List Management - Are We good enough to make finals in two years

[bornadog]

If we roll the clock forward two years what will our list look like and will it be good enough to be playing finals. In order to assess that, we have to be confident the players we have on our list right now are the right players.

Here is a list of players split between staying and gone (according to me)

Gone or could be:

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/Untitled_zps5d65ebc2.jpg (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/mmsalih/media/Untitled_zps5d65ebc2.jpg.html)

You could also argue that Williams, Grant won't be on the list either.

Based on today still on list

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/Untitled_zpsc4a04db2.png (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/mmsalih/media/Untitled_zpsc4a04db2.png.html)

I have broken the list into three tiers based on age. Do we believe this team can take us forward? Remember, there will be a new batch come in at the end of the year, but they won't contribute for a few years?

Based on who is available, then this could be the line up:

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/mmsalih/Untitled_zps4a60f6fa.png (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/mmsalih/media/Untitled_zps4a60f6fa.png.html)

Are we good enough?

Do we have enough match winners? what about A Graders?

What else do we need? What sort of mature player do we need to chase to fill a spot?

[DOG GOD]

I think our fwd line needs a lot of structural work bornadog. I'd be very concerned having Higgins and cordy in there. I'm personally not confident of Higgins breaking away from his injuries, and cordy actually making an afl player. Stringer to the fwd line would give us that extra, and I would have Jones at CHF.

Would love to see Tom Boyd at FF with Stringer and Jones on the HF line....maybe

HF: Stringer, Jones, (someone with a razor sharp kick who can kick 60)
FF: Smith, Boyd, Dalh

[bornadog]

I think our fwd line needs a lot of structural work bornadog. I'd be very concerned having Higgins and cordy in there. I'm personally not confident of Higgins breaking away from his injuries, and cordy actually making an afl player. Stringer to the fwd line would give us that extra, and I would have Jones at CHF.

Would love to see Tom Boyd at FF with Stringer and Jones on the HF line....maybe

HF: Stringer, Jones, (someone with a razor sharp kick who can kick 60)
FF: Smith, Boyd, Dalh

I guess what I am saying with my analysis, we have tough times ahead as I don't think our team looks good enough for the next few years. We have a lot of IF's in particular with the key positions from Full back to Full Forward.

[G-Mo77]

2 years, 2 drafts we have to nail them. Apparently we're going to be aggressive on the FA market so there could be another couple of key names included from there as well.

If everything goes our way in terms of drafting then yeah it's possible we could be playing finals in 2 years. Personally I think 3 - 4 years is more realistic.

[craigsahibee]

I think our fwd line needs a lot of structural work bornadog. I'd be very concerned having Higgins and cordy in there. I'm personally not confident of Higgins breaking away from his injuries, and cordy actually making an afl player. Stringer to the fwd line would give us that extra, and I would have Jones at CHF.

Would love to see Tom Boyd at FF with Stringer and Jones on the HF line....maybe

HF: Stringer, Jones, (someone with a razor sharp kick who can kick 60)
FF: Smith, Boyd, Dalh

That's Veszpremi's spot right there if he wants it.

You don't get this far without having natural talent. He has to decide now how far he wants to go with his footy. In 2 years he will be approaching 26. For most players it truly is the best years of their life. If he wants to make a decent living out of footy, time is quickly running out for him to make an impact.

[Cyberdoggie]

Are you taking the age in 2 years time as of today?

I might be wrong but wiki has Wood at 23 now, Roughead is 22, Cordy 22. ?

[Scorlibo]

Question marks over Talia, Roberts, Cordy, Hunter, Hrovat, Prudden and Lower long term.

With so few players breaching 100 games (possibly just Cooney, Griffen, Higgins, Minson), I can't see this being a competitive side.

The good news is that we will have Dahlhaus, Liberatore, Wallis, Roughead, Wood, Young and Jones creeping up on that figure and they all look quality footballers.

I think Murph and Crossy each have the potential to last another 2 years.

[LostDoggy]

Think we are 5 - 6 years off finals and next year likely to be worse than this.

There seem to be a few more decent prospects for talls for 2014 so I'd be inclined to take speedy mids if we miss Boyd this draft and wait for the next.

I'd still agressively trade for Gumbleton but I've argued that to death on another thread. Would make a big difference up front if he stayed on the park.

With retirement and culling we will need to be agressive for free agents or we'll end up with a truckload of rubbish picks at the end of the draft.

[Remi Moses]

Think we are 5 - 6 years off finals and next year likely to be worse than this.

There seem to be a few more decent prospects for talls for 2014 so I'd be inclined to take speedy mids if we miss Boyd this draft and wait for the next.

I'd still agressively trade for Gumbleton but I've argued that to death on another thread. Would make a big difference up front if he stayed on the park.

With retirement and culling we will need to be agressive for free agents or we'll end up with a truckload of rubbish picks at the end of the draft.

Interesting that Gumby's playing in the VFL this weekend.

[Remi Moses]

2 years, 2 drafts we have to nail them. Apparently we're going to be aggressive on the FA market so there could be another couple of key names included from there as well.

If everything goes our way in terms of drafting then yeah it's possible we could be playing finals in 2 years. Personally I think 3 - 4 years is more realistic.

Agree entirely, according to The Prez we're going 100% salary cap from next season.

[Greystache]

Interesting that Gumby's playing in the VFL this weekend.

And had played quite well but still got squeezed out. He only signed a 1 year extension so may realise he needs to move on, especially since Daniher is still in the wings too.

[Bulldog4life]

Agree entirely, according to The Prez we're going 100% salary cap from next season.

Yes heard him on Channel 7 tonight say that. Said we will be out there looking for a FA that fits our Club. We will have from $500,000 up to a $ million extra to spend apparently depending on retirements.

[LostDoggy]

And had played quite well but still got squeezed out. He only signed a 1 year extension so may realise he needs to move on, especially since Daniher is still in the wings too.

Yup. We'd clearly prefer to get <either riewoldt/buddy/kennedy/darling etc> but Gumby is realistic given the Dons never ending list of talls, his one year deal and the fact he's looked alright this year and stayed (so far) on the park.

[BulldogBelle]

Yes heard him on Channel 7 tonight say that. Said we will be out there looking for a FA that fits our Club. We will have from $500,000 up to a $ million extra to spend apparently depending on retirements.

This may sound crazy, but that even that fair-ish amount of salary cap room seems low to me considering our current list.

[wimberga]

I would really prefer we targeted someone like a D.Thomas then someone like Gumby.

Thomas is everything we need in the middle and has huge marketing potential for the club. Of course a big forward would be good but I really believe that we will end up with Boyd in the draft.

[boydogs]

I would really prefer we targeted someone like a D.Thomas then someone like Gumby.

Do we really need him now? Cooney, Griffen, Macrae, Stevens, Hrovat & Hunter are all going well.

I think we're lacking the Eagleton/Gilbee option to handball to when taking a mark 60m out. Thomas isn't a long kick. Trent McKenzie anyone?

[bulldogtragic]

I think 4 years is more realistic. And with our age profile, I wold think we would be there for a few years.

[F'scary]

What is DFA doing on the off-to-the-knackery list?

[FrediKanoute]

Thought in light if us being 6 or so weeks on from the original post whether it was worth starting to nominate guys who are on borrowed time and need to pull something out over the next 10 weeks or so (note have omitted the rookies or most of them):

Addison - really at the crossroads. Hasn't nailed down the defensive forward role and is in the magoos at the halfway point of the season. On his day he is a good forward option, but he has too many days like his Collingwood game. Not gone, but fading.

Marcovic - back up for Williams. May be lucky at the end of the year to hold his spot, but in reality offers nothing up front and too little down back. Great attitude, but is that enough? I hought he started ok against the Tigers, but faded very quickly. Williams' injuries may be the only ting that saves him. Packing his bags.

Vespremi - 1 game in in 2013 after having his best pre-season. Has been said many times, no tank and just not up to AFL standard. Gone.

Grant -the enigma. 50 games, but none in 2013 in a team which lacks a forward line. Style/intensity/attitude don't cut the mustard with the new coach. Personally, someone I would play ahead of Marcovic. Will be delisted at the end of the season - gone!

Howard - how this guy was drafted with a pick in the 20's is beyond me. Wasted pick who even on his good days is just not up to it. Youth may save him, especially if they don't want to cut too deep, but for mine the best he will be offered is a position on the rookie list. Just about gone.

Tutt - another whose game style just does not measure up to what the coach wants. Exclusively outside player, good finisher who has been hampered by injury. Has shown more than Howard in less games, but it wont be enough to save him come seasons end. Gone.

Austin - if Marco is retained then Austin will go. Talia has gone past him as the 2nd/third tall. Personally I would prefer if the club chased another topline backman (ie Talia's brother (dreaming), Rance (dreaming)) to make the backline secure. On borrowed time.

Cross - great clubman and veteran at the club, but you would have to say at this stage he is gone at the end of the season. A club in a rebuilding phase, focusing on youth means that his opportunities are limited. Wallis, Libba, Smith have all taken the spot he would have had and are playing well enough to hold him out. Gone.

Gia - has reinvented himself as the super sub, but the consensus is that he ill retire at the end of the year. Should be snapped up as a coach, as some have suggested of the new VFL team. May play on next year, but very unlikely. Door closing on a wonderful career.

Pearce - hasn't been able to build on a solid debut year. Will most likely be safe for another season, but the pressure will begin to mount if he doesn't start pushing in 2014. Biggest issue for him is what position? Safe for now.

Wood - the forgotton man. Talent in abundance, but injury prone, with guys going past him (Johannesen). On his day a great player, but needs to put together an injury free run to regain confidence in his body. Possible trade bait.

Higgins - see Wood above. Has been in the system long enough to show that he is a talent, but has had a terrible run with injury. With Gia's impending retirement the HF spot is his, but it remains to be seen whether his body can hold up. The dogs may listen to offers, but would look to command a top 20 pick at least which given his injury history is unlikely. Possible trade bait.

Boyd - despite his last couple weeks and the apparent decline, the warrior remains in the best 22. What we are seeing though is the rapid acceleration of midfielders like Libba and Smith who are beginning to be able to play the role he played more consistently. Like many warriors he doesn't know when he is beaten. but I expect he will give up the captaincy at the end of the year and adopt a more defensive role. Safe.

Cooney - a shadow of his best. Multiple interupted pre-seasons have taken their toll. He remains however a good player. Not convinced he is a great rebounding half back and would prefer him to play forward of centre. Safe for another season.

One thing for certain though the club can't afford to lose 6 or 7 old heads!

[LostDoggy]

It's a huge list isn't it. Hopefully there are some trades in there or we are going to have a squillion picks at 80-120.... Would be nice if Gia could eek an extra year but it seems he feels ready to complete this year. Big test coming up for the list management team. I'd be trading Wood and Howard for pick upgrades where we can but there are lots of ways we could go here.

[azabob]

Great summary Fredi.

We have some big decisions to make. The rookie list is also interesting with Greenwood, Redpath, Jong and Austin all at their 2 or 3 year limit.

Obviously we are light on for experience and trying to find mature bodies from the lower levels is very risky, especially when slotting into an already very inexperienced squad.

[bornadog]

Nice summary Fredi.

The way I see it it isn't rocket science, we do have a list of players that are just not good enough to take us forward. Do we bight the bullet and delist another 10 players and really set up the future or is it slowly slowly from now on. I thought we should have gone deeper last year and not have Vez on the list and the year before we should have cut deeper as well.

I think we should look at probably 7 to 8 players to go.

Retire: Cross and Gia

Delist/trade: Markovic, Vez, Tutt, Addison.

Test for the remainder of the season, with a view of last chance: Grant, Pearce, Howard

I would try and do a deal with GWS for Addison to go back to NSW.

[LostDoggy]

Question marks over Talia, Roberts, Cordy, Hunter, Hrovat, Prudden and Lower long term.

With so few players breaching 100 games (possibly just Cooney, Griffen, Higgins, Minson), I can't see this being a competitive side.

The good news is that we will have Dahlhaus, Liberatore, Wallis, Roughead, Wood, Young and Jones creeping up on that figure and they all look quality footballers.

I think Murph and Crossy each have the potential to last another 2 years.

Talia looks fine, and looks like being a good, serviceable player long term.
Roberts we haven't seen enough — agree that could be a sign.
Cordy is at the crossroads, you're right there.
But mate — Hunter has played one game, and did well. Hrovat looks fine, and has only played a few himself. Prudden hasn't played any, due to injury.

A bit early to be throwing question marks on these new blokes.

I think this whole thread is a pretty good one, but we're discounting the possibility of any of our current players improving to become good players, maybe even A-grade, in the next two years.

[1eyedog]

I think the question mark implies that it is an unknown whether they'll make it at this stage because they have played too few games.

Very interesting analysis BAD thanks it's certainly food for thought. I think a number of opposition lists look superior to ours, obviously the Suns heading up the list but I think we'll play finals for a few years with ours. I think we'll have the solid contributors across the ground and be able to forge a strong unit, but we may not have the extra class or forward line superstars to carry us to the big one however.

I often wonder whether we would have made one of those Grand Finals after 08 with a Riewoldt up forward.

[azabob]

Nice summary Fredi.

The way I see it it isn't rocket science, we do have a list of players that are just not good enough to take us forward. Do we bight the bullet and delist another 10 players and really set up the future or is it slowly slowly from now on. .

You are right BAD. We need to cut deep again - GVGjr was spot on the money also way back 2011/12 when he was pushing for major list changes.

I am still concerned about the age gap and lack of experienced players. Having said that no point being AFL experienced if you are not up to the level required.

I would like to add Tutt to the lets test for the remainder of the season, as I think he adds value.

Pearce I think should get another pre-season and year. He is very slight and looked very young and needs time to strengthen his body for the demands of AFL.

[azabob]

A bit early to be throwing question marks on these new blokes.
.

Not that Scorlibo needs me to defend him but his post was one month ago and his points were valid at the time. Since then Talia and Hunter have both played and showed something, so has Prudden albeit at the lower level.

[bornadog]

Pearce I think should get another pre-season and year. He is very slight and looked very young and needs time to strengthen his body for the demands of AFL.

Thinking again, I think you are right. Just worried that Pearce hasn't made any progress, but I guess like Roberts, injuries have wrecked their seasons to date.

With Tutt, agree can test him out but we need to play him in the right position. In his last game he played up forward and the ball rarely went down there. I don't see him as a HFF, he needs to play wing.

[azabob]

Thinking again, I think you are right. Just worried that Pearce hasn't made any progress, but I guess like Roberts, injuries have wrecked their seasons to date.

With Tutt, agree can test him out but we need to play him in the right position. In his last game he played up forward and the ball rarely went down there. I don't see him as a HFF, he needs to play wing.

Agree on Tutt, he is on thin ice but he has pace and has good skills.

Pearce is an interesting one for sure, hopefully he can string a few games together and push for senior selection. JJ has certainly overtaken him by far and Goodes also coming into the team has put him back another spot.

[1eyedog]

Agree on Tutt, he is on thin ice but he has pace and has good skills.

Pearce is an interesting one for sure, hopefully he can string a few games together and push for senior selection. JJ has certainly overtaken him by far and Goodes also coming into the team has put him back another spot.

Is Wood a straight swap for Goodes when fit?

[azabob]

Is Wood a straight swap for Goodes when fit?

My initial response was to say yes, but Im not so sure.

Wood isn't the most reliable under pressure and his skills are suspect. Similar to Goodes.

Wood is younger, quicker and stronger (assuming), so perhaps yes?

It's a good question, what do you think?

[chef]

I think 4 years is more realistic. And with our age profile, I wold think we would be there for a few years.

This. As long as we keep drafting well.

[1eyedog]

My initial response was to say yes, but Im not so sure.

Wood isn't the most reliable under pressure and his skills are suspect. Similar to Goodes.

Wood is younger, quicker and stronger (assuming), so perhaps yes?

It's a good question, what do you think?

Yes, but until Wood is fit I would drop Goodes and move Macrae to a HBF, Dahl to a wing to free him up for a few weeks and see what he's got and bring Grant into a forward pocket to replace Dahl for the rest of the season. Goodes is giving us no rebound out of the back half and Macrae would at least provide that. I am concerned about his lack of defensive skills however, but I'm also concerned about Goodes' as well. Dahl is playing too deep and is struggling to shrug the back pocket tag.

Wood to come back through the VFL and replace Macrae who goes back to the wing. This is still probably 8 weeks away going by Wood's recovery.

Unlike most others I'm big on Grant playing out the second half of the season.

[azabob]

Yes, but until Wood is fit I would drop Goodes and move Macrae to a HBF, Dahl to a wing to free him up for a few weeks and see what he's got and bring Grant into a forward pocket to replace Dahl for the rest of the season. Goodes is giving us no rebound out of the back half and Macrae would at least provide that. I am concerned about his lack of defensive skills however, but I'm also concerned about Goodes' as well. Dahl is playing too deep and is struggling to shrug the back pocket tag.

Wood to come back through the VFL and replace Macrae who goes back to the wing. This is still probably 8 weeks away going by Wood's recovery.

Unlike most others I'm big on Grant playing out the second half of the season.

I like your thought process and it would help provide more run through the back half and middle.
I am not so concerned about MaCrae's lack of defensive skills, he would be ok, he reads the ball well and only would have trouble when he is caught one on one, but would be a good learning curve for him.
RE Wood - I doubt he will be back in 2013.

[1eyedog]

I like your thought process and it would help provide more run through the back half and middle.
I am not so concerned about MaCrae's lack of defensive skills, he would be ok, he reads the ball well and only would have trouble when he is caught one on one, but would be a good learning curve for him.
RE Wood - I doubt he will be back in 2013.

Sadly I agree which puts him on the back foot for 2014. One weakness on my post (there may be others) is that Dahl looks spent already and may also offer little on a wing.

[LostDoggy]

Not that Scorlibo needs me to defend him but his post was one month ago and his points were valid at the time. Since then Talia and Hunter have both played and showed something, so has Prudden albeit at the lower level.

But that's kind of my point. In a month, it has changed. We're trying to predict the team in 2 years.

[GVGjr]

Is Wood a straight swap for Goodes when fit?

Wood is a good type of player because he is physical and looks good when he is running up the field. The problem is that his possession count isn't great and as I mentioned earlier in the year I think Howard is a slightly better option when you compare the stats.
Wood may very well improve but I'm not convinced he is better than than Goodes or Howard on what we have seen so far.

[Sedat]

Wood is a good type of player because he is physical and looks good when he is running up the field. The problem is that his possession count isn't great and as I mentioned earlier in the year I think Howard is a slightly better option when you compare the stats.
Wood may very well improve but I'm not convinced he is better than than Goodes or Howard on what we have seen so far.
Hasn't his stocks dropped significantly in the last 2 years. GWS were all over him as the plan B in the event that they couldn't snag Ward, and most of us at the time were aghast at the thought of losing Wood as an uncontracted player - some even suggested that Wood might be a bigger loss than Ward.

[1eyedog]

In all fairness to Wood he has had no continuity during this period. I agree his worse and best are polar opposites. He certainly needs more consistency which I think he'd get if he could stay on the park.

[LostDoggy]

Dashing Defenders with courage and the ability to kick it over 60 metres don't come by too often.. Just need to get him to stay on the park and get some continuity and consistency

[F'scary]

I am trying to recap (if only for my own tin-brained benefit) on the consensus expressed in this thread

Almost certainly will not be on the senior list in 2014: Veszpremi, Cross, Gia.

That is only 3.

How much deeper we cut is dependent on only a handful of factors:

What players/picks of prima facie better value are available during trade week;
What players are going around in the delisted free agent pool;
The identification of “Smokies” to use late draft picks on.

The important point is there is no magic wand. We are likely to have 1 first round pick, one second round pick, after that its just luck.

My take is that it was easier last year to find better players through the moneyball avenues because the last 10 to 12 on the list were so bad.

This year our list is incrementally better, making it harder to improve through the same avenues.

I am hoping therefore that Howard, Grant & Tutt genuinely earn more senior opportunities and truly show something. I write this because if they don’t, it seems to me that replacing them is more likely than not to produce more of the same sort of players. The real pain with these 3 is the draft picks used and the number of seasons under the bridge.

[LostDoggy]

Hasn't his stocks dropped significantly in the last 2 years. GWS were all over him as the plan B in the event that they couldn't snag Ward, and most of us at the time were aghast at the thought of losing Wood as an uncontracted player - some even suggested that Wood might be a bigger loss than Ward.

We should have offered him up then. :)

[Nuggety Back Pocket]

Wood is a good type of player because he is physical and looks good when he is running up the field. The problem is that his possession count isn't great and as I mentioned earlier in the year I think Howard is a slightly better option when you compare the stats.
Wood may very well improve but I'm not convinced he is better than than Goodes or Howard on what we have seen so far.

I have thought for some time that Wood appeals more as a winger given his pace which we lack over the ground. Wood has certain nervous traits in defence where he can be risky at times. His best is very good but Wood needs to become a more consistent performer.

[LostDoggy]

What are people's opinions of playing rookie-listed players, especially in our position, before potential delistment.

I'm all for performance warranting selection, however before the end of the season, especially in our current level of develpoment, i;d like to see what Redpath and Greenwood offer. Even if it's just for one game.

* Mulligan (rookie, then primary list) was given a number of games when we were in much stronger position and i don't think he offered anything, at any level, during his whole time at WB.

I'd just hate to see those two listed above delisted at the end of the season without knowing anythign of what they offered at a higher level. Greenwood has been injured somewhat, but Redpath has been tried in defensive positions at VFL level.

[ledge]

I am more optimistic I think finals in two years, with two drafts to go and our young guns doing two more preseasons I believe we will jump more than a lot of you think

[Dancin' Douggy]

I would play Grant for the rest of the year.
Some talented players languish in the seconds, but when thrust into the heat of battle, suddenly find that extra gear.
They realise they belong at the top level.

Throwing grant away now would be like crushing a ferrari without checking the oil and transmission fluid.

Maybe he is no good, but we're going nowhere this year..so if he plays badly, we haven't risked anything and at least we know we tried as best we could.

If he plays well..... he's got some currency as trade bait.......or he's good enough to keep.

[Bulldog Joe]

I would play Grant for the rest of the year.
Some players languish in the seconds but when thrust into the heat of battle suddenly find that gear.they realise they belong there.
throwing grant away now would be like crushing a ferrari without checking the oil and transmission fluid.

Maybe he is no good but we're going nowhere this year if he plays badly at least we know we tried.

If he plays well..... he's got some currency as trade bait.......or he's good enough to keep.

I see so many posts calling for Grant to be gifted games and I just don't understand why.

Let him demand a game through performance. He has had plenty of chances and been found wanting too often.

[Dancin' Douggy]

The point is this.
It's not gifting him games.
It's throwing him in the deep end and seeing if he can swim or not.
He hasn't "earnt" senior selection that's true. But he is no longer a long term project.
we are sifting through the wreckage of our list as we start the rebuild.
We need to find out right now if we wasted that No 5 pick or not.

[Bulldog Joe]

The point is this.
It's not gifting him games.
It's throwing him in the deep end and seeing if he can swim or not.
He hasn't "earnt" senior selection that's true. But he is no longer a long term project.
we are sifting through the wreckage of our list as we start the rebuild.
We need to find out right now if we wasted that No 5 pick or not.

He has been in the deep end and needed resuscitation after the 2010 final series.

Despite attempts at life support through 2011 he has not shown any vital signs and he is likely to have his AFL career pronounced dead around the end of September.

Any miracle to preserve the life will need to come from his own actions.

[Remi Moses]

They're not going to gift a bloke games who just floats through games.
Grant's cooked

[Remi Moses]

I am more optimistic I think finals in two years, with two drafts to go and our young guns doing two more preseasons I believe we will jump more than a lot of you think

I reckon 3 to 4 years before we can play finals.
Hope I'm wrong .
Just gotta get the draft picks right

[Remi Moses]

I've got 4 definitely
Vez , Grant, Gia, and Crossy

[LostDoggy]

The point is this.
It's not gifting him games.
It's throwing him in the deep end and seeing if he can swim or not.
He hasn't "earnt" senior selection that's true. But he is no longer a long term project.
we are sifting through the wreckage of our list as we start the rebuild.
We need to find out right now if we wasted that No 5 pick or not.

Have a look at Peter Germans assessment of Grant v Northern Blues. ".....(yada yada)..there are still periods where he could add more to the team etc" paraphrasing. Peter said it better. The pick was burned and the swim I still want to see is that swim across to Willy. Preferably mid-winter.

[Dancin' Douggy]

He has been in the deep end and needed resuscitation after the 2010 final series.

Despite attempts at life support through 2011 he has not shown any vital signs and he is likely to have his AFL career pronounced dead around the end of September.

Any miracle to preserve the life will need to come from his own actions.

I guess I am clutching at straws.
Just a shame to see that potential just go down the gurgler.

[G-Mo77]

I guess I am clutching at straws.
Just a shame to see that potential just go down the gurgler.

He won't be the only one with a huge amount of talent to not make it at AFL level. Talent will get you there but it takes more than that to keep you there.

[Greystache]

He won't be the only one with a huge amount of talent to not make it at AFL level. Talent will get you there but it takes more than that to keep you there.

Exactly. Talented juniors can dominate by being more talented than the other kids, but when they step up to AFL level where everyone is talented many of them can't/won't adjust and don't make it. There's a reason why more than half the kids drafted each year don't make it at AFL level.

[Bulldog Joe]

He won't be the only one with a huge amount of talent to not make it at AFL level. Talent will get you there but it takes more than that to keep you there.

The world has unfulfilled talent in every field of endeavour.

Talent is no substitute for hard work and perserverance.

[Rocco Jones]

Said it last year, we just have to cut guys we know are not going to make it and not be scared off by it being too large a number. My simple rule is if they were a state league player, would we be interested?

'Retirements'- Cross and Gia. Thought Gia was 0% to go on but he has been good lately. I still would have him retire though. Think he would give us more value off the field than on it if he wants to stay at the club.

Delistings- Grant, Vez, Tutt, Pearce, Howard and Marko.

Rookie delistings- Greenwood, Austin and Redpath

Free agency- Cooney and Addison if they want to go.

8-10 picks in ND/PSD depending on free agents and 3 RD picks.

[FrediKanoute]

Said it last year, we just have to cut guys we know are not going to make it and not be scared off by it being too large a number. My simple rule is if they were a state league player, would we be interested?

'Retirements'- Cross and Gia. Thought Gia was 0% to go on but he has been good lately. I still would have him retire though. Think he would give us more value off the field than on it if he wants to stay at the club.

Delistings- Grant, Vez, Tutt, Pearce, Howard and Marko.

Rookie delistings- Greenwood, Austin and Redpath

Free agency- Cooney and Addison if they want to go.

8-10 picks in ND/PSD depending on free agents and 3 RD picks.

I can't see us turning over a 3rd of our list so I think at least 2 will stay. I think it is likely that of Gia, Cooney, Addison will be retained and possibly Marko/Howard. Personally though I agree, cut deep and be ruthless.

[Rocco Jones]

I can't see us turning over a 3rd of our list so I think at least 2 will stay. I think it is likely that of Gia, Cooney, Addison will be retained and possibly Marko/Howard. Personally though I agree, cut deep and be ruthless.

More like a quarter of our list but I do see your point. I really don't like having to chop so many but it beats holding onto guys who won't make it.

If Cooney wants to stay and Addison doesn't get free agency offers, I'd keep both.

[bulldogtragic]

I can't see us turning over a 3rd of our list so I think at least 2 will stay. I think it is likely that of Gia, Cooney, Addison will be retained and possibly Marko/Howard. Personally though I agree, cut deep and be ruthless.
Comes down to risk/reward. Take Marko, we delist him for an unknown kid with pick 100. We may get a Dahl or JJ, we may not. If we don't, how much will not having Marko effect us. Simples.

[Remi Moses]

Personally don't think we can.
But just look what Port have done from being virtually non competitive to finals.

[LostDoggy]

Went through our list after the game on Saturday. Its only my opinion, but I can only find 19 AFL caliber players on it and that includes the top 5 from last years draft. We have massive list issues and are years away from finals even if Captain Blood jumps back up and coaches us. Every resource we have available needs to go into list management and recruiting policy at the moment. If we cut as deep as we need to we will have 10 picks at about 100. Just need to slowly churn the list and try to eek some extra time out of the older guys. We will need a priority pick either this year or next to get anywhere near finals in 4-5 years.

[LostDoggy]

Totally agree Superdog.

[LostDoggy]

The list must cut deepish - angled towards those that are older and have little upside over the next two-three years and those that are recycled and proven to not be up to grade:

Of the senior players:

- Gia (not cut, but retired)
- Cross (per Gia)
- Cooney (he either get played full time in the forward line or he's of little use)*
- Markovic (Too many deficiencies for AFL level)
- Grant (cut our losses)
- Veszpremi (Too many deficiencies for AFL level)

Look to trade for best pick deals possible
- Howard
- Addison
- Williams

Rookie delisting:

- Austin (yes he's a rookie but it’s a spot taken up with no upside, per Markovic)
- Goodes (Too many deficiencies for AFL level, coupled with his age)
- Greenwood (Outnumbered in his type of positional ability currently)

Offer Redpath and Jong another year on the rookie lists (three years can be offered)


I’d be loathe to cut into the draft picks from 2009 (apart from possible Howard trade) to now due to the VFL side coming in and having greater control over match day, hence players like Pearce and Tutt stay on.

Therefore, that’s 5 spots (six if Cooney goes) on the primary list available. If at least one of the basic trade options goes that’ll be 6 spots minimum, and 3-4 rookie spots.

[w3design]

I would play Grant for the rest of the year.
Some talented players languish in the seconds, but when thrust into the heat of battle, suddenly find that extra gear.
They realise they belong at the top level.

Throwing grant away now would be like crushing a ferrari without checking the oil and transmission fluid.

Maybe he is no good, but we're going nowhere this year..so if he plays badly, we haven't risked anything and at least we know we tried as best we could.

If he plays well..... he's got some currency as trade bait.......or he's good enough to keep.

Sorry Douggy, if a guy can't swim in a heated indoor pool full of lemonade, he sure as hell won't do any better in rough surf. And it is no worse throwing out a Ferrari than a VW Beetle, if it is post a train wreck.
Give you Grant has all the talent in the world, but seems to prefer to come off the ground not requiring a shower. I can't see him ever becoming a fixture under B Mac, as he simply does not produce the requisite non negotiables. Still spends too much time trying to do the spectacular, and too damn little just going in and getting the ball.
Playing him at seniors only risks destroying any potential trade value he might still possibly have at years end.

For mine....
Delist : Austin, Vez., Redpath, and possibly Marko.... Worry being poor depth of talls, defenders particularly.

Retire : Gia.....to Footscray VFL as assistant coach.
Possibly: Crossy ... as above as captain of team.

Trade if we can find interested purchasers..... Grant and Howard. If not transfer to delist group. Would be prepared to field offers for Tutt if some one comes sniffing, but am against hanging players out there if there is any possibility we might keep them on our list.
Certainly would not like to see Tutt traded for a set of steak knives, given our chronic lack of foot speed.
The fact that Greenwood seems to be on most people's dump list bemuses me a little. But then it seems anyone who has not played regularly, despite injury being the reason, appears to automatically jump into such contention. Greenwood is small and light framed, but whenever he get a consistent run of games, he starts to become quite an effective player. My biggest concern with him is that like Wood, Williams and Higgins, he might be injured too often. Not sure we can afford to have 4 players who are frequently unavailable on the list at the same time, given list limitations.

For mine we want : A gun mid with pace, strength and exquisite kicking skills, who kicks goals [ Dangerfield type].
: A smash and crash BBBH type fast leading goal kicking forward.
: 2 backmen. A Gilbee type, who can both defend and kick beautifully, and another tall key defender to give us depth, as Moz is not going to be around forever sadly.