Pack your bags McCartney...

[F'scary]

McCartney's other major problem is list management.

We have put hell of alot of development time into Jones,Cordy,Howard,Tutt,Grant,Roberts,Redpath and Pearce. You can also add Darley, Fuller and Young to that list and thats ~30% of the list with serious question marks against it.

If you take the glass empty approach, if some of these players don't come on we are in for an extended run at the bottom of the ladder.

Yep, because you get 1 1st round draft pick, 1 2nd round draft pick, 1 3rd round draft pick, etc per year. After that it is trades and delisted players It is very difficult to transform the list in a relatively short period of time.

[azabob]

McCartney's other major problem is list management.

We have put hell of alot of development time into Jones,Cordy,Howard,Tutt,Grant,Roberts,Redpath and Pearce. You can also add Darley, Fuller and Young to that list and thats ~30% of the list with serious question marks against it.

If you take the glass empty approach, if some of these players don't come on we are in for an extended run at the bottom of the ladder.

Which McCartney? ;) Yes you are right though quiet a few changes need to be made at the end of the year.

[jeemak]

Yep, because you get 1 1st round draft pick, 1 2nd round draft pick, 1 3rd round draft pick, etc per year. After that it is trades and delisted players It is very difficult to transform the list in a relatively short period of time.

Yeah, first of all Redpath is a rookie, while each of Darley and Fuller will be into their second year (the mandatory amount for a draftee) next year meaning it's likely the club will keep them on (unless there's serious attitude issues that need addressing IMO).

Even so, if we decided to delist all of the 10 listed players we could upgrade rookies to fill some gaps, and go to the preseason draft to supplement the national draft selection (last year's had nine rounds).

[F'scary]

Yeah, first of all Redpath is a rookie, while each of Darley and Fuller will be into their second year (the mandatory amount for a draftee) next year meaning it's likely the club will keep them on (unless there's serious attitude issues that need addressing IMO).

Even so, if we decided to delist all of the 10 listed players we could upgrade rookies to fill some gaps, and go to the preseason draft to supplement the national draft selection (last year's had nine rounds).

I think the number of kruder's question marks is pretty reasonable and 3rd year rookies who don't look like they are going to be promoted are part of the issue. But I don't think some of the question marks are ready for the chop just yet - mind you, they have form when it comes to one or more of chequered careers, inconsistency and skill or physical deficiencies.

[whythelongface]

Good passionate debate. I don't like the headline but certainly a lot of the recent debate is warranted, especially considering we have been disappointing based on our expectations coming off last year.

In saying that we have been disappointing I still believe that we are on the right path and that McCartney will continue to develop our team into a hard team that plays an uncompromising tough brand of no-frills football. I don't think we will have the cattle to play an attractive brand of football as we currently a) don't have the runners and b) don't have the forwards. This may change if we are able to draft/ trade for players that we are in short supply of. However in the short term we will probably grind out wins. It is tough and frustrating to watch at times, but unfortunately it is what it is.

McCartney also as a coach is still developing and has no doubt made mistakes on game day. Whilst he probably doesn't admit this publicly he probably self reflects and discusses what he and the coaches could do better on game day. However in saying that he can't take full responsibility for all our performances, some of this has to rest with the players - last weekend we had 67 inside 50's and managed 6 goals. At one stage we were 1.8 - surely this can't all be the coaches fault. The fact that we were able to control large chunks of the game against the beaten Grand Finalists says that our MC had some aspects of what was happening on game day right. If we had of been 5.3 or 6.2 even we would have had a good lead over Freo. Anyway my point is that whilst he is still developing as a coach, the whole club needs to take responsibility for the overall disappointing start to the season.

As supporters we want to see continuous improvement in our team and it is frustrating when things don't appear to be working, however as we are still a developing team I would like to see McCartney in his role for this season and next season. If by this time next season there has not been some serious improvement then it will be time to seriously look at his position, but until then I will continue to support him as Head Coach (this doesn't mean that he is beyond criticism).

[Go_Dogs]

Nice post WTLF.

[LostDoggy]

If we trade for a quality tall forward and don't improve next year I'll call for Macca's head. Until that point he still gets my support as I like 80 percent of what I see in his approach. You can paint a horse and cart bright red and its still not going to be a Ferrari. He needs this piece of the jigsaw before we can accurately judge.

[jeemak]

If we trade for a quality tall forward and don't improve next year I'll call for Macca's head. Until that point he still gets my support as I like 80 percent of what I see in his approach. You can paint a horse and cart bright red and its still not going to be a Ferrari. He needs this piece of the jigsaw before we can accurately judge.

What happens if two or all of Boyd, Murphy and Gia retire (or get retired), Dale gets injured and we don't have Higgins because he was shipped off as part of a deal to GWS for an under-performing Patton, and finish on the same wins, or one less than we do this year?

Because, even though I doubt the landing of Patton is much of a chance the others I'm pretty nervous about and think will have a pretty negative impact on the performance of the team!

[Topdog]

David king just described us as "difficult to watch". Talk about an understatement.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

David king just described us as "difficult to watch". Talk about an understatement.

Yep - and not so long ago David King was a huge wrap for us, he was the first 'media personality' to jump on board last year before we even hit that late run of good form.

You don't have to be a genius to see that we're difficult to watch, but I really rate King and his footy opinion.

[Remi Moses]

Yep - and not so long ago David King was a huge wrap for us, he was the first 'media personality' to jump on board last year before we even hit that late run of good form.

You don't have to be a genius to see that we're difficult to watch, but I really rate King and his footy opinion.

We're difficult to watch ( as are quite a few teams) David King swings in the breeze a bit with his opinion.
That whole hypothetical trade scenario he threw up was unrealistic .

[jeemak]

David king just described us as "difficult to watch". Talk about an understatement.

By chance did he provide an insight on how we can go about fixing things? We all know we're difficult to watch, but apart from comments to that nature nobody seems to have tangibles aside from landing messiah key forwards to get us out of our current predicament.

[Topdog]

Yep - and not so long ago David King was a huge wrap for us, he was the first 'media personality' to jump on board last year before we even hit that late run of good form.

You don't have to be a genius to see that we're difficult to watch, but I really rate King and his footy opinion.

Just read what I wrote again and it does sound like I was paying out on king, just very poorly written my behalf. Just wanted to highlight that good media are now starting to talk about how hard it is to watch us

[Topdog]

By chance did he provide an insight on how we can go about fixing things? We all know we're difficult to watch, but apart from comments to that nature nobody seems to have tangibles aside from landing messiah key forwards to get us out of our current predicament.

A big forward isn't going to suddenly help our run and carry

[bulldogtragic]

Just read what I wrote again and it does sound like I was paying out on king, just very poorly written my behalf. Just wanted to highlight that good media are now starting to talk about how hard it is to watch us

I thought that was what you meant. Not many in media were speaking positively, and now there's one less. Not sure Dermott's prediction of us having the best midfield in the comp by next week will come true.

[azabob]

We're difficult to watch ( as are quite a few teams) David King swings in the breeze a bit with his opinion.
That whole hypothetical trade scenario he threw up was unrealistic .

What was the scenario?

[Webby]

Our blueprint is and has always been to build a team from the inside out. That means constructing a midfield that wins contested footy. I think that box is ticked. Our contested footy stats stack up. The remaining parts are, as WTLF points out, ball carriers and forwards.

Unfortunately, to land good forwards, the odds increase dramatically with early picks. Either that, or with trades where you actually have to give quality to get it.. (This is why I bring up the bold option of trading Griffen and a pick for a proven young key forward).

We've taken the safe route in recent drafts. We've played percentages and drafted the higher probability versatile midfielder types. Again, building our game plan from the inside out. What this means, however, is a glut of similar players. There are certain clubs who lack inside mid grunt, yet have a healthy depth of KPP's and ball carrying mids. We need to start trading to balance up our list.

Remembering, too, that by finishing towards the bottom of the ladder, we're in a good position to access players via the pre season draft. I'd expect us to begin filling the missing places via the National Draft, Pre Season Draft, free agency and trading this off season.

Next year, we'll begin to take shape. We won't make finals, but we'll have a more functional and balanced structure. Unfortunately our list was a mess in 2011 and Jesus Christ Himself couldn't have coached a glut of U23 inside mids to finals.

I'd just implore everyone to remember that this is the blueprint we've been told about from day 1 by McCartney. The only BS we were sold was the "It's a refresh, not a rebuild" guff that came from another bloke.

[jeemak]

A big forward isn't going to suddenly help our run and carry

Agreed.

My frustration isn't with you or your post. Rather, it's with highly paid experts with no accountability telling us what we already know about ourselves without being accountable to providing tangible options to remedy the issues we have.

Football analysts in our code get paid money for jam.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Just read what I wrote again and it does sound like I was paying out on king, just very poorly written my behalf. Just wanted to highlight that good media are now starting to talk about how hard it is to watch us

I didn't think it was poorly written at all TD, I knew what you were saying and agreed haha.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

We're difficult to watch ( as are quite a few teams) David King swings in the breeze a bit with his opinion.
That whole hypothetical trade scenario he threw up was unrealistic .

I must have missed that bit. What was the hypothetical trade?


Agreed.

My frustration isn't with you or your post. Rather, it's with highly paid experts with no accountability telling us what we already know about ourselves without being accountable to providing tangible options to remedy the issues we have.

Football analysts in our code get paid money for jam.

Although I agree on the whole, King is one of the few who is very articulate with his analysis.

From what I saw on this occasion, they didn't analyse why we were difficult to watch - it more of a passing comment.

[jeemak]

I must have missed that bit. What was the hypothetical trade?



Although I agree on the whole, King is one of the few who is very articulate with his analysis.

From what I saw on this occasion, they didn't analyse why we were difficult to watch - it more of a passing comment.

Which seems to me to be a real issue with the way we're discussed in the media. Part of it is a commercial reality, the other part for mine is there's no magic pudding for analysts to hang their hats on, apart from the obvious. Webby (who's contributions have been excellent these past months) suggests hitting the PSD to try and secure midfield talent who are outside oriented. Numerous posters here can think of avenues to improvement but all we get from mainstream media is the same shit we thought about a year ago.

There's just no depth in football analysis.

[bulldogtragic]

Which seems to me to be a real issue with the way we're discussed in the media. Part of it is a commercial reality, the other part for mine is there's no magic pudding for analysts to hang their hats on, apart from the obvious. Webby (who's contributions have been excellent these past months) suggests hitting the PSD to try and secure midfield talent who are outside oriented. Numerous posters here can think of avenues to improvement but all we get from mainstream media is the same shit we thought about a year ago.

There's just no depth in football analysis.

I agree. But also assume David King goes to a production meeting and says I want to spend 3 minutes talking about the dogs, what does the exec producer say?

There's no Cinderella story, no brownlow fancy, sexy port like resurgence, a returning coach taking a rabble to competitive, etc. I can't think of one narrative or story that we have so far this season that is worthy of spending air time on. The only way I see any media is like last year or more likely if we keep losing and it ain't going to be good for anyone. And when one TV program runs it, all of them do and that's when people get nervous about itchy trigger fingers on people's careers to stop the media. Gunga galunga.

[Sedat]

Contested ball is way down this season compared to last, so the inside out approach to our rebuild has already hit a snag before we've even worked on phase 2 of the rebuild. Also our tackling numbers are well up but only around the stoppages - we are 18th in the competition for tackling outside the stoppages.

A key forward is not going to be the panacea to our problems if we don't address other elements further up the ground.

[bulldogtragic]

Contested ball is way down this season compared to last, so the inside out approach to our rebuild has already hit a snag before we've even worked on phase 2 of the rebuild. Also our tackling numbers are well up but only around the stoppages - we are 18th in the competition for tackling outside the stoppages.

A key forward is not going to be the panacea to our problems if we don't address other elements further up the ground.

Thank you for saying so too. I'm not sure what Patton would've done to change the game last week, well actually I do know. Not much.

[jeemak]

Contested ball is way down this season compared to last, so the inside out approach to our rebuild has already hit a snag before we've even worked on phase 2 of the rebuild. Also our tackling numbers are well up but only around the stoppages - we are 18th in the competition for tackling outside the stoppages.

A key forward is not going to be the panacea to our problems if we don't address other elements further up the ground.

Sedat, would it be possible that contested ball numbers are down as a result of trying to adjust the plan to concentrate on other areas?

I don't think there's many of us that think a Patton or whoever is going to be the difference.

[whythelongface]

Thank you for saying so too. I'm not sure what Patton would've done to change the game last week, well actually I do know. Not much.

I actually believe, that due to our weight of possession, a contested marking forward would have made a big difference last week. This does not mean that this is the panacea for all our problems, however in last week's game it certainly would have helped. Whether we would have won the game is a mute point.

[Topdog]

The other guy Mark McClure (sp??) sounded like he thinks McCartney is all talk to me.

He also suggested we should offer Griff for Jeremy Cameron which i kind of agree with.

BTW any chance we can rename this thread as with its current name i hate clicking on it. The discussion inside is great but awful name.

[bulldogtragic]

The other guy Mark McClure (sp??) sounded like he thinks McCartney is all talk to me.

He also suggested we should offer Griff for Jeremy Cameron which i kind of agree with.

BTW any chance we can rename this thread as with its current name i hate clicking on it. The discussion inside is great but awful name.

Last year that should've been on the cards. We can't sell a club captain. Pound for pound as players, it makes some sense or at least arguable. But now he's a captain, I don't see how we do it unless they offer him $800,000 and it's mutual. But that's unrealistic.

[Webby]

Last year that should've been on the cards. We can't sell a club captain. Pound for pound as players, it makes some sense or at least arguable. But now he's a captain, I don't see how we do it unless they offer him $800,000 and it's mutual. But that's unrealistic.

I pointed out in another thread that the last time we sold a champion club captain was Templeton in 1982. Although terribly tough at the time, it was the best move the club could've made. (And believe me, I was distraught at the time!)

That was '82 and we enticed Chocco Royal from Bairnsdale, Andrew Purser and Jimmy Sewell with the money. We also nabbed Brad Hardie on the back of it.

We went from last in 1982 (our final game of that season remains our heaviest ever defeat) to a bee's dick from a grand final in 1985.

What's more, Royal won the '83 b&f, Purser the '84 b&f and Hardie the '85 Brownlow.

And at the time, all I could think was "who the fk are these no names? I want KT, sack the board!"

Point is, we need to occasionally open our minds and lead with our heads from time to time.

[Webby]

I think that we’re up with the best in the league for inside contested footy. The thing that distorts the overall figure is our lack of outside contested footy. (As in gathering the loose ball on the run etc). For me this is our big deficiency. We don’t gather loose ball across half back and set up the way the better sides do. This includes run and carry as well. That deficiency also leads to poor delivery both around the ground and into the forward line. We simply don’t get clear air possessions in the volumes that the better sides do.

We have a two-pronged issue in that our delivery into the forward line is poor and we don’t have clear, structured targets. Drag it further back up the field and I’d point out that the lack of clean movement through midfield leads to a lack of space in our forward line. So with a lack of space, poor delivery and no genuine target, we really do have to scrap for scores. A lack of reward for effort is demoralising, whilst it also means we have to work twice as hard to put a score on the board. That leads to more scrappiness, less clean, slower movement, more forward line congestion and so on. There’s a combination of things and they have a multiplier effect.

However, just as one problem leads to another and things exacerbate, the same is true in reverse. If we can pursue some solutions such as trading an inside midfielder for an outside mid and/or a quality target, as well as getting some specific training into some players to improve their outside run and structure, I think we’ll find that those elements work as multipliers. Suddenly we’re disposing of the footy a lot better and making step improvements.

The only issue is that these things don’t happen throughout the course of one season. They have to occur over a few seasons. We’re still getting game time into a list of players which is largely 23 or under. Just think back for a moment. Doug Hawkins was 24 when he began to really go to the next level. Brad Johnson was 24 when he took the next step and probably played his best footy at around 29-30 years of age. This is a very, very young list and two thirds of them will be better players next year and better again the year after and so on. As they improve, they will be ready to learn more and more elements of the game. In four years time, they will be complete & will be contesting late into finals.

By the end of McCartney’s current contract, we will know whether or not we’re tracking to that schedule. As with clubs like North Melbourne, young lists are up and down and progress is not strictly lineal. It was always going to be a long road post 2012.
I guess the takeaway is patience. Patience is something that could be the great strength of our supporter base. The thing that’s killed Richmond in modern times has been their fan base’s complete lack of patience. They put huge pressure on their administrators and the results have been a series of silly, short term pressure valve decisions. Carlton have fallen into the same trap, whilst I hope to God that Essendon are following suit..!

Us, on the other hand, we’re building a good core of young blokes. Their individual development is more what I’m watching for at present. The game plan will be more of an issue in 2-3 years time.

[bulldogtragic]

I pointed out in another thread that the last time we sold a champion club captain was Templeton in 1982. Although terribly tough at the time, it was the best move the club could've made. (And believe me, I was distraught at the time!)

That was '82 and we enticed Chocco Royal from Bairnsdale, Andrew Purser and Jimmy Sewell with the money. We also nabbed Brad Hardie on the back of it.

We went from last in 1982 (our final game of that season remains our heaviest ever defeat) to a bee's dick from a grand final in 1985.

What's more, Royal won the '83 b&f, Purser the '84 b&f and Hardie the '85 Brownlow.

And at the time, all I could think was "who the fk are these no names? I want KT, sack the board!"

Point is, we need to occasionally open our minds and lead with our heads from time to time.

My mind is open, for a crazy good price. Last year I was prepared to listen to all sides of the debate for Patton of Boyd etc. I don't think anyone is ever completely safe, I think Dennis Pagan once said he'd trade Wayne Carey for 6 first round draft picks (or some random number, etc). I'm not philosophically opposed to trading anyone, but when you make a player captain, it makes it very, very hard for a number of reasons and last year like Minno, the trade value was sky high - so my assumption is that we would have done it already if we had really wanted to. But any trade with any player needs to be a clear win for us. Trading in desperation (see Rhode in the dictionary) and then later with Sherman, Vez (etc) can't be allowed happen if people wnting to keep their roles think they need immediate wins. We're down the bottom so stick it out unlike bloody cheap as chips.

[Bulldog4life]

The other guy Mark McClure (sp??) sounded like he thinks McCartney is all talk to me.

He also suggested we should offer Griff for Jeremy Cameron which i kind of agree with.

BTW any chance we can rename this thread as with its current name i hate clicking on it. The discussion inside is great but awful name.

Yes great idea. We won't worry about the fact that he has been quoted as saying how much he loves the Club, is our recently appointed captain and that he doesn't want to go anywhere. Let's get rid of Griff. Who cares about sentiment and loyalty. It's business and we want to win anyway we can.:mad:

[azabob]

If we were to trade Griffen, which I am dead against - who would actually get the footy for us and take the game on?

Liberatore is our only other consistent ball winner, and his output goes down when he's heavily tagged.

Griffen very rarely has a poor day like he did on Sunday.

No point having Cameron with no one being able to get the footy to him.


Hence why my prefrence is first and formost an outside quick running player who has the ability to hit targets by foot and hand over any distance.

[Sedat]

Sedat, would it be possible that contested ball numbers are down as a result of trying to adjust the plan to concentrate on other areas?
That's a possibility, but if that is the case then we have been spectacularly unsuccessful in improving these other areas (presumably you're talking about run and spread, and transition of ball from defence to attack).

By contrast, we focused on contested ball and winning clearances from the start of BMac's tenure and we were very successful at improving our numbers in this area from day one. Now these areas have gone backwards significantly in 2014 and we have not improved any other areas of the game plan to compensate. It is a concern IMO - we appear to be a one-trick pony, and this one trick has already appeared to be counter-attacked and overcome by the opposition coaches.

And our drafting during the BMac years from 2011 until now has not come close to addressing our obvious pace and outside run deficiencies in the midfield, so this area of concern will not improve organically within our current list at all. Yes we need a contested marking power forward monster, but we need so much more, and we haven't really been effective in the last 3 years in addressing any of our other areas of weakness through the draft or trades.

[Webby]

My mind is open, for a crazy good price. Last year I was prepared to listen to all sides of the debate for Patton of Boyd etc. I don't think anyone is ever completely safe, I think Dennis Pagan once said he'd trade Wayne Carey for 6 first round draft picks (or some random number, etc). I'm not philosophically opposed to trading anyone, but when you make a player captain, it makes it very, very hard for a number of reasons and last year like Minno, the trade value was sky high - so my assumption is that we would have done it already if we had really wanted to. But any trade with any player needs to be a clear win for us. Trading in desperation (see Rhode in the dictionary) and then later with Sherman, Vez (etc) can't be allowed happen if people wnting to keep their roles think they need immediate wins. We're down the bottom so stick it out unlike bloody cheap as chips.


The Sherman trade was a perfect example of short sightedness winning over patience. (I feel justified in saying this as I called it as such at the time to any mate that would listen)
Giving up a priority pick for an average mature age player was part of the reason that our list now has a hole in it for 24+ year olds.

The Griffen option is the opposite scenario. It’s short term pain for a longer term gain. We pretty much know that our window won’t be open for 3-4 years. Griff will be 28 by the time the season’s out.
If, say, Adelaide finish off the year strongly (with Walker back) and feel that they are a good chance of seriously challenging in the next 2-3 years, would they be interested in perhaps taking Griff for their first round pick?

And honestly tell me this one: As an Adelaide boy who’s staring down the barrel of 3 of his remaining 4 years being a non-contender, would Griff be grateful for the opportunity to head home?
This scenario is a part on good terms, no bitterness, mutually beneficial scenario. What’s more, you get an opportunity opening up for a Stringer, Smith, Bontempelli or Macrae to step up and develop.

Then, once you’re holding (approx) picks 4, 12 and 21, you have a fair few options opening up to you. It’s just a thought. One I think worth seriously considering.

[bulldogtragic]

The Sherman trade was a perfect example of short sightedness winning over patience. (I feel justified in saying this as I called it as such at the time to any mate that would listen)
Giving up a priority pick for an average mature age player was part of the reason that our list now has a hole in it for 24+ year olds.

The Griffen option is the opposite scenario. It’s short term pain for a longer term gain. We pretty much know that our window won’t be open for 3-4 years. Griff will be 28 by the time the season’s out.
If, say, Adelaide finish off the year strongly (with Walker back) and feel that they are a good chance of seriously challenging in the next 2-3 years, would they be interested in perhaps taking Griff for their first round pick?

And honestly tell me this one: As an Adelaide boy who’s staring down the barrel of 3 of his remaining 4 years being a non-contender, would Griff be grateful for the opportunity to head home?
This scenario is a part on good terms, no bitterness, mutually beneficial scenario. What’s more, you get an opportunity opening up for a Stringer, Smith, Bontempelli or Macrae to step up and develop.

Then, once you’re holding (approx) picks 4, 12 and 21, you have a fair few options opening up to you. It’s just a thought. One I think worth seriously considering.

If Griff's up for it sure. And I agree with your position in and of itself, but the captain tag is what the playing group, board, members and fans might be concerned about as to culture, loyalty, fairness (etc). If he wen't over (I'd pick Port myself), and that would need to look a first rounder (17) and Jon Butcher as a minimum. I just don't see it ever happening, so I don't disagree with you on the substantive issue, I just don't think it's probable, that's all.

[Webby]

If we were to trade Griffen, which I am dead against - who would actually get the footy for us and take the game on?

Liberatore is our only other consistent ball winner, and his output goes down when he's heavily tagged.

Griffen very rarely has a poor day like he did on Sunday.

No point having Cameron with no one being able to get the footy to him.


Hence why my prefrence is first and formost an outside quick running player who has the ability to hit targets by foot and hand over any distance.

No one doubts it would clearly be a backward step in the shorter term. However the argument is it would be beneficial in the longer term. I think Macrae will continue to develop into an A grader. Stringer, Bontempelli, Smith, Hrovat, Dahlhaus, Libba, Wallis etc are all young midfielders and they'll all be in their prime in our next window.

Plus, if Griffen is traded, we could actually give Boyd one last year, rather than moving on a player who would otherwise have been bottleknecking our list. He'd then play a useful bridging role as a mature body in the mix. With Griff et al, he'll be a list clogger next year.

[Sedat]

The Sherman trade was a perfect example of short sightedness winning over patience. (I feel justified in saying this as I called it as such at the time to any mate that would listen)
Giving up a priority pick for an average mature age player was part of the reason that our list now has a hole in it for 24+ year olds.

Let me state for the public record that I also HATED this trade from day 1. He was a player that had one good season out of 7 at the time we traded for him and he was a perennially terrible decision-maker with ball in hand. I think we've forgotten how good Harbrow was at a very young age, and we've missed his run and dare out of half-back terribly since he left...and we effectively got nothing at all out of him leaving.

Goes without saying that we miss Ward as well but at least his departure gave us a fantastic silver lining in Jack Macrae.

[G-Mo77]

Let me state for the public record........

That I was actually pleased with the trade. :p

Yes it's a shock because as most of you know I was his biggest fan. I thought he had the line breaking ability that we needed and was a good age to work with. How wrong was I! I really didn't understand the value of those picks and clearly did not know much about Sherman. We made a huge blunder.

[Hot_Doggies]

Interesting in a thread called 'pack your bags McCartney' people are talking about trading our best player.

Not happy with a slow rebuild on one hand but would like to sell a club champ and bottom out further....

[Webby]

Interesting in a thread called 'pack your bags McCartney' people are talking about trading our best player.

Not happy with a slow rebuild on one hand but would like to sell a club champ and bottom out further....

I think you're mashing many people's differing thoughts into one here. I'm the one putting the Griffen trade out there and my stance is, and always has been, that this rebuild will take many years.

I'm resigned to that and prepared to be patient. I also think that our performances are about where I expected them to be. Beyond that, I think think that, as Griffen is almost 28, it'd be beneficial to both he and the club's longer term prospects, to trade him to a club who will be contending over the next three years.

[DISHLICKERS]

That's a possibility, but if that is the case then we have been spectacularly unsuccessful in improving these other areas (presumably you're talking about run and spread, and transition of ball from defence to attack).

By contrast, we focused on contested ball and winning clearances from the start of BMac's tenure and we were very successful at improving our numbers in this area from day one. Now these areas have gone backwards significantly in 2014 and we have not improved any other areas of the game plan to compensate. It is a concern IMO - we appear to be a one-trick pony, and this one trick has already appeared to be counter-attacked and overcome by the opposition coaches.

And our drafting during the BMac years from 2011 until now has not come close to addressing our obvious pace and outside run deficiencies in the midfield, so this area of concern will not improve organically within our current list at all. Yes we need a contested marking power forward monster, but we need so much more, and we haven't really been effective in the last 3 years in addressing any of our other areas of weakness through the draft or trades.

The fact we have gone backwards in contested football this year and have not improved in other areas is my biggest concern at the moment. It is also my biggest question mark on the coach.

I see effort in the players I have no doubt they are trying and intensity is there BUT I dont see cohesion in the side at all. Seems players lack direction.

[bornadog]

I think you're mashing many people's differing thoughts into one here. I'm the one putting the Griffen trade out there and my stance is, and always has been, that this rebuild will take many years.

I'm resigned to that and prepared to be patient. I also think that our performances are about where I expected them to be. Beyond that, I think think that, as Griffen is almost 28, it'd be beneficial to both he and the club's longer term prospects, to trade him to a club who will be contending over the next three years.

What you are forgetting is by the time we are challenging we need a couple of mature players around 28, 29 30 on the list. Who will they be?

[whythelongface]

What you are forgetting is by the time we are challenging we need a couple of mature players around 28, 29 30 on the list. Who will they be?

Libba; MaCrae; Stringer; Bonts et al :)

[Webby]

What you are forgetting is by the time we are challenging we need a couple of mature players around 28, 29 30 on the list. Who will they be?

Higgins will be 30-33, Crameri will be 29-32, Grant and Wood will be 28-31, Roughead and Jones will be 27-30.

Griffen will be 31-34. Dare I say retired by 32. Thus the point I raise to take a hard decision and trade him for a player who could be a genuine contributor for the whole of that next window.

My take is that we're here to win a premiership, not finish 9th rather than 12th or whatever.

[Scorlibo]

Higgins will be 30-33, Crameri will be 29-32, Grant and Wood will be 28-31, Roughead and Jones will be 27-30.

Griffen will be 31-34. Dare I say retired by 32. Thus the point I raise to take a hard decision and trade him for a player who could be a genuine contributor for the whole of that next window.

My take is that we're here to win a premiership, not finish 9th rather than 12th or whatever.

And how about all the young players who lose their will to play for a club which trades them away like prized pigs? How old will they be Webby? The answer is: it doesn't matter. The togetherness of the club and its players is number one at all times, it has to be.

[Greystache]

And how about all the young players who lose their will to play for a club which trades them away like prized pigs? How old will they be Webby? The answer is: it doesn't matter. The togetherness of the club and its players is number one at all times, it has to be.

Like the way our most highly regarded 2 kids couldn't sign quickly enough when expansion teams came knocking on the door with big money, you mean that togetherness?

We've hung onto veterans longer than any other club and how shown loyalty to the point of pain, yet we were the only club to lose 2 talented young players to expansion.

[jeemak]

That's a possibility, but if that is the case then we have been spectacularly unsuccessful in improving these other areas (presumably you're talking about run and spread, and transition of ball from defence to attack).

By contrast, we focused on contested ball and winning clearances from the start of BMac's tenure and we were very successful at improving our numbers in this area from day one. Now these areas have gone backwards significantly in 2014 and we have not improved any other areas of the game plan to compensate. It is a concern IMO - we appear to be a one-trick pony, and this one trick has already appeared to be counter-attacked and overcome by the opposition coaches.

And our drafting during the BMac years from 2011 until now has not come close to addressing our obvious pace and outside run deficiencies in the midfield, so this area of concern will not improve organically within our current list at all. Yes we need a contested marking power forward monster, but we need so much more, and we haven't really been effective in the last 3 years in addressing any of our other areas of weakness through the draft or trades.


The fact we have gone backwards in contested football this year and have not improved in other areas is my biggest concern at the moment. It is also my biggest question mark on the coach.

I see effort in the players I have no doubt they are trying and intensity is there BUT I dont see cohesion in the side at all. Seems players lack direction.

We average 12 less contested possessions this year per game. In 2013 we averaged 149 (2nd) per game, this year 137 (11th). The competition average in 139 (last year it was 140).

I'm not sure what you call significant. Perhaps a drop of 3 per quarter is material, perhaps it's not. It could represent a slight change in focus or a shift in player attitude.

I think the cattle we have at our disposal is a huge issue, and is hampering our ability to improve our ball movement at the rate we all want. Not having either of Jones or Campbell playing good contributing footy, and Grant injured hasn't helped with our structure and we desperately need straightening up.

Perhaps all of the coaches are out of their depth, or their message isn't cutting through and a different approach is required. Maybe our players are not very clever and take longer to learn than we realise.

I think the next few weeks with an improved forward structure will be quite telling.

[DISHLICKERS]

We average 12 less contested possessions this year per game. In 2013 we averaged 149 (2nd) per game, this year 137 (11th). The competition average in 139 (last year it was 140).

I'm not sure what you call significant. Perhaps a drop of 3 per quarter is material, perhaps it's not. It could represent a slight change in focus or a shift in player attitude.

I think the cattle we have at our disposal is a huge issue, and is hampering our ability to improve our ball movement at the rate we all want. Not having either of Jones or Campbell playing good contributing footy, and Grant injured hasn't helped with our structure and we desperately need straightening up.

Perhaps all of the coaches are out of their depth, or their message isn't cutting through and a different approach is required. Maybe our players are not very clever and take longer to learn than we realise.

I think the next few weeks with an improved forward structure will be quite telling.

I tend to think that opposition sides have worked us out to an extent and have negated our game of stoppage after stoppage hence a fall in contensted possession as there have been less stoppages. Once the opposition achieve this they have been able to break the game open and we have sufferred and not dealt with it well at all.

[Webby]

And how about all the young players who lose their will to play for a club which trades them away like prized pigs? How old will they be Webby? The answer is: it doesn't matter. The togetherness of the club and its players is number one at all times, it has to be.

Similarly to the way they reacted when we sold Templeton like a 'prized pig'. Quite well.
Seriously mate, do you think if Griffen were offered an opportunity to join a stronger list in his home town on the same coin with a crack at a premiership over the next three years, he wouldn't be willing to look at it?

As Tony McGuinness, Kim Koster & Murray Rance will testify, sometimes players actually want to move home. We get a bit emotive about this kind of discussion. This notion that everyone's desperate to stay is misplaced. If the move is mutually beneficial, it actually bodes well for player morale as it's clear the club doesn't trap players into staying in a place where their ambitions can't be met.

If Griffen want to be a premiership player, he needs to leave because we're highly unlikely to be able to provide him with that opportunity in the 3-4 years he has left.

[Remi Moses]

It's a good healthy debate, but it won't happen.
The only memory I have of Sherman is running to quickly and having no poise.
Then promptly booting it on the full.

[Scorlibo]

Like the way our most highly regarded 2 kids couldn't sign quickly enough when expansion teams came knocking on the door with big money, you mean that togetherness?

We've hung onto veterans longer than any other club and how shown loyalty to the point of pain, yet we were the only club to lose 2 talented young players to expansion.

So you want to punish loyal players for the sins of disloyal ones?

As you've outlined, we're already an undesirable club to be at, players have left even in recent years for more coin when given the opportunity. But to embrace that? To say, 'if you play for us, and you're any good, we're willing to sell you for the right price', makes us just a cattle farm and nothing more.


Similarly to the way they reacted when we sold Templeton like a 'prized pig'. Quite well.
Seriously mate, do you think if Griffen were offered an opportunity to join a stronger list in his home town on the same coin with a crack at a premiership over the next three years, he wouldn't be willing to look at it?

As Tony McGuinness, Kim Koster & Murray Rance will testify, sometimes players actually want to move home. We get a bit emotive about this kind of discussion. This notion that everyone's desperate to stay is misplaced. If the move is mutually beneficial, it actually bodes well for player morale as it's clear the club doesn't trap players into staying in a place where their ambitions can't be met.

If Griffen want to be a premiership player, he needs to leave because we're highly unlikely to be able to provide him with that opportunity in the 3-4 years he has left.

I'm not saying everyone's desperate to stay - but we should be creating an environment where they are. It's a fundamental difference in outlook really, a question of whether you see the team's value as the sum of its parts. I don't. For me, the team is founded on joint values, a collective drive, and not on having good players in every position.

[Topdog]

Yes great idea. We won't worry about the fact that he has been quoted as saying how much he loves the Club, is our recently appointed captain and that he doesn't want to go anywhere. Let's get rid of Griff. Who cares about sentiment and loyalty. It's business and we want to win anyway we can.:mad:

I started giving up on that when Harbrow left and Ward going just furthered it.

[1eyedog]

And how about all the young players who lose their will to play for a club which trades them away like prized pigs? How old will they be Webby? The answer is: it doesn't matter. The togetherness of the club and its players is number one at all times, it has to be.

Yep the club comes first but its the players who make it a good place to be. If we trade Griffen we may land Cameron but will he really be worth the heartache of axing your captain, best player, friend, kids hero and heart and soul of the club, because that is what Griffen is now. So in these deliberations I think we need to think long and hard about the outlay which is in my mind tearing a hole in the fabric of the club versus the return (e.g. Cameron). Further, what if we do this and we still don't get Cameron which is highly possible. What then for Griffen and the club? I agree that it will take a Griffen to get a Cameron but I'm not at all sure whether it would be worth it when you weigh up how committed Griffen has been to us.


Like the way our most highly regarded 2 kids couldn't sign quickly enough when expansion teams came knocking on the door with big money, you mean that togetherness?

We've hung onto veterans longer than any other club and how shown loyalty to the point of pain, yet we were the only club to lose 2 talented young players to expansion.

Griffen and Cooney turned down offers to return to Adelaide a number of years ago.


Similarly to the way they reacted when we sold Templeton like a 'prized pig'. Quite well.
Seriously mate, do you think if Griffen were offered an opportunity to join a stronger list in his home town on the same coin with a crack at a premiership over the next three years, he wouldn't be willing to look at it?

As Tony McGuinness, Kim Koster & Murray Rance will testify, sometimes players actually want to move home. We get a bit emotive about this kind of discussion. This notion that everyone's desperate to stay is misplaced. If the move is mutually beneficial, it actually bodes well for player morale as it's clear the club doesn't trap players into staying in a place where their ambitions can't be met.

If Griffen want to be a premiership player, he needs to leave because we're highly unlikely to be able to provide him with that opportunity in the 3-4 years he has left.

I seriously doubt it. He was offered big coin to return to Adelaide as a 23-24 year old with Adelaide as a potential top 4 side (they finished 4th or 5th I think) and he also had a sick Dad in Adelaide as well and he re-signed with the Bulldogs. There was a bit of media around it. I would be shocked if he accepted an offer at the same price point to be honest given what I have seen of Griffen the person since we drafted him into the club. He's had numerous chances to move on.

[Topdog]

I'm not saying everyone's desperate to stay - but we should be creating an environment where they are. It's a fundamental difference in outlook really, a question of whether you see the team's value as the sum of its parts. I don't. For me, the team is founded on joint values, a collective drive, and not on having good players in every position.

Every other sport in the World has players coming and going non stop, it really doesn't affect their ability to compete. Why do we in Australia think we are so different?

Hawks losing Buddy will be great for them long term, great for him and great for Sydney. Players leave, its no biggy

[bornadog]

Every other sport in the World has players coming and going non stop, it really doesn't affect their ability to compete. Why do we in Australia think we are so different?

Hawks losing Buddy will be great for them long term, great for him and great for Sydney. Players leave, its no biggy

When you don't have many good ones like Griffen, you do care

[Webby]

So you want to punish loyal players for the sins of disloyal ones?

Hmmm. Just as we punished Brian Lake. The whole industry must view us as a pack of real bastards!
My point is, looking after a long serving player with a mutually beneficial trade is hardly disloyal nor is it 'punishment'.

It happens all the time in other sports. Sports that have been fully professional for more than just 20 years. We need to adapt quicker than we have in the past. It's not a social club, it's a profession. This team chemistry stuff is complete bunkum. Don Scott and Leigh Matthews despised each other, Roy Kean and Peter Schmeichel couldn't stand each other. This image that players need to all hold hands and sing Kumbaya is nonsensical.

[Bulldog4life]

Hmmm. Just as we punished Brian Lake. The whole industry must view us as a pack of real bastards!
My point is, looking after a long serving player with a mutually beneficial trade is hardly disloyal nor is it 'punishment'.

It happens all the time in other sports. Sports that have been fully professional for more than just 20 years. We need to adapt quicker than we have in the past. It's not a social club, it's a profession. This team chemistry stuff is complete bunkum. Don Scott and Leigh Matthews despised each other, Roy Kean and Peter Schmeichel couldn't stand each other. This image that players need to all hold hands and sing Kumbaya is nonsensical.

Brian Lake wanted out. All I have read about Ryan is that he loves the Club and wants to be a one Club player.

[GVGjr]

We can't trade Griffen unless he expresses a desire to play elsewhere. If he were to do that we should do what we can to get a great deal.

I can't imagine that he would want to go but at the moment any player wanting to leave I'd consider trading for draft picks or younger emerging players currently at other clubs.

[Webby]

Brian Lake wanted out. All I have read about Ryan is that he loves the Club and wants to be a one Club player.

Do you often hear players saying they hate their club and want to be a three club player?
The "love the club" speel is as cliche as "one week at a time" and "happy to get the four points."

I think it dawned on Lake and the club that we were in at least a 4 year rebuild. With 2 years left on his body clock, the trade made sense for both parties. I think if Griffen and the club had an honest chat, they'd realise that they're in a similar space to Lake...

It's not like you hear a player's desire to leave telegraphed months out every time. Things can move quickly upon post season discussions.

[1eyedog]

Brian Lake wanted out. All I have read about Ryan is that he loves the Club and wants to be a one Club player.

Exactly and he deserves that. We clearly need to treat potential trades on a player by player basis rather than under a general template. Ryan Griffen is Ryan Griffen not Callum Ward or Brian Lake.

[Webby]

Ryan Griffen is Ryan Griffen not Callum Ward or Brian Lake.

Careful, BAD & co will nail you for spelling errors... They're on the hunt!

[1eyedog]

Careful, BAD & co will nail you for spelling errors... They're on the hunt!

I knew it looked bad when I was writing it. Not good from someone who has pulled others up for Ryan Hargraves:o

[Webby]

I knew it looked bad when I was writing it. Not good from someone who has pulled others up for Ryan Hargraves:o

It's funny you mention that, I always struggled to not call Jock Edmond "Jim Edmonds"... For years I could never work out why, but just earlier this week Mike Brearley was interviewed by Rodney Hogg on SEN and they spoke about English Test spinner, Phil Edmonds - whose Test career overlapped Jock's entire FFC career. He toured about four times with the Poms.

That was a 25 year riddle solved. It was a similar thing with soccer player, Owen Hargreaves debuting for England around the same year in which Ryan Hargrave debuted for us. I actually saw him play live at Old Trafford against Man United in '01-'02. He marked Ryan Giggs out of the game and left quite an impression. The brain does play tricks.

I reckon we should go a bit easy on spelling. No one's claiming Shakespearian tendencies and it is, after all, a footy forum. Most of the time we know what people mean despite a few grammatical flaws!

As Hafey would say, none of this finnessin'.

[Twodogs]

He should change his surname to Edmonds. Even Lou and Jack called him Edmonds on WOS.

[Twodogs]

It's pretty funny to think that back then Melbourne's entire TV media consisted of half a dozen old blokes getting pissed on Sunday morning on live TV.

[bulldogtragic]

It's pretty funny to think that back then Melbourne's entire TV media consisted of half a dozen old blokes getting pissed on Sunday morning on live TV.

Made for good TV too, it might be that the new Sunday shows are great when we win, but being most of the time we haven't played by 4pm Sunday I find them dead set boring and the personalities fake and un interesting.

[Webby]

Made for good TV too, it might be that the new Sunday shows are great when we win, but being most of the time we haven't played by 4pm Sunday I find them dead set boring and the personalities fake and un interesting.

By the time I've listened to a 3AW game on a Friday or Sat arvo and a Ch7 game on a Sat night, the last thing I need to see is Brian Taylor on Sunday morning!

With old Louie, you'd get barely 10 minutes of him on a Saturday night replay. Ditto the rest of them. Footy saturation is one thing, but less is more with a number of these "characters" who are front and centre with the coverage..

[bulldogtragic]

By the time I've listened to a 3AW game on a Friday or Sat arvo and a Ch7 game on a Sat night, the last thing I need to see is Brian Taylor on Sunday morning!

With old Louie, you'd get barely 10 minutes of him on a Saturday night replay. Ditto the rest of them. Footy saturation is one thing, but less is more with a number of these "characters" who are front and centre with the coverage..

I just remember as a kid Teddy Whitten being larger than life and being drawn to him and his antics. The guys I look back to such as Teddy, Lou etc, just had a je ne sais quoi which modern 'personalities' think is stupid catchphrases, raising voices and/or blokey BS. But without 'it', it's just annoying.

[Scorlibo]

Hmmm. Just as we punished Brian Lake. The whole industry must view us as a pack of real bastards!
My point is, looking after a long serving player with a mutually beneficial trade is hardly disloyal nor is it 'punishment'.

It happens all the time in other sports. Sports that have been fully professional for more than just 20 years. We need to adapt quicker than we have in the past. It's not a social club, it's a profession. This team chemistry stuff is complete bunkum. Don Scott and Leigh Matthews despised each other, Roy Kean and Peter Schmeichel couldn't stand each other. This image that players need to all hold hands and sing Kumbaya is nonsensical.

You know as well as I that the Brian Lake scenario was completely different to the one you're proposing with Ryan Griffen. Griff is the captain, the soul of the club, happy to be that way, yet you want to rip him away.

The appeal for players to stay at one club in spite of lucrative contracts is what makes our professional sport better than others. To cite other professional sports around the world as being something to aspire to is completely lost on me, Webby. For me, in football as in life, loyalty is a virtue.

If you don't get tingles watching Rohan Smith and Scott West talk about Brad Johnson at his HOF induction, or smile reading Bob Murphy's articles, then fine. But please don't think that it's not the most joyous thing about football for some others.

[Twodogs]

Made for good TV too, it might be that the new Sunday shows are great when we win, but being most of the time we haven't played by 4pm Sunday I find them dead set boring and the personalities fake and un interesting.

It was mostly great TV sometimes bordering on unbelievably good. A Funny, insightful and knowledgable footy panel that always finished with an all in argument. It rang rings around he current rubbish. Those old blokes knew more about football in their little fingers than the boorish, injoking, blokey presenters they have now.

[Webby]

If you don't get tingles watching Rohan Smith and Scott West talk about Brad Johnson at his HOF induction, or smile reading Bob Murphy's articles, then fine. But please don't think that it's not the most joyous thing about football for some others.

Tingles and joy are all well and good, but I'd contend the joy of watching your team running around the MCG with the cup well and truly has Wednesday night covered.

I'm sure there were many Richmond fans with similar 'tingles' watching reflections on Richo's career. However I'm pretty sure they'd swap those in a second to have seen a premiership in the past 15 years.

I'm not saying trading Griffen would be the absolute correct thing to do. I'm just saying that if a mutually beneficial scenario presented itself, we should absolutely look at it and not be caught up in sentimentality. Reason being, Ryan Griffen, unfortunately, has Buckley's & none chance of playing in a flag with the Bulldogs. If we're fair dinkum about winning one in the next 10-20 years, then these are the kind of decisions we need to be open to.

Because every club has their old favourites, but, unfortunately a few have conspicuously little in the trophy cabinet. "Ruthless" is not a word that springs to mind when one thinks of the WBFC. Neither is "successful"... I'm just trying to encourage the club to push its ruthlessness a bit harder. I realise I'm just Joe Bloggs, but it makes me feel a bit better to at least express it.

[Topdog]

Well said webby. I'm also not saying "yeah let's get rid of him" but I think we need to be open to all possibilities, especially when we have been shafted by the AFL (Ward and Harbrow deals) and ourselves (Lake deal) in recent times.

[SlimPickens]

Well said webby. I'm also not saying "yeah let's get rid of him" but I think we need to be open to all possibilities, especially when we have been shafted by the AFL (Ward and Harbrow deals) and ourselves (Lake deal) in recent times.

Why do you think we were shafted with the Lake deal?

[G-Mo77]

Why do you think we were shafted with the Lake deal?

I don't think we got shafted. Could we have squeezed more out of it? Yeah I think we could have if we tried. Anyway it's been done to death. I'm happy with Hrovat.

[Scorlibo]

Tingles and joy are all well and good, but I'd contend the joy of watching your team running around the MCG with the cup well and truly has Wednesday night covered.

I'm sure there were many Richmond fans with similar 'tingles' watching reflections on Richo's career. However I'm pretty sure they'd swap those in a second to have seen a premiership in the past 15 years.

I'm not saying trading Griffen would be the absolute correct thing to do. I'm just saying that if a mutually beneficial scenario presented itself, we should absolutely look at it and not be caught up in sentimentality. Reason being, Ryan Griffen, unfortunately, has Buckley's & none chance of playing in a flag with the Bulldogs. If we're fair dinkum about winning one in the next 10-20 years, then these are the kind of decisions we need to be open to.

Because every club has their old favourites, but, unfortunately a few have conspicuously little in the trophy cabinet. "Ruthless" is not a word that springs to mind when one thinks of the WBFC. Neither is "successful"... I'm just trying to encourage the club to push its ruthlessness a bit harder. I realise I'm just Joe Bloggs, but it makes me feel a bit better to at least express it.

You make it sound as though it's black and white - we are either ruthless in culling our club champions and being very successful, or we treat them well and loyally and flounder down the bottom of the ladder. I don't see it this way at all, and I'm also not so quick to dismiss the possibility of us being around the mark while Griff is still going. Every young side needs experienced players, they set the direction of the group, they set the standards to which every young player must aspire to meet. Now sure, there's always a balance that is required between playing kids and playing the older brigade in a rebuild. So we tell Daniel Cross that his services are no longer required. We think that having Boyd, Murphy and Morris is enough for the regularly-playing veterans. Cooney, Griffen and Minson are the next age bracket down. And what happens when the aforementioned three veterans retire (most likely at the end of next year)? I'd wager the Coondog's time might be up then too. And you've traded away Griffen. It's just big Minno left! And Liam Picken, I suppose. Would they be the only players to have played in a final? The only players able to go around to the boys when that time comes, have a word in their ear. Ryan Griffen is an important leader for us to keep on board as we rise up the ladder.

If you want evidence of where ruthless list shaping gets you, look no further than Brisbane circa 2009. Michael Voss comes in, gets 4-5 outside players on board, including Fevola, trades Bradshaw and Henderson away. All of a sudden, that's a bought playing group, and not surprisingly, they play with no passion. They become a basket case for the next 5 years. Their prized kids leave because well - who's telling them to stay? Where's the precedent of the club being loyal, honest and successful? It's a disaster.

I don't want that, we should be building steadily and without taking risks which jeopardise (in my opinion) the fabric of the club. You've said that you are just talking about taking the right opportunity when it comes along. Fair enough, but what kind of opportunity just presents itself with a club captain? That trade only comes to be after we initiate interest, get in Griff's ear, and so on. No thanks.

Lastly, don't think for one second that free agency and the age of ruthlessness bodes well for our club. Not while equalisation continues to be squashed in the womb. When the time comes to play battleships, we lose - every time. Every successful club needs a strong culture, but us especially. If we don't have a strong culture, we don't have anything.

[Scorlibo]

I don't think we got shafted. Could we have squeezed more out of it? Yeah I think we could have if we tried. Anyway it's been done to death. I'm happy with Hrovat.

Stevens, you mean.

[jeemak]

We secured Hrovat with Pick 21, the pick we received for Lake (along with 41). Stevens was traded for pick 44.

[bornadog]

Drafting good young kids is the way to go. Not getting rid of young champions

[SlimPickens]

I don't think we got shafted. Could we have squeezed more out of it? Yeah I think we could have if we tried. Anyway it's been done to death. I'm happy with Hrovat.

I know it's been done to death, just thought it was an odd statement to say we got shafted.

[Webby]

You make it sound as though it's black and white

Perhaps you're choosing to interpret my point in a black and white manner.

All I’m doing is trying to challenge the notion that trades are evil and that every traded player in world sport leaves their club kicking and screaming.

I’m trying to question what I interpret as our (quite noble, but misplaced) hysterical loyalty to what are essentially paid employees of a professional organisation.

I also want to push the club to take a couple of difficult options, because I think the easy option is to just keep beloved players and plod along.

If Griffen were shunted off to St Kilda or Brisbane, I’d say that we had done the wrong thing. However trading him to a club in a premiership window (if they were willing to give us a late first round pick) would potentially be beneficial to all parties.
The scenario would be an amicable farewell with Griffen thanking the club, fans and teammates for their support and looking forward to the final chapter of his career – three years in which to have three cracks at a flag.
No ex-teammates would be thinking “Gee, what a pack of b@stards the Dogs’ management are!” In fact, I think it would be quite the opposite.

We, on the other hand, would then have three early picks and begin to really put together a strong, balanced list which is primed to peak around 2018-22. (When Griffen is right in the retirement bracket)
On the point about leaders and leadership, who better to watch, listen and learn off for our draftees over the next couple of years than Tom Liberatore, Luke Dahlhaus & Jack Macrae? I’d argue that Griffen’s already influenced those guys and it might just be an opportune time to pass the torch.

I didn’t expect many people to agree with me on this one. I've braced myself for plenty of flack. My only aim is to try to open up a few minds to some possibilities.

[bulldogtragic]

Teams to have recently dominated in trades in:

Sydney: Jason Ball, Paul Williams, Darren Jolly, Barry Hall, Nick Davis, Peter Everitt, Marty Mattner, Richards, Shaw, A Everitt, Malchesovski ((Cant spell it)), Bradshaw, McGlyn, Kennedy, Mumford, Seaby, Mitch Morton, Buddy*

Geelong: Cameron Mooney, Tom Harley, Brad Ottens, Josh Caddy, Rivers*, McIntosh*

Hawthorn: Peter Everitt, Danny Jacobs, Stew Dew, Josh Gibson, Brian Lake, Burgoyne, Hale, Cheney, Gunston, Simpkin,


And they got very good prices on the players they traded out.

Western Bulldogs:

Akermanis, Baird, Morgan, Barry Hall, DJ, Sherman, Vezpremi, Callan, Bartlett, Eagleton, Wills, Ben Harrison, Bandy, Koops, Street, Veale/Rawlings , Macdougall, Ben Hudson, Brodie Moles, Ed Barlow, Darley, Tom Young, Crameri.

And we got bugger all for most trades, Josh Hill, Everitt, Veale/Rawlings, Bowden, Power, Addison*, Cross*


This snap shot tells me if you trade well, you can dominate the competition. Perhaps it's not trading that is bad per se, but that we might not have been the best in. As to Webby's endeavour to open up conversation on trading and naming a few names, it might be that trading in and of itself is shyed away from as our experiences as members being burned more than we clearly won. But trading seems to be part of the things we need to do to win this bloody premiership, and it needs to be better and done completely right. If any offer is so good to refuse then we need to hope the new team led by JMac is better than all our past off field teams combined in accepting any trades. If Dennis Pagan was open to trading Wayne Carey for 6 first round picks, surely we can discuss and even consider a monster trade. Personally, I think I've lost any confidence in trading in any way (in/out) because we seem to get it wrong virtually all of the time, but I will believe again this year as see where hope gets me.

[Topdog]

If you want evidence of where ruthless list shaping gets you, look no further than Brisbane circa 2009. Michael Voss comes in, gets 4-5 outside players on board, including Fevola, trades Bradshaw and Henderson away. All of a sudden, that's a bought playing group, and not surprisingly, they play with no passion. They become a basket case for the next 5 years. Their prized kids leave because well - who's telling them to stay? Where's the precedent of the club being loyal, honest and successful? It's a disaster. .

Wait a second. That wasn't ruthless, it was stupid. And they still had a heap of veterans around. You have completely misused every part of that fiasco to make it sound like trading is bad.

[bulldogtragic]

Wait a second. That wasn't ruthless, it was stupid. And they still had a heap of veterans around. You have completely misused every part of that fiasco to make it sound like trading is bad.

Power and Black were still playing quite well. Brown was dominating. Bradshaw walked out and Johnstone needed a new club in brisbane. Staker was a good get, but did his knee twice. The Fevola trade might have worked if he pulled his head in like other big forward in the past have done. That's stupidity not ruthlessness. During this they drafted kids like Luenberger, Hanley and Rich. If i loved my coach the way the players talked about Voss, and saw him exited and my CEO talking about which candidates he'd like when Voss was sitting right next to him, i'd quit too. The decision on Voss was boarderline poor, it was handled very poor and the press conference was an out and out disgrace and if we did that to say Brad Johnson as a head coach, i'd consider cutting up my membership. He was a club legend and the CEO talked about replacing him in front of him and named names he's prefer. That kind of attack on club loyalty was the reason for the departure IMO, not any trades they made over the last 10 years.

[Scorlibo]

We secured Hrovat with Pick 21, the pick we received for Lake (along with 41). Stevens was traded for pick 44.

We received 41 for Lake, and on-traded it for Stevens (whether it was exactly the same pick... it doesn't matter). The steak knives were an upgrade from pick 27 to 21. We may still have got Hrovat with pick 27, or at least another good kid. I will continue to police this point until posters stop saying "happy with Hrovat!" - we didn't get Hrovat for Lake.


Perhaps you're choosing to interpret my point in a black and white manner.

All I’m doing is trying to challenge the notion that trades are evil and that every traded player in world sport leaves their club kicking and screaming.

That's not a notion I'm trying to perpetuate. But there's a difference between 'every traded player in world sport' and the skipper of our club.


Wait a second. That wasn't ruthless, it was stupid. And they still had a heap of veterans around. You have completely misused every part of that fiasco to make it sound like trading is bad.

No I haven't. They made a huge number of trades, completely altered the structure of the playing group. If it was up to some posters here, the same thing would happen at the Doggies. I'm saying, you can't be so ruthless as to treat players (and even draft picks) like pieces on a chess board. Call it whatever you want - ruthless, stupid, brash, headstrong.


Power and Black were still playing quite well. Brown was dominating. Bradshaw walked out and Johnstone needed a new club in brisbane. Staker was a good get, but did his knee twice. The Fevola trade might have worked if he pulled his head in like other big forward in the past have done. That's stupidity not ruthlessness. During this they drafted kids like Luenberger, Hanley and Rich. If i loved my coach the way the players talked about Voss, and saw him exited and my CEO talking about which candidates he'd like when Voss was sitting right next to him, i'd quit too. The decision on Voss was boarderline poor, it was handled very poor and the press conference was an out and out disgrace and if we did that to say Brad Johnson as a head coach, i'd consider cutting up my membership. He was a club legend and the CEO talked about replacing him in front of him and named names he's prefer. That kind of attack on club loyalty was the reason for the departure IMO, not any trades they made over the last 10 years.

You would have kept Voss on? You might have a point in how he was treated but wow, he ruined the club when he first came in, spent a number of years learning from his mistakes and then had kids falling out the door trying to get out last year.

[Webby]

Just for the record, I'm pro-drafting kids in our current situation - not trading older players in. At least 9 times out of 10, anyway. My philosophy is to try to exit older players who aren't going to align to a window (yet have trade value) and replace them with quality younger players who are. This could mean a pick swap for an exceptional younger player who fits a need. (The one thing I'd tend to trade for, or take on as a free agent, is a ruckman. I believe that the time it takes to develop your own ruckman is prohibitive.) I thought Hudson was a perfect example of a good pick up, there. This applies only to ruckmen, however.

The Voss/Brisbane scenario was quite different to this. They traded away a promising young defender for a notoriously ill-disciplined and erratic older player. This was because Voss firstly badly misread his list and, secondly, drafted a lunatic.

So using Voss's debacle to make a case against trading is akin to saying that water is a bad thing because people have drowned in it.

The other cautionary tale that is made is Melbourne and their "going too young" example. However i'd put it out there that Melbourne's real problem was being in a rebuild during a compromised draft era. That and panic setting in amongst some weak administration. I think our club is better than that. The 2014 draft is completely uncompromised for the first time in years. What's more is that it's high quality and it's tall. This could be the year to load up on picks.

[Scorlibo]

The Voss/Brisbane scenario was quite different to this. They traded away a promising young defender for a notoriously ill-disciplined and erratic older player. This was because Voss firstly badly misread his list and, secondly, drafted a lunatic.

So using Voss's debacle to make a case against trading is akin to saying that water is a bad thing because people have drowned in it.

The other cautionary tale that is made is Melbourne and their "going too young" example. However i'd put it out there that Melbourne's real problem was being in a rebuild during a compromised draft era. That and panic setting in amongst some weak administration. I think our club is better than that. The 2014 draft is completely uncompromised for the first time in years. What's more is that it's high quality and it's tall. This could be the year to load up on picks.

They were in the midst of a rebuild before GWS and Gold Coast came through. But you're right to direct me to Melbourne and not Brisbane - Melbourne are a far better comparison to what you're proposing. They were wrong to think that Jack Grimes and Jack Trengove could shoulder the captaincy role, neither of those guys had finished developing. Without older players around them, they had no next step, no precedent.

'akin to saying that water is a bad thing because people have drowned in it'.

Hilarious, but incorrect. You think I'm saying that trading is bad - full stop. That's not true, all I'm saying is that in the past, when clubs have elected to trade without consideration for club stability and culture, it has gone awry. This isn't the IPL. Making wholesale changes 'Moneyball' style doesn't work. And a better phrase would be:

'not teaching kids to swim is bad because they might drown'.

[Webby]

Appointing Grimes and Trengove co-captains ahead of Jones was madness, granted. However Melbourne were also poorly coached.

I had a bet on with a mate on how long it'd take for the term 'Moneyball' to be dropped...... Seriously, that reference is made every time someone raises a single trade. It's borderline hysterical.

[Before I Die]

Tingles and joy are all well and good, but I'd contend the joy of watching your team running around the MCG with the cup well and truly has Wednesday night covered.


I know I will get shot down, but no, for me it wouldn't. As a player it might be true. However, my joy as a Dogs supporter comes from the hundreds and hundreds of games I have watched and the players I have supported and cheered for. A premiership would be nice, but I wouldn't swap Brad Johnson's career for one. I also doubt if Brad would trade his career for Nathan Ablett's career. I want a premiership, but I also think they are over-rated.

[Topdog]

Winning is overrated. That is something I never thought I would hear that about sport.

[Remi Moses]

I know I will get shot down, but no, for me it wouldn't. As a player it might be true. However, my joy as a Dogs supporter comes from the hundreds and hundreds of games I have watched and the players I have supported and cheered for. A premiership would be nice, but I wouldn't swap Brad Johnson's career for one. I also doubt if Brad would trade his career for Nathan Ablett's career. I want a premiership, but I also think they are over-rated.
You have to be joking .

[The bulldog tragician]

I know I will get shot down, but no, for me it wouldn't. As a player it might be true. However, my joy as a Dogs supporter comes from the hundreds and hundreds of games I have watched and the players I have supported and cheered for. A premiership would be nice, but I wouldn't swap Brad Johnson's career for one. I also doubt if Brad would trade his career for Nathan Ablett's career. I want a premiership, but I also think they are over-rated.

You have one person in your corner.

[bornadog]

You have one person in your corner.

I think he means, (I hope he means)its not just the premierships, but also all the games throughout the season and watching the champion players

[Webby]

I want a premiership, but I also think they are over-rated.

Then I congratulate you on your choice of club! :)

Seriously, there is merit in what you say, no doubt. I hear you. But I'd point out that trying to build just one premiership side is not going to remove any of our long history of good clubmen. A premiership would give such a boost to the western suburbs of Melbourne. It just kills me to think that we have a culture of being satisfied with being likeable nearly-men. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

For all the 'tingling' for Johnno on Wednesday, the "elephant in the room" was obvious. Johnno has clearly learnt to deal with the fact that he will never be a premiership player. He clearly has a lot to be proud of, but you can tell the one huge missing piece for him is the premiership medallion.

Whilst everyone else was 'tingling' I really felt a bit eaten up for the guy... And for all of us as a whole.

Maybe it says something about the bitterness of me as a person, but I really, really want to win a premiership and shove it right up John Elliott, Alistair Lynch, the Adelaide Crows and about 600,000 Essendon scum... And have the party of a lifetime!

That beats a 'tingling' for me!

[Remi Moses]

Nice to stick it to Dwayne to cool for school Russell, who refered the smaller clubs as "Dud Clubs"!
What a w**ker !!

[The bulldog tragician]

Johnno's career is both a triumph (his record number of games, his loyalty, his local boy made good story) and a tragedy (5 preliminary finals). That is why sport is so endlessly moving, fascinating and emotional.

If, for arguments sake next year all Hawthorn players donned our jumpers and won us a flag, would we feel the same as if we were there to see Bob Murphy walk up and get a medal after knowing how deep his love for us is? I think this is what Before I die is saying.

Of course we will need to trade and make hard decisions to win that flag including sometimes saying its time to well loved players. believe me I've been there for all that long wait and feel the pain of our failures just as much. I just think there has to be a balance and we keep our soul and heart in the process. Sorry if that's soppy, old fashioned and sentimental, but this isn't just a business, players aren't just 'employees'.

[Scorlibo]

I know I will get shot down, but no, for me it wouldn't. As a player it might be true. However, my joy as a Dogs supporter comes from the hundreds and hundreds of games I have watched and the players I have supported and cheered for. A premiership would be nice, but I wouldn't swap Brad Johnson's career for one. I also doubt if Brad would trade his career for Nathan Ablett's career. I want a premiership, but I also think they are over-rated.


Winning is overrated. That is something I never thought I would hear that about sport.


You have to be joking .

I think BID means to say that without heros of the club like Brad Johnson, and the feeling that we're all in this together, that there's such a thing as playing for the Bulldogs, and not for money, premierships don't mean much - and I agree.



I had a bet on with a mate on how long it'd take for the term 'Moneyball' to be dropped...... Seriously, that reference is made every time someone raises a single trade. It's borderline hysterical.

I resisted, believe me. I reckon it's usually used in the context of recycled player trades, whereas I'm using it in reference to drastically chopping and changing a playing list.


Whilst everyone else was 'tingling'...

That beats a 'tingling' for me!

At least give me credit for introducing your new favourite term.

[LostDoggy]

More than anything in sport I want to see a dogs premiership. All options should be considered with due respect.

If it came down to it, I would rather keep young Libba than griff. Our window does not seem close, we have gaping holes in our list.

I would rather keep them both and have a flag but we need a flag.

[LostDoggy]

Even just a little hope would be nice...

[Go_Dogs]

Some interesting, albeit rather long, contributions in this thread during the week - thanks to all those who've made the effort.

With respect to trading Griffen, I'm sure most can guess what my position is.

As with any trade of a long term player, it has to be a mutual thing - or at least, the player has to want it too. I've seen the Lake trade used as an example that was 'win/win'. The reality was, that Lake no longer wanted to play at the Dogs. He made it clear that he wanted a trade, and that it he didn't get one, he'd walk at the end of the next season and we'd receive nothing. He nominated Hawthorn as the club of his choice. Essentially, we were forced into a position where we had a long term, contracted player nominating a club and had a choice to oblige him, or keep him on when he didn't want to be there - which would've had potential to significantly disrupt the group. Like others, I'm of the view we could've held our ground a little longer in the trade and sought a bit more, but what's done is done.

Having a 'chat' to our captain and his management to try and coerce him into leaving for, what I've seen described as either a) Cameron, or b) a late first round pick, doesn't make much sense to me. He's a heart and soul player, you only needed to read some of Bob Murphy's articles last year, where he spoke about the will of Griff, and how inspirational it was seeing him work so hard. Macca announced the moment he arrived at the club how lucky he was to have a player like Griff on the list. He's a well liked team mate, the captain of the club, and our best player (although having a year not up to his lofty standards just yet, mainly due to injury).

Cameron would have no interest in coming to us. Not now. Maybe if we were entering our premiership window, we could entice someone like Cameron with the lure of being involved in a successful side, being the missing piece of the puzzle. We were able to entice (albeit aging) stars in Akermanis and Hall across during our last tilt, no small feat for us. The reality is, at the moment we don't have an excess of tradable players, those who have currency are ones we need to keep because the quality of our list isn't strong enough where we can trade from one area to top up another.

If we're talking about trading Griff for a late first round pick, then that is madness. Surely he would have more currency on the open market that a pick in the 15+ range? That's not something I'd entertain. At all.

With respect to Griff being there at our next tilt, whose to say he won't be? Yes he'll be 28 at the end of the year, but he could play for another 5 years - why not? He hasn't (touch wood) suffered a raft of soft tissue injuries, or shown any signs of age wearying him yet. In fact, he seems to have gotten better any year and basically just entered his prime. He may ultimately end up spending more time off a wing, or perhaps a back flank, or forward pocket, but he's such a strong, dynamic player that I think he's still got a relatively long shelf life.

Anyway....back onto the point of the thread.

Things can change quickly in football. I love that saying. I look at Port, and how they suffered for years whilst their young players like Boak, Gray, Hartlett found their feet in AFL football - they continued to stock up on talent through the draft, they made a couple of trades, in particular adding Schultz (who mind you, wasn't a world beater at the time, but is a player who looks a lot better in a good team, surrounded by good players) and have been able to attract a few more like Polec and White due to their rise up the ladder. Some may say it was simply a change in coach and fitness staff which has proved the difference, I'm sure it helped, no doubt, but it's also the continued improvement of their younger players, which wasn't always linear, and suddenly they have depth and talent the envy of the competition.

We're starting to build that, you look at our under 23 players, and there are some impressive names in that list. Tall players in Jones, Roughead, Campbell and Talia. Liberatore, Dahlhaus, Smith, Wallis, Macrae, Stringer, Hunter, Hrovat, Bontempelli, Stevens, JJ. There's some inconsistent players in that list no doubt, but there's also a lot of talent and I'm pretty confident that most of those guys, if not all of them, should be capable of playing 100-150+ games for our club. We'll add another couple of good ones this year, and we're starting to build that talent, that depth. We've still got a few areas to address with the type of personnel we select, but it can be addressed.

All of that being said, I'd love to see a good win tonight, and some improved team performance over the balance of the season.

[LostDoggy]

I wonder how many clubs would ship off their captain? I would think we would be seen as a joke of a club if we did so. There is universal respect for Griffen, which is why he is captain. It defies logic to take such a cornerstone of your club and say we don't need / want you any more.

In addition, we are in desperate need of players who can will themselves to change the game. He appears to be the only one with that capacity at this stage.

Griffen bleeds red, white and blue. He is the quintessential selfless player that I identify with in a football club. He is a leader and that is different to a Brian Lake who did not want to stay because he was asked to play in the forward line. Or a Crossy who we all loved but could see was nearing the end and for whom we needed to get younger talent playing his position. The young talent coming through need leadership role models for a few more years yet.

It would, for me, be a horrendous decision, that would tear at the fabric of our club. Despatching such a captain would show such low levels of loyalty that you would wonder why you would continue supporting such an organisation.

[LostDoggy]

Agree with all that G16, I'm a massive Griff fan too. However, should the right deal come along it should be considered.

[Topdog]

Wait, where did the late first round pick for Griff talk come in? I've never seen that mentioned. If Griff were to be traded for picks I'd be looking for a Judd style deal. And again this would all be after asking Griff if he is open to it.

[Go_Dogs]

However trading him to a club in a premiership window (if they were willing to give us a late first round pick) would potentially be beneficial to all parties.

The above post is what I was referring to.

[bornadog]

Agree with all that G16, I'm a massive Griff fan too. However, should the right deal come along it should be considered.
Strange statement you agree, but however you don't agree.

[Topdog]

The above post is what I was referring to.

that was for 3 years in the future though. Now he is 25 and another club gets 3-4 of his prime years as opposed to 1-2.

[Webby]

Wait, where did the late first round pick for Griff talk come in? I've never seen that mentioned. If Griff were to be traded for picks I'd be looking for a Judd style deal. And again this would all be after asking Griff if he is open to it.

This is the kind of unrealistic, biased reaction that I expect. I realise that a club's own fans tend to overrate their own players, but, please, a few facts:

Judd had just turned 24 when he left West Coast. Griffen will be 28 at the end of this season.
Judd was universally acknowledged as the best player in the country. A Brownlow Medallist, all Australian and premiership captain.
Griff is a very good player. Top 25 in the comp and just ahead of Libba as our best.

Another point is that, at 30, Judd's best football is at least two years behind him.... I'd labour to stress that Griffen is nearly 28... Father Time creeps up fairly swiftly on midfielders who are approaching 30..!

So talk of Judd-like deals is way, way off the mark. Griff will play out the final three years (maybe four) of his career in a team that might bring him one finals series as he's on his way out.... Or we send him to a stronger list, take their first round pick and use it in a strong draft for yet another quality kid who'll play 5+ finals series for us..

[Before I Die]

I think BID means to say that without heros of the club like Brad Johnson, and the feeling that we're all in this together, that there's such a thing as playing for the Bulldogs, and not for money, premierships don't mean much - and I agree.


I think what I am saying is that the premierships are what we strive for, but the joy is really in the journey. I want a flag 'Before I Die'. I haven't had one in 50 years of following the Dogs. Do I regret not being born into a Collingwood or Carlton family? Not for a minute!
Do I want the Dogs to adopt the Essendon motto 'Whatever it takes'? No!

Do I believe Brad Johnson would trade his career for the career of Nathan Ablett? No! In the same way as Bob Murphy has no desire to follow the lead of Brian Lake.

Trading is not the work of the devil, but selling your soul in return for the promise of a quick fix is. If Griffen wanted out then do a trade. if not then he is currently an untouchable.

I am frustrated with lack of success but I believe we are on the right track. I also think we are at least 12 months away from really knowing where our weaknesses are.

[Go_Dogs]

that was for 3 years in the future though. Now he is 25 and another club gets 3-4 of his prime years as opposed to 1-2.

I must've missed something, because I'm lost.

[Scorlibo]

This is the kind of unrealistic, biased reaction that I expect. I realise that a club's own fans tend to overrate their own players, but, please, a few facts:

Judd had just turned 24 when he left West Coast. Griffen will be 28 at the end of this season.
Judd was universally acknowledged as the best player in the country. A Brownlow Medallist, all Australian and premiership captain.
Griff is a very good player. Top 25 in the comp and just ahead of Libba as our best.

Another point is that, at 30, Judd's best football is at least two years behind him.... I'd labour to stress that Griffen is nearly 28... Father Time creeps up fairly swiftly on midfielders who are approaching 30..!

So talk of Judd-like deals is way, way off the mark. Griff will play out the final three years (maybe four) of his career in a team that might bring him one finals series as he's on his way out.... Or we send him to a stronger list, take their first round pick and use it in a strong draft for yet another quality kid who'll play 5+ finals series for us..

On last year's form, and there's no doubt he can recapture it, Griff was at least a top ten player in the competition but more realistically top 5. There's also no reason to think that he'll 'break' like Juddy is at the moment. Remember that the best player in the game at the moment is 3 years older than Griff (and the same age as Judd). Griff could very well churn out another 4-5 elite years, in which case he simply must demand a top ten pick, and not a late first rounder. If we traded Griff away for a late first rounder I would start a one man protest at the club's doors.


I think what I am saying is that the premierships are what we strive for, but the joy is really in the journey. I want a flag 'Before I Die'. I haven't had one in 50 years of following the Dogs. Do I regret not being born into a Collingwood or Carlton family? Not for a minute!
Do I want the Dogs to adopt the Essendon motto 'Whatever it takes'? No!

Do I believe Brad Johnson would trade his career for the career of Nathan Ablett? No! In the same way as Bob Murphy has no desire to follow the lead of Brian Lake.

Trading is not the work of the devil, but selling your soul in return for the promise of a quick fix is. If Griffen wanted out then do a trade. if not then he is currently an untouchable.

I am frustrated with lack of success but I believe we are on the right track. I also think we are at least 12 months away from really knowing where our weaknesses are.

Nicely put, I'm sure few would disagree with those sentiments.

[Topdog]

This is the kind of unrealistic, biased reaction that I expect. I realise that a club's own fans tend to overrate their own players, but, please, a few facts:

Judd had just turned 24 when he left West Coast. Griffen will be 28 at the end of this season.

You know what, it wasn't over rated biased I honestly thought Griff was 25 turning 26. Geez that makes a huge difference. I have to re-evaluate everything.


I must've missed something, because I'm lost.

Not you aren't lost I have apparently just blocked the last 2 years of existence out of my mind. Can't believe he is that old already. Geez that means Coons turns 29 at the end of this season.

[Topdog]

A few of my mates who were staunch McCartney supporters are now starting to question of he is the right man to lead us forward

[Mofra]

Wait, where did the late first round pick for Griff talk come in? I've never seen that mentioned. If Griff were to be traded for picks I'd be looking for a Judd style deal. And again this would all be after asking Griff if he is open to it.
I would not trade a player shortly after he re-signs with the club for far less money than he could otherwise get on the open market.
What does that say to other players who show loyalty?

[Pickenitup]

I Have been A Macca fan but my faith is at a all time low we have gone so far backwards this season it isn't funny.

[LostDoggy]

A few of my mates who were staunch McCartney supporters are now starting to question of he is the right man to lead us forward
Yep TD. Tonight was my night. Either we have a bunch of incompetent hacks on our list or Maccas game plan is (laughs) is a joke. I like him, but he's not a senior AFL coach. He's a senior assistant that we've needed for a long time. We're beyond irrelevant.

[bulldogtragic]

Yep TD. Tonight was my night. Either we have a bunch of incompetent hacks on our list or Maccas game plan is (laughs) is a joke. I like him, but he's not a senior AFL coach. He's a senior assistant that we've needed for a long time. We're beyond irrelevant.

If you believe that there's an outside chance, Leon hasn't extended himself yet has he?

[1eyedog]

Hmmmm. Tough night at the office tonight for Bmac.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Yep TD. Tonight was my night. Either we have a bunch of incompetent hacks on our list or Maccas game plan is (laughs) is a joke. I like him, but he's not a senior AFL coach. He's a senior assistant that we've needed for a long time. We're beyond irrelevant.

This.

We're not even the laughing stock, because that would insinuate that people watch us/care enough to voice an opinion about us.

I went to the footy tonight and the only time I yelled was when not one single team mate went and helped Grant when he was on the ground against three Lions players. Both before and after, I watched quietly, went and got a coffee and caught up with a friend who was also at the game.

To say we're irrelevant is an understatement.

[bornadog]

This.

We're not even the laughing stock, because that would insinuate that people watch us/care enough to voice an opinion about us.

I went to the footy tonight and the only time I yelled was when not one single team mate went and helped Grant when he was on the ground against three Lions players. Both before and after, I watched quietly, went and got a coffee and caught up with a friend who was also at the game.

To say we're irrelevant is an understatement.

That was a disgrace to football, and the umpire stood next to them and did nothing and the players didn't care.

We all thought Gieschen was bad, but the direction coming from Campbell is a joke at the moment.

[G-Mo77]

That was a disgrace to football, and the umpire stood next to them and did nothing and the players didn't care.

We all thought Gieschen was bad, but the direction coming from Campbell is a joke at the moment.

It was odd but what would have been better, pluck a free out because two guys were wrestling? As TBB said the worst thing about it no one else came to help out. 2 on 1 go in and help out! Even little Brennan Stack went in to lend a little help Bazza against the Norf nuffies.

[1eyedog]

That was a disgrace to football, and the umpire stood next to them and did nothing and the players didn't care.

We all thought Gieschen was bad, but the direction coming from Campbell is a joke at the moment.

I would seriously argue that we are not playing for each other at the moment. I'm not sure how much the players had an impact on the result tonight but it seemed to me that we were out-coached by a coach with less experience. More athletic than us what a crock of shite. If it was all about the opposition being more athletic and having the ability to run and spread haven't we had an extra 1.5 years on Brisbane to develop this? What the hell are we doing???

[Greystache]

This.

We're not even the laughing stock, because that would insinuate that people watch us/care enough to voice an opinion about us.

I went to the footy tonight and the only time I yelled was when not one single team mate went and helped Grant when he was on the ground against three Lions players. Both before and after, I watched quietly, went and got a coffee and caught up with a friend who was also at the game.

To say we're irrelevant is an understatement.

That sounds like me too. I went to get a drink during the first quarter, then after half time was chatting with some mates and only kept half and eye on the TV near by. I'm just not that interested in watching us play.

[AndrewP6]

My mobile phone was flat before I got home, I spent as much time on that as I did actually watching the game.

[Ozza]

If you're all so disinterested in watching the bulldogs - why do so many of you spend hours on woof typing about it/ potting the club?

Give me a spell.

[1eyedog]

If you're all so disinterested in watching the bulldogs - why do so many of you spend hours on woof typing about it/ potting the club?

Give me a spell.

Because it's the internet and the nature of the beast.

Because it helps to offset the pain of the loss and to try to find some sort of solace after a dreadful loss so I can try to sleep tonight.

This was pretty much loss of the season for me. I'm devastated.

[AndrewP6]

If you're all so disinterested in watching the bulldogs - why do so many of you spend hours on woof typing about it/ potting the club?

Give me a spell.

Because it's a club we love, and we hate what is being done to it.

[Remi Moses]

For crying out loud if there's so much disinterest don't bother wasting Data talking about the club.

[Remi Moses]

My mobile phone was flat before I got home, I spent as much time on that as I did actually watching the game.

Well why bother?

[AndrewP6]

Well why bother?

Good question.

[LostDoggy]

I've been in Macca's corner all this time but tonight has rocked me. My faith is lost.

It was the first game i've been to this year and it was so evident that we actually have no real plan

[Remi Moses]

I've been in Macca's corner all this time but tonight has rocked me. My faith is lost.

It was the first game i've been to this year and it was so evident that we actually have no real plan

I'm heading towards the cliff as well.
The constant recruiting of one particular type is really Worrying

[Scraggers]

So what's the alternative? Sack McCartney now? And replace him with whom? Another untried coach ... Do we go hat in hand and ask Rocket if he'll come back? What about Bomber ... He's got nothing to do come end of the year? Malthouse? I mean, he could be out of a job end of year too.

I hate this loss ... It hurts. This style of play is killing our footy club and dividing its members.

But right now, what are our alternatives but to stay the course ... I'm open to suggestions!!

I so want McCartney to succeed, to prove the doubters wrong ... I just can't see light at the end of this dark tunnel right now.

[Remi Moses]

It's testing our resolve no doubt, but they've gotta go the journey.
It's time we invested in some pace and Run .
Oh and a big forward with an early pick

[LostDoggy]

I'll probably get shot down for this and im not saying we don't have problems.

Brisbane were a false bottom side, check their form. Bar a couple of bad games against the Kangaroos and Swans who both could be top 6 sides, the Lions have either ran close to decent sides or beat them in their last 5 or so games. All were preety much teams we are even with or have beaten us already.

Make no mistake they are in preety good form, they knocked the blues off last week (who ran the cats to a whisker), Pushed the Bombers right out and knocked the saints off. Couldn't believe the odds before the game, especially with minimal changes.

Don't throw the towel in yet. But I do agree the loss really hurts and we need a few kicks in the Russell but 8 points in the end against a side who match up well with their superior speed and who are in form, isn't the end of the world and about where we are at.

YNWA.

[Topdog]

I'll probably get shot down for this and im not saying we don't have problems.

Brisbane were a false bottom side, check their form. .

The problem with that is that it makes us a false 14th and reality that we should be 16th. Have we regressed that much in the last 10 months?

[Mantis]

R17.

Agree that Brisbane aren't a terrible side, but the ladder doesn't lie. Sure St.Kilda & GWS are probably the 'worst' teams in the comp, but Brisbane and us are in the same bracket.

The disappointing thing is that Brisbane are missing a number of key players, whereas we are pretty much at full strength.. The gap between game style is vast too, but that also comes down to the type of player you draft & select.

[always right]

I hate Macca bring compared to Rhode but I have to acknowledge that we are in a dark position that feels very similar. Clubs like ours survive on hope.....the hope that better times are just around the corner. When that hope ceases to exist, it becomes a very dangerous place.

To re-phrase the famous philosopher Ricky Gervais.......just when you think you can see a light at the end of the tunnel you realise it's just some bastard with a torch bringing you more misery.

[FrediKanoute]

Maybe the alternative is to go back to what we know and what was successful.......Rocket Eade.? Hindsight is wonderful, but he read the situation right in 2010/2011 in regards rebuild. It was the club that refused to face he truth.

Personally, games we have lost this year, Brisssy, Norf, Essendon, the close ones where we have been in it but for a quarter, are where Eade would have been better tactically. I am sure he burns with unfinished business and can take a team which has been developed to win the contested ball and mould it into a rebounding counterattacking team.

[G-Mo77]

FYI. Listening to Macca on MMM Podcast, quite good, a little more open than I've heard. Worth a listen if you've got a spare 10 minutes.

[Ghost Dog]

It was an 8 point loss. I'm not sure that really calls for the coaches' head. Plenty of question marks as to why we seem to be behind schedule. Coach showing inexperience with certain match ups? Selections a bit off? ( Howard? ) Miss Boyd, need Grant to repeat success of late last year.

http://www.triplem.com.au/melbourne/sport/afl/

McCartney interview on Sunday Rub MMM

[Topdog]

It was an 8 point loss. I'm not sure that really calls for the coaches' head.

In the 1 week at a time spirit of AFL cliches no it is not enough to start those calls. 3 wins in 11 games with one of the softest schedules ever might be.

[Ghost Dog]

In the 1 week at a time spirit of AFL cliches no it is not enough to start those calls. 3 wins in 11 games with one of the softest schedules ever might be.

Which games, exactly, were 'soft' this season?

[1eyedog]

Which games, exactly, were 'soft' this season?

...at least the Adelaide game?

It hasn't all got to do just with the results, a problem I have as has been discussed on this board is a lack of match day nous. If this is not Macca's role (e.g. it's the assistants role) then the assistants need to be looked at.

I'd also like to see a bit of passion in press conferences. He seems pretty relaxed generally like a man who has a number of years up his sleeve no matter what and knows that we will all be in it for the long hall. I just wish he would give / tell the members something!

[Ghost Dog]

...at least the Adelaide game?

It hasn't all got to do just with the results, a problem I have as has been discussed on this board is a lack of match day nous. If this is not Macca's role (e.g. it's the assistants role) then the assistants need to be looked at.

I'd also like to see a bit of passion in press conferences. He seems pretty relaxed generally like a man who has a number of years up his sleeve no matter what and knows that we will all be in it for the long hall. I just wish he would give / tell the members something!



He has put his hand up and said " The buck stops with me,". What else could be said?

He'll be punished for his honesty by those outside the circle. Why can't we congratulate him for it within?
Yes Brendan, it's your job, so please be harsh at the selection table, get good tactical support for game day and lets move forward. Couldn't care less if he's passionate or not in the conferences. If he wins games or not; that's all I care about.
Bob Murphy wrote an article about the Detroit Pistons and their method of winning ugly. I'd like to see some of that.

We are so predictable as a side. Clubs know exactly what they are going to get and how to negate it.

[Bulldog4life]

...at least the Adelaide game?

It hasn't all got to do just with the results, a problem I have as has been discussed on this board is a lack of match day nous. If this is not Macca's role (e.g. it's the assistants role) then the assistants need to be looked at.

I'd also like to see a bit of passion in press conferences. He seems pretty relaxed generally like a man who has a number of years up his sleeve no matter what and knows that we will all be in it for the long hall. I just wish he would give / tell the members something!

He does every week.

[The Underdog]

...at least the Adelaide game?

It hasn't all got to do just with the results, a problem I have as has been discussed on this board is a lack of match day nous. If this is not Macca's role (e.g. it's the assistants role) then the assistants need to be looked at.

I'd also like to see a bit of passion in press conferences. He seems pretty relaxed generally like a man who has a number of years up his sleeve no matter what and knows that we will all be in it for the long hall. I just wish he would give / tell the members something!

I couldn't give a crap about the showing passion stuff. I'd rather have someone who can maintain a level head and mostly it achieves nothing but placating an angry fan base who want to see that others are also angry. I'd suggest that he's fairly different with the media than behind closed doors.
However I think if Macca retains his role (and the contract extension suggests he will) I agree that there needs to be a serious review of the assistant coaches. Particularly the forward and midfield roles which I believe is Grant and King. These areas have stagnated and we need to look at them. I know ultimately the head coach has responsibility but if there is no progression in certain areas of the ground then these line coaches need to be questioned.

[bulldogtragic]

He does every week.

True, but I think the point was it's nothing of substance. When you suffer horrible losses and virtually the exact side fronts up again and the result is the same, words are very hollow. Members and supporters need hope, and I'm not being told anything to keep me hopeful, but worse, if it's about not walking the talk, leaving bad loss side (virtually) unchanged doesn't offer hope either. For whatever anyone's philosophy about learning, over defence, winning vs development. One of Macca's main roles as the face of our club is to walk and talk words of hope. People use a paralell of Port Adelaide as a team we could have copied this year. I hate to say the difference is Koch's investment into amazing videos and media, and Hinkley winning the hearts and minds of Pirt Adelaide was why they drastically improved. They got the fans back to the ground even before their resurgence hit. Melbourne did the same yesterday. Hope is what keeps us strong, retains members and gets new ones. I am without hope, simply accepting responsibility for a loss or a short video doesn't give me hope. Actions speak louder than words, our refusal to change losing sides is upsetting and frustrating as is when they lose again.

[1eyedog]

He does every week.

You're obviously joking.

All I hear every week is we have areas to work on, some individuals need to work harder and we'll go back to work on Monday. EVERY WEEK. Don't name names Macca but what are those individuals working on? What areas are we currently working on as a club? What will be the key issues we look at when you get to work on Monday? These small video grabs etc. are all supporters / paid up members have to work with. Is being a bit more open about this stuff really secret squirrel stuff? Will it reveal and unravel our game plan to all opposition analysts? I find this hard to believe.

Macca needs to say something to the members outside of the padding he is producing which is nothing more than the party line. Let us know where we really need to improve Macca - no-one is listening other than our members Macca remember we are irrelevant.

[Remi Moses]

The best statement is to drop a few senior players.
Rant and Raving doesn't happen anymore, and the best statement is to drop senior players not performing.

[G-Mo77]

You're obviously joking.

All I hear every week is we have areas to work on, some individuals need to work harder and we'll go back to work on Monday. EVERY WEEK. Don't name names Macca but what are those individuals working on? What areas are we currently working on as a club? What will be the key issues we look at when you get to work on Monday? These small video grabs etc. are all supporters / paid up members have to work with. Is being a bit more open about this stuff really secret squirrel stuff? Will it reveal and unravel our game plan to all opposition analysts? I find this hard to believe.

Macca needs to say something to the members outside of the padding he is producing which is nothing more than the party line. Let us know where we really need to improve Macca - no-one is listening other than our members Macca remember we are irrelevant.

Not having a shot at you 1eye, I hear this a lot and I was saying something similar on Saturday night at the footy. Macca doesn't have to say a thing about specifics in his press conference's. He always states were we broke down and it's always spot on (Fixing it is worrying). If he comes out and says this guy didn't do this, this guy wasn't switched on people would be jumping on him for bagging players in the public eye. He's dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't.

This weeks PC and the radio shows he was on Sunday morning he was a lot more open. They're worth a listen if anyone gets a chance.

[Remi Moses]

Not having a shot at you 1eye, I hear this a lot and I was saying something similar on Saturday night at the footy. Macca doesn't have to say a thing about specifics in his press conference's. He always states were we broke down and it's always spot on (Fixing it is worrying). If he comes out and says this guy didn't do this, this guy wasn't switched on people would be jumping on him for bagging players in the public eye. He's dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't.

This weeks PC and the radio shows he was on Sunday morning he was a lot more open. They're worth a listen if anyone gets a chance.
Exactly, potting players publicly went the way of the dodo bird.

[G-Mo77]

The best statement is to drop a few senior players.
Rant and Raving doesn't happen anymore, and the best statement is to drop senior players not performing.

Agree. Messages need to be sent through the team selection and not just the usual suspects (apart from Howard). I was really disappointed with our team selection last week and picked against us when I saw it.

[1eyedog]

Not having a shot at you 1eye, I hear this a lot and I was saying something similar on Saturday night at the footy. Macca doesn't have to say a thing about specifics in his press conference's. He always states were we broke down and it's always spot on (Fixing it is worrying). If he comes out and says this guy didn't do this, this guy wasn't switched on people would be jumping on him for bagging players in the public eye. He's dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't.

This weeks PC and the radio shows he was on Sunday morning he was a lot more open. They're worth a listen if anyone gets a chance.


Exactly, potting players publicly went the way of the dodo bird.

I specifically said in my post that he shouldn't name players but I get your drift G-Mo77 - I'm just a bit miffed at the moment and I'm looking for a crutch to help me hobble along.

[G-Mo77]

I specifically said in my post that he shouldn't name players but I get your drift G-Mo77 - I'm just a bit miffed at the moment and I'm looking for a crutch to help me hobble along.

You're doing better than me, I'm looking for a wheel chair. :P

[Twodogs]

I specifically said in my post that he shouldn't name players but I get your drift G-Mo77 - I'm just a bit miffed at the moment and I'm looking for a crutch to help me hobble along.


You're doing better than me, I'm looking for a wheel chair. :P

I'm still hiding under the same table I hid under halfway through the second quarter on Saturday night.

[Maddog37]

The team plays the way Macca presents himself to the public. Boring and monotonous. No flair or excitement and just a continual focus on hard work followed by more hard work.

[LostDoggy]

I specifically said in my post that he shouldn't name players but I get your drift G-Mo77 - I'm just a bit miffed at the moment and I'm looking for a crutch to help me hobble along.

Have a listen to Macca's interview on MMM if you haven't already. Wayne Carey (i think) asked him when you get in Monday morning, what part of the game exactly have you been working on the last few weeks.

[Topdog]

Which games, exactly, were 'soft' this season?

Considering we have played only 3 of the 11 games against top 8 it would be hard to not say 6 games at a minimum have been "soft"

[Scorlibo]

Considering we have played only 3 of the 11 games against top 8 it would be hard to not say 6 games at a minimum have been "soft"

We haven't played a single side who just presented their throats to us. Everyone has turned up to play.

[Topdog]

We haven't played a single side who just presented their throats to us. Everyone has turned up to play.

If we are waiting for that we are in big big trouble. We have had an easy draw, it really is that simple.

[bornadog]

If we are waiting for that we are in big big trouble. We have had an easy draw, it really is that simple.

NO we haven't because we have loist more than we have won :D

[Ghost Dog]

We don't have the talent to afford any kind of lapse or fundamental skill errors when not under immense pressure. If we play 100% honest footy we do ok.
All this fumbling out of the backline and dicking about with handballs is a recipe for disaster.
I can see what Brendan wants but he hasn't go the blokes to implement it.

[The Doctor]

I can see what Brendan wants but he hasn't go the blokes to implement it.

Please explain what he wants and which blokes aren't good enough to implement it

[LostDoggy]

I don't know what Macca wants but I do know the leadership is well aware we need a number1 forward to progress and we simply don't have a good one on our list. Jones is a good third or at best ok second tall. Thats not a knock - thats where his skill set lies. Williams is another stop gap. Macca can do so much with the cattle but we need that role and there are 4 other clubs at the bottom with us looking for the same player type.

[Remi Moses]

Which blokes aren't good enough to implement any plan
From the back line....

[1eyedog]

Which blokes are?

Roughead, Higgins, Murphy, Picken, Crameri, Dahlhaus, Morris, Griffen, Cooney, Wood, Macrae, Liberatore, Minson and Boyd are all very capable (albeit some are out of form) footballers capable of implementing the plan (I hope they know what it is because I don't).

Hrovat, Stringer, Hunter and Bonts who are all young highly likely types on the fringes. That's 18 very decent players right there.

We've lost 3 games by less than 10 points and could easily be 6 wins and 5 losses and be on the cusp of the 8. I thought we were right in it against North as well.

Would everyone be happy if we were 6/5 regardless of how ugly our brand of football was? St. Kilda fans certainly were when the made the GF under Lyon.

[The Underdog]

Which blokes are?

Roughead, Higgins, Murphy, Picken, Crameri, Dahlhaus, Morris, Griffen, Cooney, Wood, Macrae, Liberatore, Minson and Boyd are all very capable (albeit some are out of form) footballers capable of implementing the plan (I hope they know what it is because I don't).

Hrovat, Stringer, Hunter and Bonts who are all young highly likely types on the fringes. That's 18 very decent players right there.

We've lost 3 games by less than 10 points and could easily be 6 wins and 5 losses and be on the cusp of the 8. I thought we were right in it against North as well.

Would everyone be happy if we were 6/5 regardless of how ugly our brand of football was? St. Kilda fans certainly were when the made the GF under Lyon.

We also could easily be 1-10 if we'd dropped the Richmond game which was looking pretty likely with 5 minutes to go & if Melbourne had of converted a couple of easy shots they blew at the end of that game. We also won the GWS game with one big final quarter.
It goes both ways, but a 6-5 record would be a lie. However you look at it, we are a bottom 5 side and not likely to make it out of there in a hurry. The final score on Saturday night flattered us no end.

[bulldogtragic]

Which blokes are?

Roughead, Higgins, Murphy, Picken, Crameri, Dahlhaus, Morris, Griffen, Cooney, Wood, Macrae, Liberatore, Minson and Boyd are all very capable (albeit some are out of form) footballers capable of implementing the plan (I hope they know what it is because I don't).

Hrovat, Stringer, Hunter and Bonts who are all young highly likely types on the fringes. That's 18 very decent players right there.

We've lost 3 games by less than 10 points and could easily be 6 wins and 5 losses and be on the cusp of the 8. I thought we were right in it against North as well.

Would everyone be happy if we were 6/5 regardless of how ugly our brand of football was? St. Kilda fans certainly were when the made the GF under Lyon.

Post 666...

[azabob]

Post 666...

Devil is in the detail BT, devil is in the detail

[Ghost Dog]

Please explain what he wants and which blokes aren't good enough to implement it

He wants a side that gets their own ball. He wants versitile players that can be moved around the ground. He wants players that have both an inside and an outside game. Who's thriving under his gameplan? Picken, Addison (was ) Morris, Liberatore, Mitch Wallis ( you can argue against that, but Mitch has kept Natt Fyfe and a few other stars to single figures this season ) Will Minson ( drop in form of late, but has had a good go in the Mac era ) Luke Dahlhaus is another.
Players who have not done so well in the McCartney era, Christian Howard, Tutt, or anyone else who has a tendency to run past a contest.

The problem is if you don't get it cleanly out of your back half or have the polish to create scoring opportunities, all the contested work is for nothing. The fumbles and lack of cool under pressure is killing us.

Why can't we just go in small against Collingwood? Gia always seems to be able to find a way. Is our midfield doing enough to score, themselves, and have a shot over the defence?

[Scorlibo]

Which blokes are?

Roughead, Higgins, Murphy, Picken, Crameri, Dahlhaus, Morris, Griffen, Cooney, Wood, Macrae, Liberatore, Minson and Boyd are all very capable (albeit some are out of form) footballers capable of implementing the plan (I hope they know what it is because I don't).

Hrovat, Stringer, Hunter and Bonts who are all young highly likely types on the fringes. That's 18 very decent players right there.

We've lost 3 games by less than 10 points and could easily be 6 wins and 5 losses and be on the cusp of the 8. I thought we were right in it against North as well.

Would everyone be happy if we were 6/5 regardless of how ugly our brand of football was? St. Kilda fans certainly were when the made the GF under Lyon.

And in 2009, our brand of football was arguably uglier than St Kilda's. From memory, we were the number one contested ball side, number one defence. The prelim that year was heart-wrenching, but it was a classic battle, great football. I could say the same for a number of game from around that time from the Doggies and the Saints.

[Greystache]

And in 2009, our brand of football was arguably uglier than St Kilda's. From memory, we were the number one contested ball side, number one defence. The prelim that year was heart-wrenching, but it was a classic battle, great football. I could say the same for a number of game from around that time from the Doggies and the Saints.

Not even close. We had the highest points scored against total of all top 6 teams. St Kilda were well over 500 points less than us.

[bornadog]

And in 2009, our brand of football was arguably uglier than St Kilda's. From memory, we were the number one contested ball side, number one defence. The prelim that year was heart-wrenching, but it was a classic battle, great football. I could say the same for a number of game from around that time from the Doggies and the Saints.

People forget that and think the style then was purely run run run.

[Greystache]

People forget that and think the style then was purely run run run.

It was, see above.

[bornadog]

It was, see above.

We were second in cont possessions to Geelong and Saints were third. Yes you are right about scoring.

[Scorlibo]

Not even close. We had the highest points scored against total of all top 6 teams. St Kilda were well over 500 points less than us.

Which had us placed 6th in points against! Point taken, but as BAD says, we weren't all run. We were a contested ball side, that was what we were good at. Creating stoppages and winning them, putting numbers around the ball. It was tight, hard football.

[Ghost Dog]

I hate the fact we have to come out and state ' oh don't worry, we have plenty of fight'. Of course we bloody well have. We are the Bulldogs. We are bred to not give in, and that's a symbol of what we are.

[bulldogtragic]

I hate the fact we have to come out and state ' oh don't worry, we have plenty of fight'. Of course we bloody well have. We are the Bulldogs. We are bred to not give in, and that's a symbol of what we are.

I don't think any of us think fight or effort is our problem. This compounds the annoyance of members, or at least me. Don't tell me about fight, more fight or any fight. Tell me about actual team changes/selections, gameplan, new ideas, any ideas, that there is a sign of something different to look forward to because each week is getting harder to look forward to.

We 'were the threat' with a so called soft draw. I'm not sure which is worse, having a bad first half of the season when should have won more, or having a bad second half of the season when we are expected to lose anyway which compounds the first half of the season more. Don't tell me about fight, give me hope.

[lemmon]

I don't think any of us think fight or effort is our problem. This compounds the annoyance of members, or at least me. Don't tell me about fight, more fight or any fight. Tell me about actual team changes/selections, gameplan, new ideas, any ideas, that there is a sign of something different to look forward to because each week is getting harder to look forward to.

We 'were the threat' with a so called soft draw. I'm not sure which is worse, having a bad first half of the season when should have won more, or having a bad second half of the season when we are expected to lose anyway which compounds the first half of the season more. Don't tell me about fight, give me hope.
I feel exactly the same way, 'fight' doesn't put a footy lace out on a leading forward's chest

[1eyedog]

We also could easily be 1-10 if we'd dropped the Richmond game which was looking pretty likely with 5 minutes to go & if Melbourne had of converted a couple of easy shots they blew at the end of that game. We also won the GWS game with one big final quarter.
It goes both ways, but a 6-5 record would be a lie. However you look at it, we are a bottom 5 side and not likely to make it out of there in a hurry. The final score on Saturday night flattered us no end.

Sliding doors in football - every club has their moments and the result is often finely poised. North missed out on finals by one game a few years by losing 5 games by less than 2 kicks. I realise what you are saying but unlike others here I think we have a list of pretty good players, although we have a disparaging age profile at the upper and lower ends but momentum and confidence are wonderful drivers and I wonder whether some of this may have propelled us along if we'd just managed one extra goal late against Adelaide. I'm a glass half full guy.

[1eyedog]

Post 666...

Don't say that I'll have nightmares!

[Ghost Dog]

I don't think any of us think fight or effort is our problem. This compounds the annoyance of members, or at least me. Don't tell me about fight, more fight or any fight. Tell me about actual team changes/selections, gameplan, new ideas, any ideas, that there is a sign of something different to look forward to because each week is getting harder to look forward to.

We 'were the threat' with a so called soft draw. I'm not sure which is worse, having a bad first half of the season when should have won more, or having a bad second half of the season when we are expected to lose anyway which compounds the first half of the season more. Don't tell me about fight, give me hope.

Well said there.

[Remi Moses]

I don't think any of us think fight or effort is our problem. This compounds the annoyance of members, or at least me. Don't tell me about fight, more fight or any fight. Tell me about actual team changes/selections, gameplan, new ideas, any ideas, that there is a sign of something different to look forward to because each week is getting harder to look forward to.

We 'were the threat' with a so called soft draw. I'm not sure which is worse, having a bad first half of the season when should have won more, or having a bad second half of the season when we are expected to lose anyway which compounds the first half of the season more. Don't tell me about fight, give me hope.

Agreed Don't reckon fight is the issue.

[Greystache]

I don't think any of us think fight or effort is our problem. This compounds the annoyance of members, or at least me. Don't tell me about fight, more fight or any fight. Tell me about actual team changes/selections, gameplan, new ideas, any ideas, that there is a sign of something different to look forward to because each week is getting harder to look forward to.

We 'were the threat' with a so called soft draw. I'm not sure which is worse, having a bad first half of the season when should have won more, or having a bad second half of the season when we are expected to lose anyway which compounds the first half of the season more. Don't tell me about fight, give me hope.

Exactly. Fight is actually all we have, and we've been giving it everything we've got every week.

We've got 15 one-paced midfielders with poor skills in any given week, no marking forwards, only one genuine key defender, and one hopelessly out of form ruckman. We crowd the stoppage, try to win it, hack it forward, try to force another stoppage, win it, hack it forward, and continue this until we either lose the clearance or hack it direct to an opposition halfback and they drive it through the corridor and kick it to an open forward line where our defenders are exposed and they get a goal. Rinse and repeat.

We've got 15 blokes cracking in contest after contest after contest trying to win the hardball, only then after winning 3 or 4 or 5 in a row to see the ball effortlessly fly back down the other end while they desperately chase opponents they're never going to catch. Given the circumstances I think the effort has been amazing.

I don't want to hear about effort, I want to hear that we have some plan other than stop, hack, stop, hack, lose!

[Ghost Dog]

Some very good posts and comments.
I've been thinking about it. If you are a Geelong fan, if the game is on the line, you have every confidence your team is going to Bartell or Selwood a late goal or point. That's what Brendan wants, and I fully appreciate it.
But if we can't get wins to give the playing group confidence, or have the tactical nous to jag a win when brute force won't work, ( eg: Rocket, who more than once defied the odds on paper ) the playing group is going to tire, lose confidence, and blokes like Griff are going to ruin their bodies trying to save face. When our opportunities come, we have to grab it with both hands.
We need a little poise, learn to steady and slow up play when needed. Panic bomb and hospital hand-pass when not under real pressure are our enemies. But as Stache says, the blokes are giving it their all.

[1eyedog]

I'm all for playing a form a static warfare if it gets us wins - no problems. Teams in the past have taken that model to Grand Finals but as GD says above what we desperately need to learn and fast is the ability to control the tempo of the game by retaining possession when the rub of the green is against us. All three games we've lost by less than 10 points probably just required a bit of composure and the ability to slow down play. We also seem to have a massive problem with the oppositions outside runner(s) getting hold of us (e.g. Stephen Hill) and I can't think of anyone able to go with this type of player other than Jong and he can probably only do it for a half of football at present. It's been outside run that has killed us in every game bar North where the umpires slapped us around at the end of the 3rd.

[azabob]

I get the feeling Jong won't be at the club next year.

[1eyedog]

I get the feeling Jong won't be at the club next year.

Me too but he is the only player who has the pace to be a run-with type to the opposition's outsider. Macca has used him in this role already. However, if this is the only string to his bow he is behind the 8 ball - still, he has been a proven goal kicker in the few games he has played and this is facilitated by his pace. If he can exploit this strength he may survive the ensuing cull. Lots of ifs.

[EasternWest]

Bumped on behalf of Bulldogtagic.

Please discuss your current opinions on McCartney's status.

[bornadog]

I think he will be under the pump next year not only from supporters but also the media. Must win lots of games or patience has run out.

I am pissed off we unnecessarily extended his contract and did n't wait for a proper review at the end of the first contract

[Hotdog60]

I'm on board for the long haul and let the club make the decision when they feel its right.

I hope when his contract is up in 2 years time he is holding off talks until we finish the grand final.;)

[bulldogtragic]

Bumped on behalf of Bulldogtagic.

Please discuss your current opinions on McCartney's status.

Ah man, here come hate for BT... People should read the thread before posting. People should remember etiquette and that WOOF is about critical thinking and argument over over simplistic quips.

From another thread: If you have a read it's interesting to see what is covered by winning, and what the concerns are on an ongoing lull to lull. It seems Macca is polarising in the sense the strong support and strong criticism seems quick. It's worth reading to see what the consistent good things are, but also what the constant criticism is. And whether winning or losing over-accentuates the rate of posting, but rather the posting in his defence.

[GVGjr]

Ah man, here come hate for BT...

You might be blowing that up a bit. I re-read the last 10 pages and I'd suggest that you were bruise free :)

[bulldogtragic]

You might be blowing that up a bit. I re-read the last 10 pages and I'd suggest that you were bruise free :)

Cool, someone read the thread. This one was good G, I'm like the Melbourne FC as you say in this one. But... There were several frustrating comments across a few other threads over a few weeks referencing bumping this thread. No regular posters it should be noted, but still frustrating none the less.

To the thread, I find it an interesting reading of sentiment. The negatives seem consistent as do the positives. I'm not sure if the latest is a storm in a tea cup, or the negatives outweighing the perceived positives. For an unassuming likeable bloke, he or his method or results seem to polarise.

[GVGjr]

To the thread, I find it an interesting reading of sentiment. The negatives seem consistent as do the positives. I'm not sure if the latest is a storm in a tea cup, or the negatives outweighing the perceived positives. For an unassuming likeable bloke, he or his method or results seem to polarise.

In the 10 pages I read, there was nothing that I hadn't read on so many other threads.
Some people are frustrated with the losses and naturally have the coach in the firing line, others are taking the longer term view given the influx of talented youngsters. To be honest I don't think it's a great thread or that interesting it's just a sign that some supporters can't cop the losses quietly any more while others, perhaps naively, are still looking forward to better days.

I can see both sides of the argument but I have no intention of giving up on the club and will back us all the way.

[bulldogtragic]

In the 10 pages I read, there was nothing that I hadn't read on so many other threads.
Some people are frustrated with the losses and naturally have the coach in the firing line, others are taking the longer term view given the influx of talented youngsters. To be honest I don't think it's a great thread or that interesting it's just a sign that some supporters can't cop the losses quietly any more while others, perhaps naively, are still looking forward to better days.

I can see both sides of the argument but I have no intention of giving up on the club and will back us all the way.

The exact wording is nothing brilliant, it's more so the level and speed to condemn or defend. And also the length of the thread. The consistent themes (predominantly critical ones) have been there for possibly the very beginning. As the criticisms span years, Does it suggest that this is not improving or that the issues are so ingrained in some that nothing short of a premiership this year would have changed it. I think it shows a significant division in the club membership, one that appears to be going nowhere any time soon. People jump after some wins to celebrate, and a few losses to condemn. I don't recall the same passionate division when Wallace or Eade got the main gigs.

From what I can recall from my time is Joyce and Rhode did. If I'm forced at using this over simplistic analyaltic tool Wallace & Eade had the support of the membership and thus had more time to do what they needed to. Joyce & Rhode were not given the time. Right or wrong the membership and in the later the playing group turned on the coach of a few years. If we relied on the past club activity as a predictor one would possibly be more likely to suggest that divided members are symptomatic of the broader club, and when players are said to be going that way our history says we don't stay the course. Some might say rightfully so. Some might say Joyce or Rhode could have later succeeded.

Now for my opinion... We can't afford to pay the contract out even if we wanted to. But a divided membership and fractured playing group is cause for concern. Those that bought the Macca vision have got to stand by it.

[Remi Moses]

It's such a quick fire angry heat of the moment thread title.

[bulldogtragic]

It's such a quick fire angry heat of the moment thread title.

Agreed Remi. Gotta see the forest from the trees though. The conversation from looking at a long term debate along the ups and downs, wins and losses with some hopefully rational conversation is seperate from the title. I can't recall the OP poster back since then, so I'm not sure why they went with it 18 months ago.

[westdog54]

It's such a quick fire angry heat of the moment thread title.

Its worth noting that the thread starter then went a full year without another post.

[G-Mo77]

I don't see the point in bumps. Usually it's for pointless "I told you so's" to one up someone else.

I've changed my view since this thread. I haven't gone through my posts but I know my stance at the time was give him time. I was confident with the direction and the way we were rebuilding. Now I have pretty much zero confidence in our coach. We've had no improvement as a team IMO, we are worse than last year. There are some great individual improvements there are also some significant declines. Our game plan still seems non existent and our selections often make no sense. I don't buy into the "Won more quarters" crap, that's political spin and reminds me of our idiot PM. Often times I felt we played not to lose by a lot rather than win. Throw in some rumors about off field issues and in short I'm concerned, very concerned.

I've come to the conclusion we're going to be a poor side for a long time. I think we'll get worse before we get better. Our list was a disgrace at the end of Eade's reign so that will take a long time to turn around however i'm not sure Macca can take us to the next level even when the list is more balanced. Sure he can develop individual players but developing our team overall I have doubts. 2015 is make or break for him.

[bornadog]

I don't see the point in bumps. Usually it's for pointless "I told you so's" to one up someone else.

I've changed my view since this thread. I haven't gone through my posts but I know my stance at the time was give him time. I was confident with the direction and the way we were rebuilding. Now I have pretty much zero confidence in our coach. We've had no improvement as a team IMO, we are worse than last year. There are some great individual improvements there are also some significant declines. Our game plan still seems non existent and our selections often make no sense. I don't buy into the "Won more quarters" crap, that's political spin and reminds me of our idiot PM. Often times I felt we played not to lose by a lot rather than win. Throw in some rumors about off field issues and in short I'm concerned, very concerned.

I've come to the conclusion we're going to be a poor side for a long time. I think we'll get worse before we get better. Our list was a disgrace at the end of Eade's reign so that will take a long time to turn around however i'm not sure Macca can take us to the next level even when the list is more balanced. Sure he can develop individual players but developing our team overall I have doubts. 2015 is make or break for him.

I think a lot of us are starting to feel this way.

[Dancin' Douggy]

It's a tough one because there's still huge glaring holes in our list, which we all openly acknowledge.
So it's hard to judge our on field performances when we are so easily smashed for pace,
and taken apart by any half decent tall forward that comes along.

We just desperately need to improve our list.

The cluster of young talent we've assembled is perhaps the best we've ever had as one group.
(Stringer, Bontempelli, Macrae, Libba, Hrovat, Dalhaus, Hunter) I would like to see us, via the trade table, and jockeying in the draft. Bolster this group with as much top end talent, in the same age bracket as we possibly can. NOW.


Up until the recent murmurings I thought we were tracking ok and I, for one, didn't expect to see much improvement this year anyway. There was definitely a 'feel good' vibe there for a while coming from within the club, from the supporters and from the media and the general public as well. Can't believe it's all completely evaporated overnight.

[jeemak]

It can be turned into a positive quite easily, much like the 2007 review was.

[Bulldog Joe]

I think a lot of us are starting to feel this way.

I am disturbed by the amount of disquiet I hear, particularly at games.

Having attended both VFL finals I heard plenty of comments attacking the game methodology and adefend first mantra. I was certainly confused with the way we played against Williamstown, when we had everyone up the ground at stages and no forwards, despite kicking with a howling gale.

I guess my confidence in the coach is now on shakier ground than previously, but I can see plenty of reasons why our season fell away.

The last thing we need now is instability, so we really need some positives through the off season and to hit the ground running in 2015.

I do feel that we are further advanced than most believe, but just need a few pieces to fit together. One of those important pieces is to have a really good pre-season with key players getting a full benefit.

[Murphy'sLore]

it is interesting, and I've felt it myself. I wonder if it's partly a result of a long history of disappointment, that our default position as supporters is pessimism rather than confidence that we can ride out the storm? When things go wrong, it doesn't take much to knock us off-kilter into despair. Perhaps if we had a history of sustained success behind us, it might be easier to stay steady and have faith that a long-term plan will eventually bear fruit. Instead we are overwhelmed by the feeling, here we go again, crap as usual...

Not saying that the long term plan WILL bear fruit, just interested in the psychological dimension.

[F'scary]

I am predicting that Macca is going to turn the list over hard after the VFL GF. Deep cuts, lots of trades. Why? The coach's situation.

[KT31]

I am predicting that Macca is going to turn the list over hard after the VFL GF. Deep cuts, lots of trades. Why? The coach's situation.
I agree F'Scary, and as I mentioned in another post, if he only turns over minimal players and thinks our list is up to it, he is fooling himself and will lose more than most.

[bornadog]

I agree F'Scary, and as I mentioned in another post, if he only turns over minimal players and thinks our list is up to it, he is fooling himself and will lose more than most.

As long we can replace with better players.

[Ozza]

I am predicting that Macca is going to turn the list over hard after the VFL GF. Deep cuts, lots of trades. Why? The coach's situation.

Go back 2-3 weeks and there was a discussion on WOOF about an interview (from SEN) with McCartney - where he stated he expected around 5 changes to the list. That was met with (some) discontent on WOOF as the belief was that that was too conservative - and that we needed more changes.

Now you are suggesting that the coach is going to make massive changes to the list because of his own (perceived/rumoured/speculated/invented) situation.

[Twodogs]

Go back 2-3 weeks and there was a discussion on WOOF about an interview (from SEN) with McCartney - where he stated he expected around 5 changes to the list. That was met with (some) discontent on WOOF as the belief was that that was too conservative - and that we needed more changes.

Now you are suggesting that the coach is going to make massive changes to the list because of his own (perceived/rumoured/speculated/invented) situation.

Isn't it Jason who cuts the list? He's the list manager. Bmac would get a pretty big say but it's Jmac who would make the final decision I reckon.

[F'scary]

Go back 2-3 weeks and there was a discussion on WOOF about an interview (from SEN) with McCartney - where he stated he expected around 5 changes to the list. That was met with (some) discontent on WOOF as the belief was that that was too conservative - and that we needed more changes.

Now you are suggesting that the coach is going to make massive changes to the list because of his own (perceived/rumoured/speculated/invented) situation.

The 5 changes line was a smoke screen.

[bornadog]

I'm sick hearing the spin, the crap about how we should be doing this and that, sick of the contested ball focus.

The coach has got us into this position. He has swayed the recruiting staff to go after the same type of player that we already have...slow midfielders who can't kick. Does he teach them anything at training. I don't see it on the field.

What was with our handball tonight...trigger happy handball. It's because he has a team full of players who can't run...all they can do is handball...it's the leading root of most of our problems. I could go on but I won't bore you...we as supporters are already suffering from that pathetic display.

Time to go coach. Make way for the next person.

It's time, do it today

[The Doctor]

Don't get me started!!

[The Bulldogs Bite]

In all seriousness, how can he genuinely be kept?

[LostDoggy]

It may have made sense to bone McCartney if it meant keeping Griffen, but now that he has left. It will only be more unsettling.

[Greystache]

You've got to laugh. The message at the end of year reviews to the senior players was they don't make enough effort with the younger players, play on their own terms, and are overall selfish.

How do they respond to accusations of being selfish? Walk out on the club. Oh the irony!!

[Dogmatic]

Enough is enough. besides the fact that so many players want to leave, his game style is lacking, he just loves hard inside players regardless of their skill level.

[Sedat]

We'd look like village idiots if we sacked him now, right in the middle of crucial trading and list planning and right after we endorsed him once again in the job. Not to mention that he still has, rightly or wrongly, 2 years still to run on his contract.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

You've got to laugh. The message at the end of year reviews to the senior players was they don't make enough effort with the younger players, play on their own terms, and are overall selfish.

How do they respond to accusations of being selfish? Walk out on the club. Oh the irony!!

Griffen was always spoken of in a pretty positive light re: younger players, though. Is he definitely included in this?

[Greystache]

Griffen was always spoken of in a pretty positive light re: younger players, though. Is he definitely included in this?

No. He just doesn't want to deal with all the bullshit politics.

[bornadog]

You've got to laugh. The message at the end of year reviews to the senior players was they don't make enough effort with the younger players, play on their own terms, and are overall selfish.

How do they respond to accusations of being selfish? Walk out on the club. Oh the irony!!
so Griffen is selfish?
when your only A grade player and captain walks there is something seriously wrong

[jeemak]

What Thompson said in his speech at the EFC Presentation night front of mind for me now.

[Mofra]

What Thompson said in his speech at the EFC Presentation night front of mind for me now.
Good point.
Thompson knows about establishing a club culture, broke a 44 year drought at Geelong.

[bulldogtragic]

Interesting. Everyone threatened to walk out if Rhode stayed. We sacked him, we kept Gilbee, West and many others.

We know better this time...

[LostDoggy]

Griffen is an absolute champion, true rolls royce - But I don't think he should have been made captain in the first place.....
Who will be captain next year?

[Remi Moses]

What Thompson said in his speech at the EFC Presentation night front of mind for me now.

Dead right .
Remember Leigh Colbert and the carry on
Would have loved the World Wide Web in 1999.

[Remi Moses]

Interesting. Everyone threatened to walk out if Rhode stayed. We sacked him, we kept Gilbee, West and many others.

We know better this time...

You can't seriously compare West and Gilbee to
Tutt and Jones .
Rohde had a better list than McCartney's got to start with.
The word early was that the tail was wagging the dog on Rohdes watch,and he had to go.

[Bulldog Revolution]

so Griffen is selfish?
when your only A grade player and captain walks there is something seriously wrong

Yes there is

I've been supportive of BMac but Griffen feels compelled to do this, then he feels the club is in an unworkable situation. Hes not a guy prone to outlandish statements so this is a big one to me.

We have a massive problem

[bulldogtragic]

You can't seriously compare West and Gilbee to
Tutt and Jones .
Rohde had a better list than McCartney's got to start with.
The word early was that the tail was wagging the dog on Rohdes watch,and he had to go.

I'm comparing Griffen to West. Cooney and Higgins to Gilbee, Jones and Tutt to other.

[Remi Moses]

I'm comparing Griffen to West. Cooney and Higgins to Gilbee, Jones and Tutt to other.

Fair enough BT.
The whole debate comparing McCartney to Rohde is just utter utter drivel.
The two lists are poles apart

[jeemak]

Fair enough BT.
The whole debate comparing McCartney to Rohde is just utter utter drivel.
The two lists are poles apart

As are the results.

[bulldogtragic]

Fair enough BT.
The whole debate comparing McCartney to Rohde is just utter utter drivel.
The two lists are poles apart

I'm not comparing people, I'm comparing circumstances. They're the same. Players go to board want coaches gone. Last times that's happened Joyce got sacked, Wallace didn't get a last game and Rhode sacked. This time the club ignored the players. It's just facts, it's not about personality or otherwise.

[Topdog]

I'm comparing Griffen to West. Cooney and Higgins to Gilbee, Jones and Tutt to other.
So you think sacking Rhode was the wrong decision?

[bulldogtragic]

So you think sacking Rhode was the wrong decision?

No, see above. I'm saying historically when many senior players go the board and ask for action the club has a history of acting with players. It didn't this time. I'm stating clear observations.

[bornadog]

As are the results.
Rhode had a better record

[Greystache]

Rhode had a better record

Rhode won 4.5 games and 5 games.

McCartney's won 5, 8, and 7.

Are you going just going to make stuff up to sound dramatic?

[chef]

Yep, Macca's 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000x better than Rhode.

[Topdog]

No, see above. I'm saying historically when many senior players go the board and ask for action the club has a history of acting with players. It didn't this time. I'm stating clear observations.

You started we have learnt our lesson which is not a clear observation it is an opinion

[chef]

Pack your bags Griffen...

[bulldogtragic]

You started we have learnt our lesson which is not a clear observation it is an opinion

Clearly the lesson is we won't sack coaches despite players wanting this to happen. Read PG's statement. We are not doing what we previously have done as a club.

[Sedat]

Clearly the lesson is we won't sack coaches despite players wanting this to happen. Read PG's statement. We are not doing what we previously have done as a club.
When all the dust settles, BMac can have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about the level of support he has received from our board.

[jeemak]

Rhode had a better record

In which respect?

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tc-western-bulldogs

[always right]

When all the dust settles, BMac can have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about the level of support he has received from our board.

I thought you meant this board at first....then I realised.:o

[Remi Moses]

In which respect?

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/tc-western-bulldogs

He's a players man Jeemak.

[SonofScray]

When all the dust settles, BMac can have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about the level of support he has received from our board.

Agree. This is the Club taking a different approach. Come hell or high water, the Club will walk the line it has drawn for itself. I'm rattled at today's news, but really excited at the prospect of this Club, finally, setting the agenda and doing what it said it would do. The tail does not wag the dog.

[anfo27]

You've got to laugh. The message at the end of year reviews to the senior players was they don't make enough effort with the younger players, play on their own terms, and are overall selfish.

How do they respond to accusations of being selfish? Walk out on the club. Oh the irony!!

Cant disagree with that, think its pretty spot on for most of the senior players we have but not griff. After hearing the president though he is clearly thinking of himself. Captain has to be all about team and talking to GWS behind our back after agreeing to work with bmac to sort out the issues is treason.

[Topdog]

Clearly the lesson is we won't sack coaches despite players wanting this to happen. Read PG's statement. We are not doing what we previously have done as a club.

No that isn't a lesson at all, it is a completely distant set of circumstances. Rhode was sacked because he was terrible.

[LostDoggy]

What a day. I was sitting in a training meeting, being prepared to learn nothing about document manager, or some crap, when this news came through. I proceeded to get that uneasy buzzing feeling in my stomach. It soon turned to heavy breathing, the walls closing in, suddenly coffee didn't taste so good and being told to click here, then here, then here, then over there, followed by there, just wasn't making sense in a productive manner when I was already used to the old way of doing things. Why change?

So, why change? The old method is working. It will work. BMac has my backing.

[azabob]

Tony Sheahan (a Sydney Jurno) tweeted at 8.48pm tonight

"@westernbulldogs coach Brendan McCartney's position as senior coach maybe untenable by end of tonight. Rumours swirling he will be outsed"

[Doc26]

Tony Sheahan (a Sydney Jurno) tweeted at 8.48pm tonight

"@westernbulldogs coach Brandan McCartney's position as senior coach maybe untenable by end of tonight. Rumours swirling he will be outsed"

Let's expose this Brandan character and then off with his head.