Pack your bags McCartney...

[The Cowshed]

I'm sick hearing the spin, the crap about how we should be doing this and that, sick of the contested ball focus.

The coach has got us into this position. He has swayed the recruiting staff to go after the same type of player that we already have...slow midfielders who can't kick. Does he teach them anything at training. I don't see it on the field.

What was with our handball tonight...trigger happy handball. It's because he has a team full of players who can't run...all they can do is handball...it's the leading root of most of our problems. I could go on but I won't bore you...we as supporters are already suffering from that pathetic display.

Time to go coach. Make way for the next person.

[bulldogtragic]

Man up PG.

[Ghost Dog]

Who is PG?

[The Underdog]

I'm sick hearing the spin, the crap about how we should be doing this and that, sick of the contested ball focus.

The coach has got us into this position. He has swayed the recruiting staff to go after the same type of player that we already have...slow midfielders who can't kick. Does he teach them anything at training. I don't see it on the field.

What was with our handball tonight...trigger happy handball. It's because he has a team full of players who can't run...all they can do is handball...it's the leading root of most of our problems. I could go on but I won't bore you...we as supporters are already suffering from that pathetic display.

Time to go coach. Make way for the next person.

Do you really think our playing list issues are only a result of the last 2 years of recruiting? And how are Stringer & Macrae the same type of player we already have. Our troubles have been building for longer than that?

[chef]

As much Eade, Fantasia and Claytons fault as anyones

[GVGjr]

I'm sick hearing the spin, the crap about how we should be doing this and that, sick of the contested ball focus.


Disagree, we need to build the club on this. It doesn't need to be the main focus but it is one of the right things to focus on. Good clubs have that ethic.



The coach has got us into this position. He has swayed the recruiting staff to go after the same type of player that we already have...slow midfielders who can't kick. Does he teach them anything at training. I don't see it on the field.


Did this once from what I know. We have a list manager in place now and I believe he will be making the calls.



What was with our handball tonight...trigger happy handball. It's because he has a team full of players who can't run...all they can do is handball...it's the leading root of most of our problems. I could go on but I won't bore you...we as supporters are already suffering from that pathetic display.


Agree, it was a very poor night for skill execution.



Time to go coach. Make way for the next person.

Need to give him the full season.

[bulldogtragic]

Who is PG?
Peter Gordon.

President isn't all smiles and PR. it's doing what is needed no matter the cost.

[Remi Moses]

I'm sick hearing the spin, the crap about how we should be doing this and that, sick of the contested ball focus.

The coach has got us into this position. He has swayed the recruiting staff to go after the same type of player that we already have...slow midfielders who can't kick. Does he teach them anything at training. I don't see it on the field.

What was with our handball tonight...trigger happy handball. It's because he has a team full of players who can't run...all they can do is handball...it's the leading root of most of our problems. I could go on but I won't bore you...we as supporters are already suffering from that pathetic display.

Time to go coach. Make way for the next person.

Yes, and appoint someone else and after we're struggling next year sack another coach.
Fair Dinkum some people.While we're up there lets thank Scott Clayton for leaving a complete hole in 2006. That's the reason we're struggling

[GVGjr]

Peter Gordon.

President isn't all smiles and PR. it's doing what is needed no matter the cost.

He's moved on coaches before. Not sure why you are making the reference about a smiling president.

[jeemak]

The diabolical mess that has left us with Boyd, Cross, Murphy, Giansiracusa, Cooney, Griffen, Morris, Picken, Minson and a couple of others as a legacy of the best part of ten years of list development is our issue.

I'm still not sold on the coach, but the issues are legacy issues more than anything else.

[bulldogtragic]

He's moved on coaches before. Not sure why you are making the reference about a smiling president.
Just highlighting we need real leadership, and I think he's the man to do what is needed. I agree G.

[Remi Moses]

As much Eade, Fantasia and Claytons fault as anyones

Dead right. Players from 06 would in their prime right now.
Everitt, Ward from 07! Look I'm still unsure on the coach but sacking him now shouts panic stations.

[GVGjr]

I'm still not sold on the coach, but the issues are legacy issues more than anything else.

Fully agree. He inherited an unbalanced list with poor skills and very one paced. He might not be the man to fix it but we are at least playing the youngsters.

[Mantis]

Need to give him the full season.

Yep.

He said improvement will come in the 2nd half of 2013... If it doesn't we will be negligent to not look at his position.

[GVGjr]

Yep.

He said improvement will come in the 2nd half of 2013... If it doesn't we will be negligent to not look at his position.

All positions should be under review if we don't perform better in the 2nd half of the season.

We have a lot to but we have to at least see it through.

[Greystache]

The diabolical mess that has left us with Boyd, Cross, Murphy, Giansiracusa, Cooney, Griffen, Morris, Picken, Minson and a couple of others as a legacy of the best part of ten years of list development is our issue.

I'm still not sold on the coach, but the issues are legacy issues more than anything else.

Exactly. We recruited with no strategy or long term vision and are paying for it now. I'm not sold on the coach either but Ross Lyon would struggle with this list.

[The Cowshed]

I know the club won't sack him, we simply can't afford it but his coaching mantra is affecting the way we are playing. For too long he has one focus (contested ball) to the detriment of the rest of our game. Our skills are deplorable and our coach shows no imagination...there's no thought of moving Roughy forward or Jones back...no taking a chance to win the game.

Look at the stats, we've won at least half the contested ball in games lost because he simply floods the contest, so we have to win the ball and then we have no-one on the spread because they're all round the ball and when we do get it forward we hang our forwards out to dry being outnumbered.

[GVGjr]

I know the club won't sack him, we simply can't afford it but his coaching mantra is affecting the way we are playing. For too long he has one focus (contested ball) to the detriment of the rest of our game. Our skills are deplorable and our coach shows no imagination...there's no thought of moving Roughy forward or Jones back...no taking a chance to win the game.

Look at the stats, we've won at least half the contested ball in games lost because he simply floods the contest, so we have to win the ball and then we have no-one on the spread because they're all round the ball and when we do get it forward we hang our forwards out to dry being outnumbered.

It could very well be the other way with skills and running but the foundation of contested football isn't wrong.

We will add the other pieces but we had to be a side that had a stronger focus on contested football.

[boydogs]

Changing the coach would be disruptive and undermine the path he is on. He needs to be given time to develop other facets of our game, which he has acknowledged is the next step.

He has taken us to top 5 in contested ball, which is excellent for a such a young side.

[Ghost Dog]

I know the club won't sack him, we simply can't afford it but his coaching mantra is affecting the way we are playing. For too long he has one focus (contested ball) to the detriment of the rest of our game. Our skills are deplorable and our coach shows no imagination...there's no thought of moving Roughy forward or Jones back...no taking a chance to win the game.

Look at the stats, we've won at least half the contested ball in games lost because he simply floods the contest, so we have to win the ball and then we have no-one on the spread because they're all round the ball and when we do get it forward we hang our forwards out to dry being outnumbered.

He did swtich Roughy to forward a few weeks ago didn't he?
Re-arranging deck chairs. Just need to be better with the ball.
I think MJP said it once - it's entertainment. That is a boring way to spend 2 hours, what I just saw. Take the game on a bit more or forget it. All this stuffing around with the pill, only to kick a point from straight in front.
We play better with Boyd and Gia out of the side. Sorry lads.

[GVGjr]

Changing the coach would be disruptive and undermine the path he is on. He needs to be given time to develop other facets of our game, which he has acknowledged is the next step.

He has taken us to top 5 in contested ball, which is excellent for a such a young side.

Agreed. The club should review all things at the end of the season not now.

[The Cowshed]

Yeah, we simply win the contested ball because we flood the contest with numbers which hurts us when it gets out. They are false and misleading stats...

[Mantis]

Changing the coach would be disruptive and undermine the path he is on. He needs to be given time to develop other facets of our game, which he has acknowledged is the next step.

He has taken us to top 5 in contested ball, which is excellent for a such a young side.

Where were we rated for this stat in 2011? I know we were top 5 in our PF years of 2008-10.

And our core midfield group are pretty experienced.

[Ghost Dog]

Peter Gordon.

President isn't all smiles and PR. it's doing what is needed no matter the cost.

Think all posts after a bad loss need to be taken with a grain of salt....:)
But we were awful to watch tonight. We showed enough talent to show how little very good talent we have...if this makes sense.
Hack and battle it into the forward line, only to cough it up...time and bloody time again.

I actually did not enjoy this game as a spectacle. It was boring, tiresome, with some patches of Ok footy.
When a short dash from JJ or a snap from Stringer becomes your highlight, woopdy doo.

[AndrewP6]

Where were we rated for this stat in 2011? I know we were top 5 in our PF years of 2008-10.
.

Eighth, according to this: http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_rankings?year=2011&type=TA&sby=23&advv=Y

[Remi Moses]

Imagine BF:eek:
They'd have a contract out on McCartney by now.

[Mantis]

Eighth, according to this: http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_team_rankings?year=2011&type=TA&sby=23&advv=Y

Ok... So we have moved up a couple of spots in this area, but have shown very little improvement in other facets of the game... That has to change.

[AndrewP6]

Ok... So we have moved up a couple of spots in this area, but have shown very little improvement in other facets of the game... That has to change.

Agreed.

[LostDog]

Peter Rhode mark 2

[LostDoggy]

Peter Rhode mark 2

Fair dinkum...

P Rhode - came from Melbourne's losing culture
Oversaw recruitment of P Street, A Morgan, S Koops, J Rawlins...and L Veale
Oversaw loss of one of our best players in N Brown while at his peak
Trade picks that netted H Scotland, D Mundy...
Oversaw no performance when R Murphy, L Gilbee, B Johnson, S Giansiracusa were peaking and R Smith, C Grant, S West were playing...

B McCartney
Widely regarded by respected AFL figures as not just a good coach but a great coach.
Comes from a high performance culture at the most successful team in the modern era
Oversaw departure of J Sherman, N Djerkurra, and a bunch of spuds that haven't kicked on
Traded Lake at the end of his career for effectively Hrovat
Has inherited an absolute trainwreck of a list.
Part of recruitment of two of our most promising juniors in years
Has overseen one of the biggest improvements in an AFL player I have seen (Minson)

You really think McCartney is the same as Rhode....???? REALLY????

[Mantis]

Fair dinkum...

P Rhode - came from Melbourne's losing culture
Oversaw recruitment of P Street, A Morgan, S Koops, J Rawlins...and L Veale
Oversaw loss of one of our best players in N Brown while at his peak
Trade picks that netted H Scotland, D Mundy...
Oversaw no performance when R Murphy, L Gilbee, B Johnson, S Giansiracusa were peaking and R Smith, C Grant, S West were playing...

B McCartney
Widely regarded by respected AFL figures as not just a good coach but a great coach.
Comes from a high performance culture at the most successful team in the modern era
Oversaw departure of J Sherman, N Djerkurra, and a bunch of spuds that haven't kicked on
Traded Lake at the end of his career for effectively Hrovat
Has inherited an absolute trainwreck of a list.
Part of recruitment of two of our most promising juniors in years
Has overseen one of the biggest improvements in an AFL player I have seen (Minson)

You really think McCartney is the same as Rhode....???? REALLY????

Thats all reads well in McCartney's favour, but rightly or wrongly coaches get rated on one thing... The W/L column.

Rohde - 45 games coached - 9 wins - 1 draw - 35 losses - 21.1%

McCartney - 30 games coached - 6 wins - 24 losses - 20%

You were saying?

[Dancin' Douggy]

I think we have a very weak and unbalanced list.
Before the season started I penciled us in for the wooden spoon below Gold Coast and GWS.

I just can't blame McCartney for our current plight.

[LostDoggy]

Thats all reads well in McCartney's favour, but rightly or wrongly coaches get rated on one thing... The W/L column.

Rohde - 45 games coached - 9 wins - 1 draw - 35 losses - 21.1%

McCartney - 30 games coached - 6 wins - 24 losses - 20%

You were saying?

I back most people in to be more rational than simply looking at win loss. Hate to say it but the two best coaches in the game (in my view) talk about process and win loss doesn't really matter (Malthouse and Lyon).

Secondly if Geelong had knee jerked and sacked Thompson based on win loss who knows if they would have had the success they did.

Conversely many Essendon supporters I know believe Sheedy cost Essendon at least one and maybe two flags due to his poor performance in the late nineties and early noughties, yet his win loss in that period was fantastic.

I give you and many here more credit than simply looking at win loss. Leave that for the Damian Barrett's of the world.

[LostDoggy]

I think we have a very weak and unbalanced list.
Before the season started I penciled us in for the wooden spoon below Gold Coast and GWS.

I just can't blame McCartney for our current plight.

Well said. I had us second bottom. Looking more like third bottom. This year I am looking for incremental improvement, and I am seeing it mostly, despite the losses.

[bornadog]

I back most people in to be more rational than simply looking at win loss. Hate to say it but the two best coaches in the game (in my view) talk about process and win loss doesn't really matter (Malthouse and Lyon).

Secondly if Geelong had knee jerked and sacked Thompson based on win loss who knows if they would have had the success they did.

Conversely many Essendon supporters I know believe Sheedy cost Essendon at least one and maybe two flags due to his poor performance in the late nineties and early noughties, yet his win loss in that period was fantastic.

I give you and many here more credit than simply looking at win loss. Leave that for the Damian Barrett's of the world.

One big difference, Malthouse, Lyon and Thompson know how to coach.

[GVGjr]

One big difference, Malthouse, Lyon and Thompson know how to coach.

You didn't want Malthouse to come back to us did you?

[bornadog]

You didn't want Malthouse to come back to us did you?

Not sure your point here?

[Sedat]

Secondly if Geelong had knee jerked and sacked Thompson based on win loss who knows if they would have had the success they did.
I've heard this argument ad nauseum to explain/justify our current situation. Show me the period where Bomber Thompson won 1 game in 19, or Clarko for that matter (another one used repeatedly as an example). Thompson almost lost his job after a 10 win season.

I don't think anybody on here would begrudge a 5-7 win season whilst in rebuild mode, but the virtual equivalent of a 1 win season block of results is unacceptable on every conceivable measure. The sad thing is that we haven't even been close in any of those losses - no heartbreaking last minute losses, we've been outplayed by everyone we have come up against (except for a holidaying Brisbane in Round 1).

[The Bulldogs Bite]

No point in getting rid of him now.

Should be given until the end of the year and if there isn't noticeable improvement, we need to head hunt an established coach such as Roos.

My concern is whether things will get worse. Murphy, Boyd, Gia, Cross and Morris all have 0-2 years left and despite their varying performances, are still basically carrying this side.

I worry we'll emulate Melbourne.

[Remi Moses]

Peter Rhode mark 2

Your're having a lend surely?
Rhodes list was a hell of a lot better than Mccartneys got!
Can some posters take their B/S back to Big Footy.

[Remi Moses]

No point in getting rid of him now.

Should be given until the end of the year and if there isn't noticeable improvement, we need to head hunt an established coach such as Roos.

My concern is whether things will get worse. Murphy, Boyd, Gia, Cross and Morris all have 0-2 years left and despite their varying performances, are still basically carrying this side.

I worry we'll emulate Melbourne.

Didn't see Macrae today? Minsons been good.
Boyd's been average at best. As has Cross.
Morris and Murphy are going to be hard to replace but the others aren't.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Didn't see Macrae today? Minsons been good.
Boyd's been average at best. As has Cross.
Morris and Murphy are going to be hard to replace but the others aren't.

Haven't watched the game, but even though Macrae/Stringer look good, we need a lot more than that.

I think Minson has been very good, still has a few years left so I didn't include him in that above group.

It's not so much that they are "hard to replace" -- that implies they are still very good players having big impacts. They aren't -- what I mean is that they are (at this stage) more proven/capable than our raw kids so the worst (short term pain, if you can call it that) could be yet to come when they retire in the next 0-24 months.

Hope I'm making some sort of sense.

[Hotdog60]

Macrae seems like one of our few players that will move the ball to a player that has space, I saw him a couple of times under the punp and could have easily gave off the 2 metre handball but used the 6 metre option to create space.

[ledge]

Did Macrae have one bad possession? what I saw of him was amazing, his time and delivery were exceptional.

[Go_Dogs]

I'm away so didn't see the game but was very disappointed to see we lost by 5 goals. The pressure on the coaches must increase as that is the nature of this industry where short term results have such a high premium placed on them.

I think it would be an amateur, reactionary and short sighted decision to move the coach on now, but we simply have to see continued improvement for the balance of the year. The positives with the younger guys is there, but we need to start translating that to a better TEAM performance. We need to be smarter and more efficient. We need to fast track Hrovat, Hunter and Prudden into the senior side, we also need to get games into Talia and Roberts quickly.

Footy is a funny game, we seem miles off at the moment but things can click and change quickly.

[firstdogonthemoon]

It is far too soon to talk about moving the coach on.
There is no question these are dark times, but Bmac didn't inherit much of a list.
I doubt there will be much joy for us this year at all.
Even so I don't think it is helpful to just focus on W/L ratio while we are rebuilding.

But a win would be nice.

[Go_Dogs]

It is far too soon to talk about moving the coach on.
There is no question these are dark times, but Bmac didn't inherit much of a list.
I doubt there will be much joy for us this year at all.
Even so I don't think it is helpful to just focus on W/L ratio while we are rebuilding.

But a win would be nice.

Totally agree FDOTM, good contribution.

We as supporters must do what we do best, stay solid during this difficult time and back the players and staff to turn it around.

It can often be the sign of the card having been stamped, but I hope we can really show the public/media this week the club is united, we believe in the systems we have put in place - as the President said at the start of the year it won't be easy, there's plenty of pain to come. I think we need to be reminded of this.

[Mantis]

It is far too soon to talk about moving the coach on.
There is no question these are dark times, but Bmac didn't inherit much of a list.
I doubt there will be much joy for us this year at all.
Even so I don't think it is helpful to just focus on W/L ratio while we are rebuilding.

But a win would be nice.

If we were all focusing on just w/l we would having been baying foor blood some time ago.

The lack of improvement in both our players, game style and tactical nous is what I find most concerning.... I know a 're-build' takes time, but to me it looks like we are going backwards rather than forward.

[G-Mo77]

The lack of improvement in both our players, game style and tactical nous is what I find most concerning.... I know a 're-build' takes time, but to me it looks like we are going backwards rather than forward.

This is one of my biggest concerns. I'm a huge fan of Libba but he's been ordinary lately and I don't think the opposition is putting any extra work into him. Dahlhaus can't do anything wrong in most eyes, his season has been poor. Then there are quite a few in the VFL who have gone backwards as well although there is a case they weren't that good to begin with.

[bornadog]

The title of this thread is ridiculous.

Lets wait till the end of the year and assess where we are at.

[firstdogonthemoon]

If we were all focusing on just w/l we would having been baying foor blood some time ago.

The lack of improvement in both our players, game style and tactical nous is what I find most concerning.... I know a 're-build' takes time, but to me it looks like we are going backwards rather than forward.

Fine, disagree with me then see if I care!

Seriously though, what would you have us (them) do differently? I know you have stated this elsewhere but i would like it in nice dot points so i can stick it in a cartoon please.

Thanks

You're welcome

[ratsmac]

The title of this thread is ridiculous.

Lets wait till the end of the year and assess where we are at.

Amen.

[ledge]

This is one of my biggest concerns. I'm a huge fan of Libba but he's been ordinary lately and I don't think the opposition is putting any extra work into him. Dahlhaus can't do anything wrong in most eyes, his season has been poor. Then there are quite a few in the VFL who have gone backwards as well although there is a case they weren't that good to begin with.

Obviously you haven't been watching Libba close enough , I think he is rated second in the league in a lot of stats.

[westdog54]

Thats all reads well in McCartney's favour, but rightly or wrongly coaches get rated on one thing... The W/L column.

Rohde - 45 games coached - 9 wins - 1 draw - 35 losses - 21.1%

McCartney - 30 games coached - 6 wins - 24 losses - 20%

You were saying?

So if we beat Melbourne twice and GWS they'll be on par by seasons end, with Macca's list having significantly more upside and having inherited a train wreck.

The way I see it Macca's got a way to go before being declared Rhode Mk 2

[G-Mo77]

Obviously you haven't been watching Libba close enough , I think he is rated second in the league in a lot of stats.

I do watch him very closely. His last few weeks have been ordinary. He was OK last night I guess but I expect a bit more than that.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

The Cowshed and Bulldogtragic, we'd be better off if you two packed your bags than BMac. You're better suited to Richmond.

[Ghost Dog]

It is far too soon to talk about moving the coach on.
There is no question these are dark times, but Bmac didn't inherit much of a list.
I doubt there will be much joy for us this year at all.
Even so I don't think it is helpful to just focus on W/L ratio while we are rebuilding.

But a win would be nice.

The players on our list are capable of a better game than that. We should be getting more miles per gallon with what we have. It's not a case of draft faults or anything/. We performed well below our best. Why?
These guys are not paid peanuts. When they stuff up basics it makes one wonder about the effectiveness of the coaching team. Either they are not teaching them correctly, or the message is not being delivered in the right way.
Basics. We just had to get them right last night and we would have won.

[bulldogtragic]

The Cowshed and Bulldogtragic, we'd be better off if you two packed your bags than BMac. You're better suited to Richmond.
Sure. Better conform to groupthink than have different opinions..... Really pathetic crap your dribbling. I am free to think and post what I think. If you don't like it debate the issue not the poster. Petty name calling and petty insults don't do anyone justice.

If I don't like it, accept that others have freedom to disagree. I disagree with you, but I won't stoop to the bottom level of saying you should follow another club or that your a town crier etc. WOOF exists to have rational debate over our club, that includes disagreement from time to time. Live with it or go elsewhere.

Let's agree to disagree.

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Sure. Better conform to groupthink than have different opinions..... Really pathetic crap your dribbling. I am free to think and post what I think. If you don't like it debate the issue not the poster. Petty name calling and petty insults don't do anyone justice.

If I don't like it, accept that others have freedom to disagree. I disagree with you, but I won't stoop to the bottom level of saying you should follow another club or that your a town crier etc. WOOF exists to have rational debate over our club, that includes disagreement from time to time. Live with it or go elsewhere.

Let's agree to disagree.

Diversity of opinion is good. So is support rather than anxiety. Is it diversity of opinion that you are supporting or lack of faith? To believe that calling for the dismissal of the club appointed coach is representing admirable non conformity to WOOF opinions is not really the full story. This thread is just alarmist and there is satisfaction in being alarmist when you’re hurting from defeat.
I do not want you and Cowshed to barrack for anybody but the Bulldogs but suggesting a taste of your own medicine makes you realise the severity of the sentence you are passing on Bmac and the Dogs.

[Ghost Dog]

Look, it's a stoopid thread title, ( complete fantasy stuff ) but do we really want to ask people to leave the boards just for posting something like this? That sort of stuff used to happen when I first joined this board. It's 200% better now, and full credit to the mods and other posters.


Dont sack the coach. But make him sit with me in some dingy pub in Norlane watching a replay, to that tune of that f^^##@ saccharine Gold C&$ts song :)

Fair dinkum, sounds like a wiggles song.

[Remi Moses]

After Rohde finished we went from 5 wins to 11.
I guarantee if another coach took over we wouldn't improve markedly.
The difference is the list he had was markedly better than McCartney has.
The whole left from that disasterous 06 07 period is killing us.
Lets all take a deep breath and just give the hysteria a break

[AndrewP6]

Fair dinkum, sounds like a wiggles song.

Now now, some of the Wiggles stuff is good.:)

[The Pie Man]

This is one of my biggest concerns. I'm a huge fan of Libba but he's been ordinary lately and I don't think the opposition is putting any extra work into him. Dahlhaus can't do anything wrong in most eyes, his season has been poor. Then there are quite a few in the VFL who have gone backwards as well although there is a case they weren't that good to begin with.

Off topic, but I don't think anyone will mind.

It seems Libba looks to handball almost everytime he takes possession, and regularly puts teamates under the pump.* Especially frustrating when he's running to his left peg and then handballs back the other way and kills momentum. Is it just me?

(*Just looked it up, he had 7 HB to 13 kicks - which is an ok balance....so perhaps I'm focusing on just a few instances)

[bulldogsthru&thru]

the drafting under the Eade era is what is crippling us. McCartney has inherited a train wreck. It's gonna take a long time to undo the damage done over 5 years. We are lucky to have gathered Wallis and Libba as FS in '10 and to strike a bit of rookie gold in Dahl and JJ as otherwise we would be in even dire straights.

But we have only 14 players on our list out of 49 drafted from the 06,07,08,09 and '10 drafts and that includes NO players remaining from the 06 draft. Its fair to say the 06 and 07 drafts were our worst, but 09 was also pretty bad too considering whilst some of the players are still on our list, the talent is below average. Think Howard, Markovic, Tutt

[HOSE B ROMERO]

Has anyone seen my hat?

[BornInDroopSt'54]

Has anyone seen my hat?

Yes you left it at the coven.

[Greystache]

the drafting under the Eade era is what is crippling us. McCartney has inherited a train wreck. It's gonna take a long time to undo the damage done over 5 years. We are lucky to have gathered Wallis and Libba as FS in '10 and to strike a bit of rookie gold in Dahl and JJ as otherwise we would be in even dire straights.

But we have only 14 players on our list out of 49 drafted from the 06,07,08,09 and '10 drafts and that includes NO players remaining from the 06 draft. Its fair to say the 06 and 07 drafts were our worst, but 09 was also pretty bad too considering whilst some of the players are still on our list, the talent is below average. Think Howard, Markovic, Tutt

You can add Eade's other year of 2005 to that list too- Higgins and Addison is all that's left. Of the teams in 2008-2010 nearly all of our club developed players were drafted under Rhode or Wallace and we're paying for 6 years of poor recruiting.

[Maddog37]

It just illustrates we are in fact starting from scratch in terms of building the list again.

[LostDoggy]

I'm backing him (Brendan). Now is not the time to cut and run.

[Ghost Dog]

the drafting under the Eade era is what is crippling us. McCartney has inherited a train wreck. It's gonna take a long time to undo the damage done over 5 years. We are lucky to have gathered Wallis and Libba as FS in '10 and to strike a bit of rookie gold in Dahl and JJ as otherwise we would be in even dire straights.

But we have only 14 players on our list out of 49 drafted from the 06,07,08,09 and '10 drafts and that includes NO players remaining from the 06 draft. Its fair to say the 06 and 07 drafts were our worst, but 09 was also pretty bad too considering whilst some of the players are still on our list, the talent is below average. Think Howard, Markovic, Tutt

Well, it's part of the story. But, we had a team that dominated in the first Qtr V the suns.
We gave it to them with some poor decision making.
Have some very capable players who are not really in top form.
I'd say none of Boyd, Gia, Griffen, Picken, Stevens are in top form at the moment.

[The Cowshed]

I reckon the training sessions must be totally based around game plan or match planning for the next game because it sure as hell doesn't go towards their skill sets.

Take Libba for example, he storms out of the centre break but because he can't kick adequately on his right side the ball slews off his boot. Morris is a total right sided player, Wallis would rather go to ground to feed a handball out, a la Crossy, than keep his feet and stay in the contest, Roughy at times plays the wrong side of the forward...there are just so many glaringly obvious basic skills that could be corrected during training by the coaching staff. If I saw improvement in some of these basic fundamentals of football...I might think we are on the right path.

[Sedat]

Of the teams in 2008-2010 nearly all of our club developed players were drafted under Rhode or Wallace and we're paying for 6 years of poor recruiting.
Do you think our recruiting from 2000-2002 was any better? Jordan McMahon, Sam Power, Tim Walsh, Cam Faulkner - not exactly a roll-call of elite first round selections there. If we nailed even a couple of these selections we win a flag and possibly 2. As for the Rohde era, every single player drafted in before his arrival went backwards in their development and many of them were borderline scrapheap material before the new coach arrived. So in effect almost every year of drafting was poor from 2000-2009 - how we got so close to a premiership, with a clearly inferior list to the contenders of the day, was an absolute miracle.

[The Cowshed]

Do you think our recruiting from 2000-2002 was any better? Jordan McMahon, Sam Power, Tim Walsh, Cam Faulkner - not exactly a roll-call of elite first round selections there. If we nailed even a couple of these selections we win a flag and possibly 2. As for the Rohde era, every single player drafted in before his arrival went backwards in their development and many of them were borderline scrapheap material before the new coach arrived. So in effect almost every year of drafting was poor from 2000-2009 - how we got so close to a premiership, with a clearly inferior list to the contenders of the day, was an absolute miracle.

Yes, we seem to target the wrong type of player...Clayton is not on my christmas card list.

[Ghost Dog]

Do you think our recruiting from 2000-2002 was any better? Jordan McMahon, Sam Power, Tim Walsh, Cam Faulkner - not exactly a roll-call of elite first round selections there. If we nailed even a couple of these selections we win a flag and possibly 2. As for the Rohde era, every single player drafted in before his arrival went backwards in their development and many of them were borderline scrapheap material before the new coach arrived. So in effect almost every year of drafting was poor from 2000-2009 - how we got so close to a premiership, with a clearly inferior list to the contenders of the day, was an absolute miracle.

Was it a miracle? Doesn't it just illustrate a point? Team sport. Players that stick together and work to a solid plan go places. The Swans have shown this. St Kilda have shown this. Freo have shown this ( minus Griffen, Sandilands and Pavlich, they still are able to jag a win. They know when to get drawn to the contest and when to cover. They have a smart system in place and like at St Kilda probably, Lyon has taught them a tackle inside 50 is as good as a goal )

[jeemak]

Do you think our recruiting from 2000-2002 was any better? Jordan McMahon, Sam Power, Tim Walsh, Cam Faulkner - not exactly a roll-call of elite first round selections there. If we nailed even a couple of these selections we win a flag and possibly 2. As for the Rohde era, every single player drafted in before his arrival went backwards in their development and many of them were borderline scrapheap material before the new coach arrived. So in effect almost every year of drafting was poor from 2000-2009 - how we got so close to a premiership, with a clearly inferior list to the contenders of the day, was an absolute miracle.

I suppose it shows that you don't have to get drafting and list management perfectly right across the years, rather, a combination of factors need to come together for you to be in the mix at some stage, and you just have to be good across a number of areas as we were during 2008-2010. Unfortunately we were a bit thin on resources, and our drafting and list management left us short, but not by much.

There's absolutely no question the introduction of Rodney Eade provided a significant spur to our football club, and one that it definitely needed at the time. I remember Bob's article when Eade was sacked, giving him credit for making a bunch of players believe they could compete. I look at our list as it stands now, and I don't see the capacity for someone to come along and provide that type of impetus to the playing group. The foundation just isn't there right now.

We really need to build through early draft picks (and nail them), and make sure there's nothing left unchecked in terms of the resources required to make the most of the talent we bring into the club.

Being brutal with cutting the list is paramount as well. We're at the back end of the senior player mentor approach, and we need to move to another phase to push forwards. If the time hasn't come, where our senior players aren't providing the appropriate output, coupled with mentoring then it has to be coming soon.

[MrMahatma]

You can add Eade's other year of 2005 to that list too- Higgins and Addison is all that's left. Of the teams in 2008-2010 nearly all of our club developed players were drafted under Rhode or Wallace and we're paying for 6 years of poor recruiting.
Isn't it Clayton to blame?

Everyone seems to blame Eade for bad drafting. Am I missing something?

[jeemak]

Isn't it Clayton to blame?

Everyone seems to blame Eade for bad drafting. Am I missing something?

At that particular time as far as I can gather, there were insufficient resources at the club for one person to have complete control over the clubs recruitment and or list management.

In such times it would be reasonable to suggest that conflicting interests weren't necessarily managed as well as they could have been.

[LostDoggy]

Lets give him a 3 year contract and then kick him out after 1 and a half years because we aren't 8-0

[AndrewP6]

Lets give him a 3 year contract and then kick him out after 1 and a half years because we aren't 8-0

That's not the issue. We've been humiliated in some games. Even in yesterday's game, the way in which we lost was worse than the end result. We've had one aspect of a gameplan drilled ad nauseaum into the players and supporters, in around 18 months.

There've been numerous games/situations in games where he has been either unwilling or unable to find a way to change what was happening, and some match day selections have been terrible.

[LostDoggy]

I continue to be a supporter of Macca and his approach to educating the players.

As has been pointed out we really do struggle at times to get the ball back when the opposition have it. When we have to highlight Macrae as showing us how to create space and have composure, then I think we are struggling.

Footy these days appears to be run at all costs and keep the ball moving, come back through the corridor. We were stop start last year and have been in quarters this year. I see we are trying to keep the ball moving now. It's just that we are not so good at it yet, and certainly not for a whole game. Part of that is inexperience, part because we haven't enough players who can create space, gain separation, position themselves to advantage, and part because we have players who seem to be fatiguing in games or whose skill level is exposed under pressure.

We were also beaten by the inability of our tall markers to have any impact on the game. We barely took a strong mark for the night, more often dropping marks and fumbling the ball. I don't know if it was the lights, over anxiousness, or if we just haven't got players who can take strong marks consistently.

And we also got done again by sometimes allowing the ball to get out the back of a contest.

I'm putting this one down to we just had a bad night. Even the bounce of the ball seem to evade us.

[jeemak]

Good post, as usual metal.

[Remi Moses]

Do you think our recruiting from 2000-2002 was any better? Jordan McMahon, Sam Power, Tim Walsh, Cam Faulkner - not exactly a roll-call of elite first round selections there. If we nailed even a couple of these selections we win a flag and possibly 2. As for the Rohde era, every single player drafted in before his arrival went backwards in their development and many of them were borderline scrapheap material before the new coach arrived. So in effect almost every year of drafting was poor from 2000-2009 - how we got so close to a premiership, with a clearly inferior list to the contenders of the day, was an absolute miracle.

I'm still staggered he gets the "master recruiter" tag.
Your first round pick at least has to be nailed as a given.
Abject fail in that sense.Look at the actual facts. Had an enormous amount of concessions when he took over Brisbane. Then got the cream of the 2010 draft with GC.

[Mantis]

I'm still staggered he gets the "master recruiter" tag.
Your first round pick at least has to be nailed as a given.
Abject fail in that sense.Look at the actual facts. Had an enormous amount of concessions when he took over Brisbane. Then got the cream of the 2010 draft with GC.

Clayton lived off one very good draft (1999), some good rookie picks and his ability to negotiate a contract at our club... His ND recruiting looking back was poor, but he did have a team around him, but low funds meant ours wasn't as big as others.

[FrediKanoute]

Agreed. The club should review all things at the end of the season not now.

I want to state that I am not in the sack the coach camp, far from it. I do think though that something is not right. I believe that Gordonn should hold a review now, not at the seasons end so that changes can be implemented ahead of the 2014 pre-season/drafting period.

My gut feel is that we have a rookie coach with the right idea, but possibly the wrong methodology of getting the message across, If this is the case then its not fatal, but could be fixed with the appointment of a guiding hand assistant/football director.

[GVGjr]

Isn't it Clayton to blame?

Everyone seems to blame Eade for bad drafting. Am I missing something?

I think it's split. Clayton drafted players and worked the contracts etc.
There was some questionable short term list management decisions that I don't think reflect that well on the combination of Eade and Fantasia.

[Mantis]

I think it's split. Clayton drafted players and worked the contracts etc.
There was some questionable short term list management decisions that I don't think reflect that well on the combination of Eade and Fantasia.

I know we are going over old ground, and you've probably mentioned these elsewhere, but what do you see as the 3 biggest stuff-ups the Eade/ Fantasia combo made with regard to list management?

[Ghost Dog]

I know we are going over old ground, and you've probably mentioned these elsewhere, but what do you see as the 3 biggest stuff-ups the Eade/ Fantasia combo made with regard to list management?

Bit off the tread isn't that?

McCartney is starting to sound a bit like Dean Baily. Unflappable, Calm, logical, but are they listening?

[SlimPickens]

McCartney is starting to sound a bit like Dean Baily. Unflappable, Calm, logical, but are they listening?

True and haven't Melbourne benefitted by giving Bailey the arse!

[Ghost Dog]

True and haven't Melbourne benefitted by giving Bailey the arse!

Yeah, fair call Slim. Good point. lumping it on McCartney is the easy angle. What is going on with the the coaching team as a whole?

[Topdog]

Dahlhaus can't do anything wrong in most eyes, his season has been poor. .

Has had a very very poor season IMO and should be close to being dropped

[Throughandthrough]

I'd be interested to read what McCartney's KPI's are this year. And i doubt he's be on track to achieve any of them.

[LostDoggy]

I'd be interested to read what McCartney's KPI's are this year. And i doubt he's be on track to achieve any of them.

His "Crack ins" are hitting the mark

[Mofra]

Was it a miracle? Doesn't it just illustrate a point? Team sport. Players that stick together and work to a solid plan go places. The Swans have shown this. St Kilda have shown this. Freo have shown this ( minus Griffen, Sandilands and Pavlich, they still are able to jag a win. They know when to get drawn to the contest and when to cover. They have a smart system in place and like at St Kilda probably, Lyon has taught them a tackle inside 50 is as good as a goal )
St Kilda are on the slide, and Freo have a host of 190cm+ 90kg+ mature midfielders who can play forward (the Swans don't need to be mentioned).

[The Pie Man]

Do you think our recruiting from 2000-2002 was any better? Jordan McMahon, Sam Power, Tim Walsh, Cam Faulkner - not exactly a roll-call of elite first round selections there. If we nailed even a couple of these selections we win a flag and possibly 2. As for the Rohde era, every single player drafted in before his arrival went backwards in their development and many of them were borderline scrapheap material before the new coach arrived. So in effect almost every year of drafting was poor from 2000-2009 - how we got so close to a premiership, with a clearly inferior list to the contenders of the day, was an absolute miracle.

Interesting to look at the make up of the 2009 prelim side

There were..

4 rookies (Boyd, Picken, Morris & Harbrow)
5 trade ins (Eagleton, Welsh, Hudson, Aka & Callan)
5 1st round picks (Cooney, Griffen, Murphy, Higgins & B Johnson)

9 players started their careers in the 90's, swelling to 14 that had commenced before 2002

Ward, Harbrow....Picken, Morris, Higgins & Griffen were the only players that came into the club from 2004 onwards (1st two having now moved on)

6 new players in 5 years made the prelim side. The rest either traded in or drafted 2003 and before.

[bornadog]

Interesting to look at the make up of the 2009 prelim side

There were..

4 rookies (Boyd, Picken, Morris & Harbrow)
5 trade ins (Eagleton, Welsh, Hudson, Aka & Callan)
5 1st round picks (Cooney, Griffen, Murphy, Higgins & B Johnson)

9 players started their careers in the 90's, swelling to 14 that had commenced before 2002

Ward, Harbrow....Picken, Morris, Higgins & Griffen were the only players that came into the club from 2004 onwards (1st two having now moved on)

6 new players in 5 years made the prelim side. The rest either traded in or drafted 2003 and before.

Really it doesn't matter how we got those players, we gave it a crack and it didn't work out. I am happy we were there abouts (not happy we didn't get into the GF).

Some say we have wrecked our chances today due to recruitment at the time

Here is the big IF - Put back into the team right now, Ward, Harbrow, Hill and Ray and the team looks very different in the middle age bracket. You can say want you want about Hill, but he virtually won the game on Friday night with three consecutive goals. Ray was good enough to be in the best 22 Saints teams and played in GF, and is still handy. Those two and Harbrow and Ward are better than Vez, Addison, Marko, Austin and many more still on our list.

[Remi Moses]

Josh Hill would get the second or third tall with us.
With Darling, Kennedy, Le Cras, Cox or Nic Nat,Hill gets off the leash.
He wouldn't get near it now for us.

[LostDoggy]

I think I've finally come to my tolerance level when it comes to short-sighted, stupid decisions. If we sack McCartney, I think I might just call it quits on the Western Bulldogs. It would only highlight our lack of guts in going on a different path than we've trodden for the past 60 years.

[bornadog]

Josh Hill would get the second or third tall with us.
With Darling, Kennedy, Le Cras, Cox or Nic Nat,Hill gets off the leash.
He wouldn't get near it now for us.

I don't want to argue whether these players are good or not, what I am saying is here are 4 players, currently at other clubs, and part of their best 22 that would fill in the age bracket that we lack. Then people may look at recruitment differently. Yes we made a lot of mistakes and we are now paying for it.

[BulldogBelle]

I don't want to argue whether these players are good or not, what I am saying is here are 4 players, currently at other clubs, and part of their best 22 that would fill in the age bracket that we lack. Then people may look at recruitment differently. Yes we made a lot of mistakes and we are now paying for it.




In the short term WE NEED to recruit a senior 'Head of Football' type position, who McCartney and his merry band of assistants would report directly into (both game day and off the field)...

This person would be charged with helping McCartney develop the following;

Skill development
Strucutres / Set-up
On-field strategies
Tactical movements on gameday
General assistance and leadership in the coaches box

[bornadog]

In the short term WE NEED to recruit a senior 'Head of Football' type position, who McCartney and his merry band of assistants would report directly into (both game day and off the field)...

This person would be charged with helping McCartney develop the following;

Skill development
Strucutres / Set-up
On-field strategies
Tactical movements on gameday
General assistance and leadership in the coaches box

Couldn't agree more.

[bulldogtragic]

In the short term WE NEED to recruit a senior 'Head of Football' type position, who McCartney and his merry band of assistants would report directly into (both game day and off the field)...

This person would be charged with helping McCartney develop the following;

Skill development
Strucutres / Set-up
On-field strategies
Tactical movements on gameday
General assistance and leadership in the coaches box
Could we recruit a premiership coach for this role, ala Matthews, Roos or Sheedy. Would having a Eade (Collingwood overseer) work for us like it does the pies?

[SlimPickens]

In the short term WE NEED to recruit a senior 'Head of Football' type position, who McCartney and his merry band of assistants would report directly into (both game day and off the field)...

This person would be charged with helping McCartney develop the following;

Skill development
Strucutres / Set-up
On-field strategies
Tactical movements on gameday
General assistance and leadership in the coaches box

Wonder if Neil Balme wants a challenge?

[SlimPickens]

Could we recruit a premiership coach for this role, ala Matthews, Roos or Sheedy. Would having a Eade (Collingwood overseer) work for us like it does the pies?

The questions is does that set up actually work. Personally I'm not convinced it does, others may disagree.

Which are successful? Hird/Thompson, Buckley/Eade, Voss/Havey....all are doing better then us but I wouldnt consider any successful.

[bornadog]

The questions is does that set up actually work. Personally I'm not convinced it does, others may disagree.

Which are successful? Hird/Thompson, Buckley/Eade, Voss/Havey....all are doing better then us but I wouldnt consider any successful.

We currently have Monty as the match day strategist, but is he the right person. I think we could do with a senior assistant to help Macca. I said this from day one in 2012 and I think its still something we need.

[Remi Moses]

In the short term WE NEED to recruit a senior 'Head of Football' type position, who McCartney and his merry band of assistants would report directly into (both game day and off the field)...

This person would be charged with helping McCartney develop the following;

Skill development
Strucutres / Set-up
On-field strategies
Tactical movements on gameday
General assistance and leadership in the coaches box

I agree with this. Port did that with Richardson( even though Hinkley's an experienced assistant)

[Remi Moses]

I don't want to argue whether these players are good or not, what I am saying is here are 4 players, currently at other clubs, and part of their best 22 that would fill in the age bracket that we lack. Then people may look at recruitment differently. Yes we made a lot of mistakes and we are now paying for it.

Hill falls in the age bracket,but honestly he marked his own papers.
The point I'm making is Hill is playing in a better forward half than ours where more attention is paid to the other big guns.

[bornadog]

I agree with this. Port did that with Richardson( even though Hinkley's an experienced assistant)

Pretty sure Richardson was an assistant at our club some years ago. He left for more money.

[AndrewP6]

In the short term WE NEED to recruit a senior 'Head of Football' type position, who McCartney and his merry band of assistants would report directly into (both game day and off the field)...

This person would be charged with helping McCartney develop the following;

Skill development
Strucutres / Set-up
On-field strategies
Tactical movements on gameday
General assistance and leadership in the coaches box
I see the potential benefits, but I'm not a fan personally. In my view, if the senior coach needs that level of support, why not just get another one? In my view, those roles are undertaken by the senior coach. If they aren't capable of fulfilling them, they shouldn't be there.

[jeemak]

Could we recruit a premiership coach for this role, ala Matthews, Roos or Sheedy. Would having a Eade (Collingwood overseer) work for us like it does the pies?

I couldn't think of anyone I'd want less than Kevin Sheedy to fulfill such a role.

I'm not sold on the concept, nor am I sold in having it completed by somebody with an extremely large ego, which is a character each of the candidates you've mentioned has.

There's definitely benefits of having somebody steer all of the key football personnel in the right direction.

[always right]

If we're looking for someone to support McCartney with match day strategy skills, here's one from left field. Terry Wallace anyone? It's not as if he would be a threat to the coach and match day tactics were his strong point.

[SlimPickens]

We currently have Monty as the match day strategist, but is he the right person. I think we could do with a senior assistant to help Macca. I said this from day one in 2012 and I think its still something we need.

Fair enough but if you're going to make a play for someone like Roos or Matthews. It would be as a senior coach not a senior assistant.

[FrediKanoute]

In the short term WE NEED to recruit a senior 'Head of Football' type position, who McCartney and his merry band of assistants would report directly into (both game day and off the field)...

This person would be charged with helping McCartney develop the following;

Skill development
Strucutres / Set-up
On-field strategies
Tactical movements on gameday
General assistance and leadership in the coaches box

I agree. We need this independent, experienced guiding role.

[LostDoggy]

If we're looking for someone to support McCartney with match day strategy skills, here's one from left field. Terry Wallace anyone? It's not as if he would be a threat to the coach and match day tactics were his strong point.

Great suggestion, couldn't see it happening though

[The Underdog]

I couldn't think of anyone I'd want less than Kevin Sheedy to fulfill such a role.

I'm not sold on the concept, nor am I sold in having it completed by somebody with an extremely large ego, which is a character each of the candidates you've mentioned has.

There's definitely benefits of having somebody steer all of the key football personnel in the right direction.

I'd consider retiring my membership if we hired Sheedy in this sort of role. Certainly while he was at the club anyway.
I'm not convinced about the need for someone in the head of football role as described. The coach and football department should be able to accomplish it within the existing structure. If they can't, find people who can.

[Ghost Dog]

Anyway, in terms of the title of this thread, while I disagree with the specifics, the squeaky wheel does get oiled. Very intent on writing to the club, expressing my support but strong dismay with our performance.
If we as members don't do this, then by the time we get to a Melbournish stage, it will be far too late.
Are we too passive as members? Sometimes I think so.
The development as a total excuse ( partial is acceptable I guess ) went out the window the moment our senior group failed against the Suns.

[soupman]

If we're looking for someone to support McCartney with match day strategy skills, here's one from left field. Terry Wallace anyone? It's not as if he would be a threat to the coach and match day tactics were his strong point.

I was thinking this today. I think the idea certainly has merit, and it could be in part time capacity (match day and one or two days in the preceding week) to allow him to continue his outstanding media work.

[Throughandthrough]

Mark Williams is desperate to be a head coach again. While he has a great ability to run people up the wrong way, his record os very very strong, especially when dealing with limited budget and a limited playing group.

[GVGjr]

I know we are going over old ground, and you've probably mentioned these elsewhere, but what do you see as the 3 biggest stuff-ups the Eade/ Fantasia combo made with regard to list management?

In no order, the retention of Hahn as a rookie, the contract extension of Mulligan, the additional year to Akermanis without the media controls. I could add the floating of Everitt and Hill as trades one year only to maintain them and trade the following year. Eagleton was on the list at least one year too long but more likely 2.

From memory I had a list of about 8 decisions I challenged and I'll have a dig around for them.

I think there was a number of short term decisions (because of our finals campaigns) that we are paying for now. You would be aware that I also challenged why we took only the minimum of 3 players in 2008 and expressed it was a decision we would pay for at a later stage.
I remain convinced it has hurt us for the last 2 years.

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

If we're looking for someone to support McCartney with match day strategy skills, here's one from left field. Terry Wallace anyone? It's not as if he would be a threat to the coach and match day tactics were his strong point.
Why would you want Wallace back seriously when he has already walked out on the Club before. Have you forgotten that club leaders in Chris Grant and Luke Darcy made a deputation to David Smorgon at the time that they didn't want him coaching the team in the last game of the season. We have short memories.

[stefoid]

One positive thing is that our recruiting this year has been spot on - Macrae, Stringer, Hrovat and Prudden seem to be smart players who use the ball well. And grabbing Hunter in the middle of the draft is starting to look as lucky as getting Libba around the same mark.

[lemmon]

Mark Williams is desperate to be a head coach again. While he has a great ability to run people up the wrong way, his record os very very strong, especially when dealing with limited budget and a limited playing group.

Would jump at Williams, his players always seemed to want to play for him which is half the battle for mine. Would embrace the battling culture I reckon

[Bulldog Joe]

Would jump at Williams, his players always seemed to want to play for him which is half the battle for mine. Would embrace the battling culture I reckon

Never have understood why so many seem to think Mark Williams is a positive.

Yes he won a flag at Port, but Alan Joyce also won flags.

Williams had an exceptional side at the time, but they quickly turned to rabble while he was still in charge.

I for one would be hugely disappointed if we added Williams in any way.

[MrMahatma]

Never have understood why so many seem to think Mark Williams is a positive.

Yes he won a flag at Port, but Alan Joyce also won flags.

Williams had an exceptional side at the time, but they quickly turned to rabble while he was still in charge.

I for one would be hugely disappointed if we added Williams in any way.
So you only get considered a good coach if you win a flag with a rubbish team?

[Bulldog Joe]

So you only get considered a good coach if you win a flag with a rubbish team?

No. A good coach sets up a good team AND the team/club remains better for their involvement.

Hence Joyce and Williams don't make my list as good coaches, because they each presided over a period that saw them turn a premiership team into a complete rabble.

Roos at Sydney is the other category, who departed with a team that remained competitive and won a premiership under his successor. Bomber Thompson also achieved that.

[Mantis]

Mark Williams is desperate to be a head coach again. While he has a great ability to run people up the wrong way, his record os very very strong, especially when dealing with limited budget and a limited playing group.

Why then did he leave GWS when it was almost a given that he would take over from Sheedy?

[Mantis]

In no order, the retention of Hahn as a rookie, the contract extension of Mulligan, the additional year to Akermanis without the media controls. I could add the floating of Everitt and Hill as trades one year only to maintain them and trade the following year. Eagleton was on the list at least one year too long but more likely 2.



Can't disagree with any of them, although I didn't mind Hahn staying on as a big bodied back-up for Hall.... But otherwise some big *!*!*!*!-ups in there.. But I would have thought that Eagleton was on the list for at least 5 years too long. ;)

And Aker should have gone regardless of media controls, he was cooked by the end of 2009.

[Mofra]

Why would you want Wallace back seriously when he has already walked out on the Club before. Have you forgotten that club leaders in Chris Grant and Luke Darcy made a deputation to David Smorgon at the time that they didn't want him coaching the team in the last game of the season. We have short memories.
Short memories?

The guy who was one dodgy goal umpire away from a flag as coach, who won 2 B&F for us and was a driving force behind changing the culture of the club, who has admitted his errors about how he left the club, supports the Bulldogs as do his kids and would actually provide value to the club if he was employed in official capacity?

Coaches almost never leave on good terms - if he wants to come back and the club can agree to terms, then go for it.

[chef]

Short memories?

The guy who was one dodgy goal umpire away from a flag as coach, who won 2 B&F for us and was a driving force behind changing the culture of the club, who has admitted his errors about how he left the club, supports the Bulldogs as do his kids and would actually provide value to the club if he was employed in official capacity?

Coaches almost never leave on good terms - if he wants to come back and the club can agree to terms, then go for it.

Well said Mofra.

[Greystache]

Short memories?

The guy who was one dodgy goal umpire away from a flag as coach, who won 2 B&F for us and was a driving force behind changing the culture of the club, who has admitted his errors about how he left the club, supports the Bulldogs as do his kids and would actually provide value to the club if he was employed in official capacity?

Coaches almost never leave on good terms - if he wants to come back and the club can agree to terms, then go for it.

Totally agree

[LostDoggy]

Short memories?

The guy who was one dodgy goal umpire away from a flag as coach, who won 2 B&F for us and was a driving force behind changing the culture of the club, who has admitted his errors about how he left the club, supports the Bulldogs as do his kids and would actually provide value to the club if he was employed in official capacity?

Coaches almost never leave on good terms - if he wants to come back and the club can agree to terms, then go for it.

Yep, totally agree.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Short memories?

The guy who was one dodgy goal umpire away from a flag as coach, who won 2 B&F for us and was a driving force behind changing the culture of the club, who has admitted his errors about how he left the club, supports the Bulldogs as do his kids and would actually provide value to the club if he was employed in official capacity?

Coaches almost never leave on good terms - if he wants to come back and the club can agree to terms, then go for it.

Agreed.

Terry's contribution shouldn't be ignored, and I think his time in the media recently has served him well. I wouldn't mind him back in the frame at all.

[LostDog]

Anyway, in terms of the title of this thread, while I disagree with the specifics, the squeaky wheel does get oiled. Very intent on writing to the club, expressing my support but strong dismay with our performance.
If we as members don't do this, then by the time we get to a Melbournish stage, it will be far too late.
Are we too passive as members? Sometimes I think so.
The development as a total excuse ( partial is acceptable I guess ) went out the window the moment our senior group failed against the Suns.

here here

[Ghost Dog]

Why then did he leave GWS when it was almost a given that he would take over from Sheedy?

His wife hated being there. And threatened to divorce him A-la Darren Jolly. Or so I heard.

[bornadog]

His wife hated being there. And threatened to divorce him A-la Darren Jolly. Or so I heard.

Haven't they got something like 10 kids. Maybe she didn't want them being brought up there

[Remi Moses]

Williams is cooked as a senior coach. I've mellowed on Wallace for a tactician role, time to forgive and forget. They won't go down that path now as it will look like they don't trust McCartney.

[LostDoggy]

I've calmed down since Saturday (just), and vented my spleen. Time to come back to reality. I can't change or influence any direction the club takes onfield. I have to back them 100% in what they do from here on. Not easy, but hey its the Doggies !!!!!

[bornadog]

I've calmed down since Saturday (just), and vented my spleen. Time to come back to reality. I can't change or influence any direction the club takes onfield. I have to back them 100% in what they do from here on. Not easy, but hey its the Doggies !!!!!

I just knew we were going to lose on Saturday so I wasn't has angry, but still very very disappointed that we can be beaten by a younger team that us.

[boydogs]

Short memories?

The guy who was one dodgy goal umpire away from a flag as coach, who won 2 B&F for us and was a driving force behind changing the culture of the club, who has admitted his errors about how he left the club, supports the Bulldogs as do his kids and would actually provide value to the club if he was employed in official capacity?

Coaches almost never leave on good terms - if he wants to come back and the club can agree to terms, then go for it.

Would you make him the coach or just a senior assistant?

[The Doctor]

Williams is cooked as a senior coach. I've mellowed on Wallace for a tactician role, time to forgive and forget. They won't go down that path now as it will look like they don't trust McCartney.

Bring back Barry Richardson?

[Remi Moses]

Ummm No.The horse has bolted on the senior assistant Tactician director of Football job.
It should have been done on day one.

[Footscray 1954]

The teams performances under Brendan McCartney have been very disappointing since last June with the exception of the round 1 game against the Lions this year.However i think Macca should be given at least another year to see if he can turn it around.I think our board were wrong to get rid of Rocket.I think Rocket should have been allowed to rebuild the squad and i think if that happened then we would be in better shape right now.We have also failed to replace Brad Johnson and Barry Hall.Our lack of attacking firepower is a serious problem.Hopefully this will be rectified for next year.

[soupman]

Ummm No.The horse has bolted on the senior assistant Tactician director of Football job.
It should have been done on day one.

So why don't we attempt to rectify the mistake? I can't see how having an experienced matchday coach with proven tactical ability in an advisory position would be a negative.

[always right]

Why would you want Wallace back seriously when he has already walked out on the Club before. Have you forgotten that club leaders in Chris Grant and Luke Darcy made a deputation to David Smorgon at the time that they didn't want him coaching the team in the last game of the season. We have short memories.

I think enough water has passed under the bridge. Wallace has admitted his mistakes in a joint interview with Smorgon.

[Mofra]

Would you make him the coach or just a senior assistant?
I think he's had his chances as a senior coach but as a senior assitant he would provide value.
Via media work he still seems to have a keen interest in the game and anyone who manages to get a side from 3rd last to a whisker away from a premiership knows how to read the game.

[LongWait]

I listened to Wallace every day last year on Trade Radio or whatever it was called - he was laughable and his ideas about the relative strengths and value of many players and his assessment of teams left me rolling about on the floor laughing.

I'm happy to bring Terry back into the fold as a great Bulldogs person from the past but his judgement of players and a teams' strengths and weaknesses was very flawed at Richmond and appears to be even more out of touch now. Keep him well away from anything to do with football.

[bornadog]

I listened to Wallace every day last year on Trade Radio or whatever it was called - he was laughable and his ideas about the relative strengths and value of many players and his assessment of teams left me rolling about on the floor laughing.

I'm happy to bring Terry back into the fold as a great Bulldogs person from the past but his judgement of players and a teams' strengths and weaknesses was very flawed at Richmond and appears to be even more out of touch now. Keep him well away from anything to do with football.

agreed - Terry is a life member I believe, but not required in the footy department.

[boydogs]

I think he's had his chances as a senior coach but as a senior assitant he would provide value.
Via media work he still seems to have a keen interest in the game and anyone who manages to get a side from 3rd last to a whisker away from a premiership knows how to read the game.

I hate to harp on it, but why when it comes to the question of senior coaching has he 'had his chances', but not as a senior assistant?

I'm having trouble understanding this wise old man in the corner thing TBH.

[Mofra]

I hate to harp on it, but why when it comes to the question of senior coaching has he 'had his chances', but not as a senior assistant?

I'm having trouble understanding this wise old man in the corner thing TBH.
Put simply: being a head coach is a far more demanding job than being an assistant.
Thompson stood down from head coach for that very reason.

[boydogs]

Put simply: being a head coach is a far more demanding job than being an assistant.
Thompson stood down from head coach for that very reason.

OK, so are Eade, Craig, Thompson, Harvey, Williams & Primus all looking for a less demanding role? Or are they not seen as the best man for the job?

This all started with Malthouse mentoring Buckley in a transition arrangement, which I could understand, but a permanent master & apprentice scenario? I dunno.

You also didn't explain why Terry deserves another chance as a senior assistant but not as a senior coach.

[w3design]

I am simply not sure on how this coach and senior tactician thing would work. With some guys it seems to work, EG Thompson and Hird. But gee the coach would really need to get on with his advisor personally, and not feel at all threatened by his presence. It could so easily make the coach feel there is a shadow hanging over him coming from a vulture in the wings, whether that was true or not.

As for who, should we choose if we were to go down that track???

I was told by someone whose knowledge I respect, that where ever he has been, Williams simply got too many people off side, and is seriously abrasive and disruptive. Though I have no personal knowledge if this is true or not.

If the club were to go down this track, then it would need to be only with BMac's complete acceptance, otherwise it could be a disaster waiting to happen. Then I can think of only a few options off the top of my head.

I have the utmost respect for Roos, but doubt he would easily be tempted. Thompson, if you could lever him out of Windy Hill... I presume BMac would not feel threatened or intimidated there as they are friends, and Thompson sounds as if he has no ambition to return to a senior coaching role anyway.

Then perhaps one out of left field...Ayres. A few years back I would not have suggested his name. But having watched what he does, and has done with Port Melbourne, it has been quite remarkable. The players clearly respond to him, and he has managed to make, and keep a stand alone team highly successful in the VFL, while all the odds would seem stacked against them.
Tactically he definitely moves his game plan quickly to meet the situations in the game as they arise. And he seems a lot calmer and is more experienced than he was in his time at AFL level.

[LostDoggy]

I'd happily offer Ayers an assistant coaching role but you couldn't put someone with no more senior experience than Macca on top if him. If it didn't quickly turn the tide we would be collectively calling for both heads very fast.

Roos makes the most sense if he wants to come to Melb. I think its a better gig than Malthouse took (the blues have missed and will decline in my opinion). I expect us to start to turn the tide sometime next year and slowly build from there based on most other clubs decline and rise patterns so he could look like a hero if he took it before next season. He'd add a really valuable skillset as well.

[Mofra]

OK, so are Eade, Craig, Thompson, Harvey, Williams & Primus all looking for a less demanding role? Or are they not seen as the best man for the job?
Some of them: probably


This all started with Malthouse mentoring Buckley in a transition arrangement, which I could understand, but a permanent master & apprentice scenario? I dunno.
Hardwick and Williams, Sheedy and Cameron, Thompson and Hird, Blight and McKenna - it's not an uncommon scenario. In fact, it's a growing trend.



You also didn't explain why Terry deserves another chance as a senior assistant but not as a senior coach.

It's not obvious?

[chef]

A weeks a long time in football.

[Greystache]

I think he may survive another week :D

[Go_Dogs]

A weeks a long time in football.

Yep, things can change very quickly in football. We've still got a long way to go but it's great for all involved to get a result to illustrate we're moving in the right direction.

[bornadog]

Thread Closed:D

[westdog54]

Thread Closed:D

Believe me, I'm very, very tempted after tonight.;)

[LostDoggy]

Believe me, I'm very, very tempted after tonight.;)

May as well. It certainly won't be the last thread.

[LostDoggy]

Crickets.......

[MrMahatma]

Best coach in years.... Beating a team that has bitch slapped us again and again!

[Maddog37]

He has rolled the dice a little to focus on attack more at the expense of numbers at the ball. Better to watch.

[boydogs]

Best coach in years.... Beating a team that has bitch slapped us again and again!

I think his contested ball focus had something to do with that, something the Ross Lyon Saints were strong on but the Rodney Eade Dogs lacked

[azabob]

He has rolled the dice a little to focus on attack more at the expense of numbers at the ball. Better to watch.

He did role the dice to a degree - but it helps when you have the right balance, which we did. Hopefully injuries allow us to continue to have the balance.

It will be interesting to see when and if Cross and Wallis comeback into the team.

[bornadog]

I think his contested ball focus had something to do with that, something the Ross Lyon Saints [B]were strong on but the Rodney Eade Dogs lacked

Mate, this is just wrong.

2008, 2009, and 2010, we were second highest each year in contested possessions.

The Saints in those same years were 5th, 3rd and 4th. Its a bloody myth that we weren't good at CP under Eade.

[LongWait]

Mate, this is just wrong.

2008, 2009, and 2010, we were second highest each year in contested possessions.

The Saints in those same years were 5th, 3rd and 4th. Its a bloody myth that we weren't good at CP under Eade.

We might have won the contested possession stats under Eade but we were out muscled around the stoppages by the better teams. This is an example of when the stats don't tell the whole story.

[Sedat]

Believe me, I'm very, very tempted after tonight.;)
I think it is unedifying for some posters (moderators no less) to gloat and criticise those asking pertinent questions following a run of 18 losses in 19 matches. The title of this thread is poor but as BMac himself noted yesterday, asking questions following such a barren run is actually a healthy thing for our club.

Over the past 12 months, I've been wanting to see BMac influence proceedings from the box during game day and have been disappointed in this aspect of BMac's tenure thus far. But to his eternal credit, BMac genuinely impacted the flow of the contest from the coaches box yesterday and was a big factor in stemming the St Kilda momentum on a couple of occasions with a number of key positional changes. He also got the players to run and carry far more, with yesterday's run and dare a welcome contrast to our static and predictable ball movement for most of the last 12 months.

I thoroughly enjoyed the way we played and the way we were coached yesterday, and I sure as hell enjoyed the end result against those filthy maggots - that was a long time coming.

[boydogs]

Mate, this is just wrong.

2008, 2009, and 2010, we were second highest each year in contested possessions.

The Saints in those same years were 5th, 3rd and 4th. Its a bloody myth that we weren't good at CP under Eade.

Hmm, we definitely struggled in that area when we played the Saints.


Little separates these teams in raw ball-winning stats. In total disposals, the Western Bulldogs rank second and the Saints fourth; in contested ball the Bulldogs rank third and the Saints rank fourth, and in kicking efficiency they are ranked first and second respectively. But for form against each other you have to look deeper. As the Collingwood coach said last week: "We did not get our hands on the ball." That has been the case both times these teams have played this year, a difference of 82 and 73 possessions St Kilda's way, with the Saints easily winning the contested ball. Quite simply, the Saints have denied the Bulldogs time in possession, and have not got involved in an up-tempo style of game

http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfnews/st-kilda-v-western-bulldogs/2009/09/12/1252519682664.html

[LongWait]

I think it is unedifying for some posters (moderators no less) to gloat and criticise those asking pertinent questions following a run of 18 losses in 19 matches. The title of this thread is poor but as BMac himself noted yesterday, asking questions following such a barren run is actually a healthy thing for our club.

Over the past 12 months, I've been wanting to see BMac influence proceedings from the box during game day and have been disappointed in this aspect of BMac's tenure thus far. But to his eternal credit, BMac genuinely impacted the flow of the contest from the coaches box yesterday and was a big factor in stemming the St Kilda momentum on a couple of occasions with a number of key positional changes. He also got the players to run and carry far more, with yesterday's run and dare a welcome contrast to our static and predictable ball movement for most of the last 12 months.

I thoroughly enjoyed the way we played and the way we were coached yesterday, and I sure as hell enjoyed the end result against those filthy maggots - that was a long time coming.

You are hyper-sensitive if you think that those who support McCartney are gloating! It's been pretty tough for 18 months for those who support the coach and we and the coach have had plenty of moments when the criticism has stung. Harden up.

[Sedat]

You are hyper-sensitive if you think that those who support McCartney are gloating! It's been pretty tough for 18 months for those who support the coach and we and the coach have had plenty of moments when the criticism has stung. Harden up.
Sigh.

The questions over the past 12 months of inept perfomances and the media focus on us this week was warranted, and the accolades for our coach and players have been just as warranted after yesterday's terrific performance. We all ultimately share the same passion and goal for our club. I want BMac to be as much of a success as you do, so more of yesterday's daring run & carry, and more continued positive impact from the coaches box please.

[bornadog]

Hmm, we definitely struggled in that area when we played the Saints.



http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfnews/st-kilda-v-western-bulldogs/2009/09/12/1252519682664.html

If you are going to bring the 2009 prelim up, we won the CP, even on the clearances, both around the ground and in the centre and we won the tackles and had 22 more disposals. In a 7 point ball game it was even pretty much every where.

I will say against the Saints in other matches, they did what you said.

You said under Eade we weren't good at CP, but the stats say otherwise. LW can talk about being out muscled around stoppages, but that's not we are talking about here.

[LongWait]

Sigh.

The questions over the past 12 months of inept perfomances and the media focus on us this week was warranted, and the accolades for our coach and players have been just as warranted after yesterday's terrific performance. We all ultimately share the same passion and goal for our club. I want BMac to be as much of a success as you do, so more of yesterday's daring run & carry, and more continued positive impact from the coaches box please.

No need for you to have a crack at other posters though! If you dish it out, don't be surprised or miffed if someone else pushes back.

[jeemak]

Hmm, we definitely struggled in that area when we played the Saints.



http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfnews/st-kilda-v-western-bulldogs/2009/09/12/1252519682664.html


If you are going to bring the 2009 prelim up, we won the CP, even on the clearances, both around the ground and in the centre and we won the tackles and had 22 more disposals. In a 7 point ball game it was even pretty much every where.

I will say against the Saints in other matches, they did what you said.

You said under Eade we weren't good at CP, but the stats say otherwise. LW can talk about being out muscled around stoppages, but that's not we are talking about here.

More pertinent in those years was our inability to execute on top of winning the contested ball under the pressure the best teams in the competition placed on us.

You couple a slight disadvantage in talent compared to Geelong in those years across the ground, and a disadvantage against the Saints top end talent and we were left a little short because we couldn't finish off the limited opportunities presented to us, whereas their players could.

There wasn't ever a great deal in it, and I reckon if we had have come out firing in the 2009 qualifying final and taken that game as we should have we'd have had a significant belief going into the last two weeks of 2009.

The qualifying finals of 2008 and 2009 will always be very disappointing and borderline shameful performances for me. We just couldn't face each game mentally.

[westdog54]

I think it is unedifying for some posters (moderators no less) to gloat and criticise those asking pertinent questions following a run of 18 losses in 19 matches. The title of this thread is poor but as BMac himself noted yesterday, asking questions following such a barren run is actually a healthy thing for our club.

Over the past 12 months, I've been wanting to see BMac influence proceedings from the box during game day and have been disappointed in this aspect of BMac's tenure thus far. But to his eternal credit, BMac genuinely impacted the flow of the contest from the coaches box yesterday and was a big factor in stemming the St Kilda momentum on a couple of occasions with a number of key positional changes. He also got the players to run and carry far more, with yesterday's run and dare a welcome contrast to our static and predictable ball movement for most of the last 12 months.

I thoroughly enjoyed the way we played and the way we were coached yesterday, and I sure as hell enjoyed the end result against those filthy maggots - that was a long time coming.

I'll have to check with GVGjr and Twodogs, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't asked to hand in my sense of humour when I was asked to be a moderator.

When Bmac has had a good game in the box after a self confessed bad game last week I reserve the right to have a bit of fun in a thread like this.

I could have closed this thread days ago if I'd wanted to, as could any of the other moderators, but as I said in another thread, its a discussion forum.

[jeemak]

I'll have to check with GVGjr and Twodogs, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't asked to hand in my sense of humour when I was asked to be a moderator.
When Bmac has had a good game in the box after a self confessed bad game last week I reserve the right to have a bit of fun in a thread like this.

I could have closed this thread days ago if I'd wanted to, as could any of the other moderators, but as I said in another thread, its a discussion forum.

I can just imagine the initiation ceremony:

Twodogs - Hand in your sense of humour Westog54, if you want to be a moderator, you're going to have to get by without it.

Westdog54 - Takes his sense of humour from its holster, disarms it and places it on the desk.

GVGjr - And the other one.........

Westdog54 - Lifts his left leg and rests his foot on his knee, pulls down his sock and hands in the sense of humour he'd concealed there for use in tricky situations.


I'll let myself out, thanks.

[westdog54]

I can just imagine the initiation ceremony:

Twodogs - Hand in your sense of humour Westog54, if you want to be a moderator, you're going to have to get by without it.

Westdog54 - Takes his sense of humour from its holster, disarms it and places it on the desk.

GVGjr - And the other one.........

Westdog54 - Lifts his left leg and rests his foot on his knee, pulls down his sock and hands in the sense of humour he'd concealed there for use in tricky situations.


I'll let myself out, thanks.

Reading that gave me the best laugh I've had in a while. Many thanks.

[EasternWest]

I'll let myself out, thanks.

What's the veal like?

[jeemak]

What's the veal like?

Que? Godfather?

[Scraggers]

I can just imagine the initiation ceremony:

Twodogs - Hand in your sense of humour Westog54, if you want to be a moderator, you're going to have to get by without it.

Westdog54 - Takes his sense of humour from its holster, disarms it and places it on the desk.

GVGjr - And the other one.........

Westdog54 - Lifts his left leg and rests his foot on his knee, pulls down his sock and hands in the sense of humour he'd concealed there for use in tricky situations.


I'll let myself out, thanks.

Bahahaha !!!

As EasternWest intimated "try the beef, I'm here 'til Thursday !!"

[bulldogtragic]

The Cowshed may have pulled the trigger too early, but things are going from bad to worse with regard to BMac. Just thought I would give it a bump to see how WOOFERs patience is going.

[bulldogtragic]

I should clarify, this is a conversation starter rather than an opinion post.

[SlimPickens]

The Cowshed may have pulled the trigger too early, but things are going from bad to worse with regard to BMac. Just thought I would give it a bump to see how WOOFERs patience is going.

Bad to worse after a team selection? Hopefully just a timing thing, could understand a bump after the loss on Saturday. Not now.

[Maddog37]

I should clarify, this is a conversation starter rather than an opinion post.


I would suggest this statement is a touch ingenuous.

[Remi Moses]

God knows what would happen on here if we lose.
Has a forum actually ever imploded ?

[azabob]

I should clarify, this is a conversation starter rather than an opinion post.

I find that hard to believe considering a lot of your posts are negative towards the coach, selection commitee, list and recruitment staff and now the president.

BT you are president of the Western Bulldogs what changes do you make from CEO, head coach to list manager to assistant coaches?

[GVGjr]

The Cowshed may have pulled the trigger too early, but things are going from bad to worse with regard to BMac. Just thought I would give it a bump to see how WOOFERs patience is going.

Is it much different to the "Whose head needs to be sacrificed?" thread? or are you particularly wanting to focus on McCartney now?

[Eastdog]

Well if we lose on Saturday then this discussion will definitely fire up.

[bulldogtragic]

I find that hard to believe considering a lot of your posts are negative towards the coach, selection commitee, list and recruitment staff and now the president.

BT you are president of the Western Bulldogs what changes do you make from CEO, head coach to list manager to assistant coaches?
Full Melbourne style review. No one is above scrutiny. Even the recruiters who did a brilliant job last draft. I would sit down and think about this:

Melbourne have gone through their President, board members, CEO, senior coach and many others by year end. This is based on onfield and off field results. Their point is crisis point.

I would compare ourselves to Melbourne (as a side near us) and other clubs. In doing that the stats say that:

Melbourne have more sponsors
Melbourne have more members
Melbourne have better attendances
Melbourne have only one less win
Melbourne have beaten us
Melbourne have more top end kids (being at the bottom longer)

(No I'm not saying we are worse than Melbourne - rather we are not 100% dissimilar)


So I would question everyone and everything. There's nothing wrong with making mistakes, the problem arises when you can't see them or ignore them. If the club does this and affirms everything and everyone I will suffer in silence next year.

I am really trying not to be too negative, but I see too many cracks. I think something needs to be done to ensure we don't keep walking the same path. Some will take pot shots at me, that's fine, but I'm not a shit stirrer or drama queen. I see our club as under performing and wish we change our course. I am driven by a desire for a better, stronger, more successful club.

As any follower of mine will know, I haven't called for heads just yet. My preference is to get BMac a top level deputy as he is an apparent great teacher. Barring that, I'm not sure continuing the status quo is good for anybody.

[Before I Die]

BT, I appreciate that you are responding to a question, but I don't agree at all. Melbourne had a tanking scandal, a mass walkout of experienced players, greater debt and a coach who had clearly lost his players.

Look at our list, what would you consider a good win/loss ratio with our current list and injuries? If we had won against Melbourne would that have made any difference to our long term fortunes? Similarly, if we won 7 games for the season, would that change anything? We are not going anywhere for at least twelve months, probably more, so we all need to HTFU and give BMac his chance. He cant do any harm with this young list.

Let's have discussion about team selection and tactics, but can we back off from the calls for mass sackings. You mentioned earlier that you left BF to join WOOF, so did I, but I am finding it harder to pick the difference lately.

[Hotdog60]

BT, I appreciate that you are responding to a question, but I don't agree at all. Melbourne had a tanking scandal, a mass walkout of experienced players, greater debt and a coach who had clearly lost his players.

Look at our list, what would you consider a good win/loss ratio with our current list and injuries? If we had won against Melbourne would that have made any difference to our long term fortunes? Similarly, if we won 7 games for the season, would that change anything? We are not going anywhere for at least twelve months, probably more, so we all need to HTFU and give BMac his chance. He cant do any harm with this young list.

Let's have discussion about team selection and tactics, but can we back off from the calls for mass sackings. You mentioned earlier that you left BF to join WOOF, so did I, but I am finding it harder to pick the difference lately.

Ditto, there have been some older (long time) members on here that have stopped posting and at one stage I was just waiting for the official Bulldog forum to start too try something different.

[bulldogtragic]

Is it much different to the "Whose head needs to be sacrificed?" thread? or are you particularly wanting to focus on McCartney now?
I think it's fair to question BMac, and his performance to date. As employees we are all subjected to periodic review. I know, that's up for the club to do, but when 28,000 of the public give their money, it becomes a public topic.

In review:
2011 appointed senior coach for a fixed term
Was coming off success in years before
Was not expected to get radical results
Team Form has been patchy
Tasked with changing culture
Rotated new talent through with mixed results
Has stuck with players in fixed positions
Overlooked some experienced players


Catch... This is Micky Arthur's record. He was the obvious appointment who came off success is South Africa. Was backed months ago with homework gate. Something happened in the inner sanctum, now Warner is suspended, Rogers is back from the dead, our VC is not being played out of position, the list has been reviewed and players like Cowan and Hughes are not locked into spots which were not necessarily the best for the team. This enormous change has happened in weeks and would never have happened by sticking with Mickey.

Now I am not saying sack him. I am not saying the comparison is absolutely perfect. What I am saying is questioning the coach is not negative, it's not wrong, it's not sacreligious or declaring war on our great club. Furthermore, it's not unheard of in professional sport this year in AFL or cricket to question things, and if required, to admit a mistake and take corrective action. I'm not saying we are there yet, but I don't think questioning the status quo is all that bad...

[bornadog]

Now I am not saying sack him. I am not saying the comparison is absolutely perfect. What I am saying is questioning the coach is not negative, it's not wrong, it's not sacreligious or declaring war on our great club. Furthermore, it's not unheard of in professional sport this year in AFL or cricket to question things, and if required, to admit a mistake and take corrective action. I'm not saying we are there yet, but I don't think questioning the status quo is all that bad...

Love your passion.

I agree we can't sack him yet. Lets see what the progress is by year end and then the club can review. I know its a year early on his contract, but if we are still sitting on wins of 3 to 4 games, I think there will be serious questions asked.

PS: I seriously think we are going to lose tomorrow ( I hope not, god help us). GWS are looking for a win. All social media will be in meltdown if this happens and Garlick and PG will cop a lot of mail.

[LostDoggy]

I think it's fair to question BMac, and his performance to date. As employees we are all subjected to periodic review. I know, that's up for the club to do, but when 28,000 of the public give their money, it becomes a public topic.

In review:
2011 appointed senior coach for a fixed term
Was coming off success in years before
Was not expected to get radical results
Team Form has been patchy
Tasked with changing culture
Rotated new talent through with mixed results
Has stuck with players in fixed positions
Overlooked some experienced players


Catch... This is Micky Arthur's record. He was the obvious appointment who came off success is South Africa. Was backed months ago with homework gate. Something happened in the inner sanctum, now Warner is suspended, Rogers is back from the dead, our VC is not being played out of position, the list has been reviewed and players like Cowan and Hughes are not locked into spots which were not necessarily the best for the team. This enormous change has happened in weeks and would never have happened by sticking with Mickey.

Now I am not saying sack him. I am not saying the comparison is absolutely perfect. What I am saying is questioning the coach is not negative, it's not wrong, it's not sacreligious or declaring war on our great club. Furthermore, it's not unheard of in professional sport this year in AFL or cricket to question things, and if required, to admit a mistake and take corrective action. I'm not saying we are there yet, but I don't think questioning the status quo is all that bad...

Every week?

[Ajm86]

Must keep the coach he has a plan and when he took over never had the caddle give him 3 more years n mark my words we will be pushing top 4 all for macca

[Sedat]

Had a good look at our match-ups and transition of ball in the last couple of weeks. To be honest we are playing far safer, more static, more timid football now than we did in the first couple of months of the BMac era. I can't recall any premiership coach who started their first 2 seasons with 5 or less wins in each season. I understand the vision that BMac has but I have grave doubts about his ability to impact on game days when there is a rival coach ghosting on his every move and match-up. He strikes me as a sensible, logical person during the week but cannot deal with opposition changes in tactics and structure on match day. I reckon he desperately needs a senior assistant to help drive the game plan on match days and to counter the opposition. If he continues along with his inexperienced MC, he has no chance of a sustains senior AFL coaching career. We are so safe and predictable and passive with our ball movement, and BMac appears to be a very easy coach for opposition coaches to coach against. I've got my doubts that he is the man to turn our fortunes around and get us playing a brand of football that will be successful in the years to come.

[azabob]

Had a good look at our match-ups and transition of ball in the last couple of weeks. To be honest we are playing far safer, more static, more timid football now than we did in the first couple of months of the BMac era. I can't recall any premiership coach who started their first 2 seasons with 5 or less wins in each season. I understand the vision that BMac has but I have grave doubts about his ability to impact on game days when there is a rival coach ghosting on his every move and match-up. He strikes me as a sensible, logical person during the week but cannot deal with opposition changes in tactics and structure on match day. I reckon he desperately needs a senior assistant to help drive the game plan on match days and to counter the opposition. If he continues along with his inexperienced MC, he has no chance of a sustains senior AFL coaching career. We are so safe and predictable and passive with our ball movement, and BMac appears to be a very easy coach for opposition coaches to coach against. I've got my doubts that he is the man to turn our fortunes around and get us playing a brand of football that will be successful in the years to come.

If no senior assistant is brought in, would you change the coach at season's end?

[bornadog]

Had a good look at our match-ups and transition of ball in the last couple of weeks. To be honest we are playing far safer, more static, more timid football now than we did in the first couple of months of the BMac era. I can't recall any premiership coach who started their first 2 seasons with 5 or less wins in each season. I understand the vision that BMac has but I have grave doubts about his ability to impact on game days when there is a rival coach ghosting on his every move and match-up. He strikes me as a sensible, logical person during the week but cannot deal with opposition changes in tactics and structure on match day. I reckon he desperately needs a senior assistant to help drive the game plan on match days and to counter the opposition. If he continues along with his inexperienced MC, he has no chance of a sustains senior AFL coaching career. We are so safe and predictable and passive with our ball movement, and BMac appears to be a very easy coach for opposition coaches to coach against. I've got my doubts that he is the man to turn our fortunes around and get us playing a brand of football that will be successful in the years to come.

You can definitley see on match day when the camera shows the coaches box, the assistants are running the show, however, those assistants are very inexperienced.

[Sedat]

If no senior assistant is brought in, would you change the coach at season's end?
Personally, if we can't show significant improvement in our ball movment and game plan over the next couple of months, I'd be tempted to pull the trigger.

[Bulldog4life]

You can definitley see on match day when the camera shows the coaches box, the assistants are running the show, however, those assistants are very inexperienced.

You are assuming that BAD. No one on this board would know that for sure including you and me.

[Sedat]

You are assuming that BAD. No one on this board would know that for sure including you and me.
I would assume BMac ultimately runs the show, so by extension I think BMac is primarily responsible for us being out-coached and out-witted on match days almost every week.

[LostDoggy]

If no senior assistant is brought in, would you change the coach at season's end?

If no senior assistant is brought in then we've pretty much failed the coach. There are teams that have replenished well for years eg Geelong/Sydney. Other teams have a crack and have to rebuild (Barry/Aker/Sherman). It's the cattle and we need someone to train the calves. Macca makes sense to me at the moment.

[azabob]

Personally, if we can't show significant improvement in our ball movment and game plan over the next couple of months, I'd be tempted to pull the trigger.

I'm really unsure what we should do. In a way I think BMAC is suited to being a footy manager.

What experienced coach is out there we could get? I can't see Roos or Worsfold wanting to come to the dogs.

[bornadog]

I'm really unsure what we should do. In a way I think BMAC is suited to being a footy manager.

What experienced coach is out there we could get? I can't see Roos or Worsfold wanting to come to the dogs.

Worsfold cannot coach.

[azabob]

Worsfold cannot coach.

Really? Coached a flag, re-built a list.

[LostDoggy]

Must keep the coach he has a plan and when he took over never had the caddle give him 3 more years n mark my words we will be pushing top 4 all for macca

What he said...in slightly different terms...and maybe a few tweaks of the punctuation. But the sentiment is the same.

[bornadog]

Really? Coached a flag, re-built a list.

Insider knowledge tells me - he was lucky to win a premiership, not rated by other coaches and those in the know. Just what I have been told, otherwise I wouldn't know from an outsiders point of view.

[LostDoggy]

Worsfold cannot coach.

Almost two flags. He's done very well.

[azabob]

Insider knowledge tells me - he was lucky to win a premiership, not rated by other coaches and those in the know. Just what I have been told, otherwise I wouldn't know from an outsiders point of view.

Very interesting, very interesting indeed.

[bornadog]

Very interesting, very interesting indeed.

One thing West Coast do well is recruitment. If you have the cattle you can coach better, as you don't need to do as much with them.

[The Bulldogs Bite]

Choco Williams.

[bornadog]

Choco Williams.

Now there is a coach who is able to devleop young players.

[azabob]

Choco Williams.


Now there is a coach who is able to devleop young players.

Agree - very much his own man also. By all accounts the reason he left GWS was more Sheedy than himself.
He has also worked at a poorly resourced club.

[Twodogs]

One thing West Coast do well is recruitment. If you have the cattle you can coach better, as you don't need to do as much with them.


And developing them once they get them.

[westdog54]

So... um...

Anyone still want to sack the coach?

[comrade]

So... um...

Anyone still want to sack the coach?

The pleasing thing from the last 3 weeks has been our game style. We've been prepared to run the lines and overlap through the middle which has given our forwards a sniff.

Internally, it seems we've shifted away slightly from contested ball hunting at all costs which has opened up our scoring avenues.

[Ghost Dog]

A win for the faithful tonight. It's not just the warm feeling of a win. The Eagles fielded their best WAFL side after all. We've sharpened our decision making a little. We were able to make quicker decisions.

Sweet. Many a time I've sat in the cold hard stands of Etihad, watching Dean Cox, Priddis and Kennedy torch us.

Like the saints victory, an absolute pleasure to watch. Well done coach, lads, and supporters.

[GVGjr]

The pleasing thing from the last 3 weeks has been our game style. We've been prepared to run the lines and overlap through the middle which has given our forwards a sniff.

Internally, it seems we've shifted away slightly from contested ball hunting at all costs which has opened up our scoring avenues.

Well spotted. He had to teach the defensive side and now that most of them have embraced that it's been modified to open up on the attacking side.

[boydogs]

Well spotted. He had to teach the defensive side and now that most of them have embraced that it's been modified to open up on the attacking side.

I don't know if it's a defending/attacking thing so much as an inside/outside thing. Our improved outside game, in using short passing and long kicks to advantage, has actually helped us defensively, as we haven't had those clean turnovers the opposition was burning us on.

[The Doctor]

So... um...

Anyone still want to sack the coach?

Half the West Coast team was out so while it's great to get a win let's put it in perspective.

A couple of weeks ago we were nearly beaten by GWS which would have made us a basket case. I'd like to see us beat a full strength good team before we start gloating.

[LostDoggy]

I think Melbourne stunned us, and the week after against GWS the confidence was down.
May have read too much into those results. Gotta find the balance when working out where we're at.

[1eyedog]

Half the West Coast team was out so while it's great to get a win let's put it in perspective.

A couple of weeks ago we were nearly beaten by GWS which would have made us a basket case. I'd like to see us beat a full strength good team before we start gloating.

Spot on. We'll see how far we've come next week.

[Remi Moses]

Half the West Coast team was out so while it's great to get a win let's put it in perspective.

A couple of weeks ago we were nearly beaten by GWS which would have made us a basket case. I'd like to see us beat a full strength good team before we start gloating.

Yes, and we were at full strength?
You can't concede the sides not improving ?
Nobodies gloating ( certainly not me) but the thread is a total overreaction to the sides current predicament.

[always right]

But the question is still valid.......does anyone still want to sack the coach if we put in a poor performance next week?

[GVGjr]

But the question is still valid.......does anyone still want to sack the coach if we put in a poor performance next week?

I think those who would still want to have him sacked formed that position from the moment McCartney was appointed. They are very unlikely to change that view after a couple of good efforts leading into a win.

When you consider the playing performance change from 12 months ago, I think there should be a bit more support for him but that's what happens when a newly appointed coach replaces a popular and successful one.

[The Doctor]

You can't concede the sides not improving ?


I will concede we are improving when we beat a decent side at or near full strength.

[The Doctor]

I think those who would still want to have him sacked formed that position from the moment McCartney was appointed. They are very unlikely to change that view after a couple of good efforts leading into a win.


That's not true. I believe most supporters wanted him to succeed whether or not they were happy about the circumstances of his appointment.

[Greystache]

I will concede we are improving when we beat a decent side at or near full strength.

8th placed Port Adelaide at full strength isn't good enough?

[Ghost Dog]

I will concede we are improving when we beat a decent side at or near full strength.

Other factors make it hard to say if it's a massive improvement, but certainly some adjustment.

Like our kick ins. Not sure if it's a psychological thing that a less fancied club brings to the stadium, helping us get it right, but it was a lot better than usual tonight.

The inclusion of Young gives us 20% more composure down back. This is a guy that carries the footy around with one hand. I'm a massive fan.

Improvement is a multi-faceted thing. Weaker opposition, some good inclusions, a bit more confidence, slightly different game style.

It's hard to measure home ground advantage but the crowd was a factor we won't have every game.

[Remi Moses]

I will concede we are improving when we beat a decent side at or near full strength.

So we lost to two top 4 sides by 5 goals and 3 goals and haven't improved?
We're not going to beat these sides because we're not in the same ball park currently !
Pleasing thing was two key forwards who feast on us were beaten today.

[The Doctor]

8th placed Port Adelaide at full strength isn't good enough?

I was wondering if you would chime in.

Port were considered the AFL basket case at the start of the season

They were ranked well below us by many footy experts, and many of us on this forum. Look how well they have done this year, ie fighting for a place in the finals. Did you think his would happen?

[Remi Moses]

8th placed Port Adelaide at full strength isn't good enough?

No Port had Tredrea, Dew Wanganeen out.
We should be beating them!
The poster is deluded at this stage of our clubs rebuild we'd be beating Essendon and Hawthorn .

[Remi Moses]

I was wondering if you would chime in.

Port were considered the AFL basket case at the start of the season

They were ranked well below us by many footy experts, and many of us on this forum. Look how well they have done this year, ie fighting for a place in the finals. Did you think his would happen?

Lot of pundits had us finishing second last ahead of GWS.
Port actually finished above us last season.

[jeemak]

This is madness.

[Throughandthrough]

I'm convinced, based on the last month we are really heading the right way. All aboard! Onwards and upwards! Macca's the Man!

[The Doctor]

So we lost to two top 4 sides by 5 goals and 3 goals and haven't improved?


When we beat a decent side at full strength then we will have something to really get excited about. that's my point

[Remi Moses]

This is madness.

Ain't that the truth!

[The Doctor]

No Port had Tredrea, Dew Wanganeen out.
We should be beating them!
The poster is deluded at this stage of our clubs rebuild we'd be beating Essendon and Hawthorn .

I think you are better than this post.,

[Remi Moses]

When we beat a decent side at full strength then we will have something to really get excited about. that's my point

I give up honestly

[Greystache]

I was wondering if you would chime in.

Port were considered the AFL basket case at the start of the season

They were ranked well below us by many footy experts, and many of us on this forum. Look how well they have done this year, ie fighting for a place in the finals. Did you think his would happen?

What has where they weren't ranked before the season got to do with anything?

They're in the 8, will likely play finals, and we beat them. What part of that doesn't satisfy your criteria of beating a decent side at full strength?

West Coast were rated a premiership contender before the season started, they were rated well ahead of us by many football experts, and many of us in this forum. In fact it was thought they were the team to beat. They're currently 11th.

[GVGjr]

That's not true. I believe most supporters wanted him to succeed whether or not they were happy about the circumstances of his appointment.

Perhaps I should have worded things a bit better. What I'm trying to say is:

The ones that wanted him sacked a few weeks back when the thread was started probably haven't changed their views based on a couple of spirited efforts against the Bombers and Hawks and a win against West Coast.
I'm saying if they wanted him gone a few weeks back they would still want him gone now.

[Remi Moses]

I think you are better than this post.,

The club is rebuilding .
What part don't you understand that it's going to take time

[The Doctor]

The club is rebuilding .
What part don't you understand that it's going to take time

I haven't questioned that.

I repeat, when we beat a decent side at or near full strength then we will have something to get excited about. Fair enough isn't it?

[Ghost Dog]

I'm sick hearing the spin, the crap about how we should be doing this and that, sick of the contested ball focus.

The coach has got us into this position. He has swayed the recruiting staff to go after the same type of player that we already have...slow midfielders who can't kick. Does he teach them anything at training. I don't see it on the field.

What was with our handball tonight...trigger happy handball. It's because he has a team full of players who can't run...all they can do is handball...it's the leading root of most of our problems. I could go on but I won't bore you...we as supporters are already suffering from that pathetic display.

Time to go coach. Make way for the next person.

The above post just goes to show how quickly things can turn around in a season. Arse about with us. We're going to finish the year strongly as opposed to last year. Our handball to kick ratio is better, as is our outside game. Maybe the above poster now regrets being a little 'trigger happy'.

[Throughandthrough]

Perhaps I should have worded things a bit better. What I'm trying to say is:

The ones that wanted him sacked a few weeks back when the thread was started probably haven't changed their views based on a couple of spirited efforts against the Bombers and Hawks and a win against West Coast.
I'm saying if they wanted him gone a few weeks back they would still want him gone now.

I think after the GC match I was on the macca can't coach side. I'm big enough to admit I've changed my mind completely after our performance and spirit shown over the last month.


I'm excited over the youngsters we have and our new recruits this year


If he coach had lost he players, this time of the year it's easier to roll over and take it big. Our guys are fighting this season out.

[bornadog]

I'm convinced, based on the last month we are really heading the right way. All aboard! Onwards and upwards! Macca's the Man!

If you search through the threads I posted earlier in the year, I stated Macca told a friend of mine last year that we will start to see improvement after round 14 this year. I think you will find its happenning before our eyes.:)

[Sedat]

The pleasing thing from the last 3 weeks has been our game style. We've been prepared to run the lines and overlap through the middle which has given our forwards a sniff.

Internally, it seems we've shifted away slightly from contested ball hunting at all costs which has opened up our scoring avenues.
Yep, our ball movement has improved significantly in the last 3 weeks. All credit goes to BMac for this.

It is so refreshing to see quick transition of the ball putting the opposition defence under pressure instead of the other way around. The balance between defence and attack looks about right now.

[Bulldog4life]

This thread was an ill considered worded thread to start with and to think that some supporters are not excited about our improved current form is staggering to me.

[Eastdog]

Macca certainly knows what his doing with us and we have a game plan but it is our skill level that really kill us. What I've liked about us is that we are running out the games really well no second half fade outs like this time last year. Credit has to go to our fitness staff. The best thing for Macca to do for the Sydney game is to play a man on man style of footy to try and force a contest.

[Remi Moses]

This thread was an ill considered worded thread to start with and to think that some supporters are not excited about our improved current form is staggering to me.

Not really staggered. Some have hung their respective hats on McCartney being a failure and can't see the forest from the trees. Unfortunately to support their argument they need the Dogs to get flogged. Pretty sad to be honest.

[Remi Moses]

I haven't questioned that.

I repeat, when we beat a decent side at or near full strength then we will have something to get excited about. Fair enough isn't it?

Since the Melbourne game do you think the side has improved?

[Eastdog]

Not really staggered. Some have hung their respective hats on McCartney being a failure and can't see the forest from the trees. Unfortunately to support their argument they need the Dogs to get flogged. Pretty sad to be honest.

Will probably get well beaten next week but that is because we are playing a premiership contender. Macca's job by no means will come under threat and I see him continuing on.