Lloydy on Footy Classifieds last night

[PedroArvy]

Lloydy was on Footy Classifieds last night talking about the Doggies (for once). He had an interesting set of stats. We have won contested ball and clearances for most our games and yet our inside 50’s are pathetic as are our shots at goal. He then went through the long list of our regulars noting that other than Griffen and Dalhaus they looked pretty similar.

Maccer keeps going on and on about winning the ball and the stats show we are doing this. Lloydy suggested that the coach was short sighted and could not see that we needed to develop a strategy beyond merely winning the ball. This includes changing the player list to get more guys who can spread – presumably that means run forward once we win the ball to create some sort of forward movement.

I also note the dissatisfaction of Maccer with senior players over last week’s West Toast game. Was it a coincidence or are senior players getting sick of the same message for the same reasons as Lloyd states?

[wimberga]

Lloydy was on Footy Classifieds last night talking about the Doggies (for once). He had an interesting set of stats. We have won contested ball and clearances for most our games and yet our inside 50’s are pathetic as are our shots at goal. He then went through the long list of our regulars noting that other than Griffen and Dalhaus they looked pretty similar.

Maccer keeps going on and on about winning the ball and the stats show we are doing this. Lloydy suggested that the coach was short sighted and could not see that we needed to develop a strategy beyond merely winning the ball. This includes changing the player list to get more guys who can spread – presumably that means run forward once we win the ball to create some sort of forward movement.

I also note the dissatisfaction of Maccer with senior players over last week’s West Toast game. Was it a coincidence or are senior players getting sick of the same message for the same reasons as Lloyd states?

Good post Pedro. Saw this last night as well and I have thought for some time that Lloyd would be good value to get down to the club to express his views as he is a straight shooter.

The data he presented was pretty damning but confirmed what we all know: we can win the ball, our problem is what we do from there.

IMHO, I think that the best way to learn (and teach) things is to concentrate on one thing, overcompensate and really get that ingrained, before slowly edging off. IE: In golf, if you have a big slice, start by correcting with a big hook then ease back until you hit it straight. If you also have problems hitting long and your grip, you dont work on everything all at once, you focus on one thing, get it right, then move on to the next correction.

In some ways, I feel like with our young list, this is what Macca is doing. 12 months of get the hard ball really makes us a tough team. Now that we can do that convincingly, he can begin to address other areas such as our spread. Macca has publicly spoken about the hard ball and thats why it gets such a focus, but he is no fool and I still believe that he knows whats required for us to win games and our spread will improve over the next 12 months.

[F'scary]

In round 1 we looked like we knew what to do when we had it. But (and a pretty big but), we were not put under much pressure that day by a BL team that had severe, undiagnosed NAB Cup Premiership hangover syndrome. I think the issue is that we need to learn how to cope with pressure more. That fits in with the bad figures for our accuracy and turnover stats.

[jeemak]

I'd take notice if more than 30 seconds was allocated to the topic so the discussion could be covered with some balance. That's why shows like this one frustrate me so much.

Lloyd basically told us what we all already know. It's probably the least insightful thing he's said in a long time.

[bornadog]

I'd take notice if more than 30 seconds was allocated to the topic so the discussion could be covered with some balance. That's why shows like this one frustrate me so much.

Lloyd basically told us what we all already know. It's probably the least insightful thing he's said in a long time.

Yep, no solutions presented.

[PedroArvy]

The stat is very interesting if teams at our level are being conclusively beaten in all aspects of their game but we are loosing whilst winning contested ball consistently. That would be seriously weird. It smells of over concentration in one area although as said above it could be the coach's focus just for the moment.

I don't have access to all these stats, in fact where do they come from? I wish they were in a SQL database because as a programmer then I could query them.

[bornadog]

The stat is very interesting if teams at our level are being conclusively beaten in all aspects of their game but we are loosing whilst winning contested ball consistently. That would be seriously weird. It smells of over concentration in one area although as said above it could be the coach's focus just for the moment.

I don't have access to all these stats, in fact where do they come from? I wish they were in a SQL database because as a programmer then I could query them.

http://www.afl.com.au/stats

[jeemak]

The stat is very interesting if teams at our level are being conclusively beaten in all aspects of their game but we are loosing whilst winning contested ball consistently. That would be seriously weird. It smells of over concentration in one area although as said above it could be the coach's focus just for the moment.

I don't have access to all these stats, in fact where do they come from? I wish they were in a SQL database because as a programmer then I could query them.

It says to me that balanced playing lists take a long time to develop, and that certain non-negotiables can be present before an over-arching and more sophisticated strategy emerges.

I'm sure if we had the polish and pace on our list we'd be playing differently, but we don't. I get that we've topped up with players like Stevens and Lower, but we need to be mindful that we'll be losing Cross and Boyd over the next couple of years while other players listed by Lloyd will be replaced by developing talent over that time as well.

Bringing in quick and good users of the football as mature aged recruits is difficult, compared to bringing in midfielders like Lower and Stevens. They're rarely available at a reasonable price, so for the most part you have to do it through the draft.

[Remi Moses]

The Eagle anyone?

[Mofra]

The question is - do people think this is all B-Mac will develop, or si he establishing a style of play that will take years to develop?

It seems at the momen the is getting the basics right, and will move the focus to other areas of gameplay when the non-negotiables are established.

[Go_Dogs]

There are a number of things we need to improve on, but spread (both offensively and defensively) need to improve. I think one reason we looked good against Brisbane is the defensive spread, we were able to apply a lot of pressure to cause the turnover, which then meant we had numbers in good spots to receive and mount our attack.

Macrae, Hrovat and Hunter are all blokes who help in this area. Stevens is another.

I think we're aware of these areas of improvement but with the quality missing, combined with younger players still learning the ropes of positioning and when to run forward/back/cover the outlet we haven't quite nailed it yet.

[DragzLS1]

You have to win the ball before you can use it. He wants us to be the best at winning teh hard ball first, then he will work on how we use it from there on. It wont happen overnight, and certainly wont happen with such a young list very quickly, but I see glimpses from some of teh young guys taking teh next step.. Give it time and it will all come together.. Geelong are unbeaten because of this and still going strong, Macca knows whats needed and it will hopefully all come together in 2016! When Wallis has taken over from Boyd and Stringer / Jones are fighting it out for the coleman medal.

[The Pie Man]

The question is - do people think this is all B-Mac will develop, or si he establishing a style of play that will take years to develop?

It seems at the momen the is getting the basics right, and will move the focus to other areas of gameplay when the non-negotiables are established.

I can understand and accept this - though I haven't heard that communicated from the coaching group publicly though.....which suggests I've either a) missed it, b) they won't present it as that, or c)* the 'correct way' they do preach publicly doesn't amount to anything much after winning the ball.

* I don't seriously believe there isn't a plan post winning the pill - just not sure why we're not starting to focus on this more given we're consistently winning the contested stats, which would suggest the 'non-negotiables' are becoming unconscious competencies.

[Bulldog Joe]

I feel that we are making progress despite the recent heavy losses. We have had serious injury issues to our more senior players.

Winning the contest is the first issue, but Macca addressed a meeting I attended in March and talked about being smarter with the footy. A lot of what he talked about was on show against Brisbane.

Unfortunately the injury toll has taken away experience and the young guys have not been able to withstand the pressure.

The fact that we are doing well in the contested stats indicates we are closer to being truly competitive than teams like Melbourne, who are continually smashed at the contest.

If we get our best side on the park we will improve.

[Mantis]

I feel that we are making progress despite the recent heavy losses. We have had serious injury issues to our more senior players.

Winning the contest is the first issue, but Macca addressed a meeting I attended in March and talked about being smarter with the footy. A lot of what he talked about was on show against Brisbane.

The fact that Brisbane applied very little defensive pressure allowed us to play the game on our terms, others teams haven't been so kind.

While we are far from a finished product it is very frustrating watching us turn the ball over with ease.. especially after committing bodies to winning the damn thing!

I hope to see improvement in this area over the remaining rounds, especially from players who have been in the system for a number of years.

[Bulldog Joe]

The fact that Brisbane applied very little defensive pressure allowed us to play the game on our terms, others teams haven't been so kind.

While we are far from a finished product it is very frustrating watching us turn the ball over with ease.. especially after committing bodies to winning the damn thing!

I hope to see improvement in this area over the remaining rounds, especially from players who have been in the system for a number of years.

Agree totally Mantis.

However, the Brisbane game did show that we knew what to do with the ball.

The process is to be able to execute under pressure and we are not there as yet. We have a team full of apprentices and they won't all make it, but we need to endure the process of development before we can enjoy the spectacle of success.

[Eastdog]

Agree totally Mantis.

However, the Brisbane game did show that we knew what to do with the ball.

The process is to be able to execute under pressure and we are not there as yet. We have a team full of apprentices and they won't all make it, but we need to endure the process of development before we can enjoy the spectacle of success.

How long do you reckon until with the current group (which is still very young) we have until it starts to click.

[w3design]

This includes changing the player list to get more guys who can spread – presumably that means run forward once we win the ball to create some sort of forward movement.

Does Lloyd realise you can't just change a list over night?*





*unless you drug them up like Essendon

[bornadog]

The fact that Brisbane applied very little defensive pressure allowed us to play the game on our terms, others teams haven't been so kind.

While we are far from a finished product it is very frustrating watching us turn the ball over with ease.. especially after committing bodies to winning the damn thing!

I hope to see improvement in this area over the remaining rounds, especially from players who have been in the system for a number of years.

I watched some of the Essendon / GWS game on Foxtel and those young kids at GWS know how to kick. Once their bodies get stronger, Leon Cameron is going to have himself a team.

Our kicking is woeful, old players and new.

[Eastdog]

I watched some of the Essendon / GWS game on Foxtel and those young kids at GWS know how to kick. Once their bodies get stronger, Leon Cameron is going to have himself a team.

Our kicking is woeful, old players and new.

How do we address our kicking? Is it done in training or is it something that you just have.

[AndrewP6]

How do we address our kicking? Is it done in training or is it something that you just have.

needs to be done in training, and clearly isn't done enough.

[Eastdog]

needs to be done in training, and clearly isn't done enough.

Our skill level overall is just very poor. You would like to think the senior guys would lead by example to show the youngsters how's its done.

[chef]

How do we address our kicking? Is it done in training or is it something that you just have.

Draft guys who can kick, bit to late to teach them after they've been drafted most of the time.

[SlimPickens]

Our skill level overall is just very poor. You would like to think the senior guys would lead by example to show the youngsters how's its done.

Our most senior guy is one of the worst, if not the worst kick in the team!!

[Eastdog]

Draft guys who can kick, bit to late to teach them after they've been drafted that most of the time.

In other words it is not taught it is more inherent in players.

[Eastdog]

Our most senior guy is one of the worst, if not the worst kick in the team!!

Who has been our best you reckon in our senior group this year? Cross and Morris have been good.

[LostDoggy]

Having watched us structure up fairly closely the last few weeks, there's a few things I've noticed.

- Every single week we allow the opposition to have an extra defender. Our extra player goes hunting the ball (which I'm guessing is the directive from the coach)

- As a result we are winning the clearances and contested possession in majority of games. Also our insides 50's are always up there with the opposition despite losing by 10 goals.

- Majority of our inside 50's are as a result of winning the ball in the contest mainly due to extra numbers around the ball and our abundance of players who can win there own ball. Quick kick, seems to always be a quick kick not to our forwards advantage. Our delivery into forward 50 has been worse than last year if that's even possible. This just goes inside the 50, the spare player chops it off, or we create a contest but are outnumbered on the ground.

- Once the opposition wins the ball in our forward 50, the spread from the initial contest is absolutely killing us. Quick ball movement and our defenders are always 1 out with there opponents, due to our extra man being up in the initial contest.

I see what Macca is trying to do, work from the inside out. However our team simply is not quick enough/willing to work both ways hard enough/skilful enough and just plain not good enough for us to be competitive playing like this.



The amount of easy goals the opposition are getting is just ridiculous. We have the cattle in the middle of the ground to win our own fair share of ball. We don't need the extra man.

[mjp]

It says to me that balanced playing lists take a long time to develop, and that certain non-negotiables can be present before an over-arching and more sophisticated strategy emerges.

Bringing in quick and good users of the football as mature aged recruits is difficult, compared to bringing in midfielders like Lower and Stevens. They're rarely available at a reasonable price, so for the most part you have to do it through the draft.

Which is why when you already have Wallis and Liber you select Crozier over Smith. The Macrae selection was a step in the right direction...but he (and Tutt, and Cooney, and Griffen) all need to play in the same side.

Fwiw, I think we won the i50s vs west coast...not that it helped much.

[DOG GOD]

I agree with mjp. As good as Smith has been, I was shaking my head when we selected him, fully knowing we had "not quick" inside mids like wallis and libba. Crozier would've been an ideal selection. He has that run and silkiness we are looking for...a midfield of libba/wallis/crozier/McCrae would've been a step in the right direction. I'm not saying that having smith is a bad move..I like the way he plays, but when it was obvious we needed outside run and pace, we chose another inside mid without pace and an avge kick.

[anfo27]

The Eagle anyone?

Yeah I've been thinking the eagle in his prime would be a very handy player at the minute. A lot harder to replace than we all thought.

[Ghost Dog]

on the Run, that's how Geelong do it. They prefer in some ways that you get first possession, so they can make use of the space to run it back. I don't know what the answer is.

[jeemak]

Which is why when you already have Wallis and Liber you select Crozier over Smith. The Macrae selection was a step in the right direction...but he (and Tutt, and Cooney, and Griffen) all need to play in the same side.

Fwiw, I think we won the i50s vs west coast...not that it helped much.

Don't doubt Crozier would have made a suitable selection, considering our needs.

Though I'll also say with Boyd and Cross leaving most likely within two years there's certainly going to be room for all of Smith, Wallis and Liberatore in our 22. Insurance against injury and form/lack of development isn't a bad thing either.

[comrade]

Did Lloyd also confirm that the pope is catholic?

[stefoid]

ha ha comrade.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-contest-is-up-20130506-2j3p2.html

Its easier to score from turnovers than clearances because you are more likely to catch your opponents out of position.

Therefore causing turnovers - and not generating turnovers - is more important than winning clearances.

We are OK at causing turnovers with our improving defensive pressure but out ball-use is appalling under pressure.

We desperately need good ball users, preferably quick ones. Fortunately our 2013 draftess are all supposed to be good users of the ball. Cant get Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat, Hunter and Pruden cemented in the best 22 quick enough.

[DOG GOD]

How quick are hunter, prudden and Hrovat?

[Remi Moses]

Don't doubt Crozier would have made a suitable selection, considering our needs.

Though I'll also say with Boyd and Cross leaving most likely within two years there's certainly going to be room for all of Smith, Wallis and Liberatore in our 22. Insurance against injury and form/lack of development isn't a bad thing either.

I agree with this. I thought we'd go Crozier as well, but to be honest you need as many players to do the heavy lifting. Sydney as an example tend to have many heavy lifters, and don't be fooled by gamestyles currently it will get back to tight contested hard football when it counts.

[stefoid]

Hmm, yeah, But Clay is such wrecking ball with attitude. Id be loathe to swap him for Crozier now, given the option. I think he will end up better than Wallis.

[jeemak]

Hmm, yeah, But Clay is such wrecking ball with attitude. Id be loathe to swap him for Crozier now, given the option. I think he will end up better than Wallis.

They're clearly different players, and it will be interesting to see who turns out to be a better acquisition for the club.

At this stage it looks as if Clay has a bit more versatility in that he's shown himself to be an effective forward. Being a very strong lad has certainly helped him show an ability to affect different types of contests to this point.

[Scorlibo]

Hmm, yeah, But Clay is such wrecking ball with attitude. Id be loathe to swap him for Crozier now, given the option. I think he will end up better than Wallis.

Wallis is so far ahead of Smith in decision making a ball use though. Wallis doesn't have the same limitations that Smith has.

[wimberga]

ha ha comrade.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-contest-is-up-20130506-2j3p2.html

Its easier to score from turnovers than clearances because you are more likely to catch your opponents out of position.

Therefore causing turnovers - and not generating turnovers - is more important than winning clearances.

We are OK at causing turnovers with our improving defensive pressure but out ball-use is appalling under pressure.

We desperately need good ball users, preferably quick ones. Fortunately our 2013 draftess are all supposed to be good users of the ball. Cant get Stringer, Macrae, Hrovat, Hunter and Pruden cemented in the best 22 quick enough.

Your right Stefoid in that our disposal under pressure is poor. However, I really dont think this is completely a skill issue.

I really feel like our mids and forwards still dont know how to create space. You can be a crap kick and crap under pressure but if you have a player who has found space your kick can be made to look awesome. I'm not sure we run hard enough without the ball, offensively or defensively, but hope that will change with fitness, maturity and further tactical instruction.

[jeemak]

Wallis is so far ahead of Smith in decision making a ball use though. Wallis doesn't have the same limitations that Smith has.

I'd take Smith inside the forward 50 over Wallis right now though, and Wallis in the midfield.

Each has limitations to work through.

[Bulldog Joe]

How long do you reckon until with the current group (which is still very young) we have until it starts to click.

I am expecting that we will be showing a more competitive effort on a consistent basis towards the end of the season and definitely from next year.

[stefoid]

Wallis is so far ahead of Smith in decision making a ball use though. Wallis doesn't have the same limitations that Smith has.

I dont see it - Smith seems more effective to me.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Did Lloyd also confirm that the pope is catholic?

The pope's a jew.

[Mantis]

On AFL Insider last night they discussed how the game has changed over the past few years and it's now become an 'outside' game. What really stood out was that the top 4 teams at present are all in the bottom 5 for contested possessions, but their kicking efficiency and goals from turnovers are all up near the top.

I know we have focused on winning the contested ball at present, and are becoming quite good at it, but if the current trend continues it may not be a critical stat in footy anymore.

[comrade]

On AFL Insider last night they discussed how the game has changed over the past few years and it's now become an 'outside' game. What really stood out was that the top 4 teams at present are all in the bottom 5 for contested possessions, but their kicking efficiency and goals from turnovers are all up near the top.

I know we have focused on winning the contested ball at present, and are becoming quite good at it, but if the current trend continues it may not be a critical stat in footy anymore.

I'd like to see stats for September vs regular H/A games. My gut feeling is 'outside' football might be the new trend during the year but contested footy and clearances are still critical when it comes to winning finals.

Also, I think the AFL Insider guys would find that the top teams are always near the top every year for kicking efficiency and goals from turnovers. Kicking it well and forcing the other team to turn over the ball have always been key to winning football.

If we can continue to win the clearances and contested ball and add quality ball users to our midfield, I think we'll be in good shape. Drafting gun mids and half backs is still our number 1 priority over the next 2 years IMO.

[Greystache]

I'd like to see stats for September vs regular H/A games. My gut feeling is 'outside' football might be the new trend during the year but contested footy and clearances are still critical when it comes to winning finals.

Also, I think the AFL Insider guys would find that the top teams are always near the top every year for kicking efficiency and goals from turnovers. Kicking it well and forcing the other team to turn over the ball have always been key to winning football.

I was in the process of writing exactly the same thing. I'd be interested to know if this is early season filler citing a trend that's occurring now, or whether the last couple of finals series reflect this too. Free wheeling outside play has won plenty of H&A games over the years, but it nearly always falls apart under the pressure of finals against good teams.

Winning contested footy and clearances has proven to be effective in winning finals, but it's obviously not the only key area. Disposal efficiency and converting on the scoreboard will nearly always make or break a team.

[bornadog]

I was in the process of writing exactly the same thing. I'd be interested to know if this is early season filler citing a trend that's occurring now, or whether the last couple of finals series reflect this too. Free wheeling outside play has won plenty of H&A games over the years, but it nearly always falls apart under the pressure of finals against good teams.

Winning contested footy and clearances has proven to be effective in winning finals, but it's obviously not the only key area. Disposal efficiency and converting on the scoreboard will nearly always make or break a team.

I think you will find the Swans actually started this trend last year. I haven't got the figures in front of me but I recall they didnt win the contested ball in the finals.

I think our problem is that we have two or three players in the pack winning the contested ball and no one on the outside to feed it to. Libba, Boyd Cross Smith all in there.

[Greystache]

I think you will find the Swans actually started this trend last year. I haven't got he figured in front of me but I recall they didnt win the contested balls in the finals.

I think our problem is that we have two or three players in th pack winning the contested ball and no one on the outside to feed it to. Libba, Boyd Cross Smith all in there.

And they were extremely lucky to win the GF, Hawthorn dominated the game but didn't convert in front of goal. Sydney stole it, which proves my point that you still need kicking efficiency both around the ground and in front of goal or you will likely lose. If Hawthorn kicked straight or Sydney were as inaccurate the Hawks would have won by 8 goals.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

I was in the process of writing exactly the same thing. I'd be interested to know if this is early season filler citing a trend that's occurring now, or whether the last couple of finals series reflect this too. Free wheeling outside play has won plenty of H&A games over the years, but it nearly always falls apart under the pressure of finals against good teams.

Winning contested footy and clearances has proven to be effective in winning finals, but it's obviously not the only key area. Disposal efficiency and converting on the scoreboard will nearly always make or break a team.
We also need big players both forward and back that can take a grab. We were hopelessly undermanned against the WCE in defence where Darling Cox and Kennedy reined supreme. We only had Roughead with height in defence and similarly Jones up forward.
The side will look better balanced when the likes of Talia Roberts and Williams come into the team. Cooney was our only midfielder with dash in the West and our lack of pace in the midfield without Griffen is a concern. The development of Hrovat Prudden Hunter Roberts Talia Stringer JJ, Pearce and Macrae becomes critical to our future prospects. The performance against Geelong the previous week was impressive and we should not dwell too much on the aberration against the Eagles, when we simply didn't have the manpower on the day.

[Twodogs]

How do we address our kicking? Is it done in training or is it something that you just have.


Draft guys who can kick, bit to late to teach them after they've been drafted most of the time.


I disagree. A decent kicking technique can be taught. Sure there are guys who are just great kicks but look at their technique. Head over the ball at the point of it impacting with your foot, dont lean back, dont look at the target you are kicking it to but watch the ball drop instead. These are all pretty basic things but our guys just dont seem to work on these points.


We need more left footers in the side. Most left footers are beautiful kicks of the footy. Look at Hawthorn, from memory they have 14-15 left footers in their best 22.

[Greystache]

We also need big players both forward and back that can take a grab. We were hopelessly undermanned against the WCE in defence where Darling Cox and Kennedy reined supreme. We only had Roughead with height in defence and similarly Jones up forward.

The side will look better balanced when the likes of Talia Roberts and Williams come into the team. Cooney was our only midfielder with dash in the West and our lack of pace in the midfield without Griffen is a concern. The development of Hrovat Prudden Hunter Roberts Talia Stringer JJ, Pearce and Macrae becomes critical to our future prospects. The performance against Geelong the previous week was impressive and we should not dwell too much on the aberration against the Eagles, when we simply didn't have the manpower on the day.

I agree with you in relation to height both back and forward, and not just height, quality height. It's a shame Talia is injured because I think he could offer at least what Austin and potentially even Markovic can, with the benefit that he has more upside. Roberts should only be another couple of weeks away from coming into calculations, where we decide to play him will be interesting.

Having watched them I'm not sure how much extra pace Pruden, Hunter, and Hrovat will offer at this stage. Hrovat is a bit of an all round type, but Hunter is more a clever ball user, and Prudden an in close ball magnet.

[SlimPickens]

We need more left footers in the side. Most left footers are beautiful kicks of the footy. Look at Hawthorn, from memory they have 14-15 left footers in their best 22.

Interesting point, we recruited McCrae, Prudden and hunter who are all lefties. I guess Howard is the exception to the rule.

Is it more that left footers just look more natural when they kick? The best kick of a football I've seen is Lindsay Gilbee and he was obviously a right footer.

[Mantis]

Interesting point, we recruited McCrae, Prudden and hunter who are all lefties. I guess Howard is the exception to the rule.



Where does Clay Smith fit in?

And from yester-year what about Andrew Dunkley... a clasic left footer if there ever was one. :rolleyes:

[bornadog]

And they were extremely lucky to win the GF, Hawthorn dominated the game but didn't convert in front of goal. Sydney stole it, which proves my point that you still need kicking efficiency both around the ground and in front of goal or you will likely lose. If Hawthorn kicked straight or Sydney were as inaccurate the Hawks would have won by 8 goals.

Your joking aren't you, 8 goals. Another case of if buts and maybes. In the end the best team won.

[LostDoggy]

I want to see a couple of 70 metre players i.e one who runs 20 and kicks it 50. That's where we are missing out - Motlop, Jetta or Christensen come on over.

[Greystache]

Your joking aren't you, 8 goals. Another case of if buts and maybes. In the end the best team won.

Hardly, ifs or buts, Sydney were lucky Hawthorn didn't convert. You seriously think Sydney were the better team?

[F'scary]

On Lloydy: I have a lot of trouble taking anything he says seriously because everytime I see him or hear him I remember his goal kicking routine.

[SlimPickens]

Where does Clay Smith fit in?

And from yester-year what about Andrew Dunkley... a clasic left footer if there ever was one. :rolleyes:

My personal opinion is that people get too caught up in Clay Smiths action and do not focus on the end result. Not saying he is an elite kick by any stretch but he is certainly not our worst.

[bornadog]

Hardly, ifs or buts, Sydney were lucky Hawthorn didn't convert. You seriously think Sydney were the better team?

We are going off topic, but yes. In fact they were the best team all year.

[BulldogBelle]

Bmac has started with the answer in mind and is working backwards with regards to his methodologies around how we are being coached. He knows, (as most of us do) that premierships are won by strong, hard teams who can maintain physical superiority when (as happens regularly in finals) space diminishes, outside runners dry up and each match up and contest must be fought out.

(Dermie on SEN the other night remarked that in AFL football, if two evenly skilled sides squared off, the team that is most ferocious and brutal will win out every time, and I tend to agree).

In our Halcyon days under Rocket, our hardness and mental strength was lacking and ultimately, that is why Geelong, St Kilda and Collingwood had our measure over those years 2008-10. They knew that in the games that counted, they would have the dogs covered because they were bigger and more ferocious around the ball.

BMac was integral at Geelong throughout this period and so knew that when he took on the Dogs job, he'd have to break the embedded patterns/behavbiours in our play (at the time) and make the cornerstone of our football playing philosophy dependant upon characteristic(s) that would deliver the highest probability of winning a flag.

Unfortunately, there is a trade-off from taking this approach and that is what we are seeing unfold now. I'm sure BMac could have made alterations to our playing style and put a premium on elements that that would see us winning more games in the near term, but this in my opinion would be repeating the sins of the past. If it means we go an extra year or two of development, then so be it... I would rather we enter our next finals series described as a team of "big bodies, hard at the ball and an appetite for mentally/physically challenging games" as opposed to descriptions such as "run and carry, outside flair, x factor, great on the spread".

Just my opinion, but those kids on our list that are learning to play this way will not only become fearsome players as they approach their mid to late twenties, but they will set a benchmark of 'how we play' and a better pattern of behaviour to the generations of players that come through below them.

[OLD SCRAGGer]

Does Lloyd realise you can't just change a list over night?*





*unless you drug them up like Essendon

Lloyd HATES us, so does anyone think he would EVER have anything positive to say about us.. he's an arrogant P$#@k as far as I'm concerned .. CAN'T STAND THE GUY!!!:mad: :mad:

[w3design]

Lloyd HATES us, so does anyone think he would EVER have anything positive to say about us.. he's an arrogant P$#@k as far as I'm concerned .. CAN'T STAND THE GUY!!!:mad: :mad:


Tell us what you really think? ;)

On a more serious note I think we need a lot more patience, and pretty much agree with 2PotScreamer's earlier post.

[Remi Moses]

Great post 2 pot ^^ that is spot on.
I'd like a Motlop Jetta Christensen type at the next draft though

[LostDoggy]

Great post 2pot

[bornadog]

Bmac has started with the answer in mind and is working backwards with regards to his methodologies around how we are being coached. He knows, (as most of us do) that premierships are won by strong, hard teams who can maintain physical superiority when (as happens regularly in finals) space diminishes, outside runners dry up and each match up and contest must be fought out.

(Dermie on SEN the other night remarked that in AFL football, if two evenly skilled sides squared off, the team that is most ferocious and brutal will win out every time, and I tend to agree).

In our Halcyon days under Rocket, our hardness and mental strength was lacking and ultimately, that is why Geelong, St Kilda and Collingwood had our measure over those years 2008-10. They knew that in the games that counted, they would have the dogs covered because they were bigger and more ferocious around the ball.

BMac was integral at Geelong throughout this period and so knew that when he took on the Dogs job, he'd have to break the embedded patterns/behavbiours in our play (at the time) and make the cornerstone of our football playing philosophy dependant upon characteristic(s) that would deliver the highest probability of winning a flag.

Unfortunately, there is a trade-off from taking this approach and that is what we are seeing unfold now. I'm sure BMac could have made alterations to our playing style and put a premium on elements that that would see us winning more games in the near term, but this in my opinion would be repeating the sins of the past. If it means we go an extra year or two of development, then so be it... I would rather we enter our next finals series described as a team of "big bodies, hard at the ball and an appetite for mentally/physically challenging games" as opposed to descriptions such as "run and carry, outside flair, x factor, great on the spread".

Just my opinion, but those kids on our list that are learning to play this way will not only become fearsome players as they approach their mid to late twenties, but they will set a benchmark of 'how we play' and a better pattern of behaviour to the generations of players that come through below them.

Look I agree with you on 95% of what you said, however, funny thing is under Rocket, we were still one of the top contested ball gatherers. Its not everything in a game of football.

Its not that easy to say teams were mentally better than we were, we just didn't have the right players up and going in those years. To play in or even win the grand final, a lot of things have to go right for you, such as very few injuries throughout the year, presuming you have the right type of players to cover all roles etc etc.

We are on the right track, we just can't chuck out the experienced players like Finey says, we have to ease them out while we replace them.

[Maddog37]

The form of some of the older guys along with injuries is forcing our hand anyway. The tipping point comes when the side looks better without Gia, Boyd etc and personally I feel that is not too far off.

[bornadog]

The form of some of the older guys along with injuries is forcing our hand anyway. The tipping point comes when the side looks better without Gia, Boyd etc and personally I feel that is not too far off.

We will be in a much better position next year when the likes of Roughead, Jones, Dahl, Libba, Wallis and that era start to get to 50 plus games.

[Twodogs]

Interesting point, we recruited McCrae, Prudden and hunter who are all lefties. I guess Howard is the exception to the rule.

Is it more that left footers just look more natural when they kick? The best kick of a football I've seen is Lindsay Gilbee and he was obviously a right footer.

For a start you get that extra step because almost every opponent instinctively turns right to try and cover you so you can be fairly confident you have an extra nano-second to balance yourself. The ball drop just seems more natural with the left hand so your balance is better as well. A right footer tends to drop the ball from higher up than a left footer who guides the ball onto their foot.


Left footers tend to worse set shots at goal though due to that left to right drift when we kick the ball long from a standing start. I wonder why right footers dont get any drift?

[F'scary]

For a start you get that extra step because almost every opponent instinctively turns right to try and cover you so you can be fairly confident you have an extra nano-second to balance yourself. The ball drop just seems more natural with the left hand so your balance is better as well. A right footer tends to drop the ball from higher up than a left footer who guides the ball onto their foot.


Left footers tend to worse set shots at goal though due to that left to right drift when we kick the ball long from a standing start. I wonder why right footers dont get any drift?

I agree about the drift but it had its advantages. I was a left footer, dropped the ball to the boot from my left hand but handballed right and bounced the ball right handed. My evading specialty was an instinctive spin to the right, after which I would have to get back onto my left - looked good when it worked (emphasis on the when). The good thing about being a left footer in a majority right footed side was that you always owned a possy on the left side - left BP, HBF, wing, HFF, FP. My coaches liked having a player who could hook it back into the centre corridor from that side of the ground.

[jeemak]

Right footers still get drift.

Off topic Robot, but I'd be inclined to have right footers on the left and vice versa. It actually makes the change of direction across the field easier IMO.

Anyway, great post 2PS. I tend to swing between your view of our time under Eade and BAD's depending on my mood.

[F'scary]

Off topic Robot


Stiff chedda, I was vibing off on a series of comments, one by a moderator, on left foot drift vs right foot and other stuff. Are you some kind of Nazi or something? Why don't you tick off the moderator in the same thread doing the same thing? What does that say about you?



but I'd be inclined to have right footers on the left and vice versa. It actually makes the change of direction across the field easier IMO. Yeah, typical lack of recognition of diversity on your part.

[jeemak]

Stiff chedda, I was vibing off on a series of comments, one by a moderator, on left foot drift vs right foot and other stuff. Are you some kind of Nazi or something? Why don't you tick off the moderator in the same thread doing the same thing? What does that say about you?

Yeah, typical lack of recognition of diversity on your part.

Relax mate. Why would I get stuck into a poster for going off topic and then do the same thing? Saying that's more of a recognition (for benefit of other posters) that I understand I'm going off topic.

Apologies for any offence however, certainly none intended.

[Guido]

In our Halcyon days under Rocket, our hardness and mental strength was lacking and ultimately, that is why Geelong, St Kilda and Collingwood had our measure over those years 2008-10.
IMO they simply had better squads than we did.

St Kilda lost 2 games prior to the 2009 prelim, and they arguably had 3 of the top 5, and 5 of the top 15 performing players in the league across those years (Reiwoldt, Goddard, Hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna).

That we got anywhere near them in that prelim is a credit to Eade ... and anyone who watches that prelim and says we didn't at least match their hardness was watching a different game. Mental strength to put away those 3/4 shots in the last ... well, maybe that I'll give you. But I've seen the supposedly mentally toughest team in the history of the world miss chances like that in the 2008 Grand Final too.

Speaking of which, same probably applies to our list against there's too. Ablett, Scarlett, Chapman, Ling, Corey, Selwood, Bartel, Ottens ... on any given day, any one of these blokes could find themselves in any number of top 5, top 10, top 20 in the comp lists at the time ... we on the other hand probably had 4 or 5 players of that (elite) elite calibre, and at the other end, lack of depth meant we were carrying the likes of Tiller and Callan into finals.

Truth is that we were battling against one of the best squads that have been put together in the last 20 years. That's why they beat us when it counted ... and again, we had our chances that could have seen us get up - it's a credit to Eade that we were even in a position to, rather than any kind of negative on his coaching.

[LostDoggy]

100 per cent correct

[mjp]

I will always believe we spent 2012 fixing something that wasn't broken (contested ball) whilst failing to address the things that were:

Kicking skills given the impending departures of Hargrave and Gilbee and Cooney's ongoing knee issue.
Ball movement which was papered over in 2011 due to Hall's stellar back end...we had lost the ability to kick 100 points per week and competition scoring was going up.

That said, I have mostly enjoyed our efforts this year...we aren't going to win much but the players generally try pretty hard and Stringer/Macrae are encouraging. There is clearly a plan and if the run arrives to support the grunt and Jones keeps improving, we might end up back where we were in 2008...when we hopefully don't have to deal with the next super-power whoever that might be. The eagles swans in 05/06 got it right (and we nearly did in 97/98)...be the best team in an average year and you walk away with a cup.

[bornadog]

I will always believe we spent 2012 fixing something that wasn't broken (contested ball) whilst failing to address the things that were:

Kicking skills given the impending departures of Hargrave and Gilbee and Cooney's ongoing knee issue.
Ball movement which was papered over in 2011 due to Hall's stellar back end...we had lost the ability to kick 100 points per week and competition scoring was going up.

That said, I have mostly enjoyed our efforts this year...we aren't going to win much but the players generally try pretty hard and Stringer/Macrae are encouraging. There is clearly a plan and if the run arrives to support the grunt and Jones keeps improving, we might end up back where we were in 2008...when we hopefully don't have to deal with the next super-power whoever that might be. The eagles swans in 05/06 got it right (and we nearly did in 97/98)...be the best team in an average year and you walk away with a cup.

What we do have looming over the next couple of years are GWS and GC. Some of the kids look fantastic and if they can hold the team together, they may very well be the new super powers.

[azabob]

Stiff chedda, I was vibing off on a series of comments, one by a moderator, on left foot drift vs right foot and other stuff. Are you some kind of Nazi or something? Why don't you tick off the moderator in the same thread doing the same thing? What does that say about you?

Yeah, typical lack of recognition of diversity on your part.

I think you have a short circuit with this one. I took jeemak's comment as saying he was going off the topic, not you.

[GVGjr]

Stiff chedda, I was vibing off on a series of comments, one by a moderator, on left foot drift vs right foot and other stuff. Are you some kind of Nazi or something? Why don't you tick off the moderator in the same thread doing the same thing? What does that say about you?

Yeah, typical lack of recognition of diversity on your part.

Yep, you have taken what Jeemak said the wrong way. Have another read and advise if you still needed to whack others in your reply.

[GVGjr]

That said, I have mostly enjoyed our efforts this year...we aren't going to win much but the players generally try pretty hard and Stringer/Macrae are encouraging. There is clearly a plan and if the run arrives to support the grunt and Jones keeps improving, we might end up back where we were in 2008...when we hopefully don't have to deal with the next super-power whoever that might be. The eagles swans in 05/06 got it right (and we nearly did in 97/98)...be the best team in an average year and you walk away with a cup.

The part of the season I have enjoyed the most is the way the younger players have developed and the way the experienced guys have added something to the mix.

Roughead, Jones, Liberatore, Wallis, Johannisen and Smith have really stepped forward and Lower, Young, Goodes and Stevens have offered a bit more. Add Stringer and Macrae and we are adding some good players to the senior list.

We are still balancing the list management part but there are a lot more encouraging signs than we have had in a while in terms of player development.

[stefoid]

IMO they simply had better squads than we did.

St Kilda lost 2 games prior to the 2009 prelim, and they arguably had 3 of the top 5, and 5 of the top 15 performing players in the league across those years (Reiwoldt, Goddard, Hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna).

That we got anywhere near them in that prelim is a credit to Eade ... and anyone who watches that prelim and says we didn't at least match their hardness was watching a different game. Mental strength to put away those 3/4 shots in the last ... well, maybe that I'll give you. But I've seen the supposedly mentally toughest team in the history of the world miss chances like that in the 2008 Grand Final too.

Speaking of which, same probably applies to our list against there's too. Ablett, Scarlett, Chapman, Ling, Corey, Selwood, Bartel, Ottens ... on any given day, any one of these blokes could find themselves in any number of top 5, top 10, top 20 in the comp lists at the time ... we on the other hand probably had 4 or 5 players of that (elite) elite calibre, and at the other end, lack of depth meant we were carrying the likes of Tiller and Callan into finals.

Truth is that we were battling against one of the best squads that have been put together in the last 20 years. That's why they beat us when it counted ... and again, we had our chances that could have seen us get up - it's a credit to Eade that we were even in a position to, rather than any kind of negative on his coaching.

I felt like our 'prelim teams' had a few too many players who couldnt win contests and/or maintain their performance under finals pressure.

[Remi Moses]

Interesting to hear Steve Mcburney on umpires round admit he made a few mistakes in the 09 prelim.
He was on air with Lindsay Gilbee who constantly reminded him during games he said.
You sure did Steve

[Twodogs]

Interesting to hear Steve Mcburney on umpires round admit he made a few mistakes in the 09 prelim.
He was on air with Lindsay Gilbee who constantly reminded him during games he said.
You sure did Steve

Was that on SEN?

[The Pie Man]

Interesting to hear Steve Mcburney on umpires round admit he made a few mistakes in the 09 prelim.
He was on air with Lindsay Gilbee who constantly reminded him during games he said.
You sure did Steve

Really?

Don't know how to feel about that.

:(

[Maddog37]

I feel like vomiting at the thought of those decisions.

[LostDoggy]

Thanks for admitting it. Makes up for us not playing in a GF.../sigh

[WBFC4FFC]

09 was far worse than the 97 Prelim, as the dodgy decisions occurred all night and were always against the Bullies.

I distinctly remember the following day in the paper how there was a full page devoted to 3 pr 4 of the most dubious from the 09 Prelim, with the AFL official stating every time how the umpire made the correct call. I have never seen anything like it before it or since.

[LongWait]

What we do have looming over the next couple of years are GWS and GC. Some of the kids look fantastic and if they can hold the team together, they may very well be the new super powers.

I agree - so what should we do to combat them? We can't "out-skill" them.

I think we have a game plan and style under construction that takes on the highly skilled sides in areas where they are likely to be less accomplished. It also theoretically takes away some of their skill advantage as physical pressure is applied to a higher degree than they would normally experience.

[PedroArvy]

Interesting stats from last night's Geelong Essendon game...

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-match-report/classy-cats-leaders-of-pack-20130510-2je2r.html


Geelong was beaten in clearances, beaten in contested ball (narrowly) and shaded even for forward entries.


So clearances aren't the one and only. I am not saying they aren't important, there's just more to winning a game. We need to be better at what Geelong does best...


The most glaring differential was in what these teams did with ball in hand. The Cats found teammates, in space, and moved the footy with fluency.

[comrade]

Whilst they may not win a huge amount of clearances in total, Geelong's effective clearances must be pretty high.

When they do win a stoppage, it's generally to their own advantage and especially from the centre, it leads to clean forward 50 entries in contrast to our usual extract-and-kick-long style of clearance.

How do they do this? They block and spread very well and get the ball into the hands of guys who can dispose of it effectively. We lack spreading run and good kickers so we're forced to just bomb it and see it bounce back over our heads.

[LostDoggy]

needs to be done in training, and clearly isn't done enough.

Players like Boyd execute kicks perfectly at training and has an excellent technique, but falls to the pressure of matchday, what do you do about that?

[AndrewP6]

Players like Boyd execute kicks perfectly at training and has an excellent technique, but falls to the pressure of matchday, what do you do about that?

To be honest, I don't think you can do much. If someone's got to thirty and still does it, I think it's more a case of changing their role so as to minimise the exposure of their inadequacies.

[LostDoggy]

Yeah I'd agree. Half forward for Williamstown :-)