Our Defense - a major problem

[bornadog]

We have major problems in the backline and its going to take some time to fix it. To me other than the midfield, the backline is one of the most important parts of the team.

If you have a solid backline, it goes along way to winning games.

So who is going well and what is needed:

1. Roughead - He is a long way off being a top fullback. The last three games he has been thrashed. Was totally lost against Geelong, beaten and had to be moved. Against WC, again beaten and last night again didn't look comfortable at all and lots of goals kicked against him. I am starting to think he should be our second ruck.

2. JJ - Young still learning, and lots of potential

3. Tom Young - not a KPP, but a very good replacement for Hargrave, has been the surprise down there.

4. Picken - Should not be stuck playing in the back pocket on the smalls. I think he has been inconsistent and he is really not suited for this role.

5. Morris - He is really getting on, He is not the player he once was and not far off retirement for mine. Still a solid contributor buit how long has he got?

6. Austin/Markovic- stop gap only

7. Wood - I have been critical on this board from day one but was shot down by many - make up your own mind.

8. Goodes - A mature player that has done well. Has made some errors at times, but I think with a young team, he has helped us tremendously.


Missing

We really need a tall CHB. Tom Williams should be that player. Forget about sending him forward. But - can he stay on the park, that is the biggest issue.

We also need another HBF with pace that can deliver the ball well, a Gilbee type and a Harbrow type to take other small forwards to relieve Picken.

[SlimPickens]

My thinking is that without midfield pressure on the ball carrier you're all at sea. The back 6 have been under siege for the majority of the year and have tried their guts out.

Wouldn't have thought Roughy has been thrashed, in fact I thought he was quite good in a pure defensive role on Petrie yesterday.

There is no doubting we have lost a lot of talent and experience from the back 6 and it will take time to get the level of cohesion there. But that being said I don't care who you are if a team can run through the midfield unopposed and hit up a target no defensive unit will stop that.

[Mantis]

1. Roughead - He is a long way off being a top fullback. The last three games he has been thrashed. Was totally lost against Geelong, beaten and had to be moved. Against WC, again beaten and last night again didn't look comfortable at all and lots of goals kicked against him. I am starting to think he should be our second ruck.



How many?

[lemmon]

I'm still quite bullish about Roughy as a key back, I agree he's been beaten the last few weeks but I think a lot of the issue has been the guys around him. He is by no means agile but the problem is neither are Marko or Austin; they are all suited to picking up the same type: the slower, bigger key forward. Its been the athletic guy who has got off the chain, Daw last night and Darling against West Coast when Marko/Rough were exposed for lack of athleticism or Young exposed for a lack of size. Its why I think Williams has to go to Centre Half Back, he is an excellent foil for Rough and perfectly suited to these types.

Obviously it would be nice to have Tommy forward but he has proven in the past capable of playing key back on these athletic guys and its where he's really required at the moment. Unfortunately it means Cordy/Marko are gifted games as a key forward and second ruck until we draft one in (come on down Tom Boyd).

[ReLoad]

If my failing memory serves me well enough, Lakes first couple of years had more than plenty of shockers. So the jury is far from out.

Roughy is a kid and he has a lot to learn, he needs 2 more years in the spot before a decision is to be made.

Our big problem is we have no plan B.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

We have major problems in the backline and its going to take some time to fix it. To me other than the midfield, the backline is one of the most important parts of the team.

If you have a solid backline, it goes along way to winning games.

So who is going well and what is needed:

1. Roughead - He is a long way off being a top fullback. The last three games he has been thrashed. Was totally lost against Geelong, beaten and had to be moved. Against WC, again beaten and last night again didn't look comfortable at all and lots of goals kicked against him. I am starting to think he should be our second ruck.

2. JJ - Young still learning, and lots of potential

3. Tom Young - not a KPP, but a very good replacement for Hargrave, has been the surprise down there.

4. Picken - Should not be stuck playing in the back pocket on the smalls. I think he has been inconsistent and he is really not suited for this role.

5. Morris - He is really getting on, He is not the player he once was and not far off retirement for mine. Still a solid contributor buit how long has he got?

6. Austin/Markovic- stop gap only

7. Wood - I have been critical on this board from day one but was shot down by many - make up your own mind.

8. Goodes - A mature player that has done well. Has made some errors at times, but I think with a young team, he has helped us tremendously.


Missing

We really need a tall CHB. Tom Williams should be that player. Forget about sending him forward. But - can he stay on the park, that is the biggest issue.

We also need another HBF with pace that can deliver the ball well, a Gilbee type and a Harbrow type to take other small forwards to relieve Picken.

This is a good thread and I like your thoughts. I am still to be convinced that Roughead is ideally placed at full back. He has done OK but nothing to write home about. More a stop gap key defender. I think the team would now be better served by moving Roughy forward to provide support to Jones and Stringer and as an occasional back up ruckman to Minson. I would prefer to revamp our defence by developing Talia and Roberts as our two key defenders.Your thoughts on Markovic, Austin and Young IMO are good. Young has been a terrific pick up but better suited to a back flank. Without Murphy the defence lacks class and experience apart from Morris. Morris is now struggling due to his long lay off through injury.
I would like to move Griffen to half back to give us the class, stability and maturity that is sadly lacking. This thought will have plenty of critics among woofers but without a strong defence I believe that we will continue to struggle. Our team is currently in tatters and a rework is urgently required.

[Dry Rot]

I still wonder about Jones at CHB.

I know this will get howled down and he can clunk a great mark, but I still don't think he's a natural forward.

[Ghost Dog]

Our team is currently in tatters and a rework is urgently required.

Think we lack consistency, and are too leaning towards inside midfielders.
When you put Boyd, Griffen, Cooney, Murphy, Jones, Stringer, Lower, Liberatore, Dahlhaus in the same side, each of these players is quite capable from a stats point of view.
If we had 3 Nick Lowers in the team to just give us a base line of 4 quarter effort, our stars could shine a bit more.
Where is Stevens at again?

[bornadog]

How many?

Petrie 3, Daw 1, Goldestien resting kicked a couple

[Greystache]

The backline is an issue no doubt, but I don't see why you think Roughead has been smashed the last few weeks. He got beaten against Geelong certainly, but against West Coast Kennedy got a couple in junk time in a thrashing, and Petrie kicked 3 from a massive number of entries directed to him and had minimal impact. I also struggle to see why Williams is a lock as a reliable CHB, he's played a handful of decent games there in his career and had routinely been protected from the best key forwards. If he was thrown in there now he would be badly exposed and a liability.

Talia would be in if his was fit which would keep Austin/Markovic out of there thankfully, but Morris is struggling and doesn't look too have a natural replacement at the moment. We need another creative half back that can defend, Tutt can't defend and Howard can't defend or kick, Wood hasn't improved, and Pearce doesn't look the right type either.

[lemmon]

The backline is an issue no doubt, but I don't see why you think Roughead has been smashed the last few weeks. He got beaten against Geelong certainly, but against West Coast Kennedy got a couple in junk time in a thrashing, and Petrie kicked 3 from a massive number of entries directed to him and had minimal impact.

I agree he hasn't been smashed but that doesn't tell the whole story. Roughy was on Daw for 3 of his goals and was beaten in the air on all three occasions.

[Greystache]

I agree he hasn't been smashed but that doesn't tell the whole story. Roughy was on Daw for 3 of his goals and was beaten in the air on all three occasions.

Really? I watched the replay and in order they were;

Markovic
Charity (down the field free kick while on Markovic)
Markovic
Austin
Roughead
Charity (Free kick for nothing apparently while on Roughead)

At best I'd give him a generous 2 on Roughead, but actually only best him once in the air.

[lemmon]

Really? I watched the replay and in order they were;

Markovic
Charity (down the field free kick while on Markovic)
Markovic
Austin
Roughead
Charity (Free kick for nothing apparently while on Roughead)

At best I'd give him a generous 2 on Roughead, but actually only best him once in the air.

Fair call, at the ground I thought his third was on Roughy, definitely remember him being on the mark but just checked the reply and it was Marko. Foxtel never replayed his last one so calling it charity is a bit harsh (unless you had a closer look at the ground, I couldn't see it). That's 5 for day against Rough (if all Petrie's goals came against Rough, I haven't checked and am happy to be proven wrong) its not a great result and had Majak kicked straighter it could have been worse. Phil Davis won the 'reverse Coleman' last year with 52 goals against, I would like to see Roughys goals against this year.

It sounds like I'm arguing against Roughy at full back but I'm not, as I said before we need another athletic tall so Roughy can match up on his type.

[Greystache]

Fair call, at the ground I thought his third was on Roughy, definitely remember him being on the mark but just checked the reply and it was Marko. Foxtel never replayed his last one so calling it charity is a bit harsh (unless you had a closer look at the ground, I couldn't see it). That's 5 for day against Rough (if all Petrie's goals came against Rough, I haven't checked and am happy to be proven wrong).

If I saw it right it was for a block, basically Roughead didn't get out of his way to allow him to mark uncontested, pretty much the umpire was looking for a way to get Daw another kick. I haven't watched Petrie's yet but he had a mountain of ball kicked to him and Roughy was probably responsible for many of Norf's rushed behinds.

[comrade]

Roughy is doing fine considering we give away so many unpressured inside 50s. Daw was given the ball on a platter because our midfielders were incapable of pressuring the delivery.

Our midfield is our biggest problem. Can't kick, can't spread, can't or won't play defensively. You could have Scarlett at full back and Buddy at full forward - we'd still get beaten with the midfield structure and personnel we have right now.

[G-Mo77]

Really? I watched the replay and in order they were;

Markovic
Charity (down the field free kick while on Markovic)
Markovic
Austin
Roughead
Charity (Free kick for nothing apparently while on Roughead)

At best I'd give him a generous 2 on Roughead, but actually only best him once in the air.

Interesting. I actually thought Austin was the main one responsible. Either way when I took focus on the contests with Daw it was Austin on him and he was just giving him to much space. I don't know why he could stand in front and try and impede his leads a little more.

I should have taken more notice but was more interested in watching Picken and that germ Harvey off the ball.

[azabob]

Roughy is doing fine considering we give away so many unpressured inside 50s. Daw was given the ball on a platter because our midfielders were incapable of pressuring the delivery.

Our midfield is our biggest problem. Can't kick, can't spread, can't or won't play defensively. You could have Scarlett at full back and Buddy at full forward - we'd still get beaten with the midfield structure and personnel we have right now.

I also see our midfield as the biggest problem by far for all the reason you listed.

[G-Mo77]

I also see our midfield as the biggest problem by far for all the reason you listed.

Mids have to play both ways and most don't. It makes the job virtually impossible when that happens. You like at guys like Picken and Lower getting whacked off the ball while trying to defend and never giving up and then to watch the captain of our club stand and watch opponents is very disappointing.

What happened to the guy that tagged out Daniel Kerr in his prime while winning plenty of his own ball?

[Mantis]

Really? I watched the replay and in order they were;

Markovic
Charity (down the field free kick while on Markovic)
Markovic
Austin
Roughead
Charity (Free kick for nothing apparently while on Roughead)

At best I'd give him a generous 2 on Roughead, but actually only best him once in the air.

From memory Markovic only had 2 goals kicked on him while in defence... One on Daw and the other on Black (when he gave away the 50m)... He was shifted forward by the 15min mark.

[bornadog]

From memory Markovic only had 2 goals kicked on him while in defence... One on Daw and the other on Black (when he gave away the 50m)... He was shifted forward by the 15min mark.

Correct

[Mofra]

My thinking is that without midfield pressure on the ball carrier you're all at sea. The back 6 have been under siege for the majority of the year and have tried their guts out.
This x 1,000

It's difficult looking at he back 6 or forward 6 in isolation when the team is so dependant on itself all over the ground.
Midfield gets smashed, and guess what? The ball coming into the defensive 50 is fast and accurate, a defenders nightmare.
Midfield pressure the ball carrier, you get less defensive 50 entries, hurried less accurate ball, and the defenders' job is much easier.

I'll still back Roughy in, think Young has surprised and could eventually play a lockdown role similar to Morris (I won't use the term "3rd tall" because I think that term is utter bullshit), would love a straight line rebounder (think a Wood-type who actually gets a bit of ball on the rebound) and is very bullish about JJ.

As an aside, if we are talking about position it shouldn't be too hard to find a lock-down BP in the state leagues should it? A Tim Callan type with a very high dose of the bastard-gene.

[The Pie Man]

Roughy is doing fine considering we give away so many unpressured inside 50s. Daw was given the ball on a platter because our midfielders were incapable of pressuring the delivery.

Our midfield is our biggest problem. Can't kick, can't spread, can't or won't play defensively. You could have Scarlett at full back and Buddy at full forward - we'd still get beaten with the midfield structure and personnel we have right now.

This is the source of the issue - case in point : JJ looking to hit Minson up in the centre from 20 metres away in the 3rd quarter & overcooked it...from the resulting turnover Daw had the prime position deep due to nature of the turnover & ease of disposal into their forward 50.

Pretty hard to defend against that. Wondering how far away cleaner use of the ball is for our guys.

[Greystache]

From memory Markovic only had 2 goals kicked on him while in defence... One on Daw and the other on Black (when he gave away the 50m)... He was shifted forward by the 15min mark.

I watched the replay of all of his goals, that list is who was on him at the time, I wasn't guessing.

[Greystache]

As an aside, if we are talking about position it shouldn't be too hard to find a lock-down BP in the state leagues should it? A Tim Callan type with a very high dose of the bastard-gene.

Someone like Hibberd from Essendon who they got from Frankston in the VFL would be nice.

[bornadog]

The other issue with the backline is the kick outs after a point. This has been a major problem this year and have been hit and miss. Goodes has been ok, but has also turned it over a few times.

We need more of this:

rXLSX_wi6Jw

[G-Mo77]

If you see on that one Libba just grabbed the ball and kicked to the 2 on 1 contest. Moved the ball quickly and the end result was a goal. Probably a bit lucky but they took a risk and it paid off. I'd love to see more of that than an easy kick sideways or backwards. We're moving the ball too slowly and getting caught out.

[whythelongface]

If you see on that one Libba just grabbed the ball and kicked to the 2 on 1 contest. Moved the ball quickly and the end result was a goal. Probably a bit lucky but they took a risk and it paid off. I'd love to see more of that than an easy kick sideways or backwards. We're moving the ball too slowly and getting caught out.

Agree. It is a major concern.

There was another kick-in (think it was JJ) where it was driven straight down the middle to the top of the centre square and found one of our players unmarked. That is what I would like to see on a more consistent basis. Obviously easier said than done and is dependant on a good lead and an accurate kick-in.

To many times on the weekend we kicked in and a NM player took a mark and brought the ball back into our defensive 50. Poor decision making skills.

As shown in the video post by BAD a good kick in (or sometimes lucky one in the case of the video) can really set up an end to an end goal. Unfortunately in our case I really shudder when we have a kick-in.

[bornadog]

If you see on that one Libba just grabbed the ball and kicked to the 2 on 1 contest. Moved the ball quickly and the end result was a goal. Probably a bit lucky but they took a risk and it paid off. I'd love to see more of that than an easy kick sideways or backwards. We're moving the ball too slowly and getting caught out.

We must have conceded about 3 or 4 goals from the kick outs this week, very frustrating when the game was in the balance early on.

[Mofra]

Agree. It is a major concern.

There was another kick-in (think it was JJ) where it was driven straight down the middle to the top of the centre square and found one of our players unmarked. That is what I would like to see on a more consistent basis. Obviously easier said than done and is dependant on a good lead and an accurate kick-in.
Goodes will help this - if we have to kick to a contest it would be nice to have JJ at the fall of the ball, one of our few line-breakers.

[Greystache]

Goodes will help this - if we have to kick to a contest it would be nice to have JJ at the fall of the ball, one of our few line-breakers.

It'd also be nice to have a tall player to kick the ball to who can take a mark. Jones is the only one we have (other than Markovic at a stretch) and Jones is who the next kick needs to go to.

[Mofra]

It'd also be nice to have a tall player to kick the ball to who can take a mark. Jones is the only one we have (other than Markovic at a stretch) and Jones is who the next kick needs to go to.
Minson & Jones to spread, one JJ/Griffen/Cooney at the fall for each?

I'll go predictable 90% of the time if it's remotely effective, with a clever type to snag a few shorter kick ins. The current situation doesn't work against the real disciplined teams (thinking back to the Freo game, they were extremely well set up at almost all times).

[stefoid]

Theoretically we have Williams and Wood available for defensive duties.. one day.

Club was pretty smart picking up Young and Goodes - benefits of a list manager I guess.

[Mofra]

Club was pretty smart picking up Young and Goodes - benefits of a list manager I guess.
I was very wrong about the Young pick up - it's looking like a bargain at this stage.

[azabob]

OK, so it looks like Roughead is established as a key building block for our back six.

Have either of Michael Talia or Fletcher Roberts shown enough potential to be the second key back, to be Jordan Rougheads partner in crime (so to speak)?

I was disappointed to see Roberts dropped after a poor game forward, in my view he had not done too much wrong when he played in defence.

Clearly the coaches think both players have key areas to work on.

I tend to think Talia's issue is he needs to work on is his one-on-one defensive work and with Roberts is he quick enough or strong enough to hold down a key post?

What are other posters views?, do we need to draft other key defenders or are we happy enough to see what Roberts and Talia can offer and build on over the coming year or so.

Keeping in mind we have other pressing list management issues also, such as outside run and effective disposal and also a key forward would not go astray.

[Scorlibo]

OK, so it looks like Roughead is established as a key building block for our back six.

Have either of Michael Talia or Fletcher Roberts shown enough potential to be the second key back, to be Jordan Rougheads partner in crime (so to speak)?

I was disappointed to see Roberts dropped after a poor game forward, in my view he had not done too much wrong when he played in defence.

Clearly the coaches think both players have key areas to work on.

I tend to think Talia's issue is he needs to work on is his one-on-one defensive work and with Roberts is he quick enough or strong enough to hold down a key post?

What are other posters views?, do we need to draft other key defenders or are we happy enough to see what Roberts and Talia can offer and build on over the coming year or so.

Keeping in mind we have other pressing list management issues also, such as outside run and effective disposal and also a key forward would not go astray.

I liked the glimpses we saw from Roberts, and like you found it surprising that he was dropped. It does just seem to be a case of Dale coming back and stealing his place in the side. I would be happy for Dale to play small if it means we can develop Roberts in the seniors.

[Webby]

I liked the look of Talia a year or two ago, but now I prefer Roberts. He's impressed me. Both those blokes need to work their backsides off this coming pre season. They need extra speed, size and strength. Talia needs work in his kicking, too.

If ever those two blokes were to cancel their Chrissy holidays and get to work, this is the one. They could both have good careers if they really want it. I see them together out and about. They seem good mates. It'd be good if they could really eyeball each other and push themselves in the gym and on the track this spring & summer.

[bornadog]

Roberts really needs to add some strength to his skinny frame, but I think he can hold down CHB in years to come. For now he is ok to prove himself in the VFL. Talia will come good, he has shown signs and is still very young.