead that I would put him in the leadership group, and I'd have Smith not far behind.
Smith will have his down days this year, he's just too young not to have the dips this year.

His 2014 will be Libbaesque. Will be a beast.

[LostDoggy]

I heard that too. Mark Fine was surprisingly impassioned about it.

I agree with him FWIW, but we're unfortunately in the position where we can't clean house like that.

We can't get Smith playing as a permanent inside mid while Boyd is playing there. There's no doubt in my mind that Smith will become a beast when that happens. So we need to make some moves. Fine suggested Boyd play permanent forward, and the more I think about it, the more I actually like the idea. My thoughts otherwise are, harsh as some maybe:

Gia - retire immediately.
Cross - retire end of season.
Murphy - retained.
Morris - retained.
Higgins - trade/delist.
Williams - retained (tough one, there's probably no reason to keep except my desperate desire for him to make it).
Howard - trade/delist.
Veszpremi - delist.
Grant - plays seniors rest of the year, form decides fate. At this stage delist.
Addison - retained.
Tutt - plays seniors rest of year, form decides fate. I'm leaning towards retained.
Picken - retained. Has been playing well again after a gee ordinary weeks.

I know there's players I've missed, but those above are obvious quandary ones.

As an aside, so impressed have I been with Roughead that I would put him in the leadership group, and I'd have Smith not far behind.
Agree with this other then the retention of Addison. I don't see him bringing anything to the team and don't see him improving his game

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Agree with this other then the retention of Addison. I don't see him bringing anything to the team and don't see him improving his game

I couldn't disagree more.

Addison is not a star, but he'd play in most sides in the league. He's flexible in that he can play back or forward, with stints in the midfield. He's very hard at the ball/man and continually creates a contest, providing opportunities for more 'talented' players. He's proven to be an effective half forward who can hit the scoreboard and restrict the opposition's rebounder. His skills are pretty solid -- not the best, but certainly adequate.

Addison is firmly in our best 22, and would be in most side's best 22. As MJP said in another thread, every team needs a player like Addison. They aren't world beaters, they aren't recognised or remembered as crucial players, but they are important to the structure of a side.

[Bulldog4life]

I couldn't disagree more.

Addison is not a star, but he'd play in most sides in the league. He's flexible in that he can play back or forward, with stints in the midfield. He's very hard at the ball/man and continually creates a contest, providing opportunities for more 'talented' players. He's proven to be an effective half forward who can hit the scoreboard and restrict the opposition's rebounder. His skills are pretty solid -- not the best, but certainly adequate.

Addison is firmly in our best 22, and would be in most side's best 22. As MJP said in another thread, every team needs a player like Addison. They aren't world beaters, they aren't recognised or remembered as crucial players, but they are important to the structure of a side.

Agree TBB. Thought Addison was in our best players. Has improved since moving forward.

[bornadog]

What are peoples thoughts on the back half?

Will Morris go on?

What is to be made of Markovic and Austin?

Where will Fletcher Roberts fit?

-------------------------

Roughead is still learning. Talia has only played a few games and is currently injured. For mine, Markovic and Austin have limited appeal at AFL level, but do one, or both, get delisted at the end of the year? If Morris doesn't go on we're severly short in experienced backs and those that can actually fill the role and take us forward.

I think the backline is our biggest issue, particularly with CHB We have some potential with Talia maybe with Roberts but i would prefer Williams there if he can stay inury free.

Young and Austin arenot KPP. ROBERTS prefers to play forward, but will have to play where the coach believes is his best spot

[wimberga]

I couldn't disagree more.

Addison is not a star, but he'd play in most sides in the league. He's flexible in that he can play back or forward, with stints in the midfield. He's very hard at the ball/man and continually creates a contest, providing opportunities for more 'talented' players. He's proven to be an effective half forward who can hit the scoreboard and restrict the opposition's rebounder. His skills are pretty solid -- not the best, but certainly adequate.

Addison is firmly in our best 22, and would be in most side's best 22. As MJP said in another thread, every team needs a player like Addison. They aren't world beaters, they aren't recognised or remembered as crucial players, but they are important to the structure of a side.

I have always envisioned a Max Rooke type role for Addison in our front half

[Go_Dogs]

I think the backline is our biggest issue, particularly with CHB We have some potential with Talia maybe with Roberts but i would prefer Williams there if he can stay inury free.

Young and Austin arenot KPP. ROBERTS prefers to play forward, but will have to play where the coach believes is his best spot

Agree with this. I think we simply have to proceed with Roberts as a defender and hope a combination of Roughead, Talia and Roberts can become our long term key defenders. Young seems best suited to playing on mid sized players at this stage.


I have always envisioned a Max Rooke type role for Addison in our front half

Yep, he's a real bash and crash style player who can fill a similar role for us.

Really like your summation as usual TBB, Addison has become a relatively consistent performer for us now and I think he adds to our mix up front. He was OK in his first senior game on the weekend and expect him to improve over the coming weeks. The key for him is maintaining scoreboard pressure each week. He's a good lead up mark and shot at goal so he's a good chance to do so.

[josie]

I heard that too. Mark Fine was surprisingly impassioned about it.

I agree with him FWIW, but we're unfortunately in the position where we can't clean house like that.

We can't get Smith playing as a permanent inside mid while Boyd is playing there. There's no doubt in my mind that Smith will become a beast when that happens. So we need to make some moves. Fine suggested Boyd play permanent forward, and the more I think about it, the more I actually like the idea. My thoughts otherwise are, harsh as some maybe:

Gia - retire immediately.
Cross - retire end of season.
Murphy - retained.
Morris - retained.
Higgins - trade/delist.
Williams - retained (tough one, there's probably no reason to keep except my desperate desire for him to make it).
Howard - trade/delist.
Veszpremi - delist.
Grant - plays seniors rest of the year, form decides fate. At this stage delist.
Addison - retained.
Tutt - plays seniors rest of year, form decides fate. I'm leaning towards retained.
Picken - retained. Has been playing well again after a gee ordinary weeks.

I know there's players I've missed, but those above are obvious quandary ones.

As an aside, so impressed have I been with Roughead that I would put him in the leadership group, and I'd have Smith not far behind.

Dear Eastern West - Great summary. I pretty much agree.

Your thoughts on Markovic and Austin?

I think Austin ought to be given more games before making decision, as I think his confidence needs to be boosted rather than giving him only 1 or 2 games then giving him the flick - perhaps if he had taken that chest mark early in game yesterday he might have played better rest of game. Markovic tries so hard however I feel he is very wooden.

Perhaps until Talia and Roberts are ready we persevere with both or one of them?

[EasternWest]

Dear Eastern West - Great summary. I pretty much agree.

Your thoughts on Markovic and Austin?

I think Austin ought to be given more games before making decision, as I think his confidence needs to be boosted rather than giving him only 1 or 2 games then giving him the flick - perhaps if he had taken that chest mark early in game yesterday he might have played better rest of game. Markovic tries so hard however I feel he is very wooden.

Perhaps until Talia and Roberts are ready we persevere with both or one of them?

Hi Josie.

Usually I'd say that Markovic and Austin are my kinda guys -honest triers, but their status on our list doesn't really faze me either way. They're not the guys that are going to take us forward, but if we clear them out, we'll only replace them with middling players like themselves.

I think (I hope) you're right about Roberts and Talia. Once those young guys are pushing for regular selection, then we can afford to get rid of the other two. If it came down to choosing one, I'd prefer to keep Austin. I've got nothing against Markovic, but wooden is a pretty good description of him.

My list is more guys we've persisted with/held on to that are either costing us plenty of money for little reward, or fringe type guys that we need to find out about.

Of course I forgot to mention Cordy, who I would retain, if only to show that GVGjr's signature is an ultimate truism.

[LostDoggy]

Exactly my point on Addison. He is just crash and bash. No real skills and poor decision making. I don't think he would be listed in any team in the AFL other then ours and possibly Melbourne would take him.

And I don't see how he is a proven small forward. With 94 games and only 20 goals

[Dry Rot]

Boyd is a different case, and I'd almost agree that he needs to reinvent himself a little bit. I'd love to see him played inside fifty as a smart leading and crumbing forward.


I would agree that next year this should be his role, but for now we need him the mid field.

What has Boyd ever shown that he would be a good forward?

[EasternWest]

What has Boyd ever shown that he would be a good forward?

My take is that he's a penetrating kick, has good hands and is strong overhead. He'll contest in tight, and confined to the forward fifty he'll be able to focus on keeping the ball in. I like the idea plenty.

[KT31]

What has Boyd ever shown that he would be a good forward?

My take on it is Boyd is quality.
He will work harder than any player on the ground to get the ball.(except Crossy)
If he is in the forward line he may have six shots and it will end up with three goals.
It also means a team will have to make sure he is accountable and play a decent defender or tagger on him.

[Remi Moses]

I heard Mark Fine last night .
I Texted saying he was to harsh on Cross.
You can't just throw out guys who are the heartbeat of the side. ( like throwing out Hayes)
Having said that I think himself and Gia will go at seasons end.
Williams will stay ( think he's contracted) just don't think his body can take the rigours of the game.
Murphy will stay . I would have traded Higgins a few years back( he flatters to deceive)
As other posters pointed out , if you unload to many older players it can get worse.

[Dry Rot]

My take is that he's a penetrating kick, has good hands and is strong overhead. He'll contest in tight, and confined to the forward fifty he'll be able to focus on keeping the ball in. I like the idea plenty.


My take on it is Boyd is quality.
He will work harder than any player on the ground to get the ball.(except Crossy)
If he is in the forward line he may have six shots and it will end up with three goals.
It also means a team will have to make sure he is accountable and play a decent defender or tagger on him.

So he's not really a forward is he? He's a crap field kick so no good on the HF line, and I've seen little to suggest he has any forward's instincts.

I'd leave Smith there.

And Boyd to play a Ling role.

[LostDoggy]

I couldn't disagree more. We're trying to teach a new game plan, with a pack of kids, and Finey thinks we should offload our senior players? What a flog. It's ludicrous. Sure, when we're up and about again in a few years' time we can see these guys off, but to ditch them now would be negligence bordering on criminal.

Who's going to lead?

[wimberga]

I couldn't disagree more. We're trying to teach a new game plan, with a pack of kids, and Finey thinks we should offload our senior players? What a flog. It's ludicrous. Sure, when we're up and about again in a few years' time we can see these guys off, but to ditch them now would be negligence bordering on criminal.

Who's going to lead?

To be fair BAS, he was asking the questions about why we have retained Williams & Higgins for so long when they are injured so often. He also said that Gia should not be on the field and wanted to hear from doggies supporters who actually wanted Gia in our forward 50 this year.

But regarding Cross & Boyd, it was not that he was calling for their retirement or or for them to be traded, but more saying that for our development, do these guys need to reinvent themselves? We see Wallis starting sub quite a bit - can him and Clay Smith really develop into those inside mids when Cross and Boyd are in there?

To a point I agree with him in that perhaps sending Crossy to float across half back and giving Boyd a role as a forward may be worthwhile to enhance our development. However, the one thing I did not hear him acknowledge is that it takes time to turn a list around and with how deep we cut last year, there was no way Macca could have gone harder.

[Bulldog4life]

Exactly my point on Addison. He is just crash and bash. No real skills and poor decision making. I don't think he would be listed in any team in the AFL other then ours and possibly Melbourne would take him.

And I don't see how he is a proven small forward. With 94 games and only 20 goals

I have read your dislike of Addison in a number of threads Danstar. You quote that he isn't much of a small forward as he has only kicked 20 goals in 94 games. You have to remember that the majority of his 94 games he played in defence. Bit hard to kick goals from there. As a defensive forward I think he is doing a good job. There are a number of players we should get rid of before Addison.

[ReLoad]

I couldn't disagree more.

Addison is not a star, but he'd play in most sides in the league. He's flexible in that he can play back or forward, with stints in the midfield. He's very hard at the ball/man and continually creates a contest, providing opportunities for more 'talented' players. He's proven to be an effective half forward who can hit the scoreboard and restrict the opposition's rebounder. His skills are pretty solid -- not the best, but certainly adequate.

Addison is firmly in our best 22, and would be in most side's best 22. As MJP said in another thread, every team needs a player like Addison. They aren't world beaters, they aren't recognised or remembered as crucial players, but they are important to the structure of a side.

If Addison is in our best 22 then we have the worst list in the AFL.

Yes he is a hard nut
Yes he gives everything
Yes he has a big body.

As for being in most sides best 22, that is just silly.

yes most teams need contributors (not stars) as part of their team, but seriously you are talking about DFA.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

If Addison is in our best 22 then we have the worst list in the AFL.

Yes he is a hard nut
Yes he gives everything
Yes he has a big body.

As for being in most sides best 22, that is just silly.

yes most teams need contributors (not stars) as part of their team, but seriously you are talking about DFA.

You are overestimating the lists of the good sides.

Dylan would be on par with several players from some of the top sides. In fact, going back to our own period of 2008-2010, when fit Addison was regularly picked. Moreover, we had players like Tim Callan.

We weren't the only ones either. Half of St. Kilda's side in those years were average (McQualter, Eddy, Clarke), Hawks had battlers such as Murphy, Gilham and a few Indigenous boys I can't remember, Collingwood had the likes of McCaffer etc.

[LostDoggy]

I have read your dislike of Addison in a number of threads Danstar. You quote that he isn't much of a small forward as he has only kicked 20 goals in 94 games. You have to remember that the majority of his 94 games he played in defence. Bit hard to kick goals from there. As a defensive forward I think he is doing a good job. There are a number of players we should get rid of before Addison.

How many games to goals has he had in the FWD line?
Anyone have that stat?

[Cyberdoggie]

I think the backline is our biggest issue, particularly with CHB We have some potential with Talia maybe with Roberts but i would prefer Williams there if he can stay inury free.


Losing Hargrave, Gilbee, Lake, Murphy and Williams out of defence at the same time was my big worry for the year, even more so than our lack of forwards that can take a grab or provide a contest.

I've been very surprised with Roughead and Young considering their in-experience in those key roles. The WCE were always going to trouble us physically and match up wise, add to that our in-ability to stop teams hurting us through the middle on a turnover makes playing in defence a nightmare.

I agree that Young isn't a CHB in the old terms, he's a 3rd tall option. Problem is we don't have a second tall defender option. Talia isn't ready, Markovic and Austin aren't big, strong or fast enough. Williams is the only one on the list i would consider but apparently he's a forward now.

[Cyberdoggie]

I usually have a lot of time for Mark Fine but you can't just cut half your senior players like that. Yes we all know they aren't long for retirement but regardless of their waning form, without their experience we would be in all sorts. Unfortunately we just have to manage both by deminishing their roles gradually until the younger players step up.

I do agree however that we have a habit of idolizing individual players to the extent that it can affect the success of the team, but this is simply because we are underdogs and we basically have no success as a team. What else is their to look up to?

By trading Brian Lake i think we have taken a step in the right direction though. He still had good trade value and we picked up a ripper kid in Nathan Hrovat who will be playing long after Lake retires. In the past we would of never considered this or accepted it as supporters.

I think we've got some real quality in Prudden, Hrovat, Hunter, Stringer and Macrae. Probably one of the best drafts for the bulldogs ever. As much as it's frustrating we will just have to be patient while these kids start to get games and experience.

[LostDoggy]

This.

And the amount of thinking that is required to adhere to a multitude of structures for a multitude of situations is enormous. Youngsters go away from the structures, whether it be because of inexperience, lack of confidence against bigger bodies and more developed players, the routine is not embedded, the brain can't cope with so many instructions, or fatigue. But it's what you need your more experienced players for - to do it, to lead by example, to teach it, to reinforce it. You need senior players in the team to drive the game plan, most especially when the going gets tough and it looks like falling apart.

And because they didn't do this at the weekend, it's why the coach was so disappointed.

[Mantis]

By trading Brian Lake i think we have taken a step in the right direction though. He still had good trade value and we picked up a ripper kid in Nathan Hrovat who will be playing long after Lake retires. In the past we would of never considered this or accepted it as supporters.

We accepted the following:

1/ Trading Leon Cameron to Richmond for picks 37 & 66 - Which turned out to be Hahn & Hargrave.

2/ Trading Montgomery & Powell for Eagleton.

[G-Mo77]

By trading Brian Lake i think we have taken a step in the right direction though. He still had good trade value and we picked up a ripper kid in Nathan Hrovat who will be playing long after Lake retires. In the past we would of never considered this or accepted it as supporters.


I'm going to beat that dead horse again and say we just panicked with this trade. Trade or lose him for nothing was pretty much the mentality. We could have held firm and squeezed more out of the deal but it's done now and that horse should RIP.

FWIW I'm wrapped we got a guy like Hrovat and look forward to seeing Bwian fall on his face. Win/Win

[Twodogs]

We accepted the following:

1/ Trading Leon Cameron to Richmond for picks 37 & 66 - Which turned out to be Hahn & Hargrave.

2/ Trading Montgomery & Powell for Eagleton.



Jordan Macmahon for pick #19 which turned out to be Callan Ward.


CD has a point though. As a supporter group we do tend to idolise individuals over the the team.

[Greystache]

I'm going to beat that dead horse again and say we just panicked with this trade. Trade or lose him for nothing was pretty much the mentality. We could have held firm and squeezed more out of the deal but it's done now and that horse should RIP.

FWIW I'm wrapped we got a guy like Hrovat and look forward to seeing Bwian fall on his face. Win/Win

It seems to have been overlooked in the Fantasia bashing but obviously Hawthorn felt he got the best possible outcome from the negotiations, they offered him a job a couple of months later. You don't offer the Football Operations Manager role to someone you think you bent over in your most recent dealings with them.

[Sedat]

It seems to have been overlooked in the Fantasia bashing but obviously Hawthorn felt he got the best possible outcome from the negotiations, they offered him a job a couple of months later. You don't offer the Football Operations Manager role to someone you think you bent over in your most recent dealings with them.
He certainly got the best possible outcome from the negotiations from Hawthorn's perspective, who are coincidently now his employer.

[jeemak]

He certainly got the best possible outcome from the negotiations from Hawthorn's perspective, who are coincidently now his employer.

Are you suggesting there might have been some collusion?

[Sedat]

Are you suggesting there might have been some collusion?
Who would even know for sure - I certainly don't, but stranger things have happened in footy. Nobody will ever know if Fantasia was in discussions with Hawthorn for a number of months prior or not, but I personally wouldn't be holding up his negotiating prowess in the Lake trade as a beacon of excellence.

[Greystache]

He certainly got the best possible outcome from the negotiations from Hawthorn's perspective, who are coincidently now his employer.

Are you seriously suggesting he gave them a bargain as part of the negotiation so that in 5 months time when the AFL of Football Operations Manager unexpectedly stepped down and Hawthorn's Head of Football is seleted to take on the role that there will be a position guaranteed for him?

In all the Fantasia is the scapegoat/anti-Christ accusations that's the most far fetched one I've heard yet.

[Sedat]

Are you seriously suggesting he gave them a bargain as part of the negotiation so that in 5 months time when the AFL of Football Operations Manager unexpectedly stepped down and Hawthorn's Head of Football is seleted to take on the role that there will be a position guaranteed for him?

In all the Fantasia is the scapegoat/anti-Christ accusations that's the most far fetched one I've heard yet.
Not at all - just suggesting that it would be folly for anybody to use the Lake trade as some sort of high watermark in trade week negotiations. I'm sure Hawthorn didn't use this one isolated trade as part of their rational for hiring him a few months later.

Who would know if it happened or didn't happen? All that is known is that the Lake trade was lopsided in Hawthorn's favour and the bloke that conducted the negotiations on our behalf is now employed by Hawthorn. Might be coincidence, might not be.

[Greystache]

Not at all - just suggesting that it would be folly for anybody to use the Lake trade as some sort of high watermark in trade week negotiations. I'm sure Hawthorn didn't use this one isolated trade as part of their rational for hiring him a few months later.

Who would know if it happened or didn't happen? All that is known is that the Lake trade was lopsided in Hawthorn's favour and the bloke that conducted the negotiations on our behalf is now employed by Hawthorn. Might be coincidence, might not be.

The point is nobody is going to hire someone they think they bent over in their most recent dealings with them, it's a simple as that. The most recent experience of a person is the overiding view you have of them, Hawthorn obviously felt he got a good deal and they wanted him to represent them in future negotiations. You may not agree, but they were involved in the dealing and clearly they thought he did it well.

I also seriously doubt a club in as small an industry as AFL football would hire someone who they know was willing to corroborate with a club to the detriment of his current employer for his own personal gain. Again as far as conspiracy theories go this is as far fetched as they get.

[bornadog]

The point is nobody is going to hire someone they think they bent over in their most recent dealings with them, it's a simple as that. The most recent experience of a person is the overiding view you have of them, Hawthorn obviously felt he got a good deal and they wanted him to represent them in future negotiations. You may not agree, but they were involved in the dealing and clearly they thought he did it well.

I also seriously doubt a club in as small an industry as AFL football would hire someone who they know was willing to corroborate with a club to the detriment of his current employer for his own personal gain. Again as far as conspiracy theories go this is as far fetched as they get.

Whatever the story, glad he is out of our club as he made so many errors during that period and left us with lots of headaches now and lost opportunity. You can say others were involved in decisions but as far as I am concerned the buck stops with him for all football matters.

[Sedat]

The point is nobody is going to hire someone they think they bent over in their most recent dealings with them, it's a simple as that. The most recent experience of a person is the overiding view you have of them, Hawthorn obviously felt he got a good deal and they wanted him to represent them in future negotiations. You may not agree, but they were involved in the dealing and clearly they thought he did it well.
Is this the same Fantasia that was openly derided by Hawthorn after he demanded their first round pick for Josh Hill a couple of year's prior?? They must have short memories. So he went from industry laughing stock to world's best practice in the eyes of Hawthorn after a couple of years?? That assertion is every bit as far-fetched as any conspiracy theory on his departure.


I also seriously doubt a club in as small an industry as AFL football would hire someone who they know was willing to corroborate with a club to the detriment of his current employer for his own personal gain. Again as far as conspiracy theories go this is as far fetched as they get.
I think it's unlikely, but I never discount anything that might or might not happen in this unique industry, that is in many ways still an amateur hour boy's club.

[LongWait]

Whatever the story, glad he is out of our club as he made so many errors during that period and left us with lots of headaches now and lost opportunity. You can say others were involved in decisions but as far as I am concerned the buck stops with him for all football matters.

Yep. Fantasia was ultimately responsible for all football outcomes.

[bornadog]

Yep. Fantasia was ultimately responsible for all football outcomes.

Nice to have some agreement LW:)

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Not at all - just suggesting that it would be folly for anybody to use the Lake trade as some sort of high watermark in trade week negotiations. I'm sure Hawthorn didn't use this one isolated trade as part of their rational for hiring him a few months later.

Who would know if it happened or didn't happen? All that is known is that the Lake trade was lopsided in Hawthorn's favour and the bloke that conducted the negotiations on our behalf is now employed by Hawthorn. Might be coincidence, might not be.

I think you will find that the WB wasn't unhappy to let Lake go. He certainly hasn't set the house on fire at Hawthorn. The Hawks were interested in Lake two years before when he was playing well.Lake has been nothing to right home about given his performances in 2011/12 and may just prove to be a shadow of his previous best.

[bornadog]

I think you will find that the WB wasn't unhappy to let Lake go. He certainly hasn't set the house on fire at Hawthorn. The Hawks were interested in Lake two years before when he was playing well.Lake has been nothing to right home about given his performances in 2011/12 and may just prove to be a shadow of his previous best.

Has lost weight and looks in pretty good nick.

Its always a shame to lose club champions.

[azabob]

Has lost weight and looks in pretty good nick.

Its always a shame to lose club champions.

Agree BAD, Im still wondering why he is in better nick now, than for most of his time with us...

[bornadog]

Agree BAD, Im still wondering why he is in better nick now, than for most of his time with us...

He was injured the past two years and couldn't get his body right, and now he knows father time is catching up so he has put in a big effort to have that final fling at a premiership.

[AndrewP6]

Agree BAD, Im still wondering why he is in better nick now, than for most of his time with us...


He was injured the past two years and couldn't get his body right, and now he knows father time is catching up so he has put in a big effort to have that final fling at a premiership.

I read something on the AFL site ( I think), where it said Lake's weight loss was at the request of Clarko and the Dawks fitness staff, supposedly to keep up with the demands of the gme.

[LostDoggy]

Whatever the story, glad he is out of our club as he made so many errors during that period and left us with lots of headaches now and lost opportunity. You can say others were involved in decisions but as far as I am concerned the buck stops with him for all football matters.

Lake or Fantasia? :)

[The Pie Man]

I think you will find that the WB wasn't unhappy to let Lake go. He certainly hasn't set the house on fire at Hawthorn. The Hawks were interested in Lake two years before when he was playing well.Lake has been nothing to right home about given his performances in 2011/12 and may just prove to be a shadow of his previous best.

He's at least got the Hawthorn haircut (thanks Bob :D)

On a serious note, on limited exposure to date he's been fine - with Schoenmakers going down, he becomes so important to them.

[LostDoggy]

Mac knows what he is doing...it is a slow approach but will reap the ultimate rewards. Anyone who doubts me revisit this post in 2015. Andrew P76 and others bookmark this, I can't wait to see you eat some humble pie.

[AndrewP6]

Mac knows what he is doing...it is a slow approach but will reap the ultimate rewards. Anyone who doubts me revisit this post in 2015. Andrew P76 and others bookmark this, I can't wait to see you eat some humble pie.

Any need for a personal comment?

[LostDoggy]

I'm fine with Lake leaving. If he stayed, what could he do for us? Help us lose by 40 points instead of 60? Gives Roughead and the like a chance to play on some of the best forwards and develop (hopefully) a year or 2 ahead of schedule