One third of the season down - who is on borrowed time?

[bulldogtragic]

Usually I'd say there is two thirds of the season so calling for heads is premature, but one third down, I think we can identify a few who are not performing and are on borrowed time. So lets debate who is clogging the list or past their prime.

I'll start by saying the cut needs to be very deep!!!

Question marks should be over Vez, Tutt, Howard, Addison, Markovic, Austin, Cross, Boyd, Gia. If this is right, makes you wonder about our list management at the end of last year??

Are there others, or have I pulled the trigger on a few too early??

[boydogs]

Why we persist with Austin I don't know, he hasn't showed any glimpse of why we think he can make it. I would like to hear from the coaching staff on this, do they think he is ahead of Grant? That Talia/Roberts/Williams aren't ready? He isn't a similar type of player to Higgins who he was elevated for, I just don't get it.

Vesz showed something at VFL level, Tutt has shown glimpses over the last couple of weeks despite not getting near it today, but Austin gives us nothing. I know you need the mature age triers in a developing side to be competitive, but he is not helping us do that.

[AndrewP6]

Why we persist with Austin I don't know, he hasn't showed any glimpse of why we think he can make it. I would like to hear from the coaching staff on this, do they think he is ahead of Grant? That Talia/Roberts/Williams aren't ready? He isn't a similar type of player to Higgins who he was elevated for, I just don't get it.

Vesz showed something at VFL level, Tutt has shown glimpses over the last couple of weeks despite not getting near it today, but Austin gives us nothing. I know you need the mature age triers in a developing side to be competitive, but he is not helping us do that.

Talia and Williams are both injured, so they can't help for the time being.

[DOG GOD]

Howard definately...another first round wasted pick :(

[GVGjr]

Why we persist with Austin I don't know, he hasn't showed any glimpse of why we think he can make it.

He's a rookie and has come in because of the injuries to Williams, Talia and Roberts.
I still think he's the type of player we want on the rookie list.

[GVGjr]

Question marks should be over Vez, Tutt, Howard, Addison, Markovic, Austin, Cross, Boyd, Gia. If this is right, makes you wonder about our list management at the end of last year??



It's hard to make the call now but I'd be happy to take Boyd, Addison and Markovic off that list although the last two aren't safe.
If you are adding rookies like you have with Austin then Redpath, Greenwood and maybe even Jong would be considerations. I'd prefer to keep Jong though.

At the moment I'd have the following senior listed players under the microscope

Retirees - Giansiracusa and Cross
Veszpremi, Grant, Wood, Pearce, Howard, Tutt and Campbell

The next in line would be Markovic, Cordy and Addison

[LostDoggy]

It's hard to make the call now but I'd be happy to take Boyd, Addison and Markovic off that list although the last two aren't safe.
If you are adding rookies like you have with Austin then Redpath, Greenwood and maybe even Jong would be considerations. I'd prefer to keep Jong though.

At the moment I'd have the following senior listed players under the microscope

Retirees - Giansiracusa and Cross
Veszpremi, Grant, Wood, Pearce, Howard, Tutt and Campbell

The next in line would be Markovic, Cordy and Addison

Markovic and Addison showed last night that there best can be afl standard. Having said that Markovic has to own the second ruck / forward pinch hit as he is not a good enough defender. In past Wood has also shown he can break lines and be an influential player. He will get better with maturity and experience. I don't think we'll be short of opportunities to turn the list over at the end of the year. I still think we are 6-8 quality players short of being competitive for a full season.

[Mantis]

The next in line would be Markovic, Cordy and Addison

Wasn't Cordy given a 3 year deal last year?

I don't disagree with your thoughts, but I can't see us breaking this contract.

[GVGjr]

Wasn't Cordy given a 3 year deal last year?

I don't disagree with your thoughts, but I can't see us breaking this contract.

That's why I had him in the 'other' group. He will still be with us unless we are prepared to bite the bullet. If we move on Campbell like I have already suggested then we have to keep Cordy.

[Go_Dogs]

For mine:-

Retired: Giansiracusa, Cross (think it'll be time)
Delisted: Howard, Veszpremi, Grant (just haven't been able to deliver)
Re-rookie: Campbell (no need for him to be on the senior list at the moment)

Others:
Tutt - I think gets another year because he has pace. He was terrible against North but has shown a few (albeit small) signs so far this year. His form for the balance of the year to determine.

Wood - I still think Wood is worth persisting with, but his injury troubles and inability to string together consistent performances at AFL level is becoming a real concern. I don't think we can persist with him as a defender and think he either needs to become a midfielder or a medium marking forward.

Pearce - Bit surprised to see you nominate him GVGjr, think he's very much in our plans moving forwards, although he'd want to be cementing his spot in the senior side towards the end of the year.

Rookies: Austin and Redpath seem gone, Greenwood due to injury has a bit more time but he'd want to be a consistent performer in the VFL seniors by years end or he's at risk. Jong I think we can persist with for another year on the rookie list.

That's 6 changes to the senior list, which I think is probably enough this year, which would mean a similar turnover to the list at the end of 2014 too.

[azabob]

I thought Campbell was upgraded to the senior list at the end of last year?

[Throughandthrough]

Be quicker to start a thread who isn't on borrowed time

Definite keepers for mine

Griffin
Minson
Murphy
Dahlhaus
Boyd
Libba
Wallis
Morris
Pickens
Jones

Everyone else available for trade or delisting

Ps yes this is a rant rage , and irrational

[GVGjr]

Pearce - Bit surprised to see you nominate him GVGjr, think he's very much in our plans moving forwards, although he'd want to be cementing his spot in the senior side towards the end of the year.



I really don't mind him as a player but as a defender he just doesn't have the dash of a Johannisen, the kicking skills of Goodes or the physical nature of Easton Wood who he would probably compete with for a position in the back 6.

We need to add some creativity to the back line and I'm not sure that Pearce provides that for us. I'd be very pleased if he did though.

[Go_Dogs]

I thought Campbell was upgraded to the senior list at the end of last year?

He was - I meant to remove him from the senior list and put him back on the rookie list - sorry for any confusion.

[GVGjr]

I thought Campbell was upgraded to the senior list at the end of last year?

I think the coach rates him but for me he just doesn't have the mobility. If that improves then great. The fact that he might have another 12 months on a contract might be a consideration but if we can find someone else then I'd consider that.

[Go_Dogs]

I really don't mind him as a player but as a defender he just doesn't have the dash of a Johannisen, the kicking skills of Goodes or the physical nature of Easton Wood who he would probably compete with for a position in the back 6.

We need to add some creativity to the back line and I'm not sure that Pearce provides that for us. I'd be very pleased if he did though.

Fair enough and hard to disagree with the description of him. I think he's a pretty solid performer across most areas although perhaps doesn't have an elite standout skill. I need to see more of him, but I'm still hopeful he can become a player for us either off half back or a wing.

[GVGjr]

Fair enough and hard to disagree with the description of him. I think he's a pretty solid performer across most areas although perhaps doesn't have an elite standout skill. I need to see more of him, but I'm still hopeful he can become a player for us either off half back or a wing.

Given our current list being regarded as a solid player isn't what we really need at the moment.

I agree with you that currently he is a good, all-round player and if he can add something else to his skills then he would be hard to delist at the end of the season.

[LostDoggy]

Its a bit early to say but wouldn't think more than 8 will go:

1 - Tutt
2 -Grant
3 - Howard
4 - Vez
5 - Gia
6 - Cross
7 - Marko

Open to Howard being rookied if he really is a 'slow learner'.

Last one is a trade of one of Williams, Higgins or Wood, to club willing to take a punt - we can't afford to carry so many perpetually injured players.

[westdog54]

Usually I'd say there is two thirds of the season so calling for heads is premature, but one third down, I think we can identify a few who are not performing and are on borrowed time. So lets debate who is clogging the list or past their prime.

I'll start by saying the cut needs to be very deep!!!

Question marks should be over Vez, Tutt, Howard, Addison, Markovic, Austin, Cross, Boyd, Gia. If this is right, makes you wonder about our list management at the end of last year??

Are there others, or have I pulled the trigger on a few too early??

Not sure if thats entirely fair.

Have a look at the departures:
Retired: Gilbee, Hargrave, Djerkurra, Skinner. Time was definitely up for the first two, and the second two, who probably wouldn't have stayed on the list anyway, decided football was no longer their top priority.

Delistings: Moles, Mulligan, Panos, Hill, Sherman. No issues there either. First 4 not up to it, the last one a card-carrying downhill skier.

Trade: Lake. Not in long term plans and wanted to chase a premiership. Win-win for club and player.

There's only so deep that you can cut without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If we cut too deep we end up either going to deep into the draft where speculations abound, or we end up chasing harder than we should for guys like Gumbleton or Prismall. This year will probably be another deep cut.

So far I have Howard and Vez as being in the no column, Gia will almost certainly retire, a big call to be made on one of my favourite all time Bulldogs in Cross, Campbell back to the Rookie list, Austin and Redpath gone from the RL, and Addison, Markovic, Tutt and Pearce have two thirds of the season to 'Show Cause' why they should remain on the list.

So far thats 4, players in my 'No' column, with another 5 not safe and two Rookie Spots to open up.

Goodes has the rest of the year to justify elevation, Jong and Greenwood get another year on the RL each.

[LostDoggy]

Can you just demote a senior player, with a current contract for next season, to the rookie list? Problem with delisting Campbell is we have zero genuine ruck options if Minson goes down. if we can demote to rookie list then fine.

[Throughandthrough]

Can you just demote a senior player, with a current contract for next season, to the rookie list? .

Presumably Nope.

But i guess if you wanted to get around it, you could de-list them, and pay them out.

Then Rookie them.

[bulldogtragic]

Can we cut deep to the level of six or seven senior spots and three rookies?

Replacing non performers with picks around 90 or higher in the ND?

I'm in the yes camp.

[ledge]

Grant, Vezpremi, Howard should be put up for trade or delist.
Gia and Cross maybe retire.
Not a fan of Markovic but after yesterday I'm not sure he should be delisted.
Campbell needs to start getting a game or go.
Redpath and Roberts are safe for another year I would have thought.
Cordy has started to show something so he won't go just yet.

[Greystache]

Can you just demote a senior player, with a current contract for next season, to the rookie list? Problem with delisting Campbell is we have zero genuine ruck options if Minson goes down. if we can demite to rookie list then fine.

Yes you can, you just delist the player. His contact still exists, but if someone else chooses him in the draft he would sign a new contract with them and we would tear up his current one. If no one recruited him we could either pick him up in the rookie draft and continue with him under his previous contact term, or not re-draft him and pay the contract out.

[Rocco Jones]

When thinking about whether we should delist a player I like to use the 'would we even look at him if he was just a Willi listed player rule'.

Grant, Vez and Howard on senior list all get a flat out no.

Redpath and Greenwood the same from the rookie list.

In terms of borderline we have Tutt and Pearce (agree with GVG) there. Same with Austin on rookie list depending on how Talia and Roberts go.

Gia kicked 4 goals yesterday, clever as always but not sure what he gives to the team going forward. I would keep Cross just as a bigger bodied leader type who helps us not get embarrassed.

Markovic has to offer something as a 2nd ruck or he is gone as his agility is nowhere near it for an AFL defender.

I wouldn't payout Cordy and Campbell going to rookie list would depend on how many we are chopping.

If it were Round 22....
Senior retirements/delistings: Gia, Grant, Vez, Howard, Tutt, Pearce, Markovic
Rookie list delistings: Redpath, Greenwood
Rookie upgrade: Goodes

[Ghost Dog]

Be quicker to start a thread who isn't on borrowed time

Definite keepers for mine

Griffin
Minson
Murphy
Dahlhaus
Boyd
Libba
Wallis
Morris
Pickens
Jones



Everyone else available for trade or delisting

Ps yes this is a rant rage , and irrational

T and T....Lower? Was BOG for us behind Minson last night.

Keep
Minson
Griffen
Dahlhaus
Liberatore
Smith
Murphy
JJ
Jones
Lower
Stevens
Young
And obvious ones like new recruits, Stringer and Macrae.
Wallis / Smith ( need a lot of work on disposal )


Everyone else under the microscope
If we got a decent offer for Cooney, I would consider it. Keep only on a reduced salary.
Shows how desperate I've become about our situation, as he's one of my favorite players.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Tutt and Howard both need to be shown the door. Not having a crack at any posters, but the fact that Tutt has pace counts for next to nothing when he can't contest, fumbles and constantly misses targets/goals by foot. Tutt's horrible; he's so incredibly out of his depth that I find it embarrassing to watch. He's deplorable in a contest, he's shocking under pressure at 1) handling the ball 2) making the correct decision and 3) executing the skill. Inevitably he makes a blunder on one of those three steps. The amount of times I've seen him run past contests with one arm hanging out pains me.

I hope he never plays another game for our club.

Cross/Gia to retire. The latter can't run but his footy smarts are still so far ahead of 95% of the players on our list that he will still have games like the one v North.

Retire: Gia, Cross
Delist: Tutt, Howard, Markovic, Vez, Austin, Redpath and Greenwood
Trade/Delist: Grant

Others
Wood: I'd entertain trading him. If he stays, move him up the field.
Williams: If he remains injury plagued, delist/trade. One of Wood/Williams should be moved on.
Cordy: 1 more year.
Campbell: Needs to start showing more, safe for now.

[Ghost Dog]

Tutt and Howard both need to be shown the door. Not having a crack at any posters, but the fact that Tutt has pace counts for next to nothing when he can't contest, fumbles and constantly misses targets/goals by foot. Tutt's horrible; he's so incredibly out of his depth that I find it embarrassing to watch. He's deplorable in a contest, he's shocking under pressure at 1) handling the ball 2) making the correct decision and 3) executing the skill. Inevitably he makes a blunder on one of those three steps. The amount of times I've seen him run past contests with one arm hanging out pains me.

I hope he never plays another game for our club.

Cross/Gia to retire. The latter can't run but his footy smarts are still so far ahead of 95% of the players on our list that he will still have games like the one v North.

Retire: Gia, Cross
Delist: Tutt, Howard, Markovic, Vez, Austin, Redpath and Greenwood
Trade/Delist: Grant

Others
Wood: I'd entertain trading him. If he stays, move him up the field.
Williams: If he remains injury plagued, delist/trade. One of Wood/Williams should be moved on.
Cordy: 1 more year.
Campbell: Needs to start showing more, safe for now.

A good summation. Agree with all of this.

[bulldogtragic]

Tutt and Howard both need to be shown the door. Not having a crack at any posters, but the fact that Tutt has pace counts for next to nothing when he can't contest, fumbles and constantly misses targets/goals by foot. Tutt's horrible; he's so incredibly out of his depth that I find it embarrassing to watch. He's deplorable in a contest, he's shocking under pressure at 1) handling the ball 2) making the correct decision and 3) executing the skill. Inevitably he makes a blunder on one of those three steps. The amount of times I've seen him run past contests with one arm hanging out pains me.

I hope he never plays another game for our club.

Cross/Gia to retire. The latter can't run but his footy smarts are still so far ahead of 95% of the players on our list that he will still have games like the one v North.

Retire: Gia, Cross
Delist: Tutt, Howard, Markovic, Vez, Austin, Redpath and Greenwood
Trade/Delist: Grant

Others
Wood: I'd entertain trading him. If he stays, move him up the field.
Williams: If he remains injury plagued, delist/trade. One of Wood/Williams should be moved on.
Cordy: 1 more year.
Campbell: Needs to start showing more, safe for now.
Getting rid of ten players, deep cut in deed. Can't disagree with you though.

[Hotdog60]

It will be interesting how things pan out when we field our own VFL side.Will players get to play to there strengths and positions. Thus helping hopefully in their development.

We needed a VFL side with the changing of coaches, not blaming Willie as they have to look after their own interests but it could be at the Bullies detriment in developing or fast tracking our young and second tier players.

[Greystache]

There's a lot of deadwood on the list and it just becomes a process of clearing it out over time. 2 years ago the list was a disaster and it'll probably take another 2 years to try to get out into some order. Retirements mean you can't just delist 10 players who aren't up to it all in one year, otherwise we'll have 10-15 come onto the list from one draft and the quality isn't there to do that.

To go at the end of the year

Definite- Cross, Gia, Veszpremi

Probable- Grant, Howard, Redpath, Austin

Possible- Tutt, Wood, Cordy, Markovic, Jong, Greenwood, Addison.

I'd like us to look at another 2 mature state players

[wimberga]

Would we entertain a trade for Shaun Higgins? Could potentially get in the space of 20-35 for him or a decent player from another side.

[bulldogtragic]

Would we entertain a trade for Shaun Higgins? Could potentially get in the space of 20-35 for him or a decent player from another side.
Can't see who would pay anything decent. He's a constantly injured small forward who has never reached his potential. Doesn't strike me as demanding a high draft pick.

[wimberga]

Can't see who would pay anything decent. He's a constantly injured small forward who has never reached his potential. Doesn't strike me as demanding a high draft pick.

I agree with your summation of him as a player but I am sure there has been examples of players with a history of injuries with obvious talent being traded for "reasonable" picks.

As a side note, given your summation, are we going to hold on to him in the hope that he:

1 - finally overcomes what seems to be an endless amount of injuries
2 - finally meets his potential and becomes a real good player for us.

I'm not against keeping Higgins, but in reviewing our list, where we are at and where we are going, should we review this?

If we don't believe that he can do those things, should we continue to keep him on our list and pay him $200-350k (a guess) per year? Could it be time to cut our losses?

[LostDoggy]

Trade/Delist: Jarrad Grant, Patrick Veszpremi, Jason Tutt, Christian Howard, Lukas Markovic, Mark Austin.

Retirements: Daniel Giansiracusa, Daniel Cross.

Tom Campbell to be downgraded to the rookie list with Brett Goodes being promoted.

[Hotdog60]

Trade/Delist: Jarrad Grant, Patrick Veszpremi, Jason Tutt, Christian Howard, Lukas Markovic, Mark Austin.

Retirements: Daniel Giansiracusa, Daniel Cross.

Tom Campbell to be downgraded to the rookie list with Brett Goodes being promoted.

Goodes is already on the senior list. We had one spot open at the start of the season.

[whythelongface]

T and T....Lower? Was BOG for us behind Minson last night.

Keep
Minson
Griffen
Dahlhaus
Liberatore
Smith
Murphy
JJ
Jones
Lower
Stevens
Young
And obvious ones like new recruits, Stringer and Macrae.
Wallis / Smith ( need a lot of work on disposal )


Everyone else under the microscope
If we got a decent offer for Cooney, I would consider it. Keep only on a reduced salary.
Shows how desperate I've become about our situation, as he's one of my favorite players.

You can add Roughead and Goodes to that list. I would perservere with Cooney as he has shown definite patches of form this year. I also believe we need to keep Addison as he is a decent depth player and currently sits in our best 22.

Wood and Williams when not injured would also be in the retain list, however there has to be serious doubts about their ability to stay fit. What are we now heading into Round 8 and Williams has played a couple of games at Willi.


By years end we will probably cut 7 or 8 players - Austin; Howard; Markovich; Grant* ;Vez; Greenwood; Gia (retire);

* Grant - I would really like to see Grant get an extended run in our top team as I still believe he has something to offer. At least he could provide another target in the fwd line - surely he is not that bad that Austin gets selected ahead of him as fwd. But, as others have stated, I think his papers are well and truly marked.

[Mofra]

I agree with your summation of him as a player but I am sure there has been examples of players with a history of injuries with obvious talent being traded for "reasonable" picks.
What did Richmond pay for Chris Knights from Adelaide?
For mine that's near Higgins' currency.

[bulldogtragic]

What did Richmond pay for Chris Knights from Adelaide?
For mine that's near Higgins' currency.
Adelaide got nothing for him. You're a tough judge. :)

[Cyberdoggie]

I'm wondering on what basis people are prepared to write off Greenwood?

Is this based on performance/ability? or just the fact that he hasn't cracked it AFL level yet?

[Throughandthrough]

Would we entertain a trade for Shaun Higgins? Could potentially get in the space of 20-35 for him or a decent player from another side.

A six pack and a souvenier tea spoon from Telstra Tower Canberra

[Mofra]

Adelaide got nothing for him. You're a tough judge. :)
Touche' (didnt realise he was a FA signing :o)

[wimberga]

A few seasons ago I thought perhaps a Bernie Vince for Shaun Higgins trade could have been worthwhile. Both players have great potential but were struggling at their respective clubs. Shaun has continue to injure himself and I could not see this ever happening anymore but at the time I thought it would have reasonable for both sides.

I am sure that mid tier clubs who are heading towards finals or in their window now like Essendon, Carlton, Richmond, North and maybe even Hawks would entertain their second or third rounder for a player with a history of injury but when fit, can be a very good player. Those teams in those positions can afford to carry him, but I don't think we should and therefore they could be seen to be getting him cheap. I would take anything sub 45 really.

With the money we would save in salary, we could have a real crack at someone like Jeremy Cameron or retaining our good young players

[Mofra]

With the money we would save in salary, we could have a real crack at someone like Jeremy Cameron or retaining our good young players
GWS would want the Earth for him. Jones + our pick in the top 4 type value - and even then they'd want a sweetener.

[westdog54]

Goodes is already on the senior list. We had one spot open at the start of the season.

He's been elevated for this season only. Technically still a rookie. Would have to elevate him through the draft to have him on the senior list.